looking for recovery stories
anon
stories: and, the ways in which people helped alleviate their
symptoms. I look forward to hearing from you all.
Best of health to everyone.
NiceShyMiamiGuy
any time you want but your "pain" will never leave -- ahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
******************************
>Subject: looking for recovery stories
>From: indigenou...@hotmail.com (anon)
>Date: 1/8/02 5:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <ff3b0ec9.02010...@posting.google.com>
Frank N. Stein
Its a good thing you are focused on recovery and not drowning in your
own misery like alot of sufferers. I would assume that most people
who are recovered don't visit this newsgroup anymore. I personally
know 2 people who HAD long bouts of prostatitis and have now been
symptom free for over 10 years - and they don't even think about
it anymore. A recent poster named "Robbrou" has provided us with
his status on a monthly basis - he is symptom free for over 3 months
now.
A positive state of mind will help you greatly in alleviating your
symptoms. Symptoms seem to diminish over time, too. Other things
people have tried - antibiotics, anti-inflammatories,
anti-depressants, Quercetin w/bromelain, massages, sitz baths, rooibos
tea, broccoli treatment, etc. And the best advice is - don't listen
to anything "NSMG" tells you.
Good Luck.
Rhemium
I/m 75% to 85% better, and CP does not rule my life anymore.
Is this what you want to hear?
How did I do it? I was patient, I watched my diet, stopped drinking
EVERYTHING but water, took quercetin and a lot of hot baths.
And drainages helped me, as well.
Go to www.chronicprostatitis.com for more stories and a good protocol.
Thad Noles
news:ff3b0ec9.02010...@posting.google.com...
Anon,
I contracted non-bacterial prostatitis about a year ago from taking a
thermogenic (Xenadrine), most likely the result of a bad allergic reaction
of some sort. Bacteria had NOTHING to do with it, since I've never had any
kind of urinary tract infection, never had unprotected sex, etc. About 2
weeks after beginning Xenadrine my life changed dramatically. I know it was
the Xenadrine, because I have an identical twin and two years prior to this
he did the same thing. He began taking Xenadrine, and about two weeks later
he got prostatitis. Yes, I know, I must be stupid to have taken it, but like
many I assumed his prostatitis was just a coincidence. Live and learn, I
suppose. This also underscores the point, I believe, that you shouldn't try
to take shortcuts.
At any rate, to make a long story short, I began this lovely adventure
almost going insane from the pain and other associated problems. Even if you
didn't have any pain, feeling like you were going to ejaculate AND urinate
immediately all day long with no relief is enough to drive anyone over the
edge. I wanted to die; black depression, panic attacks (never had these
before)...the whole nine yards. But the pain...I can hardly describe it.
Only someone who's had it could comprehend. And of course urinating every
15-20 minutes is always loads of fun. Fortunately, my brother told me about
this newsgroup. I subscribed and began learning about my problem. I met guys
like me and, let me tell you, it is most comforting at a time like that to
know you aren't the only one having to endure it...that you aren't the only
one. Guys like Robbrou, Rhemium, Anonymous, and others were a big help.
Fast forward one year...
Now I'm approximately 98 - 99% improved. I eat or drink whatever I want w/
no discernible effect. I continue to take quercetin, beta-sitosterol, and a
few other vitamins and such (selenium, zinc, etc.). My main symptoms now are
a slightly uncomfortable feeling if I have a really full bladder, but this
doesn't bother me at night...I don't ever wake up to go to the bathroom. I
also get these small "vibrations" every now and then in my prostate, like
very gentle muscle twitches - no pain and they don't occur that often. The
curious thing is that I get them in other muscles also (arms, legs, back),
so maybe it's not related - just a muscle thing. Or I could just be
hyper-sensitive and paranoid about that area now and it's always been like
that. Prostatitis will do that to you.
Only very occasionally do I have a bit of an achy feeling. The only real
symptom is if I try to have a lot of sex, say like ejaculate 3 or more times
in one "episode" or go a long time during sex without ejaculating, I get the
ache again but it usually subsides in an hour or so. By and large in my
everyday life it has no real impact. To be honest, the greatest problem is
fear...fear that it might ramp up the way it did initially. But hopefully
since a chemical probably started it, I just need to avoid that substance
and I won't have to worry about it. Luckily, my brother has never had a
recurrence.
As to this newsgroup, I think that it, along with chronicprostatitis.com, is
the most valuable resource a prostatitis sufferer has, provided that bastard
NSMG doesn't have his way. I used to post here quite a bit during my initial
flare up, but have cut back a lot since I have improved. I still check in
from time to time though.
So to the new guys, just because someone says "there is no cure" in no way
means that you will persist in your initial state. I think that in the
majority of people, provided they don't have an active bacterial infection,
with the passage of time the immune response dies down and can possibly
resolve. But even if it doesn't go away completely, it won't necessarily
incapacitate you...you can actually live with it. The key is to become
educated about your problem. LISTEN to guys like Rhemium, Dr, Shoskes, etc.
READ www.chronicprostatitis.com. IGNORE the quacks, freaks, and cretins, of
whom NSMG is the worst. And you will get better.
Thad
Rhemium
Thad said:
> I wanted to die; black depression, panic >attacks (never had these
>before)...the whole nine yards.
Yep. Newbies need to know this is relatively normal for CP sufferers,
especially at first - and that it DOES get better.
>also get these small "vibrations" every >now and then in my prostate, like
>very gentle muscle twitches - no pain and >they don't occur that often. The
>curious thing is that I get them in other >muscles also (arms, legs, back),
I get them all over, too, Thad. EVERYWHERE!! I had an EEG and an MRI which
revealed nothing, though. It's always fun to piss money away.
>Or I could just be
>hyper-sensitive and paranoid about that >area now and it's always been like
>that. Prostatitis will do that to you.
CP has turned me into a hypochondriac, quite honestly.
>As to this newsgroup, I think that it, along >with chronicprostatitis.com, is
>the most valuable resource a prostatitis >sufferer has, provided that bastard
>NSMG doesn't have his way.
Oh, well. Every NG has a trollish moron.
Good to hear you're doing better, Thad. Your story never gets old to me! I'm
not as far along as you - but I'll get there.
Thanks for the props, too. One thing CP did to me was made me feel like I have
a duty to combat the quacks and idiots with regard to CP treatment/research,
and I'll continue to do so from here on out.
Rules of Thumb for Newbies:
1. NSMG is a moron and is here merely to inflame.
2. Steer clear of the Prostatitis Foundation - although Ken means well, he
works for a band of myopic, self-interested doofuses.
3. Stay the hell away from anybody who says the "c" word ("CURE"). This means
Tucson, Ron Wheeler's joint, etc.
4. Listen to Anonymous and the other dudes who run the
www.chronicprostatitis.com website. SERIOUSLY, I owe these dedicated people
TONS of gratitude.
I am not so ashamed to say that I was suicidal during my year of hell. I
didn't want to do it, but I was just, I dunno, scared and clueless.
Well, these guys gave me more than a "clue" - they gave me the empowerment to
stick it to the quacks and the knowledge to spread legitimate advice to others.
In the past two years, I've met so many men over the net, and I honestly think
the networking of men helping other men in need creates a positive vibe in my
life.
But I'll never forget those who tried to take my money and "cure" me back in
the day, much to their detriment. MUCH to their detriment. ;-)
Nice post, Thad. You're a valued poster here and I hope you stick around AND
feel better at the same time.
Jim Backus
wrote:
> Hello, I am new to all this and I am looking to hear about recovery
> stories: and, the ways in which people helped alleviate their
> symptoms. I look forward to hearing from you all.
Not cured, but managing my problem.
Only suffered significant pain during acute phases.
I've virtually given up coffee - down from 5 or more cups a day to 1 a
week. Still drink lots of tea, water, fruit juices and fruit cordials.
Beer occasionally but have to be extra watchful after a boosy weekend.
I'm constantly alert for the signs of a flare up and if I sense one is
on the way use a urinary alkaliser (eg Ural) and drink more fluids -
especially water and tea. Early signs of a flare up are an increase in
the slight ache that I have most of the time. slight burning on
urination, or peeing at an angle - don't ask my why - but this is a
warning.
I've not taken antibiotics for it for over 6 months now. If it stays
as it is I can live with it. It's given me less trouble in the last
six months than in the previous 8 years.
Good luck
--
Jim
Mike
> I contracted non-bacterial prostatitis about a year ago from taking a
> thermogenic (Xenadrine),
Thad,
I started experiencing my symptoms shortly after a 2 month course
of androstene-dione, but I have not completely elimintated infection
as being a cause since I'm a promiscuous bastard (however, tests
havent found any). Also, I have found that products containing
ephidrene such as Thermodrene definetly worsen my symptoms. I'm
pretty sure Thermodrene and Xenadrine are very similar if not
identical yet seperate brand names. Hmmm... our conditions are
probably related.
Mike
Steve Schow
Xenadrine? I used to take Xenedrine all the time, but now I don't take it.
I was taking it all the time for about a year. I haven't taken it since the
onset of this problem over a year ago.
???
"Mike" <gnos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9782eeb7.0201...@posting.google.com...
Rhemium
>Xenadrine?
We've heard a lot of guys end up here after taking lots of weight lifting
supps.
A lot of weightlifters here...
Doesn't Xenadrine have a label that says something like, "do not take if you
have an enlarged prostate"? Most of those supps say something like that.
Thad Noles
> I started experiencing my symptoms shortly after a 2 month course
> of androstene-dione, but I have not completely elimintated infection
> as being a cause since I'm a promiscuous bastard (however, tests
> havent found any). Also, I have found that products containing
> ephidrene such as Thermodrene definetly worsen my symptoms. I'm
> pretty sure Thermodrene and Xenadrine are very similar if not
> identical yet seperate brand names. Hmmm... our conditions are
> probably related.
>
> Mike
Mike,
I don't believe anyone has rigorously investigated the negative effects of
lean muscle aids like androstenedione, norandrostenedione, or
androstenediol, but quite a few posts have been made where someone thinks
their prostate troubles started after taking one of these supplements,
particularly androstenedione. My advice would be don't do it. Just be
disciplined, work out regularly, eat adequate amounts of protein, and let
nature take its course. Don't try to circumvent or speed up the process or
you may be sorry.
As to Xenadrine, I am sure it was the culprit due to the "twin effect" I
posted earlier. The chance of BOTH my brother and me contracting prostatitis
from some other cause seems ridiculous in light of the circumstances. We
both were fine until we took Xenadrine, then two weeks later we get
prostatitis, only he did this two years previous to my episode. As I've
stated before, I believe it was some kind of allergy. As children, my
brother and I were horribly allergic to, well, just about everything,
particularly all milk products, chocolate, soybeans, dogs, cats, and most
grasses, pollen, mold, the list goes on. We were sick a lot w/ asthma and
other upper / lower respiratory problems. As we grew older, we seemed to
grow out of most of it, though some sensitivity still remains.
Xenadrine is a thermogenic, a supplement designed to give you energy and
help you lose weight by boosting your metabolism. It's one of a class of
substances know as an ECA stack, ECA standing for Ephedrine, Caffeine, and
Aspirin. There are many others, such as Hydroxycut, Thermo S25, Max Thermo
Burn, etc. Now I don't dispute that Xenadrine works, because it obviously
does (as has been shown in clinical studies), but I think that for sensitive
individuals, something in it causes an adverse reaction. It does have a
warning on the bottle to refrain from use if you have prostate problems, but
this is mainly due to the presence of ephedrine. Ephedrine acts in the
opposite fashion of alpha blockers like Flowmax, which means it can make it
harder to urinate; in fact, if you have a bad case of BPH, it might cause
you to go into acute urinary retention, where you can't urinate at all and
get to have a nice catheter installed until the effect wears off. But I took
pure ephedrine in the form of pills occasionally when I was in college and
never had any problems. I've also taken enormous amounts of caffeine and
I've taken the occasional aspirin, so I don't think the actual substances
themselves are the problem. I also don't think it's a synergistic effect
either, at least not in these forms.
Here's what I think is the problem: Xenadrine prides itself on the fact that
its ECA stack is created from "natural" sources - aspirin from white willow
bark, ephedrine from MaHuang, caffeine from Guarana, and an extra
ingredient, synephrine, from citrus aurantium. Here's the breakdown and some
info:
Citrus Aurantium (4% synephrine): 125mg
http://www.rain-tree.com/orange.htm
MaHuang (6% ephedrine): 335mg
http://www.ephedra.net/
Guarana Extract (22% caffeine) 910mg
http://www.guarana.com.my/
White Willow Bark (15% salicin): 105mg
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/substances_view/0,1525,10069,00.html
If you look at Xenadrine pills, you can actually see the ground-up herbs
inside a thin plastic capsule. I believe I had an allergic reaction to one
or more of these "natural" sources. I know I am currently allergic to
various pollens, grasses and such, so it's not unreasonable to hypothesize
that these substances, in this form, were the problem. I did quite a bit of
research on side effects before purchasing this product, and I never saw any
concerning prostate problems (except for the aforementioned ephedrine
effect) - they all mainly involved various heart problems such as
palpitations. Here's a statement from the FDA:
http://www.ephedrine-ephedra.com/pages/ephedrine_side_effects.html
Because of these issues, I cannot recommend that anyone try it. It may work
great for you, but then again, why take the risk? I can assure you that if
you are one of the unlucky few, words cannot express the depths of regret
you will endure, and more. If you want to lose weight, follow a balanced
diet and exercise. If you want some energy, have a coke or some coffee. Your
prostate, or your heart, may thank you.
Thad
Steve Schow
did you do to get there?
"Thad Noles" <tjn...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:H4H%7.9959$464.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Sven Garlick
The only patients I have encountered who have had long-standing
meaningful relief had it due to the following:
1) It just got better through time
2) It happened to get better during whatever therapy was instituted
(or possibly it was going to happen as per #1)
3) Quercetin (ditto, though I believe this compound has helped a
significant number of men who I have recommended it to...though the
placebo effect or the natural course of the disease improvement could
have also been in play. Worth a shot.)
SG
Josh
I had CP for over 5 years. I haven't had a single symptom in about
three months now. Here's what worked for me:
30 mg Zinc daily
2 mg copper daily
2500 mg Arginine/Ornithine mix at 2:1 ratio before bedtime
1 tablespoon flaxseed oil daily or every other day
UDO Super 5 probiotic tablets
zinc blocks an enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen,
raising free T levels. The arginine/ornithine helps with erectile
dysfunction via NO synthesis. Taking it before bed also raises GH,
LH, and T levels.
The UDO Super 5 probiotics work really well if your CP is associated
with stomach problems, irritable bowl syndrome, morning diahrea, etc.
Also if antibiotics help your CP for a while then it comes back, you
probably need probiotics. Whats happening is the antibiotics are
wiping everything out in your digestive track, and until they return
your CP is alleviated. Populating your intestinal tract with good
strains of bacteria gives your immune system something to do instead
of attacking your prostate.
I'm not affilated with UDO btw. The guy that made the super 5 product
was the lead pioneer in the field of intestinal flora ( i do my
research )
josh
EnVisage
"Josh" <zena...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:55fb2b68.02011...@posting.google.com...
Thanks, Josh, for a very informative post.
Can you tell us....for how long did you follow this regimen before you began
to notice a definite improvement?
I've been on a similar regimen for just over three weeks, but I've not yet
experienced any marked alleviation of symptoms. Still, even if the prostate
condition doesn't improve, I'll probably carry on with "the programme" --
for the sake of general health. I used to have the occasional bout of adult
acne, but since I started with zinc supplementation (and all-round improved
diet) my skin has cleared tremendously.
Thanks.
-- Mike.
Josh
I noticed a difference from zinc after about a month taking it. IMO
it's not fully effective until you've taken it for 6 months. The most
noticable effect was the alleviation of this strange muscle tension
around the perneum area. So if you have that problem, take zinc.
Zinc is also one of the primary component of ejaculate, and humans
ejaculate way more than they were designed to. When I was researching
all of this I remember reading some statistic saying that if you weigh
like 150' and have a normal FDA dietary intake of zinc and ejaculate
more than once in a two week period, you are zinc deficient.
The argine/ornithine is almost immediate. You'll definately feel it
after 3 days. Argine is also a major component of ejaculate, is
responsible for the NO synthesis required for an erection, and when
taken with ornithine before bedtime, causes your hormonal system to be
more active, including GH, LH, and T levels, the most common use by
body-builders. It's almost like entering pueberty again, the male
equivalent to bloussant breast enlargement, accept it will make your
balls bigger and increase ejaculate volume.
The flaxseed oil has omega fatty acids, another component of
ejaculate. They also help lower cholesterol levels and improve blood
flow. It took about 2 weeks before I noticed an effect from this. It
makes your ejaculate less clumpy.
Lastly the probiotics help to digest the zinc and other stuff. If
your CP symptoms change depending on bowel movements, you probably
need this stuff. I noticed a difference at the toilet in about 3
days, and after about a week I had a lot more instances of "morning
wood" than normal.
When you have bad bacteria take over in your intestinal flora, what
happens is instead of the good kind digesting your food, they are
turning it into crap that you can't digest but still enters your blood
stream. It ends up just depositing anywhere. One sign of this is
little white zits on your body that never really go away or get
infected. It's really undigested crap coming out of your skin, the
largest excretory organ.
That crap also ends up in your prostate, which is why drainages
work. Your poping zits inside your prostate, caused by bad intestinal
flora (the dietary kind of acne).
Also, the bad infection in your small intestine causes your stomach
to cramp just slightly. But it's enough to make your large intestine
cramp just slightly, causing the muscle tension around your prostate
and the web of muscles around your anus. It's like how standing in
bad shoes all day can make your neck hurt. It's a chain reaction.
Any tension in your anus because of the infection is gonna affect your
erectile response also. The connection between the anus and the penis
is the basis of the digital rectal exam.
I believe the connection to intestinal flora is a major reason why
antibotics are helping some people. If you notice they don't really
help most people, but they are having some effect either way. It
would also explain why immune suppression works and why quercetin
works. It's my hunch that Q is more selective about which bacteria it
kills, so eventually just by natural progression the good bacteria
will take over in your stomach from taking Q over any period of time.
Cipro on the other hand kills everythhing and your symptoms go away
because your immune system can take a break, but it comes back the
next time you eat a cheese burger and drink a soda, foods garanteed to
raise the bad levels of bacteria. This also explains why low sugar
diets help some people (the yeast theory).
IMO the zinc, arginine/ornithine, and flax help undo the damage and
alleviate the symptoms, while the probiotics eliminate the cause.
I know it's a long shot connection, but I swear this stuff has helped
me. If it doesn't work at least there's no harm done. I like how
this solution is all dietary and nutritional in nature. Herbal
supplements are ok IMO, but I think all dietary is better and safer.
Josh
Oh one thing I forgot to mention, I also eliminated milk and beer from
my diet. After experimenting with all this stuff, doing the brocoli
treatment, trying food allergies, etc, I noticed these two caused
symptoms. Now that I take the probiotics I can drink both without
worry.
Anonymous User
> Zinc is also one of the primary
> component of ejaculate, and humans
> ejaculate way more than they were
> designed to. When I was researching all
> of this I remember reading some
> statistic saying that if you weigh like 150'
> and have a normal FDA dietary intake of
> zinc and ejaculate more than once in a
> two week period, you are zinc deficient.
Whoa! Tell that to Kenny Smith, UberStormWebMeister of the Prostatitis
Foundation, who shoots a load daily. There's something to look out for, Ken!
[snip of more silly stuff]
-------
Best websites: http://www.chronicprostatitis.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_ugroup=sci.med.prostate.prostatitis
http://www.mailgate.org/sci/sci.med.prostate.prostatitis/
NiceShyMiamiGuy
if you can, and I mean masturbate no sex with those evil women without condoms
- ahahaha !!!!
*********
>Subject: Re: looking for recovery stories
>From: Anonymous User anon...@remailer.havenco.com
>Date: 1/17/02 1:03 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <4ad2ec177fe15e51...@remailer.havenco.com>
EnVisage
>I like how this solution is all dietary and nutritional in nature. Herbal
> supplements are ok IMO, but I think all dietary is better and safer.
>
> Josh
>
Hi, Josh.
Thanks for your reply. The info you provide is very comprehensive.
Like you, I favour the idea of following a correct diet as a major part of
the management of CP. I'm not fundamentally opposed to antibiotics, but just
about every medical site and medical book I've consulted reports
unsatisfactory results with abx alone. The consensus is roughly as follows:
in some patients, success is achieved with abx (such as a quinolone, or a
co-trimoxazole-doxycycline combo), but in more than 40% of cases,
improvement brought about by abx represents only a temporary remission, with
symptoms recurring after less than one year.
In proven cases of bacterial prostatitis, dosing with the right antibiotic
is essential, but a course of antibiotics should always be followed by a
course of probiotics to restore the intestinal environment.
Whether or not a person is on antibiotics, he can only benefit from a
healthy eating pattern. There's ample evidence that nutrition can exert a
pronounced effect (positive or negative) on immune function. I have an
excellent book: "The Healing Power of Vitamins, Minerals and Herbs"
(Reader's Digest publishing). The info it contains has been thoroughly
researched. It exposes and dismisses quack claims, and endorses only those
supplements and herbs that have been demonstrated to have a definite
clinical effect. The following points are made:
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
* Zinc stimulates immunity and plays an important role in many enzymatic
processes.
* If one takes zinc supplements (30mg/day) for longer than a month, one
should also take copper (2mg/day) -- [zinc and copper are antagonistic, and
an excess of one will deplete the other.]
* Sugar has an adverse effect: it depresses immune function (especially
production of macrophage WBCs). It also serves to feed pathogenic bacteria
and yeasts, promoting their growth and spread.
* Saturated fats and hydrogenated oils depress the immune system, but oils
containing certain omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids strengthen it [flaxseed,
evening primrose, borage (starflower) and fish oils are all especially
good].
* The correct balance of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids helps to suppress
inflammatory reactions in the body.
* Zinc, selenium and vitamin E play a vital role in general prostate health.
* Fresh fruit and vegetables contain valuable bioflavonoids (quercetin being
just one of many) that stimulate immunity and control inflammation.
* Phytosterols (sterols and sterolins) contained in all plant matter
(vegetable and fruit) strengthen general immunity, and help to regulate a
"wayward" immune system. One can infer, then, that a diet rich in plant
matter would be of help in the management of those cases of CP where
autoimmune reactions play a role. It's not proven (some medical
practitioners don't even believe in autoimmune prostatitis), but the theory
is sound just the same.
* Certain herbs (such as echinacea, goldenseal, astragalus and pau d'arco)
have been shown in clinical and laboratory trials to exert a positive effect
on the immune system.
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Dietary measures will almost certainly help with the management of CP. But
even if they don't, general health and sexual function will likely improve.
I'm in full agreement with your posting.
(I'm not taking arginine or
ornithine, or any other amino acids yet, but I'll certainly be looking into
it.)
Thanks.
Go well.
-- Mike.
Anonymous User
> I'm not fundamentally opposed to
> antibiotics, but just about every medical
> site and medical book I've consulted
> reports unsatisfactory results with abx
> alone.
Most books are way out of date, and which sites are you talking about?
> The consensus is roughly as
> follows: in some patients, success is
> achieved with abx (such as a quinolone,
> or a co-trimoxazole- doxycycline combo),
All abx you mention are powerfully anti-inflammatory. See
http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html
> but in more than 40% of cases,
> improvement brought about by abx
> represents only a temporary remission,
> with symptoms recurring after less than
> one year.
Because it's not an infection. Duh!
> Sugar has an adverse effect: it depresses immune
> function (especially production of
> macrophage WBCs). It also serves to
> feed pathogenic bacteria and yeasts,
> promoting their growth and spread.
I've never seen any science to support the contention that sugar supports
pathogenic bacteria. Can you provide proof?
> Certain herbs (such as echinacea....
> have been shown in clinical
> and laboratory trials to exert a positive
> effect on the immune system.
Echinacea has a horrible effect on me. YMMV.
EnVisage
news:d2a38a49d62c28c5...@remailer.havenco.com...
> "EnVisage" <alup...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
> > I'm not fundamentally opposed to
> > antibiotics, but just about every medical
> > site and medical book I've consulted
> > reports unsatisfactory results with abx
> > alone.
>
> Most books are way out of date, and which sites are you talking about?
Go to ANY medical site....
http://www.medicinenet.com/
http://www.my.webmd.com/
Or go to those that deal specifically with prostate conditions....
www.chronicprostatitis.com/
http://www.prostatitis.org
The prevailing view is as follows:
Cases of chronic bacterial prostatitis represent the minority, but they are
not non-existent. Appropriate antibiotics or antimicrobials are prescribed
in cases where an infective agent can be identified. A prolonged course of
antibiotics is required (8-12 weeks, or more), and even then recurrence of
the condition is commonplace (in about 40% of patients).
[None of what I typed in my original post contradicted this orthodox medical
view.]
The word "unsatisfactory" (or words with the same meaning) comes up rather
often in discussions concerning the results of antibiotic treatment of
chronic prostatitis. Sad, but true.
> > The consensus is roughly as
> > follows: in some patients, success is
> > achieved with abx (such as a quinolone,
> > or a co-trimoxazole- doxycycline combo),
>
> All abx you mention are powerfully anti-inflammatory. See
> http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html
> > but in more than 40% of cases,
> > improvement brought about by abx
> > represents only a temporary remission,
> > with symptoms recurring after less than
> > one year.
>
> Because it's not an infection. Duh!
'Anonymous User' probably doesn't have infectious prostatitis, but he cannot
assume that all cases of CP are the same as his. At least 5-10% of CP
patients are diagnosed with CBP (chronic bacterial prostatitis) with or
without recurring
urethritis....(http://www.urologychannel.com/jaydbursteinmd/articles_prostat
itis.shtml)
Try telling their doctors that these patients don't have an infection.
CP is a condition with multiple possible causes. One case of CP is not
necessarily the same as another. Doctors will tell you that generalisations
are odious and that diagnosis needs to be made on an individual basis. So
the blanket statement "...it's not an infection" is a bit presumptuous.
> > Sugar has an adverse effect: it depresses immune
> > function (especially production of
> > macrophage WBCs). It also serves to
> > feed pathogenic bacteria and yeasts,
> > promoting their growth and spread.
>
> I've never seen any science to support the contention that sugar supports
> pathogenic bacteria. Can you provide proof?
One need only look at conditions in which blood sugar is raised. In
uncontrolled diabetics, high blood sugar is associated with septicaemia and
a host of other infections (especially cellulitis). The role that sugar
plays in perpetuating these infections is well-established. Even in
non-diabetic persons, a high intake of sugar and sugar-containing foods is
associated with "peaks" in blood sugar and triglycerides, to the extent that
sucrose restriction is routinely recommended for persons with chronic
infectious conditions (including: cellulitis, erysipelas, cystitis, candidal
vaginitis (in women) and candidal balanitis
(in men).
http://www.rheumatic.org/sugar.htm
http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/health_candida_albicans.html
Sugar (sucrose) restriction is not specifically indicated in CP management
(at least not by orthodox doctors). In cases of non-infectious prostatitis,
sucrose restriction is quite likely irrelevant. But the vast majority of
qualified dietitians (I'm one of them) recognise that sucrose restriction
(in favour of carbohydrates that have a low glycaemic index) is beneficial
to overall health . My personal experience is that sugary foods are
associated with "flare-ups" (as with alcohol, although alcohol produces a
more pronounced flare-up). I accept that not all CP sufferers respond to
sugar in the same way that I do.
> > Certain herbs (such as echinacea....
> > have been shown in clinical
> > and laboratory trials to exert a positive
> > effect on the immune system.
>
> Echinacea has a horrible effect on me. YMMV.
>
As with the condition itself, responses to medications (whether they're
orthodox medicines or "alternative" herbals) vary from individual to
individual.
Anonymous User
> "Anonymous User" wrote:
> > "EnVisage" <alup...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
> > > The consensus is roughly as
> > > follows: in some patients, success is
> > > achieved with abx (such as a quinolone,
> > > or a co-trimoxazole- doxycycline combo),
> >
> > All abx you mention are powerfully anti-inflammatory. See
> > http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/abx.html
>
> > > but in more than 40% of cases,
> > > improvement brought about by abx
> > > represents only a temporary remission,
> > > with symptoms recurring after less than
> > > one year.
> >
> > Because it's not an infection. Duh!
>
> 'Anonymous User' probably doesn't have
> infectious prostatitis, but he cannot
> assume that all cases of CP are the
> same as his. At least 5-10% of CP
> patients are diagnosed with CBP
> (chronic bacterial prostatitis) with or
> without recurring urethritis....
> http://www.urologychannel.com/jaydbursteinmd/articles_prostatitis.shtml
You are starting to peddle BS again. The site you reference says nothing about
CBP presenting "without" recurring UTIs (saying "recurring urethritis" shows
you are getting out of your depth here). In fact the site says, and I agree:
"intermittent acute urinary tract infections" are the key feature of CBP. An
acute urinary tract infection is not something you forget. I've never had one,
nor have most men here.
> Try telling their doctors that
> these patients don't have an infection.
My friend, 99.9% of uros know that their CP/CPPS pts are not infected. Abx are
given to cover their butts, and because they often help symptoms for a while.
> CP is a condition with multiple possible
> causes.
That's still a moot point, IMO.
> One case of CP is not necessarily
> the same as another. Doctors will tell
> you that generalisations are odious and
> that diagnosis needs to be made on an
> individual basis. So the blanket statement
> "...it's not an infection" is a bit
> presumptuous.
It's not presumptious, indeed, it's usually true. In about 95% of cases, I'm
right.
That site says a few things about sugar which are scientifically supported, eg:
- Sugar can suppress the immune system.
- Sugar contributes to a weakened defense against bacterial infection.
- Sugar increases bacterial fermentation in the colon.
--> but this does not still support your statement
that sugar "feeds" bacteria. You are simply wrong
about that.
(BTW, that site also has a lot of silly statements: Sugar can lead to
alcoholism. Sugar causes food allergies. Sugar can cause colon cancer. This is
surpising from a .ORG site, but then again, you'll find a lot of junk "science"
at prostatitis.org too.)
> http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/health_candida_albicans.html
The candida thing is extremely controversial. It's "soft science". I won't
enter into a discussion of it with you. See:
http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/sugar.html
> Sugar (sucrose) restriction is not
> specifically indicated in CP management
> (at least not by orthodox doctors). In
> cases of non-infectious prostatitis,
> sucrose restriction is quite likely irrelevant.
No, I agree it should be restricted. It causes a lot of men symptoms, by
screwing with an already damaged immune system. But it does not "feed" bugs!
> But the vast majority of qualified
> dietitians (I'm one of them) recognise
> that sucrose restriction (in favour of
> carbohydrates that have a low glycaemic
> index) is beneficial to overall health . My
> personal experience is that sugary foods
> are associated with "flare-ups" (as with
> alcohol, although alcohol produces a
> more pronounced flare-up). I accept that
> not all CP sufferers respond to sugar in
> the same way that I do.
I agree with all that.
> > Echinacea has a horrible effect on me. YMMV.
>
> As with the condition itself, responses to
> medications (whether they're orthodox
> medicines or "alternative" herbals) vary
> from individual to individual.
Echinacea also screws with an already damaged immune system. My reaction was a
terrific stomach pain, as I remember. It revs up immunity, which is not the
best thing for CP/CPPS patients, who seem to benefit more from
immune-system-calming drugs.
Anonymous User
> --> but this does not still support your statement
> that sugar "feeds" bacteria. You are simply wrong
> about that.
I mean sugar does not "feed" bacteria involved in a putative "prostate
infection".
EnVisage
> "EnVisage" <alup...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> > At least 5-10% of CP
> > patients are diagnosed with CBP
> > (chronic bacterial prostatitis) with or
> > without recurring urethritis....
> > http://www.urologychannel.com/jaydbursteinmd/articles_prostatitis.shtml
>
> You are starting to peddle BS again. The site you reference says nothing
about
> CBP presenting "without" recurring UTIs (saying "recurring urethritis"
shows
> you are getting out of your depth here). In fact the site says, and I
agree:
> "intermittent acute urinary tract infections" are the key feature of CBP.
An
> acute urinary tract infection is not something you forget. I've never had
one,
> nor have most men here.
>
You're absolutely right when you say that I'm getting out my depth. I was
diagnosed with prostatitis. I've had the symptoms since June '99, so it's
certainly chronic. I've been told by two doctors (following tests) that the
cause is bacterial, and I've had antibiotics that didn't work. I accept that
one of the symptoms of prostatitis -- burning sensation in the urethra
during urination -- can be referred pain and that it is not necessarily
indicative of urethritis. But the sensation prompted me to ask one of the
doctors (the second one) about urethritis. He assured me (on the basis of a
urinalysis) that I didn't have urethritis, and then informed (or
misinformed) me that CBP can occur without any episodes of urethritis.
If I'm peddling BS (something I wouldn't do intentionally), then it's not
entirely my own.
"Chronic bacterial prostatitis typically demonstrates a culture of expressed
prostatic secretions that is positive for pathogens. Symptoms include
recurrent urinary tract infection, back pain or perineal pain, or patients
may be asymptomatic."
(http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3225/3_62/65077504/p1/article.jhtml)
The info on chronic prostatitis in the ADAM Medical Encyclopedia (link from
http://www.my.webmd.com/) makes the same assertion: that recurrent UTIs are
a classic symptom of chronic bacterial prostatitis, but that "there may be
no symptoms".
Some of the medical books I've consulted make no explicit statement about
recurring UTIs, but simply omit UTIs from the list of symptoms and
conditions associated with chronic bacterial prostatitis. (But, yes, you're
quite right in saying that the books are outdated. Indeed, a book is
typically outdated in the time that it takes a manuscript to go through the
process of publication).
After a perusal of several up-to-date sites, I am forced to agree with you:
the overwhelming consensus is that CBP is accompanied by recurring UTIs. So
I concede defeat on the whole UTI story.
> > One case of CP is not necessarily
> > the same as another. Doctors will tell
> > you that generalisations are odious and
> > that diagnosis needs to be made on an
> > individual basis. So the blanket statement
> > "...it's not an infection" is a bit
> > presumptuous.
>
> It's not presumptious, indeed, it's usually true. In about 95% of cases,
I'm
> right.
>
If there were even ONE case of infectious prostatitis, your blanket
statement "it's not an infection" would be presumptuous.
Still, 95% right is more right than I've been so far, and I accept that
bacterial infection is often just a convenient diagnosis. It's the one I got
(twice) and I'm beginning to have my doubts, hence the fact that I'm leaning
toward a dietary management of this thing.
On the subject of sugar.....
> > http://www.rheumatic.org/sugar.htm
>
> That site says a few things about sugar which are scientifically
supported, eg:
>
> - Sugar can suppress the immune system.
> - Sugar contributes to a weakened defense against bacterial infection.
> - Sugar increases bacterial fermentation in the colon.
>
> --> but this does not still support your statement
> that sugar "feeds" bacteria. You are simply wrong
> about that.
>
Fermentation suggests that the sugar is being processed, but I may be wrong
about bacteria being "fed" by sugar. It may be that none of them are fed by
it, and it may be that some thrive on sugar and others don't. If the latter
case is true, then I'm guilty of making my own "blanket statement" about
sugars and infection.
> Echinacea also screws with an already damaged immune system. My reaction
was a
> terrific stomach pain, as I remember. It revs up immunity, which is not
the
> best thing for CP/CPPS patients, who seem to benefit more from
> immune-system-calming drugs.
>
That makes sense, especially if the CP has an autoimmune component.
I took echinacea for two weeks and experienced definite (but short-lived)
alleviation of symptoms -- leaving me more confused than ever.
It only goes to show....each case is different.
-- Mike.