Phoebe Feedback required
Dickon Hood
stu...@cybervillage.takeoutthisbit.co.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
: I've been contacted by certain parties interested in launching the Phoebe
: computer but the question on everyones lips is there a large enough demand
: for it?
What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
: So, if you are seriously interested in purchasing a Phoebe computer if they
: are made available you can greatly help in this area by going to the Acorn
: Cybervillage web page in the Hotnet Acorn section and reading the Market
: Research page and submitting the form to us.
What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
--
Dickon Hood
Due to binaries posted to non-binary newsgroups, my .sig is
temporarily unavailable. Normal service will be resumed as soon as
possible. We apologise for the inconvenience in the mean time.
Andy McMullon
<URL:mailto:s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
>
The trouble is that this is a Catch 22 - how many people will respond
when they don't really know what is on offer - or if there is an
alternative.
Phoebe - yes please, soon and as cheap as possible.
ChiOS PCI - yes please, but I suspect it will be quite a while.
RiscOS on CATS(or similar) - is anyone trying?
RiscOS on FT multi-ARM10 - YES please, but when?
The longer it takes the more likely it is that people will wait for
alternatives. The touble is the longer it takes the smaller the
potential market will become and the less likely any of the other
projects will happen.
Surely this is why Acorn pulled the plug. And if something doesn't
happen soon there will be no bathwater left!
We do need Phoebe - soonest - and we all neeed to support it! The
consequences are to dire to contemplate..........:-(
--
Andy: skyp...@bigfoot.com / http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk
New aircraft pictures at http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk/bbmf.htm
Howard Cutler
stu...@cybervillage.takeoutthisbit.co.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
> I've been contacted by certain parties interested in launching the Phoebe
> computer but the question on everyones lips is there a large enough demand
> for it?
>snip
Oh no, how many mores times have we all to go through this process?
If we continue like this we'll never see Phoebe except for a mountain
off repeated paper demands!
Cheers,
Adge
=============================================================================
** 233MHz Acorn RiscPC **
P133 Co-Processor running Win98Plus!
Howard Cutler adg...@adgecut.demon.co.uk
WWW: http://www.adgecut.demon.co.uk
=============================================================================
Chika
Steve Holroyd <s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>
> Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> >
> > What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
I did try, but it timed out when calling the posting cgi.
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe Reg.No. 128
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages aICQ UIN 15258170
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... I'm dangerous when I know what I'm doing.
Chika
In article <ant25151...@mcfamily.demon.co.uk>,
Andy McMullon <skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> The trouble is that this is a Catch 22 - how many people will respond
> when they don't really know what is on offer - or if there is an
> alternative.
> Phoebe - yes please, soon and as cheap as possible.
Can't argue with that. If it means buying a motherboard and essential bits
and building the rest from available stock then so be it, I don't really
mind!
> ChiOS PCI - yes please, but I suspect it will be quite a while.
I'm still not sure about this one. I'll reserve judgement for now...
> RiscOS on CATS(or similar) - is anyone trying?
If they do, I'm interested. The CATS board looks good as it is... hmm...
ChiOS PCI board on a CATS anyone? ;)
> RiscOS on FT multi-ARM10 - YES please, but when?
Hmm.... maybe...
I think that the uncertainty is getting me more than anything else. I
already decided to give Feeb until January to appear before making a move
to anything else, the choice being either something MAC based, something
CATS based or strap another RPC in and go experimenting. Whichever way it
goes, my current sys stays where it is and will most likely carry on as
the main sys for the future. I just wish I knew more of what was happening
at high level... waiting around can be very stressful!!! :)
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe Reg.No. 128
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages aICQ UIN 15258170
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... Mental Floss prevents Moral Decay.
Ray Briddock
Steve Holroyd <s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>
> Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> >
> > What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
>
> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
>
I visited the site, but was dissapointed to find no specification.
Now I could trust that the spec. would be the same as Acorn originally
publicised, or I could think that in order to get the price down,
further corners would be cut.
Either way, without solid information, I considered that it would be
misleading of me to commit to a purchase, where I don't have access to
any of the information I would normally use to make a decision.
I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
--
Ray Briddock
http://www.alphabeta.demon.co.uk (Updated 22/9/1998)
Andy McMullon
<URL:mailto:R...@alphabeta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I visited the site, but was dissapointed to find no specification.
> Now I could trust that the spec. would be the same as Acorn originally
> publicised, or I could think that in order to get the price down,
> further corners would be cut.
>
> Either way, without solid information, I considered that it would be
> misleading of me to commit to a purchase, where I don't have access to
> any of the information I would normally use to make a decision.
>
> I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
> bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
>
It was made clear that you were not commiting yourself to a purchase!
Just get signed up or you may not even have a choice!
Stuart Halliday
says...
> I visited the site, but was dissapointed to find no specification.
> Now I could trust that the spec. would be the same as Acorn originally
> publicised, or I could think that in order to get the price down,
> further corners would be cut.
Any Phoebe released would *have* to be based on Acorn's one wouldn't it?
I can't speak for these companies planning to rescue Phoebe but Acorn have a
99% virtually finished product and the spec of that is very widely know.
It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
> I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
> bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
So why mention it in a message to this newsgroup and not email me directly?
I don't read *every* posting you know? :-)
BTW.
So far I've had over 600 people filling in the form....
That was after I removed some of the daft postings from technofreaks and sad
people who thought sending 5 or 10 postings was fun!
Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
The main delays around at the moment seems to be in the raising of a couple
of million pounds to establish a viable business. Banks and the like seem to
take their time over arranging this as you can imagine....
--
Stuart Halliday
Acorn Cybervillage
http://acorn.cybervillage.co.uk/
Andy McMullon
<URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
> It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
>
> If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
Exactly!
It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
Henry Helliwell
<URL:mailto:skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.109e7010d...@news.ecs.local>, Stuart Halliday
> <URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
>
> > It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> > OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> > enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> > put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> > future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
> >
> > If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> > Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> > and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
>
> Exactly!
>
> It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
>
> Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
Exactly what I've just done, as it happens, but the person selling
wasn't getting a RPC2...
--
Henry Helliwell
he...@stohelit.demon.co.uk
Stephen Burke
> Either way, without solid information, I considered that it would be
> misleading of me to commit to a purchase, where I don't have access to
> any of the information I would normally use to make a decision.
I don't think that's really too relevant. They can't expect a very accurate
result from such a survey anyway, just a rough idea. No-one replying to it is
committing themselves AFAICS. If I were looking at the results I'd divide by at
least 2 to allow for losses once people were spending real money - although
you'd also have to multiply by some factor to allow for the many people who
won't have seen or responded to the survey. But if they only end up with a
couple of dozen responses of any kind it won't look good ...
--
e----><----p | Stephen Burke | E-mail: (anti-junk mail version)
H H 1 | Gruppe FH1T (Lancaster) | stephen.burke@
H H 11 | DESY, Notkestrasse 85 | desy.de
HHHHH 1 | 22603 Hamburg, Germany | All junk mail deleted on sight!
H H 1 | "It is also a good rule not to put too much confidence in
H H 11111 | experimental results until they have been confirmed by theory"
André van den Berg
<URL:mailto:skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.109e7010d...@news.ecs.local>, Stuart Halliday
> <URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
> > If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> > Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> > and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
>
> Exactly!
>
> It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
>
> Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
Even more important: everybody should exchange illegal copies of his
software into legal versions. I have nothing against people using such a
copy for a while but when you are seriously using it, buy it!
Support of RISC OS is also about providing bread on the shelves for the
software developers and not just selling the hardware.
Which brings me to another subject: if all softwarehouses would stop selling
directly to end users abroad, I (the dealers) could stock more software(...)
and on for example usergroup events only demonstrate the features of the
software and not spending time hassling around with credit cards and order
notes.
A mechanism should than be created that dealer stock is updated; my
customers sometimes have newer versions in use than I sell.
Some software houses sell directly but provide a finders fee for us so that
we can give support f.o.c. to users...
A very good example is Aspex (hello Nick)
The Cbervillage action to give feedback on purchase plans is of course a
good initiative but I feel that the effect of Internet is a bit overrated;
does anybody extrapolate the data of the feedback on Phoebe to the people
who don't have Internet but are Acorn users. How high (or low) is the
percentage of Acorn users with an internet connection compared to those
without? Does anybody know (or take it in account)?
Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
André van den Berg,
ECD Computers
Ernst Dinkla
<URL:mailto:ec...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
(snip)
> The Cbervillage action to give feedback on purchase plans is of course a
> good initiative but I feel that the effect of Internet is a bit overrated;
> does anybody extrapolate the data of the feedback on Phoebe to the people
> who don't have Internet but are Acorn users. How high (or low) is the
> percentage of Acorn users with an internet connection compared to those
> without? Does anybody know (or take it in account)?
What percentage would you estimate for the Netherlands André ?
The Big Ben Club has about 500 members. Of that group I guess
there are about 50 on the Internet. But the Big Ben Club doesn't
cover all the active users of Acorns and the Club has a lot of
sleeping members; paying their contribution and that's all what
we know of them. Then there are some organisations; NOB, schools
etc. that have Acorns in use and even have an Internet connection
but don't follow the Acorn newsgroups. In the UK their number must
be far higher. Acornet based on BBSses in the Netherlands will
put some Internet news through to its users but filling in the
request on Cybervillage isn't easy that way.
There's another point; the Acorn home users on the Internet are
probably wealthier than the users that aren't on the Internet.
Their equipment will be more up to date and they are more
interested in getting even newer machines. The Internet users
that work with Acorns in their jobs or business will fall in the
same category. The number of students among the Internet users
will be high so that may dampen the effect of the two other groups.
The Internet users will be better informed than the other group.
Will that influence their decision and in which direction?
Taken this all in account I think it is bloody difficult to estimate
any number of potential buyers based on Internet requests.
If you take the number of RPCs sold by Acorn over the period August
1997/1998. Do you expect that they could sell an equal amount of
PRPC2s in one year, or a half that number in one year, or a quarter?
That's the question the United Dealers and Xemplar must have an
answer for with their experience in the past.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla Serigrafie,Zeefdruk edi...@inter.nl.net
All views expressed are my own and may have no relation whatsoever
to the views of Acorn, Intel, Tulip, IBM, ARM, Sun, Compaq, Micro-
Chris Hughes
<URL:mailto:skyp...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.109e7010d...@news.ecs.local>, Stuart Halliday
> <URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
>
> > OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> > enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> > put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> > future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
> >
> > Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> > and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
>
> Exactly!
>
> It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
>
> Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
An interesting point.
I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
(Putting flame proof suit on) :-)
--
Chris Hughes, Member of Wakefield Acorn Computer (User) Group
(The views expressed above are mine, and not necessarily the User Group's)
Alan Muscat
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
>
>Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
>encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
>
>The main delays around at the moment seems to be in the raising of a couple
>of million pounds to establish a viable business. Banks and the like seem to
>take their time over arranging this as you can imagine....
>
Stuart, are you in a position to give us a summary of the current situation.
Who is doing what? Is Peter Bondar involved anymore? Is the situation hopeful?
It all seems to have gone very quiet. Where are we up to?
--
Alan Muscat
*************** Grapevine Digital Arts ***********************
************** http://www.gvine.demon.co.uk *********************
S.J. Crocker
Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
£750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
Thomas Boroske
André van den Berg <ec...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Which brings me to another subject: if all softwarehouses would stop selling
> directly to end users abroad, I (the dealers) could stock more software(...)
Don't even dare to suggest this. So far I've always found a dealer here
in Germany for my software purchases, but their number has become so
low that it's close to none. In that situation, it's somewhat unrealistic
to suggest that software companies should only sell through dealers,
and not direct, when there simply isn't the dealer network to support
it.
Yes, chicken and egg situation of a sort, but the dealer situation here
in Germany was *lots* better two years ago for example, and even then
practically no-one could hope to have a dealer in walking distance.
You're suggesting that software developers should, sort of, subside
the dealer network by not selling direct to customers (I gather that
direct sales give more cash to the developer, seems obvious).
That is particularily dangerous in a market that's simply too
small, and may lead to results opposite to what you expect.
Kind regards,
--
Thomas Boroske
astral alice
> >I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
> >
> >Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
> >now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
> >was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
> >have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
S J. Crocker said:
> Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
> £750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
> wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
I agree. I didn't even realise that software and things were being
included. The dealers I spoke to all said they didn't really know
what the spec of the machine was going to be - they knew some
technical details but nothing about the PC card or what else would
come in the bundle...
alice.
--
***********************************************************************
* astral alice: bi, poly, goth | http://www.darkwave.org.uk/~alice *
* astra on Cut | telnet://cut.meep.org:4040 *
* ------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* "Love belongs to Desire, and Desire is always cruel." - The Sandman *
***********************************************************************
Fred Bambrough
sj...@cam.ac.uk (S.J. Crocker) wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:31:41 +0000, Chris Hughes
> <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
[snip]
> >
> >An interesting point.
> >
> >I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
> >
> >Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
> >now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
> >was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
> >have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
>
> Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
> Ł750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
> wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
Is that assuming that Acorn would've paid full retail price for the
software? Unlikely, I would think. I have a feeling your discount would
be somewhat smaller.
--
Fred
Mailto:fr...@ypical.demon.co.uk
PGP key available
Acorn International
<snip>
>
> Even more important: everybody should exchange illegal copies of his
> software into legal versions.
>
hear, hear, who is saying this!
This man is given illegal copies away to steady customers in the past and now
he is saying about not giving away illegal copies of software !!!
Even Acorn Computers Ltd. knows this!
> Which brings me to another subject: if all softwarehouses would stop selling
> directly to end users abroad, I (the dealers) could stock more software(...)
> and on for example usergroup events only demonstrate the features of the
> software
>
Correct, I totally agree with this!
>
> Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
>
> André van den Berg,
>
Vriendelijke groeten,
Sincerely,
Simon Elzinga,
Datawave Nederland,
si...@datawave.demon.nl
--
Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them
Acorn RiscPC Computers - NR. 1 in Computer Technology
No Millenium Problems - No virusses at All - The NR. 1
André van den Berg
> hear, hear, who is saying this!
> This man is given illegal copies away to steady customers in the past and now
> he is saying about not giving away illegal copies of software !!!
> Even Acorn Computers Ltd. knows this!
>
Not true at all/not at all true.
Many times it concerned either outdated or demoversions or very high quality
PD-stuff (confusing for first time users).
After all: I've sold the largest amount of Impressions, Artworks or any
other popular program, to private end users and companies.
I don't know the exact no. of Impression sold (many);PC's generate 80% of my
turnover and I've sold four(sic) original WP's in ten years.
I alway said to my customers: 'If you are going to use this seriously, buy
an original!'
WordPerfect got popular because students were using illegal copies.
Their universities and lecturers HAD to BUY...
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Andre van den Berg
ECD Computers Automatisering / Detachering
Patrijsweg 16
2289 EX Rijswijk / The Netherlands
Tel. +31(0)70 319 4343
Fax: +31(0)70 319 4963
VATNo: NL009507590B01
Acorn E-mail : ec...@xs4all.nl
ECD E-mail : a...@ecd.nl
PC E-mail : in...@ecd.nl
Detachering E-mail: detac...@ecd.nl
Homepage : http://www.ecd.nl
Ernst Dinkla
<URL:mailto:fr...@ypical.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <3636f447....@nntp-serv.cam.ac.uk>
> sj...@cam.ac.uk (S.J. Crocker) wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:31:41 +0000, Chris Hughes
> > <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount, i.e.
> > >now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of software that
> > >was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would
> > >have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
> >
> > Hmmm... If they'd done a version without that software for about
> > £750, they would probably have had a lot more demand and maybe they
> > wouldn't have cancelled it... Hmmm...
>
> Is that assuming that Acorn would've paid full retail price for the
> software? Unlikely, I would think. I have a feeling your discount would
> be somewhat smaller.
I know one example where Acorn would deliver a PRPC2 in exchange
for software. Without that software the total price of 5000? PRPC2s
would drop by half the price of one PRPC2 (no dealer margin but
transport included). Enough airbicycling as we say.
Simon Elzinga
Liam Gretton
<URL:mailto:si...@datawave.demon.nl> wrote:
> Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them
>
> Acorn RiscPC Computers - NR. 1 in Computer Technology
>
> No Millenium Problems - No virusses at All - The NR. 1
Stop beating about the bush - tell us what you really think!
--
Liam Gretton l...@star.le.ac.uk
Space Research Centre, li...@binliner.demon.co.uk
Physics and Astronomy Dept, phone +44 (0) 116 223 1039
Leicester University, fax +44 (0) 116 252 2464
Leicester LE1 7RH, UK http://xmm4.xra.le.ac.uk/
Stuart Halliday
says...
> Stuart, are you in a position to give us a summary of the current situation.
> Who is doing what? Is Peter Bondar involved anymore? Is the situation hopeful?
> It all seems to have gone very quiet.
Well, the 'Tulip' group seem to be keeping very quiet but I've heard that an
announcement of some sort is due within 7 days...
Good or bad I've no idea!
> Where are we up to?
At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise money to
continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development (which IMHO is the only
sensible real-world option).
They don't want their names mentioned because of any false hopes this may
raise. When they've got any positive news they'll release it.
The trouble with the Internet is that news stories can break and collapse
within hours of each other and so we get all the churned up peaks and
troughs.
A magazine reader on the other hand just gets the bottom line... :-)
P.S.
someone asked on another thread of the estimate number of Acorn users on the
Internet. Well, judging by the number of my 'Quantum Software' customers who
give email addresses. I think a figure of around 25% is a fair number.
John Tytgat
> > hear, hear, who is saying this!
> > This man is given illegal copies away to steady customers in the past and now
> > he is saying about not giving away illegal copies of software !!!
> > Even Acorn Computers Ltd. knows this!
>
> Not true at all/not at all true.
Ahem, ahem, ahem... Computers sold with a harddisc *full* (= 0 bytes free)
of software whom several commercial programs & fonts...
> Many times it concerned either outdated
^^^^^^^^
Giving away outdated commercial software is still illegal !
> or demoversions or very high quality PD-stuff (confusing for first
> time users).
Or *shareware* (which is *not* PD !) programs and the fact that it were
shareware programs was cunnely omitted in the brochures.
> After all: I've sold the largest amount of Impressions, Artworks or any
> other popular program, to private end users and companies.
> I don't know the exact no. of Impression sold (many);PC's generate 80% of my
> turnover and I've sold four(sic) original WP's in ten years.
So what ? What does this proove ? That giving away illegal copies of
commercial software results in sales afterwards ?
John.
--
John Tytgat "Never make any mistaeks."
John....@barco.com (anonymous)
Dave Roberts
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
>At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise money to
>continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development (which IMHO is the
>only sensible real-world option).
It's only sensible, IMO, if they sod RISCOS 4 development and go straight
for RISCOS 5 or 6! If this isn't possible then the FT project is infinitely
more sensible. Maintaining the status quo isn't acceptible.
--
Dave Roberts
Simon Elzinga
<URL:mailto:l...@star.le.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant29120...@datawave.demon.nl>, Simon Elzinga
> <URL:mailto:si...@datawave.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> > Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them
> >
> > Acorn RiscPC Computers - NR. 1 in Computer Technology
> >
> > No Millenium Problems - No virusses at All - The NR. 1
>
> Stop beating about the bush - tell us what you really think!
>
for everyone, you can easily program with riscos and lots of other
things ya can do with it, what is NOT possible with W95 or W98 or
other MsDom packages.
Ta,
Simon.
--
J W B Greenwood
<URL:mailto:mrp...@leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <MPG.10a26f6ad...@news.ecs.local>,
> stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
>
> >At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise money to
> >continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development (which IMHO is the
> >only sensible real-world option).
>
> It's only sensible, IMO, if they sod RISCOS 4 development and go straight
> for RISCOS 5 or 6! If this isn't possible then the FT project is infinitely
> more sensible. Maintaining the status quo isn't acceptible.
>
Why not RISC OS 15 or 16, which would include a decision table driven
compiler to configure drivers for any peripheral to be attached, or
likely to be attached, to the machine. It should be possible in the
next two years, by that time I'll have save up enough to pay cash for
such a machine. We stoics can suffer much in return for 'jam
tomorrow'.
--
Stuart Marshall
Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > It is getting very close to "put your money where your mouth is" time!
> > Of course it should be obvious that getting the best possible pricing on
> > Phoebe is essential. Acorn's original price was never going to get all
> > those A30x0 people to upgrade - they were far more likely to be buying
> > up the old RPCs at bargain prices!
> An interesting point.
Indeed.
> I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about it.
As was I.. what a coincidence :-)
> Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum
> discount, i.e. now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the
> various bits of software that was being included originally,
> around 500 ukp, meaning the machine would have actually cost 750
> ukp. Not a bad price!
To be honest, I have to agree here. However (okay, you knew that
was coming :-) ), the problem is not that the price itself is bad
value for money but that it is still a *lot* of money.
I'd honestly say that the price itself is *secondary* to a *good*
credit scheme. If a good deal something like the 20-20 finance
deal can be arranged I'd estimate that would help sales as much
(if not more) than setting a sensible RRP for the machine.
> (Putting flame proof suit on) :-)
As always... ;-)
Cheers,
--
__ _
Stuart Marshall, Programmer. * PGP Key * (_ ._ o _| _ ._ _ _ _|_ _|_
http://www.spidersoft.co.uk/ * Available * __)|_)|(_|(/_| _>(_) | |_
Moderator of comp.sys.acorn announce. | stu...@spidersoft.co.uk
Stuart Marshall
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
> > Stuart, are you in a position to give us a summary of the current
> > situation. Who is doing what? Is Peter Bondar involved anymore?
> > Is the situation hopeful? It all seems to have gone very quiet.
> Well, the 'Tulip' group seem to be keeping very quiet but I've
> heard that an announcement of some sort is due within 7 days...
After the information leaking out last time who can blame them.
> Good or bad I've no idea!
As more time passes I think people are losing hope... :-(
> > Where are we up to?
> At least two groups that I know of are currently trying to raise
> money to continue Phoebe and therefore RISC OS 4 development
> (which IMHO is the only sensible real-world option).
I couldn't agree more. The "techies" have gotten carried away with
Linux (and the like) solutions. I'm not in any way against these
- but the *majority* of *Acorn* computer users want a new Acorn
Risc OS computer, and if it came to the crunch *I* believe many
would switch to Windows in preference to Linux. The market is
shallow enough without another slice disappearing.
> They don't want their names mentioned because of any false hopes
> this may raise. When they've got any positive news they'll
> release it.
Sounds sensible.
> The trouble with the Internet is that news stories can break and
> collapse within hours of each other and so we get all the churned
> up peaks and troughs.
Again, agreed. Also, after what has already happened so far I
doubt any party would like information to escape out until it is
definate.
> A magazine reader on the other hand just gets the bottom line... :-)
...and usually the wrong one :-)
> someone asked on another thread of the estimate number of Acorn
> users on the Internet. Well, judging by the number of my 'Quantum
> Software' customers who give email addresses. I think a figure of
> around 25% is a fair number.
I'd go along with that. I also think that the majority of Acorn
users who are interested in becoming net users have already done
signed up - and that this figure is unlikely to rise much...
(at least unless a new machine does end up being released).
Stephen Burke
> A magazine reader on the other hand just gets the bottom line... :-)
Not really, you just get a snapshot which was probably out of date the day
after it went to press ...
Tony Houghton
> I couldn't agree more. The "techies" have gotten carried away with
> Linux (and the like) solutions. I'm not in any way against these
> - but the *majority* of *Acorn* computer users want a new Acorn
> Risc OS computer, and if it came to the crunch *I* believe many
> would switch to Windows in preference to Linux. The market is
> shallow enough without another slice disappearing.
I think you're right. From reading this group it's clear that most
people who would buy another Acorn don't care what mess is "under the
bonnet" of the OS, don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
replace the house's fuses, and will defend/ignore terrible faults to
the extent that they'll even claim they're an advantage (eg "how do
you get a chance of a coffee break if your computer is usable during
printing?"). They should love Windows.
Greg Hennessy
> don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
>replace the house's fuses,
ROFL ! Excellent analogy :-)
greg
Ruth Gunstone
Stuart Marshall <stu...@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant271241345YH%4...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk>
> Chris Hughes <ch...@cumbrian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I was just reviewing those original Phoebe prices, and thinking about
> > it.
>
> As was I.. what a coincidence :-)
>
> > Full price was 1750 ukp with monitor, minus 500 ukp maximum discount,
> > i.e. now 1250 ukp, then look at the value of the various bits of
> > software that was being included originally, around 500 ukp, meaning
> > the machine would have actually cost 750 ukp. Not a bad price!
>
> To be honest, I have to agree here. However (okay, you knew that was
> coming :-) ), the problem is not that the price itself is bad value for
> money but that it is still a *lot* of money.
>
> I'd honestly say that the price itself is *secondary* to a *good* credit
> scheme. If a good deal something like the 20-20 finance deal can be
> arranged I'd estimate that would help sales as much (if not more) than
> setting a sensible RRP for the machine.
I definitely agree!
My existing RPC was only bought because the 20/20 scheme made it possible
for me. I suspect that any upgrade to Phoebe/Phoenix/Whatever will be
similarly influenced (in 6 months time when I've paid for this machine!!).
--
Ruth Gunstone || A 202MHz StrongARM User. ||
|| Now - can someone build me a computer ||
|| around it please?! ||
======================================================
|| Web-Site: http://www.bolsterstone.demon.co.uk/ ||
|| ||
|| Member of the Wakefield Acorn Computer Group ||
|| (Opinions expressed are MINE ALONE) ||
Dunstan Orchard
<stu...@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd honestly say that the price itself is *secondary* to a *good*
> credit scheme. If a good deal something like the 20-20 finance
> deal can be arranged I'd estimate that would help sales as much
> (if not more) than setting a sensible RRP for the machine.
Too right. I've just finished university and haven't yet got a job, so I'm
in no position to fork out 1750ukp. However, I would like to support the
new development, and would definitely like to buy Pheobe. I'm sure there
must be lots of people in the same position (someone else wrote a similar
article the other day) who want to get involved, but don't have the cash.
I would rather pay a couple hundred quid more in the long term if it meant I
could spread payment over a period of time.
This is one of the reasons I was interested to know more about Chiber as it
sounds like it could work out cheaper. Still, either way I won't be able to
pledge my financial support to a new computer unless there is a sympathetic
payment scheme.
- dunstan
--
dun...@argonet.co.uk
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dunstan
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:ru...@bolsterstone.demon.com.uk> wrote:
> I definitely agree!
>
> My existing RPC was only bought because the 20/20 scheme made it possible
> for me. I suspect that any upgrade to Phoebe/Phoenix/Whatever will be
> similarly influenced (in 6 months time when I've paid for this machine!!).
Agreed. I will definitely buy a Phoebe, but don't have even 1000.00 lying
around to pay for it, so would opt for a credit scheme if one was available.
--
Paul Vigay Computer Resources Manager,
__\\|//__ Bohunt Community School
Web: http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') Liphook, Hampshire
BBS: +44 (0)1705 871531 (ansi,8n1) ----ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
All views my own and I reserve the right to change them without warning!
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:stu...@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> I couldn't agree more. The "techies" have gotten carried away with
> Linux (and the like) solutions. I'm not in any way against these
> - but the *majority* of *Acorn* computer users want a new Acorn
> Risc OS computer, and if it came to the crunch *I* believe many
> would switch to Windows in preference to Linux. The market is
> shallow enough without another slice disappearing.
Actually, last week I decided to ditch Windows and install Linux on my PC. I
bought the official Red Hat 5.1 distribution which is actually a doddle to
install on a regular PC and one I don't believe should put off too many
people. It's certainly a lot easier to install than ArmLinux on the RPC and
it's pretty much an out of the box installation and shouldn't take more than
about an hour to get Linux up and running with a nice Window manager.
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> I think you're right. From reading this group it's clear that most
> people who would buy another Acorn don't care what mess is "under the
> bonnet" of the OS, don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
> replace the house's fuses, and will defend/ignore terrible faults to
> the extent that they'll even claim they're an advantage (eg "how do
> you get a chance of a coffee break if your computer is usable during
> printing?"). They should love Windows.
I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think it's a valid point. I'm
quite often working non-stop on the computer, thinking "I'll just do this bit
and add that" and then I'll have a break. Some 2 hours later I'm still
programming away, so I love it when I can get the computer to do something
which might take a little while so I can think "Ahhh, that's done" I'll go and
have a cup of tea etc.
A prime example is when compiling a new program. Whilst I'm programming I'm
totally engrossed in it and often completely ignore external things. However,
it's nice to get to the point you can start a compile which might take a
little while and slow tha machine down a bit (the compiler does still
multi-task, but the machine becomes slightly sluggish to use) and I can lean
back, go and have a cup of tea, visit the loo etc and have a nice convenient
stopping point for a break.
It the machine didn't slow down for the odd task, I'd probably never get
around to eating or anything.
:-)
Tony Houghton
I thought you usually complained that printing also made multitasking
computers unusably slow (not that that's true). If you're working on
one project you have little choice but to wait for it to compile,
whether you can multitask or not [1]. Printing's rather a different
matter IMO, and what's to stop you taking a break at "milestones" like
that just because you want to? It's better than being forced to.
[1] RISC OS tends to make a hash of trying to multitask 2 compilation
jobs anyway.
Lionel Smith
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> ROFL ! Excellent analogy :-)
Only if you're drunk! ;-)
Lionel
--
___ ______
/ / / ___/ 6 grandchildren | Sea Vixen for pugnacity
/ / ionel A.| \ mith 4 children & 1 dog | Hunter for elegance
/ /____ __\ | No wonder life is a breeze | Phantom for clout
/_______/ /_____/ lio...@argonet.co.uk | IT Tech. Supp. | ZFC B+2
Join a Microsoft Foundation Class, and go away brainwashed.
Richard Walker
Paul Vigay <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Actually, last week I decided to ditch Windows and install Linux on my
> PC. I bought the official Red Hat 5.1 distribution which is actually a
> doddle to install on a regular PC and one I don't believe should put off
> too many people. It's certainly a lot easier to install than ArmLinux on
> the RPC and it's pretty much an out of the box installation and shouldn't
> take more than about an hour to get Linux up and running with a nice
> Window manager.
Hmm. RedHat 5.1, eh?
I've recently installed this very beast on a borrowed P233MMX. Actually,
it was the cheap (no manual/support/box) version, but the content of the CD
is the same - hey 2ukp or 30ukp... I know which! :-)
I amazed myself by getting it to:
a) dual-boot with Windows 95
(hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
b) run a bootp server (which my NC uses)
b) export a directory over NFS (for my NC)
Unfortunately, I have not yet managed to:
a) get it working on the Internet!!!
PPP scripts are fiddly, and it doesn't seem to like my internal modem,
which should be addressable by talking to COM3. It kind of works - but
VERY slowly. ATI1 etc. seems to take forever. :-(
b) install a workable Window Manager (fvwm-95 stinks!)
KDE and Gnome (Win 95 lookalikes?) are on the CD. Should I install
those? Or is there something nicer?
c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
And, I'm also not sure if I like this 'RedHat' distribution at all. It had
a very strong 'Microsoft Windows' smell about it. Know what I mean? Is
SuSE/Debian any better? (a question for the experts!)
Oh, and, looking at http://www.redhat.com, there's a MASSIVE list of RPMs
which I should apparently download because they contain lots of (mainly
'security') 'fixes' to certain parts of the OS/apps. Should I bother?
It's a big job!
Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
book? (50 quid - yikes!)
--
Richard.
"I wanna hold your hand, I wanna hold your hand."
Thomas Leonard
> In article <slrn73m10...@tonyh.tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> <URL:mailto:to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> > I think you're right. From reading this group it's clear that most
> > people who would buy another Acorn don't care what mess is "under the
> > bonnet" of the OS, don't call a crash a crash unless it forces them to
> > replace the house's fuses, and will defend/ignore terrible faults to
> > the extent that they'll even claim they're an advantage (eg "how do
> > you get a chance of a coffee break if your computer is usable during
> > printing?"). They should love Windows.
> I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think it's a valid point. I'm
> quite often working non-stop on the computer, thinking "I'll just do this bit
> and add that" and then I'll have a break. Some 2 hours later I'm still
> programming away, so I love it when I can get the computer to do something
> which might take a little while so I can think "Ahhh, that's done" I'll go and
> have a cup of tea etc.
> It the machine didn't slow down for the odd task, I'd probably never get
> around to eating or anything.
So set an alarm to go off every half hour saying "Take a break". Make it
freeze the computer if you want (freezing Linux is hard, but you can
stop your X server for a while quite easily).
But at least give people the choice - I might *need* to do something
*now* (because I have to catch a bus / meet a deadline / whatever).
Thomas Leonard
--
tal...@ecs.soton.ac.uk
2nd year computer science
RISC OS freeware to download at http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~tal197/
Manuel Timmers
<URL:mailto:stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk> wrote:
> In article <f89dbb9a48%R...@alphabeta.demon.co.uk>, R...@alphabeta.demon.co.uk
> says...
> Any Phoebe released would *have* to be based on Acorn's one wouldn't it?
...OK, Stuart. Which corners are about to be cut?
> I can't speak for these companies planning to rescue Phoebe but Acorn have a
> 99% virtually finished product and the spec of that is very widely know.
This is the most strange of all things. Why stop when when the product
as practically finished.... weird, weird, weird....
> It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
This is in direct contradiction to what Acorn was formerly steering
into. It was told from the beginning that Phoebe would be a computer for
the enthousiast market which IS a small market. So how are/were they
going to realise "healty sales" when you ain't got more than a few 1000
"enthousiasts" with enough cash to spend?
By abandoning the (continental) market again like they did in 1987!
Actually they've gone even a step further... they abandonned the entire
Acorn community now! Djeez, what a bunch a stupid...
IMHO we should HANG Stan Boland for this...
> If the RiscPC2 is released then all those "Acorn users committed to the
> Acorn market" still using a A30x0 should spend some money on a new computer
> and give the hardware and software Acorn market some real support!
If Acorn didn't "pre-"announce this Phoebe MORE than a year before then
many more ppl would have bought even a Risc PC today! How many dealers
feel sacked after waiting for so long while their market was killed off
more than year ago, later spending thousands of pounds on ACTUALL
advertisments for a new product which finally WOULD have increased sales
for them and then Acorn easily abandon the whole thing!
Secondly: Haven't anybody at Acorn realised that their hardware is
SIMPLY OVERPRICED!!! The worst thing is that MANY ppl have offered help
to decrease the cost of building Risc OS computers (e.g. talk to Edwin
Pang from Proton for actual facts!!!) but Acorn wants astronomical
amounts of cash for a licence to produce computers. Odly everybody is
talking about how cheap ARM-cpu's are, How cheap and how great that
ARM-support chips are etc... but yet the overal retail price of ANY
Acorn machine is way above their actual value... and then you wonder:
WHY can't ppl buy new Acorn's every 3 or 5 years...
> > I wonder how many others felt the same. Perhaps a comment box at the
> > bottom of the web page may elicit some response.
>
> So why mention it in a message to this newsgroup and not email me directly?
> I don't read *every* posting you know? :-)
Look I do appreciate your efforts in saving the platform but why isn't
Acorn helping us a bit. WE spend thousands of pounds in hard AND
software for this platform unlike ANY USER on WIntel or Apple systems.
So why are they negative to us... by not delivering their promisses
(even the Clan newsletter is FULL of promisses), signing deals with ppl
WE support (e.g. P. Bondar) and then sweeping away that deal as if it
never excisted... What kind of arrogant assholes are they?
> BTW.
> So far I've had over 600 people filling in the form....
600 X 999 UKP = 599400 UKP (that's about 35 million Bfr or 12 million
guldens) for that amount even Proton could build Phoebes!!!
> That was after I removed some of the daft postings from technofreaks and sad
> people who thought sending 5 or 10 postings was fun!
>
> Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
> encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
Don't forget that: soon = before the end of THIS year for most of us.
> The main delays around at the moment seems to be in the raising of a couple
> of million pounds to establish a viable business. Banks and the like seem to
> take their time over arranging this as you can imagine....
>
Why would you do that. Pass the deal on to excisting companies. Why
doesn't Acorn collaborate with Psion? Why doesn't they step to the
European community (again), the British goverment (I'm sure those awards
still mean anything...), for god's sake step to Richard Branson if
needed!
BTW. Here's the :-) <--- when needed.
Regards,
Manuel
--
Manuel Timmers, StarLight Corp., email star...@innet.be
Personal WWW-pages at http://www.club.innet.be/~year0332/
StarLight Corp. WWW-pages at http://www.whib.be/starcorp
**** Acorn Risc OS Systems: Seeing is Believing! ****
Rob Speed
<star...@innet.be> writes
>
>IMHO we should HANG Stan Boland for this...
Hear hear, I'll just nip and get the portable gallows -
Damn and bother - they're industry standard and so keep falling
over!
--
Rob Speed
Vitesse Systems Laboratories.
Leeds, Yorkshire, England.
Simon Elzinga
<snip>
>
> > I can't speak for these companies planning to rescue Phoebe but Acorn have a
> > 99% virtually finished product and the spec of that is very widely know.
>
> This is the most strange of all things. Why stop when when the product
> as practically finished.... weird, weird, weird....
>
Probably they need an extra million pound to produce the phoebes!
Someway to do this, they haven't the money for this, so they quit with the
production, redunce the workstation devision, sad for those people, quitting
the acorn world show and going down under as well within a 14 months, not
necessary, then Peter Bondar Must return, then acorn is saved, otherwise
with Stan Booland as ceo, Acorn is D O O M E D FOREVER !!! IMHO.:-(((((((((((
I have even called the man for an answer on this, no answer at all.
Can you see, what a bad SERVICE that man is giving to Acorn Dealers oversees.:-(
> > It should be obvious to anyone that for the future development of the RISC
> > OS computer market that to develop 32-bit RISC OS, multi-processors, further
> > enhancements to RISC OS, etc. will require healthy sales of the RiscPC2 and
> > put quite simply if that doesn't happen then probably neither will any
> > future RISC OS developments. IMHO.
>
And what about Galileo then ???
> This is in direct contradiction to what Acorn was formerly steering
> into. It was told from the beginning that Phoebe would be a computer for
> the enthousiast market which IS a small market. So how are/were they
> going to realise "healty sales" when you ain't got more than a few 1000
> "enthousiasts" with enough cash to spend?
>
> By abandoning the (continental) market again like they did in 1987!
> Actually they've gone even a step further... they abandonned the entire
> Acorn community now! Djeez, what a bunch a stupid...
>
> IMHO we should HANG Stan Boland for this...
SHALL WE GO THEN TO Cambridge ???
<snip>
> If Acorn didn't "pre-"announce this Phoebe MORE than a year before then
> many more ppl would have bought even a Risc PC today! How many dealers
> feel sacked after waiting for so long while their market was killed off
> more than year ago, later spending thousands of pounds on ACTUALL
> advertisments for a new product which finally WOULD have increased sales
> for them and then Acorn easily abandon the whole thing!
SHIT !!!
>
> Secondly: Haven't anybody at Acorn realised that their hardware is
> SIMPLY OVERPRICED!!!
You damm sure about that !!!
>
> Look I do appreciate your efforts in saving the platform but why isn't
> Acorn helping us a bit. WE spend thousands of pounds in hard AND
> software for this platform unlike ANY USER on WIntel or Apple systems.
> So why are they negative to us... by not delivering their promisses
> (even the Clan newsletter is FULL of promisses), signing deals with ppl
> WE support (e.g. P. Bondar) and then sweeping away that deal as if it
> never excisted... What kind of arrogant assholes are they?
arrogant ???
No, not arrogant, but very FOOLISH !!!
Especially for whole of the Acorn community.
> > BTW.
> > So far I've had over 600 people filling in the form....
>
> 600 X 999 UKP = 599400 UKP (that's about 35 million Bfr or 12 million
> guldens) for that amount even Proton could build Phoebes!!!
12 million guiders ????
Goto school, Manu :-) - this should be 1.5 million guilders or so what.
> > Most people want the Phoebe as soon as possible of course and this is very
> > encouraging with only a few wanting the Moon on a stick!
>
> Don't forget that: soon = before the end of THIS year for most of us.
I agree with tis, i want one too.
> Regards,
>
> Manuel
Regards,
Simon
--
Intel is TRASH - MicroSoft is GARBAGE - Better Blow them SKY HIGH !!!
dgs
Simon Elzinga <si...@datawave.demon.nl> wrote:
> Probably they need an extra million pound to produce the phoebes!
> Someway to do this, they haven't the money for this,
Actually they had plenty of money lying around, as has been said
over and over again.
They pulled out of the workstation market because;
(i) They didn't feel they were going to make a profit long-term.
(ii) They wanted to re-structure and "streamline" the company,
partly for reasons that had nothing to do with the advantages or
otherwise of Phoebe.
...
> with Stan Booland as ceo, Acorn is D O O M E D FOREVER !!! IMHO.:-(((((((((((
> I have even called the man for an answer on this, no answer at all.
Oddly enough, *most* people don't pick up the phone when people call
them in order to tell them about D O O M and lots of exclamation
marks. Quite understandable, really.
I understand that Stan has sent some quite polite replies to some
people on this newsgroup, which is very creditable, considering all
the hate mail he must be getting.
[ followups to .advocacy please ]
Manchester Acorn User Group - http://www.acorn.manchester.ac.uk/
RPC x86 Card Info Pages - http://acorn.cybervillage.co.uk/pccard/
"Your machine is NOT dead until it stops working" - Ian Gledhill
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> a) dual-boot with Windows 95
> (hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
Hehe! I decided to bin Windows completely and just have Linux.
> a) get it working on the Internet!!!
>
> PPP scripts are fiddly, and it doesn't seem to like my internal modem,
> which should be addressable by talking to COM3. It kind of works - but
> VERY slowly. ATI1 etc. seems to take forever. :-(
I managed this on the Acorn ARMLinux, but I haven't tried it on the Intel
version yet.
> b) install a workable Window Manager (fvwm-95 stinks!)
>
> KDE and Gnome (Win 95 lookalikes?) are on the CD. Should I install
> those? Or is there something nicer?
I actually quite like the After Step one that comes on the CD.
> c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
> 'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
I've got Xwindows working at 1200x1024 but it still pans around, which can get
annoying, but I haven't experimented with the script files to redefine the
virtual screen size yet.
Kira L. Brown
Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
[RedHat exploits]
>
> a) dual-boot with Windows 95
> (hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
LILO is your friend :-)
> Unfortunately, I have not yet managed to:
>
> a) get it working on the Internet!!!
>
> PPP scripts are fiddly, and it doesn't seem to like my internal modem,
> which should be addressable by talking to COM3. It kind of works - but
> VERY slowly. ATI1 etc. seems to take forever. :-(
You should use kppp, which is easy to set up, if you have
>
> b) install a workable Window Manager (fvwm-95 stinks!)
>
> KDE and Gnome (Win 95 lookalikes?) are on the CD. Should I install
> those? Or is there something nicer?
...installed the KDE. Which is nice :-)
> c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
> 'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
XF86Setup at a command line when X is not running.
> And, I'm also not sure if I like this 'RedHat' distribution at all. It had
> a very strong 'Microsoft Windows' smell about it. Know what I mean? Is
> SuSE/Debian any better? (a question for the experts!)
SuSE is nicer but rougher. I don't like Debian, but then, everyone
knows how weird I am. SuSE is more server-oriented. harder to set up
though.
> Oh, and, looking at http://www.redhat.com, there's a MASSIVE list of RPMs
> which I should apparently download because they contain lots of (mainly
> 'security') 'fixes' to certain parts of the OS/apps. Should I bother?
> It's a big job!
Yes.
> Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
> book? (50 quid - yikes!)
No, you need an expert for a little while. When you've had an expert for
a while, you'll be one yourself, and repay your social contract.
kira.
--
I'm using ZapEmail's signature facility, but I haven't installed my own file
yet... maybe this will remind me.
This is a tagline.
Greg Hennessy
<runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
> 'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
>
Kill X & run XF86Setup. Its pretty obvious from there on.
>And, I'm also not sure if I like this 'RedHat' distribution at all. It had
>a very strong 'Microsoft Windows' smell about it. Know what I mean? Is
>SuSE/Debian any better? (a question for the experts!)
>
I bought both REDHAT & S.u.s.e, SUSE is IMHO a lot better to work
with. Its worth it just for the excellent 'yast' setup tool alone.
>Oh, and, looking at http://www.redhat.com, there's a MASSIVE list of RPMs
>which I should apparently download because they contain lots of (mainly
>'security') 'fixes' to certain parts of the OS/apps. Should I bother?
>It's a big job!
>
That depends on what you intend doing with the box. Unless its broke,
avoid the temptation to fix it.
>Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
>book? (50 quid - yikes!)
Suse comes with some pretty comprehensive documentation.
greg
Greg Hennessy
<kbr...@neutralino.demon.com.uk> wrote:
>No, you need an expert for a little while. When you've had an expert for
>a while, you'll be one yourself, and repay your social contract.
Thats the way it works. I remember having to ask way back @ .99pl4
what the device names for scsi disks were :-).
greg
Richard Walker
Kira L. Brown <kbr...@neutralino.demon.com.uk> wrote:
> In message <1cdfe89e48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>
> Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
> [RedHat exploits]
> >
> > a) dual-boot with Windows 95
> > (hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
>
> LILO is your friend :-)
Aye! Although it wasn't today... I wanted to run Windows 95 (games, of
course!) but I'd set the boot prompt delay to ~5 seconds, so I missed the
LILO prompt, and had to wait for Linux to boot and shutdown before I could
run Windows! Needless to say, I'm going to change the boot delay time!
> > PPP scripts are fiddly, and it doesn't seem to like my internal modem,
> > which should be addressable by talking to COM3. It kind of works - but
> > VERY slowly. ATI1 etc. seems to take forever. :-(
>
> You should use kppp, which is easy to set up, if you have
I'll take a look. But I still can't figure out why the internal modem
doesn't work properly. It's probably because it's cheap rubbish
(Diamond/Supra 56i something-or-other) and/or something to do with IRQs...
I can load Minicom, and type in ATZ, but it takes about two minutes to
respond with 'OK'. It's as if the baud rate is //VERY// slow - but it's
set to 115200 with the Control Panel. Hmm...
> > KDE and Gnome (Win 95 lookalikes?) are on the CD. Should I install
> > those? Or is there something nicer?
>
> ..installed the KDE. Which is nice :-)
OK. I'll take a look!
> > c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
> > 'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
>
> XF86Setup at a command line when X is not running.
Odd. I'm sure I tried something like that, and it had no effect. Or maybe
that was XF86Config. I'll give your suggestion a go, though.
[Update - I'm editing the news spool directly!]
I've just tried XF86Setup from a root command prompt, and it insists with
saying 'Command not found'. I typed in xf86config and some kind of
noddy batch-file-configuration type thing appeared. But... it doesn't
seem to make any difference if I change things in there. :-/
[end of news spool edit]
> SuSE is nicer but rougher. I don't like Debian, but then, everyone knows
> how weird I am. SuSE is more server-oriented. harder to set up though.
'rougher'? Oh dear.
Mind you, I am using the Linux box as a server, so maybe I should take a
look. I can get a stack of CDs and a /big/ manual for about 30ukp. Maybe
the manual is good, and will tell me all?! :-)
> > Oh, and, looking at http://www.redhat.com, there's a MASSIVE list of RPMs
> > which I should apparently download because they contain lots of (mainly
> > 'security') 'fixes' to certain parts of the OS/apps. Should I bother?
> > It's a big job!
>
> Yes.
Grr! It'll take me all day. Unless... I can figure out how to make my zip
drive work with Linux and use zip discs between here and the leased line on
the other side of town. Hmm...
> > Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
> > book? (50 quid - yikes!)
>
> No, you need an expert for a little while. When you've had an expert for
> a while, you'll be one yourself, and repay your social contract.
Ah... how cosy. It all sounds rather 'acorny', if you know what I mean.
Anyway, thanks for the information. Here's to a nicer Linux setup!
P.S. New question: how do I get my Acorn NC to get it's time from the
Linux box?!?! It's obsessed with 1970, since there's no internal clock...
--
Richard.
"I am the eggman, they are the eggmen. I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob."
Dave Cooper
<pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, last week I decided to ditch Windows and install Linux on my PC.
> I
> bought the official Red Hat 5.1 distribution which is actually a doddle to
> install on a regular PC and one I don't believe should put off too many
> people. It's certainly a lot easier to install than ArmLinux on the RPC
> and
> it's pretty much an out of the box installation and shouldn't take more
> than
> about an hour to get Linux up and running with a nice Window manager.
>
>
PC Direct Mag (UK) has the full Redhat 5.1 disc on the front cover.
Regards, Dave C.
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ ______________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / StrongArm Risc Pc (586 PcCard) Clan & MAUG.
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | / ArgoRing.AcornRing.Interests-Comp.Sat.AV.SF
___________________________/ Classical music & Wine. d...@argonet.co.uk
Homepage (inc.free photos) http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dac/index.html
Michael Barnes
Steve Holroyd <s...@holsoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a23e879a48%dicko...@splurge.fluff.org>
> Dickon Hood <dicko...@fluff.org> wrote:
> >
> > What, *again*? Haven't we done this once?
>
> Well, at a guess, the numbers who have so far responded fall well below what
> was hoped........
>
Quite - so why aren't Acorn enthusiasts with Acorn-related web pages providing
mentions of and links to this page which I tracked down
(www.acorn.cybervillage.co.uk being reported as nonexistant, so I went via
www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn and followed links) and filled in just recently?
Apologies to those who HAVE provided links.
Tim Dawson
<URL:mailto:pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1cdfe89e48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>, Richard Walker
[snipped Linux techno-speak regarding installation]
> I've got Xwindows working at 1200x1024 but it still pans around, which can get
> annoying, but I haven't experimented with the script files to redefine the
> virtual screen size yet.
OK... so guys you have it up-n-running... what can you do with it...??
Speaking as one with little knowledge about Linux, if (heavens forbid) I have to
move on from RISCOS what apps are available..?
Is there:
- a good vector drawing package
- a good Photodesk look-alike
- DTP, spreadsheet, database
- comms software (I don't like the sound of writing my own PPP protocol)
Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
--
~~~~Dr Tim Dawson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Daws...@Cardiff.nospam.ac.uk or daws...@darwin.nospam.u-net.com
"Using StrongArm powered, user friendly RISCOS"
Tony van der Hoff
>
>Hmm. RedHat 5.1, eh?
>
>I've recently installed this very beast on a borrowed P233MMX. Actually,
>it was the cheap (no manual/support/box) version, but the content of the CD
>is the same - hey 2ukp or 30ukp... I know which! :-)
>
--
Tony van der Hoff | mailto:to...@mk-net.demon.co.uk
Buckinghamshire, England |
----------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Walker
Paul Vigay <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1cdfe89e48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>, Richard Walker
> <URL:mailto:runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
> > a) dual-boot with Windows 95
> > (hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
>
> Hehe! I decided to bin Windows completely and just have Linux.
But what about the games? You'll only be able to play Quake and Doom on
Linux. What about everything else?! Are you mad?! :-)
Oh. I forgot. There's always xbill! :-)
> > a) get it working on the Internet!!!
> >
> > PPP scripts are fiddly, and it doesn't seem to like my internal modem,
> > which should be addressable by talking to COM3. It kind of works - but
> > VERY slowly. ATI1 etc. seems to take forever. :-(
>
> I managed this on the Acorn ARMLinux, but I haven't tried it on the Intel
> version yet.
Actually, I think I'm OK with PPP scripts. It's mainly that my internal
modem doesn't work properly that's the problem... :-/
> > b) install a workable Window Manager (fvwm-95 stinks!)
> >
> > KDE and Gnome (Win 95 lookalikes?) are on the CD. Should I install
> > those? Or is there something nicer?
>
> I actually quite like the After Step one that comes on the CD.
You are, of course, joking?! It's terrible!
Where's RISC OS?!?!
The more I use Linux (at the CLI, or from a client on it's network) and X,
the more I think that Forbidden Techs' ideas re. Linux and the 'RISC OS
desktop' are, well, fabulous!
> > c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
> > 'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
>
> I've got Xwindows working at 1200x1024 but it still pans around, which
> can get annoying, but I haven't experimented with the script files to
> redefine the virtual screen size yet.
Hmm. Well, I've got a crappy 15" monitor, and an appalling ATI video card
which XFree86 doesn't even recognise (=> standard VGA). :-(
Richard Walker
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 23:11:09 +0000, Richard Walker
> <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
> > And, I'm also not sure if I like this 'RedHat' distribution at all. It
> > had a very strong 'Microsoft Windows' smell about it. Know what I
> > mean? Is SuSE/Debian any better? (a question for the experts!)
>
> I bought both REDHAT & S.u.s.e, SUSE is IMHO a lot better to work
> with. Its worth it just for the excellent 'yast' setup tool alone.
Hmm. I think I'll send a cheque off tomorrow...
> > Oh, and, looking at http://www.redhat.com, there's a MASSIVE list of
> > RPMs which I should apparently download because they contain lots of
> > (mainly 'security') 'fixes' to certain parts of the OS/apps. Should I
> > bother? It's a big job!
>
> That depends on what you intend doing with the box. Unless its broke,
> avoid the temptation to fix it.
That's what I was thinking, but the word 'security' rings a few bells,
especially since I'm using the box as an NFS server, and before too long,
I'd like to have it working on the 'net (and acting as a mail/news/web
server, and web proxy).
Interestingly, though, you and Kira appear to disagree on this issue! :-)
> >Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
> >book? (50 quid - yikes!)
>
> Suse comes with some pretty comprehensive documentation.
Right. That does it for me!
Thanks.
--
Richard.
"Obladi oblada life goes on bra."
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> In message <ant040935fc4q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>
> Paul Vigay <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <1cdfe89e48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>, Richard Walker
> > <URL:mailto:runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> >
> > > a) dual-boot with Windows 95
> > > (hey... GP2, Quake2 and F1RS don't work under Linux!)
> >
> > Hehe! I decided to bin Windows completely and just have Linux.
>
> But what about the games? You'll only be able to play Quake and Doom on
> Linux. What about everything else?! Are you mad?! :-)
Actually, I meant the PC at work (can't play games here!!!). My PC at home
still has Windoze installed on it (Bagh!), indeed so I can play Unreal and
Wargames (brilliant!).
> Oh. I forgot. There's always xbill! :-)
I was thinking of writing a RISC OS version of that..... :-)
> Actually, I think I'm OK with PPP scripts. It's mainly that my internal
> modem doesn't work properly that's the problem... :-/
Hmmm, I can't get the NE2000 compatible network card on the machine at work to
work with Linux yet. Most annoying. I think it's something to do with
interrupts etc, but when I probe the bus, it says no card is detected. Weird!
> > I actually quite like the After Step one that comes on the CD.
>
> You are, of course, joking?! It's terrible!
Well, I prefer it to the Win95 look-alike one. :-)
> Where's RISC OS?!?!
Indeed!
> The more I use Linux (at the CLI, or from a client on it's network) and X,
> the more I think that Forbidden Techs' ideas re. Linux and the 'RISC OS
> desktop' are, well, fabulous!
Again, agreed!
Greg Hennessy
<runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>That's what I was thinking, but the word 'security' rings a few bells,
>especially since I'm using the box as an NFS server, and before too long,
>I'd like to have it working on the 'net (and acting as a mail/news/web
>server, and web proxy).
>
You have to take your server users into account & assess the likely
threat. However if its internet connected you cant be too careful.
>Interestingly, though, you and Kira appear to disagree on this issue! :-)
>
Wouldn't be the first time ;-)
greg
Kira L. Brown
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:07:10 +0000, Richard Walker
> <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
> [internet connected Linux box]
>
> You have to take your server users into account & assess the likely
> threat. However if its internet connected you cant be too careful.
Quite. I always put the latest patches on my box- but then it is
constantly connected to the internet and as such presents a nice fat
target. (As a result I tend to be overcautious. Let's not say
paranoid, I have to go see my shrink again soon and he'd get upset...)
> >Interestingly, though, you and Kira appear to disagree on this issue! :-)
>
> Wouldn't be the first time ;-)
Yes, but we're both right this time :-)
kira.
--
This is a tagline.
Tony Houghton
Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> The more I use Linux (at the CLI, or from a client on it's network) and X,
> the more I think that Forbidden Techs' ideas re. Linux and the 'RISC OS
> desktop' are, well, fabulous!
The trouble is, it needs all applications to be rewritten to fit in with
it, and it's a mammoth task even for the much better established KDE and
Gnome teams. I take it we're talking about things like drag & drop,
programs loading onto some sort of iconbar and being able to multithread
multiple documents from there. Merely copying RISC OS's window furniture
and behaviour is pointless, fvwm can do about all of that and more.
> Hmm. Well, I've got a crappy 15" monitor, and an appalling ATI video card
> which XFree86 doesn't even recognise (=> standard VGA). :-(
Eh? Every ATI card I've heard of is supported by XFree86. What one have
you got?
Peter Smith
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 23:11:09 +0000, Richard Walker
> <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
>
> >c) Get the monitor working at 800x600 or 1024x768 and stop the bloomin'
> > 'pan around a virtual 1280x1024 in 640x480' effect!!!
> >
>
> Kill X & run XF86Setup. Its pretty obvious from there on.
>
This is what I did. When I run it, it managed to configure XF86 quite nicely,
but when I then ran XF, it barfed all over the hard drive :-O so badly that
FSCK couldn't fix it.
I then put the hard drive back in the drawer and carried on with Unreal ;-)
>
> >And, I'm also not sure if I like this 'RedHat' distribution at all. It had
> >a very strong 'Microsoft Windows' smell about it. Know what I mean? Is
> >SuSE/Debian any better? (a question for the experts!)
> >
>
> I bought both REDHAT & S.u.s.e, SUSE is IMHO a lot better to work
> with. Its worth it just for the excellent 'yast' setup tool alone.
>
I can certainly agree here! YAST is _very_ good.
>
> >Hmm. I need an expert. Or should I have bought the manual? Or a nice
> >book? (50 quid - yikes!)
>
> Suse comes with some pretty comprehensive documentation.
>
600 pages worth! I managed to install by only reading a couple of pages about
how to boot linux. It was a PDF file supplied with CD 1 of SuSE with PC Pro a
couple of months ago.
Peter
--
To reply by mail, change .com to .co in my email address
54 things to do in a lift....
2. Blow your nose and offer to show the contents of your kleenex to
other passengers.
Mike Atkinson
features (and improving them in places). It also provides a framework
for applications. The downside is that applications need to be
re-written in Java.
--
Mike Atkinson mi...@ladyshot.demon.co.uk
for PhoenixOS see http://www.ladyshot.demon.co.uk/PhoenixOS.html
Richard Walker
Tony van der Hoff <to...@mk-net.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1cdfe89e48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>, Richard
> Walker <runny...@mindless.com> writes
> >
> > Hmm. RedHat 5.1, eh?
> >
> > I've recently installed this very beast on a borrowed P233MMX.
> > Actually, it was the cheap (no manual/support/box) version, but the
> > content of the CD is the same - hey 2ukp or 30ukp... I know which! :-)
>
> Where did you get this couple o' quid CD, Richard?
http://www.polo.demon.co.uk (select 'Linux Emporium').
There's now the 'full' RedHat 5.2 release, but it's 50 quid. I'm going to
buy the SuSE 5.3 (I think) 'full' release, for 30 quid.
--
Richard.
"The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away."
Richard Walker
Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.com.uk> wrote:
> In message <1b4ff59f48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>
> Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
> > The more I use Linux (at the CLI, or from a client on it's network) and
> > X, the more I think that Forbidden Techs' ideas re. Linux and the 'RISC
> > OS desktop' are, well, fabulous!
>
> The trouble is, it needs all applications to be rewritten to fit in with
> it, and it's a mammoth task even for the much better established KDE and
> Gnome teams.
Hmm, yes. But Ross did point out that he had people looking at it, and the
job wasn't as bad as all that. Or so he said. I wouldn't know.
> I take it we're talking about things like drag & drop, programs loading
> onto some sort of iconbar and being able to multithread multiple
> documents from there.
Yep. And 'middle-for-menu'. And the Filer. Just the general swishness!
> Merely copying RISC OS's window furniture and behaviour is pointless,
> fvwm can do about all of that and more.
I don't think it's pointless, since I've seen nothing better. But it's
trivial, and not exactly what I want. And, as you point out, can already
be done.
> > Hmm. Well, I've got a crappy 15" monitor, and an appalling ATI video
> > card which XFree86 doesn't even recognise (=> standard VGA). :-(
>
> Eh? Every ATI card I've heard of is supported by XFree86. What one have
> you got?
I don't know! It's a kind of 'built-onto-the-motherboard' jobbie. :-(
The Apricot user guide says it's an 'ATI 3D Rage Pro'. As does Windows 95.
But there's some stuff on the hard disc which mentions 'mach64', which I
think is to do with the 2D part of the 'card'. There's 2MB of VRAM on the
motherboard (it's not a 'shared RAM' thing, as fas as I know) and a socket
to let me upgrade to 4MB.
It works with the 'mach64' accelerated server, but stays in 640x480, which
I can't change. And using 'standard VGA' seems exactly the same. :-(
But it's not /too/ important, because I'm hoping to get Linux 'moved over'
to the 486 sitting here, which will have a 'standard' ISA VGA card in. No
such problems. I hope. And anyway, I won't be running X on that! :-)
Interestingly, there's also a crappy sound card on the motherboard, which
I'll never ever get Linux to work with. Oh, and the list price of one of
these boards is over 400ukp. Maybe Acorn did a rather good job after all?
(with their motherboard prices)
--
Richard.
"Michelle, ma belle. These are words that go together well, my Michelle."
Richard Walker
Mike Atkinson <mi...@ladyshot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> What I am trying to do with PhoenixOS is copy the RiscOS desktop
> features (and improving them in places). It also provides a framework
> for applications.
Hmm... nice!
> The downside is that applications need to be re-written in Java.
And, unfortunately, that's a /massive/ downside. :-( Especially since Zap
is not written in Java!
Do your applications also need to be specially written to use the Phoenix
OS? Or would any application benefit?
--
Richard.
"And he never shows his feelings, But the fool on the hill."
Stuart Halliday
lite...@litening.dircon.co.uk says...
> Quite - so why aren't Acorn enthusiasts with Acorn-related web pages providing
> mentions of and links to this page which I tracked down
> (www.acorn.cybervillage.co.uk being reported as nonexistant,
err...that should be 'acorn.cybervillage.co.uk' thanks very much! ;-)
BTW I've now had over 1070 people reply to it.
I've had to bite my tongue and hold back from replying to some of the
really, really daff ideas some people have had for Phoebe.
One chap even posted to me that he didn't want to buy one as he's a PC
owner.
Still, most people want one and judging by the results it looks like
thousands of Acorn users would like one within the next 3-6 months.
A reasonable proportion also want a PC card fitted as standard. Has anyone
seen how much a PCI PC goes for?
Some want a motherboard supplied to dealers, but this really isn't on if you
ask me.
Most people have no idea (obviously) how much it would cost every dealer to
test each configuration of machine for Electromagnetic Emissions. I'm
talking thousands of UKPs!
Every time the dealer alters an internal card they're suppose to get it re-
tested!
Mind you, large and small PC dealers have been getting away with this
breaking of the law for years.
Go into a small PC dealer shop and ask if their box has been EM tested and
ask to see the certificate! :-)
--
Stuart Halliday
Acorn Cybervillage
http://acorn.cybervillage.co.uk/
Paul Vigay
You can get RedHat 5.2 for much less than that (about a tenner I think) from
LSL computing. I don't have their wab URL to hand but a search should turn it
up. They do have a UK office as well.
The Blue Ninja
> Some want a motherboard supplied to dealers, but this really isn't on if you
> ask me.
>
> Most people have no idea (obviously) how much it would cost every dealer to
> test each configuration of machine for Electromagnetic Emissions. I'm
> talking thousands of UKPs!
> Every time the dealer alters an internal card they're suppose to get it re-
> tested!
>
> Mind you, large and small PC dealers have been getting away with this
> breaking of the law for years.
machines
and parts have to be tested. So the components of a PC (motherboard,
drives
etc.) have to be tested not the result after putting them into a box.
Have you ever heard of anyone who let his hifi-tower get tested
after he put the components together?
BTW it would be impossible to get all individually configured computers
tested .
Each computer would cost very much more than now. (I don't know exact
numbers but
such a test could easily cost 3000 pounds or more!)
>
> Go into a small PC dealer shop and ask if their box has been EM tested and
> ask to see the certificate! :-)
This isn't the dealer's job but that of the manufacturer. If it would be
illegal
to put PCs together then somebody would have tried to do something
against that
practice.
Here in germany there was a discussion some time ago wether the PC
dealers are actually
producers/engineers/Handwerker (don't know english term) or just dealers
when
they put computer-components into one computer. If they were Handwerkers
they would
have needed a legitimation to do their job, or at least have someone
with it who is in
their shop. (Ein Meister muesste in dem Laden sein)
This would have been the end for most of the dealers here. It did not
come
through (yet?).
Lars
--
|>>>>>>>> The Blue Ninja/Dawn <<<<<<<<|
| (Sounddesigner working on Acorns & C64) |
|>>>> http://www.fh-worms.de/~hutzelm <<<<|
Stuart Halliday
> Stuart Halliday wrote:
> > Some want a motherboard supplied to dealers, but this really isn't on if you
> > ask me.
> >
> > Most people have no idea (obviously) how much it would cost every dealer to
> > test each configuration of machine for Electromagnetic Emissions. I'm
> > talking thousands of UKPs!
> > Every time the dealer alters an internal card they're suppose to get it re-
> > tested!
> >
> > Mind you, large and small PC dealers have been getting away with this
> > breaking of the law for years.
> I'm not sure how this is handled in germany. AFAIK only complete
> machines
> and parts have to be tested. So the components of a PC (motherboard,
> drives
> etc.) have to be tested not the result after putting them into a box.
An article I read about EM testing said that a lot of people didn't realise
that even though each component was tested separately that was no guarantee
that when they were placed in the same PC box that they wouldn't product
lots of nasty EM. You are *supposed* to test the complete box again.
> Have you ever heard of anyone who let his hifi-tower get tested
> after he put the components together?
But each box is not a real 'component' is it?
So they get away with it.
> BTW it would be impossible to get all individually configured computers
> tested .
No, just very hard....
> Each computer would cost very much more than now. (I don't know exact
> numbers but
> such a test could easily cost 3000 pounds or more!)
Exactly. The article (in PCdealer IIRC) said 10,000 pounds!
Which is why most companies don't bother and the Law isn't very strictly
enforced. (I think the fines are less than the price of getting an item
tested!)
>
> >
> > Go into a small PC dealer shop and ask if their box has been EM tested and
> > ask to see the certificate! :-)
> This isn't the dealer's job but that of the manufacturer. If it would be
> illegal
> to put PCs together then somebody would have tried to do something
> against that
> practice.
Unfortunally it is an big illegal practise AFAIK.
Maybe an Acorn hardware producer could inform us of the facts?
David Lomas
My experience is limited to talking to the EMC testing lab here at the
university (who are big on designing the equipment used). They said
testing costs around 1000 ukp per day, and the complexity of the product
determines how long it takes. For example, a simple temperature monitor
which plugs into a mains socket cost 800 ukp to test.
However, there has (according to my source) only ever been one case of a
company caught selling untested products. Although the potential for
such a crime is a jail sentence, all that happened was they were
instructed to either recall the products or get them tested
retrospectively. By this time, they had made enough money from sales to
pay for the testing. They weren't even fined. Apart from the fact that
the company was based in Wales, I have no further information about the
case.
Cheers,
Dave.
--
Department of Computer Science Tel: +44 (0) 1904 434759
University of York Fax: +44 (0) 1904 432767
York Email: David...@cs.york.ac.uk
YO10 5DD WWW: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/~davidl
Greg Hennessy
<pol...@ursaminr.demon.com.uk> wrote:
>
>This is what I did. When I run it, it managed to configure XF86 quite nicely,
>but when I then ran XF, it barfed all over the hard drive :-O so badly that
>FSCK couldn't fix it.
>
Now thats a neat trick I haven't seen before.
greg
Dave Edwards
Paul Vigay <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <d5a76ca048%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>, Richard
> Walker <URL:mailto:runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
[snip]
> > http://www.polo.demon.co.uk (select 'Linux Emporium').
> >
> > There's now the 'full' RedHat 5.2 release, but it's 50 quid. I'm
> > going to buy the SuSE 5.3 (I think) 'full' release, for 30 quid.
> You can get RedHat 5.2 for much less than that (about a tenner I think)
> from LSL computing. I don't have their wab URL to hand but a search
> should turn it up. They do have a UK office as well.
I recently tried out Red Hat 5.1 which came with a book, followed by
purchasing Suse 5.3
I would say that with a novice like me they are both about as
difficult/easy to install as each other. The advantage of the SuSE release
is that it comes with a 300 page book and also 5 CD ROMS full software
including Netscape and KDE which I'd heard so much about. So there was no
need to start downloading things from various sites.
Dave
--
- Roy 'Chubby' BROWN is at - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dge/rcb.html -
| |
----------- Official Site is at - http://www.chubbybrown.com -----------
Stuart Tyrrell
stu...@cybervillage.co.ouch.uk (Stuart Halliday) wrote:
> In article <3642F84F...@fh-worms.de>, hut...@fh-worms.de
> says...
[ Sorry to quote so much - but it's important to see the
misconceptions. Apologies for the length of the article too - I get
carried away sometimes ;-) ]
[sniip]
> > I'm not sure how this is handled in germany. AFAIK only complete
> > machines and parts have to be tested. So the components of a PC
> > (motherboard, drives etc.) have to be tested not the result after
> > putting them into a box.
>
> An article I read about EM testing said that a lot of people didn't
> realise that even though each component was tested separately that
> was no guarantee that when they were placed in the same PC box
> that they wouldn't product lots of nasty EM. You are *supposed* to
> test the complete box again.
[snip]
> Which is why most companies don't bother and the Law isn't very
> strictly enforced. (I think the fines are less than the price of
> getting an item tested!)
> > > Go into a small PC dealer shop and ask if their box has been EM
> > > tested and ask to see the certificate! :-)
> > This isn't the dealer's job but that of the manufacturer. If it
> > would be illegal to put PCs together then somebody would have
> > tried to do something against that practice.
>
> Unfortunally it is an big illegal practise AFAIK.
>
> Maybe an Acorn hardware producer could inform us of the facts?
I'll have a bash - but please realise that this is off the top of my
head. It does not necessarily reflect the "policy" of STD, and it is
an approximation of the situation as I understand it. Needless to say
I've spent a *lot* of time investigating EMC over the last few years!
Most electronic devices which are "taken into service" in the EU must
be marked with the CE mark. This implies that they comply with all the
relevant directives (low voltage, safety etc). We tend to associate
the CE mark with compliance with Directive 89/336/EEC (as amended)
which is to do with electromagnetic emissions and susceptability (as
this tends to apply to more devices then the other directives).
To cut a very long story short - the directive says that electronic
devices should not interfere unduly with other devices, and that
failures due to "reasonable" interference should be "sensible" (for
example your baby buggy shouldn't run off into the nearest ditch if
somebody uses a mobile phone nearby). There are limits to this - a
little emission is allowed (and in some situations encouraged -
otherwise TV detector vans wouldn't work!), and nobody could expect
you to produce radios which weren't affected when they were held near
the perimeter fence of a certain radar base (although it's sensible to
design devices so that they fail safe: engine management systems
running in cars along the same road might fail with the engine off,
which is inconvenient, but not as inconvenient as failing with
throttle open!).
So - there are specified limits to which your circuit must perform,
and these limits are published in the directive/standard. Your device
must comply with these limits in order for it to be legal to attach a
CE mark, and it must have a CE mark in order for it to be sold.
An easy way of determining whether a device meets the limits is to
test it. This method will give you most confidence that your device
will pass the regulations. As others have pointed out, test houses
charge in the region of UKP1,000 a day - a decent test of unfamiliar
equipment might cost anything from 5K to 10K.
The second way is through a technical construction file - where you
detail the design, and submit it to a so called "competent body", who
decides whether it will pass or fail the regs, and takes a bunch of
cash for the privilege.
The "nice" thing about either of these ways is that somebody else is
taking the responsibility for you - although you'll be signing
contracts which say that they are not legally responsible, their
reputations rely on the fact that they do not pass devices which do
not comply.
The other method is called "self certification". I won't refer to it
as the third method, because it's often seen as the "cheat's" way out,
whereas it *should* be the most sensible option.
First some background:
By attaching a CE mark you are declaring that a device complies with
the declaration. _there_is_no_requirement_ to perform full testing -
but your device _must_comply_ - there's a subtle difference here:
If you sell something without the mark, you are committing an
offence.
If you attach the mark to a device which does not comply, you are
committing an offence.
Given that (IIRC - I can check), the maximum penalties for either of
the above are level 5 (UKP5000 or 6 months) for each individual item
which fails either of the above, you should be pretty confident that a
device will pass before selling it!
Here's where "self certification" comes in. You must produce a
declaration of conformance which states which regulations the device
complies with - and given the penalties you must have confidence that
the device does comply. Obviously the simplest way is to go for full
test or TCF, but it can be prohibitively expensive.
What you *should* do with self certification is to pick the
"applicable" bits of the testing and construction file methods. If for
example, you're building a battery operated microphone mixer box with
a couple of resistors and a transistor inside, what's the use of going
through full suceptability testing - zap it with a piezo lighter if
you want to determine the failure mode, but "it stops amplifying" is
quite an acceptable failure. Obviously virtually any engineer would be
able to determine whether it passes or fails from the circuit diagram
- there's absolutely no need to pay a body to check it for you.
I suppose an analogy might be marking "non-toxic" on crayons. You can
submit them for full testing (pay 20 kids to eat them - yummy!), or
you can send of the details to a toxicologist (well, I've used x,y and
z - any problems?). If, however, you know that you've made your
crayons out of carnuba wax and food colouring, you can be pretty
confident that you can legally claim that they're non-toxic without
getting into trouble - insuring 20 children unnecessarily might
increase the price of your crayons from 10p each to UKP10! (imagine
making 20 candles for a summer fete under similar circumstances!)
Similarly the analogue holds for labelling - you must sell crayons
which are labelled as non-toxic, and any crayons you sell must not be
toxic. If, however, you sell crayons and they are later found to be
toxic...... ;-)
The problem from a hardware point of view is that self-certification
is abused - rather than being sensible with design, and carrying out
pre-compliance checks etc, some people just "slap a label on" and hope
for the best. It's about time that the enforcement fines etc gave some
unscrupulous people cause to ensure that their "confidence" in their
products is a little higher!
This abuse of self-certification is certainly widespread amongst PC
builders, and to some extent the far-eastern device manufacturers -
but just to cover a couple of points that Stuart mentioned:
Bolting together CE compliant parts is certainly no guarantee that the
system as a whole is compliant - the parts have not been tested
together. For example, a lot of expansion cards will be completely
compliant in an ARM710 RiscPC, but stick a StrongARM in the machine
and it fails as a whole.
This also highlights two points which make a mockery of CE, namely:
It is not legal to CE mark components. How can one put together a PC
from CE marked components - at some point the law is broken anyway?
When *testing*, you may specify the system which is used for the
test. For example, if testing an Acorn expansion card (debate
amongst yourselves whether it should be CE marked or not), you could
specify a test in an A5000. How relevant is that test to a machine
with a StrongARM? In fact, there's a school of thought which goes
along the lines of "test, bodge, test" - ie test something, modify
it until it tests OK. I'm sure that it's obvious, especially in the
computer world, as to why this makes full testing exactly the
*worst* method to show compliance.
It's true that the law isn't strictly enforced, and what's more it
tends to be run on a complaints based system (depending on which
trading standards area you live in). There is certainly a number of
traders trying to "shop" their competitors - and usually falling foul
as a result. Rumour has it that larger companies have paid for full
tests of their competitor's products before now....
Unfortunately the biggest problem with this area is ignorance. Many
people believe that you can put together a PC from CE marked parts and
claim "due diligence" if it fails. I've had developers say to me "we
don't CE mark our parts either and we're happy to sell yours" (for the
record, all my devices are CE marked and will not fail CE testing). I
know of dealers selling non-CE marked products and claiming that they
are old (pre-1996) stock (no excuse since Jan 97, unfortunately).
Unfortunately there are "sensible" developers who are taking this
issue very seriously, and we're all up against some PC developers who
don't give it a second thought. Unfortunately these people are showing
that the regulations are being flouted, and if it's not stopped, it
will result in a requirement for full testing under all circumstances
(anybody read "Which?"). I would expect that this would put *every*
Acorn hardware developer out of business.
Stuart.
--
Stuart Tyrrell Developments Stu...@stdevel.demon.co.uk
PO Box 183, OLDHAM. OL2 8FB http://www.stdevel.demon.co.uk
Orange: 0976 255 256 (9am-9pm) dFax: 0870 164 1604 (National rate)
**NEW** Touchpad from UKP29.95 ** PS2Mouse+ now available UKP39.95
Peter Smith
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
Bows to the left. Bows to the right. Bows straight forward. Exit stage left
;-)
It was sort of a cascade error. I ran XF, and it caused an error with
"Aiieeeeeee" in it, which caused another, and another, and another. The
keyboard stiffed, so a reset was the only other option. TBH, I think it was
_this_ that stuffed the HDD.
It was still pretty easy to set up, and I now know how to fix the problem.
Peter
--
To reply by mail, change .com to .co in my email address
54 things to do in a lift....
45. Announce in a demonic voice: "I must find a more suitable host body."
Robert Seago
Tim Dawson <URL:mailto:daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant040935fc4q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>, Paul Vigay
> > In article <1cdfe89e48%runny...@breckonhill.demon.co.uk>, Richard Walker
> > annoying, but I haven't experimented with the script files to redefine the
> > virtual screen size yet.
>
very little to the debate about the future of RiscOS, I feel like
putting my two pennyworth in.
I feel that Phoebe would only be a very temporary and short lived
stop gap. Any future developer would be in the same position as
Acorn. The OS though it carries a good GUI is looking old, patched,
and it has to be difficult to maintain now, with the original coders
not all being around now. There are fundamental weaknesses in it,
that would require radical changes.
> Speaking as one with little knowledge about Linux,
I have considered installing Arm Linux, just to test out what is
available for it. I have no direct knowledge of it. I have however
used Solaris a unix clone, and am impressed with its stability, and
the fact that it is in much wider use than my favourite RiscOS.
However, I sadly have to say that I saw no applications that I was
particularly impressed with, and the user interface, an OpenWindows
implementation was not as nice as I am used to!
>if (heavens forbid) I have to
> move on from RISCOS what apps are available..?
> Is there:
> - a good vector drawing package
> - a good Photodesk look-alike
> - DTP, spreadsheet, database
> - comms software (I don't like the sound of writing my own PPP protocol)
>
Yes these questions are fundamental, and I have not seen them
answered. I know that I could if I had time browse the web to find
out about applications for these things. Can any of the Unix/Linux
users on the group tell us what apps to do the above tasks are like.
> Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
Unix supports different GUI's and these can be developed and adapted,
and many are already around. The fact that none of these are
universally loved, or even particularly enthusiastically praised by
many people suggests that they leave something to be desired. I think
I am trying to avoid a flaming here :-)
I do approve of an approach for RiscOS users to move on to a unix
based RiscOS look alike, if this is possible. Unix is well founded,
it is free, and the source is open. It can be run on almost all
platforms, and is likely to be workable on future machines. No more
will 'enthusiasts' spend months pulling apart a new Acorn machine's
specs as they did with Phoebe, because these vocal people will
develop there own solutions which will be adopted according to
survival of the fittest, and the system will evolve accordingly.
There would be nothing better than to be able to buy new hardware,
and be able to compile an operating system with free source code,
with all of the essential core features of a RiscOS flavour unix;
(should I be saying Linux here) , and perhaps other non core features.
However the problem seems to be that to do this, to get the really
good risc os features into unix has to be really difficult. I say
this because surely one of the many RiscOS enthusists who have a
strong respect for Unix would have done it already. Come on you
people who advocate this approach, can it really be done?
Secondly, what about our existing software. Would implementation of
BBCBasic and all the SWI's that my 40 or so PD programs do be
possible. Would it be feasible, in economic terms to port the
wonderful TW Pro to it, or Vantage that sounds brilliant. If they
could they would be accessible to a lot of Linux users, and would
make their developers a lot of money I suspect. I could go on about
so many apps I have come to love.
In principle I suppose existing Linux Apps would be easily portable
to our look alike RiscOS solution.
So the big questions I repeat are:
Is it feasible to implement Drag and Drop, decent Anti Aliased
fonts, etc to linux?
Would it be easy enough to compile our favourite applications to
such a system?
I have not put out this many ideas before because I don't speak with
great knowledge, so bear in mind thes views are only expressed to
invite discussion.
Regards from : Using a : Software for RiscOS:Conservation Pages
Robert Seago : StrongArm RiscPC : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago/
--
Tony Houghton
Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> In message <48A05ED9BB%to...@tcp.com.uk>
> Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.com.uk> wrote:
>
> > Merely copying RISC OS's window furniture and behaviour is pointless,
> > fvwm can do about all of that and more.
>
> I don't think it's pointless, since I've seen nothing better. But it's
> trivial, and not exactly what I want. And, as you point out, can already
> be done.
What I meant was pointless was to write a new window manager or variant
of fvwm which has all the window furniture in the same place [1] doing
the same things with the same mouse buttons. fvwm can be configured to
have all the same functionality, just that some of it's accessed in
slightly different ways. RISC OS's layout isn't necessarily the best, it
just depends on what you're used to. Also, when coming back to RISC OS
from fvwm, I really miss being able to bring a window to the front by
clicking anywhere around its border, so that's one area where RISC OS is
weak and just about everything else is better. There are patches to add
functional borders to RISC OS windows, but the one I've seen made them
oversized and wasted too much space, and any solution is likely to be a
little inefficient.
[1] AFAIK you can't do anything about scrollbars at this level anyway,
they're controlled by X libraries linked into each application.
--
TH -*- <http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~tonyh/>
Tony Houghton
Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> In message <364205D7...@ladyshot.demon.co.uk>
> Mike Atkinson <mi...@ladyshot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The downside is that applications need to be re-written in Java.
>
> And, unfortunately, that's a /massive/ downside. :-( Especially since Zap
> is not written in Java!
That's not a very big downside for Zap. A complete rewrite, including
allowing extensions to be written in Java, is about the best thing that
could happen to it.
Henry Helliwell
> Speaking as one with little knowledge about Linux, if (heavens forbid) I have to
> move on from RISCOS what apps are available..?
> Is there:
> - a good vector drawing package
> - a good Photodesk look-alike
There is the GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Pagage) which is probably the
best thing avaliable on any platform.
> - DTP, spreadsheet, database
> - comms software (I don't like the sound of writing my own PPP protocol)
There are scripts avaliable for the PPP daemon for Demon Internet, but
I don't know about other places. I expect there will be though.
> Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
I don't think so. The comms stuff isn't, because you can run it
even without X (unless you want a browser that does images and stuff).
--
Henry Helliwell
he...@stohelit.demon.co.uk
Martin Dixon
> <URL:mailto:pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Speaking as one with little knowledge about Linux, if (heavens forbid) I have to
> move on from RISCOS what apps are available..?
> Is there:
> - a good vector drawing package
> - a good Photodesk look-alike
> - comms software (I don't like the sound of writing my own PPP protocol)
>
>
Microsoft, in a leaked internal memo (the Halloween Document) that I was
given a copy of, see Linux mainly as a threat in "server space" as they put
it, tather than on the desktop. This is mainly due to the lack of the
applications that most PC (and Acorn) users are used to.
I understand that KDE has an office suite, but I don't know how it compares
with eg MS office.
RISCOS, it seems to me, has the opposite problem. That is it is an out and
out desktop OS with lots of good quality applications. Therefore, if Linux
and RISCOS could get together, both products would be strengthened.
The fundamental problem in doing this is, I suspect, commercial rather than
technical, although one shouldn't belittle the technical problems. Linux is
open source, which means that it is available to all, free of charge,
complete with the source code. RISCOS iteslf and many of the applocations we
all love are proprietary products, The owners of the intellectual property
would have to be persuaded to make their software available in this way. By
doing so, of course, their revenue from software sales would disappear.
Companies in the Open Source world rely on making their money from seling
books and support for the users of their software.
Of course, if RISCOS applications could be ported to Linux, either by porting
then individually, or by porting the RISCOS GUI and API, then those
applications would have a much larger potential distribution than if they
were sold for RISCOS alone.
I might add, for interest, that Microsoft does see Open Source as a threat.
Basically, Linux and other open source products (GNU, Apache etc.) are too
well established to attack by speading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt),
cannot be bought out (since no company owns it, it is mostly produced by
'hackers"), and can't be undercut on price, since it is given away free. So
they are planning to resort to what the call "decommoditisation of
standards", which I understand to mean attacking open source standards by
bringing out their own more complex and incompatible versions and flooding
the market with products based on them (ie the same trick they are using to
attack Sun and Java). By this means they hope that the MS versions will
become established rather than the open Source ones.
It goes without saying that that quality of most established open source
software is at least as high as MS commercial products and often higher. MS
themselves admit this internally.
Unfortunately, big business IME always prefers to deal with big business. It
used to be said, "nobody gets fired for buying from IBM." These days the
same goes for MS. After all, with open source software, who do you sue if it
all goes wrong?
--
Martin Dixon, Leicester, England. email martin...@diamond.co.uk
Created on: Acorn 420/1, 33MHz ARM3, RISCOS 3.1 Running ANT Internet Suite.
Wintel free - Millenium compliant.
--
I saw Satan laughing with delight, the day the music died.
John Cartmell
Martin Dixon <martin...@diamond.co.uk> wrote:
> Unfortunately, big business IME always prefers to deal with big
> business. It used to be said, "nobody gets fired for buying from IBM."
> These days the same goes for MS. After all, with open source software,
> who do you sue if it all goes wrong?
I missed something here. Which business was it that intended to sue
Microsoft when (not if) 'it all goes wrong'?
--
John Cartmell - Manchester UK
using a RiscPC & StrongARM - still the best way to understand technology
Richard Walker
Tim Dawson <daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
> OK... so guys you have it up-n-running... what can you do with it...??
I've absolutely no idea why I'm replying to this, since I'm still a
complete and utter Linux beginner, and spend 99% of my time with it /not/
running the X Window system.
> Speaking as one with little knowledge about Linux, if (heavens forbid) I
> have to move on from RISCOS what apps are available..?
Do you really think you'll /have/ to 'move on' before the state of affairs
with Linux as a desktop OS changes?
> Is there:
> - a good vector drawing package
> - a good Photodesk look-alike
I don't know about graphics. There's a Paint-type application included in
my RedHat 5.1 distribution, but it's not exactly Photodesk.
Under Linux, I'm never going to use either of these applications, so I have
not really looked. There will be something available, I'm sure, but I
don't know what.
> - DTP, spreadsheet, database
There's a Microsoft-Office lookalike (it's even file-format compatible!)
office suite called StarOffice. It's free.
> - comms software (I don't like the sound of writing my own PPP protocol)
There's enough supplied with RedHat to get a modem/Ethernet user onto the
Internet. It's more sophisticated than Acorn's InetSetup/Connect etc.
There's also a copy of Netscape Comminucator included, as well as the
'command line' email/news/web programs (pine, elm, tin, lynx etc.).
You do not have to write your own PPP protocol!
I strongly suspect that the installation/configuration iis going to get
even easier (and even easier...) as time goes on. In a sense, the longer
you leave it, the better!
And remember, what we heard about Forbidden Technologies' ideas (on this
newsgroup) was basically a /very/ user friendly front-end to Linux and it's
applications. I'd really like to see this 'product' come to light.
> Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
Pass.
--
Richard.
"Well, my heart went "boom", when I crossed that room."
Jonathan Marten
> OK... so guys you have it up-n-running... what can you do with it...??
>
> move on from RISCOS what apps are available..?
> - a good vector drawing package
gyve (currently very beta, but shows promise)
> - a good Photodesk look-alike
gimp - absolutely wonderful, does everything and more besides... see
http://www.gimp.org/
xv for simpler graphics tasks - probably comes as standard
> - DTP, spreadsheet, database
StarOffice looks just like M$Office and has WP, spreadsheet, database,
graphics, comms and HTML editor... heavy on resources but works well,
see http://www.stardivision.com/
> - comms software (I don't like the sound of writing my own PPP protocol)
all as standard, KDE has a PPP dialler GUI
> Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
No. But some apps need additional libraries installed as well: for
example, Gimp needs GTK and KDE requires QT. This does not affect
compatibility with any other applications, and they can still all work
together on the same desktop.
Go on, take the plunge...
--
Jonathan Marten work: jonatha...@uk.sun.com
http://www.keelhaul.demon.co.uk play: j...@keelhaul.demon.co.uk
T.K. Kelly
wrote:
(cut refs to window manager)
> Also, when coming back to RISC OS
> from fvwm, I really miss being able to bring a window to the front by
> clicking anywhere around its border, so that's one area where RISC OS is
> weak and just about everything else is better. There are patches to add
> functional borders to RISC OS windows, but the one I've seen made them
> oversized and wasted too much space, and any solution is likely to be a
> little inefficient.
You've obviously never used MoveWindo, then. It allows you to bring any
window to the front by clicking *anywhere* on the window with Shift+Ctrl
held down.
Invaluable!
Terry.
--
___ __ _ _ __________________________________
| |_ |_| |_| \ / / ACORN RISC PC700 200MHz SA 42Mb/5.5Gb
| |__ | \ | \ | / ...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
/ t...@argonet.co.uk zfc Dy
Why does monosyllabic have five syllables?
Ernst Dinkla
<URL:mailto:root@[127.0.01> wrote:
> In article <ant04212...@darwin.u-net.com>, Tim Dawson
> <URL:mailto:daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Is there:
> > - a good vector drawing package
> > - a good Photodesk look-alike
>
> There is the GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Pagage) which is probably the
> best thing avaliable on any platform.
>
Comp.os.linux.announce mentioned Killustrator a vector drawing application.
It is meant to be used with KDE.
> > Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
>
> I don't think so. The comms stuff isn't, because you can run it
> even without X (unless you want a browser that does images and stuff)
So there seems to be some dependency on GUIs.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla Serigrafie,Zeefdruk edi...@inter.nl.net
All views expressed are my own and may have no relation whatsoever
to the views of Acorn, Intel, Tulip, IBM, ARM, Sun, Compaq, Micro-
Simon John
T.K. Kelly <t...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <48A1442237%to...@tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.co.uk>
> wrote:
> (cut refs to window manager)
> > Also, when coming back to RISC OS
> > from fvwm, I really miss being able to bring a window to the front by
> > clicking anywhere around its border, so that's one area where RISC OS is
> > weak and just about everything else is better. There are patches to add
> > functional borders to RISC OS windows, but the one I've seen made them
> > oversized and wasted too much space, and any solution is likely to be a
> > little inefficient.
> You've obviously never used MoveWindo, then. It allows you to bring any
> window to the front by clicking *anywhere* on the window with Shift+Ctrl
> held down.
There used to be a proggie that put a little border around any window that
could resize it etc; plus there was that one that adds an extra button next
to the close icon - don't remember what it did, iconised the window I think.
--
Simon E. John
Email: sim...@argonet.co.uk
WWW: http://surf.to/simonsite
ICQ: 15267939
I'm Millennium smug ;o)
Tony Houghton
Richard Walker <runny...@mindless.com> wrote:
> In message <ant04212...@darwin.u-net.com>
> Tim Dawson <daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Is there:
> > - a good vector drawing package
> > - a good Photodesk look-alike
>
> I don't know about graphics. There's a Paint-type application included in
> my RedHat 5.1 distribution, but it's not exactly Photodesk.
There's GIMP, which is supposed to be an excellent alternative to
Photoshop. For vector graphics there's tgif which looks a little like
Draw (pre 3D icons), and I think there might also be something a bit
friendlier for KDE, but I don't use KDE. I haven't heard of anything to
rival Xara, CorelDraw, or even Artworks.
Tony Houghton
T.K. Kelly <t...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <48A1442237%to...@tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> (cut refs to window manager)
>
> > Also, when coming back to RISC OS
> > from fvwm, I really miss being able to bring a window to the front by
> > clicking anywhere around its border, so that's one area where RISC OS is
> > weak and just about everything else is better. There are patches to add
> > functional borders to RISC OS windows, but the one I've seen made them
> > oversized and wasted too much space, and any solution is likely to be a
> > little inefficient.
>
> You've obviously never used MoveWindo, then. It allows you to bring any
> window to the front by clicking *anywhere* on the window with Shift+Ctrl
> held down.
What if you want to move or resize the window from any point around its
border? What if you want to Ctrl-Shift-click in a window without
bringing it to the front? Can it be configured to use, say, Alt instead?
Another nicety in fvwm which someone ought to patch into RISC OS is the
way it snaps windows to the edge of the screen, like the snap feature in
Impression (or Draw for those who don't know what I mean in Impression,
but it has more in common with Impression than Draw).
Peter Smith
Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <na.ee88d948...@argonet.co.uk>
> T.K. Kelly <t...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <48A1442237%to...@tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > (cut refs to window manager)
> >
> > > Also, when coming back to RISC OS
> > > from fvwm, I really miss being able to bring a window to the front by
> > > clicking anywhere around its border, so that's one area where RISC OS
> > > is weak and just about everything else is better. There are patches to
> > > add functional borders to RISC OS windows, but the one I've seen made
> > > them oversized and wasted too much space, and any solution is likely to
> > > be a little inefficient.
> >
> > You've obviously never used MoveWindo, then. It allows you to bring any
> > window to the front by clicking *anywhere* on the window with Shift+Ctrl
> > held down.
>
> What if you want to move or resize the window from any point around its
> border? What if you want to Ctrl-Shift-click in a window without
> bringing it to the front? Can it be configured to use, say, Alt instead?
>
I've got one called WinMove (IIRC), that you left alt click on a window and
it brings it to the front.
> Another nicety in fvwm which someone ought to patch into RISC OS is the
> way it snaps windows to the edge of the screen, like the snap feature in
> Impression (or Draw for those who don't know what I mean in Impression,
> but it has more in common with Impression than Draw).
ISTR there was something out there that did this, but I don't remember what
it's called.
Peter
--
To reply by mail, change .com to .co in my email address
54 things to do in a lift....
12. Lean over to another passenger and whisper: "Noogie patrol coming!"
Dave Edwards
Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> Another nicety in fvwm which someone ought to patch into RISC OS is the
> way it snaps windows to the edge of the screen, like the snap feature in
> Impression (or Draw for those who don't know what I mean in Impression,
> but it has more in common with Impression than Draw).
There's a relocatable module called Grooves that will do this.
Martin Dixon
<URL:mailto:jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant071739868hB%w...@martin.dixon.diamond.co.uk>,
> Martin Dixon <martin...@diamond.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, big business IME always prefers to deal with big
> > business. It used to be said, "nobody gets fired for buying from IBM."
> > These days the same goes for MS. After all, with open source software,
> > who do you sue if it all goes wrong?
>
> I missed something here. Which business was it that intended to sue
> Microsoft when (not if) 'it all goes wrong'?
>
Theoretically it is possible to sue MS, but with their lawyers you'd probably
be wasting your money. But at least they are a substantial company that
should be accountable. That counts for a lot with corporate buyers.
--
Martin Dixon, Leicester, England. email martin...@diamond.co.uk
Created on: Acorn 420/1, 33MHz ARM3, RISCOS 3.1 Running ANT Internet Suite.
Wintel free - Millenium compliant.
--
This is an example taglines file for ZapEmail. You should replace this with a
suitably-formatted file of your own.
Andy Pickering
Tony Houghton <to...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> Also, when coming back to RISC OS from fvwm, I really miss being able to
> bring a window to the front by clicking anywhere around its border, so
> that's one area where RISC OS is weak and just about everything else is
> better.
Try using the dragwindow module. This is an excellent solution to this
limitation of the RiscOS GUI: by holding down alt you can bring any window
to the front of the desktop by clicking on any visible area of the window
(as well as window resizing/scrolling without using the control bars!).
Incidentally, I think this "weakness" of Acorn's GUI was probably a
deliberate attempt to keep window operations simple, particularly for
young children for whom trying to manipulate a window using the border
would have been a fiddly and frustrating experience.
Also, the limited graphics resolution of early RiscOS machines would
probably also have made border manipulation more tricky, but I agree that
there is no reason why the more modern machines should not be brought up
to date.
IMHO, incorporating the dragwindow functionality into RiscOS would not be
a bad solution.
Cheers,
Andy Pickering
--
Andy Pickering
Acorn RiscPC
John Cartmell
Martin Dixon <martin...@diamond.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <48a1745...@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> <URL:mailto:jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ant071739868hB%w...@martin.dixon.diamond.co.uk>, Martin Dixon
> > <martin...@diamond.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Unfortunately, big business IME always prefers to deal with big
> > > business. It used to be said, "nobody gets fired for buying from
> > > IBM." These days the same goes for MS. After all, with open source
> > > software, who do you sue if it all goes wrong?
> > I missed something here. Which business was it that intended to sue
> > Microsoft when (not if) 'it all goes wrong'?
> Theoretically it is possible to sue MS, but with their lawyers you'd
> probably be wasting your money. But at least they are a substantial
> company that should be accountable. That counts for a lot with
> corporate buyers.
Is it only me that notices the contradiction implicit in the first 2
sentences and the stupidity of the last? The statement is true - it's just
the stupidity of corporate buyers that I'm referring to... :-(
John Lindley
> In article <ant0714350b0d*q...@stohelit.demon.co.uk>, Henry Helliwell
> <URL:mailto:root@[127.0.01> wrote:
> > In article <ant04212...@darwin.u-net.com>, Tim Dawson
> > <URL:mailto:daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
>
> > > Is there:
> > > - a good vector drawing package
> > > - a good Photodesk look-alike
> >
> > There is the GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Pagage) which is probably the
> > best thing avaliable on any platform.
> >
>
> Comp.os.linux.announce mentioned Killustrator a vector drawing application.
> It is meant to be used with KDE.
>
GNU are developing an illustrator type package to go with the GIMP, called
GYVE (GNU Yellow Vector Editor). Check out www.gimp.org ,and
bandits.aist-nara.ac.jp/~masata-y/gyve/gyve.html
> > > Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
> >
> > I don't think so. The comms stuff isn't, because you can run it
> > even without X (unless you want a browser that does images and stuff)
>
> So there seems to be some dependency on GUIs.
>
There is some dependency on the GUI. X-Windows programs are written using
things called widgets, which basically define what a window has, the gui
then decides what it looks like. I'm not sure how far this stretches but
I'll probably find out by the time I finish my X-Windows project
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| | _ |_ ._ | o._ _|| _ |
| \_|(_)| || | |_|| |(_||(/_\/ |
| / |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
| WWW | E-Mail |
| www.BITS.bris.ac.uk/~john | jo...@BITS.bris.ac.uk |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
| ...Doh said Pooh, suffering from an identity crisis |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Dave Roberts
John Lindley <URL:mailto:jo...@BITS.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> GNU are developing an illustrator type package to go with the GIMP,
> called GYVE (GNU Yellow Vector Editor).
At least we know where not to turn to for name suggestions for any new
machine ;).
--
Dave Roberts
Da...@pharpech.demon.co.uk
mrp...@leeds.ac.uk
Timothy Baldwin
Ernst Dinkla <edi...@inter.nl.net> wrote:
> > > Are these dependant in anyway on the GUI installed ???
> >
> > I don't think so. The comms stuff isn't, because you can run it
> > even without X (unless you want a browser that does images and stuff)
>
> So there seems to be some dependency on GUIs.
Applications written for a specific desktop environment (eg KDE and GNOME),
will run under any desktop environment provided that shared files that
they require are installed.
Jim Nagel
> ... Photoshop. For vector graphics there's tgif which looks a little like
> Draw (pre 3D icons), and I think there might also be something a bit
> friendlier for KDE, but I don't use KDE. I haven't heard of anything to
> rival Xara, CorelDraw, or even Artworks.
Corel sells a machine (Netwinder?) which runs Linux on StrongArm.
what apps come with it?
--
--jim nagel > Mime welcome, but please warn before attaching >400K
Computer Shopper magazine UK, freelance
on a StrongArm Acorn Risc Machine. British technology. no tax to Gate$.
immune from MMillenniu worries: online till 2248 AD.
(mnemonic)
Stuart Bell
> Corel sells a machine (Netwinder?) which runs Linux on StrongArm.
> what apps come with it?
It's on their web site. ISTR it's just a web server, so that's the s/w
that comes with it.
--
Stuart Bell
running a PowerBook 100, Color Classic and PowerMac 6500/275.
PB-100 FAQ at www.argonet.co.uk/users/sabell/pb100.html
Tim Dawson
<URL:mailto:Da...@pharpech.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <Pine.BSF.4.05.981109...@BITS.bris.ac.uk>,
> John Lindley <URL:mailto:jo...@BITS.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > GNU are developing an illustrator type package to go with the GIMP,
> > called GYVE (GNU Yellow Vector Editor).
>
> At least we know where not to turn to for name suggestions for any new
> machine ;).
Strikes me that Linux developers could do with a bit more imagination on the
naming front... GIMP and GYVE are hardly catchy titles for "killer" apps nor
do they readily impart to "joe pub" the nature of the beast... there is at
least something to be said for the overused "photo-" and "-draw" appendages
to popular packages...
--
~~~~Dr Tim Dawson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Daws...@Cardiff.nospam.ac.uk or daws...@darwin.nospam.u-net.com
"Using StrongArm powered, user friendly RISCOS"