The Final Eldarin Genealogy

Michael Martinez

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Nov 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/25/96

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Well, despite the subject line I've chosen, at this point I'm only advancing a
tentative interpretation of what's provided in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH for
discussion.

A number of names and ideas have been introduced in this volume which we have
hitherto not seen before. Some will appear to be quite radical.

For instance, it appears that Miriel Serinde was born in Valinor. There is a
discussion of the phonetic shift of the initial consonant in "Serinde" where
Tolkien indicates the Noldor consciously engaged in this shift while in Aman. He
writes:

"The change...must therefore have been a conscious and deliberate
change agreed to and accepted by a majority of the Noldor, however
initiated, after the separation of their dwellings from the Vanyar.
It must have occurred after the birth of Miriel, but (probably)
before the birth of Feanor. The special connexion of these two
persons with the change and its later history needs some
consideration."

Well, I can't go into all that consideration, but it's evident that Tolkien
envisioned Miriel as being native to Aman.

Another interesting item that develops concerns Indis' relationship to Ingwe. In
MORGOTH'S RING she is is said to be the sister of Ingwe, yet in THE PEOPLES OF
MIDDLE-EARTH we are told that she is the niece of Ingwe (the daughter of his
sister). Finwe apparently had an eye for the young ladies, or perhaps waited so
long to find a spouse he had no choice but to look among the younger generation.

There are two references to the "kin of Miriel". The second reference says "the
names of her kin are not recorded", which I think is a shame. It would be
interesting to see what Tolkien would have devised for her family.

It also appears that Nerdanel, the wife of Feanor, came of a clan of Noldor who
possessed auburn hair (called "reddish-brown" by Tolkien). This is the only place
I know of where such hair color is said to occur among the Eldar. It is also told
that she had a ruddy complexion. I'm not sure of what to make of this. Mahtan,
Nerdanal's father, was also called *rusco*, "fox". His hair must therefore have
been a firey red.

Of the sons of Feanor and Nerdanel, Maedros, Amrod, and Amras all had red hair.
Amrod is here said to have died in one of the ships burned at Losgar. The
consequences of incorporating this tradition with the published SILMARILLION seem
to have daunted Christopher Tolkien, but I don't see why it should have. He could
merely have changed all references to the twins to a reference to Amras. JRRT
surely would have done at least this much in an effort to incorporate the tradition.

Two names are provided for the second daughter of Finwe: Irime and Irien.
Christopher Tolkien suggests that Irien may have been intended to replace the older
form Irime. She was in Middle-earth known as Lalwen but there is really nothing
more recorded of her history, unless something is buried in the reams of linguistic
material that has yet to be published.

A third daughter, Faniel, is not mentioned. In a note, Christopher Tolkien writes:

"[In THE WAR OF THE JEWELS I referred to a set of Elvish
genealogies wita clear resemblance to those of the Edain
given in that book: see XI.229, where I noted that the
former are followed by notes expressly relating to them and
dated December 1959. These genealogies are almost exclusively
concerned with the descendants of Finwe, and are set out
in four separate tables, all apparently belonging to much
the same time, and showing the same sort of development
in stages as is seen in those of the houses of the Edain.
At least eight years and probably more divide them from
the present 'excursus', whose date is fixed as not earlier
than February 1968; but my father clearly had them in
front of him when he wrote this, and alterations made to
the latest of the four agree with statments made in it.
In all these tables there are still three daughters of
Finwe and Indis: *Findis*, *Faniel*, and *Irime* (see
X.207, 238, and also X.262, where *Finvain* appears
for *Irime*), and no correction was made. In the excursus
*Faniel* had disappeared, and the younger daughter
appears as both *Irime* and *Irien* (see not 28).]"

It is also said that:

"...after the death of Fingofin...the Noldor then became divided
into separate kingships under Fingon, son of Fingolfin, Turgon
his younger brother, Maedros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of
Arfin [Finarfin]; and the following of Finrod had become the
greatest."

[Note: I've altered the meaning of this passage by leaving out the original
context. The point conveyed above is implied by the discussion.]

It's interesting that Finrod's following is said to have been the largest. We know
from THE SILMARILLION that Turgon took a third of Fingolfin's Noldor into his own
kingdom of Nevrast. And we know that after the Ruin of Beleriand (in the wake of
which Fingolfin fought Morgoth in single combat) that some of the Feanorian Noldor
settled in Nargothrond.

But this is the first time we find a statement which indicates there was a single
kingship of the Noldor prior to Fingolfin's death. This is odd, since Finrod and
Turgon at least were said to be kings already. Maedros was hitherto only given an
implied kingship in a couple of passages in THE SILMARILLION referring to how the
three kings of the Noldor dealt with the Edain.

Fingolfin's wife, Anaire, was of the Noldor and she stayed in Aman when the Noldor
left, apparently because of her friendship with Earwen, the wife of Finarfin.

Orodreth was apparently intended (in the final form) to be Finrod's nephew, rather
than his brother. Another surprising alteration is the denial to Fingon of wife or
children, and the assignment of Gil-galad (Rodnor Gil-galad) to Orodreth as a son.
The consequences of these alterations, although significant, would have resulted in
minimal changes to the published SILMARILLION: (1) the reference to Ereinion being
sent to the Havens after Fingolfin's death would have been removed, and (2)
Orodreth could not have held Minas Tirith for Finrod after Nargothrond was
established. Possibly, Angrod would have been removed from Dorthonion and given
command of Minas Tirith (where he would, perhaps, have died) and Aegnor alone would
have held Dorthonion.

Fingon actually had been given an unnamed wife and two children in the
aforementioned four tables, but Christopher writes: "...in the final table they
were struck out, with the note that Fingon 'had no child or wife'."

The ubiquitous Gildor Inglorion, sadly, is nowhere mentioned in the section dealing
with Finwe's descendants. I'm not sure of whether Tolkien decided the House of
Finrod was to be something else, or if perhaps Gildor came over to Middle-earth in
the Second Age with Glorfindel. This last inference, although improbable, derives
from the fact that Tolkien writes that Finrod did not have any children in
Middle-earth:

"Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile."

This passage also states:

"...Angrod's son was Artaresto [Artaher --> Arothir --> Orodreth],
who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when his father was slain,
and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he
succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was *Rodreth*
(altered to *Orodreth* because of his love of the mountains ..
.... His children were Finduilas and Artanaro = Rodnor later
called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North.
She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and
eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor
there."

This change in the history of Gil-galad is substantial and conflicts with the
tradition of the rise of Arvernian, the ruler of which was Earendil (and perhaps
Tuor before him). How does Gil-galad become associated with Cirdan? Who were all
these Noldor living at the Mouth of Sirion? What was to become of the exiles of
Doriath and Gondolin who were to found Arvernien? Tolkien doesn't say. We could
contrive an explanation by suggesting that Cirdan took in the young Gil-galad, who
removed to Balar, and that the exiles of Doriath and Gondolin therefore found only
a small population of Noldor at the Mouth of Sirion (if any of Gil-galad's people
would have remained there at all).

It is conceivable that Gildor is actually mentioned on one of those four
unpublished genealogies (if ever I should meet Christopher Tolkien, I will have
MANY questions for him <g>). *Inglorion* could be related to *Ingalaure*, which
appears to be an earlier name for Finarfin, later called *Ingoldo* before Finrod
took on that name.

On the other hand, the discussion uses the name *Ereinion* for Gil-galad, and it
states that "he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male
descendant of Finwe except Elrond the Half-elven." Gil-galad's parentage is not
given in this part of the discussion, but is provided in a later section, where the
name *Ereinion* does not appear (but instead Artanaro --> Rodnor is used).
Christophar says in a note that he took the name *Ereinion* for Fingon's son in THE
SILMARILLION from this essay.

I do have a problem with the statement that Elrond was a male descendant of Finwe.
He was male, he was a descendant, but he was not descended of a male line. I'm not
sure of what the significance Tolkien attached to Elrond in this respect, unless it
means that "after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was
also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants" (Appendix A in LOTR).
Of course, Galadriel's daughter Celebrian was a descendant of Finwe. But these
statements would seem to exclude Gildor Inglorion from the House of Finwe
completely.

The name *Irisse* appears to be the original name of Aredhel. Her history is a bit
confusing and I won't attempt to recap it here.

Fingolfin's third son, Argon, was added to the genealogy relatively late. His
"story" was changed twice before Tolkien decided that he died in the Battle of the
Lammoth, which occurred when Fingolfin's host reached Middle-earth. This is an
alteration of the history of the Noldor in that the published SILMARILLION says
that the Orcs hid themselves when Fingolfin's host passed through. There is no
indication that this battle would have become one of the major battles of the Wars
of Beleriand.

There is an interesting note concerning Finrod's name, *Felagund*. It appears that
when Nargothrond was established, the Dwarves of Ered Luin drove out the
Petty-dwarves who were still living there. This is not stated in the published
SILMARILLION (which says only that the Dwarves helped in the making of Nargothrond).

It appears the greatest loremasters of the Noldor in Middle-earth (during the Wars
of Beleriand) were: Feanor, the captains of Gondolin, Findro, and Orodreth
(although these are but examples of the quality of the loremasters).

Here is the genealogy, given in four tables (no known relation to the four
Christopher keeps referring to):

The House of Feanor:

The House of Fingolfin:

The House of Finarfin:

+ - - - - - +
: Ingwe
(sister) + - - - - - +
| | |
Finwe = Indis Olwe Elwe = Melian
| | |
Finarfin = Earwen Luthien
|
+----------------+----------------+---------+
| | | |
Finrod = Amarie Angrod = Edhellos Aegnor Galadriel = Celeborn
: | |
(descendants Orodreth Elrond = Celebrian
in Aman?) | |
+-------+------+ +------+---------+
| | | | |
Gil-galad Finduilas Elladan Elrohir Arwen

So, now I've drawn it up as best I can. The "final Eldarin genealogy" is now
available for discussion <g>.

--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------

Jim Gregors

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Nov 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/25/96

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Michael Martinez wrote:
>
> The ubiquitous Gildor Inglorion, sadly, is nowhere mentioned in the section dealing
> with Finwe's descendants. I'm not sure of whether Tolkien decided the House of
> Finrod was to be something else, or if perhaps Gildor came over to Middle-earth in
> the Second Age with Glorfindel. This last inference, although improbable, derives
> from the fact that Tolkien writes that Finrod did not have any children in
> Middle-earth:
>
> "Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile."

> [snip]

> It is conceivable that Gildor is actually mentioned on one of those four
> unpublished genealogies (if ever I should meet Christopher Tolkien, I will have
> MANY questions for him <g>). *Inglorion* could be related to *Ingalaure*, which
> appears to be an earlier name for Finarfin, later called *Ingoldo* before Finrod
> took on that name.

I seem to remember that 'Finrod' was an earlier name of Finarfin, and
'Felagund' was the name of his son at that stage. Could it be that "of
the House of Finrod" in FotR should have read "of the House of Finarfin"
and merely escaped editorial scrutiny? This has always been my
assumption (since I agree that Finrod had no children).

Jim G.

Jim Gregors

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Nov 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/25/96

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Michael Martinez wrote:
>
> On 11/25/96 4:36PM, in message <329A2D...@concentric.net>, Jim Gregors

> <sl...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > I seem to remember that 'Finrod' was an earlier name of Finarfin, and
> > 'Felagund' was the name of his son at that stage. Could it be that "of
> > the House of Finrod" in FotR should have read "of the House of Finarfin"
> > and merely escaped editorial scrutiny? This has always been my
> > assumption (since I agree that Finrod had no children).
>

> This has always been my own inclination, but every time Christoher publishes a book
> with more information on the Eldarin noble houses, he makes no mention of Gildor.
>
> I think the time has come to admit that Tolkien probably dropped Gildor from the
> family, perhaps intentionally.

Possibly. Does anyone have Christopher Tolkien's e-mail address? I
could probably fill a volume just with questions of this sort. Surely,
he must read this news group. Maybe he replies under a psuedonym?

Jim G.

soli...@gamewood.net

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Nov 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/25/96

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Michael Martinez wrote:
>It is conceivable that Gildor is actually mentioned on one of those four
>unpublished genealogies (if ever I should meet Christopher Tolkien, I will
have
>MANY questions for him <g>). *Inglorion* could be related to *Ingalaure*,
which
>appears to be an earlier name for Finarfin, later called *Ingoldo* before
Finrod
>took on that name.

Thank you, Michael, on behalf of all of us who are still waiting for
Houghton-Mifflin to ship our American edition of PoME (grrr!).

I'll try to find out if the 4 JRRT genealogies mention Gildor. I suspect
they won't. A) The meeting in the Woody End was written in 1938, and
Gildor was not a character of such magnitude as to require backwriting like
Galadriel or Glorfindel; B) "House of Finrod" (1st ed., "House of Finarfin"
later) needn't mean Finrod's > Finarfin's descendants, rather his people or
following: "House of Hador" and "Three Houses of the Edain" vary in
meaning between blood kin and the whole people; C) "Inglorion" sure looks
like it means "son of Inglor (Felagund)" but there may be an alternative
explanation; certainly T. never revised the position taken in the Grey
Annals that Finrod never married or had children - and your late cite,
passing the succession of Nargothrond to Finrod's *nephew* Orodreth, would
seem to confirm it.

Michael Martinez

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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On 11/25/96 4:36PM, in message <329A2D...@concentric.net>, Jim Gregors
<sl...@concentric.net> wrote:

> I seem to remember that 'Finrod' was an earlier name of Finarfin, and
> 'Felagund' was the name of his son at that stage. Could it be that "of
> the House of Finrod" in FotR should have read "of the House of Finarfin"
> and merely escaped editorial scrutiny? This has always been my
> assumption (since I agree that Finrod had no children).

This has always been my own inclination, but every time Christoher publishes a book
with more information on the Eldarin noble houses, he makes no mention of Gildor.

I think the time has come to admit that Tolkien probably dropped Gildor from the
family, perhaps intentionally.

--

Stephen Geard

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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Re: Gildor Iglorion. The word Iglorion means "son of Inglor". In that time
of his writing (i.e. early in the Lord of the Rings) Tolkien was calling
the King of Nargothrond, Inglor Felagund (and his father was named Finrod).
The name Inglor was not wholly abandoned, as the Quenya form of it
(Ingalaure) survived as the mother-name of Finarfin.

However "Inglorion" does not imply that Gildor was a son of (or even a
descendant of) Felagund. The suffix -ion (translated "son of", or "scion
of", the feminine equivalent was -ien) was not generally meant to be
understood literally, but figuratively. Grammatically it is called a
genetive termination.

Examples: Anarion (son of Elendil) was not literally the son of the Sun.
Tar-Telperien of Numenor was not literally the daughter of silver. When
Aldarion named Erendis Uinenien (which Tolkien translates as "daughter of
Uinen"), he knew both her parents quite well - and neither of them were
Uinen!

Some uses are literal (or nearly so): Ereinion Gil-galad was the son of
kings, Eldarion (son of Elessar and Arwen) was a son of the Eldar, etc.

Inglorion is best understood to mean "son of Inglor" in a figurative sense.
"Of the House of Finrod" would probably be the best translation. Any knight
of Nargothrond could have claimed to be of the House of Finrod.

Stephen Geard
Tasmania

Incanus

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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Jim Gregors <sl...@concentric.net> wrote:

> Possibly. Does anyone have Christopher Tolkien's e-mail address? I
> could probably fill a volume just with questions of this sort. Surely,
> he must read this news group. Maybe he replies under a psuedonym?

Being seventysomething, and with so many editorial and research work to
do, I don't think he has much time to bother with the Net.

--
Incanus

inc...@bigfoot.com
http://jagor.srce.hr/~blopac/

Michael Martinez

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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In article <01bbdb66$a8659f80$9ff3868b@default>, "Stephen Geard" <sge...@msn.com> wrote:
>Inglorion is best understood to mean "son of Inglor" in a figurative sense.
>"Of the House of Finrod" would probably be the best translation. Any knight
>of Nargothrond could have claimed to be of the House of Finrod.

I cannot agree with this last statement. There is no precedent for it in any
of Tolkien's writings of which I am aware. To be a member of the House, one
must be descended of the House (and not necesarily of the male line, although
I'm not positive on this last aspect).

Do you know of a passage (either in a story or, say, an etymological entry)
that supports your statement/conclusion?

soli...@gamewood.net

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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>In article <01bbdb66$a8659f80$9ff3868b@default>, "Stephen Geard" <
>sge...@msn.com> wrote:
>>Inglorion is best understood to mean "son of Inglor" in a figurative
sense.
>>"Of the House of Finrod" would probably be the best translation. Any
knight
>>of Nargothrond could have claimed to be of the House of Finrod.
>
>I cannot agree with this last statement. There is no precedent for it in
any
>of Tolkien's writings of which I am aware. To be a member of the House,
one
>must be descended of the House (and not necesarily of the male line,
although
>I'm not positive on this last aspect).
>
>Do you know of a passage (either in a story or, say, an etymological
entry)
>that supports your statement/conclusion?

"To be a member of a House, one *must* be descended........." The LAW,
indeed!

In fact, Tolkien habitually uses "House of Hador" and especially "Three
Houses of the Edain" *either* for the ruling family, or for the people as
the whole. The majority of the people of Numenor descended from the House
of Hador, etc.

BTW, are you implying that Glorfindel was descended from a Golden Flower?

David Salo

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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In article <01bbdb66$a8659f80$9ff3868b@default>, "Stephen Geard"
<sge...@msn.com> wrote:

> However "Inglorion" does not imply that Gildor was a son of (or even a
> descendant of) Felagund. The suffix -ion (translated "son of", or "scion
> of", the feminine equivalent was -ien) was not generally meant to be
> understood literally, but figuratively. Grammatically it is called a
> genetive termination.

It is quite true that -ion could be used to refer to ancestors
(grandfathers and great-grandfathers, not just fathers); but it does refer
to direct links of descent.
-(i)en is one of several feminine endings, and does not seem to refer to
ancestry. -iel is apparently used with the sense 'daughter' (e.g.
Tinúviel, daughter of twilight).
It is possible to confuse the endings -ion, -iel with the masculine and
feminine endings -on, -el (also -en, -eth) when following an -i- that is
part of a previous stem.

> Examples: Anarion (son of Elendil) was not literally the son of the Sun.
> Tar-Telperien of Numenor was not literally the daughter of silver.

Telperien is an example. The first element is telpe "silver"; the second
is itself compounded of ri- (*rig-) "crown" and the feminine ending
-en(de), and means "queen" or "princess." The name is close in meaning to
the Sindarin _Celebrían_ "Silver queen" (though in Q. the name would be
*Telperianna). Another element of similar form is the -riel "garlanded (or
crowned) maiden" in _Galadriel_. The masculine equivalent would be -rion
(*rigondo); it is probably that element which is seen in Elda-rion, if the
name is formed according to proper Quenya compounding procedures.

> When
> Aldarion named Erendis Uinenien (which Tolkien translates as "daughter of
> Uinen"), he knew both her parents quite well - and neither of them were
> Uinen!

That's _Uinéniel_. But the point is fair: the allusive or metaphorical
status of 'son' or 'daughter' could be used in a nickname. Likewise
_Lómion_, 'son of twilight'. Yet how could a reference to a living being
(elf or man) be metaphorical? If _Inglor_ was a real person, then Gildor
Inglorion was either his son, or possibly his more remote descendant.

> Inglorion is best understood to mean "son of Inglor" in a figurative sense.
> "Of the House of Finrod" would probably be the best translation. Any knight
> of Nargothrond could have claimed to be of the House of Finrod.

I don't think that is true. The word translated "house" is _nos_ (Q.
nosse) which means "clan" or "(extended) family", from a root (O)NO 'beget'
also seen in _onna_ 'child', _ontar_, _nostar_ 'parent'. As Finrod became
the head of the _Nos Finarfin_ - that is, Finarfin and all his dependent
descendants - it might then be fairly called the _Nos Finrod_, and include
all of his brothers and sisters, as well as any direct descendants he might
have.
In short "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod" means "Gildor, son of
a guy called Inglor, who is somehow related to Finrod (and acknowledges him
as the head of his clan)."
Now if Gildor was intended to be considered the son (or more distant
descendant) of Inglor = Felagund, it would be rather strange, since he is a
relatively unimportant character. But if Tolkien was already considering
dropping the name Inglor for Felagund and replacing it with something else
when he named Gildor, it might make more sense to use it for a minor
character's patronymic.
"House of Finrod" almost certainly should have been replaced by "House
of Finarfin," but for the reasons given above the term "House of Finrod" is
not an entirely unlikely synonym.

David Salo

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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In article <AEC0E04...@206.229.248.19>, soli...@gamewood.net wrote:

> In fact, Tolkien habitually uses "House of Hador" and especially "Three
> Houses of the Edain" *either* for the ruling family, or for the people as
> the whole. The majority of the people of Numenor descended from the House
> of Hador, etc.

It is not at all impossible that all of the folk of the house of Hador
were blood kin. They included only c. 6000 grown men when they entered
Beleriand.

DS

Michael Martinez

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

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On 11/26/96 3:58PM, in message <AEC0E04...@206.229.248.19>,
soli...@gamewood.net wrote:

> >In article <01bbdb66$a8659f80$9ff3868b@default>, "Stephen Geard" <
> >sge...@msn.com> wrote:
> >>Inglorion is best understood to mean "son of Inglor" in a figurative
> >>sense. "Of the House of Finrod" would probably be the best translation.
> >>Any knight of Nargothrond could have claimed to be of the House of Finrod.
> >

> >I cannot agree with this last statement. There is no precedent for it in
> >any of Tolkien's writings of which I am aware. To be a member of the House,
> >one must be descended of the House (and not necesarily of the male line,
> >although I'm not positive on this last aspect).
> >
> >Do you know of a passage (either in a story or, say, an etymological
> >entry) that supports your statement/conclusion?
>
> "To be a member of a House, one *must* be descended........." The LAW,
> indeed!
>

> In fact, Tolkien habitually uses "House of Hador" and especially "Three
> Houses of the Edain" *either* for the ruling family, or for the people as
> the whole. The majority of the people of Numenor descended from the House
> of Hador, etc.

In fact, I said, "To be a member of THE HOUSE, one must be descended of THE
HOUSE...." The context provided makes it clear I was speaking of the house of
Finrod, although by extension it applies equally to ALL "houses".

Although Tolkien mostly uses "House of Hador" to refer to the people, not the
family of Hador, I wonder how many of the Marachians you would say were not
descended of the tribe?.

Marach's people were numerous but nonetheless related to one another. Beor's
people were also related to each other. Tolkien refers to the Folk of Haleth, the
People of Haleth, and the Men of Brethil, but the only occurrence of "house of
Haleth" that I know of refers distinctly to the family, not the people.

Even so, to the best of my admittedly fallible knowledge, at no time after the
First Age do we even find a "house" referring to both a family and a people. For
example, we have the House of Elendil and the Dunedain; the House of Eorl and the
Eorlingas; the House of Dol Amroth and the Men of Dol Amroth; the House of the
Stewards; the House of the Kings; the House of Anarion; and so forth.

Descent is the defining criterion. There are numerous "houses" named in the books.
To show I'm wrong, you only need cite one passage where someone who is said to be
"of the House of So-and-So" is not a relative.

I note that "The House of Elrond" is used at least once, but seems to refer mostly
to his abode, the household he maintained in Imladris (this is Robert Foster's
interpretation of Gandalf's remark to Frodo, "You are in the House of Elrond").

> BTW, are you implying that Glorfindel was descended from a Golden Flower?

How did we leap from "House of Finrod" to "House of the Golden Flower"? But if
you're going to drag up a fairly old element that survived into Christopher's
rewriting of THE SILMARILLION, why not bring up the other eleven houses as well?

At any rate, to the best of my knowledge, there was never an Elf named "Golden
Flower", so the "House of the Golden Flower" did not claim descent from or kinship
with Glorfindel, except perhaps in a few cases.

The Houses of Gondolin and their lords were:

King's House Turgon
White Wing Tuor
Mole Meglin
Swallow Duilin
Heavenly Arch Egalmoth
Pillar Penlod
Tower of Snow (Penlod)
Tree Galdor
Golden Flower Glorfindel
Fountain Ecthelion
Harp Salgant
Hammer of Wrath Rog

Not one of these houses uses a personal name. So, with these "houses" descent is
obviously not a rule. One could argue that it extends to Nargothrond, and yet the
House of Finrod takes its name from an individual. Hence, the "rule" is that if
the "house" is named for an individual, descent or kinship is required for one to
be considered of that house; if the house is named for something else, descent or
kinship are NOT required.

I would be most interested to see a citation of something which shows this not to
be the case.

--

an...@mrent.demon.co.uk

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

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As someone who doesnt even know his great grandparents names I find this
the dullest of all the threads on here

Jim Gregors

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

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Stephen Geard wrote:
>
> Some uses are literal (or nearly so): Ereinion Gil-galad was the son of
> kings, Eldarion (son of Elessar and Arwen) was a son of the Eldar, etc.

So how do we decide which uses are literal, and which are not?

Jim G.

Stephen Geard

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

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In response to me, Michael Martinez wrote:

> >Inglorion is best understood to mean "son of Inglor" in a figurative
sense.
> >"Of the House of Finrod" would probably be the best translation. Any
knight
> >of Nargothrond could have claimed to be of the House of Finrod.
>
> I cannot agree with this last statement. There is no precedent for it in
any
> of Tolkien's writings of which I am aware. To be a member of the House,
one
> must be descended of the House (and not necesarily of the male line,
although
> I'm not positive on this last aspect).
>
> Do you know of a passage (either in a story or, say, an etymological
entry)
> that supports your statement/conclusion?

I will certainly have a look. But remember we are actually discussing the
meaning of the genetive termination -ion. "Of the House of" is my
translation of it, which may or may not be accurate. Where are David Salo
or Carl Hostetter, when we need them? Even if "of the House of" does imply
lineal descent, -ion certainly does not.

Stephen Geard
Tasmania

Walter Minne

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

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Good day all,

I'd like to leap in here with a point I would like to add to
this thread.

As I understand it, when the reference to the House of Finrod was
originally written, it was literally correct, but Tolkien changed
Finrod to Finarphin ( and to Finarfin ), after this was written, but
the reference escaped correction during the revision.
However, I would like to propose the following as part of the
reason it escaped correction, and an interpretation whereby it remains
correct.
By the end of the Third Age, who would have been the better known
elf in Middle-earth, Finrod or Finarphin? Finarphin, after returning to
Valinor rather than go into exile, was isolated from Middle-earth by the
Hiding of Valinor, and only returned during the War of Wrath, which was
poorly reported to those who remained in Middle-earth.
Finrod on the other hand, took over his fathers place as head of
his house of the Noldor, not just as his father's son but in his own
right. After Thingol, he was the greatest of the Kings in Beleriand, with
the greatest realm. Finally, his heroic death helping Beren in the Quest
of the Silmaril would have ensured that everyone who was told the story
knew who he was.
I expect that the House of Finrod would have rapidly replaced in
usage the House of Finarphin, even in the First Age, as Finrod was the
elf on the ground, and Finarphin was out of contact in Aman.

I hope this helps the discussion,

Walter Minne

Michael Martinez

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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On 11/26/96 9:40PM, in message <57ggnq$m...@curlew.mtx.net.au>, Walter Minne
<ka...@dove.mtx.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

> I expect that the House of Finrod would have rapidly replaced in
> usage the House of Finarphin, even in the First Age, as Finrod was the
> elf on the ground, and Finarphin was out of contact in Aman.

A very lucid and well-reasoned explanation. Certainly one which had never occurred
to me before.

Thanks for sharing your ideas with us.

Walter Minne

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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Good day all,

Jumping feet first into this discussion again, how about I try to
redefine the question at issue.

Are the only members of the Noldor to have golden ( fair ) hair, lineal
descendants of Finarfin?

It seems to me that this is what this discussion is basically about, and how
those Noldo with golden hair who are not explicitly related to Finarfin are
actually.

Specifically, who in relative terms is Glorfindel?

If the First and Third Age Glorfindels are the same, what was a child or
grandchild of Finarphin doing in Gondolin?

Comments anyone?

This promises to be an interesting thread, and I would like to contribute
more.

Walter Minne

Michael Martinez

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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On 11/27/96 12:46AM, in message <01bbdc2e$8e04b4a0$bdf3868b@default>, "Stephen
Geard" <sge...@msn.com> wrote:

> I will certainly have a look. But remember we are actually discussing the
> meaning of the genetive termination -ion. "Of the House of" is my
> translation of it, which may or may not be accurate. Where are David Salo
> or Carl Hostetter, when we need them? Even if "of the House of" does imply
> lineal descent, -ion certainly does not.

As my original reply did not make my meaning clear, let me attempt to restate what
I said for the sake of those who won't see that article.

In the specific example under consdiration, we were referring to the House of
Finrod. I said that in order to be of the House of Finrod, someone must be
descended of the House of Finrod.

Immediately I was taken to task for that statement and the House of the Golden
Flower was suggested as a contradiction to my "rule".

My comments were not intended to be a statement of Tolkien's Genric Rule For
Inclusion In Housedom (or whatever). Rather, I was referring to (implying) a
specific observation I had made previously (privately) concerning "house" in
Tolkien.

He uses the term all over the place. However, in every case I know of where the
house is named for an individual, kinship is required for someone to be connected
to that house. Even the "House of Hador" refers only to either the descendants of
Marach or the People of Marach, who ostensibly are related to one another in some
way. They are a tribe, and this convention seems to be an old one that Tolkien
perhaps would have chosen to disregard had it not been so romantically affixed in
his genealogy. He never refers to the House of Eorl with the meaning of the People
of Eorl: Eorlingas, Rohirrim, Sons of Eorl, and even Eotheod are all used to refer
to the specific tribe that came to Gondor's aid in TA 2510.

In a few places Tolkien uses "houses" and "clans" interchangeably, thus reinforcing
my observation. As for the House of the Golden Flower, I've already posted a list
of the Houses of Gondolin, and none were named for individuals. Therefore, there
is no apparently contradiction involved.

And I seldom get involved directly in the linguistic issues. I think I've been
wrong every time I've tried my hand at such discussions, but I'll stick my neck out
again and say that my understanding of "-ion" is that it means something like
"From", "Of", or "Scion of", or something like that.

So, "Eldarion" could mean "Of The Eldar" or "Scion of the Eldar".

"Inglorion" could mean "Of Inglor" or "Scion of Inglor".

"Scion", according to WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY, 3rd COLLEGE EDITION, means "a
descendant or offspring".

Michael Martinez

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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On 11/25/96 10:59AM, in message <AEBF48A...@206.229.248.42>,

soli...@gamewood.net wrote:
> B) "House of Finrod" (1st ed., "House of Finarfin" later) needn't mean
> Finrod's > Finarfin's descendants, rather his people or following:
> "House of Hador" and "Three Houses of the Edain" vary in
> meaning between blood kin and the whole people;

I realize people don't like it when I'm terse and to the point, but I'm still
waiting for an example of an Elvish "house" that is treated the same way as one of
the three Edainic "houses".

Once again, this convention was applied only to First Age Mannish Tribes. "House"
does not thereafter refer to anything but a clan (and all the Mannish tribes were
arguably clannish in origin).

Michael Martinez

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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On 11/27/96 5:48PM, in message <57inhq$8...@curlew.mtx.net.au>, Walter Minne
<ka...@dove.mtx.net.au> wrote:

> Good day all,
>
> Jumping feet first into this discussion again, how about I try to
> redefine the question at issue.
>
> Are the only members of the Noldor to have golden ( fair ) hair, lineal
> descendants of Finarfin?

According to Tolkien, this is so, and yet he provides us with at least two Noldor
who were not descendants of Finarfin and who had golden hair: Glorfindel and Idril
Celebrindal.

Personally, I think he goofed on this issue. In several places we read that the
Noldor and Vanyar intermingled quite a bit. There should have been a lot of
golden-haired Noldor and a lot of dark-haired Vanyar eventually.

> Specifically, who in relative terms is Glorfindel?

We don't know anything about Glorfindel's relatives, although he had some in
Gondolin who were not released from Mandos when he was.

And Idril's mother, Turgon's wife, was Elenwe of the Vanyar.

David Salo

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

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In article <57inhq$8...@curlew.mtx.net.au>, ka...@dove.mtx.net.au (Walter
Minne) wrote:

> Are the only members of the Noldor to have golden ( fair ) hair, lineal
> descendants of Finarfin?

No. The Noldor with blond hair were part Vanya in their ancestry
(though there were dark-haired Noldor of Vanyarin ancestry). Idril,
daughter of Turgon was blonde, due to her mother Elenwe being a Vanya; she
was not descended from Finarfin.

Since the Noldor and Vanyar lived close to each other, Noldo-Vanya
intermarriages were not uncommon. So it would not be surprising to see
many blond Noldor not of a royal house.

> Specifically, who in relative terms is Glorfindel?

Glorfindel appears to be a noble Noldo, probably of Vanyarin ancestry,
but there is no evidence that he was directly related to the royal house of
Finwe. If he were, it would seem strange to me that Tolkien would not have
mentioned this in his essay on the question of Glorfindel's status in _The
Peoples of Middle-earth_ (p. 377 passim).

David Salo