Double on double 1 ?
Eddy Monkey
and the 7 point you are (1) Blocking your opponent (2) 2 points away from
setting a prime (3) giving yourself good time to create a hard anchor (4)
giving youserlf a good block to help move down pieces from the 13 point. You
are at a clear advantage in the game.
It is my *tactical* decision to double.
Please advise me if this is the ramblings of a misguided idiot. I have read
in great depths several books on Backgammon (Bill Robertie) etc etc and base
my decisions on playing some very experienced players.
food for thought.
Gregg Cattanach
double? Without other improvements they are not. And ignoring your
opponent's setup is folly.
A 'clear advantage' and a doubling advantage are two different things. Like
to hook up at GamesGrid for a long money match? Let me know....
--
Gregg Cattanach
Zox at GamesGrid, VOG
gcattana...@prodigy.net
http://gateway.to/backgammon
Eddy Monkey <str...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7pjdb3$nq0$1...@mailgate.liffe.com...
steve_...@my-deja.com
"Gregg Cattanach" <gcattana...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> A 'clear advantage' and a doubling advantage are two different things.
Like
> to hook up at GamesGrid for a long money match? Let me know....
>
> --
> Gregg Cattanach
> Zox at GamesGrid, VOG
> gcattana...@prodigy.net
> http://gateway.to/backgammon
>
Hi Gregg,
If you don't mind me using this as an opportunity to ask a question I
have been curious about, what stakes do you money match folks typically
play for? Are we talking friendly little wager(<=$20), or big money?
Do you agree on how many matches will be played beforehand, as the
loser would most likely like a chance to win his/her money back?
I assume you play the match unrated, I also assume that payment of debt
is on an honor system, that is unless GamesGrid has a feature that
allows you put money into an account meant for payment of money matches?
If the answer to the stakes question is <=$20, I would be interested in
some friendly wagering on the Grid! Let me know.
Steve
Roc on GG
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Gregg Cattanach
opponents agree to. Somewhere from $3 to $10 a point would be the most
common, I would guess. There are some players that play set length matches
for money, such as a 9 point match for $100. The money (unlimited) matches
are always unrated, by definition. One way to settle is to agree if someone
gets ahead by a certain number of points, to settle the debt at that point.
Many other agreements are possible, of course. Total # of games, wherever
the match stands at the end of the month, etc. It also makes a GREAT deal
of sense to 'know' your opponent, so there aren't problems about resolving
the debt. Often a check is just sent via snail mail. The money accounts
that GamesGrid sets up are for the money tournaments and jackpots that the
Grid runs. I'm not really sure if you can channel individual money
competition through those accounts or not.
Personally, I avoid playing for $$ on the net, but enjoy Chouette play for
$3 or $5/point with my local club. There is a small group that likes
Chouettes at $20/point, but I definitely don't understand that! lol But, of
course, not everyone is lucky enough to have a club to play over-the-board.
GL in your next match :-)
--
Gregg Cattanach
Zox at GamesGrid, VOG
gcattana...@prodigy.net
http://gateway.to/backgammon
<steve_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
steve_...@my-deja.com
"Gregg Cattanach" <gcattana...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> course, not everyone is lucky enough to have a club to play
over-the-board.
> GL in your next match :-)
>
> --
> Gregg Cattanach
> Zox at GamesGrid, VOG
> gcattana...@prodigy.net
> http://gateway.to/backgammon
>
Gregg,
Thank you for the info.
Good luck in your next match as well.
Steve
Bob Ebbeler
up playing a proposition with another player wherein I started with 1-1 and
he had the doubling cube on his side at 2. This was, and probably still is,
a time honored proposition and I will, hopefully, save you the expense of
learning the lesson I learned.
The guy who has the cube CRUSHES the guy who starts with 1-1.
NIHILIST
<steve_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7pkogj$jng$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Paul Tanenbaum
"Bob Ebbeler" <rebb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> One of my earliest, expensive lessons was over the issue you raised. I
> wound up playing a proposition with another player wherein I started
> with 1-1 and he had the doubling cube on his side at 2. This was, and
> probably still is, a time honored proposition and I will, hopefully,
> save you the expense of learning the lesson I learned.
<sigh> Bob, a backgammon hustler you aren't. The idea is to recoup
the cost of your lesson at somebody else's expense.
> The guy who has the cube CRUSHES the guy who starts with 1-1.
> NIHILIST
Interesting. What was the equity for the cube-holder (assume at the
2-level)?
Presumably you played it {6/5(2), 8/7(2)}. However, I don't like
giving the indirect shot at the blot, so I would try {6/5(3), 24/23}.
Has this alternative been rolled out? Probably not enough to make a
difference in the prop, though.
---
Paul T.
david
<str...@hotmail.com> writes
>OK you all think I am crazy... BUT if you throw a double one and take the 5
>and the 7 point you are (1) Blocking your opponent (2) 2 points away from
>setting a prime (3) giving yourself good time to create a hard anchor (4)
>giving youserlf a good block to help move down pieces from the 13 point. You
>are at a clear advantage in the game.
>
>It is my *tactical* decision to double.
>
>Please advise me if this is the ramblings of a misguided idiot. I have read
>in great depths several books on Backgammon (Bill Robertie) etc etc and base
>my decisions on playing some very experienced players.
>
>food for thought.
>
>
Not an idiot at all, although some may call you a pigeon. :o)
If your first roll of the game is 11, your opponent will have had 2
rolls before you can double.
After 2 rolls, in most sequences he is likely to be favourite in the
game, unless of course your 11 knocks him off the bar or 5 point.
By the way, if you happen to be on gamesgrid and fancy a $ prop (I roll,
you roll 11, I roll) look up leemo.
--------------------------
da...@infoplus.demon.co.uk
leemo on GamesGrid
--------------------------
david
>The one-on-one money (unlimited) matches are played for whatever stakes the
>opponents agree to. Somewhere from $3 to $10 a point would be the most
>common, I would guess. There are some players that play set length matches
>for money, such as a 9 point match for $100. The money (unlimited) matches
>are always unrated, by definition. One way to settle is to agree if someone
>gets ahead by a certain number of points, to settle the debt at that point.
>Many other agreements are possible, of course. Total # of games, wherever
>the match stands at the end of the month, etc. It also makes a GREAT deal
>of sense to 'know' your opponent, so there aren't problems about resolving
>the debt. Often a check is just sent via snail mail. The money accounts
>that GamesGrid sets up are for the money tournaments and jackpots that the
>Grid runs. I'm not really sure if you can channel individual money
>competition through those accounts or not.
>
only what he loses, and the winner pays the $10 admin charge.
>Personally, I avoid playing for $$ on the net, but enjoy Chouette play for
>$3 or $5/point with my local club. There is a small group that likes
>Chouettes at $20/point, but I definitely don't understand that! lol But, of
>course, not everyone is lucky enough to have a club to play over-the-board.
>GL in your next match :-)
PS: Anyone know if it's possible to set up a chouette on gamesgrid?
David
Hank Youngerman
question of market losers. Although most reading this thread will be
familar with the idea, apparently some are not.
Suppose the game begins as follows:
Opponent gets a decent roll
You roll 1-1
Opponent gets a poor but not horrid roll
Let's say: 5-3, 1-1, 6-2
At this point, Snowie rates you 55.4% to win, and 16.3% to win a
gammon vs 10.7% for the opponent. Net money equity is .167. Yes, you
are a favorite. If your choice were to double now or never double,
you would double.
However, this is NOT your choice. Your choice is to double now, or
double next roll, or not double either time. Again using Snowie's
marvelous capabilities, we can take all 1296 sequences of the next two
rolls. Your best sequences are you rolling a 4-4, following by the
opponent rolling 6-6, 6-5, or 5-5 (dancing). At this point, Snowie
makes your equity in the game +.707 - a clear drop.
Of the 1296 sequences, in fact, 38 are sequences after which your
opponent would correctly drop a double. On average, when you lose
your market, you will lose it by something on the order of .04. Thus
- about 3% of the time, you will say "Gosh, I wish I had doubled last
roll" and the amount you will lose in equity is about .04 of a point.
Looking at it another way - if you were playing for $10 a point, and
someone said "I'll sell you insurance - if you pay me a certain sum, I
will agree to take over your opponent's game next roll if he drops (in
return for him paying me the one point that he would lose anyway)" -
the fair price for that insurance would be about two cents!
The key is that the sequence:
Roll - roll - roll - double/take - roll - roll
is equivalent to:
Roll - roll - roll - roll - roll - double/take
And only 3% of the time will you be unable to create the second
sequence,and when it does happen, it will not be very costly. On the
other hand, 314 of the 1296 sequences actually leave you the underdog,
and quite sorry that you doubled.
On balance, the double seems - er, a tad premature.
Daniel Murphy
<ptane...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <NCov3.441$dO3....@news4.mia>,
> "Bob Ebbeler" <rebb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> One of my earliest, expensive lessons was over the issue you raised. I
>> wound up playing a proposition with another player wherein I started
>> with 1-1 and he had the doubling cube on his side at 2.
>
>> The guy who has the cube CRUSHES the guy who starts with 1-1.
>
> Interesting. What was the equity for the cube-holder (assume at the
>2-level)?
This proposition illustration the value of cube possession. Early
double aces is usually a fine number, and played 8/7(2) 6/5(2) on the
very first roll of the game is enough to make you a 55-60% favorite
straight off, but you forfeit your entire advantage if you have to
give your opponent the cube before you move!
I read "CRUSHES" to mean "solid favorite," and like Bob's hustler, I'd
also happily let my opponent start with 11 in exchange for cube
possession.
A too-quick JF level 5 rollout (1296 rollouts, .550 settlement,
0.029-0.038 standard deviation) makes the player with 11 a 56%
favorite cubeless, but a 46% underdog if his opponent has the cube. In
this rollout, JF still thinks the player with 11 has an 0.072 equity
edge, but I think the rollout gives way too little credit to
opponent's redoubling and gammon chances.
> Presumably you played it {6/5(2), 8/7(2)}. However, I don't like
>giving the indirect shot at the blot, so I would try {6/5(3), 24/23}.
>Has this alternative been rolled out? Probably not enough to make a
>difference in the prop, though.
I undaringly predict that 6/5(2) 8/7(2) "crushes" all alternatives in
rollouts, and that 6/5(2) 24/22 does better than 6/5(3) 24/23.
(In a real game, don't be afraid to split to the 22 point with 11 if
6/5(2) 8/7(2) would leave a _direct_ shot at the blot on the 8 point.
And, in a real game, be very wary of moving your last spare checker
from the 6 point to the 5 point. More often than not, that one little
move will come back to haunt you before the game is through.)
________________________________________________
Daniel Murphy www.cityraccoon.com/
Humlebæk Backgammon Klub www.hbgk.dk/
Raccoon on FIBS www.fibs.com/
Raccoon on GamesGrid too
Martins
Bob Ebbeler wrote:
>
> One of my earliest, expensive lessons was over the issue you raised. I wound
> up playing a proposition with another player wherein I started with 1-1 and
> he had the doubling cube on his side at 2. This was, and probably still is,
> a time honored proposition and I will, hopefully, save you the expense of
> learning the lesson I learned.
>
> The guy who has the cube CRUSHES the guy who starts with 1-1.
>
> NIHILIST
>
yeah, that's proposition from Magriels book, but I specially made a
rollout.
Magriel say that cube compensates 1-1 opening roll it he is right,
equity -0.017 is very small difference
maybe your opponent was stronger that you ;)
equity for cube guy on roll after 8/7(2) 6/5(2):
double 1's guy own cube: -1.019
center cube : -0.334
cube guy own cube : -0.017 !!!
/\
||
______________________________________
Cubefull rollout on snowie 2.1
689 games ( equiv. 14723 games )
played 2 ply [supertiny], cube 3 ply
settlement 0.550 at 2pts
random seed, without race database
______________________________________
> <steve_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:7pkogj$jng$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <7pkims$884k$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> > "Gregg Cattanach" <gcattana...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > course, not everyone is lucky enough to have a club to play
> > over-the-board.
> > > GL in your next match :-)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregg Cattanach
> > > Zox at GamesGrid, VOG
> > > gcattana...@prodigy.net
> > > http://gateway.to/backgammon
> > >
> >
> > Gregg,
> >
> > Thank you for the info.
> >
> > Good luck in your next match as well.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
--
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