Annotating matches in tournament
gam...@my-deja.com
A strange question I know but can I as a player in a live tournament
request that my match is not recorded in any form?
Thanks
Sean Dakin
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
David Montgomery
>Hi
>A strange question I know but can I as a player in a live tournament
>request that my match is not recorded in any form?
You can bar kibitzers, so you can stop recording done by a third
party.
However, in some cases part of a tournament's attraction is having
late round matches broadcast on closed circuit tv and commented on
by experts. These broadcasts are taped and may be sold by the
organizers. I very much doubt that Tournament Directors who have
gone to the expense and trouble of setting this up would let you
bow out.
An interesting question is what a director should do if one of the
players is recording his own match, while playing, and his opponent
objects. Of course if this recording at all threatens to delay
the tournament, it should be stopped. But I can often play and
record my match faster than other players play. In this case, I
would side with the player recording, because I believe that it
is in the best interest of the game that matches be recorded,
published, and studied. Certainly if play were with a clock I
would allow a player to record his own match -- any delay caused
by this would only hurt the recording player.
--
David Montgomery Beltway Backgammon Club
davidmo...@netzero.net Washington DC area BG Tournaments
monty on FIBS and GG www.cs.umd.edu/~monty/bbc.htm
EdmondT
>players is recording his own match, while playing, and his opponent
>objects. Of course if this recording at all threatens to delay
>the tournament, it should be stopped.
How can you direct someone not to record their own match? What business is it
of anyone elses?
David Montgomery
The time it takes has the potential to affect everyone, and
the tournament director has a responsibility to avoid undue
delays.
Apart from that, one could argue that the prohibition against using
written or mechanical aids apart from score keeping actually prohibits
recording your match. Having a written record of the game can actually
be useful strategically -- let's say it's very early in the game and
a stay or run decision comes up. Often it is easier to get the pipcount
difference from looking at the recorded dice than from counting the
pips on the board.
However, this is very minor. Invariably the players who want their
matches recorded are quite capable of doing a pipcount. And so I agree
with you. If there is no time problem, a player should be able to record
(or have recorded) his own match. And I suggested this to Butch Meese
when he was soliciting comments on the US Rules.
Bob Stringer
>
> [snipped]
> Apart from that, one could argue that the prohibition against using
> written or mechanical aids apart from score keeping actually prohibits
> recording your match.
Just a quick question on keeping score in a tournament match. What's
the custom, if any? Does each guy normally do it in his head, does one
guy usually do it for the both of them, does each guy do whatever he
wants to do, etc.? I know from my chess playing days that in a chess
tournament you're *required* to record each game. Anything like that in
backgammon regarding the score?
Thanks.
Bob Stringer
To reply please replace "REMOVE" with "bob" in my address
Gary Wong
> Just a quick question on keeping score in a tournament match. What's
> the custom, if any? Does each guy normally do it in his head, does one
> guy usually do it for the both of them, does each guy do whatever he
> wants to do, etc.? I know from my chess playing days that in a chess
> tournament you're *required* to record each game. Anything like that in
> backgammon regarding the score?
From the U.S. Backgammon Tournamnet Rules:
5.1 KEEPING SCORE.
Each player shall keep a running match score and
compare his score with opponent's at the start of
every game. In the event of a scoring dispute, a
player not keeping score will be at a disadvantage.
Cheers,
Gary.
--
Gary Wong, Department of Computer Science, University of Arizona
ga...@cs.arizona.edu http://www.cs.arizona.edu/~gary/
Chuck Bower
David Montgomery <mo...@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>In article <19990810160857...@ng-cm1.aol.com>,
>EdmondT <edm...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>An interesting question is what a director should do if one of the
>>>players is recording his own match, while playing, and his opponent
>>>objects. Of course if this recording at all threatens to delay
>>>the tournament, it should be stopped.
>>
>>How can you direct someone not to record their own match? What business
>>is it of anyone elses?
>
>The time it takes has the potential to affect everyone, and
>the tournament director has a responsibility to avoid undue
>delays.
>
>Apart from that, one could argue that the prohibition against using
>written or mechanical aids apart from score keeping actually prohibits
>recording your match. Having a written record of the game can actually
>be useful strategically -- let's say it's very early in the game and
>a stay or run decision comes up. Often it is easier to get the pipcount
>difference from looking at the recorded dice than from counting the
>pips on the board.
>
>However, this is very minor. Invariably the players who want their
>matches recorded are quite capable of doing a pipcount. And so I agree
>with you. If there is no time problem, a player should be able to record
>(or have recorded) his own match. And I suggested this to Butch Meese
>when he was soliciting comments on the US Rules.
I'm amazed that someone could record his/her own match and not
have it result in at least occasional delays. However, if you imagine
that the match were clocked, then maybe it's really the TOTAL time taken
which is the important thing.
A bigger concern for me would be distractions. Does the (unusual)
recording of the match unfairly throw off the concentration of the
player-recorder's opponent.
I'm not trying to start one of the "all is fair in love, war, and
backgammon" threads that some people seem to thrive upon. Allow me to
give a couple examples:
1) A player hollers "ooh-ahh!" after making his/her play and picking
up the dice AFTER EVERY PLAY. If a director is called, how should
s/he rule?
2) A player consistently SLAMS the dice into the cup after making his/
her move. What should the director say/do if called?
Case 1 is unusual and not typically a part of backgammon. Many (most?)
matches procede with few if any words spoken between the combatants.
Case 2 is different. Certainly everyone has to put the dice back in
the cup. Regulating how that is done seems a bit overburdening.
Where does match recording enter here? Since it is extremely unusual
for a player to record his/her own match (I've never seen it and prior
to David's post had only heard of it occurring once), then I feel if a
player sincerely (in the judgement of the director) feels that his/her
opponent's recording of the match is distracting, then the director
could/should rule that such recording cease for this match.
As far as earlier questions about third party recording, this is
stickier. In the case of 'televised' finals, presumably that was
advertised in the tournament brochure/entry form. Since a player was
informed and had the chance to not enter prior to having paid his/her
entry, then s/he has no argument--play under the conditions (televising/
recording) or forfeit the match.
I'm pretty sure that there are some players who object to having
their matches recorded by anyone. This could be because they don't
want their mistakes advertised, or maybe they don't want their secrets/
tendencies studied. I'm also fairly sure that the current feeling
among the US tournament officials is that a player has the right to ban
recordings of his/her matches (with the possible exception of the above
'televising' situation).
I do think David's "for the good of the game" contention is worth
considering. Whether the present climate is amenable to such an argument
is not so clear.
Chuck
bo...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
c_ray on FIBS
David Montgomery
Chuck Bower <bo...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu> wrote:
> I'm amazed that someone could record his/her own match and not
>have it result in at least occasional delays. However, if you imagine
>that the match were clocked, then maybe it's really the TOTAL time taken
>which is the important thing.
It does slow things down a bit, but it is possible to do it without
playing signiicantly slower. I recorded some of my matches at the last
World Cup, where all the matches are clocked, and I didn't find myself in
time trouble.
> A bigger concern for me would be distractions. Does the (unusual)
>recording of the match unfairly throw off the concentration of the
>player-recorder's opponent.
An opponent who would be genuinely distracted by this lacks any power
of concentration. The recorder is writing down roughly 4 numbers after
each move. The noise and movement from this doesn't come close to the
noise and movement required for a vigorous shake of the dice, let alone
all the other distractions at a tournament.
I recall seeing Hal Heinrich record his own match a long time ago, perhaps
before he got his video equipment. I think that's where I first saw
the destination point notation.
Donald Kahn
>Hi
>A strange question I know but can I as a player in a live tournament
>request that my match is not recorded in any form?
>
>Thanks
>
>Sean Dakin
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Sorry to have to say so, but IMO anyone who would attempt to forbid
the recording of a match is a miserable p***k and my reaction would be
to dispute the matter to the fullest extent possible.
To avoid controversy, the tournament rules should make the matter
plain.
dk
Stig Eide
gam...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hi
> A strange question I know but can I as a player in a live tournament
> request that my match is not recorded in any form?
>
> Thanks
>
> Sean Dakin
>
Hi. Yes, you can. The danish rules states that you can ask any
spectator to leave. I've recorded some matches for friends, and
I've always asked the opponent if it's OK. None has rejected,
but if someone would, that would be alright by me. After all
that's their right, and they could have a dozen good reasons for it.
Good luck! ;)
Stig Eide
EdmondT
>> request that my match is not recorded in any form?
>>
>Hi. Yes, you can. The danish rules states that you can ask any
>spectator to leave.
This is not quite the same thing. The question was can you prevent recording,
and you have show (in Denmark, at least) that you can prevent spectators from
doing so. But what about opponents? Of, for that matter, video cameras?
Stig Eide
Well, the Danish rules also states that use of external devices are
forbidden, if it's not used solely to record the score.
This rule is, of course, not there to prevent recording.
So I guess you would have a hard time convincing the tournament
director that a videocamera should be removed.
Frji58
having a helper record games for him and even then sometimes the players have
to pause from time to time so the person writing the moves has a chance to
catch up. Imagine if how much longer it would take the player himself.
Actually even if there IS someone else recording, IMO your opponent should ask
you if you mind him recording. Most people happily agree, but if not it's not
such a big deal I suppose. I wouldn't go so far as to call someone names for
not wanting his games recorded...
regards,
Michael Ginat
Daniel Murphy
wrote:
>In article <7oqi49$2cj$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>Chuck Bower <bo...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu> wrote:
>> I'm amazed that someone could record his/her own match and not
>>have it result in at least occasional delays. However, if you imagine
>>that the match were clocked, then maybe it's really the TOTAL time taken
>>which is the important thing.
>
>It does slow things down a bit, but it is possible to do it without
>playing signiicantly slower. I recorded some of my matches at the last
>World Cup, where all the matches are clocked, and I didn't find myself in
>time trouble.
I agree with David. I've recorded a few of my own, nontournament
matches. It slowed things down a bit, but not more than to what seemed
to be a deliberate, "important tournament match" speed.
Recording a long match, though, is tiring and demands a lot of
concentration. More power to David if he could record his own matches
in the World Cup and still give the play of the matches the attention
it required, too.
________________________________________________
Daniel Murphy www.cityraccoon.com/
Humlebæk Backgammon Klub www.hbgk.dk/
Raccoon on FIBS www.fibs.com/
Raccoon on GamesGrid too
Daniel Murphy
Bower) wrote:
>In article <7oq45g$8i3$1...@krackle.cs.umd.edu>,
>David Montgomery <mo...@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>
>>However, this is very minor. Invariably the players who want their
>>matches recorded are quite capable of doing a pipcount. And so I agree
>>with you. If there is no time problem, a player should be able to record
>>(or have recorded) his own match. And I suggested this to Butch Meese
>>when he was soliciting comments on the US Rules.
>
> Where does match recording enter here? Since it is extremely unusual
>for a player to record his/her own match (I've never seen it and prior
>to David's post had only heard of it occurring once), then I feel if a
>player sincerely (in the judgement of the director) feels that his/her
>opponent's recording of the match is distracting, then the director
>could/should rule that such recording cease for this match.
>
> As far as earlier questions about third party recording, this is
>stickier. In the case of 'televised' finals, presumably that was
>advertised in the tournament brochure/entry form. Since a player was
>informed and had the chance to not enter prior to having paid his/her
>entry, then s/he has no argument--play under the conditions (televising/
>recording) or forfeit the match.
>
> I'm pretty sure that there are some players who object to having
>their matches recorded by anyone. This could be because they don't
>want their mistakes advertised, or maybe they don't want their secrets/
>tendencies studied. I'm also fairly sure that the current feeling
>among the US tournament officials is that a player has the right to ban
>recordings of his/her matches (with the possible exception of the above
>'televising' situation).
1. Would anyone care to name a "name" player who objects to having
their matches recorded by anyone? Would any "name" player care to
explain the rationale for objecting? Would any "name" player who does
object claim his right to object extends to the tournament final or
other prize rounds?
2. Can anyone name any player in any tournament final about which no
announcement regarding televising or recording the final was made who
objected to the recording of the match?
3. Why are you fairly sure, Chuck, "that the current feeling among the
US tournament officials is that a player as the right to ban
recordings of his/her matches (with the possible exception of the
above 'televising' situation" ? If that's true, does that "current
feeling" apply to all matches? The final match? Semifinals? Money
rounds?
4. Consider: It's the finals of the Perennial Supertournament, or
Monte Carlo, or the tournament you're directing. There's no mention of
recording the match in your tournament brochure because, frankly,
you've never heard of a player refusing to have the final recorded.
But Player Bizarro refuses. What do you do? I know what I'd say:
"It's common practice at backgammon tournaments that the final match
be recorded. It's unheard of that a participant in a final match
objects to the match being recorded. It is in the tournament's
interest to have a copy of the final match. And in the interest of the
players attending the tournament (including, possibly, Bizarro's
opponent). And in the interest of the game of backgammon. All of which
outweighs Bizarro's objections. And therefore the final will be
recorded."
And that's what I'd say regardless of any announcement in the
tournament brochure or omission in the rules.
Tell me I'm wrong and why.
If a rule is needed, then I second David's recommendation that a rule
be added, perhaps to this effect:
DRAFT: Any player of a match may request to record that match or that
it be recorded by a third party, and Tournament Director may request
that any match be recorded by a person chosen by the Tournament
Director, and said requests will be approved by Tournament Director
provided that the recording does not unduly delay or otherwise
interfere with the match.
What was your recommendation to the US rules committee, David?
David Montgomery
Daniel Murphy <rac...@cityraccoon.com> wrote:
>1. Would anyone care to name a "name" player who objects to having
>their matches recorded by anyone? Would any "name" player care to
>explain the rationale for objecting? Would any "name" player who does
>object claim his right to object extends to the tournament final or
>other prize rounds?
I can't, but I'm sure Hal Heinrich could. He told me that one
reason he was going to quit bothering with recording matches was
that too often players objected. The great majority of the matches
he recorded included at least one "name" player.
It's well known that certain "name" players don't want their mistakes
publicly criticized. This would be one reason (well, at least one
motivation) for objecting.
>DRAFT: Any player of a match may request to record that match or that
>it be recorded by a third party, and Tournament Director may request
>that any match be recorded by a person chosen by the Tournament
>Director, and said requests will be approved by Tournament Director
>provided that the recording does not unduly delay or otherwise
>interfere with the match.
>
>What was your recommendation to the US rules committee, David?
I don't have it around anymore, but something like your draft rule.
I think I only addressed the issue of a player wishing to record
or have recorded his own match, and the issue of time -- I didn't
even think of a player objecting to an "official" recording, like
closed circuit televising with video taping.
Chuck Bower
>On 11 Aug 1999 01:03:05 GMT, bo...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Chuck
>Bower) wrote:
(snip)
>3. Why are you fairly sure, Chuck, "that the current feeling among the
>US tournament officials is that a player as the right to ban
>recordings of his/her matches (with the possible exception of the
>above 'televising' situation" ? If that's true, does that "current
>feeling" apply to all matches? The final match? Semifinals? Money
>rounds?
(snip)
Of Daniel's many questions, I think this is the only one directed at
me. (Hopefully not all of them were!) My feeling is based on a
conversation with a director. Since I may have mis-interpreted his/her
feelings, I'm not going to reveal the name in public.
In the past I have queried a handful of US directors when questions
came up on the newsgroup about rulings. I recommend that to Daniel or
anyone else. I have had good responses from the following: Carol Joy
Cole, Bill Davis, Butch Meese, Kent Goulding, and Patrick Gibson. All
of their e-mails can easily be found on the internet by a resourceful
researcher, I believe. And there are a lot of other directors (including
many on other continents) who can be surveyed. I suggest that anyone who
is strongly concerned about this issue should put some time into asking
them.
Lest someone feel that I am opposed to recording of matches, let me
lay that concern to rest. And my amazement at David's ability to record
his own matches remains. (And if anyone chooses to interpret 'amazement'
with 'sketicism', then I can assure you that you are jumping to unfounded
conclusions.) David is a skillful guy. Now if you claim that MOST
players are CURRENTLY capable of recording their own matches, then I
will display skepticism. How does a tournament director distinguish
which players are allowed to record their own matches and which aren't?
When a chess clock is in use, I don't see that it matters. During the
weekly game (or even weekend tournament) where clocks aren't used, though,
I think it's more difficult to quantify.
I've seen enough questionable actions by players and spectators
(including a match recorder, BTW) that I personnally believe that a
director should not have his/her hands tied concerning spectators.
Although I think it's great to have recorded matches of top players
available for the study of all (as for example, Johanni's e-mail match
service part of BACKGAMMON MAGAZIN), I also feel that the tournament
matches are primarily the asset of the paying customers (players) and
if there is a legitimate (definition to be determined by the tournament
director/committee) objection to the recording of a match then that
tournament director should have the option of disallowing such recording.
Having said all that, I'll be playing in a couple weeks and the Labor
Day weekend Indiana Open and if someone would like to show up and record
MY matches, it's OK with me (assuming it's OK with my opponenents). I'm
not embarrassed to have MY mistakes made available to all, as long
as I can learn from them, too. :)