Ki (chi) power, whats the deal?
Thomas Mitchell
wondering what the validity of Chi, or Ki power is. One of my
instructors says it is just there to help you build you stomach muscles
and the people who claim to have "super powers" are just magicians. I
think so, too, but am still unsure. I have trained at least a little (a
few are VERY little) in the following arts: Ninjutsu (out of books :),
Gracie Ju Juitsu (cool stuff), Hapkido (ow, my elbow:), Tai Chi Cuan
(just forms), boxing, kick boxing, and my fave: Tang Soo Do. I have yet
to find one of these that has the developement of Chi as a major focus,
or even attempts it. If it is so great, why would all M.A. styles not
try to incorporate it. I have read, and heard that styles such as Kung
Fu try to develope Chi, but I don't care much for them. I think they are
kinda fake because I went to a tourney and watched all the Kung Fu guys
spar and it looked much more like kick boxing than their forms and
what they act like in practice... Oh well, I admit I have limited
experience and should not pass judgment on them... but I am 15, so I am
ALWAYS right, and an expert in EVERYTHING :). Anyway, I digress.... what
do ya'll think about Chi "power"?
Thomas Mitchell
jtnichol
to the very complex concept of energy in all its forms.
2. Qi is not mystical nor spiritual. The Chinese have another word for
spirit. Well developed and controlled qi can raise the spirit and lead
to 'enlightenment' (this link leads to confusion for some), but qi is not
spirit.
3. Qi is natural, and everyone already has it. We need training in some
cases, especially in physical applications, because we do not
instinctively know how to stand and move in the most natural manner.
4. Taijiquan and other internal arts are especially good for developing
internal energy. External arts develop external energy or the use of muscle
power in the usual sense.
5. Applications of qi are properly called jing in Chinese, but in order
to confuse things, qi is often used for jing.
6. Anything that appears to be supernatural in regard to qi is either a
trick, and therefore actually natural, or very unhealthy for the
practitioner.
Jim Nichols
QUARK
>From: tho...@iadfw.net (Thomas Mitchell)
>Subject: Ki (chi) power, whats the deal?
>Date: 13 Jul 1995 22:52:11 GMT
>Thomas Mitchell
Well, Tommie, I think you're too young to play on computers for any great
length of time. Nice post, and we'll see ya in the arcades sometime.
Q.
Ectalk
>If this is like a major topic that always comes up, forgive me. I am
>wondering what the validity of Chi, or Ki power is. One of my
>instructors says it is just there to help you build you stomach muscles
>and the people who claim to have "super powers" are just magicians. I
>think so, too, but am still unsure. I have trained at least a little (a
>few are VERY little) in the following arts: Ninjutsu (out of books :),
>Gracie Ju Juitsu (cool stuff), Hapkido (ow, my elbow:), Tai Chi Cuan
>(just forms), boxing, kick boxing, and my fave: Tang Soo Do. I have yet
>to find one of these that has the developement of Chi as a major focus,
>or even attempts it. If it is so great, why would all M.A. styles not
>try to incorporate it. I have read, and heard that styles such as Kung
>Fu try to develope Chi, but I don't care much for them. I think they are
>kinda fake because I went to a tourney and watched all the Kung Fu guys
>spar and it looked much more like kick boxing than their forms and
>what they act like in practice... Oh well, I admit I have limited
>experience and should not pass judgment on them... but I am 15, so I am
>ALWAYS right, and an expert in EVERYTHING :). Anyway, I digress.... what
>do ya'll think about Chi "power"?
Everything has Chi just as everthing come from nothingness. We are not
aware of Chi because it is covered by our ego. People with a big ego will
not understand the concept of chi,neverless chi exist in their body. Chi
is not something you could understand by our logical mind, that is why
old tradition martial art master don,t talk about it and let the student
discover for him/herself. Most of the classic Kata are design for one to
lose one's ego. If one practice correctly, it will lead to the
understanding of Ki. Now a day, due to cheap M.A. movies, Martial art is
turned into a gymastic movement or punch and kick fight. Modern kata are
designed for looks and winning trophy. That is the reason you don't see
any more than punch and kick in a fighting tournment. If you find a true
martial artist among 1000 kung fu practioners, consider yourself very
lucky. True master has no ego, they train to understand about life and
don't care about being famous. They just mind their own business and not
concern of being call "coward".
To misinterprete the concept of Ki is very dangerous to other and
yourself. It is like religions that has cause so much war in the past.
That is one of reasons the concepts of Ki is not discussed by masters for
many years.
Ectalk
Frank James
> If this is like a major topic that always comes up, forgive me. I am
> wondering what the validity of Chi, or Ki power is.
None.
To quote Barnum :
"There's a sucker born every minute"
--
Frank James
ay...@freenet.carleton.ca
phil
<Pine.HPP.3.91.95071...@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu>, jtnichol
<jtni...@indiana.edu> wrote:
Snip concerning stuff about ki I understand.
>
> 6. Anything that appears to be supernatural in regard to qi is either a
> trick, and therefore actually natural, or very unhealthy for the
> practitioner.
?????
I was always taught it was intent. If you test rooting ability to
check if your doing it correctly or more to the point what you aren't
doing correctly, then you are doing a good thing for a good reason
that is supernatural ( more or less ) and that while we shouldn't play
with ki, as long as it is for a legitimate reason then it isn't bad for
you.
If you do play and senselessly use ki and try supernatural things
then you are doing things that can stagnate your ki, cause it to
weaken, and you are playing with fire.
Question: are there any reasons for not playing with ki I don't know
of? Specifically how is it unhealthy?
>
> Jim Nichols
Thanks for your time,
-phil
philip briaca
bra...@lucy.merrimack.edu
DJ Edwards
writes:
>
>If this is like a major topic that always comes up, forgive me. I am
>Thomas Mitchell
>
Hi, Thomas. Chi is not a magical force. It is the life force in
everyone's body. It is not magical or special, it is just there. Many
techniques have been developed to bring out the chi to its full health
benefits. I would suggest that you read any of the books by Mantak or
Maneewan Chia for a good, no-nonsense, no BS explanation of chi. As
far as what it can do for you in the martial arts, a full understanding
of what chi (life force, energy) is will go a long way in explaining
what it can do for you as a martial artist. Peace. DJ
Thomas Mitchell
QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far says...
>
>In article <3u482r$e...@news.iadfw.net> tho...@iadfw.net (Thomas
>>From: tho...@iadfw.net (Thomas Mitchell)
>>Subject: Ki (chi) power, whats the deal?
>>Date: 13 Jul 1995 22:52:11 GMT
>
>
>
great
>length of time. Nice post, and we'll see ya in the arcades sometime.
>
>Q.
>
comical genious on here :) What makes you think you have any more right
to be on here than I do? I am just a qualified to be here as you, maybe
more so. <end of tirade vs. q> So there!!! Yea, thats it... Glad you
liked my post. Would you like to answer it or point out some more
intriguing thoughts about how I should get off the computer and play in
the arcade with all the other good little "children"?
Thomas Mitchell
>
Loren B. Bentley
> If this is like a major topic that always comes up, forgive me. I am
> wondering what the validity of Chi, or Ki power is. One of my
> instructors says it is just there to help you build you stomach muscles
> and the people who claim to have "super powers" are just magicians. I
> think so, too, but am still unsure. I have trained at least a little (a
> few are VERY little) in the following arts: Ninjutsu (out of books :),
> Gracie Ju Juitsu (cool stuff), Hapkido (ow, my elbow:), Tai Chi Cuan
> (just forms), boxing, kick boxing, and my fave: Tang Soo Do. I have yet
> to find one of these that has the developement of Chi as a major focus,
> or even attempts it. If it is so great, why would all M.A. styles not
> try to incorporate it. I have read, and heard that styles such as Kung
> Fu try to develope Chi, but I don't care much for them. I think they are
> kinda fake because I went to a tourney and watched all the Kung Fu guys
> spar and it looked much more like kick boxing than their forms and
> what they act like in practice... Oh well, I admit I have limited
> experience and should not pass judgment on them... but I am 15, so I am
> ALWAYS right, and an expert in EVERYTHING :). Anyway, I digress.... what
> do ya'll think about Chi "power"?
>
> Thomas Mitchell
>
>
Ki, Thomas, is a very real power. This I know to be true. How I *know*
it to be true is beyond me, but I know it is true./
One such martial art, that I know of, tries to develop ki. That art is
judo. I know this because my sensei talks about it all the time. He
also demonstrates it.
L. B. Bentley, III
phil
Mitchell) wrote:
> If this is like a major topic that always comes up, forgive me. I am
> wondering what the validity of Chi, or Ki power is. One of my
> instructors says it is just there to help you build you stomach muscles
> and the people who claim to have "super powers" are just magicians.
It is a bit more than that, you can hit harder with it, gain more
balance, etc. plus a couple dozen other things.
If you got the warmth at the point an inch or so below your navel,
try to drop it into the ground to get more balance, or extend it
out your strikes ( you need to relax to do this ).
> I
> think so, too, but am still unsure. I have trained at least a little (a
> few are VERY little) in the following arts: Ninjutsu (out of books :),
> Gracie Ju Juitsu (cool stuff), Hapkido (ow, my elbow:), Tai Chi Cuan
> (just forms), boxing, kick boxing, and my fave: Tang Soo Do. I have yet
> to find one of these that has the developement of Chi as a major focus,
> or even attempts it. If it is so great, why would all M.A. styles not
> try to incorporate it.
Most have includeing some of the above arts. Ninjitsu, tai chi chaun
both involve a lot of ki. Ki is five elemental, ( elements in
ninjitsu :) and is used for rooting ( something you should do while
practicing tai chi chaun ).
There is ki in many okinawin styles, some styles of aikido, jujitsu,
and a good number of the chinese systems, and some of the kempo
systems.
If you look at those exercises created way back many systems
claim to come from ( the exercises created by the monk Bodhidharma )
then they should historically speaking be based on ki, dito
for the origins of pressurepoint arts which includes most of
the hard style arts.
> I have read, and heard that styles such as Kung
> Fu try to develope Chi, but I don't care much for them. I think they are
> kinda fake because I went to a tourney and watched all the Kung Fu guys
> spar and it looked much more like kick boxing than their forms and
> what they act like in practice... Oh well, I admit I have limited
> experience and should not pass judgment on them... but I am 15, so I am
> ALWAYS right, and an expert in EVERYTHING :). Anyway, I digress.... what
> do ya'll think about Chi "power"?
>
> Thomas Mitchell
-phil
philip braica
bra...@lucy.merrimack.edu
Raden Chekel Wanengpati
As I understand it....
Ki is just the energy that flows through our nerve system. It is usually undeveloped because the energy is not strong, just the signals from our senses; touch, smell etc. The energy is just enough to reach the brain for the brain to interpret as sensation. As the energy flows from the nerve endings which is all over the body, to the brain, that energy can also move the other way round, from the brain to the nerve endings. This needs practice to do and control; hence the various exercise to develop the chi.
When it is developed, we can control how much energy goes where in our body. It would then be just reflex; our intention makes it so (that is why I guess it is also classified as metaphysics; the influence of intention cannot be quantified/measured). For example, if we want our punch to be 100 pounds, the brain would give just the correct amount of energy to our hand for that effect, how it is done cannot be described, just the workings of our incredible brain.
We can also intend what effect that energy would give. For example, if I concentrate the chi (energy) to my palms and intend it to be painful, another person who touches my palm would feel pain from the energy that is transmitted from my nerve endings to his, if I wanted it to feel hot, he will feel hot too. It is just the transmission of my energy from my nerve endings to his. If I want it to be explosive, if I slap my palm to his chest, the energy would push him backwards to the wall. That can also expla
in how a grandmaster could break 10-15 bricks standing together just by slapping the first brick on the side.
This implies that chi can only be applied to another person/object with touch. If anybody says that he can hurt someone from a distance or break a brick from a distance, that is not chi, it will definitely be genies (these things exist...).
My 0.2 dime...
Raden Chekel Wanengpati
Sorry, I didn't conclude my arguments...
Back to the original questions...
Does chi exists? yes....
Does it work? yes....
Does it have limitations? yes...have to touch...
Why is it so mysterious? because the energy flow in our nervous system usually moves one way...training is needed to control and intensify it...
Can I develop it in short order? No...years are needed under expert guide. Or you can damage yourself.
Thank you
QUARK
>From: ecta...@deepcove.com (Ectalk)
>Subject: Re: Ki (chi) power, whats the deal?
>Date: 15 Jul 1995 07:27:49 -0700
>tho...@iadfw.net (Thomas Mitchell) writes:
>>If this is like a major topic that always comes up, forgive me. I am
>>wondering what the validity of Chi, or Ki power is. One of my
>>instructors says it is just there to help you build you stomach muscles
>>and the people who claim to have "super powers" are just magicians. I
>>think so, too, but am still unsure. I have trained at least a little (a
>>few are VERY little) in the following arts: Ninjutsu (out of books :),
>>Gracie Ju Juitsu (cool stuff), Hapkido (ow, my elbow:), Tai Chi Cuan
>>(just forms), boxing, kick boxing, and my fave: Tang Soo Do. I have yet
>>to find one of these that has the developement of Chi as a major focus,
>>or even attempts it. If it is so great, why would all M.A. styles not
>>try to incorporate it. I have read, and heard that styles such as Kung
>>Fu try to develope Chi, but I don't care much for them. I think they are
>>kinda fake because I went to a tourney and watched all the Kung Fu guys
>>spar and it looked much more like kick boxing than their forms and
>>what they act like in practice... Oh well, I admit I have limited
>>experience and should not pass judgment on them... but I am 15, so I am
>>ALWAYS right, and an expert in EVERYTHING :). Anyway, I digress.... what
>>do ya'll think about Chi "power"?
>Everything has Chi just as everthing come from nothingness. We are not
>aware of Chi because it is covered by our ego. People with a big ego will
>not understand the concept of chi,neverless chi exist in their body. Chi
>is not something you could understand by our logical mind, that is why
>old tradition martial art master don,t talk about it and let the student
>discover for him/herself. Most of the classic Kata are design for one to
>lose one's ego. If one practice correctly, it will lead to the
>understanding of Ki. Now a day, due to cheap M.A. movies, Martial art is
>turned into a gymastic movement or punch and kick fight. Modern kata are
>designed for looks and winning trophy. That is the reason you don't see
>any more than punch and kick in a fighting tournment. If you find a true
>martial artist among 1000 kung fu practioners, consider yourself very
>lucky. True master has no ego, they train to understand about life and
>don't care about being famous. They just mind their own business and not
>concern of being call "coward".
>To misinterprete the concept of Ki is very dangerous to other and
>yourself. It is like religions that has cause so much war in the past.
>That is one of reasons the concepts of Ki is not discussed by masters for
>many years.
>Ectalk
Yegads. Put these two posts back-to-back and we have the makings of
Karate Kid, part IV. Where's Ralph Maccio (1st post) and Pat Morita (2nd
post) when ya need 'em?
Q.
Michael Solomowitz
: As I understand it....
: Ki is just the energy that flows through our nerve system. It is usually undeveloped because the energy is not strong, just the signals from our senses; touch, smell etc. The energy is just enough to reach the brain for the brain to interpret as sensati
on. As the energy flows from the nerve endings which is all over the body, to the brain, that energy can also move the other way round, from the brain to the nerve endings. This needs practice to do and control; hence the various exercise to develop th
: When it is developed, we can control how much energy goes where in our body. It would then be just reflex; our intention makes it so (that is why I guess it is also classified as metaphysics; the influence of intention cannot be quantified/measured). Fo
r example, if we want our punch to be 100 pounds, the brain would give just the correct amount of energy to our hand for that effect, how it is done cannot be described, just the workings of our incredible brain.
: We can also intend what effect that energy would give. For example, if I concentrate the chi (energy) to my palms and intend it to be painful, another person who touches my palm would feel pain from the energy that is transmitted from my nerve endings t
o his, if I wanted it to feel hot, he will feel hot too. It is just the transmission of my energy from my nerve endings to his. If I want it to be explosive, if I slap my palm to his chest, the energy would push him backwards to the wall. That can also
: in how a grandmaster could break 10-15 bricks standing together just by slapping the first brick on the side.
: This implies that chi can only be applied to another person/object with touch. If anybody says that he can hurt someone from a distance or break a brick from a distance, that is not chi, it will definitely be genies (these things exist...).
Gentlemen, what type of chi are we discussing here? WATER CHI is the
life force within ourselves that we obtain from our parents. This form
of chi is inherent in ALL living things, it is the life force. FIRE CHI
is the energy that is gained from the combination of one's food and air,
the life energy of metabolism. There are sub-categories of Fire Chi as
they pertain to specific functions of our bodies...related to the Chen,
physical energy (strength), and to the Sheh, spiritual force. Certain
sub-groups are stored in the chakras and travel through and between them
such as the Kundalini energy. Certain sub-groups travel along the
acupuncture meridians such a prana energy. Fire Chi that is related to
Chen and Sheh is thought to be produced in the Tan Tien or Lower Burner
located 2 inches below the navel, while other forms come from the Upper
Burner located in the chest region. Internal forms such as Chi Kung and
Tai Chi work at raising, i.e. cause the increase in production, and flow
of Fire Chi through the meridians and the chakras. NOTE: Chi is
generally experienced as heat.
*The Power of Chi*, Michael Page
*Cultivating the Chi. The Secrets of Energy and Vitality*, Stuart Alve Olsen
*The Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan. Way to Rejuvenation*., Jou, Tsung Hwa
QUARK
>From: mo...@fec2.fec.gov
>Subject: RE: Ki (chi) power, whats the deal?
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:28:11 GMT
>Young man,
> I was going to stay out of the KI, CHI debates because there
> seem to be a lot of TRUE BELIEVERS in this area, that is, they
> believe without rational thought or a minimum of proof in a
> supposed metaphysical process. However, a poster was very rude
> to you with no reason, therefore I will give you my opinions
> resulting from a lot of reading and questioning on the subject.
(True enough, there are a lot of "true believers" who "believe without
rational thought" on any subject. However, you missed another category:
those who gain personal experience through good teaching and a lot of
of practice but don't bother much with RMA posts on the subject.
Your opinions? Based on "a lot of reading and questioning on the subject"?
This is like a sex counselor talking about "The Joy of Sex" from the
background of "a lot of reading and questioning on the subject"...
oooo-kaayyyy.)
> In summary, if someone tries to pitch KI/CHI to you keep a hand
> on your wallet and watch until you are well away from them.
(Oddly enough, this is right. But not because your post did anything in this
regard, it's because many people talking about it are babbling sheer
nonsense. Say ouch, because I'm including you.)
One exception, some honest people use the term for breathing
> exercises, these breathing exercises have uses in MA and trumpet
> (really helps with breath control).
(Yeah. But ki/ch'i as a subject cannot be reduced to simply breathing
exercises. Just like playing a trumpet has a little more involved than how
good your breath control is.)
> S.H. Moore
>FIRST ITS KI, THEN CRYSTALS THEN ASTROLOGY THEN CUSTODIAL CARE
(Unfortunately, you're right. And, for a more appropriate analogy here,
first it's ignorance, then opinions, then wonderful denouncements off
the top of the head.)
>P.S. Read a book: "FLIMFLAM" by Randi, he explains how a lot of these sorts
> of things work and are worked on the unsuspecting.
(I have. This book no more explains "how these sorts of things work" than
Bill Clinton explains what a good diet is. The Amazing Randi is (was) a good
magician, and writes entertainingly. "Psychics" beware. As for his martial
arts knowledge, I'd say he makes a good magician.)
mo...@fec2.fec.gov
Young man,
I was going to stay out of the KI, CHI debates because there
seem to be a lot of TRUE BELIEVERS in this area, that is, they
believe without rational thought or a minimum of proof in a
supposed metaphysical process. However, a poster was very rude
to you with no reason, therefore I will give you my opinions
resulting from a lot of reading and questioning on the subject.
the proponents of KI/CHI tend to fall into three categories:
1. Basic con man, a person who knows the "trick" but uses it to
"turn a mark", i.e., get money or respect from the unthinking.
An example: I noted several people posting about an individual
who could catch bullets using his CHI. This is a VERY old magic
trick, the posters indicated that glass was broken to "prove"
that the bullet had been fired, this is the easy way, the hard
way is to make a hole appear in paper or cloth. Putting it
another way, this con man did not respect the marks enough to put
in any effort into the trick.
2. The skeptical believer, this person believes himself to be
rational, that is; some of what is presented is fake or over
stated but what he believes is "real". Another recent example:
someone mentioned that their "one inch punch" wasn't all that
good -- another magic trick, however the practitioner really does
not realize that making the trick work does not depend on CHI but
on doing the trick right. See "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" it
has a lot about "flow" and this and that but if you read the text
and look at the pictures you can have an OK punch with a little
practice.
3. TRUE BELIEVERS True believers are worthless to try to
educate (they are fun to bait) because of the basic process of
this type of belief; the believer needs no real proof. Proof for
a real believer can be as simple as "I got a feeling of power in
my hand". Yet another example: an individual stated "you cannot
prove that it (chi) does not exist". This is the basic statement
of a true believer, simply because a negative cannot be proven.
One one can prove that all existence did not come into being
because my uncle Fred was in a bad mood last week.
In summary, if someone tries to pitch KI/CHI to you keep a hand
on your wallet and watch until you are well away from them.
One exception, some honest people use the term for breathing
exercises, these breathing exercises have uses in MA and trumpet
(really helps with breath control).
S.H. Moore
FIRST ITS KI, THEN CRYSTALS THEN ASTROLOGY THEN CUSTODIAL CARE
DJ Edwards
Whoa, S.H. Moore----perhaps you have been fed a lot of misconceptions
about the concept of chi, however, the study of life force and life
energy used to benefit one's health, etc. is a legit technique. Of
course, the life force (the magnetic force that binds our cells
together) exists and this is the true chi. I must agree with you,
however, that its application to the martial arts is sadly and grossly
mis-used and one should be careful about from whom one undertakes the
learning of this. I always say if they make wild claims about making
you do stuff "just like in the movies" run don't walk away from this
kind of crap. However, the use of ch'i gung for health purposes, under
a legit instructor, has done benefits for me as a martial artist
stricken with multiple sclerosis---know thy teacher!
Lloyd Vance
A friend of mine has a theory on Spontaneous Human Combustion and latent
chi activity.
The Great Cornholio
>Raden Chekel Wanengpati (moch...@tungsten.engin.umich.edu) wrote:
>
>: As I understand it....
>
words....words....
> Gentlemen, what type of chi are we discussing here? WATER CHI is the
>life force within ourselves that we obtain from our parents. This form
>of chi is inherent in ALL living things, it is the life force. FIRE CHI
>is the energy that is gained from the combination of one's food and air,
>the life energy of metabolism. There are sub-categories of Fire Chi as
>they pertain to specific functions of our bodies...related to the Chen,
>physical energy (strength), and to the Sheh, spiritual force. Certain
>sub-groups are stored in the chakras and travel through and between them
>such as the Kundalini energy. Certain sub-groups travel along the
>acupuncture meridians such a prana energy. Fire Chi that is related to
>Chen and Sheh is thought to be produced in the Tan Tien or Lower Burner
>located 2 inches below the navel, while other forms come from the Upper
>Burner located in the chest region. Internal forms such as Chi Kung and
>Tai Chi work at raising, i.e. cause the increase in production, and flow
>of Fire Chi through the meridians and the chakras. NOTE: Chi is
>generally experienced as heat.
>
>*The Power of Chi*, Michael Page
>*Cultivating the Chi. The Secrets of Energy and Vitality*, Stuart Alve Olsen
>*The Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan. Way to Rejuvenation*., Jou, Tsung Hwa
From the original post, I believe Thomas Mitchell wanted to get a basic
idea of what chi is. He did not even yet believe it exists. So, I
explained it in simple terms with examples so that it can be visualized.
I believe also that he wanted to understand it as pertains to fighting,
hence my examples too. That's why I didn't use terms like 'life force',
'fire chi' etc., kundalini/prana, chakra and meridians. This would
befuddle even beginners, not to talk about skeptics. Please correct me if
I'm wrong Thomas...
Thank you.
Thomas Mitchell
says...
now. I won't have the opportunity to use it for a while at least. My
newsreader has not down loaded the post you responded to, but I skimmed
it before I read your response. I recognized some of the stuff from a
few chapters I had read in various books. I figure I will just listen to
all of what you all have to say, go explore it later, and come to my own
conclusions in the end. Thanks everyone for the good responses (except
Q)
Thomas Mitchell
>
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>
notme
> Young man,
> I was going to stay out of the KI, CHI debates because there
> seem to be a lot of TRUE BELIEVERS in this area, that is, they
> believe without rational thought or a minimum of proof in a
> supposed metaphysical process. However, a poster was very rude
> to you with no reason, therefore I will give you my opinions
> resulting from a lot of reading and questioning on the subject.
>
> the proponents of KI/CHI tend to fall into three categories:
>
Snip, some might find it insulting, others humorous, but I'll snip it.
> In summary, if someone tries to pitch KI/CHI to you keep a hand
> on your wallet and watch until you are well away from them.
>
> One exception, some honest people use the term for breathing
> exercises, these breathing exercises have uses in MA and trumpet
> (really helps with breath control).
>
> S.H. Moore
> FIRST ITS KI, THEN CRYSTALS THEN ASTROLOGY THEN CUSTODIAL CARE
>
>
> P.S. Read a book: "FLIMFLAM" by Randi, he explains how a lot of these sorts
> of things work and are worked on the unsuspecting.
I'll give a try at a couple cool explinations.
( black box theory )
Ki is magic.
It is no different than a good magic trick you can buy at your
local professional magic shop.
Except you never get to know how the trick really works,
and the effect is a huge amount of martial arts abilities and skill.
( scientific )
When people project ki they do emit a traceable pattered stream
of infrared radiation. This is simply well documented, ask me and
I'll give the references ( there are a few I know of )
The patterns of pulses match pulses in practioners EKG ( brain waves? )
and these patterns are later generated in target subjects body and
brain.
CAT scans show people who practice ki do have different scans that
are distinctive.
I can give documentation for these ( claims )
( practicle )
oh, and if you look at bruce lee's books closely, he worked ki.
also if you do a one inch punch with ki, you can leave a warm
spot on the oponent, or if your good, dissrupt bodily functions
and just drop someone.
Besides, reality is subjective. IF something always appears to
be real to all observers, no matter how anyone tests it or how
anyone use it and it is consistent, it doesn't matter if it is
real if you can use it to your advantage to make you a
better martial artist.
-phil
P.S. I'm a amature magician, BELIEVE ME, I've seen and done
things no stage prop can do, magic requires setup, not at an
instant on request, ie. you don't walk into a magic show and
ask a person to fly around the room, set fire to things, read minds,
do vanishing acts, and a half dozen specific effects any old time,
even the best magician doesn't have walking around stuff to do
every trick at an instant. Ki passes this test. Especially
when you can teach others to do it and other stuff at an instant.
Thus ki acts like a technology.
Andrew P. Holguin
order to develope "chi power"...consider Miyamoto Musashi, called Eldest
Son of the God of War.
Musashi is *still* considered the greatest swordsman AND warrior to ever
fog a mirror...one of his fundamental teachings is that mastery of one's
chosen Way *requires* self-instruction:
"It should be understood that without the assistance of a teacher many
roads become open to a practitioner, some on the correct path and some on
the incorrect path. It is not for everyone to be without guidance--only
a few, and they are exceptional, can make a journey to wisdom without a
teacher. You must have extraordinary passion, patience, and
self-discipline to make a journey alone. The goals must be understood,
difinitive, and no diversion can be acknowledged or permitted if you are
to attain enlightenment within the sphere of a chosen art......(clip)...
Also, there is no gaurantee that you will attain perfection. It must all
come from inside you without any preconceived notions on your part."
-quoted from "The Martial Artist's Book of Five Rings", interpretation
by Steve Kaufman, Hanshi - Dojo no Hebi.
...not trying to argue philosophy, just provoke thought for discussion.
Ki is one of the more important aspects of martial arts, and as a
community we should all share in developement of this concept and ability.
The Angelus (advocate of Tai Chi breathing control for better
typing skills =:-] )
mo...@fec2.fec.gov
-phil no...@noware.wouldn'tyouliketoknow.where? (notme)
Took exception to my response under this title which, summarized
was:
> In summary, if someone tries to pitch KI/CHI to you keep a hand
> on your wallet and watch until you are well away from them.
>
> One exception, some honest people use the term for breathing
> exercises, these breathing exercises have uses in MA and trumpet
> (really helps with breath control).
>
> S.H. Moore
> FIRST ITS KI, THEN CRYSTALS THEN ASTROLOGY THEN CUSTODIAL CARE
>
>
> P.S. Read a book: "FLIMFLAM" by Randi, he explains how a lot of these sorts
> of things work and are worked on the unsuspecting.
His response to the above was:
> I'll give a try at a couple cool explinations.
> ( black box theory )
> Ki is magic.
> It is no different than a good magic trick you can buy at your
> local professional magic shop.
> Except you never get to know how the trick really works,
> and the effect is a huge amount of martial arts abilities and skill.
SH Moore's response: I will ignore the magic part. But I been messing with
MA for the better part of 20 years but have never known anyone who
relied on KI to do their stuff. This includes individuals that
trained for 20+ years in Japan and individuals who had their mystical
bubbles popped in Okinawa.
-phil no...@noware.wouldn'tyouliketoknow.where? (notme)
> ( scientific )
> When people project ki they do emit a traceable pattered stream
> of infrared radiation. This is simply well documented, ask me and
> I'll give the references ( there are a few I know of )
> The patterns of pulses match pulses in practioners EKG ( brain waves? )
> and these patterns are later generated in target subjects body and
> brain.
> CAT scans show people who practice ki do have different scans that
> are distinctive.
> I can give documentation for these ( claims )
SH Moore's response: A traceable pattered (patterned?) stream of infrared
radiation? I take it you don't need your TV remote anymore.
Really, if you mean Kirlan "auras" or Kirlian photography that
"stuff" was debunked years ago. As for EKG similarities, big deal,
we all all human and EKG patterns will repeat. Now if you set up
two separate rooms, each with different stimuli and can get
patterns to match immediately then contact James Randi c/o
The Skeptical Inquirer. If you or anyone can prove this sort of mind
to mind link Randi will give you $10,000; if you fail he gets to
add your/their names to a growing list of con-artists and dupes
that he has built up over the years. (He has had this standing offer
for over 20+ years for ANY ONE paranormal feat of ANY kind. As of
1987 600 had tried and 600 had failed). As for CAT scans among KI
practitioners being distinctive, wellll, they are also distinctive
in some types of schizophrenia, some epileptics and some brain
damage cases.
-phil no...@noware.wouldn'tyouliketoknow.where? (notme)
> ( practicle )
> oh, and if you look at bruce lee's books closely, he worked ki.
> also if you do a one inch punch with ki, you can leave a warm
> spot on the oponent, or if your good, dissrupt bodily functions
> and just drop someone.
SH Moore's response: I said the book went on about "flow and this and that".
I simply meant that the one inch punch is a trick, and a easy
one to learn at that. As for warm spots and etc., its called
a bruise.
-phil no...@noware.wouldn'tyouliketoknow.where? (notme)
> Besides, reality is subjective. IF something always appears to
> be real to all observers, no matter how anyone tests it or how
> anyone use it and it is consistent, it doesn't matter if it is
> real if you can use it to your advantage to make you a
> better martial artist.
> -phil
SH Moore's response: This a a TRUE BELIEVER response, the entire point
of my original post was that Ki/Chi does not appear real to a
vast number of people, and it has not been scientifically tested and
submitted to peer review.
As for "...it doesn't matter if it is real if you can use it to
your advantage ..." this statement is an embrace of delusional.
It is the type of thinking that leads to physic surgery, healing
with crystals and other useless "feel good" misinformation.
-phil no...@noware.wouldn'tyouliketoknow.where? (notme)
> P.S. I'm a amature magician, BELIEVE ME, I've seen and done
> things no stage prop can do, magic requires setup, not at an
> instant on request, ie. you don't walk into a magic show and
> ask a person to fly around the room, set fire to things, read minds,
> do vanishing acts, and a half dozen specific effects any old time,
> even the best magician doesn't have walking around stuff to do
> every trick at an instant. Ki passes this test. Especially
> when you can teach others to do it and other stuff at an instant.
> Thus ki acts like a technology.
SH Moore's response: You seem to have the will to believe, if you had
a non-believer set up controlled experiments and keep accounting
records I believe your actual success rate would be much lower
than your perceived success rate. All people tend to remember
their successes and forget or down-play their failures.
Daniel Indyk
>
> Raden Chekel Wanengpati (moch...@tungsten.engin.umich.edu) wrote:
>
> : As I understand it....
>
> on. As the energy flows from the nerve endings which is all over the body, to the brain, that energy can also move the other way round, from the brain to the nerve endings. This needs practice to do and control; hence the various exercise to develop th
>
> : When it is developed, we can control how much energy goes where in our body. It would then be just reflex; our intention makes it so (that is why I guess it is also classified as metaphysics; the influence of intention cannot be quantified/measured). Fo
> r example, if we want our punch to be 100 pounds, the brain would give just the correct amount of energy to our hand for that effect, how it is done cannot be described, just the workings of our incredible brain.
>
> : We can also intend what effect that energy would give. For example, if I concentrate the chi (energy) to my palms and intend it to be painful, another person who touches my palm would feel pain from the energy that is transmitted from my nerve endings t
> o his, if I wanted it to feel hot, he will feel hot too. It is just the transmission of my energy from my nerve endings to his. If I want it to be explosive, if I slap my palm to his chest, the energy would push him backwards to the wall. That can also
>
> : in how a grandmaster could break 10-15 bricks standing together just by slapping the first brick on the side.
>
> : This implies that chi can only be applied to another person/object with touch. If anybody says that he can hurt someone from a distance or break a brick from a distance, that is not chi, it will definitely be genies (these things exist...).
>
> life force within ourselves that we obtain from our parents. This form
> of chi is inherent in ALL living things, it is the life force. FIRE CHI
> is the energy that is gained from the combination of one's food and air,
> the life energy of metabolism. There are sub-categories of Fire Chi as
> they pertain to specific functions of our bodies...related to the Chen,
> physical energy (strength), and to the Sheh, spiritual force. Certain
> sub-groups are stored in the chakras and travel through and between them
> such as the Kundalini energy. Certain sub-groups travel along the
> acupuncture meridians such a prana energy. Fire Chi that is related to
> Chen and Sheh is thought to be produced in the Tan Tien or Lower Burner
> located 2 inches below the navel, while other forms come from the Upper
> Burner located in the chest region. Internal forms such as Chi Kung and
> Tai Chi work at raising, i.e. cause the increase in production, and flow
> of Fire Chi through the meridians and the chakras. NOTE: Chi is
> generally experienced as heat.
>
> *The Power of Chi*, Michael Page
> *Cultivating the Chi. The Secrets of Energy and Vitality*, Stuart Alve Olsen
> *The Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan. Way to Rejuvenation*., Jou, Tsung Hwa
Michael, I'm sure we all bow to your apparently good knowledge of CHI.
My wife, who is a practicing acupuncturist, agrees with what you write
but points out that in MA circles the CHI we talk about is pretty well
understood whether one believes in it or not. Any added complexity
in a newsgroup such as this is just semantics. We all know what is being
discussed whether or not we subscribe to the idea,
Danny.
QUARK
>order to develope "chi power"...consider Miyamoto Musashi, called Eldest
>Son of the God of War.
(Huh? What does bringing in a feudal swordsman have to do with the specific
topic of "chi power" (tm)? Are we trying to use a famous name to bolster our
own wild theories here?)
>Musashi is *still* considered the greatest swordsman AND warrior to ever
>fog a mirror...
(Says who? You? There were plenty of great swordsmen in Japan before and
during Musashi's time (okay, a few after, but times kinda changed). You just
have never heard of most of 'em, because business yuppies haven't either,
hence there is no need to come out with English versions of their "management
theories".)
>"It should be understood that without the assistance of a teacher many
>roads become open to a practitioner, some on the correct path and some on
>the incorrect path. It is not for everyone to be without guidance--only
>a few, and they are exceptional, can make a journey to wisdom without a
>teacher. You must have extraordinary passion, patience, and
>self-discipline to make a journey alone. The goals must be understood,
>difinitive, and no diversion can be acknowledged or permitted if you are
>to attain enlightenment within the sphere of a chosen art......(clip)...
>Also, there is no gaurantee that you will attain perfection. It must all
>come from inside you without any preconceived notions on your part."
> -quoted from "The Martial Artist's Book of Five Rings", interpretation
>by Steve Kaufman, Hanshi - Dojo no Hebi.
(This is a loose paraphrase ("interpretation") by Mr. Kaufman. I wouldn't
quote liberally from his book as final authority until I did a background
check on his qualifications. The "Hanshi" sometimes posts on RMA. I've tried
to corner him on his "Snake" (Hebi) school, to no avail. It is debatable
whether Mr. Kaufman knows any Japanese. Certainly his book gives no
indication that he does. I'm no expert in Japanese either, but at least I've
got some friends who can help me when I need it. Without being able to
translate from the original, it is surely folly (or, good PR, take your
pick) to claim any kind of "definitive" interpretation of anything, as Mr.
Kaufman does. Or, we COULD take the blurb on the cover as the gospel
according to Chas. Tuttle Company.
(Okay, okay, the Tuttle Co. is just trying to sell books. Anybody been to
their store in Rutland, VT? It's a fun, rather quaint bookstore, just
like a lot of places in New England).
Is Mr. Kaufman out there to respond? Might as well bring this out in the
open, since a lot of you guys get taken in by this "Musashi" hoopla, I see...)
>...not trying to argue philosophy, just provoke thought for discussion.
>Ki is one of the more important aspects of martial arts, and as a
>community we should all share in developement of this concept and ability.
(Well, whether "ki" is important or not, your post has not shed any light on
the subject either. All you did is tell us how great Musashi is. We already
knew that from watching Toshiro Mifune slice and dice his way through the
Samurai trilogy. I'm no swordsman, but even I can slice and dice through
twenty of these posts at the same time. Bring 'em on- where's my samurai
do-rag when I need it?).
Q. "Heee-yaaaa!"
Ken Workman
> Does chi exists? yes....
>
> Does it work? yes....
>
> Does it have limitations? yes...have to touch...
>
> Why is it so mysterious? because the energy flow in our nervous system usually moves one way...training is needed to control and intensify it...
>
> Can I develop it in short order? No...years are needed under expert guide. Or you can damage yourself.
>
> Thank you
Raden,
Does chi exist? no....
Does it work? no....
Does it have limitations? only the imaginations of those who "weild" it
Thank YOU
Ken
Thomas B Valesky
: (Okay, okay, the Tuttle Co. is just trying to sell books. Anybody been to
: like a lot of places in New England).
Does Tuttle do mailorder sales to plain old folks like me, or is it
wholesale only? Do they have a catalog of current titles? It seems
like I buy a lot of their stuff, so I might as well cut out the
middleman.
--
===========================================================================
Tom Valesky -- tval...@osf1.gmu.edu -- tval...@site.gmu.edu
Programmer/Analyst C/C++/SQL/Visual Basic
(I don't work for GMU; I'm a part-time grad student)
Trevor the Tractor-Trailer
: Raden,
: Does chi exist? no....
: Does it work? no....
: Does it have limitations? only the imaginations of those who "weild" it
: Thank YOU
: Ken
Thank you o enlightened one for casting those priceless pearls of wisdom before
such swine as ourselves.
You haven't experienced it. Therefore it doesn't exist. How damnably stupid
of me. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me for actually believing what
I can see and feel? Brainwashed, of course, by that damnable Oriental hogwash.
Chastised and about to slink away under a rock,
Oz
RAMON COLORADO, JR.
77 central street at McKinley Square
Boston, Ma 02109
or call 1-800-526-2778
QUARK
>From: tval...@osf1.gmu.edu (Thomas B Valesky)
>Subject: Chas. Tuttle
>Date: 26 Jul 1995 13:29:38 GMT
>QUARK (QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far) wrote:
>: (Okay, okay, the Tuttle Co. is just trying to sell books. Anybody been to
>: their store in Rutland, VT? It's a fun, rather quaint bookstore, just
>: like a lot of places in New England).
>Does Tuttle do mailorder sales to plain old folks like me, or is it
>wholesale only? Do they have a catalog of current titles? It seems
>like I buy a lot of their stuff, so I might as well cut out the
>middleman.
Good questions, Tom; I don't really know. I've never seen a catalog,
although I have seen one for Weatherhill and a few others. Anybody have one
out there for Tuttle?
P.S. (make sure you have "Zen and the Ways" by Trevor Leggett).
Tareq Mirza
I hate it when people try to say something does not exist...when they have
no clue about it.
Ki/Chi does exist!
I took Ki Aikido for a year, and believe me Ki exists.
Are you people saying that Ueshiba was a fake..that all his Aikido is
just cheap tricks? Just because you are ignorant of a subject...don't
try to say that it does not exist.
An since I know you skeptics...NO I have never seen Ueshiba myself...but
my sensei could do a lot of the same things.
As I have said before..just because science can't prove it..that does not
mean it does not exist. It just means..your science is not good enough
to explain it.
Just because you lack the maturity of mind and body to understand and use
KI/chi...don't get mad and try to deny its existence.
Enjoy
Tareq
Thomas B Valesky
Someone else posted Tuttle's address and phone number. I called yesterday
and ordered a catalog (apparently they do have one). For purposes of
redundancy, here is the contact info I got
: Tuttle do have catalog. Write them and ask for one,
Chad J. Landry
writes:
>I hate it when people try to say something does not exist...when they
>have no clue about it.
>
>Ki/Chi does exist!
>I took Ki Aikido for a year, and believe me Ki exists.
>
>not mean it does not exist. It just means..your science is not good
>enough to explain it.
I think that the problem here is not a lack of "good" science,
but a sort of closed-mindedness. Ki is energy. Period. Einstein said
that everything is energy. People have simply spent too much time on
the space/time theory to understand that this is one of the major
things that he meant. Science is "good" enough to prove the existence
of Ki. We simply don't call it that in the mainstream western world.
People speak of "aura", and no one believes in it either until
they see the evidence of Kirlean (sp?) photography. The aura that is
seen is "ki".
Everyone gives off a certain energy at all times. How is it
that we can tell when someone is staring at us from behind? We feel
their energy or "ki".
When we're in a room and an extremely angry person walks in, we
are aware of them immediately. This is "ki".
When someone is sexually stimulated we can feel this energy as
well. This is "ki".
It can also be measured with sensitive instruments. I
personally have measured the energy of the "chakras" with my Fluke
model 87 digital multimeter. The energy is in millivolts, and shows up
all over the human body, but is stronger at the chakras. This is "ki".
People just try to put a mystical "aura" around simple energy
by calling it something different.
Ki is not a magical power that we develop. It's a form of
energy that is in everything that exists. Some of us simply learn to be
more aware of these energies.
Note: I am not a student or professor of physics, nor am I an
expert on "ki". I'm simply writing about what I've experienced in my
life. If anyone finds any inaccuracy in what I've said about physics,
please enlighten me. I don't want to be part of a "flame war".
Chad
notme
jam...@bestlake.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Perhaps a word here on the nature of science, rather than repeating the
does/does
> not exist comments that characterise this topic.
>
> The danger here is called reification: the elevation of a concept to
reality. That
> is what is under dispute. That certain characteristics are exhibited by
ki is not
> really in doubt: however, their explanation is.
>
I'm with you so far.
> As a (poor) example of this, consider early theories about the ether as
a medium for
> transmitting electromagnetic waves. Because it appeared to solve the
problems, the
> ether was elevated to fact, later to be effectively demolished.
Actually in quantum mechanics it can still be used effectively though
in a multidimentional sence, and the theory was droped after the
Michalson-Morely experiment according to Introduction to the Structure
of Matter. Further the theory still works if you think of the ether as being
bent in reference to gravity and is still a valid mental picture for
electrostatics and some of electrodynamics.
But for many years it was a very valid workable hypothesis that allowed
a simple explination of E&M waves. In fact parts of this theory still are
taught in reference to non relativistic E&M. As long as you are ready to
disguard the theory as a tool when it is not relevant, and use it when it
gives the right answers.
Ki theory ( to me at least ) is like this. I find it usefull, and it helps
me both develope ki and in the rest of my training.
>
> This introduces our next principle: the prinicple of most parsimony.
Simply, a
> theory which presumes least is most credible (Occam's razor). Most successful
> theories build on that already known; the ether theory was discredited
because an
> explanation was put forward that did not involve the ether. removal of
occult or
> supernatural effects from explanations seems to be an effective side
process of this
> activity.
Yup. This still doesn't negate the use of ki theory UNTIL you find a better
one that encompases it. Example: relativistic E&M contains electrodynamics
which contains electrostatics. You don't disguard electrostatics because
electrodynamics explains more and better. The math is harder so electrostatics
is more usefull. Thus even if a better theory of ki is found, the lesser
theories are likely to remain usefull. Further in science you wouldn't
disregard electrostatics because it has it's faults ( being based on
the ether theory you brought up ) simply because you hadn't discovered
electrodynamics.
> --
> Andrew Jameson
>
> Everybody wants to be a cat.
Why a cat? ( just wondereing :)
notme
(Frank James) wrote:
> no...@noware.wouldn'tyouliketoknow.where? (notme) wrote:
>
>
> >oh, and if you look at bruce lee's books closely, he worked ki.
> >also if you do a one inch punch with ki, you can leave a warm
> >spot on the oponent, or if your good, dissrupt bodily functions
> >and just drop someone.
>
> No - Bruce Lee laughed at "Chi Power" and dismissed it as pure
> bullshit. I can do 1 inch punch and it has nothing to do with
> "Chi". The "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" books were written
> by Taky Kimura, and he falsely claims that Bruce beleived in Chi
> Power. Interviews with Lee will expose this as a lie perpetrated by
> Kimura.
>
His body mechanics, his one inch punch, other anecdotes about him,
etc. He may have denied it, but I wouldn't completely dismiss it.
> >P.S. I'm a amature magician, BELIEVE ME, I've seen and done
> >things no stage prop can do, magic requires setup, not at an
> >instant on request,
>
> No it doesn't : Good magic requires skills such as misdirection
> and sleigh of hand. Set-ups are only used by amateurish
> magicians. Good magic does not require props or special
> equipment.
I happend to be a slient of hand artist.
>
> Want to know a great Chi Scam ?
>
> This one is done by Monks in China, but here is an american
> version of it:
>
> 1) Catch a fly with a plastic cup - cover the top to trap it
>
> 2) Approach the mark (sucker) and tell him you will kill the
> fly and bring it back to life.
>
> 3) Kill the fly by one of three methods (take your pick)
>
> a) Drown it with water
> b) Kill it with cigarette smoke
> c) Freeze it solid (put cup in freezer)
>
> 4) Once the fly is dead, take it's lifeless body and put it on a
> table. Announce that you will use Chi Power to revive it.
>
> 5) Rub your hands together and concentrate - now gently
> manipulate the dead flies' energy meridians with your
> fingers. Sprinkle a little salt on him and watch him
> miraculously awake and fly away !!!!
>
> We often do this trick in bars - it's a riot.
>
Way cool. I'll add it to my repetrior.
Got any more :)
> >Ki passes this test. Especially
> >when you can teach others to do it and other stuff at an instant.
> >Thus ki acts like a technology.
>
How this one. A new commer comes to the dojo. He meditates with us.
We don't know him, he doesn't know us. He comes out of the meditation
and everyone appears to be glowing. Higher ranks - brighter thicker colors.
The colors he sees corresponded to the areas those students were
concentrating on. Further they can change thier colors at will
( more or less ) and everyone sees the same colors.
Further the new guy leaves the dojo still seeing this glow on himself
and others. Some times it scares them off, at least for a few
weeks. Sometimes they still have this ability for weeks latter.
We do warn them they may see wierd things in the meditation,
and we do an internal energy meditation, I can see the energy
go in and out of people and swirl like a green mist about the
floor. Sensei also directs the energy into people during the meditation.
This can also cause visions.
or this
Send the energy into the third eye chakra in a spiraling motion.
Do not make physical contact with the person. Do this with thier
eyes closed. If you have strong enough ki, the person will feel
a touching feeling inside thier head. This sensation will
stay with them for a while ( at least a few minutes)
I've done that one a few times for people who say what is ki?
You never heard of it? No. well close your eyes. ( Then I did it )
they feel it even they don't know what to expect.
No set up, no flies, no need to say a thing, just point at thier forhead
with thier eyes closed ( while you bring ki from dien tien after a
few breath cycles and picture extending it and cycling it till
you feel the warmth in your fingers, the wind spiral round and picture
a screw coming out of your finger and into thier head )
Or this some one gets a bruise, just point cool ki into in ( from the
kidneays) and if you are strong enough the bruise will actually change
color before your eyes ( I can't quite do this, just relieve the pain
slightly, and some of the imflamation and it seems to heal faster than
it ought to ), my sensei and other can simple make the colors change
on a good day.
Or a dozen others.
> What tests are these ? - I need new bar tricks :-)
>
> Frank
In magic, you do move physically to cause an effect. Further when
you teach a "trick to others" they have to move physically to do the
trick, but that is not the case with ki.
-phil
bra...@lucy.merrimack.edu
If anything I've said has offended you I take it back to the
point of denying I ever said it :)
Chad J. Landry
<jam...@bestlake.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>Perhaps a word here on the nature of science, rather than repeating
>the does/does not exist comments that characterise this topic.
>
>The danger here is called reification: the elevation of a concept to
reality. That is what is under dispute. That certain characteristics
>are exhibited by ki is not really in doubt: however, their explanation
>is.
>
>as a medium for transmitting electromagnetic waves. Because it
>appeared to solve the problems, the ether was elevated to fact, later
>to be effectively demolished.
>
>Simply, a theory which presumes least is most credible (Occam's
>razor). Most successful theories build on that already known; the
>ether theory was discredited because an explanation was put forward
>that did not involve the ether. removal of occult or
>supernatural effects from explanations seems to be an effective side
>process of this activity.
>
>he meant to say everything was energy. Whilst true, it is like saying
>plane crashes are caused by gravity - it's true, but doesn't advance
>our knowledge particularly. Is thought energy? Is a table energy -
>does it matter?
>
>>People speak of "aura", and no one believes in it either until they
>>see the evidence of Kirlean (sp?) photography. The aura that is seen
>>is "ki".
>
>something. But you can't say it's ki, unless that's how you define it.
>
>As a general comment to those posting earlier on this thread, I think
>we can do without the immature "I'm in possession of a secret
>knowledge that you are too stupid/foolish to understand". Gnosis went
>out with alchemy. If you think you have a point, make it, but don't
>rely on naif conceptions of superiority to justify it.
>
>Remember, the single of data is not anecdote.
>--
>Andrew Jameson
>
>Everybody wants to be a cat.
>
This is the kind of intelligent response that I can really
appreciate. It gives me a new reference frame without insulting me.
I asked for enlightenment, and received some.
I think we all benefit from intelligent discussions, and we all
suffer from the tendency to insult those who we disagree with.
As for Einstein, I don't think he'd be unhappy with my
statement. I think he'd be amused that someone of my limited knowledge
in the field would try to summarize his work so simply.
And yes, thought is energy, and so is a table. <grin>
Thanks for the response.
Chad ***"Nothing matters, and what if it did?"***
(Phil Collins)
Frank James
>oh, and if you look at bruce lee's books closely, he worked ki.
>also if you do a one inch punch with ki, you can leave a warm
>spot on the oponent, or if your good, dissrupt bodily functions
>and just drop someone.
No - Bruce Lee laughed at "Chi Power" and dismissed it as pure
bullshit. I can do 1 inch punch and it has nothing to do with
"Chi". The "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" books were written
by Taky Kimura, and he falsely claims that Bruce beleived in Chi
Power. Interviews with Lee will expose this as a lie perpetrated by
Kimura.
>P.S. I'm a amature magician, BELIEVE ME, I've seen and done
>things no stage prop can do, magic requires setup, not at an
>instant on request,
No it doesn't : Good magic requires skills such as misdirection
and sleigh of hand. Set-ups are only used by amateurish
magicians. Good magic does not require props or special
equipment.
Want to know a great Chi Scam ?
This one is done by Monks in China, but here is an american
version of it:
1) Catch a fly with a plastic cup - cover the top to trap it
2) Approach the mark (sucker) and tell him you will kill the
fly and bring it back to life.
3) Kill the fly by one of three methods (take your pick)
a) Drown it with water
b) Kill it with cigarette smoke
c) Freeze it solid (put cup in freezer)
4) Once the fly is dead, take it's lifeless body and put it on a
table. Announce that you will use Chi Power to revive it.
5) Rub your hands together and concentrate - now gently
manipulate the dead flies' energy meridians with your
fingers. Sprinkle a little salt on him and watch him
miraculously awake and fly away !!!!
We often do this trick in bars - it's a riot.
In Canada, flies get trapped in cars during the summer, and they
freeze solid when the winter comes (you find them "dead" inside
the winsheild). When you turn on the car heater, the flies
miraculously come back to life.
I'll never forget how I read a magazine article that claimed the proof
of Chi : It talked about how a Chinese monk would kill flies with
smoke and then revive them (This was in Karate International).
I just about pissed myself laughing !!!
>Ki passes this test. Especially
>when you can teach others to do it and other stuff at an instant.
>Thus ki acts like a technology.
What tests are these ? - I need new bar tricks :-)
Frank
notme
J. Landry ) wrote:
I liked your post,
> It can also be measured with sensitive instruments. I
> personally have measured the energy of the "chakras" with my Fluke
> model 87 digital multimeter. The energy is in millivolts, and shows up
> all over the human body, but is stronger at the chakras. This is "ki".
Really? This works??? COOL, THANK YOU !!
So far I have read a book called: The body, self cultivation and ki energy.
It describes infra red pulses along ki path ways:
practicioner starts generating ki, brain waves attains a pulsed pattern that
is distinctive, nerves down the arm pick up the patterns, Infra red
along path of projected ki is found, and is the same pattern, patient's
nerves along that meridian pick up the pattern, patients brain waves
then attain this pattern.
A multimeter explains much.
>
> Note: I am not a student or professor of physics, nor am I an
> expert on "ki". I'm simply writing about what I've experienced in my
> life. If anyone finds any inaccuracy in what I've said about physics,
> please enlighten me. I don't want to be part of a "flame war".
>
> Chad
I am a senior physics major who happens to have access to a good lab,
I was thinking Krillian video tape as I begin to send out ki, change
it's qualities filmed in low light and in infra red as well as some
holographic photography of my hand ( with a insulated glove ) inside
a highly charged field might be cool.
Got and suggestions ??
-phil
philip braica
notme
jam...@bestlake.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Because a cats the only cat
> Who knows where its at.
>
> Incidentally, due to research funding restraints in Britain, British
> nuclear physicists are currently experimenting with Schrodingers
> not-very-large vole.
:) I get it, sometimes it takes a while, a dozen hints, and some tutoring
but I get it :)
>
> Back to my original point. Just because we place a label on an observed
> phenomenon does not mean that that phenomenon is real or cannot be
> reduced further to components.
My point is that you can, if you feel ki, so reduce it and it when
broken down so matches ki theory as far as ki theory attempts to explain.
Thus it is as usefull when dealing with ki as say non calculus based
electricity and magnetisim.
> This answers, I think, the main point: I was not disputing the
> usefulness of chi as a model, but its elevation to reality.
I try not to elevate anything to reality as a scientist for that
is biased, furthere as a budhist I try not to elevate anything,
anythought, any perception, sentiment or belief that could influence
my judgement on reality, as being real including what I just
wrote. What I believe in is where I've failed as a scientist and
a budhist.
> My
> favourite example is the 16 personality factor (16PF) model: despite
> being able to say personality is explicable by the 16PFs does not mean
> that the PFs actually EXIST. For example, if I ask you to 'stand up',
> it means much more than me instructing you in each task involved in
> standing up. Its a matter of level of detail.
>
> I accept my physics examples were poor.
Naw mine wouldn't have been any better. Physics is like that.
> --
> Andrew Jameson
>
> When I use a word, said Humpty Dumpty in a rather scornful tone,
> it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
Thomas B Valesky
: Want to know a great Chi Scam ?
: This one is done by Monks in China, but here is an american
: version of it:
: 1) Catch a fly with a plastic cup - cover the top to trap it
: 2) Approach the mark (sucker) and tell him you will kill the
: fly and bring it back to life.
: 3) Kill the fly by one of three methods (take your pick)
: a) Drown it with water
: b) Kill it with cigarette smoke
: c) Freeze it solid (put cup in freezer)
: 4) Once the fly is dead, take it's lifeless body and put it on a
: table. Announce that you will use Chi Power to revive it.
: 5) Rub your hands together and concentrate - now gently
: manipulate the dead flies' energy meridians with your
: fingers. Sprinkle a little salt on him and watch him
: miraculously awake and fly away !!!!
: We often do this trick in bars - it's a riot.
Here's a particularly ridiculous one: I saw this on T.V. It was demonstrated
at the National Institute of Health when they were doing investigation
into "alternative therapy."
The claim: The fellow claimed that he could hold a rock in one hand and
break it with ch'i emanating from the other, without touching it.
The trick: This one is really lame. He made a couple of passes over
the rock with his hand, then hit it with his hand and broke it, then
pointed out how he didn't hit it with his hand. Might look pretty
good in person, but doesn't looks so good in slo-mo video.
Any other good ch'i kung flim-flammery, folks? We had a pretty good
thread on this a year or two ago -- let's see what else we can come
up with. Maybe we could even compile something like "the rec.martial-arts
guide to hoaxs, scams, and flim-flams."
Jim
>In article <692117...@bestlake.demon.co.uk>,
>jam...@bestlake.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> Andrew Jameson
>>
>> Everybody wants to be a cat.
>
I thought he was refering to Schrodinger's cat. My favorite example of
science not explaining a known phenomena is gravity. We've integrated the
em, weak, strong forces but not gravity. Physics is perhaps a step or two
away from explaining the physical universe but they're big steps. Biology is
putting it's money on dna. The success we see in the laboratory is based on
one or two genes. However as soon as we get to three or more then the gene
sequencing becomes astronomical. It's very easy to conclude that there will
always be physical or biological phenomena that can't be explained. It
becomes even more staggering if we postulate that biological forces can
affect physical matter or vice versa or simply the interaction of the two.
CHI would be an excellent example of the latter.
---
Jim
---
Jim
Andrew Jameson
Who knows where its at.
Incidentally, due to research funding restraints in Britain, British
nuclear physicists are currently experimenting with Schrodingers
not-very-large vole.
Back to my original point. Just because we place a label on an observed
phenomenon does not mean that that phenomenon is real or cannot be
reduced further to components.
This answers, I think, the main point: I was not disputing the
usefulness of chi as a model, but its elevation to reality. My
favourite example is the 16 personality factor (16PF) model: despite
being able to say personality is explicable by the 16PFs does not mean
that the PFs actually EXIST. For example, if I ask you to 'stand up',
it means much more than me instructing you in each task involved in
standing up. Its a matter of level of detail.
I accept my physics examples were poor.
--
Laurence R. Yocum
I've been in martial arts for about 13 years, and I've come to the
conclusion that it's a lot more about "body mechanics" than the
traditionalists would like you to think.
I was fortunate enough to have an Aiki-jutsu instructor who took great
pains (pun intended) to point out first the mystical explanation of a
given technique, then the mechanical explanation.
Of course, being Americans, we tended to look at things without the
mystical trappings anyway.
Some things can certainly be hard to explain, but that doesn't mean
they're the result of some mystical force.
Larry from Detroit