ST Invades?
Ghent
Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
(25,000 were made in 30 years).
Jedi Nobody
theye destroyed one single destroyer!
Ghent <Owen....@btinternet.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
7k8nuj$kk5$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
Kynes
> I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked the
> Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> (25,000 were made in 30 years).
Agreed. A Federation v. Empire war is *unwinnable* for the Federation, because with
their primitive warp drive propulsion, they can never occupy our galaxy, even if
our weapons weren't billions of times more powerful -- which they are.
--
-Kynes
"If all else fails, simply base your entire argument on the NAMES of the weapons."
- The Trekkie's Creed
[NG FAQ: http://nccu1.acc.nccu.edu/~kynes/faq.txt]
Elim Garak
>
> I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked the
> Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> (25,000 were made in 30 years).
You are right, unless they dug out some of the more interesting tech from their closets. There is a lot of research going on in that area. Artificial
wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream, and enhanced warp are only some of the areas.
Elim Garak
>
> Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
> theye destroyed one single destroyer!
None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times
their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just not so
- 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
Aron Kerkhof
<elim...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Jedi Nobody wrote:
>>
>> Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
>> theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>
>None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times
>their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships.
Oh really. I would just LOVE to see your calculations where ST ships
can take 10 times their number of SW ships, assuming that the Star
Wars ships are 1200 times more powerful than ST ships. And suffer
less than 10% casualties, to boot. I hope you are joking.
>Which is just not so - 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
Yeah, you better hope the Imperial Star Destroyers only attack with
X-Wing torpedoes. (sarcasm)
aronk@_spam_galactec.com
to reply, remove the "_spam_" from address
a.s.v.s FAQ: http://nccu1.acc.nccu.edu/~kynes/faq.txt
Kynes
And there are races in our galaxy which can move to any point instantaneously with
*no* travel time. You don't see us claiming ISDs can do that, do you?
See the FAQ. Tech advancement through time is disallowed.
Kynes
> Jedi Nobody wrote:
> >
> > Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
> > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>
> None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp drive -
> in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times
> their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that
> - 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
A one dimensional environment? Wow, that's *just* like space.
And do you care to explain how these conclusions were reached?
Sean Geoghegan
that Hyperspeed was just the speed of light, which leaves empire speeds to
be a fraction of federation speeds. (warp nine is the speed of light to the
power of 9). So Id like to see the empire reach us.
Sean Geoghegan
Elim Garak wrote in message <376816D1...@netscape.net>...
>Jedi Nobody wrote:
>>
>> Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed
before
>> theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>
>None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp
drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take
about 10 times
>their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's
assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships.
Which is just not so
>- 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
If they were in a one dimensional environment they would prbably crash into
each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
Kynes
You are badly misinformed. A Class 0.5 hyperdrive like the one the MF
carries is, at minimum, 127 lightyears per hour. And I don't know where
you're getting that warp speed nonsense from.
--
-Kynes
"This Timothy Jones guy is a real nutcase, eh?"
-- Mike Wong
[NG FAQ: http://nccu1.acc.nccu.edu/~kynes/faq.txt]
Sean Geoghegan
Kynes wrote in message ...
>Sean Geoghegan <sea...@space.net.au> wrote in message
news:92960414...@srv1.space.net.au...
>> Since when is hyperspeed faster than warpspeed anyway. I always thought
>> that Hyperspeed was just the speed of light, which leaves empire speeds
to
>> be a fraction of federation speeds. (warp nine is the speed of light to
the
>> power of 9). So Id like to see the empire reach us.
>
>You are badly misinformed. A Class 0.5 hyperdrive like the one the MF
>carries is, at minimum, 127 lightyears per hour.
At least warp drive is considered possible by some physicists, all though
highly improbable because of the vast amounts of energy required, But a
minimum speed of 127 light years per hour is bloody ridiculous and seems
purely arbritary to me. "ah lets pick a big number. 127 that will do."
SW chooses to ignore reality. Lets remember that it is a Galaxy far far
away, not a in a different universe with a different set of physical laws.
And I don't know where
>you're getting that warp speed nonsense from.
Sorry I mixed up my exponentials.
warp 9 is 1516 times c.
Robert Williams
Jedi Nobody wrote in message <7k8qf9$iij$1...@enterprise.cistron.nl>...
>Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
>theye destroyed one single destroyer!
The federation would probably lose at least 2 dozen starships, before any star
destroyers went up, assuming that the federation had vast numerical superiority
in a battle. If they where fighting a group of more than 10 SD's, then they
wouldn't stand a chance against such massed firepower. Smaller vessels, like
the federations attack fighters, and maybe even a defiant or two, might get
through, and into the imperial fleet, but they would be finished of by
anti-fighter cannons, and TIE fighters.
Rob
>
>Ghent <Owen....@btinternet.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
>7k8nuj$kk5$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
Elim Garak
>
> > > Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
> > > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
> >
> > in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times
> > their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that
> > SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just not so
> > - 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
>
>
> And do you care to explain how these conclusions were reached?
I have posted a zipped paper on this. Some time ago, by accident, but it is there. Under Re:ST vs. SW math model.
Elim Garak
>
> > > I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked the
> > > Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> > > cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> > > crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> > > (25,000 were made in 30 years).
> >
> > closets. There is a lot of research going on in that area. Artificial
> > wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream, and enhanced warp are only some of the areas.
>
> And there are races in our galaxy which can move to any point instantaneously with
> *no* travel time. You don't see us claiming ISDs can do that, do you?
Nope - simply because you can't.
> See the FAQ. Tech advancement through time is disallowed.
Time travel advancement in that case. ;) Relativity certainly can do that - it moved from Alpha quadrant to Delta in seconds.
Jonathan Boyd
<sea...@space.net.au> wrote:
> Is there any physics to back this up in any SW canon any where?
It's in the Thrawn trilogy.
> At least warp drive is considered possible by some physicists, all though
> highly improbable because of the vast amounts of energy required, But a
Actually, just 1g of negative matter.
> minimum speed of 127 light years per hour is bloody ridiculous and seems
> purely arbritary to me. "ah lets pick a big number. 127 that will do."
> SW chooses to ignore reality. Lets remember that it is a Galaxy far far
> away, not a in a different universe with a different set of physical laws.
But we assume that it is the same universe, with the same physical
constants, otherwise there is no basis for comparison.
--
Jonathan
(with reference to blasters and phasers)
JB : "Ah, the typical Robert Williams argument. Phasers are different
technology. This has been proved many times."
RW : "It has been disproved many times. Once again, your short time of
being on this newsgroup shows."
Elim Garak
>
> >> Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed
> >> before
> >> theye destroyed one single destroyer!
> >
> >None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp
> >drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take
> >about 10 times
> >their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's
> >assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships.
> >Which is just not so
> >- 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
>
> each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
> able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
The thing is that ST ships don't want to get close to the SW ships. And since they have superior sublight speed they manage to do that quite nicely. Though my
algorithm could use some work - if I manage to fix it I think I can lower the ST casualties by a few ships at least. Besides, this is only an approximation of
a 3d environment - they aren't really in one dimension. A distance of zero between the two forces simply means that the two groups of ships are perfectly
mixed.
Aron Kerkhof
<elim...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Kynes wrote:
>>
>> > > Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
>> > > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>> >
>> > None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp drive -
>> > in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times
>> > their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that
>> > SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just not so
>> > - 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
>>
>> A one dimensional environment? Wow, that's *just* like space.
>>
>> And do you care to explain how these conclusions were reached?
>
>I have posted a zipped paper on this. Some time ago, by accident, but it is there. Under Re:ST vs. SW math model.
Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did. Why not repost it?
Aron Kerkhof
<sea...@space.net.au> wrote:
>
>Elim Garak wrote in message <376816D1...@netscape.net>...
>>Jedi Nobody wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed
>before
>>> theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>>
>>None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp
>drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take
>about 10 times
>>their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's
>assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships.
>Which is just not so
>>- 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
>
>If they were in a one dimensional environment they would prbably crash into
>each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
>able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
Ok, I can buy that, but what about only 10% casualties for the Feds?
I simply have to see Elim's calcs.
Aron Kerkhof
<sea...@space.net.au> wrote:
>Since when is hyperspeed faster than warpspeed anyway. I always thought
>that Hyperspeed was just the speed of light, which leaves empire speeds to
>be a fraction of federation speeds. (warp nine is the speed of light to the
>power of 9). So Id like to see the empire reach us.
I love TPM. Absolute canon proof of fantastic superluminal speeds.
Note the following sequence of events:
1. Queen Amidala's ship lands on Tatooine.
2. Qui-Gon, Jar-Jar, Padme, and R2-D2 venture into Mos Espa in search
of replacement parts for their ship, where they meet Watto, Anakin,
and Sebulba. The sandstorm begins, and Anakin invites them to his
home.
3. Queen Amidala receives the forged transmission from Sio Bibble,
pleading her to communicate with him (and thus reveal her location).
4. Anakin brings his new friends home and introduces everyone. They
have dinner, which indicates that it is now late in the day. Anakin
tells them that he can help them leave the planet by winning the
podrace which is on *"the day after tomorrow."*
5. Darth Sidious instructs Darth Maul to go to Tatooine. Night has
already fallen on Tatooine.
6. The next morning, Anakin begins work on his podracer and Qui-Gon
arranges the wager with Watto.
7. That night, Darth Maul lands on Tatooine.
8. The next morning, Anakin wins the podrace.
What does all of this mean? It means that it takes roughly one day to
travel from Coruscant to Tatooine. If we assume a very short distance
between Tatooine and Coruscant (say, 30,000 light years, which is very
conservative considering Tatooine is supposed to be on the edge of the
galaxy and Coruscant is near the core), then this implies average
speeds in excess of ten million times the speed of light.
Physics cannot help us in warp or hyperspace, as our sciences proves
both to be impossible, far beyond our understanding. But if we take
the movies as documentary evidence, (and we do) then Darth Maul's
interceptor can acheive the incredible by Trek standards 10 million
times c velocity.
Sean Geoghegan
Jonathan Boyd wrote in message <7kaocv$s0u$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>In article <92961393...@srv1.space.net.au> , "Sean Geoghegan"
><sea...@space.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Is there any physics to back this up in any SW canon any where?
>
>It's in the Thrawn trilogy.
>> At least warp drive is considered possible by some physicists, all though
>> highly improbable because of the vast amounts of energy required, But a
>
>Actually, just 1g of negative matter.
Will get you nowhere without 1g of positive matter which will b anihilated
and then you are left with no energy source. So I think more than 1g of ANTI
matter is needed. And then there is the energy required to contain the
antimatter. anyway all things considered a lot of energy is required for
warp speed.
>> minimum speed of 127 light years per hour is bloody ridiculous and seems
>> purely arbritary to me. "ah lets pick a big number. 127 that will do."
>> SW chooses to ignore reality. Lets remember that it is a Galaxy far far
>> away, not a in a different universe with a different set of physical
laws.
>
>But we assume that it is the same universe, with the same physical
>constants, otherwise there is no basis for comparison.
Exactly my point. Yet Sw chooses to ignore these physical constants or
doesn't explain what its tech does to over come them.
Sean Geoghegan
PS What is the recommended reading order for the SW books.
Ghent
Kynes
>
> Kynes wrote in message ...
> >Sean Geoghegan <sea...@space.net.au> wrote in message
> news:92960414...@srv1.space.net.au...
> >> that Hyperspeed was just the speed of light, which leaves empire speeds
> to
> >> be a fraction of federation speeds. (warp nine is the speed of light to
> the
> >> power of 9). So Id like to see the empire reach us.
> >
> >carries is, at minimum, 127 lightyears per hour.
>
> highly improbable because of the vast amounts of energy required, But a
> purely arbritary to me. "ah lets pick a big number. 127 that will do."
> SW chooses to ignore reality. Lets remember that it is a Galaxy far far
> away, not a in a different universe with a different set of physical laws.
Oh, look, a reincarnation of the "that's just way too fast" argument. Well,
sorry; it's official and part of the SW universe, so deal with it.
--
Kynes
> Kynes wrote:
> >
> > > > I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked the
> > > > Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> > > > cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> > > > crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> > > > (25,000 were made in 30 years).
> > >
> > > You are right, unless they dug out some of the more interesting tech from their
> > > closets. There is a lot of research going on in that area. Artificial
> > > wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream, and enhanced warp are only some of the areas.
> >
> > And there are races in our galaxy which can move to any point instantaneously with
> > *no* travel time. You don't see us claiming ISDs can do that, do you?
>
> Nope - simply because you can't.
And the Trek side cannot utilize artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream
or enhanced warp. Until you can, they're worthless in an argument, and you're stuck
with a laughable top speed of a few thousand c.
> > See the FAQ. Tech advancement through time is disallowed.
>
> Time travel advancement in that case. ;) Relativity certainly can do that
> - it moved from Alpha quadrant to Delta in seconds.
Temporal arguments are disallowed by the FAQ.
Kynes
> Sean Geoghegan wrote:
> >
> > >> Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed
> > >> before
> > >> theye destroyed one single destroyer!
> > >
> > >None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp
> > >drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take
> > >about 10 times
> > >their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's
> > >assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships.
> > >Which is just not so
> > >- 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
> >
> > If they were in a one dimensional environment they would prbably crash into
> > each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
> > able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
>
> And since they have superior sublight speed they manage to do that quite nicely.
Who wants to bet me $100 that Elim did *not* factor in acceleration, which on the
E-D is 10km/s^2 and on an ISD is 30km/s^2? We have *superior* sublight maneuvering
speed.
Besides, the ST ships would have to sit at over 4.7E7 km to be out of range of our
weapons. I imagine he didn't factor *that* in either.
Strowbridge
>
> Ghent <Owen....@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:7k8nuj$kk5$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
> > Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> > cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> > crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> > (25,000 were made in 30 years).
>
> their primitive warp drive propulsion, they can never occupy our galaxy, even if
> our weapons weren't billions of times more powerful -- which they are.
Cool new Idea. Attack each planet in the Federation in alphabetical
order. This way the Federation could easily figure out which planet
would be attacked next, but it would take so long to get there they
wouldn't be in time for Operation BDZ to be complete. They also would
not skip a planet in order to defend a more important one latter in the
list.
This would keep the Federation Fleet in constant motion and would reduce
morale to the point were they would become an ineffective fighting
force.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> Ghent wrote:
> >
> > I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked the
> > Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> > cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> > crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> > (25,000 were made in 30 years).
>
> There is a lot of research going on in that area. Artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum
> slipstream, and enhanced warp are only some of the areas.
None of which have been proven successful, and therefore none can be
used here.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> Jedi Nobody wrote:
> >
> > Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
> > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>
> None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp drive - in a
> 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times their
> number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that SW
> ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just not so - 1
> kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
C.S.Strowbridge
Elim Garak
> >theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>
> destroyers went up, assuming that the federation had vast numerical superiority
> in a battle.
Actually, according to my calcs, in a battle of 200 ST ships vs. 2000 SW ships, only about 10 ships will be lost before they get into range. You will be
pleased to know that I used your over inflated estimates for the SW range - 32 million km, or something like that.
> If they where fighting a group of more than 10 SD's, then they
> wouldn't stand a chance against such massed firepower. Smaller vessels, like
> the federations attack fighters, and maybe even a defiant or two, might get
> through, and into the imperial fleet, but they would be finished of by
> anti-fighter cannons, and TIE fighters.
LOL. The problem is that their accuracy is approaching zero at such ranges.
Elim Garak
>
> >>None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp
> >>drive - in a 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take
> >>about 10 times
> >>their number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's
> >>assuming that SW ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships.
> >>Which is just not so
> >>- 1 kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
> >
> >each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
> >able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
>
> I simply have to see Elim's calcs.
I can explain it to you right now, though some hand waving will be involved. Basically it all comes down to that ST ships rarely miss using their standard
phasers and photons (and they certainly wouldn't with those slow and lumbering ISDs), and that SW ships often miss, which is connected to their slow weapon
speed. I used the formula 4000/d for the accuracy of the SW ships (where 4000 is the speed of the TL bolt (in meters)- overestimated, I might add), and d is
the distance to the target. I think it is accurate - generous even. So at maximum ST range of 300,000 km the probability of an ISD hitting an ST ship is
0.0133%. The probability of the ST ship hitting the SW one is still 1. I used the same formula for ST ship accuracy calculations, only I skewed it to the SW
side by saying that at distances larger than 300,000 km the accuracy is zero. At distances less than 4 km the accuracy of SW weapons is also 1, of course.
Elim Garak
>
> Ang-Ti Monks can.
What is their maximum range? Carrying capacity? How much does it take out of them? How much do they have to prepair for this? And finally where the hell are
they?
Elim Garak
>
> > > And there are races in our galaxy which can move to any point instantaneously with
> > > *no* travel time. You don't see us claiming ISDs can do that, do you?
> >
> > Nope - simply because you can't.
>
> And the Trek side cannot utilize artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream
> or enhanced warp.
Of course they can use them! They just can't create them - yet.
> Until you can, they're worthless in an argument, and you're stuck
> with a laughable top speed of a few thousand c.
A bit more, but yes.
> > > See the FAQ. Tech advancement through time is disallowed.
> >
> > Time travel advancement in that case. ;) Relativity certainly can do that
> > - it moved from Alpha quadrant to Delta in seconds.
>
> Temporal arguments are disallowed by the FAQ.
Quote?
Kynes
Aside from the laughable prospect of perfect accuracy, you have also assumed that the ISD
has only one weapon. Nice going. If this is for a class, I sincerely hope your professor
picks up on this.
--
-Kynes
"This Timothy Jones guy is a real nutcase, eh?"
-- Mike Wong
[NG FAQ: http://nccu1.acc.nccu.edu/~kynes/faq.html]
Kynes
No max range. No max carrying capacity, other than the size of the ship. It
does not take an unusual amount of energy. Preparation is nil -- just hit the
switch and go. And they're located near Exocron in our galaxy.
Kynes
> Aron Kerkhof wrote:
> >
> > >> A one dimensional environment? Wow, that's *just* like space.
> > >>
> > >> And do you care to explain how these conclusions were reached?
> > >
> > >I have posted a zipped paper on this. Some time ago, by accident, but it is there. Under Re:ST vs. SW math model.
> >
> > Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did.
>
> that there weren't any glaring errors. :P Probably was wrong, but here it is
> anyway.
You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring errors?" Come on,
Elim. Stop wasting our time.
Elim Garak
>
> > > If they were in a one dimensional environment they would prbably crash into
> > > each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
> > > able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
> >
> > And since they have superior sublight speed they manage to do that quite nicely.
>
> Who wants to bet me $100 that Elim did *not* factor in acceleration, which on the
> E-D is 10km/s^2 and on an ISD is 30km/s^2? We have *superior* sublight maneuvering
> speed.
You are right, forgot all about it. Also, where exactly does it say that the maximum sublight acceleration for the E-D is 10 km/s^2? And finally, other ships
have superior sublight drives - other very old ships. I didn't say specifically which ship is used in the ST side as a baseline.
> Besides, the ST ships would have to sit at over 4.7E7 km to be out of range of our
> weapons. I imagine he didn't factor *that* in either.
Nope, I did - though they wouldn't have to sit there. Since their accuracy is atrocious, SW weapons are not that dangerous at large ranges. It is not 4.7e7,
but only 32.5 million km, though. Got it from the calcs from the technical journal and super laser range vs. TL range.
Look, dude, why don't you stop guessing and actually read the paper, instead of shouting about things you don't even understand?
Kynes
> Kynes wrote:
> >
> > > > And there are races in our galaxy which can move to any point instantaneously with
> > > > *no* travel time. You don't see us claiming ISDs can do that, do you?
> > >
> > > Nope - simply because you can't.
> >
> > And the Trek side cannot utilize artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream
> > or enhanced warp.
>
> Of course they can use them! They just can't create them - yet.
Show me one ship which regularly uses this crap to get around. There ISN'T ONE.
> > > > See the FAQ. Tech advancement through time is disallowed.
> > >
> > > Time travel advancement in that case. ;) Relativity certainly can do that
> > > - it moved from Alpha quadrant to Delta in seconds.
> >
> > Temporal arguments are disallowed by the FAQ.
>
> Quote?
From the FAQ:
"Conversely, the Pro-ST side is not allowed to state that technology seen in previous
episodes will be more advance than what we saw."
In other words, you can't say the Feds will have access to technology that they
don't have access to now.
Kynes
> Kynes wrote:
> >
> > > > If they were in a one dimensional environment they would prbably crash into
> > > > each other and be destroyed by the explosion. Because thay would not be
> > > > able to move side ways to dodge each other as sideways wouldn't exist.
> > >
> > > The thing is that ST ships don't want to get close to the SW ships.
> > > And since they have superior sublight speed they manage to do that quite nicely.
> >
> > Who wants to bet me $100 that Elim did *not* factor in acceleration, which on the
> > E-D is 10km/s^2 and on an ISD is 30km/s^2? We have *superior* sublight maneuvering
> > speed.
>
> You are right, forgot all about it. Also, where exactly does it say that the
> maximum sublight acceleration for the E-D is 10 km/s^2?
The TNG TM.
> And finally, other ships
> have superior sublight drives - other very old ships. I didn't say specifically which
> ship is used in the ST side as a baseline.
Hmm. Okay, true, you didn't.
> > Besides, the ST ships would have to sit at over 4.7E7 km to be out of range of our
> > weapons. I imagine he didn't factor *that* in either.
>
> Nope, I did - though they wouldn't have to sit there. Since their accuracy is
> atrocious, SW weapons are not that dangerous at large ranges.
I have a real problem with the way you're figuring accuracy. Did you do any research
on *actual* long-range weapons and see what their accuracy is?
> It is not 4.7e7,
> but only 32.5 million km, though. Got it from the calcs from the technical journal and
> super laser range vs. TL range.
Oh, right.
> Look, dude, why don't you stop guessing and actually read the paper, instead of
> shouting about things you don't even understand?
At the time I wrote this, there was no paper to comment on.
Another problem: you've assumed that a SW ship, firing with "perfect accuracy," can
destroy 30 ST ships per second. I assume that means every shot connects. I hate to
break it to you, Elim, but the number is *much* higher than that; even a point-defense
turbolaser cannon on an ISD would destroy a Federation ship. Increase it to 200.
And, given that Federation phasers are only equivalent to about 30PW laser cannons
and that ISDs and other Imperial capital ships have shields which can resist their
weapons which are over 1E28 joules per shot, I think 0.05 SW ships per second is way
too high. The number should be at *least* as low as 0.000000000000003, and that's
assuming no recharge on the Imperial shields and that a single heavy turbolaser can
take down the shields of an ISD.
Jedi Anger
> Kynes wrote:
> >
> > > > I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked
the
> > > > Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years
(I think) to
> > > > cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they
have even
> > > > crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star
destroyers
> > > > (25,000 were made in 30 years).
> > >
> > > You are right, unless they dug out some of the more interesting
tech from their
> > > closets. There is a lot of research going on in that area.
Artificial
> > > wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream, and enhanced warp are
only some of the areas.
> >
instantaneously with
> > *no* travel time. You don't see us claiming ISDs can do that, do you?
>
> Nope - simply because you can't.
>
The Emperor could. And he could take a fleet of ships with him if he
wanted to.
Jedi Anger
know that there's a 50 K file attached before downloading it.
Jedi Anger
news:3769574...@home.com...
> Elim Garak wrote:
> >
> > Jedi Nobody wrote:
> > >
destroyed before
> > > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
> >
drive - in a
> > 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10
times their
> > number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's
assuming that SW
> > ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just
not so - 1
> > kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
>
> place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more
powerful.
>
Stowbridge, can you please provide the quotes?
> C.S.Strowbridge
Robert Williams
Elim Garak wrote in message <3769749E...@netscape.net>...
>> >theye destroyed one single destroyer!
>>
star
>> destroyers went up, assuming that the federation had vast numerical
superiority
>> in a battle.
>
>Actually, according to my calcs,
Which are bollox, and count for nothing.
Rob
Elim Garak
>
> > > I was think, say the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians attacked the
> > > Empire, how would the do any damage? It takes voyager 72 years (I think) to
> > > cross the MIlk Way and thats on a direct course. By the time they have even
> > > crossed the Galaxy the Empire could have built thousand of star destroyers
> > > (25,000 were made in 30 years).
> >
> > You are right, unless they dug out some of the more interesting tech from their closets.
> > There is a lot of research going on in that area. Artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum
> > slipstream, and enhanced warp are only some of the areas.
>
> used here.
Transwarp works very well, as does enhanced warp and quantum slipstream. QS especially, since all that is needed are the designs for the engine - which Voyager
has - and some special systems - which Starfleet will have.
Elim Garak
>
> > > Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
> > > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
> >
> > 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times their
> > number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that SW
> > ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just not so - 1
> > kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
>
> Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
> place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
I used the Technical Journals - the same place where you people got the data for the maximum range of the TLs. However, it is irrelevant - when the firepower
of SW ships is doubled, the results remain the same.
Kynes
Then accept that the 1kt reference applies *ONLY* to X-Wing proton torpedoes, and
has nothing to do with a capital ship of any kind.
> However, it is irrelevant - when the firepower
> of SW ships is doubled, the results remain the same.
Probably because you:
i) Ignored acceleration.
ii) Crippled SW ships.
iii) Vastly enhanced the firepower of ST ships.
iv) Gave ST ships perfect accuracy.
v) Did this simulation in *one dimension.*
Come on, Elim. Stop wasting our time. You admit in your own conclusion that this
simulation proves nothing. Why are you trying to convince us of otherwise?
Elim Garak
>
> > > Ang-Ti Monks can.
> >
> > What is their maximum range? Carrying capacity? How much does it take out of them?
> > How much do they have to prepair for this? And finally where the hell are
> > they?
>
> No max range. No max carrying capacity, other than the size of the ship. It
> does not take an unusual amount of energy. Preparation is nil -- just hit the
> switch and go. And they're located near Exocron in our galaxy.
Switch? Aren't they people? And where is this from?
Elim Garak
>
> > > And the Trek side cannot utilize artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream
> > > or enhanced warp.
> >
> > Of course they can use them! They just can't create them - yet.
>
> Show me one ship which regularly uses this crap to get around. There ISN'T ONE.
Borg cubes. Iconians. Voyager 2 used it. Voyager 1 is I guess the only one which will know or use QS, now that the species was wiped out. The Saurans. The
Kelvans. Etc.
> > > Temporal arguments are disallowed by the FAQ.
> >
> > Quote?
>
> From the FAQ:
>
> "Conversely, the Pro-ST side is not allowed to state that technology seen in previous
> episodes will be more advance than what we saw."
>
> In other words, you can't say the Feds will have access to technology that they
> don't have access to now.
They do.
Elim Garak
>
> > > Ok, I can buy that, but what about only 10% casualties for the Feds?
> > > I simply have to see Elim's calcs.
> >
> > I can explain it to you right now, though some hand waving will be involved. Basically
> > it all comes down to that ST ships rarely miss using their standard
> > phasers and photons (and they certainly wouldn't with those slow and lumbering ISDs), and
> > that SW ships often miss, which is connected to their slow weapon
> > speed. I used the formula 4000/d for the accuracy of the SW ships (where 4000 is the speed
> > of the TL bolt (in meters)- overestimated, I might add), and d is
> > the distance to the target. I think it is accurate - generous even. So at maximum ST
> > range of 300,000 km the probability of an ISD hitting an ST ship is
> > 0.0133%. The probability of the ST ship hitting the SW one is still 1. I used the same formula for
> > ST ship accuracy calculations, only I skewed it to the SW
> > side by saying that at distances larger than 300,000 km the accuracy is zero. At distances less than
> > 4 km the accuracy of SW weapons is also 1, of course.
>
> Aside from the laughable prospect of perfect accuracy, you have also assumed that the ISD
> has only one weapon. Nice going. If this is for a class, I sincerely hope your professor
> picks up on this.
Huh? Says who? I assumed that one ISD is capable of destroying 30 ST ships per second if it hits them - 60 TLs firing once every two seconds. And then I
doubled the number and recalculated it all.
Listen, dude, once again I am telling you - stop assuming and just read the paper. You are only embarrassing yourself, and this isn't getting us anywhere.
Elim Garak
>
> > > Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did.
> >
> > I doubt that everybody was as nice as you. Since nobody replied to it, I assumed
> > that there weren't any glaring errors. :P Probably was wrong, but here it is
> > anyway.
>
> Elim. Stop wasting our time.
I gave all ships perfect accuracy at a range of 1 second of weapon flight time.
And yes, ST ships don't miss with their general weapons - only with the Defiant type weapons.
Kynes
Bull. Go watch "What You Leave Behind," "Sacrifice of Angels," "Way of the Warrior,"
or any other DS9 combat scene. Federation weapons *regularly* miss slow-moving targets
traveling in a straight line.
Kynes
Except that ISDs have over 200 turbolasers, each of which can destroy at least one
ST ship per shot (and given that it will require nowhere near the full energy of
the bolt to do this, probably punch right through and keep going.)
Kynes
They're people with starships, yes. :P It's from "Vision of the Future."
Kynes
> Kynes wrote:
> >
> > > > And the Trek side cannot utilize artificial wormholes, transwarp, quantum slipstream
> > > > or enhanced warp.
> > >
> > > Of course they can use them! They just can't create them - yet.
> >
> > Show me one ship which regularly uses this crap to get around. There ISN'T ONE.
>
> Borg cubes. Iconians. Voyager 2 used it. Voyager 1 is I guess the only one
> which will know or use QS, now that the species was wiped out. The Saurans. The
> Kelvans. Etc.
So, not the Federation, then? Okay, we agree.
> > > > Temporal arguments are disallowed by the FAQ.
> > >
> > > Quote?
> >
> > From the FAQ:
> >
> > "Conversely, the Pro-ST side is not allowed to state that technology seen in previous
> > episodes will be more advance than what we saw."
> >
> > In other words, you can't say the Feds will have access to technology that they
> > don't have access to now.
>
> They do.
Then why isn't Voyager using it to get home?
Sean Geoghegan
Kynes wrote in message ...
>Sean Geoghegan <sea...@space.net.au> wrote in message
news:92961393...@srv1.space.net.au...
>>
>> Kynes wrote in message ...
>> >Sean Geoghegan <sea...@space.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:92960414...@srv1.space.net.au...
>> >> Since when is hyperspeed faster than warpspeed anyway. I always
thought
>> >> that Hyperspeed was just the speed of light, which leaves empire
speeds
>> to
>> >> be a fraction of federation speeds. (warp nine is the speed of light
to
>> the
>> >> power of 9). So Id like to see the empire reach us.
>> >
>> >You are badly misinformed. A Class 0.5 hyperdrive like the one the MF
>> >carries is, at minimum, 127 lightyears per hour.
>>
>> Is there any physics to back this up in any SW canon any where?
>> At least warp drive is considered possible by some physicists, all though
>> highly improbable because of the vast amounts of energy required, But a
>> minimum speed of 127 light years per hour is bloody ridiculous and seems
>> purely arbritary to me. "ah lets pick a big number. 127 that will do."
>> SW chooses to ignore reality. Lets remember that it is a Galaxy far far
>> away, not a in a different universe with a different set of physical
laws.
>
>Oh, look, a reincarnation of the "that's just way too fast" argument. Well,
>sorry; it's official and part of the SW universe, so deal with it.
>--
Which universe is that? Based on your arguement if ST writers suddenly
decided that warp 1 was 128 light years/ hour would accept that?
Sean Geoghegan
"My Dad is stronger than yours"
Aron Kerkhof
>Elim Garak <elim...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:3769FD2D...@netscape.net...
>> Strowbridge wrote:
>Come on, Elim. Stop wasting our time. You admit in your own conclusion that this
>simulation proves nothing. Why are you trying to convince us of otherwise?
Here is the real problem, Ian... From Elim's calcs:
"So at maximum ST range of 300,000 km the probability of an ISD
hitting an ST ship is 0.0133%. The probability of the ST ship hitting
the SW one is still 1."
Where the heck did he get that?? How does he know that the accuracy
of ST ships is still 1 and *300,000* km. That is rediculous. Either
the phasers are extremely weak at that range, hence their MAXIMUM
range (for a beam weapon, remember) or the ships miss regularly at
that range. Likely both, as we have seen their beams miss from point
blank range.
%100 accuracy at any range is a comlete impossibility. It would be
interesting to see a computer make a high deflection shot from
300,000km away. LOL! Even if the SD was super slow, it could still
get out of the way.
aronk@_spam_galactec.com
to reply, remove the "_spam_" from address
a.s.v.s FAQ: http://nccu1.acc.nccu.edu/~kynes/faq.txt
Aron Kerkhof
<amb...@space.net.au> wrote:
>Which universe is that? Based on your arguement if ST writers suddenly
>decided that warp 1 was 128 light years/ hour would accept that?
If we saw if happen on film, we would HAVE too. We cannot deny canon
evidence. Did you not see a post in this thread by me that PROVES from
the Star Wars movies speeds in excess of 10 million c?
>Sean Geoghegan
>"My Dad is stronger than yours"
>
>
aronk@_spam_galactec.com
Robert Williams
Kynes wrote in message ...
>> Kynes wrote:
>> >
>> > > > Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did.
>> > >
>> > > I doubt that everybody was as nice as you. Since nobody replied to it, I
assumed
>> > > that there weren't any glaring errors. :P Probably was wrong, but here
it is
>> > > anyway.
>> >
>> > You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring
>> > Elim. Stop wasting our time.
>>
time.
>>
>> And yes, ST ships don't miss with their general weapons - only with the
Defiant type weapons.
>
>Bull. Go watch "What You Leave Behind," "Sacrifice of Angels," "Way of the
Warrior,"
>or any other DS9 combat scene. Federation weapons *regularly* miss slow-moving
targets
>traveling in a straight line.
>--
Not only the federation. The klingons do it a lot, as do the cardassians.
Rob
Kynes
> >sorry; it's official and part of the SW universe, so deal with it.
> >--
> decided that warp 1 was 128 light years/ hour would accept that?
Of course. It's up to Paramount to determine the specifics of their universe,
just as it is up to LucasFilm to determine the specifics of theirs; if some
tech advancement came along that made warp 128 ly/hr, then I would certainly
accept it with no problems.
(What did you expect me to say? "NO, TREK WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS BE SLOWER!"?)
--
Strowbridge
>
> Strowbridge wrote:
> >
> > > > Yes and then even not spoken about how many ships will get destroyed before
> > > > theye destroyed one single destroyer!
> > >
> > > None. Very few, at least. By my calcs, without hyperdrive and warp drive - in a
> > > 1 dimensional environment, so far :( - an ST force can take about 10 times their
> > > number of SW ships with less than 10% casualties. And that's assuming that SW
> > > ships are 1200 times more powerful than the ST ships. Which is just not so - 1
> > > kiloton proton torpedoes and all that.
> >
> > Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
> > place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> > are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> > GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> > Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
>
> I used the Technical Journals - the same place where you people got the data for the
Only if you assume the ST side never misses, which is complete bullshit.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> Strowbridge wrote:
> >
Goddamnit Elim, read your own post. "which Starfleet will have." means
they don't have it now, which means YOU CAN'T BRING IT UP!
C.S.Strowbridge
Alex Sutton
> they don't have it now, which means YOU CAN'T BRING IT UP!
Why?
Strowbridge
>
> Kynes wrote:
> >
> > > > Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did.
> > >
> > > I doubt that everybody was as nice as you. Since nobody replied to it, I
> > > assumed that there weren't any glaring errors. :P Probably was wrong, but
> > > here it is anyway.
> >
> > You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring errors?"
>
> I gave all ships perfect accuracy at a range of 1 second of weapon flight time.
During which time a ISD can go 15 km, and this from a complete stop.
> And yes, ST ships don't miss with their general weapons - only with the Defiant
> type weapons.
Bullshit, there are NUMEROUS examples of where ST ships miss.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
No advancement through time. It's part of the FAQ, which was voted on.
C.S.Strowbridge
Kynes
> Elim Garak wrote:
> >
> > Kynes wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt that everybody was as nice as you. Since nobody replied to it, I
> > > > assumed that there weren't any glaring errors. :P Probably was wrong, but
> > > > here it is anyway.
> > >
> > > You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring errors?"
> > > come on, Elim. Stop wasting our time.
> >
> > I gave all ships perfect accuracy at a range of 1 second of weapon flight time.
>
> During which time a ISD can go 15 km, and this from a complete stop.
No kidding. Not accounting for the fast that an ISD has massive acceleration is
just foolish. Even assuming a low 30km/s^2, an ISD will have moved (assuming I performed
a simple double integration properly :P):
5km after 1s, and will be moving 15km/s
30km after 2s, and will be moving 60km/s
135km after 3s, and will be moving 135km/s
320km after 4s, and will be moving 240km/s
Even assuming lightspeed phasers (a generous assumption based on the TM which ignores
the canon FX data) and that an ISD won't start moving until half a second after the
phaser fires, the ISD will *still* have moved 625 meters by the time the phaser reaches
its target, if the phaser is fired at a distance of 1 lightsecond.
If phasers move more like 1000km/s (again, generous) and are fired from a distance of
10000km (another generous assumption, since Federation ranges aren't nearly this high)
and an ISD takes a full three seconds to engage its engines to evade, by the time the
weapon fire gets there, the ISD will be over 1700km away, moving 735km/s.
Alex Sutton
What is the time then?
Lord Edam de Fromage
that the
>> maximum sublight acceleration for the E-D is 10 km/s^2?
>
>The TNG TM.
>
got a page number for that, and a quote? I think we can jsut assume you
are wrong until you supply one. Not that I odubt you, just that I could
have swore that I read something very different in my copy of the TNG TM.
>> Look, dude, why don't you stop guessing and actually read the paper,
instead of
>> shouting about things you don't even understand?
>
>At the time I wrote this, there was no paper to comment on.
He posted his paper last sunday.
>Another problem: you've assumed that a SW ship, firing with "perfect
accuracy," can
>destroy 30 ST ships per second. I assume that means every shot connects.
I hate to
>break it to you, Elim, but the number is *much* higher than that; even a
point-defense
>turbolaser cannon on an ISD would destroy a Federation ship. Increase it
to 200.
I very much doubt a point defense turbolaser could destroy a Federation
ship. Fed ships have withstood far higher energies than the point defense
cannons without being killed.
>And, given that Federation phasers are only equivalent to about 30PW
laser cannons
>and that ISDs and other Imperial capital ships have shields which can
resist their
>weapons which are over 1E28 joules per shot, I think 0.05 SW ships per
second is way
>too high.
I've been waiting to use this for months.
"No one seriously suggests that the mainline
starships from ANY sci-fi series can withstand energies in excess of the
1E25
joule range or even close to it. If a ship could withstand energy in
the
1E25 joule range, it would be able to sit on the surface of the Sun for
more
than 500 years. Ask yourself if this seriously makes any sense."
Of course, we know SW ships cannot withstand super hot stars. But is a
super hot star going to be emitting millions times more energy than our
sun? I do not think so somehow, considering the hottest stars are only
about 100 times hotter than our sun
The number should be at *least* as low as 0.000000000000003, and that's
>assuming no recharge on the Imperial shields and that a single heavy
turbolaser can
>take down the shields of an ISD.
which it can according to SW:ICS (well, not take downt eh shields but
blast right through them)
Lord Edam de Fromage
flight time.
>>
>> During which time a ISD can go 15 km, and this from a complete stop.
>
>No kidding. Not accounting for the fast that an ISD has massive
acceleration is
>just foolish. Even assuming a low 30km/s^2, an ISD will have moved
(assuming I performed
>a simple double integration properly :P):
>
>5km after 1s, and will be moving 15km/s
>30km after 2s, and will be moving 60km/s
>135km after 3s, and will be moving 135km/s
>320km after 4s, and will be moving 240km/s
LOL!
And you have the gaul to insult other people's numbers!!
you can't even get simple equations of motion right.
s=1/2*a*t*t where a=30km/sec/sec, v=a*t, average v=s/t
from a complete stop:
1s - 15km moved, velocity 30km/sec, average velocity 15 km/sec
2s - 60km moved, velocity 60km/sec, average velocity 30km/sec
3s - 135km moved, velocity 90km/sec, average velocity 45km/sec
4s - 240km moved, velocity 120km/sec average velocity 60km/sec
god knows where you got your numbers from. Averybody over the age of 13
knows that velocity = initial velocity = (acceleration*time). Guess that
makes you about 12. I'd say clsoer to 11.
>Even assuming lightspeed phasers (a generous assumption based on the TM
which ignores
>the canon FX data) and that an ISD won't start moving until half a second
after the
>phaser fires, the ISD will *still* have moved 625 meters by the time the
phaser reaches
>its target, if the phaser is fired at a distance of 1 lightsecond.
where are you getting your numbers from? with an acceleration of 30km/sec,
in half a second, the ISD will move 3.75km
>If phasers move more like 1000km/s (again, generous) and are fired from a
distance of
>10000km (another generous assumption, since Federation ranges aren't
nearly this high)
>and an ISD takes a full three seconds to engage its engines to evade, by
the time the
>weapon fire gets there, the ISD will be over 1700km away, moving 735km/s.
And this last one is taken from cloud cuckoo land. You say phasers take 10
seconds to reach the ISd (fine, no problem there). Then you knock three
seconds off, to be generous. Again, no problem. That leaves the ISD with 7
seconds to move out of the way.
assuming 30km/s/s accl'n
s=0.5*a*t*t = 0.5*30*7*7 = 735km
velocity = acceleration * time = 30*7 = 210km/sec.
Dude, never mind fixing the FAQ. you better spend more time on your school
work. You've got to be older than 13, coz no 13yo would know what a double
integration was. But any 13 yo can see your numbers are wrong. Or is this
another one of those where I make a complete tit of myself?
Robert Williams
Alex Sutton wrote in message <7ke5vr$p5g$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
>> No advancement through time. It's part of the FAQ, which was voted on.
>
>What is the time then?
Alex,
Are you trying to convince people you are stupid or something?!
Rob
>
>
Alex Sutton
>
> Are you trying to convince people you are stupid or something?!
Don't mess me around, Robert.
Strowbridge
>
> > No advancement through time. It's part of the FAQ, which was voted on.
>
> What is the time then?
It 4:54 p.m. (Ha ha ha.)
Most of the time we are talking about Peak Federation vs. Peak Empire.
So whatever time frame that is.
C.S.Strowbridge
Jedi Anger
> >
> > > > Which you told us to ignore, which I at least did.
> > >
> > > I doubt that everybody was as nice as you. Since nobody replied to
it, I assumed
> > > that there weren't any glaring errors. :P Probably was wrong, but
here it is
> > > anyway.
> >
> > You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring
> > Elim. Stop wasting our time.
>
flight time.
>
Defiant type weapons.
You haven't seen DS9: The Final Chapter, have you?
Jedi Anger
news:7kds2d$1t$1...@epos.tesco.net...
>
> Kynes wrote in message ...
the
> Warrior,"
> >or any other DS9 combat scene. Federation weapons *regularly* miss
slow-moving
> targets
> >traveling in a straight line.
> >--
>
> Not only the federation. The klingons do it a lot, as do the
cardassians.
>
As do the Dominion, the Breen, and the Borg (with torpedoes).
> Rob
Robert Williams
Alex Sutton wrote in message <7keahj$m0$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
>> Alex,
>>
>> Are you trying to convince people you are stupid or something?!
>
>Don't mess me around, Robert.
>
Blech
*vomit*
Rob
>
Jonathan Boyd
<sea...@space.net.au> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Boyd wrote in message <7kaocv$s0u$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>>In article <92961393...@srv1.space.net.au> , "Sean Geoghegan"
>><sea...@space.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any physics to back this up in any SW canon any where?
>>
>>It's in the Thrawn trilogy.
> thanks I'll look into that.
No prob :^)
>
>>> At least warp drive is considered possible by some physicists, all though
>>> highly improbable because of the vast amounts of energy required, But a
>>
>>Actually, just 1g of negative matter.
>
> Will get you nowhere without 1g of positive matter which will b anihilated
> and then you are left with no energy source. So I think more than 1g of ANTI
> matter is needed. And then there is the energy required to contain the
> antimatter. anyway all things considered a lot of energy is required for
> warp speed.
Not talking about antimatter, talking about matter with negative mass.
>
>>> minimum speed of 127 light years per hour is bloody ridiculous and seems
>>> purely arbritary to me. "ah lets pick a big number. 127 that will do." SW
>>> chooses to ignore reality. Lets remember that it is a Galaxy far far away,
>>> not a in a different universe with a different set of physical laws.
>>
>>But we assume that it is the same universe, with the same physical
>>constants, otherwise there is no basis for comparison.
>
>
> Exactly my point. Yet Sw chooses to ignore these physical constants or
> doesn't explain what its tech does to over come them.
>
> Sean Geoghegan
>
> PS What is the recommended reading order for the SW books.
Avoid KJA Anderson and read the rest in chronological order, IMHO.
--
Jonathan
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Jonathan Boyd
wrote:
> Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
> place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
Where are torps mentioned as gigaton? I want a quote. I'll accept TLs are
gigaton, but I've never seen anything saying that torps are.
--
Jonathan
"It's difficult to work in a group when you are omnipotent."
Jonathan Boyd
<Lord...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And this last one is taken from cloud cuckoo land. You say phasers take 10
> seconds to reach the ISd (fine, no problem there). Then you knock three
> seconds off, to be generous. Again, no problem. That leaves the ISD with 7
> seconds to move out of the way.
>
> assuming 30km/s/s accl'n
>
> s=0.5*a*t*t = 0.5*30*7*7 = 735km
> velocity = acceleration * time = 30*7 = 210km/sec.
>
> Dude, never mind fixing the FAQ. you better spend more time on your school
> work. You've got to be older than 13, coz no 13yo would know what a double
> integration was. But any 13 yo can see your numbers are wrong. Or is this
> another one of those where I make a complete tit of myself?
No, you're right. I've just finished my GCSE Maths papers, Advanced Maths
Pure paper and a Physics paper. Kynes made a boo-boo.
Kynes
> Kynes wrote in message ...
> that the
> >> maximum sublight acceleration for the E-D is 10 km/s^2?
> >
> >The TNG TM.
> >
>
> got a page number for that, and a quote? I think we can jsut assume you
> are wrong until you supply one. Not that I odubt you, just that I could
> have swore that I read something very different in my copy of the TNG TM.
Considering that the E-nil accelerated at 1g at "full impulse" (ref. ST3), I
think it's a *generous* assumption that the E-D can accelerate with a thousand
times more force. The real number is probably a lot lower.
> >Another problem: you've assumed that a SW ship, firing with "perfect
> accuracy," can
> >destroy 30 ST ships per second. I assume that means every shot connects.
> I hate to
> >break it to you, Elim, but the number is *much* higher than that; even a
> point-defense
> >turbolaser cannon on an ISD would destroy a Federation ship. Increase it
> to 200.
>
> I very much doubt a point defense turbolaser could destroy a Federation
> ship. Fed ships have withstood far higher energies than the point defense
> cannons without being killed.
Oh, like in "Survivors," when a 200GJ weapon dropped the shields of the Enterprise,
or in ST2, where the shields of the Enterprise were dropped by a diffuse nebula?
> >And, given that Federation phasers are only equivalent to about 30PW
> laser cannons
> >and that ISDs and other Imperial capital ships have shields which can
> resist their
> >weapons which are over 1E28 joules per shot, I think 0.05 SW ships per
> second is way
> >too high.
>
> I've been waiting to use this for months.
> "No one seriously suggests that the mainline
> starships from ANY sci-fi series can withstand energies in excess of the
> 1E25
> joule range or even close to it. If a ship could withstand energy in
> the
> 1E25 joule range, it would be able to sit on the surface of the Sun for
> more
> than 500 years. Ask yourself if this seriously makes any sense."
Common sense cannot override the canon statements of General Dodonna in
ANH. Real science tells us that exceeding the speed of light is impossible;
would you ban that from the debates as well?
> The number should be at *least* as low as 0.000000000000003, and that's
> >assuming no recharge on the Imperial shields and that a single heavy
> turbolaser can
> >take down the shields of an ISD.
>
> which it can according to SW:ICS (well, not take downt eh shields but
> blast right through them)
I think we can assume you're wrong until we see a quote.
--
Strowbridge
>
> In article <3769574...@home.com> , Strowbridge <strow...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
> > place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> > are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> > GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> > Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
>
> Where are torps mentioned as gigaton? I want a quote. I'll accept TLs are
> gigaton, but I've never seen anything saying that torps are.
Two points.
1.) If you except the gigaton yield for TL then why not Proton
Torpedoes? After all why use the more expensive, slower, proton
torpedoes unless they are more powerful.
2.) In "Slave Ship" Imperial Star Destroyers can withstand "explosions
measured in the giga-tonnage range" and the Rebels were able to use
Proton Torpedoes to punch through the armour of an Executor Class Star
Destroyer.
C.S.Strowbridge
Kynes
> Kynes wrote in message ...
> flight time.
> >>
> >
> >No kidding. Not accounting for the fast that an ISD has massive
> acceleration is
> >just foolish. Even assuming a low 30km/s^2, an ISD will have moved
> (assuming I performed
> >a simple double integration properly :P):
> >
> >5km after 1s, and will be moving 15km/s
> >30km after 2s, and will be moving 60km/s
> >135km after 3s, and will be moving 135km/s
> >320km after 4s, and will be moving 240km/s
>
> LOL!
>
> And you have the gaul to insult other people's numbers!!
>
> you can't even get simple equations of motion right.
>
> s=1/2*a*t*t where a=30km/sec/sec, v=a*t, average v=s/t
>
> from a complete stop:
> 1s - 15km moved, velocity 30km/sec, average velocity 15 km/sec
> 2s - 60km moved, velocity 60km/sec, average velocity 30km/sec
> 3s - 135km moved, velocity 90km/sec, average velocity 45km/sec
> 4s - 240km moved, velocity 120km/sec average velocity 60km/sec
If I had meant "average velocity," I would have said so.
> >Even assuming lightspeed phasers (a generous assumption based on the TM
> which ignores
> >the canon FX data) and that an ISD won't start moving until half a second
> after the
> >phaser fires, the ISD will *still* have moved 625 meters by the time the
> phaser reaches
> >its target, if the phaser is fired at a distance of 1 lightsecond.
>
> where are you getting your numbers from? with an acceleration of 30km/sec,
> in half a second, the ISD will move 3.75km
Integrate the acceleration function and get the velocity function. Integrate
that and get the position function -- in this case, 5t^3.
> >If phasers move more like 1000km/s (again, generous) and are fired from a
> distance of
> >10000km (another generous assumption, since Federation ranges aren't
> nearly this high)
> >and an ISD takes a full three seconds to engage its engines to evade, by
> the time the
> >weapon fire gets there, the ISD will be over 1700km away, moving 735km/s.
>
> And this last one is taken from cloud cuckoo land. You say phasers take 10
> seconds to reach the ISd (fine, no problem there). Then you knock three
> seconds off, to be generous. Again, no problem. That leaves the ISD with 7
> seconds to move out of the way.
>
> assuming 30km/s/s accl'n
>
> s=0.5*a*t*t = 0.5*30*7*7 = 735km
> velocity = acceleration * time = 30*7 = 210km/sec.
>
> Dude, never mind fixing the FAQ. you better spend more time on your school
> work. You've got to be older than 13, coz no 13yo would know what a double
> integration was. But any 13 yo can see your numbers are wrong. Or is this
> another one of those where I make a complete tit of myself?
Well, I admit that I may be very wrong on this; I think the discrepancies
in our numbers arise from the fact that I'm using instantaneous velocity and
you're doing time-averaged numbers.
Alex Sutton
> So whatever time frame that is.
"Peak Federation" and "Peak Empire" meaning the peak of what we have seen,
right?
Lord Edam de Fromage
>> >
>> >No kidding. Not accounting for the fast that an ISD has massive
>> acceleration is
>> >just foolish. Even assuming a low 30km/s^2, an ISD will have moved
>> (assuming I performed
>> >a simple double integration properly :P):
>> >
>> >5km after 1s, and will be moving 15km/s
>> >30km after 2s, and will be moving 60km/s
>> >135km after 3s, and will be moving 135km/s
>> >320km after 4s, and will be moving 240km/s
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> And you have the gaul to insult other people's numbers!!
>>
>> you can't even get simple equations of motion right.
>>
>> s=1/2*a*t*t where a=30km/sec/sec, v=a*t, average v=s/t
>>
>> from a complete stop:
>> 1s - 15km moved, velocity 30km/sec, average velocity 15 km/sec
>> 2s - 60km moved, velocity 60km/sec, average velocity 30km/sec
>> 3s - 135km moved, velocity 90km/sec, average velocity 45km/sec
>> 4s - 240km moved, velocity 120km/sec average velocity 60km/sec
>
>If I had meant "average velocity," I would have said so.
So you meant actual velocity? Then you are STILL wrong. look above. I have
given you distance travelled, veloctity after that time(instantaneous
velocity), and average velocity. Now, the only part of my calcs that agree
with yours is the
average velocity after one second.
don't go all Timmy on us, just admit your numbers are wrong. There is no
way for you to get a velocity of 240km/s after 4 seconds of 30km/s/s
acceleration. It's double what it should be.
>> >Even assuming lightspeed phasers (a generous assumption based on the
TM
>> which ignores
>> >the canon FX data) and that an ISD won't start moving until half a
second
>> after the
>> >phaser fires, the ISD will *still* have moved 625 meters by the time
the
>> phaser reaches
>> >its target, if the phaser is fired at a distance of 1 lightsecond.
>>
>> where are you getting your numbers from? with an acceleration of
30km/sec,
>> in half a second, the ISD will move 3.75km
>
>Integrate the acceleration function and get the velocity function.
Integrate
>that and get the position function -- in this case, 5t^3.
You don't even know how to do integration properly. If below is wrong,
explain how you get 5t^3 for position
why bother with all that integreation shit? Any high school physics text
will give you the equations of motion. These are taken from Muncaster(ISBN
0-7487-0050-1), page 15(actually, they are takne from memory, but that's
where you can find them). If you know about integrations from your maths
classes you should have done basic mechanics in your science class. At
least, you would have in any sensible education system)
v=u+at
v^2=u^2+2as
s=ut+1/2at^2
s=1/2(u=v)/t
where s=distance moved, u=initial velocity, v=final velocity,
a=acceleration, t=time.
There is no way whatsoever to fit your numbers in to these equations.
I think I know where you went wrong.
a=30km/sec/sec
v=int (a)dt=at (int=integration incase you are confused)
s=inst (v)dt = int (at)dt = (at^2)/2
No, the discrepancies arise from the fact that you tried to be clever
rather than just
plugging the numbers into the basic equations of motion that every 13 yo
knows.
nowhere have I used time averaged velocity, other than in the original
table where I was trying to work out exactly where you were getting your
numbers from.
If you would like to post your working out I can correct it for you(I
already know where you went wrong, and it was a very simple mistake)
Lord Edam de Fromage
>> that the
>> >> maximum sublight acceleration for the E-D is 10 km/s^2?
>> >
>> >The TNG TM.
>>
>> got a page number for that, and a quote? I think we can jsut assume you
>> are wrong until you supply one. Not that I odubt you, just that I could
>> have swore that I read something very different in my copy of the TNG
TM.
>
>Considering that the E-nil accelerated at 1g at "full impulse" (ref.
ST3), I
>think it's a *generous* assumption that the E-D can accelerate with a
thousand
>times more force. The real number is probably a lot lower.
so your failure to provide an actual quote means you are either
a) too lazy to support your argument, in whic case it is implicit
concession or
b) Lying
Got a quote to support your ST3 claim of 1g? It is some years since I
watched that one.
Personally, I think it very reasonable to assume a ship made what, 60
years? after another is going to have far greater acceleration. Especially
considering both TMs refer to accelerations of 1000g as common place, and
if we belive Timmy, accelerations of 0.18c/s are the likely maximum.
>> I very much doubt a point defense turbolaser could destroy a Federation
>> ship. Fed ships have withstood far higher energies than the point
defense
>> cannons without being killed.
>
>Oh, like in "Survivors," when a 200GJ weapon dropped the shields of the
Enterprise,
>or in ST2, where the shields of the Enterprise were dropped by a diffuse
nebula?
Since when has dropping shields been anywhere near destroying a ship? Have
you got anything that actually destroyed the ship to use in your argument?
>> >And, given that Federation phasers are only equivalent to about 30PW
>> laser cannons
>> >and that ISDs and other Imperial capital ships have shields which can
>> resist their
>> >weapons which are over 1E28 joules per shot, I think 0.05 SW ships per
>> second is way
>> >too high.
>>
>> I've been waiting to use this for months.
>> "No one seriously suggests that the mainline
>> starships from ANY sci-fi series can withstand energies in excess of
the
>> 1E25
>> joule range or even close to it. If a ship could withstand energy in
>> the
>> 1E25 joule range, it would be able to sit on the surface of the Sun for
>> more
>> than 500 years. Ask yourself if this seriously makes any sense."
>
>Common sense cannot override the canon statements of General Dodonna in
>ANH. Real science tells us that exceeding the speed of light is
impossible;
>would you ban that from the debates as well?
Common sense can overide how you interpret General Dodonna's statment. If
he had said "Imperial ships have a firepower of over 1e28 joules per shot"
you would be correct - common sense cannot overide it. But common sense
can easily overide the made-up numbers you have treid to derive from it.
nothing can overide STATED or DEMOSTRATED quantifiable abilities from
CANON sources. But in this case, the only quantifiable abilities give
firepower far lower than what you are claiming.
>> The number should be at *least* as low as 0.000000000000003, and that's
>> >assuming no recharge on the Imperial shields and that a single heavy
>> turbolaser can
>> >take down the shields of an ISD.
>>
>> which it can according to SW:ICS (well, not take downt eh shields but
>> blast right through them)
>
>I think we can assume you're wrong until we see a quote.
Yep, "These guns can overload shields and punch holes in the most heavily
armoured space craft". ISD is one of the most heavily armoured space
craft, is it not?
Lord Edam de Fromage
>s=1/2(u=v)/t
DOH!!! s=1/2(u+v)/t
>s=inst (v)dt = int (at)dt = (at^2)/2
and inst should be int
Jonathan Boyd
<ky...@choam.org> wrote:
> Lord Edam de Fromage <Lord...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7ke8dr$hcm$2...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Kynes wrote in message ...
>> >> > I gave all ships perfect accuracy at a range of 1 second of weapon
>> flight time.
>> >>
>> >> During which time a ISD can go 15 km, and this from a complete stop.
>> >
>>> No kidding. Not accounting for the fast that an ISD has massive acceleration
>>> is just foolish. Even assuming a low 30km/s^2, an ISD will have moved
>>> (assuming I performed a simple double integration properly :P):
>> >
>> >5km after 1s, and will be moving 15km/s
>> >30km after 2s, and will be moving 60km/s
>> >135km after 3s, and will be moving 135km/s
>> >320km after 4s, and will be moving 240km/s
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> And you have the gaul to insult other people's numbers!!
>>
>> you can't even get simple equations of motion right.
>>
>> s=1/2*a*t*t where a=30km/sec/sec, v=a*t, average v=s/t
>>
>> from a complete stop:
>> 1s - 15km moved, velocity 30km/sec, average velocity 15 km/sec
>> 2s - 60km moved, velocity 60km/sec, average velocity 30km/sec
>> 3s - 135km moved, velocity 90km/sec, average velocity 45km/sec
>> 4s - 240km moved, velocity 120km/sec average velocity 60km/sec
>
> If I had meant "average velocity," I would have said so.
If you didn't then your numbers are rubbish.
>
>>> Even assuming lightspeed phasers (a generous assumption based on the TM
>>> which ignores the canon FX data) and that an ISD won't start moving until
>>> half a second after the phaser fires, the ISD will *still* have moved 625
>>> meters by the time the phaser reaches its target, if the phaser is fired at
>>> a distance of 1 lightsecond.
>>
>> where are you getting your numbers from? with an acceleration of 30km/sec,
>> in half a second, the ISD will move 3.75km
>
> Integrate the acceleration function and get the velocity function. Integrate
> that and get the position function -- in this case, 5t^3.
Nope. Taking your figure for acceleration :
a = 30
integrate a -> v = 30t
integrate v -> s = 15t^2
You've integrated once too often.
>>> If phasers move more like 1000km/s (again, generous) and are fired from a
>>> distance of 10000km (another generous assumption, since Federation ranges
>>> aren't nearly this high) and an ISD takes a full three seconds to engage its
>>> engines to evade, by the time the weapon fire gets there, the ISD will be
>>> over 1700km away, moving 735km/s.
>> And this last one is taken from cloud cuckoo land. You say phasers take 10
>> seconds to reach the ISd (fine, no problem there). Then you knock three
>> seconds off, to be generous. Again, no problem. That leaves the ISD with 7
>> seconds to move out of the way.
>>
>> assuming 30km/s/s accl'n
>>
>> s=0.5*a*t*t = 0.5*30*7*7 = 735km
>> velocity = acceleration * time = 30*7 = 210km/sec.
>>
>> Dude, never mind fixing the FAQ. you better spend more time on your school
>> work. You've got to be older than 13, coz no 13yo would know what a double
>> integration was. But any 13 yo can see your numbers are wrong. Or is this
>> another one of those where I make a complete tit of myself?
>
> Well, I admit that I may be very wrong on this; I think the discrepancies
> in our numbers arise from the fact that I'm using instantaneous velocity and
> you're doing time-averaged numbers.
You have the velocity after 4seconds being 240km/s. If you are only
acclerating at 30km/s^2, your velocity will be 3*40 = 120.
--
Jonathan
"A man lives by believing something ; not by debating and arguing many
things"
Jonathan Boyd
wrote:
This answers both questions :
SW ships have 2 types of shields, particle and ray. I've heard that it is
common practice to have particle shields up, but not ray shields because of
their power, a theory backed up by ESB. This suggests that ray shields are
considerably more powerful than particle shields. Just because ray shields
can withstand gigatonnes of energy doesn't mean that particle shields can.
--
Jonathan
"Printer on fire" Windows 95
Strowbridge
Right, cause it would be unfair to compare Post Endor Empire vs. Peak
Federation. It is considered an admission of defeat. (I.E. the
Federation couldn't beat the Empire by itself, but they could swept up
after the Rebels.) or (I.E. the Empire couldn't beat the Federation by
itself, but they could swept up after the Dominion.)
Unfortunately, with the Federation Peak Numbers does not occur at the
same time as Peak Technology.
C.S.Strowbridge
Alex Sutton
> Federation. It is considered an admission of defeat. (I.E. the
> Federation couldn't beat the Empire by itself, but they could swept up
> after the Rebels.) or (I.E. the Empire couldn't beat the Federation by
> itself, but they could swept up after the Dominion.)
>
> Unfortunately, with the Federation Peak Numbers does not occur at the
> same time as Peak Technology.
When would Peak Federation numbers be?
And how do we know that Peak technology for the Empire is the same as Peak numbers?
Strowbridge
Actually in "Slave Ship" it was referring to the hull of an ISD.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> > Right, cause it would be unfair to compare Post Endor Empire vs. Peak
> > Federation. It is considered an admission of defeat. (I.E. the
> > Federation couldn't beat the Empire by itself, but they could swept up
> > after the Rebels.) or (I.E. the Empire couldn't beat the Federation by
> > itself, but they could swept up after the Dominion.)
> >
> > Unfortunately, with the Federation Peak Numbers does not occur at the
> > same time as Peak Technology.
>
> When would Peak Federation numbers be?
I would use the figures just before the Dominion War started.
> And how do we know that Peak technology for the Empire is the same as Peak numbers?
Well there not, but we generally don't use Thawn's Empire due to the
great reduction in numbers. They lost more territory and ships than 10
Federations ever possessed.
C.S.Strowbridge
Elim Garak
>
> > > Who wants to bet me $100 that Elim did *not* factor in acceleration, which on the
> > > E-D is 10km/s^2 and on an ISD is 30km/s^2? We have *superior* sublight maneuvering
> > > speed.
> >
> > You are right, forgot all about it. Also, where exactly does it say that the
> > maximum sublight acceleration for the E-D is 10 km/s^2?
>
> The TNG TM.
Are you talking about the note at page 49 which states that older impulse engines were not capable of accelerating the E-D at 10 km/s^2, and that doesn't say
that this is the top acceleration of the E-D? Also, did you forget about warp fractions which would give nearly instantaneous acceleration anywhere from 0 to
several thousand c?
> > And finally, other ships
> > have superior sublight drives - other very old ships. I didn't say specifically which
> > ship is used in the ST side as a baseline.
>
> Hmm. Okay, true, you didn't.
Wow, a whole two sentences without an put-down attempt or anything!
> > > Besides, the ST ships would have to sit at over 4.7E7 km to be out of range of our
> > > weapons. I imagine he didn't factor *that* in either.
> >
> > Nope, I did - though they wouldn't have to sit there. Since their accuracy is
> > atrocious, SW weapons are not that dangerous at large ranges.
>
> I have a real problem with the way you're figuring accuracy. Did you do any research
> on *actual* long-range weapons and see what their accuracy is?
No - that's why I overestimated it. I think that when it takes a projectile 4 seconds to reach its target the probability of it hitting a moving and highly
maneuverable target that sees the projectile and tries to get out of its way is much less than 25%.
> > It is not 4.7e7,
> > but only 32.5 million km, though. Got it from the calcs from the technical journal and
> > super laser range vs. TL range.
>
> Oh, right.
And yet another one! WOW!
> > Look, dude, why don't you stop guessing and actually read the paper, instead of
> > shouting about things you don't even understand?
>
> At the time I wrote this, there was no paper to comment on.
Wrong, I posted it several days ago.
> Another problem: you've assumed that a SW ship, firing with "perfect accuracy," can
> destroy 30 ST ships per second. I assume that means every shot connects. I hate to
> break it to you, Elim, but the number is *much* higher than that; even a point-defense
> turbolaser cannon on an ISD would destroy a Federation ship. Increase it to 200.
OK, sure, no problem. I will do it. However first I will build another sim - this one in 3d, with weapon speeds, maneuvering, and FTL drives.
> And, given that Federation phasers are only equivalent to about 30PW laser cannons
> and that ISDs and other Imperial capital ships have shields which can resist their
> weapons which are over 1E28 joules per shot, I think 0.05 SW ships per second is way
> too high. The number should be at *least* as low as 0.000000000000003, and that's
> assuming no recharge on the Imperial shields and that a single heavy turbolaser can
> take down the shields of an ISD.
NOT! Not gonna happen. Though I think I will run the simulation with these numbers anyway - just to see if ST will win. It might. Do you know why I am so
sure that these numbers are wrong? Incredibly low powered weapons in TPM.
Elim Garak
>
> > > You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring errors?" Come on,
> > > Elim. Stop wasting our time.
> >
> >
>
> Bull. Go watch "What You Leave Behind," "Sacrifice of Angels," "Way of the Warrior,"
> or any other DS9 combat scene. Federation weapons *regularly* miss slow-moving targets
> traveling in a straight line.
Are you talking about pulse weapons or regular phasers that can be aimed?
Elim Garak
>
> > > You gave ST ships *perfect* accuracy and you can't see any "glaring errors?"
> >
> > I gave all ships perfect accuracy at a range of 1 second of weapon flight time.
>
I will fix this in the next model.
> > And yes, ST ships don't miss with their general weapons - only with the Defiant
> > type weapons.
>
> Bullshit, there are NUMEROUS examples of where ST ships miss.
OK, tell me when the Enterprise missed in a regular combat situation.
Elim Garak
>
> > >The TNG TM.
> >
> > got a page number for that, and a quote? I think we can jsut assume you
> > are wrong until you supply one. Not that I odubt you, just that I could
> > have swore that I read something very different in my copy of the TNG TM.
>
> Considering that the E-nil accelerated at 1g at "full impulse" (ref. ST3), I
> think it's a *generous* assumption that the E-D can accelerate with a thousand
> times more force. The real number is probably a lot lower.
With warp fractions the only acceleration limit is how fast the warp field forms, and how quickly the power generation of the E-D can grow. Which according to
Data is VERY fast.
Elim Garak
>
> > > Aside from the laughable prospect of perfect accuracy, you have also assumed that the ISD
> > > has only one weapon. Nice going. If this is for a class, I sincerely hope your professor
> > > picks up on this.
> >
> > Huh? Says who? I assumed that one ISD is capable of destroying 30 ST ships per
> > second if it hits them - 60 TLs firing once every two seconds. And then I
> > doubled the number and recalculated it all.
>
> Except that ISDs have over 200 turbolasers, each of which can destroy at least one
> ST ship per shot (and given that it will require nowhere near the full energy of
> the bolt to do this, probably punch right through and keep going.)
NOT! LOL! OK, how's this for proof?
1 hit of a laser canon can't take down even a small fighter, right? And fighters can recharge their shields several times. Yet they don't seem to run out of
fuel - even though if we assume your 'minimal' figure - 300,000 TW - they would need to use up over 3 kg of matter and antimatter using the most efficient
reaction possible. And yet we know that the best SW can do is fusion.
Second, we know that one hit from a proton torpedo is more than enough to wipe out a fighter. Several fighters, in fact. Yet the blast of TWO proton torpedoes
in TPM was only slightly more impressive than the explosion of a few kg of C4 in Die Hard.
Elim Garak
>
> > > Show me one ship which regularly uses this crap to get around. There ISN'T ONE.
> >
> > Borg cubes. Iconians. Voyager 2 used it. Voyager 1 is I guess the only one
> > which will know or use QS, now that the species was wiped out. The Saurans. The
> > Kelvans. Etc.
>
> So, not the Federation, then? Okay, we agree.
No, not the Federation, not yet. We have to wait a few more years for Voyager to get back. I suspect that they will use the second more stable slipstream to do
something like the first ST - fly around but not too far from home.
> > > From the FAQ:
> > >
> > > "Conversely, the Pro-ST side is not allowed to state that technology seen in previous
> > > episodes will be more advance than what we saw."
> > >
> > > In other words, you can't say the Feds will have access to technology that they
> > > don't have access to now.
> >
> > They do.
>
> Then why isn't Voyager using it to get home?
Because it doesn't have the materials or the equipment to make the necessary modifications and upgrades. Seven knows how to build transwarp drives, for
instance.
Elim Garak
>
> > > None of which have been proven successful, and therefore none can be
> > > used here.
> >
> > Transwarp works very well, as does enhanced warp and quantum slipstream. QS
> > especially, since all that is needed are the designs for the engine - which Voyager
> > has - and some special systems - which Starfleet will have.
>
> Goddamnit Elim, read your own post. "which Starfleet will have." means
> they don't have it now, which means YOU CAN'T BRING IT UP!
How can you say that I can't, when I just did?
Elim Garak
>
> > > Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
> > > place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> > > are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> > > GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> > > Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
> >
> > the maximum range of the TLs.
>
> Then accept that the 1kt reference applies *ONLY* to X-Wing proton torpedoes, and
> has nothing to do with a capital ship of any kind.
OK, sure. And around 48 of them is needed to take down a shield of an ISD. BTW, do you remember how puny the two proton torpedoes in TPM were?
> > However, it is irrelevant - when the firepower
> > of SW ships is doubled, the results remain the same.
>
> Probably because you:
>
> i) Ignored acceleration.
> ii) Crippled SW ships.
Nope. Did not.
> iii) Vastly enhanced the firepower of ST ships.
Nope, didn't.
> iv) Gave ST ships perfect accuracy.
Real figures.
> v) Did this simulation in *one dimension.*
Irrelevant - doesn't matter.
Actually, it was just a small bug in my program - I changed the values lower in the code, and modified only the initial numbers. All of my calcs were thus done
for the effectiveness of ST ships of 0.5, and effectiveness of SW ships of 30. I will do better in my next sim, which will include 3d, hyperdrive and warp
drive, maneuverability, weapon speeds, etc. BTW, can you give me the max maneuverability of ISDs? In degrees per second?
> Come on, Elim. Stop wasting our time. You admit in your own conclusion that this
> simulation proves nothing.
Huh? Where?
> Why are you trying to convince us of otherwise?
Because it is true.
Elim Garak
>
> > > Do you have any idea where that number came from, and how many other
> > > place contradict it. We have proof that Capital Class Proton Torpedoes
> > > are more than 1 kiloton. In fact in Slave Ship there were described as
> > > GIGAton weapons. Which makes sense since Tl are also Gigaton weapons.
> > > Why use the more expensive, slower, Torps unless they are more powerful.
> >
> > I used the Technical Journals - the same place where you people got the data for the
> > is doubled, the results remain the same.
>
It isn't - when did the E-D miss under normal combat conditions?
Also, if proton torpedoes are so powerful, then why is the explosion of TWO of them is just about as impressive (less so) than the explosion of a few kg of C4
in Die Hard?
Elim Garak
>
> >> The federation would probably lose at least 2 dozen starships, before any
> >> star
> >> destroyers went up, assuming that the federation had vast numerical
> >> superiority
> >> in a battle.
> >
> >Actually, according to my calcs,
>
> Which are bollox, and count for nothing.
You are bollox. And count for nothing. Troll.
Elim Garak
>
> > > No max range. No max carrying capacity, other than the size of the ship. It
> > > does not take an unusual amount of energy. Preparation is nil -- just hit the
> > > switch and go. And they're located near Exocron in our galaxy.
> >
> > Switch? Aren't they people? And where is this from?
>
> They're people with starships, yes. :P It's from "Vision of the Future."
So why do they need to hit the switch to go?