Neanderthals and autism / Asperger syndrom.
Leif
I have a theory I would like your comments on.
For about 25,000 - 35,000 years ago Homo sapiens sapiens (the modern man)
co-existed with Homo sapiens neandertalensis (usually called Neanderthals).
This is a very short period of time in respect to evolution. The
Neanderthals had their own culture and a slightly larger brain than modern
man. It's relatively probable that inter-breeding occurred. After
co-existing for thousands of year, the Neanderthals where extinct.
So what has this to do with Asperger? Let me explain.
Maybe Neanderthals didn't get extinct, rather inter-bred with modern humans?
One thing that might indicate this is that the areas Neanderthals lived in
(study their home turf at. Neandertal Heaven), coincidences with the areas
where prosperous cultures later evolved. Is this purely a coincidence? Or
was the cooperation with the Neanderthals and later those with
Neanderthal-genes so useful that these cultures could benefit from this and
evolve? Maybe part of todays human population still carries Neanderthal
genes? People with AS have a different body language and works in a
different way than other people. Maybe the genes are here?
The theory
My hypothesis is that the cause of AS and autism is genes from Neanderthals
Argument for this theory
Co-existence
There are two types of Neanderthals and a cranie of a child with traits from
both races.
Hunting methods
Neanderthals where more like predators, like big cats. If you know how a cat
function, you know it's mostly sleeping, while it has the ability of extrem
koncentration and fast reaction while hunting. This should mean that lack of
impulse-control is a good thing, just like the ability to do nothing. These
are normal problems with AS and ADHD. Modern man has more of precision and
endurance, since they didn't hunt with close combat technique.
Way of living
Neanderthals where living at the same place while modern man often live as a
nomad. People with AS need structure and have little tolerance for changes.
Motor
Fast reaction, determinedness and strength is what's needed to surprice a
pray. Many predators also has very good hearing. AS people often have these
traits. Precise motor control is not required. Motor problems are common
with AS and ADHD.
Special walk
People with AS often walk in a particular way, without moving their hands.
This means they would be less visible, and this would be advantagous when
surprising a pray.
Body language
Aspergers almost always are conceived as cold, since they don't understand
or use our normal body language. One possible explaination for this might be
genes from another race.
Occurrence
Asperger, ADHD and Tourette Syndrom are often are mixed. There is no clear
boundary between them, nor is there a clear boundary to normal. Some
scientists believe as many as 100s of different genes are responsible. If
100s of different genes where "mutated" some way, you'd not expect them to
co-exist so often. Maybe the genes have a common source instead?
Feeling of belong together
Relations between people with AS / ADHD works a lot better than relations
with normals. Many feel they belong to another race.
You can also read it on my home-page at www.rdos.net, as well as some links
to AS (Asperger Syndrom) information and Neanderthal information. The main
reason I'm testing this theory is because I have Asperger myself, and I
don't like the terms "disease", "disorder" and "deficiency" often used by
professionals, since I feel it's more like a "wrong planet" problem.
Regards,
Leif Ekblad
James Manka
"Leif" <le...@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:9cc0ho$d8us2$1...@ID-78319.news.dfncis.de...
confirmation on the idea, but I can tell you I have worked with many
autistic people and I believe you might not be far from the truth.
Although the people I worked with were plagued with many other problems
both physical and emotional, I never felt that their intelligence was
measured properly. How can you use an I.Q. test on a person who is blind,
mute and deaf? What amazed me was their ability to find different ways to
cope with problems. It is not a lack of intelligence so much as a different
intelligence.
Keep working on your theory Leif and please remember none of us are
normal, there is no such thing.
Risé Manka
>
Andrew Melka
I can't comment on the survival of Neanderthal genes, and what
follows does not really fall in the paleo catagory.
There seem to be a series of neurologic disorders keyed to
development and aging. There is Alzheimer's with onset typically in the
7th decade of life, Parkinson's 5th decade, schizophrenia 3rd decade,
and maybe autism/ Asperger syndrom in the 1st decade. Despite the
similarities these seem to be quite different disorders, but what if
they are merely different manifestations of a single underlying
substratum. I'll tell you why this occurs to me as a possibility.
Schizophrenia is thought to have appeared for the first time in
mid-eighteenth century Europe (possibly also some depressive syndroms).
The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries saw the expansion of economies
and the growth of cities. It is likely that there was a widespread
shift at this time from what ecologists call an r reproductive stategy
to a K reproductive stategy. The r strategy is having lots of offspring
but investing little in each individual offspring. The K strategy is
having few offspring but investing heavily in each of those few. Poor
and rural is usually thought to correlate with an r stategy; while rich
and urban correlates with a K stategy.
So sixteenth and seventeenth century European parents wanted to
invest more in their children. But getting Parkinson's when your forty
can put a crimp in helping your children get a start in life. If there
is a single substratum disorder, it seems to make sense that when
natural selection started pushing down on the Parkinson's bump in the
5th decade, in short order the schizophrenia bump in the 3rd decade
poped out. Maybe just a coincidence? Consider what's happened to
schizophrenia over the last 200 years. There has been both
institutionalization and stigma as the disorder attracted attention,
also work has become more complex and family and community ties more
attenuated, all of which has made reproduction by schizohrenics less
likely. So the Schizophrenia bump is pushed down, and now I hear that
over the past few decades the incidence of autism has been increasing.
Petr Melka
ejudy
>schizophrenia over the last 200 years. There has been both
>institutionalization and stigma as the disorder attracted attention,
>also work has become more complex and family and community ties more
>attenuated, all of which has made reproduction by schizohrenics less
>likely. So the Schizophrenia bump is pushed down, and now I hear that
>over the past few decades the incidence of autism has been increasing.
>
> Petr Melka
No offense guys but rarely have i heard such middle ages reasoning.
This is the way young wives, while sitting with friends, babies and too much
coffee, come up with
what becomes, after a time, old wives tales.
I should know, i started a whole piles of theories in hopes that
some of it would outlast me.
ejudy ;-)
Neurocop
"Andrew Melka" <tme...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28463-3AE...@storefull-114.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> There seem to be a series of neurologic disorders keyed to
> development and aging. There is Alzheimer's with onset typically in the
> 7th decade of life, Parkinson's 5th decade, schizophrenia 3rd decade,
> and maybe autism/ Asperger syndrom in the 1st decade.
First of all, schizophrenia is usually evident in adolescense, the teenage
years, and in the vast majority of cases before the age of 30. In fact, the
sudden appearance of schizophrenic behavior in a person over 30 years old
would be viewed by most physicians as suspicious for some other organic
brain syndrome, or another Axis I psychiatric disorder, such as a psychotic
mood disorder.
As regards Parkinson's Disease, it is exceedingly rare to find significant
symptoms of that before the age of 50, and most patients are in their 60's
before they get the disease.
Autism, in almost all cases, is apparent by the time a child enters grade
school. i.e., by 6 years of age, and most cases are identified by ages 3 to
4.
Autism is definitely more frequent than it was even 50 years ago. And the
increase in cases cannot be reasonably attributed to better or
over-diagnosis. If you have ever had the chance to observe an autistic
child, you will appreciate this comment. It is impossible to believe that
even the most unsophisticated parent or physician, or anyone else, would
fail to recognize that a child who lacked any normal communicative ability
and who behaved as bizarrely as autistic children do, would have failed to
notice.
My opinion is that the striking increase in autism is due to the
side-effects of childhood vaccines. This is a bit off topic for this NG.
Leif Ekblad
> follows does not really fall in the paleo catagory.
>
> There seem to be a series of neurologic disorders keyed to
> development and aging. There is Alzheimer's with onset typically in the
> 7th decade of life, Parkinson's 5th decade, schizophrenia 3rd decade,
> and maybe autism/ Asperger syndrom in the 1st decade. Despite the
> similarities these seem to be quite different disorders, but what if
> they are merely different manifestations of a single underlying
> substratum.
I don't think so. With Asperger also comes a number of other traits, both
strengths and weaknesses. As far as I know, none of those would be present
with Parkinson or Alzheimer. Parkinson and Alzheimer seems only to
be destuctive disordes, while AS is not really a disorder at all, rather a
different way of functioning that once did make sense. I'm not sure
about schizophrenia, but I can very well image at least some patients might
have undiagnosed AS instead. Many people with AS are still undiagnosed or
diagnosed with other disorders.
> I'll tell you why this occurs to me as a possibility.
> Schizophrenia is thought to have appeared for the first time in
> mid-eighteenth century Europe (possibly also some depressive syndroms).
> The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries saw the expansion of economies
> and the growth of cities. It is likely that there was a widespread
> shift at this time from what ecologists call an r reproductive stategy
> to a K reproductive stategy. The r strategy is having lots of offspring
> but investing little in each individual offspring. The K strategy is
> having few offspring but investing heavily in each of those few. Poor
> and rural is usually thought to correlate with an r stategy; while rich
> and urban correlates with a K stategy.
I tend to think it's more probable that society itself makes people with
these genes feel worse and show more symptoms.
-Leif
Leif Ekblad
> increase in cases cannot be reasonably attributed to better or
> over-diagnosis. If you have ever had the chance to observe an autistic
> child, you will appreciate this comment. It is impossible to believe that
> even the most unsophisticated parent or physician, or anyone else, would
> fail to recognize that a child who lacked any normal communicative ability
> and who behaved as bizarrely as autistic children do, would have failed to
> notice.
I think classical autism is really more than one condition. It's possible
that some cases of autism is caused by vaccinations or other environmental
factors, but since classical autism is characterized by lack of
communication, it's very hard to tell if some patients indeed suffers from a
physical brain-damage. This could very well be the reason why classical
autism is getting more frequent. Another possible explaination might be that
classical autism and Asperger is not at all related conditions.
-Leif
Andre van Straaten
: Hi,
: Argument for this theory
: Co-existence
: Hunting methods
: Way of living
: Motor
: Special walk
: Body language
: Occurrence
: Feeling of belong together
: Regards,
: Leif Ekblad
I see one unresolved question:
Did the Neanderthals in general have a different social structure, which
favorized characters more relying on themselves than expecting help from
a strong sociable community?
As far what I have read, Neanderthals seem to have been pretty the same
as the Cro-Magnon in regard of group size, burials, art, music, etc.
I ask this because only behavioral _genes_ are inherited and non-genetic
behavior is always learned in every life from scratch again.
I see Asperger in this regard as a behavior to seek limited social contact
only with other Asperger people.
The Asperger people are targeted mainly on objects as work, hobbies, etc.,
and not on people.
They generally are not socialising without direct purpose
what is an important trait of non-Asperger people.
(They don't ask "How was the week-end?" just for socialising.
They only ask specific questions.)
Correct me, if this my impression of Asperger is wrong.
-- avs
http://www.vanstraatensoft.com
Andre van Straaten
: "Andrew Melka" <tme...@webtv.net> wrote in message
I don't think that Leif intention was to present Asperger as a disease
and leaving room for the false assumption, that some retarded Neanderthal
people left some genetical inherited traits in modern humans which make
them Tarzan-like.
I'm a layperson in regard to behavioral disorder and diseases, but I
understand, that there are many Asperger diagnozed people successfully
working in academics.
I became aware of that, as I read some off-topic postings in a
comp.ai.* newsgroup which stated that many mathematicians are considered
Asperger.
(They would be bad software engineers as this requires generally "excellent
verbal and interpersonal skills".)
If you have the time to go to http://www.paulerdos.com
you will have an example that some very worthful people are quite different
than the rest of us "normal" human beings.
I don't say anything about Paul Erdos, because I'm a layperson and you can
never judge only from a biography, but he is at least one example that
highly intelligent people differ also in behavior from the rest of the
"lower" academics (like me, no offense).
Let's now come to my point. Let's make a Gedankenexperiment.
Someone from outer space comes on earth. He/she/it is quite intelligent.
This being sees a typical peasant in a third world country who is illiterate
and observes him one day.
Then he observes an university professor (anywhere in the world) a
day long. This being would have problems to grasp that the both subjects
are the same genetic form of Homo sapiens sapiens.
Now, lets imagine what feels a child like Paul Erdos, which did multiply
3-digit numbers at the age of three, when it comes to Kindergarten.
We can understand that an alien from outer space might have problems in
categorizing people, but do we also understand the judgements of the child
which is hyper-intelligent?
I think Leif is speaking about a behavioral disorder which might be helpful
for some sort of intelligent people to be more productive, i.e. staying away
from ordinary people, but which is seen as a disease by the majority of
humanity.
Apart from the hypothesis that this behavior might be inherited from
Neanderthal people who had presumably a larger brain than we, is the
question:
Would our society have less prodigy scientists without Asperger or
related behavioral disorders?
This is an interesting question which puzzles me.
-- avs
http://www.vanstraatensoft.com
Leif Ekblad
> Did the Neanderthals in general have a different social structure, which
> favorized characters more relying on themselves than expecting help from
> a strong sociable community?
I don't know the answer to that.
> As far what I have read, Neanderthals seem to have been pretty the same
> as the Cro-Magnon in regard of group size, burials, art, music, etc.
>
> I ask this because only behavioral _genes_ are inherited and non-genetic
> behavior is always learned in every life from scratch again.
I think it's pretty clear that the bevioral genes of Asperger are inherited.
To some
extent, the inability to read body language is probably also some factor
that makes
socializing harder, but I still think the desire to be alone is something we
don't
develop from our environment or by choice. Rather this is something that's
in our
personality from the start.
> I see Asperger in this regard as a behavior to seek limited social contact
> only with other Asperger people.
There are not many other Asperger people unless you actively seek for them.
We
do seek some social contact with other people, but I think we socialize in a
different
way. That's probably also the reason we can easier socialize with other
Asperger
people.
> The Asperger people are targeted mainly on objects as work, hobbies, etc.,
> and not on people.
Yes, that's true, and it's part of our personality.
> They generally are not socialising without direct purpose
> what is an important trait of non-Asperger people.
Yes, that's true. I long had a hard time undertanding why people thought
parties
where such a big deal. I certainly didn't have a good time, and would have
prefered
to be on my own instead. Now I realize people have parties to socialize.
> (They don't ask "How was the week-end?" just for socialising.
> They only ask specific questions.)
Yes. You have a good understanding of this ;-)
> Correct me, if this my impression of Asperger is wrong.
No, it's correct.
Actually, from another discussion I got some more insight into this. ADHD,
which is
another "disorder" that often coexists with Asperger, was chacterized by
Thom Hartmann
as a hunter in a farmer society. This was because ADHD traits are what makes
a good hunter.
Someone else proposed that Asperger would be great for trackers. This would
also explain
why ADHD is much more frequent than Asperger, since a hunter society would
need lot
of hunters but only a few trackers. So, one theory might be that ADHD
represents the
Neanderthal hunters and Asperger represents the Neanderthal trackers.
-Leif
Leif Ekblad
> and leaving room for the false assumption, that some retarded Neanderthal
> people left some genetical inherited traits in modern humans which make
> them Tarzan-like.
You're right, that was definitely not the intention. We already had too much
of this type of thinking. The intention was to present us as useful in our
own and earlier societies, and explain why we are so different.
> I'm a layperson in regard to behavioral disorder and diseases, but I
> understand, that there are many Asperger diagnozed people successfully
> working in academics.
True. I have a masters of science in electronics myself.
> I became aware of that, as I read some off-topic postings in a
> comp.ai.* newsgroup which stated that many mathematicians are considered
> Asperger.
> (They would be bad software engineers as this requires generally
"excellent
> verbal and interpersonal skills".)
Not really. I think many of us can handle the issues involved in software
engineering. Although I believe that we do write programs in a different and
usually more efficient way than others. This also means it's harder for us
to participate in large software projects, as we often tend to think present
programs written by non-Aspergers are crap. At least this is my belief,
after beeing in the software business for 14 years. I certainly work much
better alone with projects, than with others. I can easily do the work of 3
non-Asperger programmers as well.
> If you have the time to go to http://www.paulerdos.com
> you will have an example that some very worthful people are quite
different
> than the rest of us "normal" human beings.
> I don't say anything about Paul Erdos, because I'm a layperson and you can
> never judge only from a biography, but he is at least one example that
> highly intelligent people differ also in behavior from the rest of the
> "lower" academics (like me, no offense).
I think many people with revolutionary ideas indeed had Asperger or ADHD,
but I can't prove it :(
> I think Leif is speaking about a behavioral disorder which might be
helpful
> for some sort of intelligent people to be more productive, i.e. staying
away
> from ordinary people, but which is seen as a disease by the majority of
> humanity.
Exactly. What is worrying me is that too many people with Asperger and ADHD
have to live outside of the society, because of todays schools. This will
not only affect their lives negatively, the world as a whole will loose a
lot of potential innovations.
> Apart from the hypothesis that this behavior might be inherited from
> Neanderthal people who had presumably a larger brain than we, is the
> question:
> Would our society have less prodigy scientists without Asperger or
> related behavioral disorders?
>
> This is an interesting question which puzzles me.
I'm pretty sure society would be radically different without us. Sadly, we
haven't got any recognition for this, only a diagnosis describing us as
disordered.
-Leif
pete
, one theory might be that ADHD
`represents the
`Neanderthal hunters and Asperger represents the Neanderthal trackers.
If they are genes from Hn, you would expect to see a geographic gradient
in their occurrance paralleling the distribution of Hn. Ie there
should be none in australian native populations, nearly none in
east asian, most in european....
--
==========================================================================
vin...@triumf.ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
Leif
> `represents the
> `Neanderthal hunters and Asperger represents the Neanderthal trackers.
>
> If they are genes from Hn, you would expect to see a geographic gradient
> in their occurrance paralleling the distribution of Hn. Ie there
> should be none in australian native populations, nearly none in
> east asian, most in european....
True, and there are no evidence that this is not the case. There are even
some evidence that east asians doesn't have AS or ADHD. If you look
for AS or ADHD information, you'll mostly find it in Europe, Middle East,
Australia, North and South-America. This are areas where native
Neanderthals
lived + areas where europeans have mass-emigrated.
-Leif
Neurocop
> > , one theory might be that ADHD
> > `represents the
> > `Neanderthal hunters and Asperger represents the Neanderthal trackers.
I have another hypothesis about Asperger Syndrome. This depends on the idea
of the "modular" human brain. The modular theory holds that specific
cognitive functions in the human brain are "modular" in organization. That
is, there are "circuit boards" for specific cognitive functions. This theory
has also been referred to as the "Swiss Army Knife" model of brain function.
These ideas are particularly well described in Steven Mithen's "The
Prehistory of the Mind."
It seems to me that Asperger patients may have a defect in the module(s)
that control language and social relationships, while sparing other modules
(such as those for understanding other physical and biological concepts).
Leif
No, there is no evidence for this at all. On the contrary, there are many
things
that actually "kills" this theory.
1) This would indeed be "deletorious" genes that should have disapeared long
ago.
2) How do you relate this to the frequent ADHD symptoms seen? Or is ADHD
also a brain-defect?
3) If body language was not present due to defects in the brain, why does
small children with AS indeed have a body language, which is seen as
provoking by normals?
4) Where does the clumpsy motor control come into play?
5) Why is this defect that's presumably caused by many different genes not
sorted out in evolution, with the good genes kept? Makes no sense to me.
6) How does this theory explain why we function, and solve problems in a
different way? Defects in executive functions couldn't really explain this,
especially not if the brain is modular. The very concept modular means
things are more or less independent.
Apart from that, I don't believe in the modular brain-theory either. The
brain cannot be
resembled with a machine or ordinary computer program. It's built as a
neural network. It's also evident that people with brain-damages can still
function, with other parts of the
brain taking over functions from the damaged parts. If you smash a module in
a computer program, the entire function fails and often the whole system.
This type of brain would of course be fatal to us.
-Leif
ejudy
may be like many fitting a million ghosts into a little bottle.
They are separate yet sorta layered---
Aren't there differences in the brain of ADHD? Husband and son
have it and they have unussual gifts with math, problem solving, memory
but they also exhibit impulse control problems as if the function of
filtering, which i believe takes place in the front of their brains,
doesn't catch what they imagine as quickly as folks without the problem.
Makes for outrageous acts and statements at moments. Dangerous around
highways....i think they physically act out more ideas (looks aggressive
sometimes).......
With ADHD children the parents must feedback feedback feedback to sort of
get
different functions to take the place of what most folks do easily.
They seem tuned out while in fact they are tuned to different stuff.
In a forest my son misses nothing. Or at school he picks up a different set
of information while most of the kids have cued into the teachers emotional
tone
which he may have missed.
>
>
Leif
OK, that I can agree with. What I cannot agree with is the notion that this
has
anything whatsever to do with defects in the brain. Besides, what exactly is
defect and what is normal? Why would social competence be higher messured
than logic reasoning and why would one set of body language be defect while
another is normal?
> Aren't there differences in the brain of ADHD?
There are differences, but who decides what's normal and what's a defect?
> Husband and son
> have it and they have unussual gifts with math, problem solving, memory
> but they also exhibit impulse control problems as if the function of
> filtering, which i believe takes place in the front of their brains,
> doesn't catch what they imagine as quickly as folks without the problem.
Of course, but that's PERSONAL differences and not defects in the brain.
Put it the other way: You might be defect because you cannot solve math
problems fast.
> Makes for outrageous acts and statements at moments. Dangerous around
> highways....i think they physically act out more ideas (looks aggressive
> sometimes).......
> With ADHD children the parents must feedback feedback feedback to sort of
> get
> different functions to take the place of what most folks do easily.
> They seem tuned out while in fact they are tuned to different stuff.
> In a forest my son misses nothing. Or at school he picks up a different
set
> of information while most of the kids have cued into the teachers
emotional
> tone
> which he may have missed.
Yes, since ADHD people where really not meant to function in our society,
rather
they're meant to be effective in a hunter-society. This doesn't make them
defect.
I don't even believe ANYBODY was made to function in a society like ours.
-Leif
pete
`I have another hypothesis about Asperger Syndrome. This depends on the idea
`of the "modular" human brain. The modular theory holds that specific
`cognitive functions in the human brain are "modular" in organization. That
`is, there are "circuit boards" for specific cognitive functions. This theory
`has also been referred to as the "Swiss Army Knife" model of brain function.
`These ideas are particularly well described in Steven Mithen's "The
`Prehistory of the Mind."
`It seems to me that Asperger patients may have a defect in the module(s)
`that control language and social relationships, while sparing other modules
`(such as those for understanding other physical and biological concepts).
This would make them sort of like the antithesis of what I recall might
be called William's or Williamson's Syndrome, where logic and math
are almost none-existant, but social and emotional skills are superb.
Perhaps revealing another module...
UnclJunior
larger brains (if not heads) than us?
Also,often people with autism have severve wheat and dairy allergies. I don't
think too many Neaderthals were farmers.
Leif Ekblad
> be called William's or Williamson's Syndrome, where logic and math
> are almost none-existant, but social and emotional skills are superb.
> Perhaps revealing another module...
Would that also make them disordered? What exactly would whose
people think if they where called brain-damaged? If people compared
their brain matter and found some places in the brain where smaller than
average, what would they think about that?
-Leif
Leif Ekblad
have
> larger brains (if not heads) than us?
Yes, 1700cc compared to 1500cc.
> Also,often people with autism have severve wheat and dairy allergies. I
don't
> think too many Neaderthals were farmers.
That's right. Neanderthals where almost entirely carnevorious. The allergy
theory
is intresting. I think I'll test it on a AS / ADHD related discussion forum.
Thanks!
Leif
Neurocop
"ejudy" <eju...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
news:3AFC...@MailAndNews.com...
> may be like many fitting a million ghosts into a little bottle.
> They are separate yet sorta layered---
I also think that Leif missed my point. I was being every so humble about my
suggestion that autistic (including AS) patients may have brain
"modulopathy." Actually I think it is most likely that this explains the
pathology extremely well. I mentioned the idea on this NG because: 1) I like
to tug on people's chains; and 2) So far as I know, this hypothesis is novel
(i.e. hasn't been published elsewhere), and it makes a lot of sense.
However, I have many other things to occupy my time, so I will take
satisfaction in throwing out the idea on this NG. Have fun with it.
Leif Ekblad
> > may be like many fitting a million ghosts into a little bottle.
> > They are separate yet sorta layered---
>
> I also think that Leif missed my point. I was being every so humble about
my
> suggestion that autistic (including AS) patients may have brain
> "modulopathy." Actually I think it is most likely that this explains the
> pathology extremely well. I mentioned the idea on this NG because: 1) I
like
> to tug on people's chains; and 2) So far as I know, this hypothesis is
novel
> (i.e. hasn't been published elsewhere), and it makes a lot of sense.
Actually, it would be nice if you ASKED us first about what we think about
such a theory. If you didn't know it, all theories that are created without
asking people with AS, Autism or ADHD about if this sounds right to them,
also have proved to be INCREDIBLY wrong. The "bad parenting" theory has
proved to be INCREDIBLY wrong, and the brain-deficit theory will be proved
to be INCREDIBLY wrong as well. I guess your theory also fits prety well
with the brain-deficit theories currently presented. As for the Neanderthal
theory, I have support for this theory among people with AS and ADHD. In
fact, the theory was founded after corresponding for a long time with other
people with AS and ADHD and LISTENING to their views and thoughts about the
causes. Will you "normals" ever listen to what we think?
If I'm wrong about your theory suggesting brain-defects, you're welcome to
present it further, otherwise I have no interest in it whatsoever.
-Leif
Leif Ekblad
> > may be like many fitting a million ghosts into a little bottle.
> > They are separate yet sorta layered---
>
> I also think that Leif missed my point. I was being every so humble about
my
> suggestion that autistic (including AS) patients may have brain
> "modulopathy." Actually I think it is most likely that this explains the
> pathology extremely well. I mentioned the idea on this NG because: 1) I
like
> to tug on people's chains; and 2) So far as I know, this hypothesis is
novel
> (i.e. hasn't been published elsewhere), and it makes a lot of sense.
Let me try to explain a little better why your theory doesn't hold.
The primary problem with AS is NOT beeing social, it's beeing social
with non-AS people. How do I know this? Since I live in a family with
only AS people, and we have no social problems among ourselves. Next,
why can't we be social with non-AS people? Since we can't understand
each others facial expressions and other body language. To not provoke
normals, we early learn not to use body-language at all. This makes us look
"cold". This also holds to some extent to ADHD, since people with ADHD
also have problems with body-language. I guess you don't reflect very much
over this, since reading / using body language mostly can be considered as
an automatic process, but we must do this manually. This is the origin of
the "social problems" described in the diagnosis. Therefore it's not very
productive to consider our brains as defective in the social area.
-Leif
ejudy
Hey! I take enormous offence at being called a "normal"!!
Even if i have no modular defects in any sense of the term
i still feel thats a pretty harsh label. "Normal" isn't easy
you know. Its INCREDIBLY insensitive to label me (for one)
with this term. In fact, i bet if given enough time and maybe a whole
bunch of different brain tests by some brilliant brain anatomist or
maybe a team of researchers someone somewhere probably could come
up with at least a slight abnormal function that might have been
hidden from view or perhaps masked by alternate modular rescue
functions......
I don't believe i heard anyone ask how i felt about this label.
And what goes into this "normality"? Perhaps it simply means i have no
neandertal genes........but at least you could ask first if do or don't.
I am bushman!
And i am proud.
So be careful with that label, leif.
ejudy
Leif Ekblad
That's the term usually used for non-Asperger people, but
I don't think many know what it means, therefore I used the
term "normal" instead.
I agree fully with you about the term normal beeing bad, but
the society and researchers is using it to label all kinds of
people with personal differencies as beeing in some sense
defect
Neurocop
"Leif Ekblad" <le...@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:9d0h6h$g5pgg$1...@ID-78319.news.dfncis.de...
> Actually, it would be nice if you ASKED us first about what we think about
> such a theory. If you didn't know it, all theories that are created
without
> asking people with AS, Autism or ADHD about if this sounds right to them,
> also have proved to be INCREDIBLY wrong.
Leif, I guess that your allegedly having AS makes you also unaware of just
how arrogant and unscientific your statement (the one excerpted just above)
sounds to most "normal" people...You say, essentially, that if any theory
about AS that doesn't "sound right" to you is not only wrong, but
"incredibly wrong."
> I guess your theory also fits prety well
> with the brain-deficit theories currently presented.
I don't know...frankly it is a new hypothesis based on the general
hypothesis of the modular architecture of the brain and mind. In describing
AS (and also autism in general) as "modulopathies" [remember, Neurocop was
the first to coin that word], the condition does result from a
"brain-deficit." I am sorry if that definition offends you. The affected
module is defective in that it doesn't function properly in the prevailing
Hssc world. Your point that it may have had a useful function in some prior
world is intriguing. Most people with AS and almost all people with Global
Developmental Disorder (autism) are incredibly impaired and dysfunctional in
human society. Some AS people do make considerable contributions to society
(I'm sure you are aware of Temple Grande) but most wind up in mental
institutions or live on the margins of modern society. This, to me, is very
sad.But it is true.
>Will you "normals" ever listen to what we think?
Certainly. But only if you can engage in some sort of reasonable dialogue.
With all due respect to you, I must ask you a simple question. Would you be
willing to be convinced by what we "normals" consider to be logical and
scientific argument? Would you be willing to admit that perhaps your litmus
test for truth about AS (i.e. that it must "seem right" to you) is
fallible...that is to say that a "true" hypothesis might seem "not right" to
you?
If you cannot admit that, then it is I who must beg out of this argument
with you, though you will still retain my sincerest sympathy.
> If I'm wrong about your theory suggesting brain-defects, you're welcome to
> present it further, otherwise I have no interest in it whatsoever.
Nick Capozzoli, MD
>
>
>
Leif Ekblad
about
> > such a theory. If you didn't know it, all theories that are created
> without
> > asking people with AS, Autism or ADHD about if this sounds right to
them,
> > also have proved to be INCREDIBLY wrong.
>
> Leif, I guess that your allegedly having AS makes you also unaware of just
> how arrogant and unscientific your statement (the one excerpted just
above)
> sounds to most "normal" people...You say, essentially, that if any theory
> about AS that doesn't "sound right" to you is not only wrong, but
> "incredibly wrong."
Not only to me, but to the majority of the people that has AS. None of
them can identify with the hypostesis that suggest they would be
brain-damaged.
And, in fact, none with zero logical reasoning but large social abilities
would be
able to identify with that either. Besides, why don't you also come with a
theory
about those that suggests they are brain-damaged? Actually, if you continue,
you'd come to the conclusion that EVERYBODY is brain-damaged in some way.
> > I guess your theory also fits prety well
> > with the brain-deficit theories currently presented.
>
> I don't know...frankly it is a new hypothesis based on the general
> hypothesis of the modular architecture of the brain and mind. In
describing
> AS (and also autism in general) as "modulopathies" [remember, Neurocop was
> the first to coin that word], the condition does result from a
> "brain-deficit." I am sorry if that definition offends you. The affected
> module is defective in that it doesn't function properly in the prevailing
> Hssc world. Your point that it may have had a useful function in some
prior
> world is intriguing. Most people with AS and almost all people with Global
> Developmental Disorder (autism) are incredibly impaired and dysfunctional
in
> human society. Some AS people do make considerable contributions to
society
> (I'm sure you are aware of Temple Grande) but most wind up in mental
> institutions or live on the margins of modern society. This, to me, is
very
> sad.But it is true.
You focus too much on brain-theories, that's very speculative. If you'd
read my other answer more carefully, you should have realized that it's not
related to social mal-function, but to social problems with the majority of
the
humans living today. Apperently you don't want to listen to those arguments,
since you already have concluded we are dysfunctional.
> >Will you "normals" ever listen to what we think?
>
> Certainly. But only if you can engage in some sort of reasonable dialogue.
If you could present proofs that can justify your theory, and that's
consistent
with the knowledge I have from discussing with AS and ADHD people (or
indeed by talking to them yourself), I'd be happy to have a dialogue. You've
definetely failed to do this.
> With all due respect to you, I must ask you a simple question. Would you
be
> willing to be convinced by what we "normals" consider to be logical and
> scientific argument?
Of course, if you verify them against what many people think. You cannot
just ignore our thoughts about body-language and good social relations
between
ourselves. If your theory is able to explain a lot of our pecularities in a
consistent
way, I'd be happy to listen to you.
> Would you be willing to admit that perhaps your litmus
> test for truth about AS (i.e. that it must "seem right" to you) is
> fallible...that is to say that a "true" hypothesis might seem "not right"
to
> you?
I hardly think this could be the case. At least not if you can't put
substantial
evidence behind it.
> If you cannot admit that, then it is I who must beg out of this argument
> with you, though you will still retain my sincerest sympathy.
Actually, we don't need sympathy, we need understanding.
-Leif
Alan Pollock
different things than non AS and ADHD people do? How about slapstick, based as
it is on gesture and body language? Nex
Leif
> different things than non AS and ADHD people do?
This is a rather complex issue, and I can't give you a definite answer on
it. My own
personal belief is that we do have different humor. I frequently cannot find
things
that NT people think is humorous very amusing at all. I also sometimes find
things
that nobody else finds amusing very amusing, but won't express it since it
would be
considered "weird". On the other hand, people's humor does vary, and if this
is part
of the natural variation or not is hard to tell without asking more people.
> How about slapstick, based as
> it is on gesture and body language?
I had to look it up in a dictonary (I'm not an native english speaker).
I don't particulary like that. Maybe because I can't really appreciate it.
Of course you also must remember that our general interest are smaller, and
there might be some people with special insterests in this area, that like
it. I
have a tendency to focus on a few interests at a time. Right now it's the
Neanderthal-theory. This can sometimes be a problem, but I mostly consider
it as a strength.
-Leif
David Timpe
"Leif Ekblad" <le...@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:9d02rj$fsumm$1...@ID-78319.news.dfncis.de...
| > This would make them sort of like the antithesis of what I recall might
| > be called William's or Williamson's Syndrome, where logic and math
| > are almost none-existant, but social and emotional skills are superb.
| > Perhaps revealing another module...
|
| Would that also make them disordered? What exactly would whose
| people think if they where called brain-damaged?
They are, and many of them object to the categorization (they're
hyper-social, after all). Music is another area where they show great
aptitude, and they dislike loud noises intensely. 60 Minutes did a piece on
them a couple of years back, featuring a camp for Williams kids (a lot of
happy campers). If you can get US television, they do a lot of reruns over
summer and maybe they'll show it again. In the case of Williams, there is a
known chromosomal abnormality (I forget what it is, but I think a part of
one is missing).
If people compared
| their brain matter and found some places in the brain where smaller than
| average, what would they think about that?
They have, and on 60 Minutes they seemed to take that and the chromosomal
variance as just a part of their identity, as long as nobody else makes an
issue out of it.
--
Dave Timpe
dtimpe at new dot rr dot com