Genetic Engineering?
Charley Earp
small-bodied humans?
Thomas
Charley Earp wrote:
> Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
> small-bodied humans?
In Zero-Gee? Sure. On Earth? Cyborgs are the way to go. While I
suppose you could genetically engineer a flying sapient tool-user it
would not look even remotely humanoid. The limitations of biological
systems would force you to let function determine form. But you can
teoretically graft a pair of robotic wings onto a human frame and get it
to work if you really want to. If your technology is good enough the
wings would just feel like another pair of (very strong) limbs. But you
might have to get the initial implants at infacy in order to develop
proper
motor control over them.
Nancy Lebovitz
Thomas <c96...@student.dtu.dk> wrote:
>
>
>Charley Earp wrote:
>
>> Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
>> small-bodied humans?
>
>In Zero-Gee? Sure. On Earth? Cyborgs are the way to go. While I
>suppose you could genetically engineer a flying sapient tool-user it
>would not look even remotely humanoid. The limitations of biological
I'm not sure about that--the smallest adults mentioned in Re/Search's
_Freaks_ were, iirc, 25 lbs, 24" tall. This might be at the upper limit
of size where it's be possible to add wings and the ability to
fly.
>systems would force you to let function determine form. But you can
>teoretically graft a pair of robotic wings onto a human frame and get it
>
>to work if you really want to. If your technology is good enough the
>wings would just feel like another pair of (very strong) limbs. But you
>might have to get the initial implants at infacy in order to develop
>proper
>motor control over them.
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com
Calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Peter Knutsen
Charley Earp wrote:
>
> Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
> small-bodied humans?
Of course. Maybe not a lot of folks, but...
--
Peter Knutsen
Jorj Strumolo
NL> the smallest adults mentioned in Re/Search's _Freaks_ were,
> iirc, 25 lbs, 24" tall. This might be at the upper limit of
> size where it's be possible to add wings and the ability to fly.
It'd be close. A quick net search says the largest flying bird
is the California condor at 22 pounds. Working that close to
the limits with an initial form so unlike a bird and already
heavier even before you add wings is not going to be easy. I
think you'd have to cheat, and have mech-assisted flight like
the Sparrowhawk-descended animal-vehicles in Easton's Organic
Future books. Probably easier to Uplift a bird without losing
the existing flight ability.
James A & Tarren Y Renn
You could go larger if they were on a terraformed Mars or within a Lunar
dome. On the Moon they could almost be normal human sized.
James
--
James A. & Tarren Y. Renn (t...@mediaone.net)
Please specify to whom mail is directed, thank you.
Nancy Lebovitz
good manipulative ability, I think you're right.
If your goal is to use retro-bio-engineering to enable yourself
to fly under your own power, then you'd probably want to keep
the human form.
If you're living in a time when the ethical restrictions on
bio-engineering are lax and you want flying humanoids for
commercial entertainment or for swank, then you'd probably
compromise on brain size/intelligence.
Del Cotter
Jorj Strumolo <jo...@fastdial.net> wrote:
> na...@unix3.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz)
>
> > the smallest adults mentioned in Re/Search's _Freaks_ were,
> > iirc, 25 lbs, 24" tall. This might be at the upper limit of
> > size where it's be possible to add wings and the ability to fly.
>
> It'd be close. A quick net search says the largest flying bird
> is the California condor at 22 pounds. Working that close to
> the limits with an initial form so unlike a bird and already
> heavier even before you add wings is not going to be easy.
Twenty two pounds is nowhere *near* the limits. We live in the shadow
of the glaciers, and nothing alive and flying since the Ice Ages has yet
re-evolved to anything like the size of the condors of the Miocene.
One day, maybe.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
"Choose the Dark Side... now why would I do a thing like that?"
--Obi-Wan Renton
Danny Sichel
> Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
> small-bodied humans?
Hell, we could genengineer wings onto humans *now*.
Well, for large values of "wings".
Forinst, if we genengineer drosophilia to carry a substantial portion of
Charley proteins, graft their wings onto a patch of Charley's skin, and
pump Charley full of immunosuppressants, does that count?
--
A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.
Corollary:
A man needs a woman like a bicycle needs a fish.
Danny Sichel
>>> Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
>>> small-bodied humans?
>>In Zero-Gee? Sure. On Earth? Cyborgs are the way to go. While I
>>suppose you could genetically engineer a flying sapient tool-user it
>>would not look even remotely humanoid. The limitations of biological
> I'm not sure about that--the smallest adults mentioned in Re/Search's
> _Freaks_ were, iirc, 25 lbs, 24" tall. This might be at the upper limit
> of size where it's be possible to add wings and the ability to fly.
Yeah, but the original question said nothing about flying, only about
having wings.
Jorj Strumolo
DC> Twenty two pounds is nowhere *near* the limits. We live in the shadow
> of the glaciers, and nothing alive and flying since the Ice Ages has yet
> re-evolved to anything like the size of the condors of the Miocene.
I thought of that, but wasn't part of that a greater oxygen
percentage in the atmosphere? (Or was that much further back,
in giant dragonfly days?)
Ken MacLeod
<jo...@fastdial.net> writes
No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
Ted Holden knows all this, and used to talk about it at length over on
talk.origins.
One of the early giants ...
--
Ken MacLeod
Nancy Lebovitz
Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
>GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
>why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
>cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
>can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
>
Del Cotter
Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Jorj Strumolo <jo...@fastdial.net> writes
>
>> > Twenty two pounds is nowhere *near* the limits. We live in the shadow
>> > of the glaciers, and nothing alive and flying since the Ice Ages has yet
>> > re-evolved to anything like the size of the condors of the Miocene.
>>
>> I thought of that, but wasn't part of that a greater oxygen
>> percentage in the atmosphere? (Or was that much further back,
>> in giant dragonfly days?)
No, the oxygen wasn't more plentiful in the Miocene, and it wouldn't
have made any difference if it was: vertebrates aren't short of oxygen,
but of food. The Palaeozoic *did* have more oxygen [1], and that may be
where you heard about it; it may have led to the evolution of large land
invertebrates (which, unlike vertebrates, do run short of oxygen in the
air because of the way they breathe).
>No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
>GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
>why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
>cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
>can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
Hee hee. Were you there when I suggested throwing hamsters out of
aeroplanes?
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
[1] Jeffrey B Graham et al. "Implications of the late Palaeozoic oxygen pulse
for physiology and evolution" Nature _375_ pp. 117-120 (1995)
Conan the Librarian
bunny slippers, I noticed that Ken MacLeod
<k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
>GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
>why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
>cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
>can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
>
>talk.origins.
Is that where James P. Hogan got the stuff for "Cradle of Saturn"?
I read Hogan's "Rockets, Redheads, something" (some non-fiction) and
he seems to be into this stuff all of a sudden. I thought he was a
real engineer.
Or is there something here I'm missing?
--
+------------------------------------------------+
| Conan the Librarian in Louisville, KY, USA |
| 70210dot357@compuserveDOTcom |
| Using FREE AGENT 1.11/32 from FORTE` |
| "I've been doing this since 300 Baud Modems!" |
+------------------------------------------------+
jeff wiel
: Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
: small-bodied humans?
Why stop there? I want anti-gravity and a built in star drive.
jeff wiel
: On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, in rec.arts.sf.written
: Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >Jorj Strumolo <jo...@fastdial.net> writes
: >
: >> > Twenty two pounds is nowhere *near* the limits. We live in the shadow
: >> > of the glaciers, and nothing alive and flying since the Ice Ages has yet
: >> > re-evolved to anything like the size of the condors of the Miocene.
: >>
: >> I thought of that, but wasn't part of that a greater oxygen
: >> percentage in the atmosphere? (Or was that much further back,
: >> in giant dragonfly days?)
: No, the oxygen wasn't more plentiful in the Miocene, and it wouldn't
: have made any difference if it was: vertebrates aren't short of oxygen,
: but of food. The Palaeozoic *did* have more oxygen [1], and that may be
: where you heard about it; it may have led to the evolution of large land
: invertebrates (which, unlike vertebrates, do run short of oxygen in the
: air because of the way they breathe).
: >No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
: >GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
: >why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
: >cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
: >can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
: Hee hee. Were you there when I suggested throwing hamsters out of
: aeroplanes?
It would be a good test of saltation - see if they evolve wings on the way
down.
: --
James Nicoll
Conan the Librarian <70210...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:15:30 +0100, while lolling about in my fuzzy
>bunny slippers, I noticed that Ken MacLeod
><k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
>>why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
>>cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
>>can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
>>
>>talk.origins.
>
>Is that where James P. Hogan got the stuff for "Cradle of Saturn"?
>I read Hogan's "Rockets, Redheads, something" (some non-fiction) and
>he seems to be into this stuff all of a sudden. I thought he was a
>real engineer.
Hogan's using the same sources as Holdan: Velikovsky and
sources inspired/derivative of him like Ginenthal.
>Or is there something here I'm missing?
Yes, engineering training provides no protection from
nutty ideas. Judging by the overlap of the set of frothing
creationists and other nutbars and engineers, it may well make
them more prone to falling prey to zany ideas.
Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
age for the Brain Eater to get him.
James Nicoll
--
"You know, it's getting more and more like _Blade Runner_ down
here."
A customer commenting on downtown Kitchener
Ken MacLeod
<na...@unix3.netaxs.com> writes
>In article <WR9p7WAy...@libertaria.demon.co.uk>,
>Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
>>GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then. That's
>>why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
>>cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
>>can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
>>
If they are, it's FURTHER evidence against Chuck Darwin and his
braindead followers, because transparency could NEVER evolve by blind
CHANCE any more than the eye could.
Speaking of which, their retinae would have to be visible. If
transparent flying feral chickens were really there, we'd see strange
spots and dots whenever we looked at the sky. Wait a minute, we do.
What more proof do you need?
--
Ken MacLeod
Niall McAuley
> No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
> GRAVITY was less, and anyway, physics was different back then.
I particularly liked the way Earth orbited Saturn with
its North pole pointing at Saturn throughout each orbit.
--
Niall [real address ends in se, not es]
Nancy Lebovitz
Ken MacLeod <k...@libertaria.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <7qjc0q$l...@netaxs.com>, Nancy Lebovitz
><na...@unix3.netaxs.com> writes
>>In article <WR9p7WAy...@libertaria.demon.co.uk>,
>>>
>>>No, it's because Earth was orbiting Saturn, so the FELT EFFECT OF
>>>why vultures don't re-evolve to the size of Miocence condors, and why
>>>cows aren't as big as brontosaurus. And anyway, Darwinian evolution
>>>can't be right because the skies aren't dark with flying feral chickens.
>>>
>>The flying feral chickens are up there, but they're TRANSPARENT!!!
>
>If they are, it's FURTHER evidence against Chuck Darwin and his
>braindead followers, because transparency could NEVER evolve by blind
>CHANCE any more than the eye could.
>
>Speaking of which, their retinae would have to be visible. If
>transparent flying feral chickens were really there, we'd see strange
>spots and dots whenever we looked at the sky. Wait a minute, we do.
>
>What more proof do you need?
>
by Ken McLeod and not some ALIEN.
William Clifford
wrote:
[el snipos]
> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
Have any SF stories been written about the Brain Eater? Seems like it
would be perfect material for a Lovecraftian detective story about SF
writers who have been victims of Brain Eaters from beyond Time. It
would hurt a lot of living people's feelings though. Perhaps if we
just changed the names...
-William Clifford
James Nicoll
Come to think of it, who's to say it only hits SF authors?
I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
I suppose one symptom might be someone who in the 1970s
wore trousers so tight they impeded sperm formation complaining
about how silly baggy trousers are or who bought ABBA records
bitching about Hanson music.
It isn't inevitable but it seems to me to be the opposite
of mid-life crisis: having discovered that even when you buy the
sports car and get the trophy wife [Do women buy themselves trophy
husbands?] that bald spot is still there, you can't regain the
fitness you had 20 years ago [or imagine you had 20 years ago]
and the tax people still want their share of your dough, you
decide that if you can't go back in time, you can at least try to
freeze things the way they should be, the way they were when you
were 25. 'Try' in this case meaning bitch and whine. Preservation
through embitterment, a little like salting meat.
James Nicoll
Brenda
James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <37cfb55a...@news.ionline.com>,
> William Clifford <wo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 2 Sep 1999 04:19:56 GMT, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
> >wrote:
> >[el snipos]
> >
> >> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
> >>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
> >
> >Have any SF stories been written about the Brain Eater? Seems like it
> >would be perfect material for a Lovecraftian detective story about SF
> >writers who have been victims of Brain Eaters from beyond Time. It
> >would hurt a lot of living people's feelings though. Perhaps if we
> >just changed the names...
>
> Come to think of it, who's to say it only hits SF authors?
> I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
> Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
>
Only -male- SF authors.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of HOW LIKE A GOD, from Tor Books
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> >On 2 Sep 1999 04:19:56 GMT, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
>> >wrote:
>> >[el snipos]
>> >
>> >> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>> >>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
>> >
>> Come to think of it, who's to say it only hits SF authors?
>> I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
>> Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
>
>Only -male- SF authors.
You wish. Do I really need to name names?
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 7/24/99
James Nicoll
>> William Clifford <wo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On 2 Sep 1999 04:19:56 GMT, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
>> >wrote:
>> >[el snipos]
>> >
>> >> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>> >>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
>> >
>> >would be perfect material for a Lovecraftian detective story about SF
>> >writers who have been victims of Brain Eaters from beyond Time. It
>> >would hurt a lot of living people's feelings though. Perhaps if we
>> >just changed the names...
>>
>> I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
>> Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
>>
>
>Only -male- SF authors.
>
reading but it could well be that the Brain Eater gets women
but the symptoms are less well documented. One wonders about
Le Guin's Syndrome, for example.
I have a friend who goes on and on about the decline
in MZB's work which he claims is the result of listening to
adoring fans for too long. I haven't gotten around to reading
MZB yet so can't judge.
Niall McAuley
ObSF: _The Silkie_, A.E. Van Vogt. Gills and flippers, too.
Brenda
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:17:41 -0400, Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> >> >On 2 Sep 1999 04:19:56 GMT, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
> >> >wrote:
> >> >[el snipos]
> >> >
> >> >> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
> >> >>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
> >> >
> >> Come to think of it, who's to say it only hits SF authors?
> >> I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
> >> Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
> >
> >Only -male- SF authors.
>
> You wish. Do I really need to name names?
>
> --
Argh, I forgot about her. Oogh.
William Clifford
wrote:
>In article <37cfb55a...@news.ionline.com>,
>William Clifford <wo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 2 Sep 1999 04:19:56 GMT, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
>>wrote:
>>[el snipos]
>>
>>> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>>>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
>>
>>would be perfect material for a Lovecraftian detective story about SF
>>writers who have been victims of Brain Eaters from beyond Time. It
>>would hurt a lot of living people's feelings though. Perhaps if we
>>just changed the names...
>
>I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
>Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
>
>wore trousers so tight they impeded sperm formation complaining
>about how silly baggy trousers are or who bought ABBA records
>bitching about Hanson music.
>
> It isn't inevitable but it seems to me to be the opposite
>of mid-life crisis: having discovered that even when you buy the
>sports car and get the trophy wife [Do women buy themselves trophy
>husbands?] that bald spot is still there, you can't regain the
>fitness you had 20 years ago [or imagine you had 20 years ago]
>and the tax people still want their share of your dough, you
>decide that if you can't go back in time, you can at least try to
>freeze things the way they should be, the way they were when you
>were 25. 'Try' in this case meaning bitch and whine. Preservation
>through embitterment, a little like salting meat.
And this makes me wonder if the Brain Eater doesn't just devour the
brains of a lot of fans making them incabable of recognizing real
growth and maturity in a writer. They insist that the earlier works
are better and that the author suffers from age because the Brain
Eater devoured their own maturity and growth. Determining the
difference between Brain Eaten Fandom and Brain Eaten Authordom should
be the next great task of literary criticism. Except that we'd have to
rely on Brain Eaten Critics. This leads to a Tarantino-style three way
standoff of blame. No matter how you cut it, the Devil always wins.
-William Clifford
Joseph Hertzlinger
>And this makes me wonder if the Brain Eater doesn't just devour the
>brains of a lot of fans making them incabable of recognizing real
>growth and maturity in a writer. They insist that the earlier works
>are better and that the author suffers from age because the Brain
>Eater devoured their own maturity and growth. Determining the
>difference between Brain Eaten Fandom and Brain Eaten Authordom should
>be the next great task of literary criticism. Except that we'd have to
>rely on Brain Eaten Critics. This leads to a Tarantino-style three way
>standoff of blame. No matter how you cut it, the Devil always wins.
The good news is that scientists have recently found a method of
keeping the Brain Eater away from mice. This could be applied to
humans.
.... unless Brain Eater got those scientists.
William Clifford
Hertzlinger) wrote:
Yeah, the mice learn faster now... it's later after all the
associative paths are hardened in place that I'm curious about. We'll
see how fast those mice learn then.
-William Clifford
Christopher Jorgensen
In article <37CFCC8F...@erols.com>, Brenda wrote:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>Brenda wrote:
>>>James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>(James Nicoll) wrote:
>> >> >[el snipos]
>> >> >
>> >> >> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>> >> >>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
>> >> >
>> >> Come to think of it, who's to say it only hits SF authors?
>> >> I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
>> >> Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
>> >
>> >Only -male- SF authors.
>>
>> You wish. Do I really need to name names?
>
>Argh, I forgot about her. Oogh.
Her is? Her are? Nope, that word isn't both singular and plural.
I could name a dozen women that the Brain Eater has munched,
but then I'd have to start up the rasfw is meaner thread again,
this time as a hypocrite.
I hate to say this, but I am a fan of a select few authors that
have somehow managed to die before the Brain Eater got 'em,
and I am grateful that they died. There's this little nagging
feeling at the back of my mind that wonders if they'd lived if
somehow they'd have managed to escape said Eater of Brains.
"Think of all the wonderous books you're missing!" it screams
at me, but then I imagine myself in that mythical library that
contains not only all that was ever written, but those works
that would have been had the writer lived, and as I walk the
isles I can't bring myself to even touch a book for fear of
being right.
christopher.....
--
If there's more to say, it will keep;
Now I'll return to your side and settle deep
And we'll drift, and we'll drift off to sleep
SKZB -A Rose for Iconoclastes-
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>In article <37CFCC8F...@erols.com>, Brenda wrote:
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>>Brenda wrote:
>>>>James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>(James Nicoll) wrote:
>>> >> >[el snipos]
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>>> >> >>age for the Brain Eater to get him.
>>> >> >
>>> >> Come to think of it, who's to say it only hits SF authors?
>>> >> I -notice- it in SF authors because I read a lot of SF but the
>>> >> Brain Eater could be out there waiting for all of us.
>>> >
>>> >Only -male- SF authors.
>>>
>>> You wish. Do I really need to name names?
>>
>>Argh, I forgot about her. Oogh.
>
>Her is? Her are? Nope, that word isn't both singular and plural.
>I could name a dozen women that the Brain Eater has munched,
>but then I'd have to start up the rasfw is meaner thread again,
>this time as a hypocrite.
A dozen? I only had two good examples in mind -- which is still
plural, not Brenda's singular, of course.
Kristopher/EOS
>
> Except that we'd have to rely on Brain Eaten Critics.
Isn't this redundant?
Kristopher/EOS
Danny Sichel
>> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
>> age for the Brain Eater to get him.
> Have any SF stories been written about the Brain Eater? Seems like it
> would be perfect material for a Lovecraftian detective story about SF
> writers who have been victims of Brain Eaters from beyond Time. It
> would hurt a lot of living people's feelings though. Perhaps if we
> just changed the names...
Mm?
Is this a reference to something in particular, or is it just an
allusion to authors whose skills lessen with time?
James Nicoll
Christopher Jorgensen <lynn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I hate to say this, but I am a fan of a select few authors that
>have somehow managed to die before the Brain Eater got 'em,
>and I am grateful that they died. There's this little nagging
>feeling at the back of my mind that wonders if they'd lived if
>somehow they'd have managed to escape said Eater of Brains.
>"Think of all the wonderous books you're missing!" it screams
>at me, but then I imagine myself in that mythical library that
>contains not only all that was ever written, but those works
>that would have been had the writer lived, and as I walk the
>isles I can't bring myself to even touch a book for fear of
>being right.
I think Asimov called authors like that supernovas:
amazing careers cut short: Weinbaum was who he was talking
about but I wonder what Kornbluth, for example, would have
done if he hadn't died.
I was just noticing an author I like [McKenna] had
an amazingly brief career before he died.
Christopher Jorgensen
In article <3JvQN2tFmfbeHx...@4ax.com>, Lawrence wrote:
[big snip]
>>Her is? Her are? Nope, that word isn't both singular and plural.
>>I could name a dozen women that the Brain Eater has munched,
>>but then I'd have to start up the rasfw is meaner thread again,
>>this time as a hypocrite.
>
>A dozen? I only had two good examples in mind -- which is still
>plural, not Brenda's singular, of course.
Well, to give a non-sf example, we are talking about whatever
got to Anne Rice, correct? I can think of three SF women who've
been munched off the top of my head, give me access to my library
and I'm sure I can come up wuth another three at least. Maybe I'm
a little too high, but give it another 30 years. I think the Brain
Eater is an Equal Opportunity muncher, and as more women get
into the writing of SF.....
christopher....
William Clifford
<eosl...@net-link.net> wrote:
>William Clifford wrote:
>>
>> Except that we'd have to rely on Brain Eaten Critics.
>
>Isn't this redundant?
Is that a criticism?
-William Clifford
Kristopher/EOS
It's an observation.
Kristopher/EOS
Nancy Lebovitz
Christopher Jorgensen <lynn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>In article <3JvQN2tFmfbeHx...@4ax.com>, Lawrence wrote:
>
>[big snip]
>
>>>Her is? Her are? Nope, that word isn't both singular and plural.
>>>I could name a dozen women that the Brain Eater has munched,
>>>but then I'd have to start up the rasfw is meaner thread again,
>>>this time as a hypocrite.
>>
>>A dozen? I only had two good examples in mind -- which is still
>>plural, not Brenda's singular, of course.
>
>Well, to give a non-sf example, we are talking about whatever
>got to Anne Rice, correct? I can think of three SF women who've
I think I know what you meant, but is there any way of logically
claiming that Rice isn't writing fantasy?
>been munched off the top of my head, give me access to my library
>and I'm sure I can come up wuth another three at least. Maybe I'm
>a little too high, but give it another 30 years. I think the Brain
>Eater is an Equal Opportunity muncher, and as more women get
>into the writing of SF.....
>
Nancy Lebovitz
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>
> Well, I like to think there's no sex-related bias to my
>reading but it could well be that the Brain Eater gets women
>but the symptoms are less well documented. One wonders about
>Le Guin's Syndrome, for example.
Note that the Brain Eater regurgitates some neurons now and then.
Some of Heinlein's and LeGuin's decent work (though not their
best) has been written after their worst.
>
> I have a friend who goes on and on about the decline
>in MZB's work which he claims is the result of listening to
>adoring fans for too long. I haven't gotten around to reading
Could be, but MZB isn't physically healthy, either.
>MZB yet so can't judge.
>
James Nicoll
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote:
>In article <7qngeo$9i9$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
>James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>>
>> Well, I like to think there's no sex-related bias to my
>>reading but it could well be that the Brain Eater gets women
>>but the symptoms are less well documented. One wonders about
>>Le Guin's Syndrome, for example.
>
>Note that the Brain Eater regurgitates some neurons now and then.
>Some of Heinlein's and LeGuin's decent work (though not their
>best) has been written after their worst.
>>
>> I have a friend who goes on and on about the decline
>>in MZB's work which he claims is the result of listening to
>>adoring fans for too long. I haven't gotten around to reading
>Could be, but MZB isn't physically healthy, either.
I moved the last line of my post up above your line [Just
so nobody thinks I am trying to 'win' an argument by modifying my
own text without notice, I think it reads better this way].
Are MZB's alleged problems with writing closely correlated
to her illness?
Laumer is an example of a writer being betrayed by his own
body: I am told that a knowledgable person can tell the point in
_The Ultimax Man_ where Laumer had his stroke and that the deficiencies
in his writing can be used diagnostically. That's interesting and
horrible at the same time.
Hmmm. Peake might also be an example, come to think of it.
I don't think the worst cases of the Brain Eater are necessarily
health related: look at Stephen Baxter who went from a unnotable but
not incompetent SF writer in _Voyage_ to the author of a book so awful
that one could only hope WWIII broke out before he wrote again, _Titan_.
I am told that _Titan_ followed a Baxter meeting with the Imperial
College SF club, although sadly I don't know the details.
James Nicoll
Jon Kay
> Also he's a male SF author who is about 50, just the right
> age for the Brain Eater to get him.
There is a compensating effect: writers who don't start 'til late in life.
Connie Willis, Michael Flynn, and Lois McMaster Bujold come to mind.
Somewhere, the ol' Eater has an adversary...
Jon
Andrew Plotkin
What, you mean the Law of Averages?
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Asia2000
: Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
: small-bodied humans?
Poul Anderson dealt with this a couple of times, once on a planet with a
lot of helium (IIRC) in the air to give bat-like humanoids enough lift,
later in "People of the Wind" where he posited a biological afterburner so
that the human-sized avian aliens could have enough energy to get off the
ground.
jeff wiel
[snip]
: I hate to say this, but I am a fan of a select few authors that
: have somehow managed to die before the Brain Eater got 'em,
: and I am grateful that they died. There's this little nagging
: feeling at the back of my mind that wonders if they'd lived if
: somehow they'd have managed to escape said Eater of Brains.
: "Think of all the wonderous books you're missing!" it screams
: at me, but then I imagine myself in that mythical library that
: contains not only all that was ever written, but those works
: that would have been had the writer lived, and as I walk the
: isles I can't bring myself to even touch a book for fear of
: being right.
I'm a fan of a small, elite group of authors who died before ever writing
anything. I'm missing some of the greatest and most memorable literature
ever produced.
: christopher.....
: --
Richard Horton
wrote:
> Laumer is an example of a writer being betrayed by his own
>body: I am told that a knowledgable person can tell the point in
>_The Ultimax Man_ where Laumer had his stroke and that the deficiencies
>in his writing can be used diagnostically. That's interesting and
>horrible at the same time.
>
> Hmmm. Peake might also be an example, come to think of it.
And perhaps the Heinlein of _I Will Fear No Evil_.
I sometimes wonder about Kingsley Amis and _Jake's Thing_, though
that's not quite fair: the writing didn't change, really, but the
subject matter reflected life changes.
Then there are sort of trivial points, like how Borges turned so
sharply to very short pieces after his blindness.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
rrho...@prodigy.net (Richard Horton) spake:
>On 7 Sep 1999 15:13:09 GMT, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
>wrote:
>> Laumer is an example of a writer being betrayed by his own
>>body: I am told that a knowledgable person can tell the point in
>>_The Ultimax Man_ where Laumer had his stroke and that the deficiencies
>>in his writing can be used diagnostically. That's interesting and
>>horrible at the same time.
>> Hmmm. Peake might also be an example, come to think of it.
>And perhaps the Heinlein of _I Will Fear No Evil_.
ITYM _Stranger in a Strange Land_.
<insert standard Heinlein flamewar here>
HTH, HAND.
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
Del Cotter
Asia2000 <sarg...@tree.gateway.net.hk> wrote:
>: Do folks think that one day we could genetically engineer wings onto
>: small-bodied humans?
>
>Poul Anderson dealt with this a couple of times, once on a planet with a
>lot of helium (IIRC) in the air to give bat-like humanoids enough lift,
Neon. This was "The Man Who Counts" (a.k.a. _War of the Wingmen_).
>later in "People of the Wind" where he posited a biological afterburner so
>that the human-sized avian aliens could have enough energy to get off the
>ground.
Thus fundamentally misunderstanding the physiology of flight.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
"Choose the Dark Side... now why would I do a thing like that?"
--Obi-Wan Renton
Ray Blaak
> Poul Anderson dealt with this a couple of times, once on a planet with a
> lot of helium (IIRC) in the air to give bat-like humanoids enough lift,
Now how would that work? Helium rises on Earth because it is less dense than
the rest of the atmosphere. How would at lot free floating helium affect wings?
--
Cheers, The Rhythm is around me,
The Rhythm has control.
Ray Blaak The Rhythm is inside me,
bl...@infomatch.com The Rhythm has my soul.
Danny Sichel
> Laumer is an example of a writer being betrayed by his own
> body: I am told that a knowledgable person can tell the point in
> _The Ultimax Man_ where Laumer had his stroke and that the deficiencies
> in his writing can be used diagnostically. That's interesting and
> horrible at the same time.
Huh. Interesting. I'll have to reread my copy with that in mind.
Are we talking plot or vocabulary?
Del Cotter
Ray Blaak <bl...@infomatch.com> () wrote:
>> Poul Anderson dealt with this a couple of times, once on a planet with a
>> lot of helium (IIRC) in the air to give bat-like humanoids enough lift,
>
>Now how would that work? Helium rises on Earth because it is less dense than
>the rest of the atmosphere. How would at lot free floating helium affect wings?
It would add to the density of the atmosphere without causing narcosis.
Of course, being helium, it wouldn't add a *lot*, but it would add some.
As it happens, though, Anderson used neon, not helium. This could cause
narcosis, but Anderson put just enough into the atmosphere of Diomedes
that it wouldn't, quite.
James Nicoll
Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, in rec.arts.sf.written
>Ray Blaak <bl...@infomatch.com> () wrote:
>
>>> Poul Anderson dealt with this a couple of times, once on a planet with a
>>> lot of helium (IIRC) in the air to give bat-like humanoids enough lift,
>>
>>Now how would that work? Helium rises on Earth because it is less dense than
>>the rest of the atmosphere. How would at lot free floating helium affect wings?
>
>It would add to the density of the atmosphere without causing narcosis.
>Of course, being helium, it wouldn't add a *lot*, but it would add some.
>
>As it happens, though, Anderson used neon, not helium. This could cause
>narcosis, but Anderson put just enough into the atmosphere of Diomedes
>that it wouldn't, quite.
Wasn't _The Man Who Counts_ written before the narcotic effects
were known?
Del Cotter
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>As it happens, though, Anderson used neon, not helium. This could cause
>>narcosis, but Anderson put just enough into the atmosphere of Diomedes
>>that it wouldn't, quite.
>
>Wasn't _The Man Who Counts_ written before the narcotic effects
>were known?
No. It's an old story (1958), but knowledge of inert gas narcosis is
much older. Though I'm surprised to find I don't have any references to
back that up. My failing memory is telling me that xenon had been used
as an anaesthetic before the war, and inert gas narcosis was certainly
treated as old news in Dole's "Habitable Planets for Man" in the early
sixties. Nitrogen narcosis, or "rapture of the deep" is even older, as
old as diving bells.
I'm pretty sure Anderson knew all about it, and conducted his
worldbuilding accordingly. I really like Diomedes and its people.
Nancy Lebovitz
Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, in rec.arts.sf.written
>James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>>Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>As it happens, though, Anderson used neon, not helium. This could cause
>>>narcosis, but Anderson put just enough into the atmosphere of Diomedes
>>>that it wouldn't, quite.
>>
>>Wasn't _The Man Who Counts_ written before the narcotic effects
>>were known?
>
>No. It's an old story (1958), but knowledge of inert gas narcosis is
>much older. Though I'm surprised to find I don't have any references to
>back that up. My failing memory is telling me that xenon had been used
>as an anaesthetic before the war, and inert gas narcosis was certainly
>treated as old news in Dole's "Habitable Planets for Man" in the early
>sixties. Nitrogen narcosis, or "rapture of the deep" is even older, as
>old as diving bells.
>
>I'm pretty sure Anderson knew all about it, and conducted his
>worldbuilding accordingly. I really like Diomedes and its people.
>
turned on argon in an alien atmosphere knocking out explorers. It
took them a while to realize that even the noble gases can have
some effect.
James Nicoll
Also written by Anderson, IMS. Except that I thought it was a
1960s story.
Pat
> >> I have a friend who goes on and on about the decline
> >>in MZB's work which he claims is the result of listening to
> >>adoring fans for too long. I haven't gotten around to reading
> >>MZB yet so can't judge.
>
> >Could be, but MZB isn't physically healthy, either.
>
> Are MZB's alleged problems with writing closely correlated
> to her illness?
>
I think they are. MZB has been known to have diabetes and has had
some mini-strokes. I've seen the effect this combination can have. It's
pretty bad.> >
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mat...@unm.edu