Usenet news over imap? UWimap
Harald Hannelius
How is this supposed to work? Do I have to have an imap-server
running on the news-server?
Why doesn't uw-imap just nntp from the imap-server to connect
to a configurable news-server. It might do, but I have been unable
to find any docs on this subject.
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Mark Crispin
> How is this supposed to work?
imapd can access a local news spool directly, or you can proxy to an NNTP
server.
The useful form is to have imapd access a local news spool directly.
The only real benefit in proxy to an NNTP server is to have the .newsrc
file on the IMAP server. Otherwise, direct NNTP access is better than
IMAP->NNTP.
> Do I have to have an imap-server
> running on the news-server?
No.
> Why doesn't uw-imap just nntp from the imap-server to connect
> to a configurable news-server.
Because there isn't much benefit in doing that?
-- Mark --
http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Frank Klauert
>
> imapd can access a local news spool directly, or you can proxy to an NNTP
> server.
>
> The useful form is to have imapd access a local news spool directly.
>
> The only real benefit in proxy to an NNTP server is to have the .newsrc
> file on the IMAP server. Otherwise, direct NNTP access is better than
> IMAP->NNTP.
>
Hi!
I have a local news-server and I'd like to read newsgroups from different
computers just like with IMAP. IMAP stores the information which mails
I have marked as important and which I have read on the server. I would
really like to have that feature with news, too. Because I neither know
an extension to NNTP which allows this nor a client that uses this, I'd
would really like my UW-IMAP-server (running on windows BTW for some good
reasons that I can't really change) to show me newsgroups from my local
newsserver and store the information what I have read on the server.
Posting articles is not important with this scenario!
Is this possible with UW-IMAP? Using it as a proxy sounds good!
So far searching with groups.google.com for NNTP and UWIMAP leaves open
especially the question how this NNTP-proxy works? Is it like just
tunneling NNTP-commands through the IMAP-connection and will it
_only_ work with Pine?
Or is it that what I need: UW-IMAP will show me virtual folders that
represent the newsgroups and messages that it finds if it connects
to the news-server and behave almost like real IMAP-folders?
So that I can use any client I like if I get the namespace right?
If the proxy-function is NOT the way to go: Supposed the server used Linux:
Which News-server would I have to install? Which one's newsspool would
be directly found and exported by UW-IMAP?
Does anybody know whether such an NNTP-server (with an spool that
can be read by UW-IMAP) has been ported to Windows?
So far I have tried (after reading Nancy McGough's webpage) to set
{192.168.0.1/user=test/nntp}#news.
as the "path to the rootfolder" in Outlook Express (this is the same
place where I would have to write INBOX if I used Cyrus or Courier
because they have all private folders below INBOX and O.E. is too
stupid to find out the namespace itself)
This does not work, UW-IMAP complains that it can't create the mailbox
{192.168.0.1/user=test/nntp}#news\ because of an "indeterminate
format".
To summarize the most important question: How does this NNTP-proxy
work internally?
Thanks!!
Harald Hannelius
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, Harald Hannelius wrote:
>> How is this supposed to work?
> imapd can access a local news spool directly, or you can proxy to an NNTP
> server.
Please tell me more about that proxy-stuff.
> The useful form is to have imapd access a local news spool directly.
Don't want to do that.
> The only real benefit in proxy to an NNTP server is to have the .newsrc
> file on the IMAP server. Otherwise, direct NNTP access is better than
> IMAP->NNTP.
It would be yes, but since people are getting cable-modems and
we want newsreaders/posters authenticated imap (imap/ssl) seems
like a natural choice. People are using imap anyways..
>> to a configurable news-server.
> Because there isn't much benefit in doing that?
Well, for us it would be. Easier for the user and so on..
Mark Crispin
> IMAP stores the information which mails
> I have marked as important and which I have read on the server. I would
> really like to have that feature with news, too. Because I neither know
> an extension to NNTP which allows this nor a client that uses this, I'd
> would really like my UW-IMAP-server (running on windows BTW for some good
> reasons that I can't really change) to show me newsgroups from my local
> newsserver and store the information what I have read on the server.
The IMAP->NNTP proxy facility will not do this for you. You can set flags
other than \Deleted, but those flag settings will be lost in your next
session.
Nor, for that matter, will the existing support for a local news spool do
this.
> Posting articles is not important with this scenario!
>
> So far searching with groups.google.com for NNTP and UWIMAP leaves open
> especially the question how this NNTP-proxy works? Is it like just
> tunneling NNTP-commands through the IMAP-connection
Yes. For the IMAP->NNTP proxy, you send a Pine-type mailbox name to the
UW IMAP server, so in Pine it would be something like:
{myimapserver.com}{mynntpserver.com}comp.mail.imap
If the IMAP server has a local news spool (so no need for NNTP), then you
use #news names, e.g.
{myimapserver.com}#news.comp.mail.imap
Note that this will only work in an UW IMAP server. Other IMAP servers
may offer newsgroup capability in their own way.
> This does not work, UW-IMAP complains that it can't create the mailbox
> {192.168.0.1/user=test/nntp}#news\ because of an "indeterminate
> format".
You can not create mailboxes in NNTP.
Ken Murchison
FYI, I'm currently working on a NNTP daemon for Cyrus IMAP v2.2 which
allows news be be delivered directly to Cyrus from your newsfeeds (ISP,
peers, etc), and read either NNTP or IMAP. If reading via IMAP, nntpd
adds a To: header corresponding to the "special" email address used for
posting. The actual posting when reading via IMAP is done via
lmtp2nntp.
(This thread and my reply all passed through this process)
Ken
--
Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp
Eric A. Hall
on 10/23/2002 9:39 AM Ken Murchison wrote:
> FYI, I'm currently working on a NNTP daemon for Cyrus IMAP v2.2 which
> allows news be be delivered directly to Cyrus from your newsfeeds (ISP,
> peers, etc), and read either NNTP or IMAP.
Hopefully you are also providing aging and/or quantity controls?
--
Eric A. Hall http://www.ehsco.com/
Internet Core Protocols http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/coreprot/
Ken Murchison
"Eric A. Hall" wrote:
>
> on 10/23/2002 9:39 AM Ken Murchison wrote:
>
> > FYI, I'm currently working on a NNTP daemon for Cyrus IMAP v2.2 which
> > allows news be be delivered directly to Cyrus from your newsfeeds (ISP,
> > peers, etc), and read either NNTP or IMAP.
>
> Hopefully you are also providing aging and/or quantity controls?
Yes. Cyrus already has a tool to purge messages based on age/size. I'm
currently using it to expire articles, but I plan to tailor a new one
geared more towards news.
Lyndon Nerenberg
Ken> Yes. Cyrus already has a tool to purge messages based on
Ken> age/size. I'm currently using it to expire articles, but I
Ken> plan to tailor a new one geared more towards news.
What volume of news traffic do you expect this to be able to handle?
The thought of Cyrus having to expire across 20,000+ newsgroups
strikes fear into my heart :-)
I can't figure out why IMAP is a better protocol than NNTP for reading
Usenet. The only benefit I can see is the ability to use IMAP's search
and threading capabilities, but I cannot comprehend what amount of
hardware it would take to build an IMAP server that could keep up with
all of Usenet while provoding those facilities.
--lyndon
Nancy McGough
>
> I can't figure out why IMAP is a better protocol than NNTP for reading
> Usenet. The only benefit I can see is the ability to use IMAP's search
> and threading capabilities,
Another benefit is that one could use an IMAP client, such as
Mulberry, to read and save news messages. I have a massive amount
of IMAP-accessible mailboxes stored on various IMAP servers
around the world because this is where I store all my tidbits of
information, all my web and news and mail and whatever clippings.
Right now I use Pine and Mozilla to save news messages into IMAP
mailboxes, but neither of those come anywhere near Mulberry for
being able to right click on a message and easily choosing the
appropriate IMAP mailbox on the appropriate IMAP server. To me,
this is a great way to do personal (and interpersonal)
information management. (And I don't know why people like Mitch
Kaport and his Open Source Applications Foundation don't get
this.)
Nancy
--
PROCMAIL <http://www.ii.com/internet/robots/procmail/qs/>
IMAP <http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/imap/isps/>
PINE <http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/>
-- I N F I N I T E I N K www.ii.com N A N C Y M c G O U G H --
Ken Murchison
Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Ken" == Ken Murchison <k...@oceana.com> writes:
> Ken> Yes. Cyrus already has a tool to purge messages based on
> Ken> age/size. I'm currently using it to expire articles, but I
> Ken> plan to tailor a new one geared more towards news.
>
> What volume of news traffic do you expect this to be able to handle?
Don't know yet.
> The thought of Cyrus having to expire across 20,000+ newsgroups
> strikes fear into my heart :-)
Mine too. My intentions aren't for it to be used for a full feed. Its
basically to simply things for sites that are already exporting news via
IMAP (via Cyrus' collectnews or INN's imapfeed, etc).
Having NNTP built-in to Cyrus removes the _need_ for a local newsserver,
and doesn't depend on this server being INN (which collectnews and
imapfeed require).
> I can't figure out why IMAP is a better protocol than NNTP for reading
> Usenet. The only benefit I can see is the ability to use IMAP's search
> and threading capabilities, but I cannot comprehend what amount of
It allows newgroups and shared folders to be read with the same client.
It keeps \Seen state on the server.
I agree that there might (probably?) be scalability issues, but we're
still in the testing phase.
If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. Feel free to take this
offline, if you want.
Ken
Rob Siemborski
> > Ken> Yes. Cyrus already has a tool to purge messages based on
> > Ken> age/size. I'm currently using it to expire articles, but I
> > Ken> plan to tailor a new one geared more towards news.
> >
> > What volume of news traffic do you expect this to be able to handle?
>
> Don't know yet.
Note that CMU atleast is currently using Cyrus to host a full NNTP feed on
an IMAP server, so my experience is telling me this shouldn't be a major
concern.
> > The thought of Cyrus having to expire across 20,000+ newsgroups
> > strikes fear into my heart :-)
>
> Mine too. My intentions aren't for it to be used for a full feed. Its
> basically to simply things for sites that are already exporting news via
> IMAP (via Cyrus' collectnews or INN's imapfeed, etc).
Likewise, expiring folders isn't a huge problem for us.
> > I can't figure out why IMAP is a better protocol than NNTP for reading
> > Usenet. The only benefit I can see is the ability to use IMAP's search
> > and threading capabilities, but I cannot comprehend what amount of
>
> It allows newgroups and shared folders to be read with the same client.
> It keeps \Seen state on the server.
>
> I agree that there might (probably?) be scalability issues, but we're
> still in the testing phase.
Really, the only issues that are in question are with the new nntpd.
Cyrus has already proved itself capable of handling a full news feed worth
of IMAP folders. Keep in mind that the real scalability question is one
of # of (concurrent) users not # of folders.
If anything I like it more since it means I don't need to use a separate
client to read all of my mail, local shared folders, and newsgroups.
Now, the issue of if IMAP clients (in general) have reached the level of
support for shared folders that NNTP clients seem to have is not an issue
I'm wanting to broach.
-Rob
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski | Andrew Systems Group * Research Systems Programmer
PGP:0x5CE32FCC | Cyert Hall 207 * rj...@andrew.cmu.edu * 412.268.7456
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Lyndon Nerenberg
Ken> It allows newgroups and shared folders to be read with the
Ken> same client.
This isn't a big deal for me. I regularly use three or four different
MUAs (against the same message store), depending on what I need to
accomplish. For reading news, I've yet to find anything that beats gnus.
Ken> It keeps \Seen state on the server.
Now *this* is something that I can buy into. IMAP isn't the solution,
though. ACAP is. With ACAP you can do a lot more than just .newsrc
read-message tracking. I want to be able to store things like kill
lists, host-specific subscription lists (that is, subscriptions
that vary based on where I'm running the client), and maintain
a subscription view that encompasses more than one NNTP server.
While you could do most of this with annotations on an IMAP server,
it would be a big hairy wart.
Ken> If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.
In my view, the way to deal with this is to write an imapd for INN,
and not to turn Cyrus into a news transport. The whole collectnews
thing is just a bag hanging off the side of an otherwise elegant
application.
--lyndon
Eric A. Hall
on 10/24/2002 11:31 PM Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>>>>>>"Ken" == Ken Murchison <k...@oceana.com> writes:
> Ken> It keeps \Seen state on the server.
>
> Now *this* is something that I can buy into. IMAP isn't the solution,
> though. ACAP is.
I disagree. We are talking about IMAP access here. Server-based per-user
flags is the appropriate model for IMAP access to shared folders, since
the client doesn't have to do anything special. Your approach would
require the client to do a lot more work for the same basic results; not
only would the client have to support ACAP, but it would also be required
to manage local caches of the folders. In essence, you are arguing to
impose the netnews distributed data-access model on the IMAP access model,
when the benefits come from taking advantage of IMAP's distributed
data-access model in particular.
[disclaimer: Ken didn't specifically mention per-user flags but I ass-u-me
that this is what he was referring to]
> In my view, the way to deal with this is to write an imapd for INN,
> and not to turn Cyrus into a news transport.
I would disagree with that as well, for the same reasons.