Kosher Wine Questions
John A. Coroy II
Tradition) which addresses the Jewish historical and contemporary religious
use of wine. My particular question concerns kosher wine.
Is all kosher wine a fermented product?
What must happen for a wine to be classified as kosher?
Is there such a thing as kosher grape juice?
Is it under normal conditions allowed in an Orthodox Seder meal as a
substitute for fermented wine?
In my research concerning wine used in offerings, particularly the temple, I
found that the Mishnah states: “They do not bring sweet, or smoked, or
boiled wine. And if one did bring [such kinds of wine], it is invalid.”
Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the pasteurized
juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
Thanks for any help or direction you can give.
John
JC
<6uukaj$541$1...@news.ametro.net>...
> I am writing a manuscript (now titled: Wine, Religion, Culture and
> Tradition) which addresses the Jewish historical and contemporary
religious
> use of wine. My particular question concerns kosher wine.
>
> Is all kosher wine a fermented product?
No. Kosher grape juice has the same status as wine. Maybe that's a bit
too general. But the question is pretty general. You really need to ask
it in the context of usage, as below.
> What must happen for a wine to be classified as kosher?
Primarily it must be made from grapes grown in a kosher vineyard. There
are strict rules of clear biblical origin. The vines must lie dormant (no
harvest) for seven years, if memory serves me. I recall something about
not harvesting from the corners of the fields or the periphery. Not sure
there, as it hasn't been a mitzvah I've had to deal with. But there are a
few details of that nature. Essentially, the wine won't qualify unless the
vineyard is maintained, the grapes picked and the wine made by sabbath and
mitzvah observant Jews.
> Is there such a thing as kosher grape juice?
Yes. You see it in the markets around each major Jewish holiday. It is
the juice of the grapes from the kosher vineyards that is not prepared
(fermented) as wine.
> Is it under normal conditions allowed in an Orthodox Seder meal as a
> substitute for fermented wine?
It is discouraged. It should only be used for children and those who
cannot drink wine for health reasons.
>
> In my research concerning wine used in offerings, particularly the
temple, I
> found that the Mishnah states: “They do not bring sweet, or smoked, or
> boiled wine. And if one did bring [such kinds of wine], it is invalid.”
>
> Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the pasteurized
> juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
Boiled is mevushel wine. Yes, it is the same but it also includes many
wines. Most of the commonly available kosher wines are mevushel, like
Manischevitz. I would suspect, for that reason, most seders use boiled
wine. Boiled wine is really for use when a non-Jew would be in the
position of pouring a cup for a Jew. At the seder, that shouldn't be an
issue, as your cup should be poured by a fellow Jew at the table. But I
haven't heard of a specific prohibition. Never heard of smoked wine. By
sweet wine, the analogy might be to fortified wines, which would be
prohibited.
>
Well, I'm not a rabbinic authority. It would be interesting to hear the
full explanation. I was surprised to find the issues not really covered
much in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. You might also find the recent (latest
issue?) WIne Spectator article on Israeli wines. It does discuss some
ritual issues. I don't have my copy handy; so I can't give you the issue
date. I believe it is the one on the shelves currently.
Harry Weiss
: John A. Coroy II <jco...@datasync.com> wrote in article
: <6uukaj$541$1...@news.ametro.net>...
: > I am writing a manuscript (now titled: Wine, Religion, Culture and
: > Tradition) which addresses the Jewish historical and contemporary
: religious
: > use of wine. My particular question concerns kosher wine.
: >
: > Is all kosher wine a fermented product?
: No. Kosher grape juice has the same status as wine. Maybe that's a bit
: too general. But the question is pretty general. You really need to ask
: it in the context of usage, as below.
: > What must happen for a wine to be classified as kosher?
: Primarily it must be made from grapes grown in a kosher vineyard. There
Actually the laws for kosher wine have much more to do with the winery
than the vineyard. Grapes are bought from any vineyard. (there are
special laws dealing with agriclture, but they most apply only in Israel.)
Hopfully our group expert on this Craig Winchell will post a detailed
response.
: are strict rules of clear biblical origin. The vines must lie dormant (no
--
Chag Sameach
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@netcom.com
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> I am writing a manuscript (now titled: Wine, Religion, Culture and
> Tradition) which addresses the Jewish historical and contemporary religious
> use of wine. My particular question concerns kosher wine.
>
> Is all kosher wine a fermented product?
The question is discussed in the Talmud (Bava Batra 97a-97b YAYIN HA'RAUI).
The question is whether it is required *originally* or ex poste facto and
whether it is preferable. Even for the Temple service, there is a disagreement
(e.g. Tosefta in Menachot 9:12). Regarding the wine for the Passover SEDER,
see the gemara in Pesachim 108b (SHAT'AN CHAI) [CHAI ="new" wine].
According to Jewish law, unfermented wine may be used for kiddush (see
Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAIM Siman 272 (AL EIZA YAYIN MEKADSHIN). The TUR
(Orach Chaim 272) suggests that fermented wine is *preferable*.
[QUESTION FOR CRAIG: what is *moldy* wine [SHMARIM) ??]
> What must happen for a wine to be classified as kosher?
I'll let Craig discuss this.
> Is there such a thing as kosher grape juice?
Yes.
> Is it under normal conditions allowed in an Orthodox Seder meal as a
> substitute for fermented wine?
>
Red wine is preferable.
> In my research concerning wine used in offerings, particularly the temple, I
> found that the Mishnah states: “They do not bring sweet, or smoked, or
> boiled wine. And if one did bring [such kinds of wine], it is invalid.”
>
BOILED WINE: (MEVUSHAL) subject to a large disagreement (see TUR Orach Chaim
272 and Shulchan Aruch YOREH DEAH Siman 123) what is considered boiling
(till it comes to a boil or whether its volume is decreased).
> Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the pasteurized
> juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
>
> Thanks for any help or direction you can give.
>
> John
Josh
>
>
David S. Maddison
In article <01bdeceb$0d4901c0$312d...@jbc.san.rr.com>,
"JC" <jco...@san.rr.com> wrote:
[..]
> > Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the pasteurized
> > juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
>
> Boiled is mevushel wine. Yes, it is the same but it also includes many
> wines. Most of the commonly available kosher wines are mevushel, like
> Manischevitz. I would suspect, for that reason, most seders use boiled
> wine. Boiled wine is really for use when a non-Jew would be in the
> position of pouring a cup for a Jew. At the seder, that shouldn't be an
> issue, as your cup should be poured by a fellow Jew at the table. But I
> haven't heard of a specific prohibition. Never heard of smoked wine. By
> sweet wine, the analogy might be to fortified wines, which would be
> prohibited.
[..]
As I understand it, the requirements for wine that is not rendered treif
by handling by non-Jews relate to the suitability of that wine for use
in idol worship (avodah zarah). If the wine is not suitable for idol
worship and it is kosher in the first place, then it is not rendered
treif by being handled by non-Jews. The reason for this is simply
that in ancient times, idol worship was extremely common among
non-Jews and therefore there is a good chance that the wine could
have been dedicated to idols before being given to Jews.
Wine which was either boiled (mevushal) or had herbs added to it
(mevushin) was not considered suitable for idol worship, therefore
such wine could be drunk by Jews, if originally kosher.
AFAIK, kosher mevushin wine is quite rare, most kosher wine is
mevushal.
As usual, CYLOR if you have any halachic questions.
David Maddison
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
rafael
> [QUESTION FOR CRAIG: what is *moldy* wine [SHMARIM) ??]
I'm not a winemaker like Craig, but I've always read "shmarim" as
"dregs" (as in "bottom of the barrel").
Rafael
John A. Coroy II
David, I have some follow questions on your comments.
When I referred to boiled wine being the same as grape juice my intention
was to convey a pasteurized and thus unfermented juice. Please forgive my
ignorance but is Manischevitz unfermented?
Also does being "mevushel" mean unfermented or just processed by boiling and
what would be the purpose of the boiling? Is it part of the kosher process?
Thanks again,
John
Craig Winchell
John A. Coroy II <jco...@datasync.com> wrote in article
<6uukaj$541$1...@news.ametro.net>...
> I am writing a manuscript (now titled: Wine, Religion, Culture and
> Tradition) which addresses the Jewish historical and contemporary
religious
> use of wine. My particular question concerns kosher wine.
>
> Is all kosher wine a fermented product?
B"H
Halachically, the juice is also considered wine.
> What must happen for a wine to be classified as kosher?
Several things. The grapes must be from vines which have been rooted for
at least 4 years. This is true either within or without Israel's
(biblical) borders. Inside Israel's borders, tithes of the fruit must also
be separated. Then, the wines must be (from the time of intentional
separation of juice from the skins and seeds) handled and manipulated only
by Sabbath Observant Jews, until such time as it is either thermally
processed (mevushal) or bottled and sealed. No non-kosher additives may be
used. In the case of kosher-for-Passover, this is even more strict, and
generally no food or beverage is allowed in and around the winemaking area,
and grain-based additives are prohibited.
> Is there such a thing as kosher grape juice?
Yes.
> Is it under normal conditions allowed in an Orthodox Seder meal as a
> substitute for fermented wine?
The preference is for fermented wine. However, if necessary,
kosher-for-Passover grape juice may be used.
>
> In my research concerning wine used in offerings, particularly the
temple, I
> found that the Mishnah states: “They do not bring sweet, or smoked, or
> boiled wine. And if one did bring [such kinds of wine], it is invalid.”
>
> Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the pasteurized
> juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
Grape Juice is not generally pasteurized to a high enough temperature to
qualify as mevushal (generally, 185 degrees F). However, mevushal grape
juice, of course, is.
Craig Winchell
JC <jco...@san.rr.com> wrote in article
<01bdeceb$0d4901c0$312d...@jbc.san.rr.com>...
> John A. Coroy II <jco...@datasync.com> wrote in article
> <6uukaj$541$1...@news.ametro.net>...
> > I am writing a manuscript (now titled: Wine, Religion, Culture and
> > Tradition) which addresses the Jewish historical and contemporary
> religious
> > use of wine. My particular question concerns kosher wine.
> >
> > Is all kosher wine a fermented product?
>
> No. Kosher grape juice has the same status as wine. Maybe that's a bit
> too general. But the question is pretty general. You really need to ask
> it in the context of usage, as below.
>
> > What must happen for a wine to be classified as kosher?
>
> Primarily it must be made from grapes grown in a kosher vineyard.
B"H
Incorrect!! The vineyard, except for its age, has nothing to do with it.
There
> are strict rules of clear biblical origin. The vines must lie dormant
(no
> harvest) for seven years, if memory serves me.
3rd year is Orlah year. 4th can be eaten or used.
I recall something about
> not harvesting from the corners of the fields or the periphery. Not sure
> there, as it hasn't been a mitzvah I've had to deal with. But there are
a
> few details of that nature. Essentially, the wine won't qualify unless
the
> vineyard is maintained, the grapes picked and the wine made by sabbath
and
> mitzvah observant Jews.
Picking can be by anyone, as can maintenance of the vineyard.
>
> > Is there such a thing as kosher grape juice?
>
> Yes. You see it in the markets around each major Jewish holiday. It is
> the juice of the grapes from the kosher vineyards that is not prepared
> (fermented) as wine.
>
> > Is it under normal conditions allowed in an Orthodox Seder meal as a
> > substitute for fermented wine?
>
> It is discouraged. It should only be used for children and those who
> cannot drink wine for health reasons.
> >
> > In my research concerning wine used in offerings, particularly the
> temple, I
> > found that the Mishnah states: “They do not bring sweet, or smoked, or
> > boiled wine. And if one did bring [such kinds of wine], it is invalid.”
> >
> > Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the
pasteurized
> > juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
>
> Boiled is mevushel wine. Yes, it is the same but it also includes many
> wines. Most of the commonly available kosher wines are mevushel, like
> Manischevitz. I would suspect, for that reason, most seders use boiled
> wine. Boiled wine is really for use when a non-Jew would be in the
> position of pouring a cup for a Jew. At the seder, that shouldn't be an
> issue, as your cup should be poured by a fellow Jew at the table. But I
> haven't heard of a specific prohibition. Never heard of smoked wine. By
> sweet wine, the analogy might be to fortified wines, which would be
> prohibited.
Fortified wines are not prohibited, as long as the brandy is kosher.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
JC
Sept (current one). Nice article on Israeli wines there. I think Mondavi
is on the cover.
Anonymous
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosher Wine Questions
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 10:54:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
In article <01bdeceb$0d4901c0$312d...@jbc.san.rr.com>,
"JC" <jco...@san.rr.com> wrote:
[..]
> > Would the boiled wine of yesterday be treated the same as the
pasteurized
> > juice of today (which is what grape juices is)?
>
> Boiled is mevushel wine. Yes, it is the same but it also includes many
> wines. Most of the commonly available kosher wines are mevushel, like
> Manischevitz. I would suspect, for that reason, most seders use boiled
> wine. Boiled wine is really for use when a non-Jew would be in the
> position of pouring a cup for a Jew. At the seder, that shouldn't be an
> issue, as your cup should be poured by a fellow Jew at the table. But I
> haven't heard of a specific prohibition. Never heard of smoked wine. By
> sweet wine, the analogy might be to fortified wines, which would be
> prohibited.
[..]
As I understand it, the requirements for wine that is not rendered treif
by handling by non-Jews relate to the suitability of that wine for use
in idol worship (avodah zarah). If the wine is not suitable for idol
worship and it is kosher in the first place, then it is not rendered
treif by being handled by non-Jews. The reason for this is simply
that in ancient times, idol worship was extremely common among
non-Jews and therefore there is a good chance that the wine could
have been dedicated to idols before being given to Jews.
Wine which was either boiled (mevushal) or had herbs added to it
(mevushin) was not considered suitable for idol worship, therefore
such wine could be drunk by Jews, if originally kosher.
AFAIK, kosher mevushin wine is quite rare, most kosher wine is
mevushal.
As usual, CYLOR if you have any halachic questions.
David Maddison
=============================================
What is wrong with a Gentile pouring wine for you? Are you some sort of a
bigoted bastard?
John A. Coroy II
process is it done? Boiling the juice would kill the yeast and prevent it
from fermenting so is this boiling the wine?
John
Anonymous wrote in message <1998100517...@www.ecn.org>...
John A. Coroy II
such as scotch, vodka and beer.
I'm sorry to see that there is any hint of religious prejudice interjected
into this discussion. I am simply seeking knowledge about the Jewish
treatment of wine so any other comments are off topic and unwelcome. There
are always those hate-mongers who seek to divide.
Shalom
John
David S. Maddison
In article <1998100517...@www.ecn.org>,
If the Gentile was a moron like you, I'd have a real problem with it.
But didn't you _read_ what I wrote above?
I wouldn't normally bother replying to an anonymous poster but this
nasty little anti-Semite is terribly confused.
As I explained in my post, the specific requirement for kosher wine
is an assurance that it has not or cannot be dedicated to the purpose
of idol worship. Idol worship, or even the apperance of it is an
extremely strict prohibition in Judaism. Since WINE was commonly
used in the service of idols, there are special prohibitions
dealing with it. Of course idol worship might seem rare now,
but as I mentioned, in ancient times it was very common. Also,
Jewish Law is not easily changed so these ancient prohibitions
still apply, and will continue to do so.
Note also, that wine is the only alcoholic beverage to which
these prohibitions apply, other alcohol such as scotch, vodka and
beer is OK, as long as they contain kosher ingredients which
they usually do.
Also, modern kosher wine is almost exclusively mevushal which
means that the aforesaid prohibitions do not apply and have
no practical consequence.
Of course, no matter what facts one might inject into the
story, it won't stop ignorant anti-Semites like the above
reposting his interpretations in groups like alt.revisionism etc..