Folsom VS. Violet Wand??
scott
lifestyle, and are definitely getting "in" deeper and deeper. We are
looking for an electrical toy next, but don't know which one to buy.
Any insight on the various products out there would be greatly
appreciated. What is the difference between the two Folsom boxes?
Regular and Max. And how would either of these compare with a Violet
Wand?
Scott
Jason Crowell
says...
If I have these straight, the Folsom is a brand of TENS unit.
The TENS unit runs a very mild current into your muscles, causing
muscular contractions, but there is very little feeling to it. It
causes you to lose control over the affected muscles.
(It kinda feels like you are on remote control.)
The Violet Wand doesn't cause the contractions like the TENS, it uses
static electricity to cause a shock similar to the "carpet shuffle
zap". This has *much* more sensation than a TENS unit, even at the
lowest level.
Faustopheles
scott <har...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> My girlfriend and I have recently been experimenting with the
> lifestyle, and are definitely getting "in" deeper and deeper. We are
> looking for an electrical toy next, but don't know which one to buy.
> Any insight on the various products out there would be greatly
> appreciated. What is the difference between the two Folsom boxes?
> Regular and Max. And how would either of these compare with a Violet
> Wand?
> Scott
You have received a couple of responses on this already; unfortunately,
the accuracy of those was very low. Violet wands do not produce
static electricity; the sensation, however, is simlar. TENS units
do not produce "broadband" stimulation, although the non-sinusoidal
waveform is rich in harmonics. You definitely can feel the
stimulation of a TENS unit. So could the last pain slut I used
one on :-). Whether a TENS masks pain or induces pain and/or
causes muscle contractions depends on adjustments.
A TENS unit can produce exactly the same stimulation that an EMS
unit provides (assuming typical units of both types). The EMS
is missing one of the controls over pulse waveform that a TENS unit
typically has. However, the EMS unit has more controls over the
modulation. Want 2 seconds on ("contract") and 10 seconds off
("relax"), an EMS unit will typically let you do it. A TENS
unit will offer constant on, burst, or modulation with fixed
duration and duty cycle. Personally, I think it is really sad
that they make two different units that do almost exactly the
same thing but the two types are each missing a different subset
of the controls.
The two folsum units suffer from the same limitations. Each is
adjustable over a different range of intensities. Apparently,
buying the more expensive box does not give you all the capabilities
of the cheaper box. This is based on online descriptions not
personal experience with the Folsom Units.
For about half the price of the Folsom Units, you can buy a
FINE TENS unit from regular poster John Warren's company
(http://www.diversified--services.com - yes, two dashes).
That is where I got mine, although I have played with and read
the documentation for others. The FINE TENS unit appears to
be an Asian import targeted at the S/M market and the
documentation is very skimpy. It has the same specifications
as units made in this country for medical use (which often
sell for around $500).
DO NOT play with electricity without adequate information. You
should read the book _Juice: Electricity for Pleasure and Pain_
and my website (see signature) which corrects some errors in
that book and provides additional information.
Contrary to popular opinion, a Violet Wand above the waist
(or applied below the waist with some portion of the body
above the waist grounded) can kill you (due to defects in
the wiring of violet wands and/or in household wiring).
It is the 117VAC wall voltage, not the limited current high voltage,
which can kill you although the high voltage can help blaze a trail
for the effectively unlimited current of the 117VAC mains.
But if you take a few safegaurds it is pretty safe
above the waist.
The upper range of adjustment of a TENS unit is at or just below
the level considered potentially fatal for adults (children take
less stimulation) with unbroken skin so caution is definitely needed
above the waist. Now, I have deliberately applied a TENS unit
to deliver the maximum shock across my heart and it was considerably
less than some non-fatal accidents I have experienced in the past.
That doesn't mean I would be comfortable applying the same stimulus
to everyone else. Even in my case, I might be able to repeat that
100 times without harm and keel over the 101st time although
I don't think it is very likely.
The violet wand does feel a lot like zapping yourself with
static electricity and the stimulation is usually felt at the
surface of the skin. Ocassionally, if you hit just the right
spot you can induce minor muscle contractions. A TENS unit
is typically felt a little deeper inside and over a larger area
since it is typically used with large electrodes.
If you want a new violet wand, visit the Stockroom
(http://www.stockroom.com/. They are pricey but better
than cheaper units sold elsewhere. You can also buy used
units on Ebay for $100 or less. Violet wands must be inspected
by a qualified electronics technician who has read my web
page (sadly most technicians, engineers, and experienced
electrical players will not recognize the hazard unless it is
pointed out to them). An AC outlet tester should be used on
every outlet you use a violet wand with.
There is considerable variation among TENS units and even more
among violet wands.
You might also consider a "Swatter II" electric flyswat (do
a web search for vanilla suppliers) for a first electrical toy.
The "Swatter III" is not as good for our purposes although
you probably could cut away one of the protective meshes.
The cost is around $20. It produces a local high voltage
zap felt at the skin's surface.
--
http://faustopheles.mybdsm.com/
SSBB Diplomatic Corps: Charlottesville, VA
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
-^-^spectrum-^^-
Faustopheles <fausto...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <389264F9...@hotmail.com>,
> scott <har...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> My girlfriend and I have recently been experimenting with the
>> lifestyle, and are definitely getting "in" deeper and deeper. We are
>> looking for an electrical toy next, but don't know which one to buy.
>> Any insight on the various products out there would be greatly
>> appreciated. What is the difference between the two Folsom boxes?
>> Regular and Max. And how would either of these compare with a Violet
>> Wand?
>> Scott
>Contrary to popular opinion, a Violet Wand above the waist
>(or applied below the waist with some portion of the body
>above the waist grounded) can kill you (due to defects in
>the wiring of violet wands and/or in household wiring).
>It is the 117VAC wall voltage, not the limited current high voltage,
>which can kill you although the high voltage can help blaze a trail
>for the effectively unlimited current of the 117VAC mains.
>But if you take a few safegaurds it is pretty safe
>above the waist.
With the assumption that it doesn't reduce all the hazards to nil,
would the use of a GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) device at the AC
plug appreciably reduce this specific problem?
-^-^spectrum-^^- spectrum@magenta..COM
Tales of ASBWorld and Pervhome: http://magenta.com/lmnop/users/spectrum
"All power to the people." …
Faustopheles
-^-^spectrum-^^- <spectrum@magenta..KOM> wrote:
> faustopheles wrote:
> >Contrary to popular opinion, a Violet Wand above the waist
> >(or applied below the waist with some portion of the body
> >above the waist grounded) can kill you (due to defects in
> >the wiring of violet wands and/or in household wiring).
> >It is the 117VAC wall voltage, not the limited current high voltage,
> >which can kill you although the high voltage can help blaze a trail
> >for the effectively unlimited current of the 117VAC mains.
> >But if you take a few safegaurds it is pretty safe
> >above the waist.
>
> would the use of a GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) device at the AC
> plug appreciably reduce this specific problem?
This is a definite maybe. Use of a GFCI is a good idea but
they provide much less protection than one might think.
There are problems with GFCI's with a violet wand:
- Normal operation of a violet wand might trip a GFCI
particularly if you struck an arc to a good ground.
This is not hypothetical, I have done this.
- If a GFCI trips while you are striking an arc, there
is a very good possibility that the high voltage
could damage the electronics in the GFCI.
Fortunately, I just tripped one GFCI ten times
in succession using a violet wand and it still seemed
to function properly.
- An improperly wired outlet or extension cord might
not only make a violet wand dangerous but also interfere
with the proper operation of some or all GFCI's.
- There are certain scenarios where you could bypass
the GFCI (although you are no worse of than if you
did not have one). If the person being zapped places
a body part against an extension cord, for example,
the high voltage could cause insulation breakdown by
arcing to the hot wire and an electrocution could
result from 117VAC then flowing through the new
path. Touching a piece of ungrounded metal furniture
which in turn touches a plastic cased outlet strip or
an extension cord could have similar results. These
are lower probability accidents since the sub would
also need to be grounded but there still be a better
path to ground (for the high voltage) through the
extension cord.
- If the sub is connected to "neutral" instead of
ground (which can happen, for example, if the sub arcs to an
extension cord), the GFCI will not protect you.
- Wands are portable but portable GFCI's are unfortunately
rare (but you can easily make one) at retail outlets
and likely to be way overpriced on the off chance you
do find one.
That said, use of a GFCI probably does provide some
significant protection. In my tests using only one
GFCI, I found that the GFCI would not trip with even
the highest wand setting if you arced through one of
the glass electrodes. An arc from the tip of the
without a glass electrode, however, would trip it.
For these tests, I was arcing to a grounded screw on a wall
switch. The violet wand in use made its high voltage
"ground" connection to neutral (not ground or hot) so
it was the high voltage and not 117VAC tripping the GFCI.
If the GFCI uses a very sensitive differencial current sensing
relay as opposed to solid state electronices to sense the
ground fault, than it has a much higher chance of surviving
(although the high voltage could still cause much havoc).
GFCI's built into extension cords are hard to find. You
can cut the end off an ordinary heavy three wire extension
cord and wire it to a normal GFCI installed in a electrical
box, however, for a very nice GFCI protected extension
cord.
I still recommend, however, that you still:
- determine where the high voltage "ground" connection
is made. Hot, neutral, or ground? Is the plug
reversable (in which case hot and neutral can be
switched)? Rewire if it is possible the connection
is to hot or the cord can be reversed. Consider
rewiring if it is to neutral.
- Always test the AC outlet and any extension cords used
with an AC outlet checker. Reversed hot and neutral
can be deadly if your wand uses neutral for the
high voltage "ground". Open ground can be deadly
if the violet wand uses AC ground for its high voltage
"ground"; the wand will find its way to something
resembling "ground" and AC line hot lead is fine for
its purposes. In addition, open ground could lead
to destruction of the wand or the ac outlet due to
internal arcing.
I have some information on the GFCI issue on my web page
as well although I have added some information here which
I should add there as well.
scott
Hey, thanks for all the responses to my question, although I must say
that I am more confused now than before!! I have ordered the book
"JUICE" from amazon, hoping that may clear some things up before I
actually order an item. Is a TENS unit the same or similar to the
Folsom boxes? Any one unit better than another? I have seen some on
the websited recommended to me for around $100.00. Would these units
compare favorably to a folsom box? I apologise for being so ignorant,
but I don't want to buy the wrong item and waste a lot of money! I plan
on using some attachments with the unit, and just want to buy the
correct one first.
Scott
Hans
>I have ordered the book "JUICE" from amazon, hoping that
>may clear some things up before I actually order an item.
We got the book while we were in the US last summer, and
I think it's just about the best reference on this topic. If I were
you I'd definitely wait until I got it. I think you'll find it will clear
up all the questions you may still have on electric play.
Hans
Faustopheles
scott <har...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hey, thanks for all the responses to my question, although I must
say
This message may further add to your confusion :-). It includes
a lot of information I did not include before. But seriously,
confusion is much better than a false sense of confidence. This
is complicated stuff and you need to:
- have a good understanding of electricity/electronics
- have an understanding of high voltage (if using a high
voltage device).
- have a good understanding of physiology
Or:
- Act on very specific advice of someone who does have the
above knowledge and knows the specific health conditions
of the "victim"
- Use only the settings, electrode placements, and attachments
specifically recommended by your expert. Do not color
outside the lines.
- Do not use on other people besides those about whom you
consulted your experts, or who meet the exact health
criteria set forward by the experts.
I am only being slightly conservative here. Electricity can
do some pretty odd things. Murphy's law is as important as
Ohm's law.
> "JUICE" from amazon, hoping that may clear some things up before I
Yes, I do recomend you read Juice before you do any electrical play;
then check my website (url below), if you didn't already, for
corrections to the book and additional info.
> actually order an item. Is a TENS unit the same or similar to the
> Folsom boxes? Any one unit better than another? I have seen some on
The folsom units are essentially TENS units. However, I have not
been able to locate decent specifications on the web, including
the manufacturer's web site (http://www.folsomelectric.com/).
That is enough reason not to buy their unit, let alone pay more
for it. They do make a variety of insertable electrodes; they
are a little pricey but likely to be much better than the aluminum
foil and tape contraption.
Differences between the two PSG units: the basic can operate
off an AC adapter; the max cannot. The pulse rate control on
the MAX can apparently be set to disable the pulsing (which
probably means continuous pulses at a high frequency). The
PSG-MAX apparently produces stronger pulses with shorter duration
(which might be the same energy but apparently feels more intense).
The PSG-MAX allows you to generate pulse bursts.
Both the PSG-202 and PSG-MAX units have on/off buttons for each
channel.
Fine Tens PSG-202 PSG-MAX
Output channels: 2 2 2
Waveform ? ? ?
Output A intensity: off,0-80ma 0-??? 0-???
Output B intensity: off,0-80ma 0-??? 0-???
(higher than
PSG 202)
Pulse Frequency: 2Hz-150Hz 15Hz-200Hz 15Hz-200Hz???
Pulse Width: 50uS-250uS Yes, range??? Yes, range???
(lower than
PSG-202).
Mode: normal/burst/mod normal only? normal/burst?
Modulation: simultaneous A/B none? alternate A/B
Auto shutoff: 20 minutes none? none?
Power supply: 9V battery 9V battery 9V battery
opt. AC adapt
Output connections: min. phone plug min phone? min phone?
Probe connections 0.080 probe tip 0.080? 0.080?
Price: $100 $194 $279
^ ----www.stockroom.com-----
www.diversified--services.com
Modes (Fine TENS)
Normal: Continuous with adjustable pulse width and rate
Modulation: contract 4 sec, relax 1 seconds
adjustable pulse width and rate.
Burst: 0.2second off, 0.2second on
Turning either intensity control on will turn the unit on.
The mini-phone plug is similar to a mono earphone jack on
audio equipment. The probe connections are the same size
as a standard multimeter probe tip. This means that
certain multimeter accessories will fit (such as aligator
clips for connecting to a wartenburg wheel).
Advantec II TENS
Output channels: 2
Waveform: unipolar?
Maximum volts: 50V into 1000 ohm
Pulse Rate: 2Hz-120Hz
Pulse Width: 50us-250us
Burst rate: 8 pulses per burst
2 bursts per second
Mode: Normal/burst/Modulated
Power source: 9V batery
Advantec TENS Modulation mode ramps between 50pps and 100pps over
4 seconds.
EMS units often have 4 output channels but less control over
the pulse rate and/or pulse frequency. They may provide more control
over the modulation (on time, off time, ramp up, ramp down). Some
units have external inputs to enable the outputs (used by physical
therapists for manual or automatic control).
One such unit had a fixed frequency of 65hz and a pulse width of 200hz.
http://www.advanteq.com/ has specifications and manuals online
for their TENS units. These units are sold by prescription only.
The output intensity on the FINE TENS are specified in terms of
milliamps but the voltage is probably what is really adjusted
(probably over the range 0-80V or so) and skin/body resistance is
probably assumed to be around 1K ohm (between electrodes). This
adjustment of voltage and not current (the parameter you really
care about) is likely to be common to almost all TENS units
including the PSG-202, PSG-MAX, and FINE TENS).
Do not use an AC adapter with a unit which was not intended for it
or an AC adapter other than the one supplied by the manufacturer
(yes you see lots of warnings like this when they aren't important
but in this case do heed the warning). It is important that
a TENS unit be isolated from ground and the AC line. Normally,
the two channels are isolated from each other and the TENS unit
itself by a small signal transformer inside the unit. A second
level of isolation is provided by running off a battery or
an isolated, ungrounded AC adapter. Two levels of isolation
are a requirement for safe use.
Note that there was apparently an ANSI standard published for
TENS units on 5/20/86.
The FDA has labelling recomendations for TENS units:
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ode/2246.html
I stumbled across a $94 EMS unit:
http://www.chirostore.com/catalog/items/item24.htm
Sparta surgical EMS-400. 0-100Ma, 2-120Hz, fixed 250us with pulse.
Dual output (unlike many EMS units), syncronous/continuous/alternate.
On ramp 0-8 seconds, cycle on/off 1-30 seconds.
They also have other EMS units.
> the websited recommended to me for around $100.00. Would these units
> compare favorably to a folsom box? I apologise for being so ignorant,
> but I don't want to buy the wrong item and waste a lot of money! I
plan
> on using some attachments with the unit, and just want to buy the
> correct one first.
> Scott
My suspicion is that the PSG-202 is pretty similar to the FINE TENS.
The PSG-MAX does not replace either of those. It apparently
is intended for more intense stimulation but cannot be adjusted
to provide the same level of stimulation as a normal TENS (or
the PSG-202). "level" in this case may be a combination of
intensity and quality or feel. For floggers, for example,
"sting" and "thud" are different qualitatively not merely
quantitatively. It is really sad that the PSG-MAX was not
designed to do everything the 202 did, and more.
I would get the FINE TENS and if you wanted a second unit with
a different, and more severe, feel, check out the PSG-MAX (but
only if you can get some decent specifications from them).
Before I bought the FINE TENS, I looked at specfications for
many units online; its specifications were fairly typical.