To Date Unanswered Summons Against Atheists, Skeptics & Morons Ad Nauseam
XPERT ASTR0N0MER
Here it is, early to Mercury's Day December 11th 2002 AD
& still no one has satisfactorily answered my summons as
it is presented herein- below and before. So I'll repeat
this challenge across the usenet on a regular basis till
somebody produces a scientifically-based rejoinder using
facts in evidence as I've done; to wit devoid of hearsay.
Those who fail to respond with facts are trolls...plonk!
Be aware, I can deactivate my scoring to check up on you
from time to time, so even the trolls are given a chance
to redress charges I've brought against orthodox science.
I've issued this perfectly fair and reasonable challenge
to you skeptics for over two years now, and yet, to date,
not even one of you has accepted my invitation to settle
this centuries-old debate once & for all for all to read.
Are you able to answer my summons? Then you must prove it
(don't forget that proof equals evidence and nothing less).
I've already proven my side of the debate with pure logic
based solely on facts in evidence--no hearsay did I offer.
Now it's up to the very best of you to prove your side of
the debate. If you're not best in the world, don't bother.
This challenge is for the grand prize, so winner take all,
and loser must admit defeat and stop your whining. Got it?
NOW for the challenge: How did ancient astrologers number
the heavenly spheres--the planets--expressly according to
their sidereal but not synodic order, and yet, supposedly,
not know that the planets orbit the Sun and not the Earth?
Sounds simple, doesn't it? But if it's so easy, answer it!
And while you're struggling with that quandary, show your
readers how the Earth is supposedly not the center of her
caelestial sphere? Now you can run away or face the music.
If you choose the latter and face my challenge reasonably,
logically, rationally, conclusively, and incontrovertibly,
then I swear before the God of Heaven & Earth that I, Dan
Min, full name Daniel Joseph Min, abiding in Colorado USA,
I shall henceforth cease and desist from posting any more
articles to the usenet--without exception. I'll disappear
from the face of the Earth as far as your usenet world is
concerned. No more aliases or remailers. I am outta here!
Conversely, if you fail to meet my challenge, then every
one of you skeptics can kiss my rosey white ass, & cease
and desist from your pissing & whining & moaning against
my usenet presence. Sure, I could killfile every one who
shows his or her self to be an inept detractor, naysayer,
and otherwise unhelpful troll with your many sockpuppets,
most of whom I've long-since killfiled beyond subversion.
See also my "Sidereal Planets of the Week" Challenge for
those of you who think you are smart enough to refute it.
But this is my final offer. If you give up now, you lose,
and I shall forevermore post where and when I like while
you recede into the annals of inadequacy and inferiority
so the usenet world will know once and for all who's who
and what's what--and no lame-assed excuses will save you!
Meanwhile, I've got plenty of articles to write and post
to my favorite newsgroups. Is there not a man among you?
You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? Prove it!
Daniel Joseph Min
PS just to help you poor skeptics and atheists out, here
are astro-charts that I've posted often, proving my case
and invalidating your "age of enlightenment" permanently.
If you don't answer this summons, rest assured I'll post
it again and again and again, all over the usenet, until
such time as someone among you stands up to my challenge:
This first chart summarizes synodic & sidereal
periods of the planets in mean solar days, and
mean tropical years, to measure sidereal years.
This is especially important, since this shows
how the order of the heavens is established by
sidereal--not synodic--periods of the heavens:
PLANET ORBITS/SACRE GLOMES
S# Pla Synod Sider./TropY
*10 Plu 366.7 90800. 247.9
*9 Nep 367.5 60190. 164.8
*8 Ura 369.7 30685. 84.02
7 Sat 378.1 10760. 29.45
6 Jup 399.9 4332.2 11.86
5 Mar 780.0 686.98 1.881
4 Sun ----- 365.26 1.000
3 Ven 583.9 224.70 0.615
2 Mer 115.9 87.969 0.241
1 Moo 29.53 27.322 0.075
*NOTE:Ura rules Earth's sidereal year =~ 1.00004
Nep rules Earth's tropical year =~ 1.00000
Plu rules Earth's own geocenter =~ 0.00000.
Cf. the above with this chart dated cir. 440 AD, which
agrees with Greco-Roman authorities dated centuries BC;
that's centuries **BEFORE CHRIST**, you do the math....
COELVM EMPIREVM HABITACVLVM DEI ET OMNIVM ELECTORVM
Heaven Name Place Musa goddess
Tenth Primum Mobile Earth/Pluto Mnemosyne Memory
Ninth Mobile Seasons/Neptune Thalia Comedy
Eighth Caelest.Firma. Stars/Uranus Urania Astronomy
Seventh SATVRNI Saturn Polihymnia Hymnody
Sixth IOVIS Jupiter Euterpe Melody
Fifth MARTIS Mars Eratho Lyric
Fourth SOLIS Sun Melpomene Tragedy
Third VENERIS Venus Terpsicore Dance
Second MERCVRII Mercury Kaliope Epic
First LVNE Moon Klio History
This demonstrates conclusively that ancient astronomers
knew full-well that the planets orbit the Sun, and also
that the Earth is the center of her caelestial firmament.
*Summary Exposition of the Copernican Heresy:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f91cae5ee66a8e54...@dizum.com
_______________________________________________
POSTPOSTSCRIPT
You see it's a "catch 22" for orthodox academia.
They want you to think that ancient cultures on
the whole had little or no understanding of the
heliocentric sidereal motions of the planets or
the proper motion of stars, or even the physics
of light. They want you to abandon common sense
and believe that human civilizations are hardly
older than religious fanatics believe the whole
world is...you know, maybe seven thousand years.
You see, orthodox science and religion do share
more in common than they care to admit. Neither
acknowledges antediluvian high-cultures such as
Atlantis, or any technologically advanced civil-
ization prior to our most recent centuries. See?
Basically, they've got three options, which are:
1) Show how the synodic motions of the planets
as observed and tracked against the stellar
backdrop of Earth's caelestial sphere gives
their sidereal periodicities over long-term
astronomical observation and record keeping,
revealing more subtle components of orbital
mechanics, such as orbital eccentricity and
inclination to the Earth-Sun ecliptic plane,
making astronomic predictions more accurate
and reliable as ephemeredes became advanced.
E.g., as the Parthian magoi predicted those
Venus-Jupiter conjunctions 12 Aug 3 BC, and
17 Jun 2 BC, a.k.a. the "Star" of Bethlehem
(1 Elu 3758/16 Tam 3759;JD 1720551/1720860).
That took some serious astronomical ability
and astrological deductions to recognize it.
Among the most adept ancient astronomers as
the Babylonians, Mayans, and other cultures
who are for the most part lost to antiquity,
they developed sophisticated understandings
of planetary ephemeredes and stellar proper
motion, Earth's tropical precession against
her caelestial firmament achieving reliable
predictions of synodic, sidereal & tropical
multiples with a high degree of reliability
and accuracy. The "downside" to all this is
that orthodox science would be admitting to
the world that ancient astronomers from all
walks of life and around the globe were, in
fact, vastly more aware of the solar system
and Earth's caelestial firmament than those
orthodox scientists and fanatics will admit.
So you see this first option is impractical,
requiring honesty which they don't practice.
The orthodox are not experienced in honesty.
They couldn't be truthful if they wanted to.
2) Barring the first option, orthodox academia
can claim that observable synodic motion of
the planets--against the Earth's caelestial
sphere--such planetary motion meant nothing
to ancient astronomers, as they were simply
unable to think for themselves. They had no
capacity for disciplined scientific inquiry.
In a word, the ancients were dumb as a rock,
low-grade morons no smarter than any monkey
swinging in the trees of unexplored jungles.
That's how they built pyramids because they
were so naive. Anybody can see that, right?
They've tried this option before but lately
it isn't working any more, in no small part
due to modern digital communication and the
availability of the internet to common folk.
The wornout lies of the orthodox just don't
hold up under scrutiny the way they used to.
Calling the pyramid builders stupid doesn't
hold water any more. Many of us know better.
The pyramid builders were smarter than most
of us are today. In some ways, much smarter.
Which brings us to the third & final option.
3) Ignore all of the evidence that proves that
ancient astronomers were a lot smarter than
orthodox academia will ever admit--which is
the easiest and most convenient option that
any of them among orthodox science can take.
Ignore all the evidence, and lie like a rug.
Let the record show, that this final option
is the only practical one for those who lie
for a living. Therefore that's what they do.
This final option is the choice of orthodox
scientists and religious fanatics. But soon
they will lie no more. They will be no more.
Happy Holidays!
Daniel Joseph Min
*Min's "Sidereal Planets of the Week" Challenge:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3ORFNDIZ3760...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's "Sidereal Planetary Orbits" Challenge:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=WP9Q32283759...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Music of the Spheres:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Y8HI27B73759...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Compleat Tarot Pak:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9IBCQ0PN375...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Official Home Page:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=UWP3KH4W3756...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
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Nomen Nescio
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On 10 Dec 2002 "Peter van Velzen" wrote:
><snippity snip>
>
Somehow you've missed the point. My challenge is for experts in
astronomy and ancient history to prove using only hard evidence
that ancients didn't know the Sun is at the center of planetary
sidereal orbits. After all, it's the "modern" orthodoxy who has
made the claim I say prove it! Clearly I have proven my side of
the discussion using only hard evidence and logic. I have shown
that in ancient times it was common knowledge to the world that
the planets orbit the Sun sidereally and the same planets orbit
the Earth synodically. This conclusion is based strictly on the
extant evidence in which the spheres are ordered explicitly per
their sidereal--not synodic--orbits! Furthermore, I have proven
that the common association of the planets with the days of the
week correspond verbatim with the same sidereal order raised in
sidereal (diatonic) fifths. That makes *two* ancient reckonings
in perfect agreement by sidereal order. Heliacal and achronycal
observations were commonplace in ancient times (as each student
of archaeo-astronomy must be aware), planets appearing near the
minimum arc or gamma against the backdrop of identifiable stars
eventually reappear near the same place yielding their sidereal
interval relative to their synodic interval. These are known as
synodic multiples, such as the following table which is derived
directly from the extant ancient Babylonian records exemplifies,
listing periodicities in sidereal, synodic & tropical multiples:
MERCURY:
85 mean-synodic periods =~ 27 tropical years;
191 sidereal ~ 145 mean-synodic ~ 46 tropical
VENUS:
157 mean-synodic periods =~ 251 tropical years;
1871 sidereal ~ 720 mean-synodic ~ 1151 tropical
MARS:
22 mean-synodic periods =~ 47 tropical years
151 sidereal ~ 133 mean-synodic ~ 284 tropical
JUPITER:
76 mean-synodic periods =~ 83 tropical years
36 sidereal ~ 391 mean-synodic ~ 427 tropical
SATURN:
57 mean-synodic periods =~ 59 tropical years
9 sidereal ~ 256 mean-synodic ~ 265 tropical
Similarly impressive data can be found from the ancient Mayans,
e.g., as this simple analysis neatly summarizes for the novice:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ISN8J0YL3729...@frog.gilgamesh.org&output=gplain
This goes for Greco-Roman, Egypto-Babylonian, Vedic, Chinese,
pre-Columbian/Mesoamerican, Celt, Norse, African, Aboriginal,
Atlantean, you name it, the ancients were a lot smarter than
the orthodoxy is willing (or even able, apparently) to admit.
______________________________________________________________
IN CONCLUSION
For orthodox academia to continue ignoring the extant evidence
which proves incontrovertibly that ancient astronomers clearly
understood at least the basic principles of astronomy, such as
sidereal, synodic, tropical and daily periodicities of planets
within reasonable margins or tolerances of error, also Earth's
rotational precession against her caelestial firmament etc etc,
not the least of which, is the evidently-common knowledge that
the Sun is the center of the sidereal orbits, and Earth is the
center of her caelestial sphere--hence synodic orbits relative
hereto our home planet--for the academic orthodoxy to deny the
evidence merely serves to further discredit them especially in
light of myriads of other absurdities the orthodox has claimed
but everywhere one looks, evidence stands contrary to orthodox
beliefs and dogmas. The facts alone have ripped them to shreds.
The ancients were knowledgeable. It's the "moderns" who aren't. `
I Rest My Case.
Daniel Joseph Min
*Min's "Sidereal Planetary Orbits" Challenge:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FDUL9H62376...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's "Sidereal Planets of the Week" Challenge:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Q847N9X83760...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Music of the Spheres:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Y8HI27B73759...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Compleat Tarot Pak:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9IBCQ0PN375...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Official Home Page:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=UWP3KH4W3756...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
__
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erc
when you say that ancient civilizations knew about the planetary orbits do
they make mention to all current planets or do they allow for the extra ones
like nibiru/planet x the outer planets being originally moons of the large
gas giants, i ask this to reconsile your theoris with those of other ancient
civilizations like the sumerians etcetc. they say that another celestial
body nibiru/the sun's nemesis has an orbit about 3750 years and right now
would be about as far as it could be from earth. at the time of your
civilizations this celestial body might have had a closer orbit thus the
ancients might have know about it and recorded it. whether or not it is the
that they ancients could actually see the planets and their orbits or they
are just reciting ultra ancient history and modifying it for their own
purposes is irrelevant, i just want in your opinion whether the ancients you
believe in recorded or acknowledged the tribulations caused by
nibiru/nemesis...
i in no way wish to accept your challenge i just want your opinion, or
actually as many as possible that have some reasonabl knowledged assocated
with them so that i can make my own interpretation of what happened in our
sols early development.
wouldn't ou like to know whether our sun actually took over our system that
was ruled by nibiru/nemesis and where it is know, along with other huge
questions such as how earth manages to have soooo much extra water for its
current orbit around the sun, the peculiar geography of the earth that would
suggest that we suffered a tremendous 'earth shattering' calamity more than
once and lastly why we have fossil evidence of animal (dinosaurs) that today
would not be able to survive but where the theory that earth impacted a moon
of nibiru/nemesis on which it would be acceptable for these animals to have
live many many millions of years ago, much longer than the 65 million that
is commonly accepted? i would certainly like conclusive answers to these
questions.
hey and if you've read this far i guess you do offer you challengees the
chance to speak before you choose to forcibly ignore them.
"XPERT ASTR0N0MER" <the.gods.reign@in._heauen&earth&hades._below> wrote in
message news:FDUL9H62376...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f91cae5ee66a8e54ef531b46828a11b2@dizum.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3ORFNDIZ37600.2140277778@Gilgamesh-frog
.org
>
> *Min's "Sidereal Planetary Orbits" Challenge:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=WP9Q322837596.7468981482@Gilgamesh-frog
.org
>
> *Min's Music of the Spheres:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Y8HI27B737594.1518171296@Gilgamesh-frog
.org
>
> *Min's Compleat Tarot Pak:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9IBCQ0PN37594.155462963@Gilgamesh-frog.
org
>
> *Min's Official Home Page:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=UWP3KH4W37560.6238425926@Gilgamesh-frog
XP*RT'ASTR*N*MER
>i have a simple amateur question to your current postings.
>
Good. There's no such thing as a stupid question provided it
is based on a natural curiosity and not superficial rhetoric.
Apparently you're flirting with the latter. Please be direct.
>
>when you say that ancient civilizations knew about the planetary orbits
>
No! I didn't say that at all. Rather I showed this to be true.
See the difference? Evidence surpasses ad hoc rhetoric period.
>
>do they make mention to all current planets
>
Yes, as a matter of incontrovertible fact the ancients do indeed,
in fact, make repeated and very profound reference to the eighth,
ninth and tenth heavens. This requires understanding of what the
heavens are. They understood it. Whether we do is another matter.
Eight is the fixed heaven. Nine is Mobile. Ten, is Primum Mobile;
i.e. sidereal, tropical and Earth's daily rotation, respectively;
& don't forget, that the latter pertains to sidereal angle-hours.
>
>or do they allow for the extra ones
>like nibiru/planet x the outer planets being originally moons of the large
>gas giants,
>
That's certainly a possibility. Notably as the ancient SPR YTzYRH
reiterates "Ten is the number of the ineffable Sephiroth, ten and
not nine, ten and not eleven." I hope you respect the rabbi. Okay?
Why add to the formulae or combinations thereof? Ten is the value.
>
>i ask this to reconsile your theoris with those of other ancient
>civilizations like the sumerians etcetc.
>
Well then, let's reiterate the Babylonian astronomical teachings
which have passed down to us in thousands of surviving fragments.
>
>they say that another celestial
>body nibiru/the sun's nemesis has an orbit about 3750 years and right now
>would be about as far as it could be from earth.
>
I am open to conjecture based on evidence. If you have evidence
you should provide URLs if available or at least a bibliography.
>
>at the time of your
>civilizations this celestial body might have had a closer orbit thus the
>ancients might have know about it and recorded it. whether or not it is the
>that they ancients could actually see the planets and their orbits or they
>are just reciting ultra ancient history and modifying it for their own
>purposes is irrelevant,
>
Okay, I guess that rectifies my previous objection. You've made
accommodation for anyone who might provide "adjusting" evidence
which could very well "adjust" your casual historical reference.
If it's widely publicized in book form then it's understandable.
If not, then it's up to you to provide the table of authorities.
Everything I've presented is conspicuously extant and available.
Frankly, I hate bullshit. You had better backup your assertions.
>
>i just want in your opinion whether the ancients you
>believe in recorded or acknowledged the tribulations caused by
>nibiru/nemesis...
>
These are compelling questions that you're presenting. You
show a definite talent for phrasing your barely-rhetorical
questions such that virtually anyone would feel obliged to
answer them, to wit I am interested and fascinated by your
reply. Let's see what I can do...my "opinion" is only that.
I'm drawn to facts. That makes my opinions worth something.
You notice that I NEVER voice my opinions in lieu of facts,
and I'm prompt to condemn anyone who presents the contrary.
>
>i in no way wish to accept your challenge i just want your opinion,
>
I'm flattered. I gather that if you took exception with
my challenge, you're selectively redirecting the energy
to the disposition. I respect you. You're a fine writer
if not published. I dig raw, sloppy energy like Hendrix
used to play live in concert. Everyone took a back seat
to Hendrix, kinda like Neal Young observed, "there's no
one even in the same building with that guy!" Good work!
Zero discipline...apart from his PASSION to be creative.
That's beyond drugs, beyond circumstance. Pure creation.
It's no wonder Jimi Hendrix was from Arcturus souljourn.
If you harbor any doubts please check this archived URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FMS6IGBI370...@frog.nyarlatheotep.org
>
>or actually as many as possible that have some reasonabl knowledged assocated
>with them so that i can make my own interpretation of what happened in our
>sols early development.
>
You've said a mouthful! I defy anyone else reading to
render such adequate comments to warrant your invites.
Although I detect your quid pro quo "disclaimer" such
that if I didn't reply, you've alloted accommodations.
Again, I commend you for your collective anticipation,
but I do notice your preoccupation with your rhetoric.
>
>wouldn't ou like to know whether our sun actually took over our system that
>was ruled by nibiru/nemesis and where it is know, along with other huge
>questions such as how earth manages to have soooo much extra water for its
>current orbit around the sun, the peculiar geography of the earth that would
>suggest that we suffered a tremendous 'earth shattering' calamity more than
>once and lastly why we have fossil evidence of animal (dinosaurs) that today
>would not be able to survive but where the theory that earth impacted a moon
>of nibiru/nemesis on which it would be acceptable for these animals to have
>live many many millions of years ago, much longer than the 65 million that
>is commonly accepted? i would certainly like conclusive answers to these
>questions.
>
If you welcome Edgar Cayce's readings on this subject,
then you must know that human-kind dates back tens of
of millions of sidereal years--at least! The profiles
of Earth's geography & oceanography betray her sordid
catastrophic past. The Earth supports corruption with
the Sun providing the power...even the Sun of our Sun.
Mankinds rather feeble attempts at dating the distant
past are admirable if not accurate. Only God can know
who's who & what's what concerning such a broad brush
(if you've a problem with this, read the book of Job).
As you know, conventional carbon dating is merely b.s.
Scientists recognized its limitations from the get-go.
I get the sense that the answers exceed the questions.
Isn't that the marvel of God? That He/She/AdInfinitum
knows so very much more than we mere mortals can know.
The creative forces "elohiym", are the vessels of God.
Do you see this? If you do, you see the mirror of God.
If you don't know this, then you'll remember it later.
>
>hey and if you've read this far
>
There's your glaring preoccupation with a pre-emptive
alternatives in the forefront of your agenda. Oh well.
>
> i guess you do offer you challengees the
>chance to speak before you choose to forcibly ignore them.
>
That's an oxymoron to "forcibly ignore". Okay, please
accept my egregiously violent force to "make you" the
butt of my malice. I'm only joking. See what I mean??
Had I ignored you, it would've been devoid of "force".
If I used force of words, I would have said "die pig!"
Please don't insult me with such trivialities. You'll
notice that I'm entirely honest with you. That's fair.
Happy Holidays!
Daniel Joseph Min
*Min's "Sidereal Planetary Orbits" Challenge:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FDUL9H62376...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's "Sidereal Planets of the Week" Challenge:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Q847N9X83760...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Music of the Spheres:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Y8HI27B73759...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Compleat Tarot Pak:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9IBCQ0PN375...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Min's Official Home Page:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=UWP3KH4W3756...@Gilgamesh-frog.org
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Ron Miller
the most stupid.
RM
"erc" <ercschoo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MhBJ9.27532$1f7.4...@wagner.videotron.net...
> i have a simple amateur question to your current postings.
>
>
> when you say that ancient civilizations knew about the planetary orbits do
> they make mention to all current planets or do they allow for the extra
ones
> like nibiru/planet x the outer planets being originally moons of the large
> gas giants, i ask this to reconsile your theoris with those of other
ancient
> civilizations like the sumerians etcetc. they say that another celestial
> body nibiru/the sun's nemesis has an orbit about 3750 years [snipped]
Cardinal Chunder
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Learn to be an antisocial prick, just like minibrain:
JohnT
> Oh great. Now we have two nuts arguing with one another over who's ideas are
> the most stupid.
>
> RM
Ron, it's getting worse. See my post "What happens when religious
nuts control science education" which cites a copyright article
about science education in Kansas. This whole state is being
taught to be nuts believing stupid ideas. I cross-posted but missed
some of the groups this is going to, so check out alt.astronomy.solar
if you don't see the post where you're reading.
John in Bumpkinland