Against a Dark Background by Iain M. Banks
Peter D. Tillman
Against a Dark Background by Iain M. Banks
(1993-95, Orbit, UK#8, ISBN 1857231791). US ed (Bantam pb) OOP.
Rating: "A/A+" -- exemplary tragic space-opera. Highly
recommended -- I liked it better on second reading.
Zefla Franck, once described as nearly two meters of utter
voluptuousness with a brain, strolled along the lane, ...her long
golden hair undone and straggling to the waist of her slinky dress,
her shoes off and held over one shoulder.... The night was warm.
The faint breeze rising from the orchards in the valley below
smelled sweet.
She whistled and watched the sparkling sky, where Maidservant --
Golter's second moon -- shone blue-gray and bounteous near the
horizon -- a great stone-and-silver ship escorted and surrounded by
a school of flickering, glittering lights: habitats and factories,
satellites and mirrors.... It was, Zefla thought, really quite beautiful...
Moonlight and junklight. Junklight. Such a callous, mean-spirited
name for something so beautiful....
She watched a winking satellite move with a perfect, steady
stateliness across the vault.... She [put] her head down to make sure
she wouldn't trip.
She hiccuped suddenly. "Shit!" she said.
Maybe it was looking downward that did it. She looked back up at
the sky and hiccuped again. "Shit shit shit!"
... She was nearly home, and she hated going into the house with
the hiccups; Dloan always made fun of her.
Another hiccup. She growled and fixed all her attention on the
satellite. Her shin hit something hard. "Aow, fuck!"
Zefla hopped around on one foot, clutching her shin. "Ow ow ow!"
she said. She glared at what she'd bumped into: ... a huge pale car,
almost filling the lane outside the house. Zefla glared at the insect-
spattered snout of the auto and muttered.
The shoes she'd beeen carrying dropped from her fingers to the
cobblestones; she hopped on top of the shoes, lost her footing, and
fell with a yelp into the luminous bushes.
She lay in the shrubbery, cradled on her back by the creaking
branches and surrounded by gently glowing leaves. Disturbed
insects buzzed around her head and tickled her bare legs and
forearms.
"Oh, sodomy," Zefla sighed as the door opened...
"Zef?" said a female voice.
"Hell's caries," Zefla groaned. "I might have known. I suppose this
is your car? ....Thought they had collision-avoidance radar."
"It's switched off, " Sharrow said, stooping to retrieve Zefla's shoes
from the cobbles.
Zefla sighed. "Mine, too."
[copyright 1993 Iain M. Banks]
Banks' space operas repay rereading; for me, the second reading is
usually better than the first. I wasn't bowled over by my first go at
Against a Dark Background, but the second time really clicked.
Except for his almost-obligatory Tragic Ending, wherein Zefla -- and
other characters I'd grown fond of (and some I hadn't) -- come to
grief. Oh, weel -- lad's read his Shakespeare tragedies. Not to
mention his European history.
If you want a "real" review, look here (minor SPOILERS):
http://www.cs.latrobe.edu.au/~agapow/Postviews/past_a-ba.html#aadb
And the readers' comments at <http://www.amazon.com>
are interesting and spoiler-free.
But really, making (or renewing) the lush and lovely Zefla's
acquaintance should be incentive enough to motivate you to
bookstore or shelf....
And I'll have to have another go at Feersum Enjin (which I never
quite finished) and, in due time, Excession (which I enjoyed but
which went by me at times).
review copyright 1999 by Peter D. Tillman <til...@aztec.asu.edu>
Read more of my reviews:
http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
Arne Gabriel
>
> Against a Dark Background by Iain M. Banks
> (1993-95, Orbit, UK#8, ISBN 1857231791). US ed (Bantam pb) OOP.
>
> Rating: "A/A+" -- exemplary tragic space-opera. Highly
> recommended -- I liked it better on second reading.
Yes, AaDB is really, really good. I liked it on the first reading, but
that may be just me. I actually bought the book myself (I've read a
friends copy), even though I usually do not re-read books!
Though I do wonder where all those not-so-good reviews that I've seen
came from.
Arne Gabriel
--
(!) to reply via email, remove the "x" in .dex (!)
Harald Radke
>
> Yes, AaDB is really, really good. I liked it on the first reading, but
> that may be just me. I actually bought the book myself (I've read a
> friends copy), even though I usually do not re-read books!
> Though I do wonder where all those not-so-good reviews that I've seen
> came from.
>
Well, I also enjoyed it very much, but my favourite Banksie is still
Use of Weapons, though I have one or two points concerning the plot that
I think are
kinda, uhm, wrong, especially if u know the end.
Anyway, I think AaDB is a nice told story with the typical Banks
flavour. In contrast to lots of other authors, Banks simply lets
some main characters die, when it's time for them. This enables him
to create some really kewl scenarios/situations without the need to
carefully lead
those guys thru the gun fire, lasers...trying to avoid any harm to them.
It hink this is more interesting than a simple showdown at the end,
where you know who will still stand as soon as the dust is gone
and it gives the story a little bit of something more realistic
which I appreciate...
My two cents,
Greez,
Harry
--
Hugh ! Die Ratte hat gesprochen !
--------------------------------------------------------------
harryrat = Harald Radke (E-Mail: harr...@gmx.de ICQ: 364877)
=> University Of Technology Aachen, Germany <=
David Navarro
>
> Arne Gabriel wrote:
> >
> > Yes, AaDB is really, really good. I liked it on the first reading, but
> > that may be just me. I actually bought the book myself (I've read a
> > friends copy), even though I usually do not re-read books!
> > Though I do wonder where all those not-so-good reviews that I've seen
> > came from.
> >
>
> Well, I also enjoyed it very much, but my favourite Banksie is still
> Use of Weapons, though I have one or two points concerning the plot that
> I think are
> kinda, uhm, wrong, especially if u know the end.
>
> Anyway, I think AaDB is a nice told story with the typical Banks
> flavour. In contrast to lots of other authors, Banks simply lets
> some main characters die, when it's time for them. This enables him
> to create some really kewl scenarios/situations without the need to
> carefully lead
> those guys thru the gun fire, lasers...trying to avoid any harm to them.
Well, although I loved AADB, I'd much rather have had the main
character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
--
__________________________________________________
David Navarro http://www.alcaudon.com
__________________________________________________
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Peter D. Tillman
David Navarro http://www.alcaudon.com wrote:
>
>Well, although I loved AADB, I'd much rather have had the main
>character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
>
Here, here!
Especially the luscious Zefla Franck. And her brother Donal, for
that matter. And...
'course this is how Banksie plays with our heads.
And expectations. Formula sf it ain't.
Thank God.
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Book Reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
--
Rarely Asked Question:
In article <19990512190434...@ng-da1.aol.com>,
edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) writes:
If you gain immortallity and the ability to travel faster than light, but
the price was that you would be transformed into a multi million mile long
thread of glowing green energy that could not interact with matter in any
way, would you agree to this?
mvho...@my-deja.com
David Navarro <dna...@anim.dreamworks.com> wrote:
> Well, although I loved AADB, I'd much rather have had the main
> character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
>
That's a bit harsh - the poor girl is just a product of her upbringing
:-)
FWIW I really like Sharrow - some of her one-liners cracked me up:
"How would Madam like to pay?"
<Hands over credit card>
"Eventually"
or
"Are you a eunuch?"
"No"
<Kicks him in the balls>
"Thought not"
Mike
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Arne Gabriel <ar...@viona.dex> spake:
>Peter D. Tillman wrote:
>> Against a Dark Background by Iain M. Banks
>> (1993-95, Orbit, UK#8, ISBN 1857231791). US ed (Bantam pb) OOP.
>> Rating: "A/A+" -- exemplary tragic space-opera. Highly
>> recommended -- I liked it better on second reading.
>
>that may be just me. I actually bought the book myself (I've read a
>friends copy), even though I usually do not re-read books!
>Though I do wonder where all those not-so-good reviews that I've seen
>came from.
A lot of people who hate it stopped reading before they finished it,
I've found... And naturally, you don't understand some of the
characters' behaviors until you get that ending *WHAM* between the eyes.
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
Paul
>In article <378B7604...@anim.dreamworks.com>,
> David Navarro <dna...@anim.dreamworks.com> wrote:
>> Well, although I loved AADB, I'd much rather have had the main
>> character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
>>
>
>That's a bit harsh - the poor girl is just a product of her upbringing
>:-)
>FWIW I really like Sharrow - some of her one-liners cracked me up:
>"How would Madam like to pay?"
><Hands over credit card>
>"Eventually"
>
>or
>"Are you a eunuch?"
>"No"
><Kicks him in the balls>
>"Thought not"
Quite agree - I found Sharrow one of IMB's more endearing characters
(more so than her handgers-on actually). I'd like to see her reappear
in another book, but that's *very* unlikely.
Paul
Kris Dow
>
> A lot of people who hate it stopped reading before they finished it,
>I've found... And naturally, you don't understand some of the
>characters' behaviors until you get that ending *WHAM* between the eyes.
>
Do people actually review books they haven't finished
without putting somewhere in the review "i never managed to get
past X", where X is some point in the book (page 23, the Big
Spaceship Launch, about halfway through, etc.)?
I mean, I'm one of those folk who can't get through
AaDB (or couldn't, last attempt, anyway. I've read more Banks
since then, may help) and I wouldn't dream of reviewing it
as if I'd read it. (My review, in total, would be something
along the lines of "I couldn't really get into it, although
I've tried a couple of times. It just doesn't grab me. My
boyfriend really liked it, though, and normally the stuff he
likes is pretty good.")
-Kris
Bryan
>Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:40:04 +0200:
> A lot of people who hate it stopped reading before they finished it,
I've never understood how people can do that. I was about to say it's
like... but then realised I couldn't come up with a decent simile, so if
anyone can help....
Bryan
Colin Rosenthal
Sorry, I can only come up with indecent ones as well.
--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo
JasonTroy
> >
> >I've never understood how people can do that. I was about to say it's
> >like... but then realised I couldn't come up with a decent simile, so if
> >anyone can help....
Simple. Its like exercising for some people. They cant see the potential
benefits of their efforts so they give up after starting.
But lets be honest here.....doesnt it suck to waste 6 hours of your life on
a book that stinks?
Its a good thing the internet exists to help people preview novels and get
other peoples input. Cuz time is the one thing many of us dont have.
JasonTroy
ps: AADB was excellent imo.
Paul Parker
>Well, although I loved AADB, I'd much rather have had the main
>character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
There were definitely moments when I wouldn't have minded if she'd been
killed off to save the others, although that would have meant that the bad
guys had won which would probably have been worse.
The thing which I never really understood about the book was that a lot was
made of the groups neural bonding (or whatever it was called) and yet it
never seemed to be used, unless I just completely missed any references to
it.
I want one of those mono-wheel thingies. 8-)
--
Paul Parker
"Quantum physics - the dreams that stuff is made of." - Unknown
GCU Cultural Attache
wonderful JasonTroy <nosa...@seatac.net> asserted
>> >> A lot of people who hate it stopped reading before they finished it,
>> >
>> >I've never understood how people can do that. I was about to say it's
>> >like... but then realised I couldn't come up with a decent simile, so if
>> >anyone can help....
>
>Simple. Its like exercising for some people. They cant see the potential
>benefits of their efforts so they give up after starting.
>
>But lets be honest here.....doesnt it suck to waste 6 hours of your life on
>a book that stinks?
Yep, but I can't bear not knowing how it comes out. I may skip a bit, I
may not pay good attention, but I always get to the end. Sometimes I
even read the whole series just to get to the end. The only good defence
is never to start ..
Funny, because I have no such compunction about turning off TV programs
(even movies) after 30 minutes if I detect they are rubbish, but I
always finish a book ..
>
>Its a good thing the internet exists to help people preview novels and get
>other peoples input. Cuz time is the one thing many of us dont have.
No, time is very democratic, it is the one thing we all get 24 hours of
every day 8>.
>
>JasonTroy
>ps: AADB was excellent imo.
>
>
>
GCU Cultural Attache:
Michael Brazier
>
> Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:40:04 +0200:
> >Peter D. Tillman wrote:
> >> Against a Dark Background by Iain M. Banks
> >> (1993-95, Orbit, UK#8, ISBN 1857231791). US ed (Bantam pb) OOP.
> >> Rating: "A/A+" -- exemplary tragic space-opera. Highly
> >> recommended -- I liked it better on second reading.
> >
> >Yes, AaDB is really, really good. I liked it on the first reading, but
> >that may be just me. I actually bought the book myself (I've read a
> >friends copy), even though I usually do not re-read books!
> >Though I do wonder where all those not-so-good reviews that I've seen
> >came from.
>
> characters' behaviors until you get that ending *WHAM* between the eyes.
I _have_ read AaDB, from beginning to end. The ending did not hit me
right between the eyes. Instead it wandered aimlessly away from me into
the depths of infinite space. As far as I could tell the book was
essentially a McGuffin hunt; what did you see in it?
--
Michael Brazier
News Via OIT
<7mklsh$apa$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
> The thing which I never really understood about the book was that a lot
was
> made of the groups neural bonding (or whatever it was called) and yet it
> never seemed to be used, unless I just completely missed any references to
> it.
The bonding wasn't a physical thing it was a personality cohesion thingy.
From what I remember they used it quite obviously during their attack on the
train/monorail thingy. I must admit, though, it was subtle almost to the
point of extinction. But that's the Beauty of Banks
I LOVE SUBTLETY. MORE OF IT, I SAY!!!!!!!!!!
AnthonyO
I'll say it when I feel like it.
London
Chieftain
hoo...@opera.iinet.net.au (Paul) wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:47:14 GMT, mvho...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >In article <378B7604...@anim.dreamworks.com>,
> > David Navarro <dna...@anim.dreamworks.com> wrote:
> >> character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
> >>
> >
upbringing
> >:-)
> >FWIW I really like Sharrow - some of her one-liners cracked me up:
> >"How would Madam like to pay?"
> ><Hands over credit card>
> >"Eventually"
> >
> >or
> >"Are you a eunuch?"
> >"No"
> ><Kicks him in the balls>
> >"Thought not"
>
> Quite agree - I found Sharrow one of IMB's more endearing characters
> (more so than her handgers-on actually). I'd like to see her reappear
> in another book, but that's *very* unlikely.
>
> Paul
Hmmm. To me Sharrow comes over as an absolutely appalling person.
Amoral, selfish, self-obsessed, manipulative, willing to sacrifice
anyone and everything for her own ends.
AaDB is written and structured as a classical tragedy, like King Lear
or Hamlet, in that (nearly) everyone dies at the end. And Sharrow is
the character with the "tragic flaw".
She's been manipulated, sure, by Geis, by the Huhsz, and of course in a
more literal sense by the twins, but the basic fault is hers. Her
friends are living perfectly safe lives until she comes and drags them
back into what's a purely personal problem for her, albeit a dangerous
one. And while Zefla and her brother agree to come straight away, it
was still Sharrow who brought them back into peril. Of course, she
actually had to kidnap and blackmail one of the others to get him to
come with.
The way she's perfectly willing to accept - or even cause - the death
of innocent bystanders, like the Useless King, to get her way - not to
mention the death of her closest friends, and Feril (temporarily) - is
disgusting.
I've often thought of starting a thread entitled "Sharrow: a woman more
sinned against than sinning" (paraphrase from King Lear, for those who
haven't read it). I think it's obvious on which side of the fence I'd
come down on.
Chieftain.
Scott C. Beeler
> Hmmm. To me Sharrow comes over as an absolutely appalling person.
> Amoral, selfish, self-obsessed, manipulative, willing to sacrifice
> anyone and everything for her own ends.
>
> AaDB is written and structured as a classical tragedy, like King Lear
> or Hamlet, in that (nearly) everyone dies at the end. And Sharrow is
> the character with the "tragic flaw".
>
> She's been manipulated, sure, by Geis, by the Huhsz, and of course in a
> more literal sense by the twins, but the basic fault is hers. Her
> friends are living perfectly safe lives until she comes and drags them
> back into what's a purely personal problem for her, albeit a dangerous
> one. And while Zefla and her brother agree to come straight away, it
> was still Sharrow who brought them back into peril. Of course, she
> actually had to kidnap and blackmail one of the others to get him to
> come with.
Who? Cenuij? I don't remember her kidnapping him to go with her at
all. She holds a gun on him so he'll listen to her, so she can tell
him that the *Huhsz* are trying to kidnap him to get to her. Once she
does that he (eventually) decides to go with her, for his own sake.
Miz, Zefla and Dloan come with her immediately because they're her
close friends. I suppose it's her fault that she told them she was
being hunted down and that she decided to accept their help, but I
hardly think that's a fault on the level of the people who actually
are doing the hunting down and killing.
> The way she's perfectly willing to accept - or even cause - the death
> of innocent bystanders, like the Useless King, to get her way - not to
> mention the death of her closest friends, and Feril (temporarily) - is
> disgusting.
The king is the only one who's really a bystander here. I'll agree
with you that the attempt to kill him seems out of bounds to me, but
they had already tried other approaches to getting the book, and it's
*Cenuij* who tries to kill the king without Sharrow knowing AFAICT
(though she doesn't seem too upset with him for trying it afterward).
So even that's not her going out and doing it as soon as she knows
it'll get her the book. Feril and the rest of the group chose to go
with her and help her, despite the danger they all knew they would be
in. I fail to see how accepting their offers of help is a disgusting
tragic flaw.
I see the tragedy surrounding Sharrow as the fact that violence and
death follow her everywhere, almost always through no fault of her
own. The Huhsz hunting her down is based on them exploiting something
a distant ancestor of hers did a long time ago. The destruction of
Lip City is the result of some very stupid scientists trying to open
the Lazy Gun. Everything involving the twins is certainly not her
fault. The bounty hunters get radiated because the Huhsz decided to
just ignore the fact that the hunting permits are extremely dangerous.
Etcetera etcetera. In the later parts of the book Banks makes a lot
of parallels to Sharrow with the Lazy Gun, "the last of the eight",
the embodiment of violence. "All I've ever been was made by weaponry
and death."
--
Scott Beeler scbe...@mindspring.com
Arne Gabriel
> I _have_ read AaDB, from beginning to end. The ending did not hit me
> right between the eyes. Instead it wandered aimlessly away from me
> into the depths of infinite space. As far as I could tell the book
> was essentially a McGuffin hunt; what did you see in it?
The book certainly is not "just" a McGuffin hunt. The quest for the lazy
gun is just a (well implemented) device to get the plot moving.
Apart from having one of Bank's most memorable characters in it, AaDB
tries to answer some "profound" questions... like "what's the meaning of
it all", stuff like that. Though you may not like what you perceive to
be the actual answer, going the way towards finding out was something
Banks managed quite well, IMHO.
Really, I believe AaDB is more subtle than some people think :-)
Arne Gabriel
> Well, although I loved AADB, I'd much rather have had the main
> character eat fiery laser death than most of her friends.
Hmm. Now that me be why some people just didn't get AaDB. I mean, if one
doesn't like the main character, that _may_ spoil the book for some.
Personally, I think Lady Sharrow is one of Bank's best characters to
date. He does a very good job of making the reader understand her
character & motives IMHO. Worked for me, at least. I found I could
really sympathize with her.
I thought the book was rather upbeat for what's basically a tragedy,
too. Maybe I'm just weird.
Scott C. Beeler
> Chieftain <chie...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, she
> > actually had to kidnap and blackmail one of the others to get him to
> > come with.
>
> Who? Cenuij? I don't remember her kidnapping him to go with her at
> all. She holds a gun on him so he'll listen to her, so she can tell
> him that the *Huhsz* are trying to kidnap him to get to her. Once she
> does that he (eventually) decides to go with her, for his own sake.
Oops. Just reread that section. She does stun him and haul him out
to the edge of the city after he shoots the Huhsz kidnapper, but does
let him go after explaining the situation to him. There's still no
way she can *force* him to come with her.
--
Scott Beeler scbe...@mindspring.com
Matthew Stanfield
I agree, but...
> The quest for the lazy gun is just a (well implemented)
> device to get the plot moving.
That is basically what a McGuffin is!
E.G. The uranium in Notorious (Hitchcock coined the 'McGuffin' phrase) or
more recently the briefcase in Pulp Fiction where Tarantino beautifully
takes the McGuffin concept to the extreme by not even revealing what's in
the case. Try reading _Hitchcock on Hitchcock_ for a wonderful insight
into McGuffins and cinematic plots. Character development not plot being
Hitchcock's chief emphasis. The plot, sometimes with a McGuffin, exist
solely to see how a character(s) react in any given situation - usually an
extreme, bizarre or unlikely situation as this allows the creation of
drama, tension and suspense.
..matthew
Arne Gabriel
>
> > The book certainly is not "just" a McGuffin hunt.
>
> I agree, but...
>
> > The quest for the lazy gun is just a (well implemented)
> > device to get the plot moving.
>
> That is basically what a McGuffin is!
> Try reading _Hitchcock on Hitchcock_ for a wonderful insight
> into McGuffins and cinematic plots. Character development not plot
> being Hitchcock's chief emphasis. The plot, sometimes with a McGuffin,
> exist solely to see how a character(s) react in any given situation -
> drama, tension and suspense.
Thanks for the info!
What I meant was, the "McGuffin stuff" is not central to the book in
terms of what Banks wants to say (I believe so, at least). It's like you
wrote, the lazy gun hunt is a device to show how AaDB's characters react
in different situations (most of them extreme, bizarre, highly unlikely
or all of this together).
I'm not sure if there is a lot of character _development_ (getting
killed isn't development, right? ;-) since I guess Sharrow isn't _that_
much of a different person at the end of the story (well, in a way, she
is, but that's a complicated topic I haven't thought about enough), but
there sure are a lot of words put to the effort of character
"examination".
BTW, you could say any book with a plot has some sort of "McGuffin" (a
device for the plot to start), no?
Paul
wrote:
>In article <378c8a1f....@news.m.iinet.net.au>,
> hoo...@opera.iinet.net.au (Paul) wrote:
>> Quite agree - I found Sharrow one of IMB's more endearing characters
>> (more so than her handgers-on actually). I'd like to see her reappear
>> in another book, but that's *very* unlikely.
>>
>> Paul
>
>Hmmm. To me Sharrow comes over as an absolutely appalling person.
>Amoral, selfish, self-obsessed, manipulative, willing to sacrifice
>anyone and everything for her own ends.
Funny isn't it? I don't wee it that way. She's tough, I'd agree, but
her friends volunteer to help (even the one she kidnaps to ensure that
he listens). Her problems are caused by a bunch of religious maniacs
who have a government approved contract to kill her. That would make
most people mistrustful and nasty.
>AaDB is written and structured as a classical tragedy, like King Lear
>or Hamlet, in that (nearly) everyone dies at the end. And Sharrow is
>the character with the "tragic flaw".
I agree about the tragedy, you've picked good examples.
>She's been manipulated, sure, by Geis, by the Huhsz, and of course in a
>more literal sense by the twins, but the basic fault is hers. Her
>friends are living perfectly safe lives until she comes and drags them
>back into what's a purely personal problem for her, albeit a dangerous
>one. And while Zefla and her brother agree to come straight away, it
>was still Sharrow who brought them back into peril. Of course, she
>actually had to kidnap and blackmail one of the others to get him to
>come with.
Not so. She told them that the Huhsz would probably kill them anyway,
so they volunteered. After all, they didn't come from a particularly
peaceful background either.
>The way she's perfectly willing to accept - or even cause - the death
>of innocent bystanders, like the Useless King, to get her way - not to
>mention the death of her closest friends, and Feril (temporarily) - is
>disgusting.
She's no saint, certainly, but the Huhsz pretty much created the
problem, and the World Government legitimised it.
Paul
Roger Gray
> If you gain immortallity and the ability to travel faster than light, but
> the price was that you would be transformed into a multi million mile long
> thread of glowing green energy that could not interact with matter in any
> way, would you agree to this?
No sex, no drugs, no way.
Roger
--
Is all that we see or seem, but a dream within a dream.
Paul Parker
>The bonding wasn't a physical thing it was a personality cohesion thingy.
>From what I remember they used it quite obviously during their attack on
the
>train/monorail thingy. I must admit, though, it was subtle almost to the
>point of extinction. But that's the Beauty of Banks
>
>I LOVE SUBTLETY. MORE OF IT, I SAY!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's time for a re-read...
On the subject of the train attack - I did think that the radioactive
hunting permits plan was inspired, albeit ultimately ineffective since the
Huhsz didn't seem to care who they irradiated in their quest.
Matthew Stanfield
> device for the plot to start), no?
Yeah, well, umm, err, sort of, umm, no. Hitchcock defined a McGuffin as an
object so unless that's there then it's not really a McGuffin. It really
has to be The Maltese Falcon, the tapes in Diva, the rings in TLOTR or the
transit papers in Casablanca. It's got to be a material object and not
love, ambition, revenge or any other non-physical-object plot device.
Regards,
..matthew
Arne Gabriel
OK, I see. But in that case, one might argue that AaDB is not a McGuffin
hunt at all, because the plot is started (and furthered) because the
cult wants to kill Sharrow. That lazy gun search happens later because
of this vedetta thing, and the lazy gun itself does have a more direct
impact on the story/characters (like the passage where Sharrow
"identifies" with the lazy gun) than the tapes in Diva or the suitcase
in Pulp Fiction. (You could probably say that about the Ring in TLOTR,
too).
Anyway, I guess we all agree that AaDB is a great book, regardless of
the number of McGuffins used therein :-)
Matthew Stanfield
> hunt at all, because the plot is started (and furthered) because the
> cult wants to kill Sharrow. That lazy gun search happens later because
> of this vedetta thing, and the lazy gun itself does have a more direct
> impact on the story/characters (like the passage where Sharrow
> "identifies" with the lazy gun) than the tapes in Diva or the suitcase
> in Pulp Fiction. (You could probably say that about the Ring in TLOTR,
> too).
>
> Anyway, I guess we all agree that AaDB is a great book, regardless of
> the number of McGuffins used therein :-)
Hi There,
I am in total and complete agreement with you and, if you remember, in my
first post in this thread I wrote in response to you:
--
> The book certainly is not "just" a McGuffin hunt.
I agree, but...
> The quest for the lazy gun is just a (well implemented)
> device to get the plot moving.
That is basically what a McGuffin is!
--
I was just into clarifying what a McGuffin was rather than trying to argue
that AADB was a McGuffin hunt. Anyway a McGuffin can be part of a
film/book it doesn't have to be the 'be all and end all' of the whole
story. So it would be fair to say that AADB has a McGuffin in it, as does
TLOTR, Diva and PF.
Regards,
..matthew
Arne Gabriel
> I am in total and complete agreement with you
I know :-)
I was just arguing for the fun of it (and to have someone exlain to me
what a McGuffin is).
Anton Sherwood
: > .... Hitchcock defined a McGuffin
: > as an object so unless that's there then it's not really a McGuffin.
: > It really has to be The Maltese Falcon, the tapes in Diva, the rings
: > in TLOTR or the transit papers in Casablanca. It's got to be a
: > material object and not love, ambition, revenge or any other
: > non-physical-object plot device.
Not even intangible information?
What is the mcguffin in "North by Northwest"?
"Casablanca" is a poor example. Who has the transit papers is not in
much doubt, yet there's no serious effort (iirc) to steal or swindle
them from him. You might as well say my gun is a mcguffin because
you don't know whether I'm going to sell it, or shoot somebody, or
leave it in the closet.
Arne Gabriel <ar...@viona.dex> writes
: OK, I see. But in that case, one might argue that AaDB is not a McGuffin
: hunt at all, because the plot is started (and furthered) because the
: cult wants to kill Sharrow. [...]
So if the quest has a prior motive, it's not a mcguffin plot? Damn.
I've been saying that the movie "Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels"
has three mcguffins, but on this argument at least one of them is not a
true mcguffin at all, because our heroes chase it for the same motive
as Sharrow.
--
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* http://www.jps.net/antons/
Matthew Stanfield
If you read the thread starting with Arne's posting on 16/07/99 it will
make more sense. If you really want to know about McGuffins read the
appropriate chapter in 'Hitchcock on Hitchcock'. After all it was he who
gave the name to the concept.
> What is the mcguffin in "North by Northwest"?
There is none. NBN relies on one of the oldest of plot devices, that of
mistaken identity, this idea is almost certainly as old as drama itself.
> "Casablanca" is a poor example. Who has the transit papers is not in
> much doubt, yet there's no serious effort (iirc) to steal or swindle
> them from him. You might as well say my gun is a mcguffin because
> you don't know whether I'm going to sell it, or shoot somebody, or
> leave it in the closet.
I think Casablanca is a perfectly good example. The entire plot revolves
around the transit papers. From the very beginning *almost* every scene
concerns the actual stolen transit papers or someone's desire to leave
Casablanca for which they need some kind of transit papers (OK so the
Paris flashbacks are the exception.) Even the semi-intimate scenes between
Rick and Elsa all concern the transit papers and 'what are we going to do
about leaving this place'.
Your gun could also easily be a McGuffin; in fact guns are a classic
McGuffin - The Guns of Naverone for example. This bit of the thread also
was triggered by whether 'The Lazy Gun' is a McGuffin and your own example
in "Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" must have the shotguns as one of
the three McGuffins you mention.
Hitchcock didn't say that the whole plot has to revolve around something
for it to be a McGiffin just that whatever it is plays a 'reasonably
significant' role in the plot. So I'm happy with the shotguns and the Lazy
Gun being McGuffins even though the entire story does not revolve around
them.
Regards,
..matthew
Hakan Koseoglu
hopefully), I've decided to close down the cloaking device. :) I hope
these messages get through.
AG> Personally, I think Lady Sharrow is one of Bank's best characters
AG> to
AG> date. He does a very good job of making the reader understand her
AG> character & motives IMHO. Worked for me, at least. I found I could
AG> really sympathize with her.
AG> I thought the book was rather upbeat for what's basically a
AG> tragedy,
AG> too. Maybe I'm just weird.
Although I find UoW as a repeat of AaDB (in my order of reading), both
of the books were wonderful. Sharrow is one of the coolest characters.
No one is like her. Horza is nearly pitiful, Zakalwe is unlovable.
Bascule is strange... Sharrow, on the other hand, is a woman to fall in
love with. :) (I just don't like Sma, she's not my tipe. :)) ).
.. Time to see your vet, kitty!
Hakan Koseoglu
SB> go
SB> with her and help her, despite the danger they all knew they would
SB> be
SB> in. I fail to see how accepting their offers of help is a
SB> disgusting
SB> tragic flaw.
Especially, Feril was too eager to follow her into adventures. Until
his so called death, Feril was enjoying all of the moments and more
than one times he expressed that he would be delighted to remember his
time with Sharrow with pleasure for the coming centuries. :)
I suspected Feril as one of the bad guys for a time, later I realized
that he was just a simple "man", transforming a boring life into an
enjoyable one, a vagabond.
SB> I see the tragedy surrounding Sharrow as the fact that violence
SB> and
SB> death follow her everywhere, almost always through no fault of her
SB> own.
As it is said, it is really a good tragedy.
SB> "All I've ever been was made by weaponry and death."
But by her choice, at least initially.
.. Captain, why not just give the Borg Windows 95? -- Lt. Worf
Roger Kirkham
I find Lady Sharrow excellent company, frighteningly competant, beautiful
and witty. But like so many of Bank's characters (both male and female) I'm
not sure I like her very much.
In Bank's Sci-Fi books, the fact that so many of the characters leave a
trail of misery and destruction and failure in their wake is almost
comforting. Banks seems to be saying that even if you are as talented and
blessed as this, things can still go wrong for you. Its the humane and at
times pathetic touches that make his Sci-Fi so much better than the rest of
the genre.
- roGER