Teflon coated rounds
Stainless Steel Rat
shadowrun, but this topic is valid for everyone. Hopefully I can work at
dispelling a myth. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell the FASA
people on GEnie :).
MYTH: Teflon coated bullets, "cop killer rounds," are really nasty because
the teflon makes them armor piercing, makes the bullet slip between
the fibers of ballistic mesh.
FACT: The last I knew (the past two or three months) no law officer has
been fatally wounded in the line of duty by such a round.
FACT: These round are almost always solid steel projectiles, which are
already classified as armor piercing munitions. When they're not
solid steel they're full steel jacketed lead, which is also an armor
piercing round. The teflon coating is used to reduce barrel wear.
FACT: According to ballistic tests, coating non-steel or non-steel FMJ
rounds with teflon actually /reduces/ penetration against ballistic
fabrics by a tiny amount. Teflon coating on steel or FMJ rounds
little effect on penetration.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | Anything not nailed down is mine.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | Anything I can pry up is not nailed down.
Jim Stevenson's reader
rat...@ccs.neu.edu (Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
??>FACT: These round are almost always solid steel projectiles, which are
??> already classified as armor piercing munitions. When they're not
??> solid steel they're full steel jacketed lead, which is also an armor
??> piercing round. The teflon coating is used to reduce barrel wear.
??>FACT: According to ballistic tests, coating non-steel or non-steel FMJ
??> rounds with teflon actually /reduces/ penetration against ballistic
??> fabrics by a tiny amount. Teflon coating on steel or FMJ rounds
??> little effect on penetration.
HUH??????
I have been tould that the reason one would want a teflon
coating on a bullet because it forces the bullet to _keep_ its shape and
not splatter; changeing its kinetic energy into other trajectories.
Brian Trosko
: I just found a really glaring urban myth in the Lone Star Sourcebook for
: shadowrun, but this topic is valid for everyone. Hopefully I can work at
: dispelling a myth. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell the FASA
: people on GEnie :).
: FACT: According to ballistic tests, coating non-steel or non-steel FMJ
: rounds with teflon actually /reduces/ penetration against ballistic
: fabrics by a tiny amount. Teflon coating on steel or FMJ rounds
: little effect on penetration.
My experience kinda makes me back this up. A few weeks ago, we were
firing some teflon-coated .25-06 rounds. The target, in this case, was a
gallon milk jug filled with Jello (we figured it'd sorta approximate
human flesh). Kinda blew it all to hell. No neat hole, just a big mess.
LOTSA hydrostatic effect there, not what you'd expect from a bullet
supposed to penetrate all sorts of materials cleanly. Got pretty much the
same results from hollowpointed ammunition. oh well.
Ask about Casca's fanfic.
sim...@ssnet.com
--
"Sparkling Water Beverage, With Natural Peach Flavour, Made with Natural
Canadian Water." Y'know, I lived in NJ. The water was natural, sure,
but i wouldn't _drink_ it... Why is it that they think if it's "Natural"
we'll drink it? I like the Brit spelling of 'flavor', though. Cute.
Mark Grant
> I have been told that the reason one would want a teflon
>coating on a bullet because it forces the bullet to _keep_ its shape and
Hardly - if you wanted a bullet to penetrate things, you'd use a steel
jacket or tungsten carbide core, not something like teflon. In addition,
this whole business ignores the fact that, in general, the last thing you want
when you shoot a human is bullet penetration, as a bullet that penetrates
well will simply go straight thru the target and shoot some innocent
bystander on the other side (hence hollow points, plastic rounds, light
high-velocity 9mm rounds, etc). Penetration only counts when your target
is going to be wearing armor or hiding behind something.
There's a fun (if rather low-budget) video called 'Deadly Weapons' (I
forget the company that made it, but I can check my copy if anyone's
interested - Loompanics used to sell it, and it's advertised occasionally
in gun magazines) which covers a lot of these myths ('teflon-coated bullets',
'.357 magnum shoots thru engine blocks', 'silencers go phft', 'cars
explode when shot', 'fully-automatic fire is effective' etc). The
'cop-killing' 'teflon-coated' 'armor-piercing' .44 magnum KTW bullet
wouldn't even shoot thru a car door reliably (though several varieties
of standard 9mm bullets did - they're well known for overpenetration of
humans). I also like the debunking of the 'knock-down' myth where the
narrator puts on body armor and gets someone to shoot him from about
three feet with a 7.62 FAL rifle while he stands on one leg.....
Mark
Sean Malloy
Of _course_ you're going to get hydrostatic effects -- you've got a
semi-rigid container keeping the gelatin from distorting with the impact;
the reflection of the pressure waves against the jug produce the
widely-touted (and _grossly_ inaccurate) 'hydrostatic shock'. When you're
shooting living tissue, you only get the effects attributed to hydrostatic
shock if the bullet enters a tiossue-filled enclosed volume -- i.e., skull
shots. I direct you to "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue
Disruption", by Dr. Martin Fackler of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at
the Letterman Army Institute of Research, which was published in the
_Journal of Trauma_ some years ago -- reprints are available through the
National Technical Information Center.
For a quick-and-dirty verification, go get a watermelon and shoot _it_ with
the teflon-coated rounds. Back when California had the media blitz about
the evil 'assault weapons' running, an interesting news bit was aired that
showed the San Jose police shooting a watermelon with a semi-automatic
AK-47, and the watermelon exploding into fragments. What you _didn't_ see
was that the police officer had fired five shots from the AK-47 into the
watermelon and produced five neat holes in it; he drew his service pistol
and fired _one_ shot, using a Silvertip hollowpoint bullet, and blew the
watermelon to pieces; _that_ shot was cut to the officer firing the AK-47
as a demonstration of how deadly these 'assault weapons' were, because the
_real_ bullet effects would have _completely_ shot down the image that they
wanted to protray.
--
random sig #81:
Sean Malloy Navy Personnel R&D Center | If a vegetarian is someone who
San Diego, CA 92152-6800 | only eats vegetables, what's a
mal...@nprdc.navy.mil < different | humanitarian?
mal...@crash.cts.com < systems |
Barton M. Sharp
In a previous article, sim...@marlin.ssnet.com (Ask about Casca's fanfic.) says:
>Um, what flavor was the jell-O?
I've heard that grape jell-o is a much better simulation of human flesh
than, say, lime, for instance. :)
Voland
--
******************************************************************************
* Bart Sharp | "Oh I'm not omniscient--but I know a lot" *
* bm...@po.cwru.edu | "I'm the marines, the cavalry, and the wrath of God" *
******************************************************************************
Brian Trosko
: Um, what flavor was the jell-O?
Well, i don't think Jello really has actual flavors, so i'll say it was
the 'green' flavor.
Brian Trosko
: For a quick-and-dirty verification, go get a watermelon and shoot _it_ with
: the evil 'assault weapons' running, an interesting news bit was aired that
: showed the San Jose police shooting a watermelon with a semi-automatic
: AK-47, and the watermelon exploding into fragments. What you _didn't_ see
: was that the police officer had fired five shots from the AK-47 into the
: watermelon and produced five neat holes in it; he drew his service pistol
: and fired _one_ shot, using a Silvertip hollowpoint bullet, and blew the
: watermelon to pieces; _that_ shot was cut to the officer firing the AK-47
: as a demonstration of how deadly these 'assault weapons' were, because the
: _real_ bullet effects would have _completely_ shot down the image that they
: wanted to protray.
Yeah, I'll buy that. When i bipped a pumkin with normal copper-jacketed
round, got simple nice neat holes. NOt the same as a watermelon, I'll
grant, since it's got that hollow cavity inside, but i'm not gonna worry
about it.
Stainless Steel Rat
Jim> HUH??????
Jim> I have been tould that the reason one would want a teflon coating
Jim> on a bullet because it forces the bullet to _keep_ its shape and not
Jim> splatter; changeing its kinetic energy into other trajectories.
You have been deluded by the media. If you want to prevent deformation, you
use something hard, like steel, not fraction of a milimeter's thickness of
teflon. The /only/ thing teflon does is reduce barrel wear, that's it, and
not a damn thing more.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | "'Regis Philbin?' Some kind of plant?"
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Kwai Chang Caine
Sean Malloy
Mark Grant <ma...@aston.insignia.uucp> wrote:
> I also like the debunking of the 'knock-down' myth where the
>narrator puts on body armor and gets someone to shoot him from about
>three feet with a 7.62 FAL rifle while he stands on one leg.....
Just goes to show how ignorant of physics some people really are;
essentially everyone is exposed to enough science in school to have at
least a vague familiarity with Newton's Laws, but almost nobody understands
that 'for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction' means
that, if the bullet _hitting_ someone will knock them back several feet and
down, _firing_ it will do the same thing to the shooter.
--
random sig #174:
Sean Malloy Navy Personnel R&D Center | The race is not to the swift, nor
San Diego, CA 92152-6800 | the battle to the strong.
mal...@nprdc.navy.mil < different | - Ecclesiastes 9:11
mal...@crash.cts.com < systems | ...but that's the way to bet.
Carl D. Perkins
}You have been deluded by the media. If you want to prevent deformation, you
}use something hard, like steel, not fraction of a milimeter's thickness of
}teflon. The /only/ thing teflon does is reduce barrel wear, that's it, and
}not a damn thing more.
}--
}Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> | "'Regis Philbin?' Some kind of plant?"
Well, it could do one thing more. If you drop a bunch of them, that
slippery non-stick coating could make it harder to pick them up again.
Make that two more - it also makes them, more expensive.
Well, OK, three more - teflon is highly resistant to corosives, so
your bullets would not be as damaged by, say, acid as if they weren't
coated. (Of course, the part of the round that holds the explosives isn't
coated, just the projectile.)
--- Carl
Matt Moore
: My experience kinda makes me back this up. A few weeks ago, we were
: firing some teflon-coated .25-06 rounds. The target, in this case, was a
: gallon milk jug filled with Jello (we figured it'd sorta approximate
: human flesh). Kinda blew it all to hell. No neat hole, just a big mess.
: LOTSA hydrostatic effect there, not what you'd expect from a bullet
: supposed to penetrate all sorts of materials cleanly. Got pretty much the
: same results from hollowpointed ammunition. oh well.
Something i read in G & A (something I'll cyberpunk 2020 players should
subscribe to!!!) that when they were testing teh Black Talon rounds.. they
first used a water buffalo they were bringing down.. then simulated flesh
with a piece of wood, wrapped in wet rags.... they were testing for bullet
spread....
so.. mabey next time you go out.. give that one a shot.. teh rag's & wood..
might work.. I havn't personally tested it (hell.. havn't got to go out
shooting in ages...)
Shatter
Matt Moore
: You have been deluded by the media. If you want to prevent deformation, you
: use something hard, like steel, not fraction of a milimeter's thickness of
: teflon. The /only/ thing teflon does is reduce barrel wear, that's it, and
: not a damn thing more.
Yup.. best way to compair.. shoot s few 12ga slugs (lead) then follow up
with Copper slugs..
Big differance....
Shatter
Brian Trosko
: Something i read in G & A (something I'll cyberpunk 2020 players should
: subscribe to!!!) that when they were testing teh Black Talon rounds.. they
: first used a water buffalo they were bringing down.. then simulated flesh
: with a piece of wood, wrapped in wet rags.... they were testing for bullet
: spread....
: so.. mabey next time you go out.. give that one a shot.. teh rag's & wood..
: might work.. I havn't personally tested it (hell.. havn't got to go out
: shooting in ages...)
Well, I don't think i'll get a hold of Black Talons anytime
soon...Winchester (was that the company?) stopped making them. Seems that
production of a handgun round specifically designed to fragment and make
really nasty wounds was looked down on by our government, and the press.
P.R. time...
Matt Moore
: Well, I don't think i'll get a hold of Black Talons anytime
: soon...Winchester (was that the company?) stopped making them. Seems that
: production of a handgun round specifically designed to fragment and make
: really nasty wounds was looked down on by our government, and the press.
: P.R. time...
I know.. it's unfortunate too.. i don't think the ammo matters though for
the wood/rags test though... I was only mentioning the BT's incase you
might have read teh article & remembered it.. It an issue from last
summer...
Shatter
Buddha Buck
Balack Talons are back on the market... Winchester removed the black
coating, and dropped the name "Black Talon", but other than that,
their new ammo (who's name I can't remember) is the same round.
Besides, it wasn't the government so much as the press. When
Winchester voluntarily pulled the round, the government dropped the
issue, what little they were covering it.
--
bb...@nox.cs.du.edu # http://nyx10.cs.du.edu:8001/~bbuck/home.html
Buddha Buck #
85.5 Albany Street # The above opinions are mine, MINE, MINE!!!
Cazenovia, NY 13035 # and you can't have them! So there!
Eric Eisenhart
: Balack Talons are back on the market... Winchester removed the black
: coating, and dropped the name "Black Talon", but other than that,
: their new ammo (who's name I can't remember) is the same round.
: Besides, it wasn't the government so much as the press. When
: Winchester voluntarily pulled the round, the government dropped the
: issue, what little they were covering it.
GOOD!!!
Cause it's a damn nice round! I liek teh way it's got a predicatble
expansion.
And I CAN NOT STAND janet RENO.. but then that's a discussion for a
differant group!! :)
Shatter