Masters of illusion
Wally Keeler
news:3b6c222f...@news.sprint.ca...
> "Wally Keeler" <poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
> >On the day after filming began on Ararat -- Atom Egoyan's new film--
notices
> >appeared in several Toronto newspapers that Egoyan and his crew were on
> >location, somewhere in Armenia.
> >
> >The news couldn't have come as more of a surprise to Phillip Barker,
> >Egoyan's production designer, as he stood in a parking lot on Cherry
Beach,
> >overlooking Toronto's harbour, supervising the construction of a street
in a
> >city that was virtually destroyed more than 80 years ago.
>
> Phony as ever.
What is?
Atom Egoyan?
Atom Egoyan's movie?
Phillip Barker?
Cherry beach?
What is phoney?
I'm not looking to insult, or set you up, but there is no subject to your
sentence.
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>
>What is?
>Atom Egoyan?
>Atom Egoyan's movie?
>Phillip Barker?
>Cherry beach?
>What is phoney?
Cherry beach is not.
Wally Keeler
So I am correct to assume that you regard all the rest as phoney as ever?
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>So I am correct to assume that you regard all the rest as phoney as ever?
Only if your command of English allows so, but you know what?
You could substitute Christopher H. Smith for Phillip Barker.
He, as a representative of a rogue state (as the U.S.
often reffered to in W. Europe these days,
for not living up to her international responsibilities)
certainly not in a position to pass a moral judgement.
So in addition to phony (FYI. this is the preffered spelling in
Canadian English) he is not only a phony, but a hypocrite as well.
I hope this helps.
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> On Sat, 4 Aug 2001 21:44:50 -0400, "Wally Keeler"
> <poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>
> >So I am correct to assume that you regard all the rest as phoney as ever?
>
> Only if your command of English allows so,
It's still not a clear answer. From the list I made, am I correct to assume
that you regard all the items, except Cherry Beach, as phoney as ever?
> but you know what?
> You could substitute Christopher H. Smith for Phillip Barker.
I suppose I "could", but do you?
> He, as a representative of a rogue state (as the U.S.
> often reffered to in W. Europe these days,
> for not living up to her international responsibilities)
> certainly not in a position to pass a moral judgement.
What moral judgement of Phillip Barker is being referred to? I looked back
at the original statement on which you commented and all I read was:
"The news couldn't have come as more of a surprise to
Phillip Barker, Egoyan's production designer, as he stood
in a parking lot on Cherry Beach, overlooking Toronto's
harbour, supervising the construction of a street in a
city that was virtually destroyed more than 80 years ago.
I don't see a moral judgement in that, but perhaps there is one implied that
you see, that I am missing. Please illuminate.
> So in addition to phony (FYI. this is the preffered spelling in
> Canadian English)
No it isn't. In Canada, English spelling can be accepted either in the
USAmerican way or British way. That's what my Canadian education taught me
and continues to have taught my son. Were you taught Canadian spelling in
the Hungarian school system? Science and math are much more advanced in the
Hungarian school system compared to the Ontario school system, at least
insofar as the knoweldge my son as displayed to me. Very good. He also takes
English class there and I have found a few flaws in that specific regard.
> he is not only a phony, but a hypocrite as well.
> I hope this helps.
It's okay. It wasn't what was asked for, however. I only wanted to know if
you regard Atom Egoyan as phoney as ever. And whether you regarded Atom
Egoyan's movies as phoney as ever. Perhaps I "could" substitute Smith for
Barker, but do you substitute one for the other?
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>It's still not a clear answer. From the list I made, am I correct to assume
>that you regard all the items, except Cherry Beach, as phoney as ever?
OK. I'll spell it out for you
Y. E. S.
Read the news article again.
>I suppose I "could", but do you?
I not only could, but I do.
>What moral judgement of Phillip Barker is being referred to? I looked back
>at the original statement on which you commented and all I read was:
P.B. doesn't really fit in there perfectly, for this reason I swapped
him for the other guy. He does fit well.
>No it isn't.
Please consult your dictionary.
My dictionary is called: The Canadian Oxford.
>In Canada, English spelling can be accepted either in the
>USAmerican way or British way.
That is true, but we have our preferred ways.
>That's what my Canadian education taught me and continues to have taught my son.
Very well.
>Were you taught Canadian spelling in the Hungarian school system?
No. I was taught Russian there.
Later I brushed up on my German that I already understood to a certain
level in my childhood.
Then I learned English, then some Turkish, Persian and Arabic.
Now I study Japanese, when I am not wasting my time with you, that is.
>Science and math are much more advanced in the
>Hungarian school system compared to the Ontario school system, at least
>insofar as the knoweldge my son as displayed to me.
Not only in comparison to Ontario, but if I remember correctly 4th
best on the world-scale.
>He also takes
>English class there and I have found a few flaws in that specific regard.
About their English ? :-)>
>It's okay. It wasn't what was asked for, however. I only wanted to know if
>you regard Atom Egoyan as phoney as ever.
I was not referring to him as a person, but rather to the topic in
question. Nonetheless E., proved the the validity of the old
saying again. Birds of a feather ...
>And whether you regarded Atom Egoyan's movies as phoney as ever.
Haven't seen any of them.
>Perhaps I "could" substitute Smith for
>Barker, but do you substitute one for the other?
Yes, I certainly do.
It is easy for a bullyboy to pick on the Magyars and Turks,
but let us see if he can find someone his own size.
What about Russia's "policies" in Chechnya or China's in
Eastern-Turkistan?
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:58:39 -0400, "Wally Keeler"
> <poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>
> >It's still not a clear answer. From the list I made, am I correct to
assume
> >that you regard all the items, except Cherry Beach, as phoney as ever?
>
> OK. I'll spell it out for you
> Y. E. S.
> Read the news article again.
I read the news article twice. Thank you, finally, for the answer.
> >I suppose I "could", but do you?
>
> I not only could, but I do.
That's all I asked, what YOUR assertion was.
> >What moral judgement of Phillip Barker is being referred to? I looked
back
> >at the original statement on which you commented and all I read was:
>
> P.B. doesn't really fit in there perfectly, for this reason I swapped
> him for the other guy. He does fit well.
But what elements of Phillip Barker's "moral judgement" do fit?
> >No it isn't.
>
> Please consult your dictionary.
> My dictionary is called: The Canadian Oxford.
>
> >In Canada, English spelling can be accepted either in the
> >USAmerican way or British way.
>
> That is true, but we have our preferred ways.
My preferred way is "phoney", yours is "phony". Accepted. It's a petty issue
anyway -- but one you brought up.
> >That's what my Canadian education taught me and continues to have taught
my son.
>
> Very well.
>
> >Were you taught Canadian spelling in the Hungarian school system?
>
> No. I was taught Russian there.
>
> Later I brushed up on my German that I already understood to a certain
> level in my childhood.
>
> Then I learned English, then some Turkish, Persian and Arabic.
Commendable. But then again, coming from me, ...
> Now I study Japanese, when I am not wasting my time with you, that is.
I guess there will be no end to your insults. I haven;t insulted you in this
thread -- tried to maintain a respectful dialogue. I am sure you are capable
of the same.
> >Science and math are much more advanced in the
> >Hungarian school system compared to the Ontario school system, at least
> >insofar as the knoweldge my son as displayed to me.
>
> Not only in comparison to Ontario, but if I remember correctly 4th
> best on the world-scale.
>
> >He also takes
> >English class there and I have found a few flaws in that specific regard.
>
> About their English ? :-)>
Yes.
> >It's okay. It wasn't what was asked for, however. I only wanted to know
if
> >you regard Atom Egoyan as phoney as ever.
>
> I was not referring to him as a person, but rather to the topic in
> question.
The topic not being Cherry Beach I presume. Why is it that you seem to avoid
direct clear answers? I listed E. and you said Y E S to his being phoney as
ever, as well as to E.s movies. It's a bit confusing. Is it the movie Ararat
that you regard as phoney as ever, or E. or what?
> Nonetheless E., proved the the validity of the old
> saying again. Birds of a feather ...
What birds? Canadian? Egyptian? Armenian?
> >And whether you regarded Atom Egoyan's movies as phoney as ever.
>
> Haven't seen any of them.
But you asserted Y. E. S. to the listing which included E's movies as being
"phony as ever" Perhaps I was wrong when I asked you and you spelled it out
to me in that manner.
> >Perhaps I "could" substitute Smith for
> >Barker, but do you substitute one for the other?
>
> Yes, I certainly do.
Okay. Perhaps everyone except me understands the logic of replacing one
person with another person -- birds of a feather and all that.
> It is easy for a bullyboy to pick on the Magyars and Turks,
> but let us see if he can find someone his own size.
What bully? E.? W.? B.? or someone else?
> What about Russia's "policies" in Chechnya or China's in
> Eastern-Turkistan?
What about them? What does that have to do with the movie? I'm not sure how
you connect them.
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>But what elements of Phillip Barker's "moral judgement" do fit?
He is a major henchman of a phony.
>I guess there will be no end to your insults.
That was not an insult, I just stated the fact.
>I haven;t insulted you in this thread -- tried to maintain a respectful dialogue.
Keep up the good work and you might win some people's respect.
>I am sure you are capable of the same.
I certainly am.
>Is it the movie Ararat
>that you regard as phoney as ever, or E. or what?
For one thing it was (falsely) implied as it was filmed on the
original location, but in reality they just played around in the
sand, -- in Red Deer.
>What birds? Canadian? Egyptian? Armenian?
Yes, Armenian.
I am disgusted about the way how the Armenian lobby tries to piggyback
on the Holocaust.
>But you asserted Y. E. S. to the listing which included E's movies as being
>"phony as ever" Perhaps I was wrong when I asked you and you spelled it out
>to me in that manner.
No.
I was talking about the topic as I already indicated this.
>Okay. Perhaps everyone except me understands the logic of replacing one
>person with another person -- birds of a feather and all that.
Well, it is about a certain group of people: phonies and hypocrites.
>What bully? E.? W.? B.? or someone else?
>
>> What about Russia's "policies" in Chechnya or China's in
>> Eastern-Turkistan?
>
>What about them? What does that have to do with the movie? I'm not sure how
>you connect them.
You see; this is why I was talking about wasting my time, I can not go
back with you to Adam and Eve, but do not get disheartened, I am
positive someone else will help you if you keep trying.
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> "Wally Keeler"<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
> >But what elements of Phillip Barker's "moral judgement" do fit?
>
> He is a major henchman of a phony.
PB is a "production designer" for a movie set.
CS is a member of the US House of Representatives.
PB recreated a street scene as he saw them in photographs, and included an
authentic rug provided by a 92 year old former inhabitant of the city in
which that street scene occurs.
CS pontificates on this or that human rights issue.
PB is a born Brit who moved to Canada when he was 12.
CS is a born and bred USAmerican.
PB has an accomplished artistic background.
CS has an accomplished political background.
PB is simply earning his living by designing movie sets.
> Keep up the good work and you might win some people's respect.
I simply wish to avoid sinking to your level once again.
> >I am sure you are capable of the same.
>
> I certainly am.
Continue to do so.
> >Is it the movie Ararat
> >that you regard as phoney as ever, or E. or what?
>
> For one thing it was (falsely) implied as it was filmed on the
> original location, but in reality they just played around in the
> sand, -- in Red Deer.
So? Every movie ever made is created under such circumstances.
And it wasn;t just there. It was also on Cherry Beach in Toronto. I was
there and saw the prop. It was very well done.
> >What birds? Canadian? Egyptian? Armenian?
>
> Yes, Armenian.
> I am disgusted about the way how the Armenian lobby tries to piggyback
> on the Holocaust.
How should they do it?
> >But you asserted Y. E. S. to the listing which included E's movies as
> > being
> >"phony as ever" Perhaps I was wrong when I asked you and you spelled it
> >out to me in that manner.
>
> No.
> I was talking about the topic as I already indicated this.
Not in the beginning you didn't. I had to pry it out of you. At the top of
your previous missive and all the missives previous to that, you made no
reference to "topic" whatsoever. You had NOT indicated that it was the TOPIC
that was of concern to you.
> >Okay. Perhaps everyone except me understands the logic of replacing one
> >person with another person -- birds of a feather and all that.
>
> Well, it is about a certain group of people: phonies and hypocrites.
So that is B? W? E? S? AL? How do you know E is a phoney & hypocrite? How do
you know the AL is phoney and hypocritical?
> >What bully? E.? W.? B.? or someone else?
Who is the bully to which you had referred? You did assert there was a bully
but left them unidentified. Are people supposed to guess?
> >> What about Russia's "policies" in Chechnya or China's in
> >> Eastern-Turkistan?
> >
> >What about them? What does that have to do with the movie? I'm not sure
> >how you connect them.
>
> You see; this is why I was talking about wasting my time, I can not go
> back with you to Adam and Eve,
No one is asking you to go back to A&E. Just asking how they relate to E's
movie.
> but do not get disheartened, I am
> positive someone else will help you if you keep trying.
Just trying to obtain some clarity from you. I doubt that anyone on this
list could make a connection between the movie Ararat and Russia or China's
policies.
Wally Keeler
> "Wally Keeler"<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
> > Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> > > "Wally Keeler"<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >What moral judgement of Phillip Barker is being referred to?
> > > > I looked back at the original statement on which you
> > > > commented and all I read was:
> > >
> > > P.B. doesn't really fit in there perfectly, for this reason
> > > I swapped him for the other guy. He does fit well.
> >
>
> He is a major henchman of a phony.
Okay, so first you swap Phillip Barker for Chris Smith, because Chris Smith
was better suited for your agenda, whatever that was, but there was no
reference to Chris Smith in the article, nor was there any reference in any
of Chris Smith's speeches to Armenia, Egoyan, or anything else in the story.
It appeared to be a dead end tangent. However, there is some sort of
connection which you asserted was "moral judgement". So the accomplished
auteur, Atom Egoyan, is a phoney in your estimation, even though you have
never seen any of his movies, and because Egoyan is a phoney, this makes
Phillip Barker's "moral judgement" somewhat similar to Chris Smith -- a
phoney and hypocrite. So Phillip Barker is a hypocrite because he agreed to
be a production designer for Atom Egoyan.
> >Is it the movie Ararat
> >that you regard as phoney as ever, or E. or what?
>
> For one thing it was (falsely) implied as it was filmed on the
> original location, but in reality they just played around in the
> sand, -- in Red Deer.
However, it was not "falsely implied" to be filmed on the original location.
The article was quite clear about where it was filmed -- Cherry Beach.
Furthermore, it was never filmed "in Red Deer" as you assert. I am sorry
that your ability to retain information from articles that you read is
declining. There was absolutely no mention of Red Deer in the article to
which this thread originates. In another article which I posted, there is
reference to "Horse Thief Canyon, 20 minutes east of Drumheller, Alta.";
furthermore Egoyan referred to "the setting ... [Little Fish Creek Lake] is
like Lake Van." There is no reference to Red Deer anywhere. Perhaps you had
a hallucination?
> >What birds? Canadian? Egyptian? Armenian?
>
> Yes, Armenian.
> I am disgusted about the way how the Armenian lobby tries to piggyback
> on the Holocaust.
I read through the article and could find no reference to the Holocaust.
Indeed, I read through all of the articles and there was no reference
whatsoever to the Holocaust. The only person who seems to have this delusion
is yourself. The author of the article in which this thread initiated is
Rick McGinnis and that doesn't appear to me to be a member of the "Armenian
lobby." I looked at the names of the authors of the other articles and they
don't have the appearance of being Armenian -- indeed I can vouch absolutely
that one of the journalists, Bob Thompson (Toronto Sun), is not Armenian
because he and I went to school together in Cobourg. It appears that you are
disgusted because an exceedingly talented Armenian-Canadian decided the tell
the story of an traumatic occurance that happened to E's people as he/they
saw it. Of course, there were some who were disgusted by the movie,
Schindler's List. I can now better understand why you would be disgusted by
E's movie. But you are entitled to your disgust just as I am entitled to
appreciate E's freedom of talented expression.
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>However, it was not "falsely implied" to be filmed on the original location.
>The article was quite clear about where it was filmed -- Cherry Beach.
"On the day after filming began on Ararat -- Atom Egoyan's new film--
notices appeared in several Toronto newspapers that Egoyan and his
crew were on location, somewhere in Armenia."
>Furthermore, it was never filmed "in Red Deer" as you assert.
If you could look at a map you'll see that these locations are not too
far from each other at all. Further I never asserted that they filmed
there, that was your assertion.
>I am sorry
>that your ability to retain information from articles that you read is
>declining.
So am I about your ability to analyse two liners.
>Perhaps you had
>a hallucination?
Hm.
>I can now better understand why you would be disgusted by
>E's movie.
I understand that you don't understand shit about this topic.
>But you are entitled to your disgust just as I am entitled to
>appreciate E's freedom of talented expression.
But you're entitled to appreciate whatever you want just as much,
as I have the right to be disgusted about I want to.
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> "Wally Keeler"<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
> >However, it was not "falsely implied" to be filmed on the original
location.
> >The article was quite clear about where it was filmed -- Cherry Beach.
>
> "On the day after filming began on Ararat -- Atom Egoyan's new film--
> notices appeared in several Toronto newspapers that Egoyan and his
> crew were on location, somewhere in Armenia."
The article (Masters of Illusion) was quite clear about where it was
filmed -- Cherry Beach.
> >Furthermore, it was never filmed "in Red Deer" as you assert.
>
> If you could look at a map you'll see that these locations are not too
> far from each other at all. Further I never asserted that they filmed
> there, that was your assertion.
You did so make the assertion:
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in
message news:3b6d9fb1...@news.sprint.ca...
"...but in reality they just played around in the
sand, -- in Red Deer."
Produce the quote and message id where I made the assertion. Do it or shut
up with your continual false accusations. You initiated the location as
being Red Deer -- not me. There was no reference in any of the news articles
whatsoever of Red Deer. In any event -- Red Deer has paved streets, lawns,
etc. I suggest you visit there -- it's a delightful place -- for a few days.
> >Of course, there were some who were disgusted by the movie,
> >Schindler's List. I can now better understand why you would
> >be disgusted by E's movie.
>
> I understand that you don't understand shit about this topic.
I understand that you can't write shit about anything -- you bullshitted
your way throught this particular thread, making false assertions. And you
certainly know shit about E's reknown talent to produce movies -- having not
seen any of them. But then again, there are those who pre-judge things,
those who are over the brim with prejudices, especially prejudices towards a
certain community -- in this instance and in your case -- Armenians. In this
regard you share much with your compatriot Gilgames -- he is full of
prejudice about the movie Sunshine, which he never saw. And you did assert
that E's movies were phoney, even without having seen any of them -- quite a
feat of prejudice.
> >But you are entitled to your disgust just as I am entitled to
> >appreciate E's freedom of talented expression.
>
> But you're entitled to appreciate whatever you want just as much,
> as I have the right to be disgusted about I want to.
"...disgusted about I want to." Of course Gustav, of course. No go back and
learn yer grammer and maybe someday you will make sense. In any event, there
is no reason to repeat what I wrote, especially, when I wrote it
competently.
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>No go back and
>learn yer grammer
This is perhaps the very thing I would fuss about if I had nothing
smarter to say.
vedat
Wally Keeler
And, as usual, you don't.
Stephen Dancs
>
>> War that Norman Podhoretz declared that Israel was the religion of the
>> American Jews. [...]
>
> To be perfectly honest I don't give a shit about what American Jews do
> or not do.
The point's not whether you give a shit about it or not, but a possible
explanation for the current Holocaustomania that "erupted" from about
1967.
>>So was the American Indian holocaust preceeding it and the WWII holocausts
>>of various non-Aryan people (Gypsies, Slavs, to name two) that run
>>parallel with the Jewish holocaust, or those were based on some other kind
>>of racial superiority theories, huh? ;-)
>
> Racism yes, but not total extermination in any of these
> cases to my best knowlegde. The Gypsies maybe, but you know who
> knows this better.
It looks like your "best knowledge" sucks big time, pal.
>>To use your definition then, we shall discount everyone shot and dropped
>>into mass graves by the Einsatzgruppen from the total massacred, shan't
>>we? ;-)
>
> What I was saying all the quoted elements were present in the case of
> the Jews in general, if some of those were not present
> in some cases that doesn't change the outlook of the whole.
All of your "quoted elements" were present in the case of all non-Aryans
whether you like to admit it or not. And when one compares the ca. 1.3
million Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen to the 1.4 million Jews + others
(maybe even less) killed at Auschwitz, out goes the holo-causton ("by
fire") in "the outlook of the whole" (this not to mention the fact that
the loss of life wasn't by fire, as in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or carpet
bombed German & Japanese cities, only corpses "died" by fire at the death
camps.
>>No kidding? What about whole Armenian villages burned to the ground,
>>Armenians herded into churches and caves that were set on fire, etc,
>>weren't they burnt? ;=)
>
> I have no knowledge of those.
>
> Many things were circulated, do remember the story about the Hun
> that ate Belgian children alive, crucified Canadian soldiers etc., and
> Turkey was an ally of Germany.
Exactly, yet, nevertheless, German ambassador Count von Wolff-Metternich,
wrote his government in 1916:
"The Committee [of Union and Progress] demands the annihilation of the
last remnants of the Armenians and the [Ottoman] government must bow to
its demands."
ref.: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
"In its attempt to carry out its purpose to resolve the Armenian question
by the destruction of the Armenian race, the Turkish government has
refused to be deterred neither by our representations, nor by those of the
American Embassy, nor by the delegate of the Pope, nor by the threats of
the Allied Powers, nor in deference to the public opinion of the West
representing one half of the world."
--Count Wolff-Metternich, German Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire
July 10, 1916, cable to the German Chancellor
ref.: http://aaainc.org/genocideintro.htm
During my stay in Germany (1989-92), I also remember reading a fairly
detailed article on the Armenian genocide that appeared in "Der Spiegel"
in which the cables, diaries, memoirs, etc. of countless representatives
of the German government in Turkey were widely quoted. It caused a huge
uproar among the Turks of Germany who lined up the newspaper stands early
in the morning to buy up all the existing copies so as to prevent the rest
of us from reading them; whatmore, the issues destined for Turkey had the
Armenian genocide pages glued together, again, to impede their reading.
> I also read one time, that the gas chambers were not invented by the
> Nazis, but by the Turks who hoarded the victims into caves, sealed the
> entrances and introduced swamp gas into the cave.
>
> This cave story is even better then yours, if you wish you can believe
> in that also.
There's no simpler method of mass killing than amassing people in close
enclosures and then expose them to poisonous gases, I don't know what you
find so unbelivable about this method, on the contrary, the "problem"
isn't with the production of the corpses but with _their disposal_ and
it's rather the "3.5kg of coke/corpse" at Auszhwitz (read reduce nr. of
corpses cremated by an order of magnitude at the very least) that makes me
scratch my head than the number of mg of HCN/person needed to produce a
corpse. ;-)
And what's so hard to believe about being burned alive in a church for
example? One needs to look no further than the July 10, 1941 Jedwabne
(northeastern Poland) massacre in which some 200-1,600 (depending on whom
you ask) Jews were burned alive by their Polish neighbours in a village
barn.
>>Or you rather wanted to say that it was a Muslim v. Christian and not a
>>racial thing, in which case, may I say that you've missed the whole point
>>of the Armenian and Jewish genocides,
>
> No, it was a political thing. A war of independence and its
> suppression.
>
> I mean no offence but I think you're not very familiar with the Turks
> vs. Armenians issue.
>
> The Armenians similarly to other nations got the 19 th century idea
> about nationalism and nation state, which they accidentally never had
> in the last 2000 yrs or so.
Well, if the nation state is a "19 th century idea" (which it is, for
before it, class differences between the rulers and their subjects was the
norm), how were they supposed to have it for "the last 2000 yrs", huh?
Methinks you're full of shit again. ;=)
> They were not powerful enough to pursue this alone so they got
> themselves allied with imperial Russia, Turkey's arch enemy.
>
> Some other Armenians put their luck on the x-tian card vs. the
> "unbelievers" while others similarly to the activities of the Czechs
> of the time tried to find new friends in the West.
>
> I must emphasize the word "some" because the same time
> some Armenians served in government positions (rather high ones
> one might ad) and were never discriminated against, neither did those
> who were lucky enough to stay out of the area of the rebellion.
Well, that's not what an Armenian genocide fact sheet and common sense
tell me:
The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide
and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone."
The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day
Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone."
Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman
Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State Department in 1915:
"Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing
and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses [sic] it appears that a
campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of
reprisal against rebellion."
ref.: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
I understand that, just like with the Jewish holocaust, for political and
other raison d'Etat's, some gross exagerations might have slipped in, but
just 'caz "only 1.4 million (or maybe even less) died at Aschwitz instead
of 4 million" or,
[Hans Mommsen] belongs to a group of scholars sometimes labelled
`structuralists' or `functionalists', who generally try to play down the
role of Hitler, the individual, in initiating the Holocaust, even
describing him as a `weak dictator' content for crucial initiatives to be
taken by others. The Holocaust in their view was not the result of some
pre-formulated plan, but rather it emerged from a series of ad hoc
decisions, many of them made at lower levels of administration, and
largely conditioned by unforeseen circumstances.
ref.: http://findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n9_v48/21104449/print.jhtml
the fact that many innocent people died still remains a fact just as a
fact remains too, that, "weak dictator" or not, w/o papa Adolf there'd
have been a lot lower body count in Europe.
Unfortunately, just as with the current Jewish and German persecution
machinery that would arrest anyone non-Jewish for making the slightest
comments about the "official" Holocaust line, with the current Turkish
machinery in place, I doubt that anyone can get to the bottom of the
Armenian thing. :(
> Nice theory, it is too bad, that it never happened.
> At least not in Turkey.
Yeah, yeah, they had to put down a "rebellion" of old men, women &
children, just as the Eisatzgruppen had to put down Bolshevik old men,
women & children. ;-)
>>that's what happened with the East-Indian minority in various central
>>African states,
>
> It is close(r) but no cigar.
Maybe then you'd elinghten us with your "cigar." ;-)
>>the Tutsi minority in Rwanda,
>
> Not at all.
> T. and H. are not ethnic categories but economical.
> H. became T. when they loose their financial means,
> and some T. might became H. when they save up enough.
> It did happen rather frequently.
> I admit to my ignorance,
> I forgit which is which, but this is how the story goes.
Man , you're so full of shit:
Hutu: a member of a Bantu-speaking people of Rwanda and Burundi
Tutsi: a member of a Nilotic people of Rwanda and Burundi
ref.: http://m-w.com
Even biologicaly, according to the newspaper reports I've read, the Tutsis
are taller and fairer-skinned than the Hutus and are also considered
intellectually superior to them.
>>the Chinese minority of Indonesia & Malaysia, and so on,
>
> This similar to the case of East-Indians in Africa, but money often
> become a mean for exploitation, this has nothing to do with race.
> The Nazis on the other hand persecuted even the poorest Jews in the
> backwoods of Poland as well.
So did the Ottomans, whatmore, right int he "war zone" Constantinople:
Also on that day [April 24, 1915] in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest
Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.
ref.: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
And if you think that "exploitation through money" didn't play any role in
the Jewish holocaust whatsoever
The scale of Germany's Jewish problem is revealed by an unpublished
manuscript by Hitler s predecessor as chancellor, Dr. Heinrich Brüning.
Writing in American exile in 1943 he stated that after the inflation
there was only one major German bank not controlled by Jews, some of them
"utterly corrupt". In 1931 he had brought the banks under government su-
pervision, and had had to keep the government's findings of dishonesty in
the banks secret "for fear of provoking antisemitic riots."
(David Irving, Hitler's War, April 13, 2001 version, p. xxiv)
ref.: http://focal.org/books/hitler/HW1.pdf
and that the actions of the Nazis were completely independent of the
behavior of the Jews, which btw is also a major
Part of a common tendency among Jewish historians of Judaism to ignore,
minimize, or rationalize the role of Jewish behavior in producing
anti-Semitism.
ref.: http://csulb.edu/~kmacd/media_flyer.htm
then you can dream on, pal. ;-)
>>If you think that the British gave up India and the Americans civil rights
>>to the blacks because they were "shamed" into doing it by Messrs. Gandhi &
>>Martin Luther King's "peaceful" protests, respectively, and not 'caz they
>>thought that the Indians were ready to bust their asses and the blacks
>>"burn down downtown LA" in case it need be, then you do so at your peril.
>
> You're right about that.
It's not me who's right about that, but common sense which says that if
one can't back up his demands with brute force if need be, then that one's
toast, baby. ;-)
>>1.) Of course, an "outsmarting" not due to the fact that the Jews or
>>Armenians are "smart people" in general, for they are not,
>
> I think the most Jews are rather smart, (if one is stupid, than he is
> really that), dilligent in what they're doing and not least they have
> a pretty good system in place that they could draw upon would it
> become needed.
Doesn't seem to have helped them much in Auschwitz, though. And they were
indeed "geniuses" to have settled their bloody asses in Palestine, too,
wha' can I say man!! (And by that I don't mean only the "before you buy a
house, search out the neighbours" thing -- if you know how that ol' joke
with the Hungarian n' the Gypsy buying two identical neighbouring houses
together goes, i.e. -- in mind.) ;-)
Add to that the fact that, for example, denying God can get you a one year
stint in an Israeli jail (not to mention their strict marriage rules that
allow only Orthodox rabbis to perform weddings which forbid interfaith
marriage, alas, no civil marriage in Israel please, we are a dummocracy)
and wha' can I say man, they are truly a very intelligent bunch. Their
only luck is that the Americans and Arafat are even more "intelligent"
than 'em. You can ask any secular Jew about these things, too. ;-)
>>only some of them are just _smarter then_ the intellectually 2nd rate
>>Hitler, Stalin & Co.s aching to take away their "jobs", alas, it was easy
>>for Jews to outsmart the uneducated masses of Eastern Europeans kept in
>>feudal servitude conditions by their absolutist masters,
>
> Well, I don't think that many are afraid these days that the Jews take
> away *their jobs*; you know the one from Hofi about the Jewish miners?
I put "jobs" between quotation marks 'caz obviously I wasn't referring to
the low intelligence requiring toiling jobs in the mines or agriculture,
but the ones were you need a lil' bit of brains, like doctors, lawyers,
writers, artists, journalists, scientists, and the likes, which, in any
society are, if not in short, then at least in a very limitted supply, and
which in normal societies usually -- yet even there not always -- go to
1st-rate intellectuals, while in abnormal times (see Stalinism, Fascism,
Nazism, just to name a few) go to the 2n-rate bunch who in normal times
doesn't stand a chance to compete intellectually with the 1st-rate minds,
thus the need to lower the "competition" and turn it into a physical one
(the only one the 2nd-rater can "win"), and for promotion based on the
"knowledge" of the orthodoxy of the day.
And when you look at the "competition" the Jew had to put up with in
Eastern Europe, Germany, France, England & USA, or the Armenian in Turkey,
it's not like he needed to be a genius to outsmart those poor suckers. ;-)
>>the Germans, who, when it comes down to the majority of 'em, aren't but a
>>bunch of "techies" really,
>
> I was always amazed by the "love-hate" relationship that the J. & G.
> have.
Well, it doesn't take much intelligence to be a "bauern" or a "techie", so
of course that the Jew loves 'em. As Peter Ustinov used to say, "Die
letzte Stimme, die man hört, bevor die Welt explodiert, wird die Stimme
eines Experten sein, der sagt: 'Das ist technisch unmöglich!" (The last
words one will hear before the world will blow up will be that of a
"techie" saying 'This is technically impossible!'"). :))
Or as Paul Newman put it in "The Sting", "you can't be a successful con
man in a town were everyone is a con man" or something along that line.
;-)
> I don't think that it has to do with smartness, after all Muslim
> countries were far superior to the West for ca. 1000 yrs.
> Now if you say that the genes of those people all went into recession,
> that is something else.
Depends also on the meaning of what one understands as "superior", for if
one speaks in the terms of the Renaissance's and Enlightenment's rational
humanism, they were not, they were at almost the level they are at now, it
was Europe that was in the Dark Ages, but once the Italian Renaissance set
the works leading to the Enlightenment and then to the industrial
revolution in motion, they were toast. And will be toast if they don't
smarten up. ;-)
>>Hmm, from the way you tried to spin around the Red Deer-Cherry Beach
>>issue, what makes me think that there's barely a faint hope for you to
>>"see" anything? ;-)
>
> I didn't try.
> It was your friend, the big spinner.
> I am not a spinner at all.
> I get my kicks elsewhere.
Bullshit, you claimed that the article tried to imply that the movie was
shot on location in Armenia, when in fact, it did exactly the opposite. If
this is how you "recollect" the matter when the Google/DejaNews record is
pretty clear on that, I wonder about your intellectual honesty in other
matters. :(
>>So then, what's your problem with an Armenian-Canadian like Atom Egoyan
>>trying to make a movie about the Armenian holocaust and various Armenian
>>groups trying to popularize their holocaust before it's airbrushed out
>>from history,
>
> Let us say I am also for the "wie es eigentlich gewesen sei" Leopold
> von Ranke ('s) school.
No you're not, and the "[National Post] article claimed that "Ararat" was
filmed on location in Armenia" affair shows your true colors: those of a
spinner and bullshiter whose word is not worth the paper it's written on.
:(
> If you have further interest for the Armenian-Turkish relations,
> pehaps it would be more beneficial to cross-post to s.c.turkish
> instead of s.c.r.
SCR is homebase, and your s.c.turkish wish hereby fulfilled. ;-)
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs http://come.to/sdancs Voicemail: +1 (416) 933-0394
bv...@ncf.ca Fax: +1 (240) 250-1108
http://www.ncf.ca/~bv561/ http://s.dancs.net
Gustav Horvath
wrote:
>
>The point's not whether you give a shit about it or not, but a possible
>explanation for the current Holocaustomania that "erupted" from about
>1967.
So?
>>>So was the American Indian holocaust preceeding it and the WWII holocausts
>>>of various non-Aryan people (Gypsies, Slavs, to name two) that run
>>>parallel with the Jewish holocaust, or those were based on some other kind
>>>of racial superiority theories, huh? ;-)
>>
>> Racism yes, but not total extermination in any of these
>> cases to my best knowlegde. The Gypsies maybe, but you know who
>> knows this better.
>
>It looks like your "best knowledge" sucks big time, pal.
It looks yours sucks Pistukam, unless you have some supporting
documents, that shows German intent about extermination of *all*
Slavs.
>All of your "quoted elements" were present in the case of all non-Aryans
>whether you like to admit it or not. And when one compares the ca. 1.3
>million Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen to the 1.4 million Jews + others
>(maybe even less) killed at Auschwitz, out goes the holo-causton ("by
>fire") in "the outlook of the whole" (this not to mention the fact that
>the loss of life wasn't by fire, as in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or carpet
>bombed German & Japanese cities, only corpses "died" by fire at the death
>camps.
I know about Morgenthau's plan to make Germany into a so called
"pastoral" society after the war, and am somewhat familiar with the
facts about the terror bombings in Japan and elsewhere, but are you
claiming that it was on a scale that could be matched to "Judenfrei"?
>Methinks you're full of shit again. ;=)
I think your momma is.
I already indicated that I have no further interest to analyse
Armenian propaganda.
You have an understanding problem?
Go play with your twin brother, Wally boy.
I trust you'll get all the answers on s.c.t.
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Dancs) wrote:
> >Methinks you're full of shit again. ;=)
>
> I think your momma is.
>
Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his minor
mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake. Dancs is
trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one more
characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
Nevzat Akdemir
Web Sites as source to his turk-hater claims, and/or
publishing " Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American
ambassador" :-) quotes. A Morgenthau that was the biggest
suck up to his boss at the White House. And a White House
boss who was raising ship at the front lawn to help his
"Christian Armed Forces" against "Halife of Istanbul".
You can believe anything you want, you and Dancs, -that crazy
dingelberry Romanian from Canada- but please, do not try to link
anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
nevzat
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@indirect.com> wrote:
>Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his minor
>mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake. Dancs is
>trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one more
>characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
Insufficient bait.
'you know just before the end of W.W. 2. some German soldiers
were trained to impersonate American GI.-s in order to make confusion
behind American lines.
Besides wearing American uniforms, they were to slouch, ignore "their"
officiers etc. They had a fairly easy job in mingling with the
Americans. According to fame most of the Germans got into trouble when
they had to use slang.
One of these was: bottoms-up!
Quite often they said: up your bottoms.
So Wallykam, bottoms-up!
Gustav
Wally Keeler
Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3B76002A...@bellsouth.net...
> do not try to link
> anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
>
Wally Keeler
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:49:03 -0400, "Wally Keeler"
> <poet...@indirect.com> wrote:
>
> >Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his minor
> >mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake. Dancs is
> >trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one more
> >characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
>
> Insufficient bait.
Flattery again, thank you.
Nevzat Akdemir
You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
hundered years and no kids were killed.
Try to see the other side of the story at times.
Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
rate poet?
nevzat
Wally Keeler
> Wally Keeler wrote:
> > When the shoe fits, tough...
> > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
> > >
> > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his
minor
> > > > mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake.
Dancs is
> > > > trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one
more
> > > > characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
>
>
> You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
> little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
> as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
> hundered years and no kids were killed.
> Try to see the other side of the story at times.
I do see the other side, make an assessment and come to a conlusion. Dig?
> Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I stated
such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best about
it.
> You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> rate poet?
Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
Nevzat Akdemir
>
> Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote...
> > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > When the shoe fits, tough...
> > > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > do not try to link
> > > > anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
> > > >
> > > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > > Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his
> minor
> > > > > mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake.
> Dancs is
> > > > > trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one
> more
> > > > > characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
> >
> >
> > You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
> > little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
> > as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
> > hundered years and no kids were killed.
> > Try to see the other side of the story at times.
>
> I do see the other side, make an assessment and come to a conlusion. Dig?
Dig what? You can't even see tip of your nose! Cut down on the sauce.
>
> > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
>
> Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I stated
> such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best about
> it.
We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
holy water, is it?
>
> > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > rate poet?
>
> Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that stoopid
as well as a third rate poet?
No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
heh.
nevzat
Wally Keeler
> Wally Keeler wrote:
> > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote...
> > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > When the shoe fits, tough...
> > > > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > do not try to link
> > > > > anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
> > > > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > > > Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his
> > minor
> > > > > > mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake.
> > Dancs is
> > > > > > trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just
one
> > more
> > > > > > characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
> > >
> > >
> > > You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
> > > little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
> > > as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
> > > hundered years and no kids were killed.
> > > Try to see the other side of the story at times.
> >
> > I do see the other side, make an assessment and come to a conlusion.
Dig?
>
>
> Dig what? You can't even see tip of your nose! Cut down on the sauce.
What a banality boner!
> > > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
> >
> > Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I
stated
> > such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best
about
> > it.
>
> We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
> did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
> holy water, is it?
Didn't claim it was, however, facts are facts, and I named them as I saw
them.
> > > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > > rate poet?
> >
> > Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
>
> But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that stoopid
> as well as a third rate poet?
> No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
> heh.
Exercising your bland gland again?
Gustav Horvath
<nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>(...)
>(not that Gustav
>did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
>holy water, is it?
Thanks for telling the truth Nevzat.
The old saying is proven again: One who has a Turk for a friend
doesn't need to despair.
Long live Turkish-Magyar solidarity!
Might all our friends go to heaven and might all our enemies go to
hell.
Gustav
Nevzat Akdemir
Wally Keeler wrote:
You don't have to answer it!
>
>
> > > > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
> > >
> > > Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I
> stated
> > > such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best
> about
> > > it.
> >
> > We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
> > did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
> > holy water, is it?
>
> Didn't claim it was, however, facts are facts, and I named them as I saw
> them.
Very convenient, to help your bro. Dancs,
you slash the throat of another Turk or a friend of Turks.
Atypical Western/Christian behavior this is that you can come up
with a statement as stupid as "facts are facts... therefore..."
>
>
> > > > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > > > rate poet?
> > >
> > > Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
> >
> > But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that stoopid
> > as well as a third rate poet?
> > No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
> > heh.
>
> Exercising your bland gland again?
Did you really salivate when you typed this 4th grade junk?
How can you defend Romans on one post and call them (him) a 4th rate
human being on the next?
nevzat
(Btw, if I exercised my bland gland, the result would be someone much more
intelligent than Wally Keeler, after nine months that is.)
Nevzat Akdemir
Long live Turkish-Magyar solidarity!
Hey hey hey!
nevzat
csaba
De csak azert mert te extazisba esel a torokok nevenek puszta
emlitesetol mindenkinek ugye nem kell tapsolni?
Csaba
>
> Gustav
Wea...@hotmail.com
fuck makes ya think we give a shit about stupid fight ?
Fuck off, fags !
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Wally Keeler
> Brotherhood until the end of the time.
>
> Long live Turkish-Magyar solidarity!
I concur.
> Gustav Horvath wrote:
> > Long live Turkish-Magyar solidarity!
Of course. As it should be.
Wally Keeler
> Wally Keeler wrote:
> > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
Of course I don't, mon petite skwirt.
> > > > > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
> > > >
> > > > Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I
> > stated
> > > > such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best
> > about
> > > > it.
> > >
> > > We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
> > > did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
> > > holy water, is it?
> >
> > Didn't claim it was, however, facts are facts, and I named them as I saw
> > them.
>
> Very convenient, to help your bro. Dancs,
> you slash the throat of another Turk or a friend of Turks.
Dancs ain't my bro. Perhaps your ability to assume has diminished to zero.
Who's a Turk? I couldn't care less who is or is not a Turk.
> Atypical Western/Christian behavior this is that you can come up
> with a statement as stupid as "facts are facts... therefore..."
Sure, Yeh. Right. However, if you want to put something between quotation
marks and attribute it to someone, then I suggest you do it accurately.
Since you assert "therefore", prove your case. :-) If not, then zip up your
fly -- you're embarassing yourself.
> > > > > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > > > > rate poet?
> > > >
> > > > Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
> > >
> > > But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that
stoopid
> > > as well as a third rate poet?
> > > No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
> > > heh.
> >
> > Exercising your bland gland again?
>
> Did you really salivate when you typed this 4th grade junk?
Nope.
> How can you defend Romans on one post and call them (him) a 4th rate
> human being on the next?
Where did I defend Romans? Produce the evidence you 4th rate Bland Gland.
> nevzat
> (Btw, if I exercised my bland gland, the result would be someone much more
> intelligent than Wally Keeler, after nine months that is.)
What wit! What creativity! No wonder you run shotgun for Gusty. In your case
it aint bang bang but poof poof.
Nevzat Akdemir
Wally Keeler wrote:
> usual crap. deleted.
Wally Keeler
Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote...