Send in the Clones
Harry Erwin
commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the script. Also the
flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
There was a role-playing game (Paranoia by West End) some years back
that took place in a city controlled by a mad computer
<http://www.employees.org/~pcorless/author.html>. Every character got
six clones, and the GM's goal was to kill them off in an amusing (to
him/her) fashion. As Peter Corless writes:
"A truly twisted introduction to roleplaying game design. I've never
been the same since. My thanks to all who envisioned and brought this
game to market. For those who have never heard of this game, it is
roughly akin to HAL9000 (from '2001: A Space Odyssey') taking over the
world of 'Logan's Run', with healthy portions of the 'Three Stooges'
thrown in for comedic effect."
Note that Corless wrote "Send in the Clones" (1985) as a scenario for
this game. John Ford wrote another scenario ("Yellow Clearance Black Box
Blues"). Corless has also written Star Wars material.
That may have had an influence on this turkey.
--
Harry Erwin, <mailto:ha...@dherwin.org>
Brandon Ray
Harry Erwin wrote:
> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
> the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the script. Also the
> flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
I had no difficulty following the plot. Perhaps you just weren't paying
attention. Or -- from your comments -- maybe you'd made up your mind to
dislike the film before you entered the theater.
Sea Wasp
>
> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
> the plot
? C'mon, the plot, what there was of it, was trivial to follow.
The plotTING was clumsy, though the machinations of Palpatine/Sidious
make it sorta fun to follow.
I'm more convinced, now that I've seen the film, that Anakin is using
Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
Steinn Sigurdsson
> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
> the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the script. Also the
> flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
There are flying monkeys in Mordor.
The Karate Kid can too kick Evil Robocop butt.
Jedi know no tactics or strategy.
Wavemaker
"Sea Wasp" wrote:
>
> I'm more convinced, now that I've seen the film, that Anakin is using
> Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
LOL! I think you may be right. I'm not sure I know how you think Anakin is
playing tricks on her, but I found the Anakin/Amidala relationship
unbelievable and the dialog exchanged between them stilted and stale. There
was no real chemistry between them, so when she finally fell for the guy
after his incessant whining, it came across as forced. Um, but then if
Anakin is using the force... it makes a bit more sense.
Mary K. Kuhner
Wavemaker <jabber...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Sea Wasp" wrote:
Specifically, the dialog establishes that Anakin dislikes and distrusts
politicians and does not believe in democracy; he would prefer a
dictatorship of the capable man. (Probably ideas Palpatine is coaching
him in.) In other words, he rejects everything Padme values most
highly. This is not a good basis for a love affair, and Padme comes
across as smart enough to know that.
For me the clincher was "I've been dying a little bit inside every day
since you came back." If I were trying to depict this as simply
young love, I would not put it that way; it's a nasty line. I think she
*is* dying inside, a little more every day. I hope for a scene in
ep. 3 that explores this.
Ep. 2 can be a very dark and bitter movie if one's inclined to take it
that way: corrupt and incapable Jedi, corrupt politicians, a real lack
of unambiguously good characters. Only Padme, in my view of things.
And she is being set up as a victim.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
jere7my tho?rpe
mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
> Specifically, the dialog establishes that Anakin dislikes and distrusts
> politicians and does not believe in democracy; he would prefer a
> dictatorship of the capable man.
Ah -- but then he smirks, and Amidala takes that to mean he was
teasing her. After all, nobody could _really_ believe those things, and
certainly not that sweet little boy from Tatooine who's making her all
mushy inside....
----j7y
--
*************************************************************************
jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "Homo sum: humani nihil a me
http://homepage.mac.com/jere7my alienum puto." ---Terentius
Brenda W. Clough
Are they corrupt, or merely spectacularly incompetent? (I incline
towards corrupt, myself.)
Padme under the influence of mind control does make many things more
palatable. Like the way, after agreeing with Anakin that a relationship
is impossible, she immediately shifts to low cut and filmy garments.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Harry Erwin
I had no difficulty following events, but they had no resemblence to a
plot. More like a sequence of coincidences interleaved with miracles.
Reminded me of a bad Keith Laumer novel. And I like _good_ KL novels.
My wife and I came to the conclusion that Lucas was letting his
youngster help with the script.
Harry Erwin
>
> Are they corrupt, or merely spectacularly incompetent? (I incline
> towards corrupt, myself.)
>
> Padme under the influence of mind control does make many things more
> palatable. Like the way, after agreeing with Anakin that a relationship
> is impossible, she immediately shifts to low cut and filmy garments.
>
> Brenda
She reminded me a lot of the teens and college kids working in a
Presbyterian summer camp that we used to attend.
Joseph Michael Bay
>harry...@sunderland.ac.uk (Harry Erwin) writes:
Worst haiku ever.
--
Joseph M. Bay Lamont Sanford Junior University
Putting the "harm" in molecular pharmacology since 1998
t3H quIc/< 6roWn Ph0x0r jUmP3D ovER T3h 14zY do9
Do you like http://www.stanford.edu/~jmbay gladiator movies?
Mary K. Kuhner
>>Ep. 2 can be a very dark and bitter movie if one's inclined to take it
>>that way: corrupt and incapable Jedi,
>Are they corrupt, or merely spectacularly incompetent? (I incline
>towards corrupt, myself.)
I vote for corrupt. The stylistic cue is the striking
similarity in terms of address between master and apprentice of the
Jedi and the Sith (compare Sidious/Maul with Obi-wan/Anakin). And
the fact that Obi-wan is not in control of his own emotions makes him
a remarkably bad teacher for Anakin--is this the best the Order can do now?
Warren Dew did a post many years ago tracing the entire debacle to
the idea that Yoda is a failed or corrupt Jedi who spawns a lineage
of failed/corrupt Jedi (and boy, a teacher who lives 800 years can
leave quite a stiff legacy). He said that before seeing Eps. 1 or 2,
but I think they just reinforce the idea, especially in establishing
some more of Yoda's students and what happened to them.
I am banking that Sidious' teacher in the Dark Side was a student of
Yoda's.
>Padme under the influence of mind control does make many things more
>palatable. Like the way, after agreeing with Anakin that a relationship
>is impossible, she immediately shifts to low cut and filmy garments.
Good point. For someone as level-headed and used to publicity as
Padme, that was awfully dumb. Being alone with him in romantic contexts
was not smart either, but maybe she couldn't avoid that (he being
her bodyguard and all) though I note that Obi-wan and Anakin were
not in her bedchamber on Coruscant.
Sure, teens are sometimes dumb this way, but Padme? She seems fairly
mature.
My husband and I cheered when we finally saw her in reasonable clothes.
If assassins were hounding me, I wouldn't be wearing long, trailing,
gauzy robes, no way! Especially if I were a wonderful athlete and
apparently trained martial artist (given the ending scenes).
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
wrote:
>Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> writes:
>
>>harry...@sunderland.ac.uk (Harry Erwin) writes:
>
>>> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
>>> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
>>> the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the script. Also the
>>> flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
>
>>There are flying monkeys in Mordor.
>>The Karate Kid can too kick Evil Robocop butt.
>>Jedi know no tactics or strategy.
>
>
>Worst haiku ever.
'snot a Haiku; syllable count is all wrong.
Hm.
Mordor Monkeys fly,
Kid Karates Robocop;
Jedi war-skill, zero.
Justin Bacon
> I'm more convinced, now that I've seen the film, that Anakin is using
>Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
The meme spreads...
JB
Justin Bacon
>For me the clincher was "I've been dying a little bit inside every day
>since you came back." If I were trying to depict this as simply
>young love, I would not put it that way; it's a nasty line. I think she
>*is* dying inside, a little more every day. I hope for a scene in
>ep. 3 that explores this.
Nice catch.
I'm convinced that this plays a significant role in Anakin's eventual fall.
>Ep. 2 can be a very dark and bitter movie if one's inclined to take it
>that way: corrupt and incapable Jedi, corrupt politicians, a real lack
>of unambiguously good characters. Only Padme, in my view of things.
>And she is being set up as a victim.
The film is improved about 150% if Anakin is using Jedi tricks on Amidala. (The
"love" scenes are improved by a factor of 10.) If nothing else, that's a good
reason for arguing that it's true until we're told otherwise.
JB
Mike Schilling
news:3CFB85...@wizvax.net...
> Harry Erwin wrote:
> >
> > I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
> > commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
> > the plot
>
> ? C'mon, the plot, what there was of it, was trivial to follow.
>
> The plotTING was clumsy, though the machinations of Palpatine/Sidious
> make it sorta fun to follow.
>
> I'm more convinced, now that I've seen the film, that Anakin is using
> Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
I truly wish that I respected Lucas enough to consider anything in that film
intentional. I can't believe anything in it, which makes it difficult to
get past "Poor acting, crappy dialog., cool spaceships. And why don't they
just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went out with Adam West."
Jason Maxwell
news:AdXK8.16198$jC4.27...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> And why don't they
> just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went out with Adam West."
>
Adam West hasn't been around yet to "go out".
;-)
Jason
Brenda W. Clough
And it's hereditary, you know. Why doesn't Shmi Skywalker know who
Anakin's father is? Because he was a Jedi (probably Qui-Gon), and the
morning after he did the little finger wave, intoning, "We didn't have
sex. You don't know me..."
Mike Schilling
news:3CFC49DB...@erols.com...
> And it's hereditary, you know. Why doesn't Shmi Skywalker know who
> Anakin's father is? Because he was a Jedi (probably Qui-Gon), and the
> morning after he did the little finger wave, intoning, "We didn't have
> sex. You don't know me..."
You're sure he waved his finger?
John Hill
> On 3 Jun 2002 21:53:36 GMT, jm...@Stanford.EDU (Joseph Michael Bay)
> wrote:
>
>>Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> writes:
>>
>>>harry...@sunderland.ac.uk (Harry Erwin) writes:
>>
>>>> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
>>>> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't
>>>> figure out the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the
>>>> script. Also the flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
>>
>>>There are flying monkeys in Mordor.
>>>The Karate Kid can too kick Evil Robocop butt.
3233
>>>Jedi know no tactics or strategy.
>>
>>
>>Worst haiku ever.
>
> 'snot a Haiku; syllable count is all wrong.
>
> Hm.
>
> Mordor Monkeys fly,
> Kid Karates Robocop;
> Jedi war-skill, zero.
There are flying monkeys in Mordor.
The Karate Kid can too kick Robocop's butt.
Jedi know no tactics or strategy.
Tanka.
JH
Brandon Ray
Harry Erwin wrote:
That narrows it down some. I'm now leaning fairly heavily towards the idea
that you were predisposed to dislike the movie. It most certainly did have a
plot.
Tom Scudder
> In article <3CFBD295...@erols.com>,
> Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
> >Padme under the influence of mind control does make many things more
> >palatable. Like the way, after agreeing with Anakin that a relationship
> >is impossible, she immediately shifts to low cut and filmy garments.
>
> Good point. For someone as level-headed and used to publicity as
> Padme, that was awfully dumb. Being alone with him in romantic contexts
> was not smart either, but maybe she couldn't avoid that (he being
> her bodyguard and all) though I note that Obi-wan and Anakin were
> not in her bedchamber on Coruscant.
>
> Sure, teens are sometimes dumb this way, but Padme? She seems fairly
> mature.
And she'd have to be in her late 20s, at least, by internal chronology.
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Tom Scudder <tom...@spidernet.com.cy> wrote:
>mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote in
>message news:<adgrei$1cru$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>>
>> mature.
>
>And she'd have to be in her late 20s, at least, by internal chronology.
I think she was supposed to be 14 in the previous movie and 24 in this
one. A stretch, maybe, but not impossible.
As for being dumb about "stuff like that", well, in the real world
there are no limits to just how dumb otherwise smart and apparently
mature people can turn out to be.
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Sea Wasp
>
> "Sea Wasp" <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
> news:3CFB85...@wizvax.net..
Elaborate death traps NEVER go out of style, Mr. Bond.
Just shooting them? Bad form, sir, bad form.
Martin Hardgrave
Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes
>I truly wish that I respected Lucas enough to consider anything in that film
>intentional. I can't believe anything in it, which makes it difficult to
>get past "Poor acting, crappy dialog., cool spaceships. And why don't they
>just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went out with Adam West."
How about Lucas designed the computer game (car chase, production line
etc) first and built a film around it?
--
Martin Hardgrave
Justin Fang
Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
{Attack of the Clones spoilers]
>And why don't they just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went
>out with Adam West."
That one's actually explainable: The Two Darths *want* them to survive.
Or at least they want Anakin to survive, and it doesn't much matter if
the others live as well. Also note the careful pausing of the droid
assault just long enough for "rescue" to arrive.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Robert Carnegie
You're welcome.
Mary K. Kuhner
>As for being dumb about "stuff like that", well, in the real world
>there are no limits to just how dumb otherwise smart and apparently
>mature people can turn out to be.
This is true, but doesn't necessarily make satisfying fiction. I
think I would have enjoyed the movie a lot more if Padme had been
allowed--not to show good sense; she *did* show good sense--to reap
the rewards of her good sense.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Steinn Sigurdsson
> Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> writes:
> >harry...@sunderland.ac.uk (Harry Erwin) writes:
> >> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
> >> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
> >> the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the script. Also the
> >> flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
> >There are flying monkeys in Mordor.
> >The Karate Kid can too kick Evil Robocop butt.
> >Jedi know no tactics or strategy.
> Worst haiku ever.
Haiku? That's one of them furrin poeem's what don't scan?
Monkey over Mordor Fly
Mean Robocop Menaces I
Karate Kid comes kick butt
Know no tactic, Jedi suck.
That's more traditional.
Rhyme is weak, and the alliteration
relies on phonetic cheating, but it sort of scans.
Richard Harter
(Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
In the book (discussing a book in rasfw? horrors!) an attempt is made
to make sense of the situation. The nub is that Padme had been
avoiding personal and romantic involvement up to then. There is a
conversation between she and her sister in which her sister tells her
that she should be thinking more of herself instead of building her
life around public duty. Having suppressed part of her emotional
development, she is susceptible to Anakin's onslaught.
Fair enough, that can work as a story line. The trouble is (as I see
it) is that Lucas doesn't put enough effort into establishing what is
going on in people's heads. He puts cues in here and there, but not
quite enough of them. I opine that he sacrifices too much story to
get in more action.
I like Padme succumbing to Jedi mind tricks though. It explains so
much.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net,
http://home.tiac.net/~cri, http://www.varinoma.com
It is necessary that virtue be its own reward;
It is not otherwise rewarded in this world.
Nyrath the nearly wise
Naw, just his "light saber"
Nyrath the nearly wise
> I truly wish that I respected Lucas enough to consider anything in that film
> intentional. I can't believe anything in it, which makes it difficult to
> get past "Poor acting, crappy dialog., cool spaceships. And why don't they
> just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went out with Adam West."
This topic is explored in the first "Austin Powers" movie,
when Dr. Evil and his son argue about the best way to
execute Powers.
Andrew Plotkin
> I like Padme succumbing to Jedi mind tricks though. It explains so
> much.
Not Anakin succumbing to Padme's Sith mind tricks?
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
J Greely
>Not Anakin succumbing to Padme's Sith mind tricks?
The tricks Padme used to control Anakin's mind were purchased at
Frederick's Of Naboo.
-j
Aaron P. Brezenski
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, Richard Harter <c...@tiac.net> wrote:
>
>> I like Padme succumbing to Jedi mind tricks though. It explains so
>> much.
>
>Not Anakin succumbing to Padme's Sith mind tricks?
As I stated in another forum:
"I don't want to get involved with you, Ani." I wanted him to say,
"Then what's with the romantic music, firelight, and the
leather-f*cking-bustier?"
If there's any scene which was just screaming, "Use your Force
on me now, young padawan!", it was that one.
--
Aaron Brezenski
Not speaking for my employer in any way
Lee Ann Rucker
<mar...@deira.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I recently read where Lucas says the production line was something he
thought up after main filming had ended. He may think it's cool, I
think it's filler.
I think it would've been improved if they'd gone to Tatooine first, so
that Padme would have gotten to know Anakin before they "fell in love".
Failing that, Jedi mind tricks are the only rational explanation.
(Was anyone else thinking "Restraining order!" during the fireplace
scene?)
Sean O'Hara
>
> In article <3CFBD295...@erols.com>,
> Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
> >Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
>
> >>Ep. 2 can be a very dark and bitter movie if one's inclined to take it
> >>that way: corrupt and incapable Jedi,
>
> >Are they corrupt, or merely spectacularly incompetent? (I incline
> >towards corrupt, myself.)
>
> I vote for corrupt. The stylistic cue is the striking
> similarity in terms of address between master and apprentice of the
> Jedi and the Sith (compare Sidious/Maul with Obi-wan/Anakin). And
> the fact that Obi-wan is not in control of his own emotions makes him
> a remarkably bad teacher for Anakin--is this the best the Order can do now?
>
Their PR firm claims they're "the guardians of peace and justice" --
a motto Obi Wan repeats when persuading Luke to join the cause. But
look at the facts -- in TPM the Jedi dispatch a master and his
apprentice to deal with the Naboo trade dispute (this is well before
it turns into an armed conflict). At the same time they learn of a
thriving slave trade on the planet of Tatooine, yet despite training
a freed slave, the Jedi ignore the Tatooine problem for a decade. Are
the mighty Jedi afraid of a couple aliens who are impervious to
mind tricks? Do they only guard justice when it's convenient for
them?
Or maybe they're really the guardians of tax revenue and the
entrenched political power-structure.
--
Sean O辿ara
"Took up a noble cause called the Clone Wars
Cuz life's not all about girls and cars and
Getting f***ed up in f***ed up bars."
--MC Chris, "Fett's Vette" http://www.mcchris.com
David Cowie
It's not light, it's HEAVY!
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
So high, so low, so many things to know.
Aaron P. Brezenski
Mary K. Kuhner <mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu> wrote:
>In article <3CFBD295...@erols.com>,
>Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>>Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
>
>>>Ep. 2 can be a very dark and bitter movie if one's inclined to take it
>>>that way: corrupt and incapable Jedi,
>
>>Are they corrupt, or merely spectacularly incompetent? (I incline
>>towards corrupt, myself.)
>
>I vote for corrupt. The stylistic cue is the striking
>similarity in terms of address between master and apprentice of the
>Jedi and the Sith (compare Sidious/Maul with Obi-wan/Anakin). And
>the fact that Obi-wan is not in control of his own emotions makes him
>a remarkably bad teacher for Anakin--is this the best the Order can do now?
>
>the idea that Yoda is a failed or corrupt Jedi who spawns a lineage
>of failed/corrupt Jedi (and boy, a teacher who lives 800 years can
>leave quite a stiff legacy). He said that before seeing Eps. 1 or 2,
>but I think they just reinforce the idea, especially in establishing
>some more of Yoda's students and what happened to them.
>
>I am banking that Sidious' teacher in the Dark Side was a student of
>Yoda's.
I laughed my ass off at the point in the movie wherein Dooku was revealed
to be Yoda's apprentice, given Kenobi's guilt over Anakin becoming Vader
in RotJ:
"I thought I could be as good a teacher as Master Yoda. I was wrong."
No, Ben, it looks like you just picked a pupil with too many midichlorians.
Yoda didn't do that much better.
J Greely
>(Was anyone else thinking "Restraining order!" during the fireplace
>scene?)
Well, it certainly explained why Jedi aren't supposed to love.
-j
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
David Cowie <david_co...@lineone.net> wrote:
>Nyrath the nearly wise wrote on Tuesday 04 June 2002 16:42 pm:
>
>> Naw, just his "light saber"
>
>It's not light, it's HEAVY!
The guy they've got writing the Norwegian subtitles for those
movies (ever since the updated rerelease of the original movies
five years ago) fucked up the translation of "light saber" in
just that manner (light = undark and light = unheavy are two
different words, here). And he's still got the job, even though
he's not repeated *that* mistake, there are many others to make
(on Episode II he demonstrated that he does not know the difference
between "invincible" and "invisible").
Aaron P. Brezenski
Actually, I was thinking that during several scenes *before* the fireplace
scene, but he'd already given her not-so-subtle indications of his feelings
for her before that scene. You could even assert that the time to call the
Jedi Council and ask for a new assignee to protect her would have been
immediately after she told him he was making her feel uncomfortable.
While I'd be the last person to buy into the "she was wearing provocative
clothing, so she was asking for it" fallacy, if her intent was really to
ensure that Anakin didn't get the wrong idea, the firelight and romantic
music playing in the background was imprudent at best. Once he had put the
moves on her in the garden, she knew what he was after without a shadow
of a doubt.
Unless we're willing to stipulate that Amidala is such a naive little girl
that she didn't know what effect she was generating, it's evident that she
was at least intrigued by the possibilities. Or else she was being
deliberately cruel by seeing exactly how far she could tease him before he
uttered various un-Jedi-like words at her and stormed away to his room.
None of that justifies any of Anakin's behavior, but there comes a point in
time when you say to yourself, "This guy's not getting the hint. I may need
to call the police." In Amidala's case, it was clear he was not getting the
hint, but it was equally clear to me that by the time of the firelight scene,
she herself was conflicted in whether or not she wanted to change the hint.
Joseph Michael Bay
>On 3 Jun 2002 21:53:36 GMT, jm...@Stanford.EDU (Joseph Michael Bay)
>wrote:
>>Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> writes:
>>>harry...@sunderland.ac.uk (Harry Erwin) writes:
>>>> I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
>>>> commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
>>>> the plot--Keith Laumer must have had a hand in the script. Also the
>>>> flight scenes seemed to take place in still air.
>>>There are flying monkeys in Mordor.
>>>The Karate Kid can too kick Evil Robocop butt.
>>>Jedi know no tactics or strategy.
>>Worst haiku ever.
>'snot a Haiku; syllable count is all wrong.
That's part of why it's the worst haiku ever.
--
Joseph M. Bay Lamont Sanford Junior University
Putting the "harm" in molecular pharmacology since 1998
t3H quIc/< 6roWn Ph0x0r jUmP3D ovER T3h 14zY do9
Do you like http://www.stanford.edu/~jmbay gladiator movies?
Robert Carnegie
> In article <55923148.02060...@posting.google.com>,
> Tom Scudder <tom...@spidernet.com.cy> wrote:
> >mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote in
> >message news:<adgrei$1cru$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
> >>
> >> Sure, teens are sometimes dumb this way, but Padme? She seems fairly
> >> mature.
> >
> >And she'd have to be in her late 20s, at least, by internal chronology.
>
> I think she was supposed to be 14 in the previous movie and 24 in this
> one. A stretch, maybe, but not impossible.
And Kes in _Star Trek: Voyager_ isn't even from a galaxy far, far
away (as far as I recall), and she had a natural life expectancy
in single figures Perhaps on name-of-planet-forgotten they grow
up quick, but dumb.
Having said that, I haven't seen the movie, and please put me down
as another believer in Jedi mind tricks and other uses of the Force
as their main way to pick up chicks.
Candy
Is dandy,
Hypnosis
Is the mostest,
But levitation
Is fascinatin'.
(Eat your heart out, Marshall Mathers.)
David Johnston
>Their PR firm claims they're "the guardians of peace and justice" --
>a motto Obi Wan repeats when persuading Luke to join the cause. But
>look at the facts -- in TPM the Jedi dispatch a master and his
>apprentice to deal with the Naboo trade dispute (this is well before
>it turns into an armed conflict). At the same time they learn of a
>thriving slave trade on the planet of Tatooine, yet despite training
>a freed slave, the Jedi ignore the Tatooine problem for a decade. Are
>the mighty Jedi afraid of a couple aliens who are impervious to
>mind tricks
Apparently, they are afraid of operating outside the Republic. It is stated in
the fourth movie that Tatooine was outside their
jurisdiction.
David Johnston
>Date: 06/04/2002 8:02 AM EST
>Message-id: <adidpg$eic$1...@panix3.panix.com>
Sort of like in the first movie. Everyone mocks the bad marksmanship of storm
troopers on the Death Star, and ignores
that they'd been ordered to let the escapees
go so that they would lead the DS to Endor.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:20020604174914...@mb-fa.aol.com:
>...
> Sort of like in the first movie. Everyone mocks the bad
> marksmanship of storm troopers on the Death Star, and ignores
> that they'd been ordered to let the escapees
> go so that they would lead the DS to Endor.
And what explains the bad marksmanship of stormtroopers in the
other two movies? :-)
(Nitpick: the moon of Yavin, not Endor. Endor was where an
established Imperial base, commanded by "a *legion*" of the
Emperor's "best troops" couldn't withstand an attack of three-foot-
tall savages with spears, backed by less than half a dozen Rebels
armed only with personal blasters. *They* weren't under orders to
let the attack succeed.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
William December Starr
rja.ca...@excite.com (Robert Carnegie) said:
[ re Padme Amidala ]
> And Kes in _Star Trek: Voyager_ isn't even from a galaxy far, far
> away (as far as I recall), and she had a natural life expectancy
> in single figures Perhaps on name-of-planet-forgotten they grow
> up quick, but dumb.
Naboo. The natives are Naboobies, of course.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Ross TenEyck
>Their PR firm claims they're "the guardians of peace and justice" --
>a motto Obi Wan repeats when persuading Luke to join the cause. But
>look at the facts -- in TPM the Jedi dispatch a master and his
>apprentice to deal with the Naboo trade dispute (this is well before
>it turns into an armed conflict). At the same time they learn of a
>thriving slave trade on the planet of Tatooine, yet despite training
>a freed slave, the Jedi ignore the Tatooine problem for a decade. Are
>the mighty Jedi afraid of a couple aliens who are impervious to
>mind tricks? Do they only guard justice when it's convenient for
>them?
They're the guardians of peace and justice *in the Republic.*
Tatooine is explicitly described as being outside the Republic --
it's why the little blue flying guy wouldn't accept Qui-Gon's
Republic credits. The slave trade is not under their jurisdiction.
Individual Jedi clearly aren't above cheating to free individual
slaves, when the opportunity arises; but to end the slave trade
as a whole would require the Republic to go to war against the
Hutt. The Republic is too busy sinking into decadence to bother.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Ross TenEyck
>(Nitpick: the moon of Yavin, not Endor. Endor was where an
>established Imperial base, commanded by "a *legion*" of the
>Emperor's "best troops" couldn't withstand an attack of three-foot-
>tall savages with spears, backed by less than half a dozen Rebels
>armed only with personal blasters. *They* weren't under orders to
>let the attack succeed.)
You're neglecting the Ewok's enormous reality-altering powers; against
that sort of thing, the poor mortal Stormtroopers never had a chance.
It's clear that the Ewoks had enormous reality-altering powers,
because how else could they materialize dozens of large booby-traps
in the woods all around the shield generator station? You know, the
booby-traps that, if built by hand, would have required days of
highly-coordinated effort by vast numbers of Ewoks, felling trees
and shifting boulders; but instead conveniently appeared overnight...
Why they didn't simply use their mighty powers directly against the
Stormtroopers we can only speculate. Perhaps they were wary of
revealing their true abilities to the Rebels, and chose to work
in a roundabout fashion while hoping -- correctly -- that the Rebels
would be too stupid to pay attention. Or, perhaps, they used their
own version of the Jedi mind trick to fuzz the Rebels' minds, to
keep them from wondering.
I suspect the Ewoks were actually the secret masters and trainers
of the Sith (Yoda, fulfilling a similar purpose for the Jedi, also
took care to look small and non-threatening.) Why do you think
Palpatine chose to build the second Death Star around *that* particular
moon? His betrayal by his masters was most likely due to internal
Sith politics.
Aaron P. Brezenski
Ross TenEyck <ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
>You're neglecting the Ewok's enormous reality-altering powers; against
>that sort of thing, the poor mortal Stormtroopers never had a chance.
>
>It's clear that the Ewoks had enormous reality-altering powers,
>because how else could they materialize dozens of large booby-traps
>in the woods all around the shield generator station? You know, the
>booby-traps that, if built by hand, would have required days of
>highly-coordinated effort by vast numbers of Ewoks, felling trees
>and shifting boulders; but instead conveniently appeared overnight...
>
>Why they didn't simply use their mighty powers directly against the
>Stormtroopers we can only speculate. Perhaps they were wary of
>revealing their true abilities to the Rebels, and chose to work
>in a roundabout fashion while hoping -- correctly -- that the Rebels
>would be too stupid to pay attention. Or, perhaps, they used their
>own version of the Jedi mind trick to fuzz the Rebels' minds, to
>keep them from wondering.
>
>I suspect the Ewoks were actually the secret masters and trainers
>of the Sith (Yoda, fulfilling a similar purpose for the Jedi, also
>took care to look small and non-threatening.) Why do you think
>Palpatine chose to build the second Death Star around *that* particular
>moon? His betrayal by his masters was most likely due to internal
>Sith politics.
[hand striking forehead]
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Sea Wasp" <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
>news:3CFB85...@wizvax.net...
>> Harry Erwin wrote:
>> >
>> > I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
>> > commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
>> > the plot
>>
>> ? C'mon, the plot, what there was of it, was trivial to follow.
>>
>> The plotTING was clumsy, though the machinations of Palpatine/Sidious
>> make it sorta fun to follow.
>>
>> I'm more convinced, now that I've seen the film, that Anakin is using
>> Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
>
>I truly wish that I respected Lucas enough to consider anything in that film
>intentional. I can't believe anything in it, which makes it difficult to
>get past "Poor acting, crappy dialog., cool spaceships. And why don't they
>just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went out with Adam West."
And, for an alternative viewpoint, check out this:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/printedition/calendar/la-000039007jun03.story?null
(requires registration, but it's free)
Brenda W. Clough
Tch! I bet Watto's union (Tatooine United Teamsters) bribed them.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Brenda W. Clough
>(Was anyone else thinking "Restraining order!" during the fireplace
>scene?)
>
I was thinking that it's unfair, when you already have the boy by the
knackers, to -twist- them like that.
rr...@lmi.net
Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote:
>The guy they've got writing the Norwegian subtitles for those
>movies (ever since the updated rerelease of the original movies
>five years ago) fucked up the translation of "light saber" in
>just that manner (light = undark and light = unheavy are two
>different words, here). And he's still got the job, even though
>he's not repeated *that* mistake, there are many others to make
>(on Episode II he demonstrated that he does not know the difference
>between "invincible" and "invisible").
I was just watching _Metropolis, and there is one scene in it that has
English subtitles. Which closely, but not exactly, match what the
English dubbing says for that scene. No, I'm not sure why there are
both for that particular scene, nor why they didn't make them the
same. I was just confused about whether I should be listening, or
reading, because I found out that you can't do both. You get a bit
lost when they don't match up.
Rebecca
Joseph Michael Bay
>I was just watching _Metropolis, and there is one scene in it that has
>English subtitles. Which closely, but not exactly, match what the
>English dubbing says for that scene. No, I'm not sure why there are
>both for that particular scene, nor why they didn't make them the
>same. I was just confused about whether I should be listening, or
>reading, because I found out that you can't do both. You get a bit
>lost when they don't match up.
I recently saw _Monsoon Wedding_ (GREAT film, by the way), and it's partly
in Hindi(?) subtitled in English, but there are parts where the actors, which
is to say the characters, are speaking English, and there are still subtitles
which say almost but not quite what they're saying.
--
Joseph M. Bay Lamont Sanford Junior University
Putting the "harm" in molecular pharmacology since 1998
t3H quIc/< 6roWn Ph0x0r jUmP3D ovER T3h 14zY do9 !( @|=>
Johnny1A
No.
Folks, people are reading way too much into that particular scene.
Padme has made it fairly clear almost from the time that Anakin and
she meet again that she's interested. Her security chief knows it,
too. Recall what he said to Obi Wan before they left. She's torn
between her perception of her duties and her attraction. She probably
changed her mind have a dozen times over the course of preparing for
the evening what she was going to do.
The dialogue, incidentally, is only clunky on her side. In the case
of Anakin, with as little experience with the opposite sex as he has
had, it makes a certain amount of sense. It's not as if he's had any
practice at expressing his feelings anyway!
Incidentally, unless he is using mind control on her, he neither
forced nor even hinted at forcing _anything_ on her. There may well
have been mind control involved, but Anakin is _not_ the logical
suspect.
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
> Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
>
> >In article <Y8NK8.1099$PiZe.5...@news2.randori.com>,
> >Wavemaker <jabber...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>"Sea Wasp" wrote:
> >>
>
> >>>I'm more convinced, now that I've seen the film, that Anakin is using
> >>>Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
> >>>
>
> >>playing tricks on her, but I found the Anakin/Amidala relationship
> >>unbelievable and the dialog exchanged between them stilted and stale. There
> >>was no real chemistry between them, so when she finally fell for the guy
> >>after his incessant whining, it came across as forced. Um, but then if
> >>Anakin is using the force... it makes a bit more sense.
> >>
> >
> >Specifically, the dialog establishes that Anakin dislikes and distrusts
> >politicians and does not believe in democracy; he would prefer a
> >dictatorship of the capable man. (Probably ideas Palpatine is coaching
> >him in.) In other words, he rejects everything Padme values most
> >highly. This is not a good basis for a love affair, and Padme comes
> >across as smart enough to know that.
True, but then he was _mostly_ kidding, (he's not Darth Vader YET),
and she thinks he was entirely kidding. Don't read more into the
scene than is there.
> >
> >For me the clincher was "I've been dying a little bit inside every day
> >since you came back." If I were trying to depict this as simply
> >young love, I would not put it that way; it's a nasty line. I think she
> >*is* dying inside, a little more every day. I hope for a scene in
> >ep. 3 that explores this.
There's nothing in that rather clunky line to explore. All she's
saying there is that she's been just as frustrated as Anakin. It _is_
a clunky line, though.
> >
> >Ep. 2 can be a very dark and bitter movie if one's inclined to take it
> >that way: corrupt and incapable Jedi,
> >
>
> Are they corrupt, or merely spectacularly incompetent? (I incline
> towards corrupt, myself.)
>
> Padme under the influence of mind control does make many things more
> palatable. Like the way, after agreeing with Anakin that a relationship
> is impossible, she immediately shifts to low cut and filmy garments.
>
> Brenda
The simpler and more likely explanation is that she was telling
herself more than Anakin that the relationship was impossible, like
the dieter who keeps right on opening the potato chips while insisting
he's not going to eat them.
If you're looking for mind control, the logical candidate is
_Palpatine_. Who sent the assassins against her, directly or
indirectly? Who was it suggested that Amidala be guarded by the Jedi
to begin with? With his resources, knowing that Obi Wan and Anakin
were back would be trivial, and since they already know her they are
the most likely choices. If necessary, he could always suggest them.
Then, later, who is it that urges Anakin to follow his feelings? Who
is it that, in the end, actually convinces Padme to go back to Naboo?
"She will not refuse an executive order."
I think Palpatine is trying to push Anakin and Padme together. He may
well have manipulated his, her, or both minds. But there just isn't
any evidence in the film to show that Anakin has fallen that far
already. What hints we have had about his coming fall seem to orbit
more around Anger than Desire anyway.
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
> "Sea Wasp" <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
> news:3CFB85...@wizvax.net...
> > Harry Erwin wrote:
> > >
> > > I finally got around to seeing it yesterday. As some UK reviewer
> > > commented, at least the clothes were very stylish. I couldn't figure out
> > > the plot
> >
> > ? C'mon, the plot, what there was of it, was trivial to follow.
> >
> > The plotTING was clumsy, though the machinations of Palpatine/Sidious
> > make it sorta fun to follow.
> >
> > Jedi Mind Tricks on Amidala. Maybe not consciously, but...
>
> intentional. I can't believe anything in it, which makes it difficult to
> get past "Poor acting, crappy dialog., cool spaceships. And why don't they
> just shoot their victims? Elaborate death traps went out with Adam West."
The real reason? _Star Wars_, the whole series, is consciously based
on the old movie theatre serials along the lines of Flash Gordon and
Buck Rogers, or westerns where the hero is tied to the barrel of
dynamite at the moment of the cliff-hanger. It's _intentionally_
derivative of those older sources, and Lucas has said as much in the
past.
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
Or just maybe, Yoda and Obi Wan are simply no match for Palpatine? Occam's Razor...
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
>
> Fair enough, that can work as a story line. The trouble is (as I see
> it) is that Lucas doesn't put enough effort into establishing what is
> going on in people's heads. He puts cues in here and there, but not
> quite enough of them. I opine that he sacrifices too much story to
> get in more action.
I agree there. In _ROTJ_ the speeder bike sequence goes on way too
long, ditto the pod race sequence in TPM. The later was a bit better,
but could have been cut a little shorter. I think half the reason it
was there was to have the opening sequence reminiscent of _Ben Hur_
and the like old movies.
Shermanlee
Ian Galbraith
:In article <WMPWHAAzkI$8E...@deira.demon.co.uk>, Martin Hardgrave
:<mar...@deira.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
:> How about Lucas designed the computer game (car chase, production line
:> etc) first and built a film around it?
:I recently read where Lucas says the production line was something he
:thought up after main filming had ended. He may think it's cool, I
:think it's filler.
He thought up, or his marketing people thought up as a possible game?
:I think it would've been improved if they'd gone to Tatooine first, so
:that Padme would have gotten to know Anakin before they "fell in love".
:Failing that, Jedi mind tricks are the only rational explanation.
:(Was anyone else thinking "Restraining order!" during the fireplace
:scene?)
I was thinking that in their first meeting in the film.
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become
irrational in order to prove that you care, or indeed why it
should be necessary to prove it at all." -Avon, Blakes 7
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:Fair enough, that can work as a story line. The trouble is (as I see
:it) is that Lucas doesn't put enough effort into establishing what is
:going on in people's heads. He puts cues in here and there, but not
:quite enough of them. I opine that he sacrifices too much story to
:get in more action.
Except that the time spent on Anakin and Padme and the lack of action in
AOTC is one of the reason its so boring.
:I like Padme succumbing to Jedi mind tricks though. It explains so
:much.
Me too, although I have to say I agree with another poster that its pure
fanwank, there's almost no justification for it in the film and
apparently the book. Chalk it up to another lost opportunity for Lucas.
The other major lost opportunity was Dooku not really being a good guy
who was seceding from the Republic for the reasons he stated to Obi Wan.
Johnny1A
> Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <lei...@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>
> >As for being dumb about "stuff like that", well, in the real world
> >there are no limits to just how dumb otherwise smart and apparently
> >mature people can turn out to be.
>
> think I would have enjoyed the movie a lot more if Padme had been
> allowed--not to show good sense; she *did* show good sense--to reap
> the rewards of her good sense.
>
What rewards? I'm not absolutely clear what she thinks she gains by
_not_ getting involved. Senators, as far as I can see, are not
forbidden to mate, yet she acts as if she is.
I actually suspect, if Padme is as smart as she appears to be, that
being a Senator under Chancellor Palpatine must be a supremely
frustrating experience, since in the end he always gets his way
anyway, as often as not by your own actions working out in some
convoluted way that he comprehends and you don't.
I have a hunch that Padme senses, maybe subconsciously, that the
Senate is mainly dancing on someone's strings, and is tired of it.
One thing she and Anakin do have in common is a rebellious streak.
(Of course, it's very easy to manipulate people with rebellious
streaks, as Palpatine probably knows.)
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
>
> I am banking that Sidious' teacher in the Dark Side was a student of
> Yoda's.
If so, it wouldn't prove much, unless you could show that a large
_percentage_ of his students have fallen. If he's trained 500 Jedi,
and 75 of them have become adepts of the Dark Side, that's an 85%
success rate, even with 75 Dark Side wielders running loose.
>
> >Padme under the influence of mind control does make many things more
> >palatable. Like the way, after agreeing with Anakin that a relationship
> >is impossible, she immediately shifts to low cut and filmy garments.
>
> Good point. For someone as level-headed and used to publicity as
> Padme, that was awfully dumb. Being alone with him in romantic contexts
> was not smart either, but maybe she couldn't avoid that (he being
> her bodyguard and all) though I note that Obi-wan and Anakin were
> not in her bedchamber on Coruscant.
She could easily have avoided it. She just didn't really want to. It
wasn't Anakin she was fighting, it was herself, and maybe Palpatine,
and she had mostly lost by the time they even set foot on Naboo again.
For that matter, why do you think she was so insistent on taking
Anakin all the way back to her home territory on Naboo? Even Anakin
questioned the soundness of that, and it is bad judgement. With an
entire planet to chose from, her family home is the _last_ place she
should want to go from a security standpoint. But I think she just
wanted to bring Anakin to meet the kinfolks, consciously or not.
>
> Sure, teens are sometimes dumb this way, but Padme? She seems fairly
> mature.
I've known fairly mature people in their forties and fifties to behave
in not utterly dissimilar ways. This sort of thing is hardly a
teenager monopoly, though perhaps it ought to be.
>
> My husband and I cheered when we finally saw her in reasonable clothes.
> If assassins were hounding me, I wouldn't be wearing long, trailing,
> gauzy robes, no way! Especially if I were a wonderful athlete and
> apparently trained martial artist (given the ending scenes).
That last is _very_ interesting. On Naboo, Padme mentions that she
was part of something called a _legislative youth group_, which I took
to be a training program for children thought to have potential as
politicians. Sort of a Sparta type arrangement, only instead of
soldiers we train rulers.
That's very odd. But it echoes the Jedi's equally odd practice of
recruiting very young children. That may be something that permeates
the increasingly corrupt and entropic Republican culture overall. But
it would explain Padme's athletic and combat skills, if she had been
trained in them from youth.
Apparently the monarch of Naboo is an elected position, which Lucas
hinted at in TPM. But the Republic looks a lot like a very old, very
tired and rather corrupt democratic republic, and have it's traditions
are probably twisted out of their original shapes. The pool of
candidates, at least on Naboo, may be very limited, restricted to
those trained from youth as possibilities.
Historically, rulers trained from youth for the job, such as carefully
trained princes or kings come to the throne in early childhood, don't
present a terribly impressive record.
Shermanlee
Brenda W. Clough
Then that makes the Jedi, and Obi-wan and Yoda especially, dumber than
rocks. The security chief knows it, she knows it, Anakin knows it, but
the Jedi don't? They;re so blind they should be using seeing-eye dogs
(although Yoda's already tapping around with that cane). I suppose it's
possible that instead they're corrupt and decadent enough to say, at the
end of the movie, "OK, Anny-boy, go off with her and sow the wild oats
and then come back and be a Jedi again."
Johnny1A
>
> I think it would've been improved if they'd gone to Tatooine first, so
> that Padme would have gotten to know Anakin before they "fell in love".
> Failing that, Jedi mind tricks are the only rational explanation.
In a universe where the Force actually exists, it could just be Fate.
That would, in such a place, _be_ a rational explanation.
Shermanlee
Rick
news:3CFD83EC...@erols.com...
> Johnny1A wrote:
> >Padme has made it fairly clear almost from the time that Anakin and
> >she meet again that she's interested. Her security chief knows it,
> >too. Recall what he said to Obi Wan before they left. She's torn
> >between her perception of her duties and her attraction. She probably
> >changed her mind have a dozen times over the course of preparing for
> >the evening what she was going to do.
> >
>
> Then that makes the Jedi, and Obi-wan and Yoda especially, dumber than
> rocks. The security chief knows it, she knows it, Anakin knows it, but
> the Jedi don't? They;re so blind they should be using seeing-eye dogs
> (although Yoda's already tapping around with that cane). I suppose it's
> possible that instead they're corrupt and decadent enough to say, at the
> end of the movie, "OK, Anny-boy, go off with her and sow the wild oats
> and then come back and be a Jedi again."
>
Well, the Jedi are all celibate virgins, apparently, so maybe they don't
even know what to look for.
It's also been made clear that their powers aren't working correctly.
Mike Schilling
news:adi36g$bu0$1...@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no...
> >message news:<adgrei$1cru$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
> >>
> >> mature.
> >
>
> I think she was supposed to be 14 in the previous movie and 24 in this
> one. A stretch, maybe, but not impossible.
Does Weird Al count as canon?
Ahh, do you see him hitting on the queen
Though he's just nine and she's fourteen
Yeah, he's probably gonna marry her someday
http://www.sagabegins.com/lyrics.html
Brian Love
(in message <0dmqfucqeifeqi01r...@4ax.com>):
> And, for an alternative viewpoint, check out this:
>
> http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/printedition/calendar/la-000039007jun03.
> story?null
>
> (requires registration, but it's free)
I thought the article was vey funny. Perhaps not what the author intended.
There's no evidence that Lucas is skilled enough to pull that off on
purpose. Much less that he would use that skill to subvert his own artwork.
Deconstructions do tend to feed off _other_ people's contructions.
--
Brian Love
Freelance Otaku
jere7my tho?rpe
"Rick" <sf.w...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Well, the Jedi are all celibate virgins, apparently, so maybe they don't
> even know what to look for.
Lucas has said in interviews that the Jedi are allowed to sow oats,
but not to form romantic attachments.
----j7y
--
*************************************************************************
jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "Homo sum: humani nihil a me
http://homepage.mac.com/jere7my alienum puto." ---Terentius
Robert Carnegie
Now, I wouldn't go _that_ far. :-)#
Lee Ann Rucker
<apbr...@dt1gate.ra.intel.com> wrote:
> >(Was anyone else thinking "Restraining order!" during the fireplace
> >scene?)
>
> Actually, I was thinking that during several scenes *before* the fireplace
> scene, but he'd already given her not-so-subtle indications of his feelings
> for her before that scene. You could even assert that the time to call the
> Jedi Council and ask for a new assignee to protect her would have been
> immediately after she told him he was making her feel uncomfortable.
>
Yeah, they were all creepy, but that one definitely tops them.
Joseph Nebus
>I agree there. In _ROTJ_ the speeder bike sequence goes on way too
>long, ditto the pod race sequence in TPM. The later was a bit better,
>but could have been cut a little shorter. I think half the reason it
>was there was to have the opening sequence reminiscent of _Ben Hur_
>and the like old movies.
I thought the pod racer scene was in there to establish that
Racer X was secretly Anakin's older brother Rex, who disappeared in
the Tuskan mountain range several years earlier.
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Scudder
> rr...@lmi.net writes:
>
> >I was just watching _Metropolis, and there is one scene in it that has
> >English subtitles. Which closely, but not exactly, match what the
> >English dubbing says for that scene. No, I'm not sure why there are
> >both for that particular scene, nor why they didn't make them the
> >same. I was just confused about whether I should be listening, or
> >reading, because I found out that you can't do both. You get a bit
> >lost when they don't match up.
>
> I recently saw _Monsoon Wedding_ (GREAT film, by the way), and it's partly
> in Hindi(?) subtitled in English, but there are parts where the actors, which
> is to say the characters, are speaking English, and there are still subtitles
> which say almost but not quite what they're saying.
ObUrbanLegend: Hong Kong film, has a black American character who
speaks mostly in Chinese, but in one scene he gets upset & screams
"Motherf***er[1]!"
Subtitle: "Jerk!"
[1] Pronounced "MU(DH) ur fu splat splat SPLAT ur"
Susan Stepney
news:adi36g$bu0$1...@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no:
> In article <55923148.02060...@posting.google.com>,
> Tom Scudder <tom...@spidernet.com.cy> wrote:
>>mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote in
>>message news:<adgrei$1cru$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>>>
>>> Sure, teens are sometimes dumb this way, but Padme? She seems fairly
>>> mature.
>>
>>And she'd have to be in her late 20s, at least, by internal chronology.
>
> I think she was supposed to be 14 in the previous movie and 24 in this
> one. A stretch, maybe, but not impossible.
14? Queen at 14, okay, that can happen, but *elected* queen (whatever
that's supposed to be?!) at 14? Huh?
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Susan Stepney tel +44 1223 254890 step...@logica.com
Logica UK Ltd, Betjeman House, 104 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1LQ, UK
http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/ http://www.logica.com/
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Susan Stepney <step...@logica.com> wrote:
>lei...@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote in
>news:adi36g$bu0$1...@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no:
>
>> In article <55923148.02060...@posting.google.com>,
>> Tom Scudder <tom...@spidernet.com.cy> wrote:
>>>mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote in
>>>message news:<adgrei$1cru$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>>>>
>>>> Sure, teens are sometimes dumb this way, but Padme? She seems fairly
>>>> mature.
>>>
>>>And she'd have to be in her late 20s, at least, by internal chronology.
>>
>> I think she was supposed to be 14 in the previous movie and 24 in this
>> one. A stretch, maybe, but not impossible.
>
>14? Queen at 14, okay, that can happen, but *elected* queen (whatever
>that's supposed to be?!) at 14? Huh?
Yah, well, it *is* Star Wars, so we really shouldn't expect the
pol sci to make any more sense than the physics.
Then again, there have been monarchies on Earth where the monarch
was elected, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have even
used time-limited terms. Maybe the pool of eligible candidates is
limited to a few select families with the correct ancestry, and
the only people with the right to vote are the nobility, and they
elected (as will happen) someone who looked like an easily manipulated
(and decorative) figurehead?
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Nyrath the nearly wise
> And Kes in _Star Trek: Voyager_ isn't even from a galaxy far, far
> away (as far as I recall), and she had a natural life expectancy
> in single figures Perhaps on name-of-planet-forgotten they grow
> up quick, but dumb.
And extinct. The idiotic writers said in the script
that parents on Kes' planet only have one child.
Lee DeRaud
The 'Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon' DVD is like that: turns out the
dubbed English dialog makes a *lot* more sense than the English
subtitles, which is how I saw it originally. Turning both on at once
is a really bad idea.
The only odd part of the dubbing is that, for no apparent reason, they
had someone *else* dub Chow Yun Fat's lines, and it just didn't sound
right, at least not for someone who has seen his English-language
films.
Lee
Heather Garvey
> "Rick" <sf.w...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Well, the Jedi are all celibate virgins, apparently, so maybe they don't
>> even know what to look for.
>
> Lucas has said in interviews that the Jedi are allowed to sow oats,
>but not to form romantic attachments.
I think the point is that the Jedi HAVE to put duty first,
which can be extremely difficult when your loved one is in danger.
(Which they of course melodramatically showed when Padme crashed in the
desert and Anakin was ready to stop the chase and return for her.)
However, you'd think that they'd be used to it - the Master/Apprentice
relationship is probably very deep and strong and yet they know that
the two of them will often be in danger. Obi-wan was dangerously angry
and emotional when Qui-Gon was killed, but he has been trained to get
past that and fight from "his happy place". It's not impossible for
a romantic relationship, but I imagine it would be forbidden until one
was a Master and in better control. I would think that there are a lot
of Jedi-Jedi couples, too, since they'd have the same sense of duty and
expect to die before being used against their loved one.
--
Heather Garvey "The school has lost its funding for textbooks, so
ra...@xnet.com you've all been given wildlife survival manuals.
Today you'll be quizzed on how to skin a moose."
-- Miss Bitters, _Invader ZIM_
Sean O'Hara
>
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> writes:
>
> >Their PR firm claims they're "the guardians of peace and justice" --
> >a motto Obi Wan repeats when persuading Luke to join the cause. But
> >look at the facts -- in TPM the Jedi dispatch a master and his
> >apprentice to deal with the Naboo trade dispute (this is well before
> >it turns into an armed conflict). At the same time they learn of a
> >thriving slave trade on the planet of Tatooine, yet despite training
> >a freed slave, the Jedi ignore the Tatooine problem for a decade. Are
> >the mighty Jedi afraid of a couple aliens who are impervious to
> >mind tricks? Do they only guard justice when it's convenient for
> >them?
>
> They're the guardians of peace and justice *in the Republic.*
> Tatooine is explicitly described as being outside the Republic --
> it's why the little blue flying guy wouldn't accept Qui-Gon's
> Republic credits. The slave trade is not under their jurisdiction.
I don't agree. In the original trilogy, Tatooine is clearly under
Imperial jurisdiction. There's no evidence that the Empire is
expansionist, but rather it'ss concerned about maintaining order
within its realm. To me this suggests that Tatooine is like (the
mythical version of) the Wild West -- a place technically within the
domain of a government, but so far out of the way that the laws are
meaningless.
The fact that the Hutts have effective control over Tatooine is
just one more sign that the Jedi are sleeping on the job.
> Individual Jedi clearly aren't above cheating to free individual
> slaves, when the opportunity arises; but to end the slave trade
> as a whole would require the Republic to go to war against the
> Hutt. The Republic is too busy sinking into decadence to bother.
>
Yet again, more proof that the Jedi are incompetent. Whatever you
say about the Empire, you must admit that the Sith were far more
effective at administering justice and maintaining order.
--
Sean O辿ara
"Took up a noble cause called the Clone Wars
Cuz life's not all about girls and cars and
Getting f***ed up in f***ed up bars."
--MC Chris, "Fett's Vette" http://www.mcchris.com
Sean O'Hara
>
> myrna...@aol.comspamless (David Johnston) wrote in
> news:20020604174914...@mb-fa.aol.com:
> >...
> > Sort of like in the first movie. Everyone mocks the bad
> > marksmanship of storm troopers on the Death Star, and ignores
> > that they'd been ordered to let the escapees
> > go so that they would lead the DS to Endor.
>
> And what explains the bad marksmanship of stormtroopers in the
> other two movies? :-)
>
It's not bad marksmanship; it's suppressive fire. Despite Rebel
propaganda, the Stormtroopers don't want to kill anyone if they
don't have to.
Steve Hilberg
>Ross TenEyck wrote:
>> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> writes:
>> >Their PR firm claims they're "the guardians of peace and justice" --
>> >a motto Obi Wan repeats when persuading Luke to join the cause. But
>> >look at the facts -- in TPM the Jedi dispatch a master and his
>> >apprentice to deal with the Naboo trade dispute (this is well before
>> >it turns into an armed conflict). At the same time they learn of a
>> >thriving slave trade on the planet of Tatooine, yet despite training
>> >a freed slave, the Jedi ignore the Tatooine problem for a decade. Are
>> >the mighty Jedi afraid of a couple aliens who are impervious to
>> >mind tricks? Do they only guard justice when it's convenient for
>> >them?
>>
>> They're the guardians of peace and justice *in the Republic.*
>> Tatooine is explicitly described as being outside the Republic --
>> it's why the little blue flying guy wouldn't accept Qui-Gon's
>> Republic credits. The slave trade is not under their jurisdiction.
>I don't agree. In the original trilogy, Tatooine is clearly under
>Imperial jurisdiction. There's no evidence that the Empire is
>expansionist, but rather it'ss concerned about maintaining order
>within its realm. To me this suggests that Tatooine is like (the
>mythical version of) the Wild West -- a place technically within the
>domain of a government, but so far out of the way that the laws are
>meaningless.
Is it? It seems more like a situation where the Empire decided they
were going to do whatever they pleased and not worry what the locals
thought. In the original trilogy, they weren't trying to topple the
power structure of Tatooine -- the Hutts probably didn't give a crap
if the Emperor wanted to zap a couple of farmers and arrest a nobody
farmboy and some crazy hermit.
On the other hand, if the Republic (which isn't nearly as frightening
as the Empire -- remember they didn't even have a standing army before
Palpatine created it) tried to come in and tell the Hutts what to do,
they could give them the finger and ignore whatever stupid Jedi came
to try and tell them what's what. Tatooine seems to have an abnormally
large number of non-Force vulnerable species too; the Hutts and whatever
Watto is for example.
>The fact that the Hutts have effective control over Tatooine is
>just one more sign that the Jedi are sleeping on the job.
It's more a sign that there's absolutely nothing of any real worth on
the planet and the Republic couldn't care less what happens there. I
didn't see a big outcry in the US about what was going on in Afghanistan
before we wanted to build an oil pipeline there and they started hosting
terrorists that actually did something to us. If the Hutts want to have
their own little principality on a crappy planet at the edge of space,
why should the Republic give a damn? Does Tatooine have any useful
exports? "Moisture" isn't exactly in big demand on 99% of the Republic's
planets, I'm sure, and there's much easier ways of getting it than
importing it from a dry planet. Why do you think the Hutts set up shop
there in the first place? It has nothing of value, so no one is going to
care if they want to run a galactic criminal empire there.
>> Individual Jedi clearly aren't above cheating to free individual
>> slaves, when the opportunity arises; but to end the slave trade
>> as a whole would require the Republic to go to war against the
>> Hutt. The Republic is too busy sinking into decadence to bother.
>>
>Yet again, more proof that the Jedi are incompetent. Whatever you
>say about the Empire, you must admit that the Sith were far more
>effective at administering justice and maintaining order.
Well, that's true, and the KGB was a great deal more efficient than
current Russian law enforcement. When you have no scruples, it's very
easy to keep crime to a reasonable level....
--
Steve Hilberg <Necromancer> CITES Workstation Support Group
<hil...@uiuc.edu> KB9TEV
Member, APAGear I don't even know what CITES stands
http://www.apagear.org for, so I don't speak for them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As we were forged we shall return, perhaps some day. | VNV Nation,
I will remember you and wonder who we were." | "Further"
Jim Cambias
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
> mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote in
message news:<adgrei$1cru$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>...
>
> >
> > I am banking that Sidious' teacher in the Dark Side was a student of
> > Yoda's.
>
> If so, it wouldn't prove much, unless you could show that a large
> _percentage_ of his students have fallen. If he's trained 500 Jedi,
> and 75 of them have become adepts of the Dark Side, that's an 85%
> success rate, even with 75 Dark Side wielders running loose.
>
This reminds me of General Turgidson defending the Human Reliability
Screening program after General Ripper has gone bonkers. "I think it's
very unfair to condemn the entire program just because of one little
failure."
>
> That last is _very_ interesting. On Naboo, Padme mentions that she
> was part of something called a _legislative youth group_, which I took
> to be a training program for children thought to have potential as
> politicians. Sort of a Sparta type arrangement, only instead of
> soldiers we train rulers.
>
"Legislative Youth Group" makes me think of some kind of weird hybrid of
Mao's Red Guards and Congressional interns. They wear uniforms and chant
slogans like "Death to the running-dog opponents of the Omnibus Farm
Appropriations Bill!"
Cambias
Steve Hilberg
>> myrna...@aol.comspamless (David Johnston) wrote:
>> > Sort of like in the first movie. Everyone mocks the bad
>> > marksmanship of storm troopers on the Death Star, and ignores
>> > that they'd been ordered to let the escapees
>> > go so that they would lead the DS to Endor.
>>
>> And what explains the bad marksmanship of stormtroopers in the
>> other two movies? :-)
>It's not bad marksmanship; it's suppressive fire. Despite Rebel
>propaganda, the Stormtroopers don't want to kill anyone if they
>don't have to.
No to mention they were pretty damn bad-ass in AotC. :) The bloodline
must have gotten a little diluted by the time of ANH; although you can
see that they do a fine job of gunning down the Rebel soldiers aboard
the Tantive IV. Essentially, as long as they aren't fighting the main
characters, they do pretty well. :)
Besides, they just get a bad rap. Anyone who has seen "Troops" knows
the REAL story of the Stormtroopers. :)
Peter Meilinger
: "Michael S. Schiffer" wrote:
:> myrna...@aol.comspamless (David Johnston) wrote in
:> news:20020604174914...@mb-fa.aol.com:
:> >...
:> > Sort of like in the first movie. Everyone mocks the bad
:> > marksmanship of storm troopers on the Death Star, and ignores
:> > that they'd been ordered to let the escapees
:> > go so that they would lead the DS to Endor.
:>
:> And what explains the bad marksmanship of stormtroopers in the
:> other two movies? :-)
:
: It's not bad marksmanship; it's suppressive fire. Despite Rebel
: propaganda, the Stormtroopers don't want to kill anyone if they
: don't have to.
Wasn't it an ordinary Stormtrooper who set his blaster on stun
to knock out Leia in the first movie? If they didn't want to
kill anyone, set blasters on stun and shoot straight.
An online review of AOTC had a quote from George Lucas to the
effect of "I've got 50 stormtroopers shooting at 4 heroes from
10 feet away, and they all miss. No one's going to buy this."
I don't know if Lucas really said that, but I like it.
Pete
Justin Fang
Steve Hilberg <hil...@tower.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On the other hand, if the Republic (which isn't nearly as frightening
>as the Empire -- remember they didn't even have a standing army before
>Palpatine created it) tried to come in and tell the Hutts what to do,
>they could give them the finger and ignore whatever stupid Jedi came
>to try and tell them what's what. Tatooine seems to have an abnormally
>large number of non-Force vulnerable species too; the Hutts and whatever
>Watto is for example.
Immunity to Jedi mind tricks does not confer resistance to lightsabers,
though. "We call that aggressive negotiation," or however that line
went.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Doug Dawson
>> That last is _very_ interesting. On Naboo, Padme mentions that she
>> was part of something called a _legislative youth group_, which I took
>> to be a training program for children thought to have potential as
>> politicians. Sort of a Sparta type arrangement, only instead of
>> soldiers we train rulers.
>>
>"Legislative Youth Group" makes me think of some kind of weird hybrid of
>Mao's Red Guards and Congressional interns. They wear uniforms and chant
>slogans like "Death to the running-dog opponents of the Omnibus Farm
>Appropriations Bill!"
For what it's worth, I spent several years participating in a program
called Youth Legislature. They hauled a bunch of middle-schoolers down to
the state capital, which we took over for...a long weekend, I think, or
half a week, when the actual legislature was out of session. Each
participant came with a bill, which we tried to shepherd through the
whole process. It was an interesting experience, though I've no idea
how many participants ever went into politics.
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
> The fact that the Hutts have effective control over Tatooine is
> just one more sign that the Jedi are sleeping on the job.
As opposed to the firm Imperial grip on the planet twenty years
later?
>Ross TenEyck wrote:
>> Individual Jedi clearly aren't above cheating to free
>> individual slaves, when the opportunity arises; but to end the
>> slave trade as a whole would require the Republic to go to war
>> against the Hutt. The Republic is too busy sinking into
>> decadence to bother.
> Yet again, more proof that the Jedi are incompetent. Whatever
> you say about the Empire, you must admit that the Sith were far
> more effective at administering justice and maintaining order.
I'm not sure you can say that about a regime that lasted less than a
generation, was always just on the verge of eliminating the rebellion
without ever actually managing it, and which apparently collapsed
with the removal of only a few figures at the top. The Imperial
order was explicitly based on terror (if we can believe Tarkin,
anyway), yet the two attempts to build ultimate terror weapons to
secure that order were economically and strategically disastrous for
the Empire.
As for justice, we saw very little of the Imperial justice system
other than the arrest and partial interrogation of one rebel. (Of
course, they let her escape so that they could follow her and destroy
the rebellion in one stroke. And that plan sure worked out well,
didn't it?) Beyond that, we know that Imperial ruthlessness didn't
prevent various shady characters from having quasi-independent fiefs
all over the place, from the Hutts on Tatooine to Lando Calrissian on
Bespin. Nor do the Imperials present more than a cost of doing
business to smugglers (at least when they don't fly into active
combat zones). One can only speculate what Vader's summary
executions did to morale and initiative within the Imperial navy.
What evidence do we have that Imperial justice was more effective
than the (admittedly rather uninspiring) Republic that preceded it?
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Steve Hilberg
True, but I don't think butchering the entirety of the planetary power
structure is really going to be good publicity for the Jedi. Not to
mention that Jedi powers don't confer invulnerability to blasters either.
You'll notice that there's quite a few dead Jedi in that last scene in
AotC (admittedly, they were very badly outnumbered, but I have the
feeling the Hutts aren't short on bodyguards or armies of toughs either).
Michael S. Schiffer
> "Michael S. Schiffer" wrote:
>...
>> And what explains the bad marksmanship of stormtroopers in the
>> other two movies? :-)
> It's not bad marksmanship; it's suppressive fire. Despite Rebel
> propaganda, the Stormtroopers don't want to kill anyone if they
> don't have to.
Given the results of that reluctance in RotJ, the stormtroopers have
a remarkably generous interpretation of "don't have to". :-)
("Better that the Empire fall and the Emperor die than that we shed
the blood of an Ewok.")
(Note to Emperor Palpatine: recheck criteria for evaluating whether a
particular legion actually consists of your "best troops". In
particular, increase weighting for "willingness to shoot to kill when
under enemy attack".)
Robert Carnegie
Oops.
(1) "Each"? The Ocampa did all appear to be either male or female,
but who doesn't? ;-)
(2) Perhaps living with the Caretaker or with the Kazon had
blunted their enthusiasm for having children, or simply their
fertility, so _those_ Ocampa limited their families.
(3) They use replicators to make up the deficiency.
Also with the Caretaker, I read this non-Trek novel where the
world computer decided that the sun was about to turn supernova,
so it switched off the entire population's fertility. The
Caretaker might have decided to run the population down.
Or if you're referring to the story set on Voyager where Kes becomes
fertile for the one and only time - well, if that's just their nature
wherever they are, then yes, that _does_ look bad, unless they have
many more multiple births than we do. Did they really say that
Ocampa couples never have more than one kid?
Maybe they just marry out a _whole_ lot.
David Johnston
>Imperial jurisdiction. There's no evidence that the Empire is
>expansionist, but rather it'ss concerned about maintaining order
>within its realm.
On the contrary. One piece of evidence that
the Empire is expansionist is that Tatooine was not part of the Republic but
was under Imperial control...sort of.
Ross TenEyck
>>> [snipped -- why don't the Jedi eliminate slavery on Tatooine?]
>> They're the guardians of peace and justice *in the Republic.*
>> Tatooine is explicitly described as being outside the Republic --
>> it's why the little blue flying guy wouldn't accept Qui-Gon's
>> Republic credits. The slave trade is not under their jurisdiction.
>I don't agree. In the original trilogy, Tatooine is clearly under
>Imperial jurisdiction.
Mmm... actually, it's not that clear. The Empire showed up in force
and a bunch of heavily armed stormtroopers barged in and strong-armed
the local populace. That doesn't mean the Empire is nominally in
charge of Tatooine, it just means that they have bigger guns and
the Hutt aren't interested in making a fuss over it.
And the fact that Tatooine was "controlled by the Hutt" was noted
in the database of a Naboo starship. That makes it seem more likely
that it was an official status rather than a de facto but officially
ignored reality.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Jerry Brown
wrote:
ObAirplane: The 'jive'subtitles.
Jive Dude 1: Shi' that honky mo' fo' mess wi' my ol' lady.
[Golly that white fellow should stay away from my wife...]
Got to be runnin' cold upside down his head, you know?
[or I will punch him.]
Jive Dude 2: he ain't gonna lay no more pig rap off on you.
[Yes, he is wrong for doing that.]
JD1: I say, 'ey t' this guy. Somethin' t' say?
[I knew a man in a similar predicament...]
Pray to J, I did the same-ol'-same-ol'!
[and he ended up being sorry.]
JD2: Mack yourself a pro, slick.
[Don't be so naive, Arthur.]
Lot of performers down not take t.c.b.in'.
[Each of us faces a clear moral choice.]
JD1: Hey you know what they say--
[...]
see a broad that get all booty-eyed...
[Early to bed early to rise...]
Both: lay her down and smack-'em-yack-'em.
[makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise]
JD1: Ho! Got to be, you know?
[How true!]
Shiiiiit!
[Golly!]
Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Justin Fang
Steve Hilberg <hil...@tower.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) writes:
>>In article <CrsL8.12088$U7.1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>>Steve Hilberg <hil...@tower.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>On the other hand, if the Republic (which isn't nearly as frightening
>>>as the Empire -- remember they didn't even have a standing army before
>>>Palpatine created it) tried to come in and tell the Hutts what to do,
>>>they could give them the finger and ignore whatever stupid Jedi came
>>>to try and tell them what's what. Tatooine seems to have an abnormally
>>>large number of non-Force vulnerable species too; the Hutts and whatever
>>>Watto is for example.
>>Immunity to Jedi mind tricks does not confer resistance to lightsabers,
>>though. "We call that aggressive negotiation," or however that line
>>went.
>True, but I don't think butchering the entirety of the planetary power
>structure is really going to be good publicity for the Jedi. Not to
>mention that Jedi powers don't confer invulnerability to blasters either.
>You'll notice that there's quite a few dead Jedi in that last scene in
>AotC (admittedly, they were very badly outnumbered, but I have the
>feeling the Hutts aren't short on bodyguards or armies of toughs either).
Oh, sure. Still, it's one thing to laugh at a directive issued by the
Senate on far-off Coruscant, and another thing to laugh at the same
directive when delivered in person by an annoyed Jedi with an activated
lightsaber. (Which seems to be more-or-less what Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
were planning on doing in that scene in TPM when they're cutting through
the door to the bridge of the Trade Federation ship.) There seems to be
a Jedi shortage, though, so probably once the Jedi goes off to deal with
the next urgent problem elsewhere you (or your replacement) can return to
business as normal.
In the more specific case, if Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan orders Watto to free
Anakin *and* his mother ("Actually, I *am* a Jedi." <snap-HMMMMM>),
what's Watto going to do? File a complaint with the Jedi Council?
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Ross TenEyck
>Tatooine seems to have an abnormally
>large number of non-Force vulnerable species too; the Hutts and whatever
>Watto is for example.
Actually, there's no evidence that the Hutt as a species are immune
to the Jedi mind trick. Luke, an inexperienced Jedi, was unable to
control Jabba -- and whatever Jabba's other faults, he was in no way
weak-minded.
Jabba even chastises the head-tentacle guy for being a "weak-minded
fool" -- which would be a little odd if Jabba resisted only by genetic
immunity.
Mike Simone
<snip>
>
> That last is _very_ interesting. On Naboo, Padme mentions that she
> was part of something called a _legislative youth group_, which I took
> to be a training program for children thought to have potential as
> politicians. Sort of a Sparta type arrangement, only instead of
> soldiers we train rulers.
>
Strange setup though, innit?. Train young kids in combat and
lockpicking and the like, plus any actual political stuff, elect them
in their early- to mid-teens, end their terms in about ten years.
Talk about peaking early! "I was queen, now I co-host a talk show
with Jar Jar on Republic-SPAN, but I should have my own show by the
time I'm thirty." Hmmm, maybe Naboo has made some genetic mods to
themselves, so that they age/mature differently. This would explain
why Padme doesn't look any different after ten years, and (maybe) why
she'd not be so weirded out by dating someone she knew as a
pre-adolescent child. Or not.
> That's very odd. But it echoes the Jedi's equally odd practice of
> recruiting very young children. That may be something that permeates
> the increasingly corrupt and entropic Republican culture overall. But
> it would explain Padme's athletic and combat skills, if she had been
> trained in them from youth.
>
The willingness of this society to ship it's children off to be
indoctrinated, er, trained by strangers for dangerous jobs is pretty
interesting.
<snip>
> Historically, rulers trained from youth for the job, such as carefully
> trained princes or kings come to the throne in early childhood, don't
> present a terribly impressive record.
>
> Shermanlee
They need more sympathetic writer/directors. ;)
Heather Garvey
>sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote
>> That's very odd. But it echoes the Jedi's equally odd practice of
>> recruiting very young children.
>
>indoctrinated, er, trained by strangers for dangerous jobs is pretty
>interesting.
The Jedi thing is not all that unexpected, though. Small
children with inate powers should probably get indoctrinated and
trained in managing them before they get powerful enough to hurt
someone. It also helps if they're already taught to handle their
'loaded gun' before they hit adolescence and get all emotionally
fubared.
OTOH, Lucas is incredibly fuzzy about the whole thing in
that you can apparently run around as Jedi-potential all your life,
and it will never ever be a danger to you unless you choose to do
something with it. Leia is supposedly wicked strong in the Force,
but just doesn't use it. Luke is in his late teens when he starts
and it only manifests before that as a skill at piloting and shooting
womprats. You'd think they'd at least "deactivate" kids who are
unsuitable for training, for safety's sake.
Ross TenEyck
>This would explain
>why Padme doesn't look any different after ten years, and (maybe) why
>she'd not be so weirded out by dating someone she knew as a
>pre-adolescent child. Or not.
Well, to be fair, she only knew him as a pre-adolescent for a few
days. (An intense few days, to be sure.) It's not as though she
had spent any significant amount of time with him when he was a
child.