What does "vigorish" mean?
Bill Taylor
often. But I'd still like to know the exact meaning.
Also, where does it come from? It doesn't quite seem to be an English-looking
word, unless it's a joke slang from "vigorous". Is it from another language?
The phrase "there's slime vig here" occurred recently in an article.
What would "slime vig" be?
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Bill Taylor w...@math.canterbury.ac.nz
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God does not play dice with the universe, he plays Go.
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Tom Hamill
>Well, yes, I can work it out roughly from the context. It gets used quite
>often. But I'd still like to know the exact meaning.
>
>Also, where does it come from? It doesn't quite seem to be an English-looking
>word, unless it's a joke slang from "vigorous". Is it from another language?
>
charged by 'loan sharks', ie, of the American Gangster/Mafiosa
persuasion. At any rate, that's the only context I can recall seeing
it used. I've no idea, of course, what contextual meaning might be
attached to it in New Zealand or Austrailia.
>The phrase "there's slime vig here" occurred recently in an article.
>What would "slime vig" be?
>
It follows from my suggestion, if my memory has not misled me on
where/how I've heard the word used, that the method of doing business
and the interest rates charged by loan sharks could be viewed as being
exceeding 'slimy', ie, unfair, exploitive. Perhaps the intended
meaning in that phrase relates to some 'thing' that costs an
unreasonable amount, or a fee for some service that seems to be
excessive.
I'm curious as to the context in which the phrase was used. Would it,
by any chance, refer to a BG money game?
---tom
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Barry F Margolius
I don't know whether the word is of Brittish origin or not, but I'm pretty sure
that the meaning is the profit made be a bookmaker by way of offering _slightly_
different odds to bettors depending on which side they are betting.
More generally, I think it has come to be used to refer to any gain that comes
from a very small "sure thing" edge.
-barry
CRLO
"Well, yes, I can work it out roughly from the context. It gets used quite
often. But I'd still like to know the exact meaning.
Also, where does it come from? It doesn't quite seem to be an
English-looking
word, unless it's a joke slang from "vigorous". Is it from another
language?
The phrase "there's slime vig here" occurred recently in an article.
What would "slime vig" be?""
My dictionary says that it is probably from the Yiddish from Russian
vyigrysh (winnings or profit) and is 1. a charge taken (as by a bookie or
a gambling house) on bets or 2. interest paid to a money lender.
Anthony R Wuersch
>Bill Taylor wrote:
>The phrase "there's slime vig here" occurred recently in an article.
>What would "slime vig" be?"
>
>My dictionary says that it is probably from the Yiddish from Russian
>vyigrysh (winnings or profit) and is 1. a charge taken (as by a bookie or
>a gambling house) on bets or 2. interest paid to a money lender.
I posted "slime vig" in an article. It's an expression used in Boston for
a very important aspect of evaluating backgammon positions.
Vigorish in general refers to the extra edge held by a person on one side
of a position. This extra edge by its nature is based on various factors
which may vary depending on the position or the players, or both. It's
a residual which is left after we subtract what is calculable by explicit
mathematics from the true volatility in a game.
Often vigorish refers to skill-related equity, such as the added value of
a position when the cube holder is an expert versus an intermediate, or
the likelihood that a player will drop a cube they should be taking.
Slime vig refers to a sum of various low-probability parleys which together
can make the difference between a valid take and a close drop. A parley
of this type is called "slimy" because achieving it makes it appear as if
you were cheating with the dice.
A classic case of slime vig is where one is dancing against a five point
board, and then comes in and hits a distant blot. If a board holder has
many men not yet borne in, then the chance of a lucky roll in one of a
long series of rolls can be very substantial. It's not psychologically
likely, but probability and psychology are two different things.
--
Toni Wuersch
a...@world.std.com {uunet,bu.edu,bloom-beacon}!world!arw
Darse Billings
>In article <3igmh1$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, CRLO <cr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Bill Taylor wrote:
>>The phrase "there's slime vig here" occurred recently in an article.
>>What would "slime vig" be?"
>>
>>My dictionary says that it is probably from the Yiddish from Russian
>>vyigrysh (winnings or profit) and is 1. a charge taken (as by a bookie or
>>a gambling house) on bets or 2. interest paid to a money lender.
Webster's gives this as a possible (ancient) origin, but says that
"vigorish" is American slang (1910-1915, earlier "viggresh").
>I posted "slime vig" in an article. It's an expression used in Boston for
>a very important aspect of evaluating backgammon positions.
>Vigorish in general refers to the extra edge held by a person on one side
>of a position. This extra edge by its nature is based on various factors
>which may vary depending on the position or the players, or both. It's
>a residual which is left after we subtract what is calculable by explicit
>mathematics from the true volatility in a game.
This is close to how I interpreted it also -- as a kind of fudge factor.
In poker, an underdog hand is usually drawing to a certain number of
direct hits (such as nine cards to make a flush), and the odds are
computed accordingly. But with two or more cards to come, there are
indirect combination shots that will also win (such as runner-runner
straights). In Hold'em, these "back-door fluke-outs" can add as much as
10% to the draw probability over the last two cards. The consequence is
that the underdog often has a better chance of winning the hand than
indicated from the basic calculation.
>Often vigorish refers to skill-related equity, such as the added value of
>a position when the cube holder is an expert versus an intermediate, or
>the likelihood that a player will drop a cube they should be taking.
>Slime vig refers to a sum of various low-probability parleys which together
>can make the difference between a valid take and a close drop. A parley
>of this type is called "slimy" because achieving it makes it appear as if
>you were cheating with the dice.
Similarly, in chess, a tricky position is sometimes said to have a lot
of "cheapo potential". If you are in a difficult position, you might
try to increase the CP (see-pee), in the hope that your opponent will
overlook one of the many superficial traps. A blunder by a good player
may look egregious, but with so much stuff going on in the position, it
can occur quite frequently.
>A classic case of slime vig is where one is dancing against a five point
>board, and then comes in and hits a distant blot. If a board holder has
>many men not yet borne in, then the chance of a lucky roll in one of a
>long series of rolls can be very substantial. It's not psychologically
>likely, but probability and psychology are two different things.
So a common theme here seems to be that the slime vig is usually an
equalizer. The favourite's advantage is not as great as it may appear,
because these infrequent (but not insignificant) events work in favour
of the underdog.
Cheers, - Darse.
--
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