[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Broken Link"
Timothy W. Lynch
WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
DS9's "Broken Link" await.
In brief: "Intriguing" is perhaps the best word. Not riveting, but I'm
curious.
======
Written by: Robert Hewitt Wolfe & Ira Steven Behr (teleplay);
George A. Brozak (story)
Directed by: Les Landau (?)
Brief summary: A mysterious illness forces Odo to return and seek
help from his people -- where he will also face judgment for killing
another Changeling.
======
I've got strangely ambivalent feelings about "Broken Link". It
managed to draw a number of disparate threads together, tying off a
few issues while opening a couple of big ones up ... and yet
somehow, I'm left feeling of two minds about the show.
Let's start with the core of the show. The central story, Odo's return
to face the music, generally worked just fine. Ever since "The
Adversary", last year's finale, showed Odo killing a Changeling, it
was clear that eventually he'd have to face judgment for that -- and
somehow "infecting" Odo with a condition that would force him to
return home strikes me as a very plausible Founder tactic.
It also helps that the presentation of Odo's plight worked as well as it
did. I wasn't enchanted with his first "attack" in the show's teaser,
but his grim demeanor in the infirmary, resigned to his fate, proved
compelling -- and his aborted attempt to capture the smuggler also
made the loss of control a bit more vivid. Most everything centering
around Odo, from the infirmary to the Defiant to his stride to
judgment, came off well and added to the episode's power.
That leaves a lot of little details that didn't come off so well, though,
and perhaps it's those details which are leaving me feeling so mixed.
One of the things which bugged me the most was Kira. I worried
after "Body Parts" that Kira's pregnancy might have a negative impact
on the character; while I'm not prepared yet to say that that's
unequivocally the case, "Broken Link" did nothing to ease those
concerns. This Kira was mostly a laughingstock; the scene involving
her the most covered everyone making side bets on how many
consecutive sneezes she'd make. The scene where she and Bashir
helped Odo to the Defiant was well done, but the rest of Kira's scenes
tended to put her in scenes where we were meant to chuckle at her. I
don't like that; it weakens the character, and reminds me too much of
the second season of "Lois & Clark", where Lois was often put into
scenes that seemed designed to humiliate her. (I don't know if the
third season was the same way, because the second was enough to
make us stop watching.) If this is what we have to look forward to as
a result of this storyline, then I'd just as soon opt out.
Garak, surprisingly enough, was a mixed bag. Oh, Andrew
Robinson was fine -- Garak's insistence to Sisko that "if there's one
thing Cardassians excel at, it's *conversation*" was a treat, and
Garak's stated motivations for coming on board seem plausible, even
if I suspect he really wanted to rig the Defiant all along. However, the
Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf; it bugged me
because Worf was apparently dumb enough to deliberately leave his
backup behind, *and* Garak didn't manage to scrape up some kind of
weapon or at least alarm system for himself; and it bugged me
symbolically. I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
"message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
(Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
physical prowess.) Between that and Kira, I was left feeling a little
lackluster about characterization this time around.
The trip to the Founders' world was interesting, most notably because
Sisko was so honest with himself about how little chance he had to
resist anything. No sensors? Fine. Dax out as navigator? Sure.
Stuck waiting for days? Okay. Sisko, at least, recognizes that the
Defiant is outclassed when it comes to tackling the Founders and the
Jem'Hadar and acts accordingly -- and given all the "resistance against
hopeless odds" shows that tend to crop up, it's nice to see a little quiet
acknowledgment of reality once in a while. (I thought the "attack" on
O'Brien was confusingly presented, though; I wasn't at all clear on
what the Jem'Hadar did to hurt him so much beyond just grab him,
and I've seen the scene several times now.)
Before I get to the ending, there were a number of little moments that
worked well -- things that were pretty much incidental, but felt so
right that they were good ideas to include. Among those:
-- Garak's note to the security guards about "accessorizing" their
uniforms. Priceless.
-- Dax's amused reaction to O'Brien and the others feeling "naked"
without the cloaking device active.
-- Bashir's mention of contacting Dr. Mora Pol during his
investigations of Odo's illness. I'm not sure I'd have thought of that
myself, but I *should* have, given how long Mora worked with Odo.
Excellent.
-- the Founders' spokesbeing putting Garak in his place in about thirty
seconds when he asks about survivors. "They're dead. *You're*
dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they
attacked us. I believe that answers your question." That line, more
than almost anything I've seen in two years, really got across the
implacability of the Founders effectively.
-- and possibly the best moment of the show, Sisko stopping Bashir
from absent-mindedly skittering a stone across the Great Link. It felt
just perfect; who hasn't skittered a stone across a lake during a dull
moment? Bad idea here, though. :-)
That brings up the two climactic moments in the fifth act: Odo's
punishment, and Odo's exposure of Gowron. This wasn't entirely
positive, but it was mostly good. Odo's punishment, in general, came
off quite well -- it's a logical punishment, it makes Odo even more of
an outcast than he was (geez, who *isn't* an outcast from his/her
people these days on DS9?), it's a major impact (or at least, it had
better be), and it takes the character new places. Odo's
acknowledgment that he was permanently severed from his people in
the same moment that he finally came to understand them was
particularly poignant. About the only difficulty I have with it is that in
having an omnipotent, mysterious race make someone human as a
punishment, I was reminded of TNG's "Deja Q" in more ways than I
can count (particularly when Odo felt hungry). That's not necessarily
a problem, but for a groundbreaking moment it shouldn't feel
shopworn.
Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe. Used
once, as it was in "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" last year, that's
interesting; used twice ("The Adversary"), it's worrying; used a zillion
times, it's a cop-out. The Klingon stuff was interesting because of the
new situations it created -- making it simply an offshoot of Founder
plotting is treading the same ground, and more importantly suggesting
that the reset button could be pressed again if the Founders are ever
defeated. I'll look forward to details about how long Gowron's been
a Founder, but that's about the only part of the "revelation" scene at
the end of the show I liked.
On the whole, then, "Broken Link" managed to be fairly effective
despite making two or three of what I consider sizable mistakes. A
few shorter notes:
-- On credits: the reason I put a question mark after Les Landau's
name on the directing credit is because I only saw it on a press release.
Unless I just missed it (and I went over the early parts of the show
enough that I don't think I did), the directing credit was flat-out
*missing* for this show. What gives?
-- Also in credits, this is the second consecutive week that Garak has
been credited as played by Andrew *J.* Robinson rather than simply
Andrew Robinson. Not a big deal, but I'm curious about what
prompted it.
-- I didn't particularly like the Odo/Quark scene. Sure, Quark's
posturing was mostly to buck up Odo and get across that Quark
actually cared about him -- but coming right on the heels of "Body
Parts", to have Quark acting like he's smuggler king of the quadrant is
just annoying.
-- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
-- The music felt particularly strong this week, both on
"Foundersworld" and as the Jem'Hadar came sweeping in.
That about covers it. So, wrapping up:
Writing: A good story in its fundamentals, but with some iffy
characterization at times and a "revelation" that felt
unnecessary.
Directing: Some nice pull-backs while on "Foundersworld", and
good work with Odo's walk to the Defiant.
Acting: Stellar work from Auberjonois, and solid work from almost
everyone else. Salome Jens (the female Changeling) was
probably doing the best I've seen from her.
OVERALL: 7. There are better ways to end the season, but there are
certainly far worse as well.
NEXT WEEK: A rerun of "Our Man Bashir". And now I have
*two* end-of-season reviews to do. (Look for the "Voyager" one
first.)
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"I don't know -- maybe it's just being in the same room with so many
naked men."
-- Dax
--
Copyright 1996, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
Scott
>WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
>DS9's "Broken Link" await.
>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
>deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
The first question that actually occurred to me was whether the Founders
are trying to fully discredit Odo by feeding him false information (which
would lead to Odo being the cause of Fed/Klin hostilities rather than the
Founders). That would be a real punishment... no longer a changeling and -
now that Odo's human - a pariah of humanity.
Paul S. Manson
On behalf of myself, especially myself, and Derek in England and Daniella
in Toronto, to both whom I forward the Lynch Reviews, a sincere thank you
for your entertaining and enlightening reviews through seasons 4 and 2
respectively of DS9 and VOY.
Your efforts are appreciated and enjoyed. We await your season summaries.
Please rise and accept the standing ovation of we three and the other
denizens of this Newsgroup.
Paul S. Manson
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
pmanson-in...@gensler.com
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From: pma...@inforamp.net (Paul S. Manson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: [DS9] [VOY] Lynch's Spoiler Reviews
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:06:57 GMT
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tlynch-alumna...@gensler.com
WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
DS9's "Broken Link" await.
Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
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From: tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.reviews,rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: [DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Broken Link"
Followup-To: rec.arts.startrek.current
Date: 21 Jun 1996 23:37:03 GMT
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Ted McCoy
In article <4qfbmv$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
>DS9's "Broken Link" await.
>after "Body Parts" that Kira's pregnancy might have a negative impact
>on the character; while I'm not prepared yet to say that that's
>unequivocally the case, "Broken Link" did nothing to ease those
>concerns. This Kira was mostly a laughingstock; the scene involving
>her the most covered everyone making side bets on how many
>consecutive sneezes she'd make.
Hmm. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the episode made a laughingstock
out of Kira...but it definitely was content to use her for little more than
comic relief. I don't know. On the one hand, I enjoyed all of her scenes
in this episode (much more than her scenes in "Body Parts," for instance).
On the other hand, there's been an ongoing trend throughout this season
towards softening Kira as a character, and I have some problems with that. I
guess it's realistic for Kira to assume a softer, more stereotypical "female"
role, now that she's moved beyond some of the grittier elements of her past
(especially considering that episodes have explicitly shown her dealing with
and working her way beyond those aspects of her past). But...I don't know.
I can think of more interesting directions in which the writers could've
taken Kira's character. I guess what it comes down to is that I found the
old Kira much more interesting than this new one.
However, the
>Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
>as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
>been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
>Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf; it bugged me
>because Worf was apparently dumb enough to deliberately leave his
>backup behind, *and* Garak didn't manage to scrape up some kind of
>weapon or at least alarm system for himself;
I think that Garak was acting in a state of panic, after his conversation with
that Founder. (I know her comments scared the hell out of me, anyway.) As for
Worf not bringing a backup, he probably just didn't want to risk the Jem'Hadar
catching on that something was wrong, and I imagine he was confident of his
ability to handle of Garak.
>and it bugged me
>symbolically. I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
>"message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
>better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
>(Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
>Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
>physical prowess.)
Eh. I think you're reading way too much into this. At least I hope so,
because I wouldn't like such a message any more than you do.
>(I thought the "attack" on
>O'Brien was confusingly presented, though; I wasn't at all clear on
>what the Jem'Hadar did to hurt him so much beyond just grab him,
>and I've seen the scene several times now.)
Looked to me like some sort of pressure point attack. (Saw a great fight on
Xena a few weeks ago, in which both Xena and her opponent were experts on
utilizing human pressure points to disable one's opponent -- tapping the
opponent in the right place so as to disable an arm, immobilize a leg, snap
a neck, or even stop a heart. Xena rules.)
>That brings up the two climactic moments in the fifth act: Odo's
>punishment, and Odo's exposure of Gowron. This wasn't entirely
>positive, but it was mostly good. Odo's punishment, in general, came
>off quite well -- it's a logical punishment, it makes Odo even more of
>an outcast than he was (geez, who *isn't* an outcast from his/her
>people these days on DS9?), it's a major impact (or at least, it had
>better be), and it takes the character new places. Odo's
>acknowledgment that he was permanently severed from his people in
>the same moment that he finally came to understand them was
>particularly poignant.
Agreed. This one development packed all of the emotional impact that was
missing from the plights of the characters on Voyager.
>About the only difficulty I have with it is that in
>having an omnipotent, mysterious race make someone human as a
>punishment, I was reminded of TNG's "Deja Q" in more ways than I
>can count (particularly when Odo felt hungry). That's not necessarily
>a problem, but for a groundbreaking moment it shouldn't feel
>shopworn.
Variation on a theme, that's all. Odo's situation is different than Q's,
because Odo has spent the past few years struggling to find his identity
between a world of solids and a world of his own people -- and increasingly
realizing how much he needed his own people. Far richer context than Q's
situation had.
>Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder.
I have to ask: did he undergo a blood test during "The Way of the Warrior"?
Anybody remember?
>However,
>deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
>once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
>differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
>about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe. Used
>once, as it was in "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" last year, that's
>interesting; used twice ("The Adversary"), it's worrying; used a zillion
>times, it's a cop-out.
No, I don't see this as a cop-out at all. The Founders have basically been
at war with the Alpha Quadrant for two seasons...but they're carrying out
this war on their own terms. Paranoia, suspicion, distrust, turning empires
against each other. What makes this especially interesting is that they are
manipulating the Alpha Quadrant forces by playing on existing fears, forces,
and mindsets -- twisting these existing factors to their own purposes. Many
of these recent developments wouldn't have happened if the Dominion hadn't
appeared, but it's worth noting that the Alpha Quadrant players aren't doing
anything that they weren't, on some level, prepared to do even before the
Dominion appeared. (The earth crisis revealed that there were people on earth
willing to go to dangerous lengths to defend their home; the manueverings of
the Obsidian Order and that Romulan group last season reflected power struggles
within both Romulan and Cardassian cultures; and the Klingon-Federation
conflict reflects sentiments explored at various times on TNG.)
>The Klingon stuff was interesting because of the
>new situations it created -- making it simply an offshoot of Founder
>plotting is treading the same ground, and more importantly suggesting
>that the reset button could be pressed again if the Founders are ever
>defeated.
Okay, here I agree with you. Actually, I'll go one step beyond what you said:
this suggests that the reset button could be pressed *before* the Founders
are even defeated, just as it was in the chaos-on-earth two-parter earlier
this season. After all, once it is revealed that the Klingons were tricked
into playing the Dominion's game, everybody would have ample reason to
forgive whatever misunderstandings may have occurred in order to show a
united front against the Dominion.
Honestly, I'm having trouble getting too upset about this. This being Trek,
an interesting reset button is still far more than par for the course. As
far as I'm concerned, this Klingon stuff is still interesting even if it
resets, because it at least provides the writers an opportunity to explore
some territory which they might otherwise never have considered.
>-- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
>an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
>and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
>"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
I really disliked the first Aroya scene. Felt very soap operaish. However,
the second one worked for me, mostly because of the way Odo's predicament
reflavored his situation with Aroya.
>Writing: A good story in its fundamentals, but with some iffy
> characterization at times and a "revelation" that felt
> unnecessary.
>Directing: Some nice pull-backs while on "Foundersworld", and
> good work with Odo's walk to the Defiant.
>Acting: Stellar work from Auberjonois, and solid work from almost
> everyone else. Salome Jens (the female Changeling) was
> probably doing the best I've seen from her.
Mostly agreed, except the writing bothered me less than it did you.
>OVERALL: 7. There are better ways to end the season, but there are
>certainly far worse as well.
8+. I'm not entirely happy with the way the Gowron revelation was handled,
and there were a few scenes (like that first bit with Aroya) which I could've
done without. But all in all, this was everything that Voyager's finale
wasn't (in the sense that I am very interested in seeing what happens to DS9's
characters next season, especially Odo, whereas I really couldn't care less
who lives and who dies on Voyager, with maybe one or two exceptions).
Ted
sszeller-us...@gensler.com
>WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
>DS9's "Broken Link" await.
>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
The first question that actually occurred to me was whether the Founders
are trying to fully discredit Odo by feeding him false information (which
would lead to Odo being the cause of Fed/Klin hostilities rather than the
Founders). That would be a real punishment... no longer a changeling and -
now that Odo's human - a pariah of humanity.
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From: ssze...@us.oracle.com (Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: [DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Broken Link"
Date: 22 Jun 1996 00:06:14 GMT
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pmanson-inforamp...@gensler.com
On behalf of myself, especially myself, and Derek in England and Daniella
in Toronto, to both whom I forward the Lynch Reviews, a sincere thank you
for your entertaining and enlightening reviews through seasons 4 and 2
respectively of DS9 and VOY.
Your efforts are appreciated and enjoyed. We await your season summaries.
Please rise and accept the standing ovation of we three and the other
denizens of this Newsgroup.
Paul S. Manson
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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From: pma...@inforamp.net (Paul S. Manson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: [DS9] [VOY] Lynch's Spoiler Reviews
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:06:57 GMT
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From: pmanson-in...@gensler.com (pma...@inforamp.net)
Reply-To: pmanson-in...@gensler.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Distribution: world
Subject: [DS9] [VOY] Lynch's Spoiler Reviews
Date: 22 Jun 1996 18:00:30 GMT
Message-ID: <382677811...@gensler.com>
Organization: Gensler and Associates/Architects
Lines: 33
Brian the Snorf
>Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
>deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
I dunno...I suppose Gowron being a founder isn't _abosolutely
nescessary_, but it does make sense. I guess the writers felt (and I did
as well) that some excuse was needed for his rash actions in "Way of the
Warrior". This may seem like a copout to some (making him a changeling),
but it just fits in well, for me at least, in the context. True, the
Klingons and the Federation have not always been buddies, and _yes_,
something like what happened concerning the Dominion and Cardassian
empires could split them. But Gowron's declaration that (and this is even
after the council members have been blood tested) the Alpha Quadrant will
be "safer with the Klingons in control" just doesn't fit with the way his
character has acted in the past.
Anyways, haven't you noticed how weird Robert O' Reiley's been playing
him lately? :) That must mean something!!! <g>
-Brian the Snorf
________
/ \
____/ O \
( \________________________________________ /
_____/ \ /
\_____ MAY THE SNORF BE WITH YOU! \____/
\ http://www.teleport.com/~snorfle/index.html /
\________________________________________________/
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |
///// ///// ///// /////
Bill Daras
> -- and possibly the best moment of the show, Sisko stopping Bashir from
> absent-mindedly skittering a stone across the Great
> Link. It felt just perfect; who hasn't skittered a stone across a lake
> during a dull moment? Bad idea here, though. :-)
You've got to wonder what would have happened if he did, or if he
tried to take his socks and shoes off and soak his feet.....
Bill,
--
the...@neca.com
http://www.neca.com/~thefly/
------------------------------
Life Is Very Realistic,Oh-la-la,Kiss The Sky,Everything You Know Is Wrong,What Did The First Punk Rock Girl Wear To Your School (FEAR!),A Friend Is Someone Who Lets You Help,A Liar Won't Belive Anyone Else,Lemon,Next On Springer.....,Etc.,It's Your World,You Can Change It,It's Your World,You Can Change It,It's Your World,You Can Change It,It's Your World,You Can Change
Expect Nothing Except Nothing
Amos Yung
tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> (I thought the "attack" on
>O'Brien was confusingly presented, though; I wasn't at all clear on
>what the Jem'Hadar did to hurt him so much beyond just grab him,
>and I've seen the scene several times now.)
Two word: Chest hair.
Stuart Hargreaves
pma...@inforamp.net (Paul S. Manson) attempted to convey that:
>
>On behalf of myself, especially myself, and Derek in England and Daniella
>in Toronto, to both whom I forward the Lynch Reviews, a sincere thank you
>for your entertaining and enlightening reviews through seasons 4 and 2
>respectively of DS9 and VOY.
>
>Your efforts are appreciated and enjoyed. We await your season summaries.
>
>Please rise and accept the standing ovation of we three and the other
>denizens of this Newsgroup.
>
>Paul S. Manson
>Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Agreed.. while I never 100% agree with Tim, he writes excellent and
thoughtful reviews -- yay, intelligence on the net; I thought it was a
lost cause!!!
Stuart Hargreaves
Also from Toronto, Ontario.. ok, 40 mins outside Toronto.. whatever..
---
sh...@hookup.net
Ian
tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>Garak, surprisingly enough, was a mixed bag. Oh, Andrew
>Robinson was fine -- Garak's insistence to Sisko that "if there's one
>thing Cardassians excel at, it's *conversation*" was a treat, and
>Garak's stated motivations for coming on board seem plausible, even
>if I suspect he really wanted to rig the Defiant all along. However, the
>Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
>as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
>been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
>Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf;
Worf is a VERY good and experienced fighter. Bat'Leth champion of the Klingon
Empire, and all that. He's also bigger and stronger than Garak. And remember,
Obsidian Order members are _spies_, Worf is a security officer and a warrior
who trains constantly (Garak is a tailor...)
>Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
>deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
I think it is. Thinking back, Gowron was always portrayed as a relatively
_wise_ leader. In the episode where Kahless comes back, he makes a rather
enlightened speech about the difficulty of fighting an idea (showing wisdom
atypical for a Klingon). Gowron did not get to be Chancellor because he was
stupid - and with the Dominion threat, even with internal political pressures,
the _real_ Gowron is smart enough to know that war with the Federation is a
bad idea. In contrast, Gowron as portrayed in the announcements of Broken Link
was BEGGING for the Federation to go to war. Federation colonies begging for a
PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE, for crying out loud. They have to be pretty scared for the
Federation to be talking about stuff like that.
>once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
>differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
>about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe.
Actually, Gowron may be a changeling, but the Klingon people as a whole are
quite supportive of the war with the Federation. In Way of the Warrior,even if
Gowron had been a changeling at the time, he was MORE restrained than the
"real" Klingons. Actually, that leads me to believe that he may not have been
a changeling at the time.
> Used
>once, as it was in "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" last year, that's
>interesting; used twice ("The Adversary"), it's worrying; used a zillion
>times, it's a cop-out.
No. Used a zillion times, it is realistic. And actually, this is the ONLY
major figure that has ever been replaced by a shapeshifter. Colonel Lovok was
just a spy, and the fellow on The Adversary was just a saboteur. Gowron is the
leader of a major civilization.
Not to mention, Homeworld/Paradise lost has already shown how it can be
dangerous to blame everything on the Dominion, because sometimes they aren't
responsible at all.
>-- I didn't particularly like the Odo/Quark scene. Sure, Quark's
>posturing was mostly to buck up Odo and get across that Quark
>actually cared about him -- but coming right on the heels of "Body
>Parts", to have Quark acting like he's smuggler king of the quadrant is
>just annoying.
Why? Most of his illegal deals were _not_ with Ferengi, so they wouldn't be
affected.
>-- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
>an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
>and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
>"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
He has? I can't remember any.
JD
In <4qhq2l$m...@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> mc...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ted McCoy)
writes:
>>One of the things which bugged me the most was Kira. I worried
>>after "Body Parts" that Kira's pregnancy might have a negative impact
>>on the character; while I'm not prepared yet to say that that's
>>unequivocally the case, "Broken Link" did nothing to ease those
>>concerns. This Kira was mostly a laughingstock; the scene involving
>>her the most covered everyone making side bets on how many
>>consecutive sneezes she'd make.
I thought it was funny, yes... it was supposed to be. Nothing wrong with
that... Kira wasn't a laughing stock... she just acted a little funny for a
bit...
>Hmm. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the episode made a laughingstock
>out of Kira...but it definitely was content to use her for little more than
>comic relief. I don't know. On the one hand, I enjoyed all of her scenes
>in this episode (much more than her scenes in "Body Parts," for instance).
>On the other hand, there's been an ongoing trend throughout this season
>towards softening Kira as a character, and I have some problems with that. I
>guess it's realistic for Kira to assume a softer, more stereotypical "female"
>role, now that she's moved beyond some of the grittier elements of her past
Male or female, after living a non-terrorist life & feeling safe for a while,
you too are probably going to stop yelling at everyone and wanting to kill
them, and try to develop some friendships... is it "female" to want some
friends, to not try and bitch and moan every 5 minutes, and to want to smile
every once in a while??
>However, the
>>Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
>>as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
>>been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
>>Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf; it bugged me
>>because Worf was apparently dumb enough to deliberately leave his
>>backup behind, *and* Garak didn't manage to scrape up some kind of
>>weapon or at least alarm system for himself;
Garak was initially trying to find out about Taine, I'm sure... and when he
found out all were killed, and the deep hate it seemed the Founder had for him
and his people, Garak was shittin' bricks & looking for anything he could do
before he lost his chance... and not to look suspicious.
>>and it bugged me
>>symbolically. I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
>>"message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
>>better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
>>(Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
>>Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
>>physical prowess.)
I feel like I'm reading the interpretation of poetry here... don't be absurd.
>>About the only difficulty I have with it is that in
>>having an omnipotent, mysterious race make someone human as a
>>punishment, I was reminded of TNG's "Deja Q" in more ways than I
>>can count (particularly when Odo felt hungry). That's not necessarily
>>a problem, but for a groundbreaking moment it shouldn't feel
>>shopworn.
You're comparing apples and oranges...
>
>Variation on a theme, that's all. Odo's situation is different than
Q's,
>because Odo has spent the past few years struggling to find his
identity
>between a world of solids and a world of his own people -- and
increasingly
>realizing how much he needed his own people. Far richer context than
Q's
>situation had.
>I have to ask: did he undergo a blood test during "The Way of the
Warrior"?
>Anybody remember?
Nope...no Klingons were tested
--
,,,
(o-o)
==-=-=-=---.oOO--(_)--OOo.---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-==
Jean Dupree
Spod Extraordinaire & Overall Silly Person
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1073/
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
Junsok Yang
In article <4qidps$b...@news.nstn.ca>, nstn...@fox.nstn.ca says...
>>-- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
>>an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
>>and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
>>"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
>He has? I can't remember any.
How soon do people forget. The following is from a first season episode
of DS9 (I forget the episode, though):
"I'll never understand the humanoid need to... couple."
...Odo
"You've never coupled?" ...Quark
"I choose not to. Too many compromises. You want to watch a
caronet tournament, she wants to listen to music. So you
compromise. You listen to music. You like Earth jazz, she prefers
Klingon opera. So you compromise. You listen to Klingon opera.
So here you were, ready to have a nice night watching the caronet
match, and you wind up spending an agonizing evening listening to
Klingon opera." ...Odo
(Before you start to wonder, I had this dialogue saved on my hard disk;
along with pages of other stuff. My memory is actually really rotten.)
I do miss the outside observer aspect of Odo; it has been downplayed a lot
in the last couple of years (somewhat taken over by Quark) On the other
hand, given the situation he is in, both with respect to the Dominion and
Kira, it would be interesting to see him start dating. Maybe I can pick up
some hints. :)
BTW, most of my married friends describe their marriages in the above
way... Not a great incentive to get married.
--
*********************************************************************
"Of course life is bizarre. The more bizarre it gets, the more
interesting it is. The only way to approach it is to make yourself
some popcorn and enjoy the show." ...David Gerrold
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu)
(yan...@minerva.cis.yale.edu)
I Never Met A Chocolate I Didn't Like
In article <4qim9l$c...@news.ycc.yale.edu>, yan...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Junsok Yang) writes:
> In article <4qidps$b...@news.nstn.ca>, nstn...@fox.nstn.ca says...
>>
>>tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>
>>>an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
>>>and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
>>>"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
>
>
> How soon do people forget. The following is from a first season episode
> of DS9 (I forget the episode, though):
>
> "I'll never understand the humanoid need to... couple."
> ...Odo
> "You've never coupled?" ...Quark
> "I choose not to. Too many compromises. You want to watch a
> caronet tournament, she wants to listen to music. So you
> compromise. You listen to music. You like Earth jazz, she prefers
> Klingon opera. So you compromise. You listen to Klingon opera.
> So here you were, ready to have a nice night watching the caronet
> match, and you wind up spending an agonizing evening listening to
> Klingon opera." ...Odo
>
> (Before you start to wonder, I had this dialogue saved on my hard disk;
> along with pages of other stuff. My memory is actually really rotten.)
Ooh, I love that scene. That's from "A Man Alone".
He also had some great lines in "The Forsaken", the first time Lwaxana
started chasing him (yes, I have them written down) :-)
"Frankly, in my humble opinion, most of you humanoids spend far too much time
on your respective mating rituals".
"Procreation does not require changing how you smell, or writing bad poetry,
or sacrificing various plants to serve as tokens of affection".
> I do miss the outside observer aspect of Odo; it has been downplayed a lot
> in the last couple of years (somewhat taken over by Quark) On the other
> hand, given the situation he is in, both with respect to the Dominion and
> Kira, it would be interesting to see him start dating. Maybe I can pick up
> some hints. :)
Yeah, I guess it would be interesting. I hope he develops better taste,
though, that Aroya woman seems like such a bimbo. Odo can do better than
that; she really doesn't seem like her type. BTW, anyone else think she's
a changeling? Odo did become ill right after she touched him. I think
that's how he got infected.
Debbie
Junsok Yang
In article <snorfle-2206...@ip-pdx11-08.teleport.com>,
sno...@teleport.com says...
> I dunno...I suppose Gowron being a founder isn't _abosolutely
>nescessary_, but it does make sense. I guess the writers felt (and I did
>as well) that some excuse was needed for his rash actions in "Way of the
>Warrior". This may seem like a copout to some (making him a changeling),
>but it just fits in well, for me at least, in the context. True, the
>Klingons and the Federation have not always been buddies, and _yes_,
>something like what happened concerning the Dominion and Cardassian
>empires could split them. But Gowron's declaration that (and this is even
>after the council members have been blood tested) the Alpha Quadrant will
>be "safer with the Klingons in control" just doesn't fit with the way his
>character has acted in the past.
I'm not quite sure about that. It doesn't explain why Gowron decided to
cease fighting when all of his advisors were roaring for him to take on the
Federation fleet. (And a continuing fight would have been more constructive
for the Founders.)
I tend to think that at the "Way of the Warrior" it was one of his
advisors who was the Changeling, then finding that Gowron was not acting as
they wanted him to, they took over Gowron's role instead (or in addition.)
Timothy W. Lynch
Spoilers for "Broken Link":
>>Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
>>as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
>>been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
>>Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf;
>Worf is a VERY good and experienced fighter. Bat'Leth champion of the Klingon
>Empire, and all that. He's also bigger and stronger than Garak. And remember,
>Obsidian Order members are _spies_,
Correction: Obsidian Order members are also assassins -- and based on
past evidence, pretty good ones. I'm willing to grant that the terms
are a lot more even in a straight one-on-one confrontation in cramped
quarters than they would be anywhere else, but I don't think Garak
should have been sloppy enough to let such a situation occur.
>>Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
>>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>>questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
>>deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
>I think it is. Thinking back, Gowron was always portrayed as a relatively
>_wise_ leader.
??? This about the person whose most defining feature has always been
a bug-eyed look and a bugf*ck personality? (Gowron, that is, not you.
:-) ) Gowron is generally *canny*, I'll readily admit, but "wise" is
not a word I'd use.
As for why he's "begging" for a war which may not be smart ... I'd
much prefer to think of it as the arrogance of power than as a Founder
plot. Consider as a real-life example Saddam Hussein's willingness to
go to war five years ago. Gowron may not have the same estimate of
the Federation's fighting skills *or willingness to fight* as we do.
>>once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
>>differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
>>about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe.
>Actually, Gowron may be a changeling, but the Klingon people as a whole are
>quite supportive of the war with the Federation.
And therein lies the "out", I think. If Gowron's exposure ends the
war, then I'll write this off as another ill-fated use of the dreaded
reset button. If, on the other hand, this movement *survives* Gowron,
then I'll be a bit happier.
>> Used
>>once, as it was in "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" last year, that's
>>interesting; used twice ("The Adversary"), it's worrying; used a zillion
>>times, it's a cop-out.
>No. Used a zillion times, it is realistic.
Then the Founders are pretty boring adversaries, if that's their only
strategy.
>And actually, this is the ONLY
>major figure that has ever been replaced by a shapeshifter. Colonel Lovok was
>just a spy, and the fellow on The Adversary was just a saboteur.
Disagreed on both counts. Lovok was an integral part of Tain's
planning, and effectively directed the plot in such a way that it was
doomed. And Ambassador Krajensky (do I have that right?) was the one
who started the whole mission. Both times, they put events into
motion.
>>-- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
>>an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
>>and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
>>"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
>He has? I can't remember any.
Others have already tackled this, so I'm not going to get into it.
Tim Lynch
Michael Grello
The federation and klingon empire have always been pretty evenly matched.
If Gowran wasted resources battling the federation, then the founders
primary agenda (killing all the cardasians) would be compromised. That
founder pretty much said that on the show. Now, perhaps, they are in a
better position to fight.
hug a commie for Christ,
Mike <--- the last Jesus freak
voice of the religious LEFT
http://www.scsn.net/users/mgrello/
e-mail:mgr...@scsn.net
Bamfer
Scott (ssze...@us.oracle.com) wrote:
: >WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
: >Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
: >some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
: >questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
: >deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
: >*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
While that's true, another way to look at it is that the poor relations
aren't because of Founder plotting, but rather they are simply taking
advantage of an already bad and existing situation and making it worse.
By having Gowran be a changeling, he can better direct the actions of
the Klingon Empire by making decisions that turn out to be bad for both
the Klingons and the Federation, and more advantageous to the Founders.
One thing I do like, is that it explains Gowran's rather out of character
behavior in "Way of the Warrior" (*if* he *was* a changeling at that
time, we don't know when he did become a changeling).
: The first question that actually occurred to me was whether the Founders
: are trying to fully discredit Odo by feeding him false information (which
: would lead to Odo being the cause of Fed/Klin hostilities rather than the
: Founders). That would be a real punishment... no longer a changeling and -
: now that Odo's human - a pariah of humanity.
Now there is a nasty thought...
Sonja
--lans...@scf.nmsu.edu bam...@acca.nmsu.edu
"Independence limited, Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you my friend, Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend, Freedom with their exception"
-- "Eye of the Beholder", Metallica
Timothy W. Lynch
mc...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ted McCoy) writes:
>In article <4qfbmv$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>WARNING: Another year, another season finale -- spoilers for
>>DS9's "Broken Link" await.
[Worf/Garak]
>>and it bugged me
>>symbolically. I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
>>"message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
>>better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
>>(Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
>>Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
>>physical prowess.)
>Eh. I think you're reading way too much into this. At least I hope so,
>because I wouldn't like such a message any more than you do.
I hope I'm wrong, too, but it did kind of jump out at me -- and you'll
note that I have *not* been a member of the "let's bash everything
having to do with Worf" club so far this year.
>>(I thought the "attack" on
>>O'Brien was confusingly presented, though; I wasn't at all clear on
>>what the Jem'Hadar did to hurt him so much beyond just grab him,
>>and I've seen the scene several times now.)
>Looked to me like some sort of pressure point attack.
Works for me.
[Odo]
>>About the only difficulty I have with it is that in
>>having an omnipotent, mysterious race make someone human as a
>>punishment, I was reminded of TNG's "Deja Q" in more ways than I
>>can count (particularly when Odo felt hungry). That's not necessarily
>>a problem, but for a groundbreaking moment it shouldn't feel
>>shopworn.
>Variation on a theme, that's all. Odo's situation is different than Q's,
>because Odo has spent the past few years struggling to find his identity
>between a world of solids and a world of his own people -- and increasingly
>realizing how much he needed his own people. Far richer context than Q's
>situation had.
Oh, firmly agreed. It was a minor bit of "hey, wait a sec" annoyance,
not a fundamental flaw by any stretch.
>>Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
>>been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>>some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>>questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder.
>I have to ask: did he undergo a blood test during "The Way of the Warrior"?
Nope. General Martok did, as I recall, but no other Klingon was shown
to.
>>However,
>>deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>>*necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
>>once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
>>differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
>>about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe. Used
>>once, as it was in "Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast" last year, that's
>>interesting; used twice ("The Adversary"), it's worrying; used a zillion
>>times, it's a cop-out.
>No, I don't see this as a cop-out at all.
[much snipped]
What I think this argument is going to hinge on is whether it leads to
a reset button the way I've speculated. If so, it sounds like we'll
both be really annoyed. If not, you have no problem with it. I still
will, to some extent; I prefer to deal with characters acting out of
their own volition, not ones who are acting oddly because they're not
that character. (I remember being on the other side of this argument
during "Whispers" two years ago; there, though, it was a one-episode
story and something that explained everyone *else's* strange behavior,
not the person in question.) Being told in effect "oh, this happened
because Gowron isn't really Gowron" lessens the urge for me to wonder
what's gotten into Gowron.
If we had a lot of prominent Klingon characters *other* than Gowron,
I'd be far less irked -- but there really is no one else representing
the Empire at this point.
>Honestly, I'm having trouble getting too upset about this. This being Trek,
>an interesting reset button is still far more than par for the
>course.
True to an extent -- but after eight years, I'm getting extremely
tired of having to preface everything with "this being Trek". Dammit,
they can do good drama without reset-button cheats; and as such, I
don't intend to let up on them when they *do* use said cheats. (Yes,
this is all hypothetical so far; it's just a sore point that I'm tired
of having to defend. Nothing against you, Ted.)
>As
>far as I'm concerned, this Klingon stuff is still interesting even if it
>resets, because it at least provides the writers an opportunity to explore
>some territory which they might otherwise never have considered.
Agreed to a point, at least.
>But all in all, this was everything that Voyager's finale
>wasn't (in the sense that I am very interested in seeing what happens to DS9's
>characters next season, especially Odo, whereas I really couldn't care less
>who lives and who dies on Voyager, with maybe one or two exceptions).
Can't argue with that part. :-)
Tim Lynch
R. Tang
In article <4qk2jm$d...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,>Spoilers for "Broken Link":
>>>-- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
>>>an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
>>>and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
>>>"I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
Then again, perhaps the reason why he uses the line so often is that he WANTS to
participate in those mating rituals, but feels (wrongly) so poorly equipped to handle them....
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~gwangung/TC.html
"The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
Jamahl Epsicokhan
In your review of "Broken Link" posted on rec.arts.startrek.current, you say:
>
>Garak, surprisingly enough, was a mixed bag. Oh, Andrew
>Robinson was fine -- Garak's insistence to Sisko that "if there's one
>thing Cardassians excel at, it's *conversation*" was a treat, and
>Garak's stated motivations for coming on board seem plausible, even
>if I suspect he really wanted to rig the Defiant all along. However, the
>Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
>as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
>been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
>Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf; it bugged me
>because Worf was apparently dumb enough to deliberately leave his
>backup behind, *and* Garak didn't manage to scrape up some kind of
>weapon or at least alarm system for himself; and it bugged me
>symbolically. I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
>"message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
>better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
>(Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
>Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
>physical prowess.) Between that and Kira, I was left feeling a little
>lackluster about characterization this time around.
I think you may be reading into this scene a little too much. I really don't
think the message you inferred about "Worf being a better regular character
than Garak" is the point of this exchange at all. Let's face it: Garak *had* to
be caught one way or another for the plot to work (obviously, he can't be
permitted to destroy the Founders), and adding hints of security alarms or
otherwise would just complicate the subplot beyond its necessity. I also
disagree with your opinion that Garak should've "wiped the floor" with Worf.
One of the biggest undercurrents, I think, about the scene in "The Die is Cast"
where Garak tortures Odo for information about the Founders, is that Garak is
*no longer* fit for the Obsidian Order. Despite his attempts to return to
Obsidian methods, he could not, in good conscience, torture Odo for the
information Tain wanted. He caved in to his emotions and guilt, when it's
obvious he used to take great "enthusiasm" in "extracting information." If
Garak, after years out of the Obsidian loop, would've beaten Worf in a physical
fight, I would've been complaining the opposite of what you mentioned.
If we should be worried that Worf eclipsed regular characters on the show this
season, I'd argue that it's Kira. Kira's personality was substantially toned
down this season (much more than I would've liked), and I think Worf is one of
the reasons. I think Kira is being slighted in strong leadership roles in favor
of Worf. In many cases involving the Defiant, she even *takes orders from him*,
or, at least that's the way it seems in some episodes ("Starship Down,"
"Paradise Lost"). Other than these examples, I think Worf's addition to the
cast has been done smoothly and nicely, and mostly not at the expense of other
characters.
And I can't agree with you on the Garak/Worf scene here.
--Jamahl Epsicokhan
Christopher B. Stone
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>If we had a lot of prominent Klingon characters *other* than Gowron,
>I'd be far less irked -- but there really is no one else representing
>the Empire at this point.
Aren't you forgetting the House of Duras? They're still around,
remember. In "Sword of Kahless," we see that Toral is almost old enough
to lead the House.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Martin Luther King
Timothy W. Lynch
epsi...@uiuc.edu (Jamahl Epsicokhan) writes:
Spoilers for "Broken Link":
[Worf/Garak]
> >I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
> >"message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
> >better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
> >(Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
> >Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
> >physical prowess.) Between that and Kira, I was left feeling a little
> >lackluster about characterization this time around.
>
> I think you may be reading into this scene a little too much.
It's entirely possible; I've done it before. I did say "almost".
> I really don't
> think the message you inferred about "Worf being a better regular character
> than Garak" is the point of this exchange at all.
I think it's an interpretation some fans could draw. (Remember, I
teach middle school; I hear these sorts of arguments.) I would agree
entirely that it's not the *main* point, but I have a small worm of
doubt about whether it's not a hopeful bit of subtext.
> Let's face it: Garak *had* to
> be caught one way or another for the plot to work (obviously, he can't be
> permitted to destroy the Founders), and adding hints of security alarms or
> otherwise would just complicate the subplot beyond its necessity.
So instead, Garak's turned into a fool? No. In that case, wipe the
subplot. I do not subscribe to the "make the characters morons to
make the plot work" theory; never have, never will. Perhaps Garak
was rightfully at a disadvantage during the physical battle -- that's
a very debatable point, certainly. However, Garak should be able to
*out-think* Worf any day of the week, based on years of evidence, and
I'm not planning to subscribe to any interpretation to the contrary.
That leaves "he wanted to be caught", and I can't quite buy into that
either.
> I also disagree with your opinion that Garak should've "wiped the
> floor" with Worf. One of the biggest undercurrents, I think, about
> the scene in "The Die is Cast" where Garak tortures Odo for
> information about the Founders, is that Garak is *no longer* fit for
> the Obsidian Order. Despite his attempts to return to Obsidian
> methods, he could not, in good conscience, torture Odo for the
> information Tain wanted. He caved in to his emotions and guilt, when
> it's obvious he used to take great "enthusiasm" in "extracting
> information."
What does any of this have to do with being unwilling to kill Worf in
a good cause? He doesn't know Worf, he doesn't particularly *like*
Worf, and he was about to do it *anyway*.
If you mean that he's rusty, well, okay ... but even a rusty member of
the OO is pretty damned good compared to most people this side of the
Tal Shiar -- and yes, I'd certainly include Worf in that category.
> If we should be worried that Worf eclipsed regular characters on the
> show this season, I'd argue that it's Kira.
I can agree with that to an extent, but the reason Garak is at issue
is that he is *not* a regular character -- and from all accounts, he
would have been had Paramount not blown a lot of money signing on
Michael Dorn.
> And I can't agree with you on the Garak/Worf scene here.
Them's what makes horse races.
Tim Lynch
Lasher
>
> That leaves a lot of little details that didn't come off so well, though,
> and perhaps it's those details which are leaving me feeling so mixed.
> after "Body Parts" that Kira's pregnancy might have a negative impact
> on the character; while I'm not prepared yet to say that that's
> unequivocally the case, "Broken Link" did nothing to ease those
> concerns. This Kira was mostly a laughingstock; the scene involving
> her the most covered everyone making side bets on how many
> helped Odo to the Defiant was well done, but the rest of Kira's scenes
> tended to put her in scenes where we were meant to chuckle at her. I
> don't like that; it weakens the character, and reminds me too much of
> the second season of "Lois & Clark", where Lois was often put into
> scenes that seemed designed to humiliate her. (I don't know if the
> third season was the same way, because the second was enough to
> make us stop watching.) If this is what we have to look forward to as
> a result of this storyline, then I'd just as soon opt out.
This is something I wouldn't necessarily blame on Kira's
pregnancy. Actually, I think the pregnancy storyline is exasperbating a
trend with Kira that started early this season. The writers have been
gradually watering down her character--in fact, I think I've seen her in
that Guenivere costume more often than I've seen her in command. The
independent Kira of only a year ago never would have moved in with the
O'Briens without so much as an "I'll think about it." The Kira of a
year ago never would have shared a laugh with Dukat in "Indiscresions".
I have no problems with Kira loosening up, but it gone way too far over
way too short a period of time.
As far as the pregnancy storyline itself, I applaud the writers
for writing Nana's pregancy into the show. But judging from what's
happened so far, I'm having a *very* hard time seeing them play this one
out without looking like a soap opera, or a sitcom.
> Garak, surprisingly enough, was a mixed bag. Oh, Andrew
> Robinson was fine -- Garak's insistence to Sisko that "if there's one
> thing Cardassians excel at, it's *conversation*" was a treat, and
> Garak's stated motivations for coming on board seem plausible, even
> if I suspect he really wanted to rig the Defiant all along. However, the
> Worf/Garak confrontation bugged me -- a lot. It bugged me because
> as sharp a member of the Obsidian Order as Garak shouldn't have
> been that sloppy; it bugged me because as sharp a member of the
> Order as Garak should have wiped the floor with Worf; it bugged me
> because Worf was apparently dumb enough to deliberately leave his
> backup behind, *and* Garak didn't manage to scrape up some kind of
> weapon or at least alarm system for himself; and it bugged me
> symbolically. I was almost left with the feeling that the scene was a
> "message" of sorts, saying "see, having Worf as a regular character is
> better than Garak" -- and that's not a message I agree with at all.
> (Nor, if such a message was intended, was a scene with Worf beating
> Garak up going to be a way to get it across. Garak's appeal isn't his
> physical prowess.) Between that and Kira, I was left feeling a little
> lackluster about characterization this time around.
You have a point about Garak's sloppiness, but I'm willing to
chalk it up to the fact that he got scared $#!+less by the female
changeling's "DEAD, DEAD, DEAD" speech. However, I'll have to disagree
with you on him being able to beat up Worf. Garak has always been a
character who uses cunning (or admittedly a phaser) as his weapon of
choice. Besides, after all those years of Worf being overcome by the
alien of the week, Ferengi, and yes--even a couple of times by crates in
the cargo bay, it felt good to see Worf actually WIN a fight. Seeing as
how this was the season finale and all, I actually expected Worf to
lose.
I think you're reading too much into the Garak/Worf fight. I
really don't see any need to compare the two. DS9 had made Worf's
character more interesting since he became a regular, and Garak would
probably suffer if he were required to show up week after week. Plus,
they are two totally different types of people.
>
> -- Garak's note to the security guards about "accessorizing" their
> uniforms. Priceless.
That didn't hold a candle to Garak's exchange with Sisko, or
especially his discussion of late Romulan politicians with Odo. Those
pretty much stole the show for me!
> -- the Founders' spokesbeing putting Garak in his place in about thirty
> seconds when he asks about survivors. "They're dead. *You're*
> dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they
> attacked us. I believe that answers your question." That line, more
> than almost anything I've seen in two years, really got across the
> implacability of the Founders effectively.
Salmone did an outstanding job this time around. She managed to
be menacing, and understated at the same time--very difficult to carry
off. You notice she seems to be just a little bit nastier every time we
see her?
> That brings up the two climactic moments in the fifth act: Odo's
> punishment, and Odo's exposure of Gowron. This wasn't entirely
> positive, but it was mostly good. Odo's punishment, in general, came
> off quite well -- it's a logical punishment, it makes Odo even more of
> an outcast than he was (geez, who *isn't* an outcast from his/her
> people these days on DS9?), it's a major impact (or at least, it had
> better be), and it takes the character new places. Odo's
> acknowledgment that he was permanently severed from his people in
> the same moment that he finally came to understand them was
> particularly poignant. About the only difficulty I have with it is that in
> having an omnipotent, mysterious race make someone human as a
> punishment, I was reminded of TNG's "Deja Q" in more ways than I
> can count (particularly when Odo felt hungry). That's not necessarily
> a problem, but for a groundbreaking moment it shouldn't feel
> shopworn.
As I expect this condition to last for at least the first ten
episodes of next season, I think a lot more can be explored here than in
a 45 minute TNG episode, not to mention that Odo is nothing like Q.
Odo's going to have to shave, comb his hair and go to the bathroom
now--that alone should be worth a B story! :)
>
> Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
> been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
> some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
> questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
> deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
> *necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
> once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
> differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
> about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe. Used
I won't have a problem with it just as long as:
1) Gowron was replaced *after* the events in "Way of the Warrior" (if
he were a changeling *then*, he wouldn't have backed down from a
full-scale war)
2) Once all is revealed, not everything goes back to normal. I would
be very disappointed if Gowron let the Cardassians have their captured
colonies back, even if he were a Founder from the very beginning.
>
> -- The pair of scenes with Aroya also left me a little cold. They made
> an interesting pair of bookends to highlight Odo's humanity, I agree,
> and that's obviously why they were there; but Odo's had so many
> "I'm not interested in your mating rituals" scenes that it felt dull.
I agree with you--it *was* dull. Had they waited to introduce
Aroya until after Odo had been human for awhile, then it would have had
a more interesting spin to it.
Well season five should be interesting, no matter what happens.
--
Lasher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
/===================================================================\
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources"
---Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
\ ==================================================================/
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< las...@maui.netwave.net
Dennis F. Hefferman
|me...@hpindft.cup.hp.com (David Mears) writes:
|>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
|>> Spoilers for "Broken Link":
|
|because *he knows Garak*. Are you in turn suggesting that Worf ought
|to be able to easily counter the strategies of a trained Obsidian
|Order agent without breaking a sweat?
Yes, because Worf is a trained operative in his own right and one who
lives for his job. James Bond notwithstanding, assassins are probably not
going to be able to stand up to front-line fighters in hand-to-hand combat.
They're trained for subtlety, not kneecapping. Nor is it likely that Garak can
foil all the security devices on a beyond-state-of-the-art starship he's never
had access to before, without even the resources of his agency to brief him on
the technical details.
If Garak is so frigging good, how come he got exiled to a Bajoran space
station? It's been shown several times that he lets his emotions get in the
way of his work (the wretched Casablanca episode, "The Die is Cast", "Our Man
Bashir"), and everyone on the show has had his number from Day One, toying with
Bashir notwithstanding. He has definitely not been shown to be some kind of
Ubercardassian.
I was amazed that he did as well as he did in the fight with Worf,
given the size and mass deficit and Worf's strict regimen of combat practice.
I chalked it up to the usual bad portrayal of his fighting skills.
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: Macavity heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"I guess my work around here has all been done."
-- The Devil, in "The Garden of Allah", Don Henley
Timothy W. Lynch
"Broken Link" spoilers:
In response to my Kira-as-laughingstock complaints:
> This is something I wouldn't necessarily blame on Kira's
>pregnancy. Actually, I think the pregnancy storyline is exasperbating a
>trend with Kira that started early this season. The writers have been
>gradually watering down her character--in fact, I think I've seen her in
>that Guenivere costume more often than I've seen her in command. The
>independent Kira of only a year ago never would have moved in with the
>O'Briens without so much as an "I'll think about it." The Kira of a
>year ago never would have shared a laugh with Dukat in "Indiscresions".
> I have no problems with Kira loosening up, but it gone way too far over
>way too short a period of time.
I think I can agree with that; in fact, I was thinking of putting
something similar to that into my season-4 review anyway. Thanks for
bringing it up. Suffice it to say that the pregnancy storyline isn't
helping.
>> -- the Founders' spokesbeing putting Garak in his place in about thirty
>> seconds when he asks about survivors. "They're dead. *You're*
>> dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they
>> attacked us. I believe that answers your question." That line, more
>> than almost anything I've seen in two years, really got across the
>> implacability of the Founders effectively.
> Salmone did an outstanding job this time around. She managed to
>be menacing, and understated at the same time--very difficult to carry
>off. You notice she seems to be just a little bit nastier every time we
>see her?
More or less .. and quite effectively. As a nitpick, though, the
actress's name is Salome; your spelling might be described as a bit
fishy. :-)
>> Gowron is another matter. On one level, it certainly works; there's
>> been speculation about Gowron being a Founder all year, it makes
>> some of his behavior understandable, and it leads to very interesting
>> questions about just how *long* he's been a Founder. However,
>> deep down ... I don't like it. I don't like it because it's not
>> *necessary* to make the Alpha Quadrant situation understandable;
>> once again, instead of a major change coming about because of
>> differing mindsets, this major change (the Fed/Klin conflict) came
>> about because of a mysterious, implacable, all-powerful foe. Used
> I won't have a problem with it just as long as:
> 1) Gowron was replaced *after* the events in "Way of the Warrior" (if
>he were a changeling *then*, he wouldn't have backed down from a
>full-scale war)
> 2) Once all is revealed, not everything goes back to normal. I would
>be very disappointed if Gowron let the Cardassians have their captured
>colonies back, even if he were a Founder from the very beginning.
If those two conditions are met, I'll be a lot happier; I'm still not
sure exactly how I'll feel, but (2) in particular is necessary not to
make me think this was a major blunder.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <4qkmot$l...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>If we had a lot of prominent Klingon characters *other* than Gowron,
>>I'd be far less irked -- but there really is no one else representing
>>the Empire at this point.
>Aren't you forgetting the House of Duras?
They're not representing the Empire. If I count them, I might as well
count Kahless and Kor as well; Kahless is certainly a lot closer. But
how prominent have *any* of them been in the last couple of years?
Tim Lynch
Omar Latiri
: me...@hpindft.cup.hp.com (David Mears) writes:
: >Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
: >> Spoilers for "Broken Link":
[much snipped]
: best security officers can stretch themselves too thin -- and quite
: frankly, based on evidence I've seen, Worf is *not* the best security
: officer around.
That's true, but he's up there. (Don't remind me about his
aim in "Rascals." He sharpened up in "A Fistful of Datas.")
: Now, if this were Odo acting as security officer, I'd be a lot more
: inclined to buy it -- both because Odo seems to do a better job and
: because *he knows Garak*. Are you in turn suggesting that Worf ought
: to be able to easily counter the strategies of a trained Obsidian
: Order agent without breaking a sweat?
I don't believe we've ever been told that OO Agents have superior
combat skills. Remember that Garak preferred phasers rather than hand-to-
hand combat in "The Way of the Warrior" -- he considered it more "civilized."
--
****************************************************************************
* In many people's attempts to be different, they wind up doing the exact *
* same thing as everyone else... *
* "There are no *
* atheists in the "De gustibus non est Omar Latiri *
* foxholes." disputandum." o41...@acs.bu.edu *
* -- William Thomas Cummings "Peace be with you." *
* *
*For the Latin-impaired, the above means "There's no accounting for taste."*
****************************************************************************
Dennis F. Hefferman
In <4r4ig8$c...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
|>: >> Spoilers for "Broken Link":
|
|Would people *please* stop reading "strategies" as "hand-to-hand
|combat ability"?
"Break into the weapons control computer and set off the Fourth of
July" doesn't seem like a strategy worthy of Sun Tzu. Garak once again let his
emotions cloud his judgement.
Timothy W. Lynch
>: >> Spoilers for "Broken Link":
>: Now, if this were Odo acting as security officer, I'd be a lot more
>: inclined to buy it -- both because Odo seems to do a better job and
>: because *he knows Garak*. Are you in turn suggesting that Worf ought
>: to be able to easily counter the strategies of a trained Obsidian
>: Order agent without breaking a sweat?
> I don't believe we've ever been told that OO Agents have superior
>combat skills.
Would people *please* stop reading "strategies" as "hand-to-hand
combat ability"?
'nuff said.
Tim Lynch
The Spamster
In article <4qsdt7$l...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, Timothy W. Lynch says...
>
>me...@hpindft.cup.hp.com (David Mears) writes:
>>> make the plot work" theory; never have, never will. Perhaps Garak
>>> was rightfully at a disadvantage during the physical battle -- that's
>>> a very debatable point, certainly. However, Garak should be able to
>>> *out-think* Worf any day of the week, based on years of evidence, and
>>> I'm not planning to subscribe to any interpretation to the contrary.
>
>>the Defiant, much less coming with them on the trip. Is it too much of
>>a stretch to believe Worf instituted all sorts of devices and methods to
>>keep track of Garak? Are you suggesting Garak should have been able to
>>evade everything Worf might have been doing to watch Garak and make sure
>>he didn't (try to) get into trouble?
>
>Given that Worf also had to worry about Jem'Hadar, the Founder leader,
>and a possible attempt to rescue Odo? Damn right I am. :-) Even the
>best security officers can stretch themselves too thin -- and quite
>frankly, based on evidence I've seen, Worf is *not* the best security
>officer around.
>
>inclined to buy it -- both because Odo seems to do a better job and
>because *he knows Garak*. Are you in turn suggesting that Worf ought
>to be able to easily counter the strategies of a trained Obsidian
>Order agent without breaking a sweat?
>
>
I would like to add that Garek has been out the the Obsidian
Order for at least five years. Is it to hard to believe that he could be
out of shape. Also considering that Worf is a trained Klingon warrior in his
prime, I think that Garek put up a pretty good fight for himself.
Another thing to remember is that we don't know how old Garek is or
if Cardassians age as well as humans in the 24th century.
-The Spamster
--
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard "The Drumhead"
cb75...@sable.adelphi.edu
In article <4r3k5f$3...@news.bu.edu>, o41...@bu.edu (Omar Latiri) writes:
>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
>: >Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>: >> Spoilers for "Broken Link":
>
>
>
>: best security officers can stretch themselves too thin -- and quite
>: frankly, based on evidence I've seen, Worf is *not* the best security
>: officer around.
>
>aim in "Rascals." He sharpened up in "A Fistful of Datas.")
>
>: inclined to buy it -- both because Odo seems to do a better job and
>: because *he knows Garak*. Are you in turn suggesting that Worf ought
>: to be able to easily counter the strategies of a trained Obsidian
>: Order agent without breaking a sweat?
>
>hand combat in "The Way of the Warrior" -- he considered it more "civilized."
>
>--
>
>****************************************************************************
>* In many people's attempts to be different, they wind up doing the exact *
>* same thing as everyone else... *
>* "There are no *
>* atheists in the "De gustibus non est Omar Latiri *
>* foxholes." disputandum." o41...@acs.bu.edu *
>* -- William Thomas Cummings "Peace be with you." *
>* *
>*For the Latin-impaired, the above means "There's no accounting for taste."*
>****************************************************************************
All that good human living, no doubt.