Bondar says!!
Peter Bondar
the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
there are actually quite a few options, it would be inappropriate for me to
disclose all of my thoughts past,present,future
for legal reasons and also for commercial reasons, however may I suggest a
few discussion points to solicit feedback
and promote a crystalisation of some of the current ideas.
Here is my non exhaustive list of things to do..and as usual the best ones
are still to come.........
1) Persuade a rich 'sugar daddy' that the Acorn product business is worth
picking up, and make it into a brand new
company with no ties to current Acorn management/shareholders.
2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business from
Acorn and create a new limited company.
3)Reverse engineer some of the key bits with redundant staff and form an
'oem' situation or pattern part business.
4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
I have a number of ideas and potential contributions to make, however I
believe time is of the essence and any actions have
to be made soon and decisively, this is not the time and place for pissing
around in the middle ground.
Anyone with positive concrete suggestions/contributions is welcomed to mail
me or this group sooner rather than later.
Remember this is a warm body potentially fatally wounded, its going to need
a major shock to get this body restarted!
Like any other poentially dead body the longer you leave it the greater the
difficulty of ressuciation.
I especially welcome views from dealers/isvs and people with money!!,
however the great unwashed are required to give some
realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
Speaking personally (and I'm unfortunately limited at this stage in what I
can say for legal reasons) I think the last few days
are a tragedy for all the people/companies/customers involved. I think
those of you who really knew me would know that
this is not what I would have wanted for Acorn in any form, with or without
me.
From a personal perspective it was kind of ironic that my first day of
discussing what I should do from a career
perspective coincided with Acorn's sad news.
As some of you may have known I have spent the last 3 months building my new
plane, (http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr012.htm)
however now is the time to get back into business, the question for me is,
should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
pastures.
I await yours comments!-:)
mail me at : pbo...@avnet.co.uk
peter--
Peter Bondar
"so many toys, so little time"
James Stevens
Peter Bondar wrote:
[snip]
Your name is a welcome sight in this group! I sure we are all glad to know that
you still have an interest in the Acorn Scene.
If you really think that you can make an impact anywhere I'm sure everyone will
agree with me that you could possibly save the RISC OS scene.
--
Visit the James Stevens Website | I use An Acorn RISC PC.
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/jamess/ | 200 Mhz StrongARM Processor.
Includes Movie/Music Reviews, Software, | P133 Co-Processor running Win95
Playstation Cheats, FFVII Guide, Voyager | 2.5Gb HD, 48Mb DRAM, 2Mb VRAM.
Episode Guide, Phoebe 2100 Info and more. | Acorn@Heart, ZFC Ar, Jaz on IRC
Nigel Parker
: 1) Persuade a rich 'sugar daddy' that the Acorn product business is worth
: picking up, and make it into a brand new
: company with no ties to current Acorn management/shareholders.
How about a 'sugar grand-daddy'? Wouldn't Herman Hausser be interested in
rekindling those founding Acorn feelings again? Always struck me as a bit
of a risk-taker...
: 2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business from
: Acorn and create a new limited company.
Not as good as finding someone with buckets of cash and burning pockets,
but this would seem a good solution. Lots of developers have invested
lots of time and money in Phoebe (particularly the h/ware developers). I
know there is lots of interest (and indeed plans afoot) to make this sort
of venture happen.
: 3)Reverse engineer some of the key bits with redundant staff and form an
: 'oem' situation or pattern part business.
Wouldn't this be difficult to achieve without copying the Acorn design (or
be open to accusations of copying)? This would also take much longer than
the first two options - how many users will stick with it for the time
this will take (a year)?
: 4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
Nothing worthwhile is easy. (And it is very worthwhile).
: I have a number of ideas and potential contributions to make, however I
: believe time is of the essence and any actions have
: to be made soon and decisively, this is not the time and place for pissing
: around in the middle ground.
Couldn't agree more. There have been lots of suggestions knocking around
on these groups for the last two days - and they seem like excellent ideas
for the future (depending on what happens here), but we would still need
Phoebe in the meantime. Preferrably followed by Phoebe 2, 3, 4, etc.
My concern is that we need to expand the user base to make this feasible
as a long-term venture. I'm sure there's enough demand to obtain the
rights for Phoebe from Acorn and to produce it, but what of the future.
If this is to be more than a "single production run" company, wound up
after making a few thousand Phoebes, then it will need to be sold to new
markets and mac/unix/wintel users (something Acorn could never do).
I know this is slightly unrelated to saving Phoebe, but there is lots of
talk of getting the RiscOS GUI onto unix (with simple porting of existing
apps). Several people have said that Acorn and some third parties have
looked into this. Peter, what are your thoughts on this, and was it ever
tried at Acorn?
Let's just hope we don't have to resort to that. An ARM RiscOS machine
would be much nicer!
Nice to hear from you Peter, and I hope you consider returning to Friends
(pun intended).
Cheers.
Nigel
--
Girton College, Cambridge, England, CB3 0JG. Tel: 0411 384803
http://welcome.to/nigels nigel....@iee.org
Mr. P. Downs
Peter! We need you! Come back.
--
Rob Hemmings
<pbo...@avnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow
> upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
>
> I especially welcome views from dealers/isvs and people with money!!,
> however the great unwashed are required to give some
> realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
Does that mean me? (Surely not, I've had several washes already this year.)
Anyway, to answer the serious question.
I intend to continue using Risc OS hardware and software as long as it
remains possible to do so. If that means I have to stick with my existing
Risc PC & A410 (much upgraded) then I will probably buy another Risc PC for
backup and as much advanced software as possible while it is available. I
hope the software will continue to be developed but even if it does not then
what is available now covers most (if not all) of what I actually *need*.
Given my realistic needs this should last me for many years to come.
I'm really not interested in moving to any other platform (at home) in the
foreseeable future. I've been working in the computer industry for around
26 years and have never had as much *fun* with any computer as I have with
ones from Acorn (and I've used/do use a very wide range).
However, I would be very much happier to see a future upgrade path and would
certainly buy a new Risc OS machine that made a real move forward in
technology. (I was just coming round to thinking that the Risc PC II was
indeed attractive even though I don't really need that extra power yet - the
recent extra discount made it too good an opportunity to turn down.)
In summary I don't care who makes the machine but I do want to stay with
Risc OS as a platform and will happily buy future computers from anyone to
achieve that.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Hemmings Southport
Tel: +44 (0)1704 573210 ro...@argonet.co.uk
Andy McMullon
It's 'The Man' - at last!
Peter - if you've any sense stay well away from this scene and enjoy
your retirement!
But if you still want to make funky computers I know a few people who
want to buy them!
Mind you - you'll never be rich .............
Whatever it takes!
--
Andy: skyp...@bigfoot.com / http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk
Dave Cooper
> <parts snipped>
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow
> upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
>
> believe time is of the essence and any actions have
> to be made soon and decisively, this is not the time and place for pissing
> around in the middle ground.
>
quiet) go onto new pastures.
>
> I await yours comments!-:)
>
> mail me at : pbo...@avnet.co.uk
>
> peter--
> Peter Bondar
You are most definately needed. If people with real money are to support
such a venture then they will want a proven 'leader' to head the team. If
you could get Chris Cox, Dave Walker and perhaps Stuart Brodie then you have
a 'Dream Team' ready to go. (Apologies to any other people in the
Workstation division who I have not named - all I'm sure would give even
greater strength to such a team.)
I would hope any other groups thinking of a bid would be best getting behind
such a team to give to project it's best chance.
Regards and best wishes, Dave C.
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ ______________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / StrongArm Risc Pc (586 PcCard) Clan & MAUG.
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | / ArgoRing.AcornRing.Interests-Comp.Sat.AV.SF
___________________________/ Classical music & Wine. d...@argonet.co.uk
Homepage (inc.free photos) http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dac/index.html
Tim Dawson
As you have requested the views of the "great unwashed" (I was the quiet one at
the back of the theatre) here's my 2d worth. We'll skip the "thunderstruck/sad"
bits as that's all been done.
Lets look at what have (putting aside who owns what ATM)....
a) an excellent, intuitive OS that is ripe for development and the main asset to
attract users to the platform
b) a modest range of software that fulfills most requirements but need expanding
to attract new users
c) in PhRPC a good but not outstanding hardware spec that would have patched for
a year or so
d) a group of loyal, innovative and productive developers
e) a modest sized loyal user base
Where do we want to go (today ;-)? Well there are a few options here.
a) stay a small home/enthusiast market - not viable IMHO
b) specialize in innovative powerful/hardware to appeal to the niche power user
eg graphics, video etc (would need appropriate s/w as well)
c) slowly modify the OS to move out into other areas like Linux (I'm no expert
on this but it has been mooted elsewhere and seems a good idea) to capture
users.
These are of course not mutually exclusive and an innovative power machine would
also appeal to the enthusiast etc... The bottom line is though that to remain a
viable platform (for a company) the user base must expand and the opportunity
MUST be taken at this juncture to plan how that is to be done or we will end up
in the same state of affairs.
How do we do it?
The difficult bit and here I'm way outa my depth. Access to the OS appears to be
central to any progess and I know nothing of the intricacies business-wise this
would involve. It gotta be reasonable (ie cheap) though, along with the
permission to develop it. From what I have read... much of the hardware can be
off-the-peg which has to be the way to go. A (resurrected?) company should
concentrate on OS developments and coordinating s/w development with minimal h/w
commitment and use dealers to put packages together.
Acorn has sullied the Phoebe with its action and I don't think that it would be
well received in its current form. Any new company should profess tenuous
links with Acorn now and start with a newly badged machine.
> 1) Persuade a rich 'sugar daddy' that the Acorn product business is worth
> picking up, and make it into a brand new
> company with no ties to current Acorn management/shareholders.
Unlikely but worth a try... given aformentioned caveats
> 2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business from
> Acorn and create a new limited company.
More likely but probably undercapitalized. Plenty of committment though,
likely to be more innovative and familiar with the platform. I for one would be
prepared to put my Phoebe deposit in as shares into what is an essentially a
high risk company. Though I am fortunate to have a relatively secure well paid
job and recogise that other members of the user base, though willing, might not
be able to do so.
> 3)Reverse engineer some of the key bits with redundant staff and form an
> 'oem' situation or pattern part business.
Don't understand this, it would still need to be as a separate company though as
2).
> 4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
Fishing... eh. There is of course no way anyone is going to get close to Billy
but the tide a disaffection does appear to be growing and the bubble may yet
burst. It'd be nice to still have RISCOS to catch some of the fall out.
> Remember this is a warm body potentially fatally wounded, its going to need
> a major shock to get this body restarted!
Yeh.. well I hope you won't be needing my professional services (see sig) ;-)
> "pissing around in the middle ground" - from another posting
Yes I agree the rescue attempt needs to be expedited and *concerted* and you are
JUST the man for the job... feel like a challenge???
One more thing... Acorn's weaknesses have ALWAYS been marketing and to an
extent, communication with the userbase (yes there are probably others but not
under PBs regime). These need serious consideration.
> I await yours comments!-:)
Done!
...but I'd like my 8 month old daughter (Kestra) to have the opportunity to use
a decent computer so I hope you can pull it off... All the best.
--
~~~~Dr Tim Dawson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neuropathology Section, UHW, Cardiff, Wales, CF4 4XN, UK
Daws...@Cardiff.ac.uk or daws...@darwin.u-net.com
"Using StrongArm powered, user friendly Acorn technology"
Nigel Parker
How to expand the user base is the question which needs answering. If
Acorn couldn't make it work then it must be because the user base can't
support it. Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing). It
should also come with a unix variant as a standard option (ie preinstalled
on a 2nd HD if wanted), so they'll feel more comfortable buying a strange
computer.
How can we tempt users away from other platforms? How do we persuade them
to buy RiscOS rather than Mac/BeOS/unix when they ditch Windows? How will
any new company support Paul Vigay in his unofficial marketing role? ;-)
There are probably tens of thousands of people out there, right now,
crying in front of a Windows machine doing the umpteenth reboot of the
day. Any business plan should consider how to get these peoples attention
as much as how to raise the capital for a Phoebe buyout/production.
Sorry to go on, but I just don't want to buy into a short-lived dream. We
need to look beyond making a few thousand Phoebes (although I'll take one
whatever happens) ;-)
Anyway, I hope Peter takes up the challenge. We couldn't be in better
hands!
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
<snip>
Primis: Welcome back. Secundus: Ad Astra? 8)
There are lots of ideas floating around at the moment, waiting to connect.
The most promising developments so far has (AFAIK) taken place among those
companies who have worked towards forming a loose and synergical
"graphics consortium" with basis in Acorn/RISC OS technology; Astute
Graphics, Alternative Publishing, Beebug (i.e. David Pilling), Electronic
Font Foundry, Spacetech and Sincronia, most significantly. Should also
mention EIDOS, who have reasons for their own in wishing for a more
powerful box than the RPC1 and even RPC2, as it turned out - relatively
spec-ribbed compared to the hopes conjured by the first wild-eyed
conjectures - and Forbidden Technologies (how I love that name!) could
see to the hardware end of matters.
The question is how "we" should position ourselves to what is left of Acorn
proper. Although the new CEO has done a remarkable job at alienating BOTH
the users AND the developer community, I've a hard time understanding how he
can expect selling "blank" NC/STB solutions to anyone without being able to
point to someone who can produce custom contents for online/NC-subscribers
to subscribe to at the same time. That's where "we" enter the picture -
potentially. But it will take a *lot* of convincing noises and *written*
guarantees from Acorn to entice enough competent persons into supporting
and working for the project. A LOT. Twice burned, twice shy - and developers
has been literally *fried* by Acorn by now.
--
Regards,
Sveinung W. Tengelsen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
mailto:pixe...@sn.no | I have one illusion;
http://www.sn.no/~pixeleye/Index.htm | I have no illusions.
Dave Mullard
Peter Bondar <pbo...@avnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
It's Peter - heart leaps for joy. Seriously though - glad you are with us
in our hour of need.
> 1) Persuade a rich 'sugar daddy' that the Acorn product business is worth
> picking up, and make it into a brand new
> company with no ties to current Acorn management/shareholders.
Finding one is the problem and then, even if we can, will he/she give us
the freedom to take RiscOS and the hardware where we want it? How many
with money would appreciate what they would be buying.
Still on speaking terms with Larry are you?
> 2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business
> from Acorn and create a new limited company.
This is the best one but the toughest to get off the ground in the time
available. Needs someone with credibility to do the leg work round all of
the dealers and developers. There are a lot of us - unwashed - willing to
buy shares in such a company but even then I doubt we could raise enough.
We could borrow but that is a dangerous way to go. I would guess a minimum
of 5 million is needed, and with the high risks associated with it, it
will be hard to get real money.
I have held Acorn shares since 1987 and never seen a dividend so I know
how to waste money but most people won't. I had faith which is what Acorn
have lost. I have seen the share price vary between 6p and 300p but the
current shareholders are the wrong breed.
> 3)Reverse engineer some of the key bits with redundant staff and form an
> 'oem' situation or pattern part business.
The best last resort option. You must be the best person to judge this
one. Ok for moving RiscOS on but what about the hardware. That needs
capital.
> 4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
Ignored.
> I have a number of ideas and potential contributions to make, however I
> believe time is of the essence and any actions have
> to be made soon and decisively, this is not the time and place for pissing
> around in the middle ground.
The first action is making contact with Acorn to find out what type of
deal they might make so that we can know what we can get out of them and
at what price. What in reality does buying the workstation division
consist of? Will they speak to you?
> Snip
I wish that in your ART days you had given RiscOS more resources but it's
too late now.
Stay warm Peter.
--
Dave Mullard <dmul...@argonet.co.uk>
Stephen Crocker
"Peter Bondar" <pbo...@avnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
Onwards, I hope!
> there are actually quite a few options, it would be inappropriate for me to
> disclose all of my thoughts past,present,future
> for legal reasons and also for commercial reasons, however may I suggest a
> few discussion points to solicit feedback
> and promote a crystalisation of some of the current ideas.
>
> Here is my non exhaustive list of things to do..and as usual the best ones
> are still to come.........
>
>
> 1) Persuade a rich 'sugar daddy' that the Acorn product business is worth
> picking up, and make it into a brand new
> company with no ties to current Acorn management/shareholders.
Hmmm... A company like Eidos, perhaps? I think several companies would
benefit from Phoebe, but the problem is rying to convince them of that!
> 2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business from
> Acorn and create a new limited company.
I gather that two companies are planning to buy Acorn Workstations.
> 3)Reverse engineer some of the key bits with redundant staff and form an
> 'oem' situation or pattern part business.
Hmmm... Doesn't sound easy.
> 4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
However did we win the war?
> I have a number of ideas and potential contributions to make, however I
> believe time is of the essence and any actions have
> to be made soon and decisively, this is not the time and place for pissing
> around in the middle ground.
I agree! Ideally, I would like to see some company producing Phoebe (or
whatever they want to call it) by the end if this year. However, that
sounds unlikely but I still tink someone should get a move on!
> Anyone with positive concrete suggestions/contributions is welcomed to mail
> me or this group sooner rather than later.
I think that another company should use Acorn's plans to build the
RiscPC2. I have no idea how much this would cost, but I'm sure that
Aorn would rather sell the plans for less than £2 million or whatever it
was than throw them in the dustbin! How much would they charge for the
use of A7000 motherboards in Peanut/Medi?
> Remember this is a warm body potentially fatally wounded, its going to need
> a major shock to get this body restarted!
Given that a computer which has just been made to work properly appears
to be going down the plughole, I'm sure that someone will step in and
help.
> Like any other poentially dead body the longer you leave it the greater the
> difficulty of ressuciation.
Good point.
> I especially welcome views from dealers/isvs and people with money!!,
> however the great unwashed are required to give some
> realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
I think Eidos is the best chance of saving the RiscOS platform. Then
there are other companies such as R-Comp and Aleph 1 who are developing
hardware specifically for Phoebe and may not be able to offer much
money, but should certainly be willing to support the development.
> Speaking personally (and I'm unfortunately limited at this stage in what I
> can say for legal reasons) I think the last few days
> are a tragedy for all the people/companies/customers involved. I think
> those of you who really knew me would know that
> this is not what I would have wanted for Acorn in any form, with or without
> me.
Anyone who knows how brilliant RiscOS is would not want this to happen.
Ideas such as the Filer allowing applications (ie. runnable directories
so that the hard disc looks less cluttered), 3 mouse buttons, OS in ROM,
no bloatware etc. should not just be abandoned!
> From a personal perspective it was kind of ironic that my first day of
> discussing what I should do from a career
> perspective coincided with Acorn's sad news.
Well, at last you didn't get tied doen to something which would take you
away from the Acorn scene.
> As some of you may have known I have spent the last 3 months building my new
> plane, (http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr012.htm)
> however now is the time to get back into business, the question for me is,
> should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
> originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
> pastures.
We need all the support we can get, especially from someone who has had
a high position at Acorn.
--
x^ ( ) _________ // Email: mailto:cr...@crok.demon.co.uk
< U O |_|_|_|_|_| O || WWW: http://www.crok.demon.co.uk
\, |/|\ _________ [ ]
. |/^\ . 2 . /__\
... If flies couldn't fly, would they be called walks?
Andy Carter
Rob Hemmings <rhem...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> In summary I don't care who makes the machine but I do want to stay with
> Risc OS as a platform and will happily buy future computers from anyone
> to achieve that.
Sounds good to me.
Nice to know you're listening, Peter.
Andy
--
fr...@argonet.co.uk - http://www.argonet.co.uk/homepages/fruit/
for accessing Argo using PAP/CHAP authorisation
All contributions to my 'phone bill welcome.
Andrew P. Harmsworth Esq.
> need a major shock to get this body restarted!
OK, Peter - I volunteer to perform CPR on Phoebe! Seriously, though - it is
good to see our 'Knight in shining AMRour' valiantly returning from the
crusades. I hope the other Knights soon join you at a Round Table to save
Camelot (did you /really/ say that the National Lottery use tweaked RiscPCs
for their numbers machines?).
Poetry from a physicist? Sorry...
APH
--
Science Coursework http://start.at/scirep * Warwick School * * *
Warwick School http://welcome.to/warwick * WARWICK * Physics Dept
Solar System http://travel.to/theplanets * CV34 6PP, UK * 01926 776464
* * * * * * my own views * * * a...@warwick.warwks.sch.uk * * * *
Chris Parker
> 2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business from
> Acorn and create a new limited company.
This sounds like the best option - how much would this cost?
Aircraft finished?
--
Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------------
mailto:Chris...@CSi.com http://www.hangout.demon.co.uk/
Stuart Bell
> Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
> made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
> thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing). It
> should also come with a unix variant as a standard option (ie preinstalled
> on a 2nd HD if wanted), so they'll feel more comfortable buying a strange
> computer.
As far as the 'public' market is concerned, the three questions are:
1. Price,
2. Perceived speed running W95/98
3. Ragne of games (and perhaps other s/w) bundled with the machine.
--
Stuart Bell
writing from a Wintel-free zone.
Kell Gatherer
<snip>
>1) Persuade a rich 'sugar daddy' that the Acorn product business is worth
>picking up, and make it into a brand new company with no ties to current
>Acorn management/shareholders.
Rather like winning the lottery I would have thought, however if you know
one, get on the phone immediately.
>2)Form a consortioum of interested parties to buy the product business from
>Acorn and create a new limited company.
I'm interested. I've called a board meeting for this afternoon (Saturday) to
see how much we could put up. Will report...
>3)Reverse engineer some of the key bits with redundant staff and form an
>'oem' situation or pattern part business.
>
>4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
He hasn't won yet.
>I especially welcome views from dealers/isvs and people with money!!,
>however the great unwashed are required to give some
>realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
My business is committed to using Acorns for the foreseeable future. We're
opening up a second office and wanting to install a new network there.
Having committed considerable resources to creating our system on Acorns,
we're not about to jump ship without very good reason.
>From a personal perspective it was kind of ironic that my first day of
>discussing what I should do from a career perspective coincided with
>Acorn's sad news.
It's called fate, or synchronisity, or karma, what you will. You may call it
ironic, but to me it's about the most hopeful sign I can see twinkling in
this darkness.
>As some of you may have known I have spent the last 3 months building my
>new
>plane, (http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr012.htm)
>however now is the time to get back into business, the question for me is,
>should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
>originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
>pastures.
Are there such things as "brownie points in heaven"?
Please give us another go.
At the least you'll make lots and lots of friends, and, I suspect, a bob or
two as well. How much is aviation fuel these days?
You have my backing, for the moment in spirit only, but I'll be in touch.
--
Kell Gatherer
ke...@locationworks.com
www.locationworks.com
Jeremy A.Smith
<6tugmj$94o$1...@supernews.com>...
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow
upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
>
ones
> are still to come.........
>
> 'oem' situation or pattern part business.
I can reverse-engineer anything you can chuck at me - Fast, too. What kind
of things were you thinking of reversing?
> 4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
Windows CE vs the Psion Series 5 shows that this is not the case [WinCE has
sold about 500,000 for all the WinCE machines in existence - the Series 5
has sold 500,000, full stop] - If Psion can win, there's hope for the
British computer industry.
Jeremy.
--
Replace 'X' in e-mail with 'J' if you wish to e-mail me
Paul Vigay
Tim Dawson <daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
> One more thing... Acorn's weaknesses have ALWAYS been marketing and to an
> extent, communication with the userbase (yes there are probably others but
> not
> under PBs regime). These need serious consideration.
I think any new venture would need some really enthusiastic marketing and
dynamic ideas to inspire the public. The media is bored by mundane
'business' type stuff. You need a marketing dept that can pull off some
hair-raising stunts and get Acorn (or whatever the new venture is called)
mentioned in the news in an indirect way.
Note Richard Branson gets more publicity for Virgin by doing dare-devil
stunts in balloons etc than appearing for press conferences etc. Perhaps we
need an Acorn balloon or some other 'English eccentric' scheme to get
publicity etc.
Don't forget that the millennium is coming up and as Risc OS is unaffected
by the problem you could tie in publicity there and harness the big
negativity in the rest of the computer industry. How about someone
abseiling down the millennium tower with an Acorn sweatshirt or something,
getting all the TV cameras there and making sure some catchy 'millennium
proof' catchphrase gets mentioned. You need street-cred, 'cool publicity'
etc. Donate a new machine to 'All Saints' or something to compose a new
record on, then invite them along to some 'bash' somewhere. Get people
thinking about the machine. New Look, new style etc.
Look where Dyson has come (I think someone else mentioned him). A few years
ago, no such thing, now having a Dyson is cool and trendy (if you're into
home cleaning....), but you catch my drift. You need to turn it into some
kind of English eccentric success story. I'm sure Richard Branson could
pull off anything and get positive publicity for it.
regards,
Paul
P.S. I'd volunteer to be marketing director.... :-)
--
Paul Vigay Acorn Programming,
__\\|//__ Internet Consultancy
http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') & Web Design
-----------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
For Acorn Shareware, go to page above and follow link to Acorn Shareware.
Remove ".vogonpoetry" to reply by email.
Paul Vigay
Dave Mullard <dmul...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Stay warm Peter.
Don't encourage him to buy a Pentium machine....
--
Paul Vigay Acorn Programming,
__\\|//__ Internet Consultancy
http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') & Web Design
-----------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
Windows Multitasking - crashing several things at once
david...@my-dejanews.com
>
> How to expand the user base is the question which needs answering. If
> Acorn couldn't make it work then it must be because the user base can't
> made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
> thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing). It
> should also come with a unix variant as a standard option (ie preinstalled
> on a 2nd HD if wanted), so they'll feel more comfortable buying a strange
> computer.
> How can we tempt users away from other platforms? How do we persuade them
> to buy RiscOS rather than Mac/BeOS/unix when they ditch Windows? How will
> any new company support Paul Vigay in his unofficial marketing role? ;-)
As someone who has made a fairly complete switch away from Acorns to
Wintel machines over the last couple of years, I'm using them because they
do the stuff that I want. I'm yet to see a development environment to touch
Visual Studio - yeah, so it needs a couple of hundred MB of disc space and
plenty of RAM, but going back to StrongEd (never did get used to Zap) and
Acorn C 5 does seem a bit like a timewarp back into the 1980s. PCB CAD
on Acorns? Telephony tools on Acorns? 'Decent' (heavyweight) database
apps on Acorns? Incoming? Quake II? Can't find them. But anyway..
I think the "..when they ditch Windows" above is where you (that's the Acorn
mafia/clique/clan/whatever) get things wrong. Most people aren't looking to
ditch Windows - yes, it may be inefficient (in that it runs slower on my
486/33 than RISC OS on my A5000) and big (40MB instead of 4) but both of
these are irrelevant on today's hardware. And, in my experience, it fails to
crash anywhere near as much as some would make out and, in its NT variant, is
pretty robust. And, if I want to buy a scanner/printer/sound card/internal
ISDN TA/device programmer/3D video card/whatever, the question isn't "does
anyone make one" or "which one's David Pilling written drivers for" but
"which one do I want?" There's a load of advantage from being mainstream,
and you need to give people a hell of a good reason to move out of it.
> There are probably tens of thousands of people out there, right now,
> crying in front of a Windows machine doing the umpteenth reboot of the
> day. Any business plan should consider how to get these peoples attention
> as much as how to raise the capital for a Phoebe buyout/production.
That's easy. Think of a killer app. Write it for Phoebe. Sell a unique
solution. As it happens, I've got a killer app* on the go at the moment, but
it really needs an internal ISDN TA to be usable. And it helps if it can be
provided on a platform which is perceived to be stable and suitable for
server-type products.
> Sorry to go on, but I just don't want to buy into a short-lived dream. We
> need to look beyond making a few thousand Phoebes (although I'll take one
> whatever happens) ;-)
>
> Anyway, I hope Peter takes up the challenge. We couldn't be in better
> hands!
Well, without wishing to be contrary, PB's got a bit of a history of failing
to deliver. Remember Mach, Taos, Rooms, the guaranteed QOS OS, 24MB of VRAM
with 3 VIDC20, SMP...?
Dave
*Well, it helps to believe in what you're doing..
--
David Knell, Dave Ltd.
http://www.dave-ltd.clara.net
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
John Pearce
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
> I especially welcome views from dealers/isvs and people with money!!,
> however the great unwashed are required to give some
> realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
> I await yours comments!-:)
Well Peter, as one of the (I suspect) many unwashed, I had already
pledged 500 ukp towards the RPC2.
I wonder how many others would be prepared to put a deposit forward for a
chance of ressurecting the Phoeby?
Good luck with the future
--
regards
John Pearce Southend-on-Sea
pea...@rmplc.co.uk
Adrian John Warrick
If
> you could get Chris Cox, Dave Walker and perhaps Stuart Brodie then you have
> a 'Dream Team' ready to go. (Apologies to any other people in the
> Workstation division who I have not named - all I'm sure would give even
> greater strength to such a team.)
> I would hope any other groups thinking of a bid would be best getting behind
> such a team to give to project it's best chance.
Not only that but the brains behind the development of Boland's Box (I think
I may have missed some letters out sorry!), in leaving would cause a few
problems.
Adrian
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | /
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ awar...@argonet.co.uk
Adrian John Warrick
> I have held Acorn shares since 1987 and never seen a dividend so I know
> how to waste money but most people won't. I had faith which is what Acorn
> have lost. I have seen the share price vary between 6p and 300p but the
> current shareholders are the wrong breed.
Sell the shares that'll show em!
> The first action is making contact with Acorn to find out what type of
> deal they might make so that we can know what we can get out of them and
> at what price. What in reality does buying the workstation division
> consist of? Will they speak to you?
I have a feeling that Acorn in retaining the engineers, presumably to work on
the Digital TV project, will not want to sell a 'workstation division'.
If however some of the engineers can be persuaded to leave (long shot I know)
then it is merely the ASIC, RiscOS 4, and the motherboard design that is
needed. A standard PC case which uses the slot-in design would suffice and be
very cheap. Aw hell, we could probably buy the rights and moulds to the
yellow Pheebs case if we were so inclined.
Peter Brunning
> should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
> originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
> pastures
I think the Acorn scene is much poorer without someone of your vision and
drive. I am very keen to see a strong British competitor to Wintel and I
reckon you could play a major part.
However, it's fair to say that the task looks harder daily. I have seen
much of the technology in the Cambridge area either fold or get taken over,
usually by Americans and often with similarly devastating consequences.
There will be a change some time, but we could all make a fortune if we knew
what was coming next!
It's a tough decision for you, expecially as Acorn have rather damaged the
market by their announcement. No-one would blame you if you felt that a
change was in order!
--
_ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _
|_)|_ | |_ |_) |_)|_)| ||\ |\ |||\ |/ _
| |_ | |_ | \ |_)| \|_|| \| \||| \|\_/
--------- brun...@argonet.co.uk --------
-- http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/brunning --
Kell Gatherer
<ke...@locationworks.com> wrote:
>You have my backing, for the moment in spirit only, but I'll be in touch.
For what it's worth, my company has now offered a substantial (well, to us
anyway) amount towards Mr Bondar's efforts.
Greg Hennessy
>I think the "..when they ditch Windows" above is where you (that's the Acorn
>mafia/clique/clan/whatever) get things wrong. Most people aren't looking to
>ditch Windows - yes, it may be inefficient (in that it runs slower on my
>486/33 than RISC OS on my A5000) and big (40MB instead of 4) but both of
>these are irrelevant on today's hardware. And, in my experience, it fails to
>crash anywhere near as much as some would make out and, in its NT variant, is
>pretty robust. And, if I want to buy a scanner/printer/sound card/internal
>ISDN TA/device programmer/3D video card/whatever, the question isn't "does
>anyone make one" or "which one's David Pilling written drivers for" but
>"which one do I want?" There's a load of advantage from being mainstream,
>and you need to give people a hell of a good reason to move out of it.
>
Which of course is the reason why PCs are so successful. As far as
Joe User is concerned the OS is irrelevant, its the applications &
device support that matters.
greg
Mr. S. Ahmed
<pvi...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk> wrote:
> Look where Dyson has come (I think someone else mentioned him). A few
> years
> ago, no such thing, now having a Dyson is cool and trendy (if you're into
> home cleaning....), but you catch my drift. You need to turn it into some
> kind of English eccentric success story. I'm sure Richard Branson could
> pull off anything and get positive publicity for it.
I believe he was broke when he was trying to start his new venture(s), but
persistence payed off.
--
__ __ __ __ _______________________________________
|__ |__| |__| |__ | | | / Disclaimer: All my opinions /
__|| | | | | | |_\| / Spam mail will be deleted instantly! /
_______________________ \_/ ______ s.a...@argonet.co.uk ________/
Helge Hammer
> In article <6tugmj$94o$1...@supernews.com>, "Peter Bondar"
> <pbo...@avnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > upon the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
> >
>
>
> I intend to continue using Risc OS hardware and software as long as it
> remains possible to do so. If that means I have to stick with my existing
>
give my opinion on this, then I read Rob Hemming's letter, and I couldn't
have said it any better.
As for one living outside the UK I would certainly prefer the product
to have keyboard drivers for different countries, i.e. support for the
danish æ ø å (in that order, repeat æ, ø, å) same goes for Norway, Sweden
characters on the keyboard.
I don't mean silly patches that changes the Archimedes into a PC with
the keyboard plastered with red stickers showing that the / is now on top
of 7 and you can't find | or $ anymore.
There are many words containing the å in the danish language, and it is
a pain, always to type ALT-229, for example.
--
Helge Hammer
Andrew P. Harmsworth Esq.
<pvi...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk> wrote:
> now having a Dyson is cool and trendy
You know, you're damn right! I got one as a wedding present, and (like my
RiscPC) wouldn't be without it now. It truly sucks! (unlike my RiscPC!)
APH
--
Member Promoting MAUG http://move.to/MAUG * A P Harmsworth * * *
Science Coursework http://start.at/scirep * Warwick School Physics Dept
Warwick School http://welcome.to/warwick * WARWICK * 01926 776464
Solar System http://travel.to/theplanets * CV34 6PP, UK * * * *
Mr K R Spence
> is,
> should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
> originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
>
> I await yours comments!-:)
>
Pete you could spend you life having no stress or better still you could
help carry on the fight for a small computer system with some loyal fans.
Andy
P.s I would go for the no stress option, but then again your a lot wiser
than me :)
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- .---------------------------------------------.
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | |Internet provider for all Acorn RISC machines|
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | '---------------------------------------------'
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | KVAP....@argonet.co.uk
Ross Tierney
<pvi...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Tim Dawson <daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > One more thing... Acorn's weaknesses have ALWAYS been marketing
> > and to an extent, communication with the userbase (yes there
> > are probably others but not under PBs regime). These need
> > serious consideration.
>
> I think any new venture would need some really enthusiastic
> marketing and dynamic ideas to inspire the public. The media is
> bored by mundane 'business' type stuff. You need a marketing dept
> that can pull off some hair-raising stunts and get Acorn (or
> whatever the new venture is called) mentioned in the news in an
> indirect way.
Hmmm. Would that be like marketing something as dynamic as a certain
computer game we all know?
I Wonder who'd be well placed for such a scheme? :)
> Don't forget that the millennium is coming up and as Risc OS is
> unaffected by the problem you could tie in publicity there and
> harness the big negativity in the rest of the computer industry.
> How about someone abseiling down the millennium tower with an
> Acorn sweatshirt or something, getting all the TV cameras there
> and making sure some catchy 'millennium proof' catchphrase gets
> mentioned. You need street-cred, 'cool publicity' etc. Donate a
> new machine to 'All Saints' or something to compose a new record
> on, then invite them along to some 'bash' somewhere. Get people
> thinking about the machine. New Look, new style etc.
Something we do know at Eidos now: Image is everything.
Micro$oft wouldn't be so successful otherwise. It sure as hell isn't
their products that sell their systems.
> You need to turn it into some kind of English eccentric success
> story. I'm sure Richard Branson could pull off anything and get
> positive publicity for it.
Leave out the "English Eccentric" and I agree with you. The Americans
have a deep-rooted policy in their business markets to ONLY buy
American.
The famous story regarding the Harrier jump jet is the perfect
example. Until they got Grumman (IIRC) to build it natively, they
wouldn't adopt it.
Ross.
--
Ross Tierney.
r...@eidos.co.uk "Anger is an energy"
kra...@argonet.co.uk -John Lydon
Ross Tierney
<awar...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Snip
>
> I have a feeling that Acorn in retaining the engineers, presumably
> to work on the Digital TV project, will not want to sell a
> 'workstation division'.
Yes. It'll be very difficult to persuade them to get rid of their
engineers. However, if their engineers don't like Acorn's new focus
they may not stay anyway.
Alternatively, they may force a buy out still, but that's not as
sound an option as it was last week. Maybe that was Stan's reason for
doing this now.
> If however some of the engineers can be persuaded to leave (long
> shot I know) then it is merely the ASIC,
Ł200 per unit. 2,000 units = 2 million pounds.
> RiscOS 4,
Needs a fair amount of tweaking still 'cause the IOMD2 ASIC only came
in last week! Acorn are set up to do the work in half the time.
> and the motherboard design that is needed. A standard PC case
> which uses the slot-in design would suffice and be very cheap. Aw
> hell, we could probably buy the rights and moulds to the yellow
> Pheebs case if we were so inclined.
Yeah. That would still be an option if the Phoebe could be
resurrected.
Paul Vigay
Andrew P. Harmsworth Esq. <dna...@ni.edam.maps> wrote:
> In article <6tugmj$94o$1...@supernews.com>, "Peter Bondar"
> <pbo...@avnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > need a major shock to get this body restarted!
> OK, Peter - I volunteer to perform CPR on Phoebe! Seriously, though - it is
> good to see our 'Knight in shining AMRour' valiantly returning from the
> crusades. I hope the other Knights soon join you at a Round Table to save
> Camelot (did you /really/ say that the National Lottery use tweaked RiscPCs
> for their numbers machines?).
Do they? Hmmm, now, how does the random seed in ROS work.... :-)
(TFIC)
--
Paul Vigay Acorn Programming,
__\\|//__ Internet Consultancy
http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') & Web Design
-----------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
Look out of your window at night. Look up at the sky. You see that silver ghost? In twenty years time we will be living there.
John Evans
Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
> made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
> thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing).
Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second and
the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one clock
cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
John
--
John joh...@argonet.co.uk
armstrong
> Well boys and girls, I guess the last few days cast a different shadow upon
> the Acorn landscape...the question is where next?
>
> few discussion points to solicit feedback
> and promote a crystalisation of some of the current ideas.
>
> are still to come.........
>
> 4)Give up as its all to difficult, and Bill Gates is going to win anyhow.
>
> however the great unwashed are required to give some
> realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
I work in an institution in New Zealand which has approx 35 Risc pc's and about
5 A4000's -they are great machines -easy to set up and use and owning a Risc pc 600 (S/a)
myself I am a keen acorn enthusiast and hope to remain a user of the risc system as long as
possible or until it is replaced by something better.
In recent years a new boss decided the wordprocessing room electronic typewriters
should be replaced by IMB clones as "That's what everybody is using in industry" -
(he was a mac user himself). The head of that department, a pc user, wouldn't even
consider acorns "Far Too expensive" -Now we have staff who are also becoming pc
home users and are not prepaerd to be rational in their consideration of the facts.
WE have seen office staff swing to using M/S Word on their office Risc pc's which
are now being considered slow compared to faster pc's some staff have at home.(Not
good publicity for the Acorn's).
It's interesting that only now do we need a computer technician -the acorns we looked
after on our own -now about 10 hours a week is needed -mainly on the pc side.
As I see it for the riscos OS to survive we need to achieve several things:
1. * Most people have never heard of Acorn computers and those who are beginner users
of pc's (often because their spouses use them in other workplaces) quickly consider
pc's to be superior as "otherwise why isn't there more acorn's around" -Macs are more
well known and therefore their bias is weaker -they don't know enough to
criticise what they don't understand.(The closest town has about 6-8 computer shops
none sell acorns -our nearest acorn dealer is over 90 miles away and there are
only two acorn dealers in a city of 220,000 -pages of pc dealers).
There was a time (A4000) when the box shifters sold them and people did see them
but they sold more pc's and ceased to stock acorns.
Get their profile up -either with "almost everyone has one or at least hears of
them.On TV there is an advert for Acorn (a toy shop) -I have never see one for
acorn computers.
Low profile = none in institutions, schools or workplaces only the dedicated few who
understand their strengths. (people generally go with the herd) unless they are prepared
to learn of and understand the differences and advantages.
Acorn's(Risc pc's) can only be justified by our boss "as the machines that do both
(ie. run riscOS and PC) " countered by others with "but they are so expensive (initially)!.
The concept of value for money and longeveity of the acorn seems to mean nothing to the
pc enthusiasts -they say that pc's are now able to be easily upgraded anyway.
2. The Risc pc 2 name is wise as the Risc pc one has earnt respect and it mentions "pc"
which fends off the pro pc crowd to some extent. (To make it yellow and remove the "pc"
part of the name would lead to loss of credibility in institutions where we are fighting
to justify their purchase -those few of us acorn users who understand and have a budget will
continue to buy acorns if the support,including third party, is there. A new name if chosen
will need to be very carefully thought out.Even names like KTX sound a little more sophisicate d these days.
3. Aim to try to close the gap in the changes to pc's so when we are forced to use the
pc card we can indeed do what the pc's doand as quickly(speed of m/s programmes, drivers,perip herals -I guess third parties have the challenge here.
4. Initial price -stop the criticism -sure we users will pay a little more for
value but how much more is the question.
Great machines may they long continue to be developed and best wishes in the pursuit of
excellence with this quality product and a higher profile.
--
Russell Armstrong
Victor Markwart
> > the question for me is,
> > should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
> > originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
>
> I think the Acorn scene is much poorer without someone of your vision and
> drive. I am very keen to see a strong British competitor to Wintel and I
> reckon you could play a major part.
>
> However, it's fair to say that the task looks harder daily.
I agree with all of the above. However my 2 cents worth is that there is
a sizeable market for a versatile enthusiasts machine - easy to program
and easy to hang things off. This is what made the original BBC so
popular. Windoze machines do not really fall into this category, so a
niche exists, but it will take vision, luck and money, which often seem
to be mutually exclusive, to make a go of it.
TTFN
Victor
Jeremy A.Smith
<488816eb...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk>...
years
> ago, no such thing, now having a Dyson is cool and trendy (if you're into
> kind of English eccentric success story. I'm sure Richard Branson could
> pull off anything and get positive publicity for it.
Good idea!! Of course, you could always try advertising on TV - I could
come up with crisp advertising for 'no money'.
> P.S. I'd volunteer to be marketing director.... :-)
I'll be 'press officer'. :-) And reverse-engineering bloke.
Jeremy
--
www2.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi = Large amusing web-zine
* Sharksoft presents:
* Infocom Decompiler = www2.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi/uninform/instruct.htm
* HTMLize 4 Win95 - rename entire folders full of HTML files to their
HTML <title>s = www2.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi/htmlize/
VinceH
Ross Tierney <kra...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> £200 per unit. 2,000 units = 2 million pounds.
I take it that the figure on the right is only an approximation of the
calculation? :-)
VinceH
* If you hold out the hand of friendship, I'll be watching the other hand.
--
Soft Rock Software, FREEPOST (BS7978), Westbury-on-Trym, Bristol, BS10 7BR
Paul Vigay
Jeremy A.Smith <xeremy...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Windows CE vs the Psion Series 5 shows that this is not the case [WinCE has
> sold about 500,000 for all the WinCE machines in existence - the Series 5
> has sold 500,000, full stop] - If Psion can win, there's hope for the
> British computer industry.
Being realistic about this, the Psion has won because Epoc32 is better than
WinCE on EVERY count. Even techie people will know this. Epoc32 is faster,
more efficient, nicer to use and reliable. WinCE isn't. That's why it's
called "wince".
Risc OS was outdated on a number of things. Sure, these don't tend to
matter to the users who love it's user interface (in my view, the best in
the world), but a number of techies would argue about it's internal
workings etc. Epoc32 is much more powerful than Risc OS, but is still let
down by a less efficient user interface. At least the advocates of
pre-emptive MT can't complain though! :-)
--
Paul Vigay Acorn Programming,
__\\|//__ Internet Consultancy
http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') & Web Design
-----------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
Windows is for fun, Risc OS is for getting things done
Mark Gillman
> Remember this is a warm body potentially fatally wounded, its going to need
> a major shock to get this body restarted!
>
> Like any other poentially dead body the longer you leave it the greater the
> difficulty of ressuciation.
So there you go then, you've just created a name for the group/company;
Flatliners :-)
> I especially welcome views from dealers/isvs and people with money!!,
> however the great unwashed are required to give some
> realistic view of a new private "acorn" product business.
Might it be worth concentrating not on desktop machines where most of
the damage has now been done and where BG has his stranglehold, and
looking instead towards the handheld market? I've often thought that
RISC OS would make a rather nifty OS for a portable.
> As some of you may have known I have spent the last 3 months building my new
> plane, (http://www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown/pages/mcr012.htm)
Cool! How much?
> however now is the time to get back into business, the question for me is,
> should I get back into the 'acorn' scene or should I (as I
> originally planned and why I have stayed conspicuously quiet) go onto new
> pastures.
Sensible option ; run like buggery.
Balls-out option ; join the fray. You'd be a valuable asset to any
attempt if only
because you have the contacts and inside knowledge. Lots of potential
deals that
didn't quite make it to fruition?
Quite honestly, the odds are not good so in the end it comes down to
whether you
personally can afford to take the risk.
--
Mark Gillman
One time a cop pulled me over for running a stop sign. He said, "Didn't
you
see the stop sign?" I said, "Yeah, but I don't believe everything I
read."
Darren Salt
Helge Hammer <jule...@post4.tele.dk> wrote:
[snip]
> As for one living outside the UK I would certainly prefer the product
> to have keyboard drivers for different countries, i.e. support for the
> danish æ ø å (in that order, repeat æ, ø, å) same goes for Norway, Sweden
> characters on the keyboard.
æ, Æ: (Shift-)Alt-'A' The Caps Lock setting isn't used.
ø, Ø: (Shift-)Alt-'O' Ditto.
å, Å: Alt-'.' 'A' No Caps Lock problem.
It's detailed in the Welcome Guide...
--
| Darren Salt anti-UCE | ds@youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | nr. Ashington,
| Risc PC, Spectrum +3, | ds@zap,uk,eu,org | Northumberland
| A3010, BBC Master 128 | arcsalt@spuddy,mew,co,uk | Toon Army
| Wanted: PRM v5/5a
Take care of the pennies and the Inland Revenue will take care of the rest.
Alex Bach Andersen
Helge Hammer <jule...@post4.tele.dk> wrote:
> There are many words containing the å in the danish language, and it is
> a pain, always to type ALT-229, for example.
Helge, do as I do: Alt+.+a gives an å. Alt+.+Shift+a gives Å. Quite simple.
ø=Alt+o æ=Alt+a etc.
--
Alex Bach Andersen, free-lance conductor UIN: 8285066
NodeSats/MusicTypesetting - Acorn RISC PC 600 - 710ARMed
Copenhagen, Denmark http://home6.inet.tele.dk/alexbach/
.... If it works, rip it apart and find out why!
Alan Wrigley
Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> How can we tempt users away from other platforms? How do we persuade them
> to buy RiscOS rather than Mac/BeOS/unix when they ditch Windows? How will
> any new company support Paul Vigay in his unofficial marketing role? ;-)
>
> There are probably tens of thousands of people out there, right now,
> crying in front of a Windows machine doing the umpteenth reboot of the
> day. Any business plan should consider how to get these peoples attention
> as much as how to raise the capital for a Phoebe buyout/production.
I detect quite a significant shift in the PC world towards a desire for
an alternative to Microsoft. I know several (non-techie) people who have
seen adverts for the iMac and said "Oooh, I'd like one of those". I read
PC Plus regularly (in order to keep up to date with what's happening
outside Acorn) and there has been a lot of demand lately for coverage of
other OSes, to the point that the magazine has now started regular
articles about Linux and has put a version of Linux on its cover disc.
And as far as I can see, Windows 98 has attracted nothing but criticism
so far.
The problem with promoting Acorn as a serious alternative has always
been that one word "Acorn". For some reason it always evokes antagonism
among the unconverted. A new company with enough financial backing and
some inspired marketing might be able to succeeed where Acorn could not.
And notice that I said "alternative" and not "replacement". People might
like the idea of an alternative to Windows, but they don't necessarily
want to cut themselves off from using Windows if it's necessary to do
so. I feel that RISC OS might have much more chance of success if it
were marketed as an alternative OS, like Linux or BeOS, rather than
being seen as tied to Acorn hardware.
Damn! I wasn't going to bother contributing to these newsgroups again,
then along comes a matter of such serious import that I couldn't stop
myself.
Alan
--
Alan Wrigley http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/alan/
Software engineer, photographer
Sack - Adam Hay
<pvi...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk> wrote:
>P.S. I'd volunteer to be marketing director.... :-)
And I volunteer to make an arse of myself endangering my life in the persuit
of publicity :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Hay 'Sack' on IRCnet (#argonet, #acorn)
Mailto: Sa...@cyberdude.com ICQ: 10534487
http://www.argonet.co.uk/armdanddangerous/ - ARM'd & Dangerous
http://www.sacks-domain.home.ml.org/ - My Acorn Freeware
Dave Cooper
wrote:
>
> One possible source of finance who I've yet to see mentioned is Cliff
> Stanford, ex-Demon, now MD of the 'seed capital' firm Redbus Investments.
> He seems to be a pretty decent chap, and would appear to be fairly keen on
> British technology and innovation. He also has huge piles of cash...
>
> http://www.redbus.co.uk/
>
> PJ - so what's Linux's MIDI/pro-audio support like?
>
Good suggestion!
and I'd even let him paint it 'red' if he came up with the cash!! :-))
Regards, Dave C.
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ ______________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / StrongArm Risc Pc (586 PcCard) Clan & MAUG.
| || \\__/\__/| \||__ | / ArgoRing.AcornRing.Interests-Comp.Sat.AV.SF
___________________________/ Classical music & Wine. d...@argonet.co.uk
Homepage (inc.free photos) http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dac/index.html
Greg Hennessy
wrote:
>Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second and
>the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one clock
>cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
>instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
Every Intel processor since the Pentium has had a dual instruction
decoder & can issue on average more than 1 instruction/clock cycle.
AMD K6s' decode X86 in to whats termed IIRC Risc86 microops & can
issue these at up 6/cycle. You just dont want to know what a PA-Risc
can do. Given that the ARM is essentially an embedded microcontroller,
speed is irrelevant. That battle was over a long long time ago.
greg
Kell Gatherer
<al...@cybervillage.co.uk> wrote:
>Damn! I wasn't going to bother contributing to these newsgroups again,
>then along comes a matter of such serious import that I couldn't stop
>myself.
Alan, I'm always interested to hear what you have to say.
Don't go away.
couch
Mark Gillman <ma...@gillmen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Might it be worth concentrating not on desktop machines where most of
> the damage has now been done and where BG has his stranglehold, and
> looking instead towards the handheld market? I've often thought that
> RISC OS would make a rather nifty OS for a portable.
Now this would be a brillint idea!
Deras speech recognition software would negate the need for a keyboard.
The arm would keep batteries alive for ages! And I would be able to
stop programming Husky fs/n and Epoc16 bloody psions.
Please someone play with this idea!
--
------------------------------------------------------
luv
couch
Ross Tierney
<ma...@gillmen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Might it be worth concentrating not on desktop machines where most of
> the damage has now been done and where BG has his stranglehold, and
> looking instead towards the handheld market? I've often thought that
> RISC OS would make a rather nifty OS for a portable.
Hiya Mark. We've got to meet up some time soon.
Anyway; Remember that cute little NewsPAD from way back?
ARM7500 powered (not FE), 800x600 256cols and a touch screen?
I always wanted one of them myself. Take a look at Doctor Franklin in
medlab on Babylon 5 some time and you'll see a device that looks quite
similar in his palm.
A StrongARM version would be really nice.
Perhaps, when they release the Peanut, IMS should look at doing
something similar. Acorn must still have the technical stuff on some
dusty shelf.
> Sensible option ; run like buggery.
> Balls-out option ; join the fray. You'd be a valuable asset to any
> attempt if only because you have the contacts and inside knowledge.
> Lots of potential deals that didn't quite make it to fruition?
>
> Quite honestly, the odds are not good so in the end it comes down
> to whether you personally can afford to take the risk.
The short-term future is quite good now with the consortium
rejuvinating the "Phoebe: Risc PC 2" project.
The longer term future however is what *I'm* interested in though.
RISC OS is broken by the 26bit mode problem.
The alternatives are:
1) Run away and hide hoping nothing will go wrong.
2) Re-write RISC OS for 32biy mode (assuming sources are made freely
available: 1.5 million quid makes this implausable).
3) Linux based system, that to average "users" looks, and feels
pretty darned close to the RISC OS one we're all used to.
Perhaps with some of the funky features which were in CC's
"Impulse" OS.
I know which one I'm thinking about.
Greg Hennessy
<webr...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>But from a PR point of view a 500Mhz chip that takes 10 cycles for every
>instruction is better as a 400Mhz one that takes only 1 cycle per
>instruction.
Hence Cyrix & AMD with their PR processor markings.
greg
Fat German
Buy a Playstation. 99 quid.
> Industry standard file formats
Sad but true. Nobody in business will buy a non-Windows PC if they already
use Windows apps. Companies invest literally millions in huge databases,
the front-ends for which run on Windows or Unix. Most companies have
standardised on Word or Excel. Therefore you need a program which can
load/save Word and Excel etc etc. That program needs to be updated
immediately (not in a couple of months) when MS change the file format. Web
browsers - You must have Java, director, realaudio or nobody in business
will look at you. And because people get all that for business, they expect
it at home. Telling them "But this one has a much niver GUI and the
hardware is so much nicer" will not sell anything.
> Idiot help
Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it doesn't
assume I'm an idiot.
> Not least, *presence* and *availability* in both the high street/retail
> park computer superstores and your local friendly computer shop.
Too right. The way to large sales is not through specialist dealers. It's
through box shifters. But box shifters specialise in PCs and aren't likely
to point people towards Acorns unless they have a financial incentive to do
so. Which is probably against the law.
As an aside, I was in the Beebug "showroom" a while back and someone walked
in and wanted to buy a home computer. They obviously knew nothing about
computers. Here, I thought, was a perfect opportunity for Beebug to sell an
Acorn. "Well," said the sales assistant, "we can sell you an Acorn home
computer, but they're not industry standard and won't run all the big games
or things like Word." Great salesmanship. The family left, very confused. I
happened to follow them out of the shop. They were saying "Let's go down to
PC world, they're on the telly they must know what they're talking about."
I thought that summed up the Acorn situation perfectly.
Mark.
Nigel Parker
: Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
:
: > Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
: > made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
: > thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing).
:
: Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second and
: the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one clock
: cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
: instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
But what normal people (ie non-techie geeks, like ourselves ;-) would know
of these sort of facts? I doubt you could sell a 300MHz ARM system by
saying in the advert "equivalent in performance to 450MHz PC because..."!
Nigel
--
Girton College, Cambridge, England, CB3 0JG. Tel: 0411 384803
http://welcome.to/nigels nigel....@iee.org
Gary Jones
> In article <ant18234...@darwin.u-net.com>,
> Tim Dawson <daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > extent, communication with the userbase (yes there are probably others but
> > not
> > under PBs regime). These need serious consideration.
>
> I think any new venture would need some really enthusiastic marketing and
> dynamic ideas to inspire the public. The media is bored by mundane
> hair-raising stunts and get Acorn (or whatever the new venture is called)
> mentioned in the news in an indirect way.
<sad git>
ISTR devotees of Star Trek organising a campaign to re-instate the
series. NBC were inundated with mail. That action got a great
deal of publicity and it worked. </sad git>
> Note Richard Branson gets more publicity for Virgin by doing dare-devil
> stunts in balloons etc than appearing for press conferences etc. Perhaps we
> need an Acorn balloon or some other 'English eccentric' scheme to get
> publicity etc.
>
> Don't forget that the millennium is coming up and as Risc OS is unaffected
> by the problem you could tie in publicity there and harness the big
> negativity in the rest of the computer industry. How about someone
> abseiling down the millennium tower with an Acorn sweatshirt or something,
> getting all the TV cameras there and making sure some catchy 'millennium
> proof' catchphrase gets mentioned. You need street-cred, 'cool publicity'
> etc. Donate a new machine to 'All Saints' or something to compose a new
> record on, then invite them along to some 'bash' somewhere. Get people
> thinking about the machine. New Look, new style etc.
>
> Look where Dyson has come (I think someone else mentioned him). A few years
> ago, no such thing, now having a Dyson is cool and trendy (if you're into
> home cleaning....), but you catch my drift. You need to turn it into some
> kind of English eccentric success story. I'm sure Richard Branson could
> pull off anything and get positive publicity for it.
Hmmm... what about Trevor Bayliss, the British inventor who
invented a clockwork radio. Is that eccentic enough?
Any other names/entrepreneurs apart from Branson, Bayliss, Dyson?
--
Gary Jones mailto:ga...@cams.nwnet.co.uk
STILL using the Acorn Risc PC 700
Helge Hammer
<URL:mailto:alex...@CUTMEOUTisa.dknet.dk> wrote:
> In message <ant192148d07uq=A...@120007538000.post4.tele.dk>
> Helge Hammer <jule...@post4.tele.dk> wrote:
>
> > There are many words containing the å in the danish language, and it is
> > a pain, always to type ALT-229, for example.
>
> Helge, do as I do: Alt+.+a gives an å. Alt+.+Shift+a gives Å. Quite simple.
> ø=Alt+o æ=Alt+a etc.
>
Thanks for your reply. It seems that part of my message was corrupted
some text was missing for some reason, therefore the misunderstanding.
Sorry!
What I would say was that if you want to build a new computer, the
PhønixPC, you will also need to SELL it.
Imagine a beginner or a PC user comes into the shop and says, let's
see the new baby. At first glance it looks just fine, but hey, where's
the æ, ø and å?
Well, they aren't there, you have to type ALT+...
He will laugh and go get himself a "decent" PC. He will never know
what he missed.
The Danish characters (or Swedish, Norwegian, etc.) ought to be there,
visible on the keyboard in some way, (as they are on any PC sold in
Denmark) or else you will never SELL one single PhønixPC to a person
who has never used an Acorn before. NOT ONE. I am serious.
--
Helge Hammer - email: jule...@post4.tele.dk
Ettrup Juletræer & Pyntegrønt, 9620 Aalestrup, Danmark
http://home4.inet.tele.dk/juletrae/ tlf/fax 98647197
James Stewart
<URL:mailto:ga...@camsSPAMOFF.nwnet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <488816eb...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk>, Paul Vigay
> <URL:mailto:pvi...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ant18234...@darwin.u-net.com>,
> > Tim Dawson <daws...@noUCE.cf.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > One more thing... Acorn's weaknesses have ALWAYS been marketing and to an
> > > extent, communication with the userbase (yes there are probably others but
> > > not
> > > under PBs regime). These need serious consideration.
> >
> > I think any new venture would need some really enthusiastic marketing and
> > dynamic ideas to inspire the public. The media is bored by mundane
> > 'business' type stuff. You need a marketing dept that can pull off some
> > hair-raising stunts and get Acorn (or whatever the new venture is called)
> > mentioned in the news in an indirect way.
>
> <sad git>
> ISTR devotees of Star Trek organising a campaign to re-instate the
> series. NBC were inundated with mail. That action got a great
> deal of publicity and it worked. </sad git>
But they pulled the series the next year.
James.
--
James Stewart | The Britlinks | The Phantom Tollbooth
ja...@britlinks.co.uk | http://www.britlinks.co.uk | http://www.tollbooth.org
Sticky Music on the web - http://www.britlinks.co.uk/stickymusic/
david...@my-dejanews.com
> But what normal people (ie non-techie geeks, like ourselves ;-) would know
> of these sort of facts? I doubt you could sell a 300MHz ARM system by
> saying in the advert "equivalent in performance to 450MHz PC because..."
..because the Advertising Standards Authority requires that adverts be
truthful?
Dave
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
N/V/S Fazakerley
Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, John Evans wrote:
>
> : Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> :
> : > Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
> : > made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the
> first
> : > thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing).
> :
> : Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second
> and
> : the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one
> clock
> : cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
> : instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
>
> of these sort of facts? I doubt you could sell a 300MHz ARM system by
You can if you're Apple. But then again we're talking about proper marketing
there (at least recently). Apple ignore inferior G3 clock speed and just say
it's faster than a Pentium. (Small asterisk leads to fly sh*t saying Byte
/integer/ benchmark.) :-)
-Neil F.
--
................................................................................
** 233MHz Acorn RiscPC. (A Windoze free zone) **
NEIL FAZAKERLEY f a z @ a r g o n e t . c o . uk
................................................................................
Robert Werry
<URL:mailto:pdo...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Peter! We need you! Come back.
>
>
Ditto!
--
Robert Werry .^.
Robert Werry Computer Services '___'
165 Nicholson's Lane Harwood Island NSW 2465 Australia Acorn'. .'
Email:rwe...@nor.com.au Phone/Fax: +61 (0)2 66464377 --'._
Paul Vigay
Ross Tierney <kra...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <3604F93A...@gillmen.demon.co.uk>, Mark Gillman
> <ma...@gillmen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Might it be worth concentrating not on desktop machines where most of
> > the damage has now been done and where BG has his stranglehold, and
> > looking instead towards the handheld market? I've often thought that
> > RISC OS would make a rather nifty OS for a portable.
Problem there is that you'd be competing against Epoc32 on the Psion 5
(also ARM based) which is actually pretty good as OS's go. You don't want
to damage Psions market too much either because they are already doing a
stirling job of fighting WinCE.
--
Paul Vigay Acorn Programming,
__\\|//__ Internet Consultancy
http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') & Web Design
-----------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo---------------------------
So, what were you planning on doing tonight, then?
Greg Hennessy
wrote:
>> Idiot help
>
>Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it doesn't
>assume I'm an idiot.
>
Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
what more do acorn need ?
greg
and...@planetfall.demon.co.uk
nigel....@iee.org wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, John Evans wrote:
>
> : Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> :
> : > Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
> : > made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
> : > thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing).
> :
> : Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second and
> : the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one clock
> : cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
> : instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
>
> But what normal people (ie non-techie geeks, like ourselves ;-) would know
> of these sort of facts? I doubt you could sell a 300MHz ARM system by
> saying in the advert "equivalent in performance to 450MHz PC because..."!
>
Well then, just sell a 450 mips machine and don't mention that it only runs at
300mhz (or what ever), those in the know would understand and those who just
want a fast computer like those next door would be happy too :-)
Andrew .. @planetfall.demon.co.uk
Fat German
Maybe I should rephrase myself..:-) viz; I don't believe the presence of a
standardised help system is actually an advantage. : It uses up megs of disc
space for something that only 1% of users (to make up a figure out of thin air)
actually read. Certainly I know of nobody who uses Windows who ever uses the
help.
Mark.
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:ga...@camsSPAMOFF.nwnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Hmmm... what about Trevor Bayliss, the British inventor who
> invented a clockwork radio. Is that eccentic enough?
Hey! What with the low power consumption, how about a wind-up StrongArm
computer? :-)
--
Paul Vigay Computer Resources Manager,
__\\|//__ Bohunt Community School
http://www.matrix.clara.net (` o-o ') Liphook, Hampshire
---------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-----------------------------
All views my own and I reserve the right to change them without warning!
Dave Carter
Fat German <mgre...@madge.com> wrote:
>Greg Hennessy wrote:
>>
>> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
>> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
>> what more do acorn need ?
>>
>
>Maybe I should rephrase myself..:-) viz; I don't believe the presence of a
>standardised help system is actually an advantage. : It uses up megs of disc
>space for something that only 1% of users (to make up a figure out of thin
air)
>actually read. Certainly I know of nobody who uses Windows who ever uses the
>help.
Well I think a standardised help system that really tells you what might have
gone wrong is an advantage, but Windows help isn't it. It assumes all users
are morons, as does the documentation. Cue obvious replies. But I had a
problem yesterday with either Windows or the software over it, screwing up
printing, the most help you can get is it asking if you have checked the
cables are connected. Or whether you pressed the right button to print. Of
course I *****y have, I want a help system to tell me things I don't know.
Dave Carter
Paul Firth
> In article <Pine.HPP.3.96L.98092...@club.eng.cam.ac.uk>,
> nigel....@iee.org wrote:
> > On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, John Evans wrote:
> >
> > : Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > :
> > : > Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
> > : > made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
>
> > : > thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing).
> > :
> > : Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second and
> > : the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one clock
>
> > : cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
> > : instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
> >
> > But what normal people (ie non-techie geeks, like ourselves ;-) would know
> > of these sort of facts? I doubt you could sell a 300MHz ARM system by
> > saying in the advert "equivalent in performance to 450MHz PC because..."!
> >
>
> Well then, just sell a 450 mips machine and don't mention that it only runs at
>
> 300mhz (or what ever), those in the know would understand and those who just
> want a fast computer like those next door would be happy too :-)
Yeah, but using MIPS as a guide won't help you either coz RISC MIPS
arecompletely different to CISC MIPS - use something universal, like
dhrystones/s eg. a P200 non MMX does 377358 dhrys/s
--
---------------------------------
Cheers, Paul (pa...@minds-eye.net)
---------------------------------
Will there be T.P ?
Peter Howkins
> And I volunteer to make an arse of myself endangering my life in the persuit
> of publicity :)
>
Ditto, I'm good at making an arse of myself. :)
Peter
ps If anyone wants a place to talk about plans, I could set up a talker
in a couple of hours.
--
<p.j.h...@lboro.ac.uk>
Andy Pickering
> In article <ant21100...@cams.nwnet.co.uk>, Gary Jones
> <URL:mailto:ga...@camsSPAMOFF.nwnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... what about Trevor Bayliss, the British inventor who
> > invented a clockwork radio. Is that eccentic enough?
>
> Hey! What with the low power consumption, how about a wind-up StrongArm
> computer? :-)
I think Trevor Baylis already has a wind-up laptop in the pipeline.
I expect this will be a Pentium-based Wintel PC so I imagine
he will do best to market it as an exercise machine.
Andy Pickering
--
********************************************************************
* Home:- Work:- *
* Andy Pickering Phoenix VLSI Consultants *
* an...@surtsey.demon.co.uk an...@phoenixvlsi.co.uk *
* 01788 536740 01327 357800 *
********************************************************************
* StrongArm RiscPC *
********************************************************************
Andy Pickering
> The Danish characters (or Swedish, Norwegian, etc.) ought to be there,
> visible on the keyboard in some way, (as they are on any PC sold in
> Denmark) or else you will never SELL one single PhønixPC to a person
> who has never used an Acorn before. NOT ONE. I am serious.
>
If the machine used standard keyboards (which would be the only sensible
option), then any machine sold in Denmark, Norway etc. could be sold
with that nationality's standard keyboard. As long as the key is there,
there is no problem supplying drivers to generate that character when
it is pushed.
Perhaps a further point would be to provide OS messages in a wider
range of languages than RiscOS currently supports (English, Welsh,
German only???). Bill Gates recently insulted the whole Icelandic
nation by refusing to port W98 to Icelandic. Anyone who knows
anything about Icelanders will know they are very proud of their
linguistic heritage (even more so than the Welsh!) and did not
take kindly to Bill Gates' attitude.
A quick look down the newsgroup suggests that we already have people
from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Iceland, Belgium,
Ireland, France who might be able to help (sorry if I've missed anyone).
Perhaps this is the opportunity to establish a new standard European
platform to try and thwart the pervasive takeover of American technology.
Heaven knows what effect the IT industry must have on the balance of
trade between Europe and the US. Not to mention how much extra the
blind take-up of PC systems has cost regarding the millenium bug.
I don't think there would ever have been a possibility of gaining
widespread acceptance of Acorn as a standard platform in Europe for
political reasons. But a new platform (based on the old OS but we can
keep quiet about that), with input from a range of European countries
might be a different matter...
Another aim of mine would be to ensure that a standard, expandable
vector file format (i.e. Draw or similar) was specified with the OS,
and why not also for DTP documents, databases, spreadsheets etc.
If the OS included open formats for all forms of data interchange,
then maybe this would attract business users from the PC market who
are currently caught up in the never-ending cycle of upgrading their
software so that they can exchange Word files for example..
I hope I haven't been getting too carried away here.
Cheers,
Dave Vint
Nigel Parker wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, John Evans wrote:
>
> : Nigel Parker <95...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> :
> : > Any new machine, whether Phoebe or newly developed, should be
> : > made attractive to new users - that means we need lots of MHz (the first
> : > thing people look at) and a reasonable price (the second thing).
> :
> : Oh beware of the MHz!! The thing that matters is instructions/second and
> : the ARM is one of the few chips that achieves one instruction in one clock
> : cycle. It is thus a LOT faster than some chips which only manage an
> : instruction every few cycles but have equal MHz ratings!!!
>
> But what normal people (ie non-techie geeks, like ourselves ;-) would know
> of these sort of facts? I doubt you could sell a 300MHz ARM system by
> saying in the advert "equivalent in performance to 450MHz PC because..."!
>
This is precisely what IBM/Cyrix do with their 6x86 chips. Instead of quoting
the actual clock speed, they quote a 'performance rating', eg PR200. Allegedly
the Cyrix chips are much more efficient than the Intel ones. The PR300 actually
runs at 225MHz.
Dave.
--
Dave Vint.
TENET Systems Ltd.
Dave Vint
Paul Vigay wrote:
> In article <ant21100...@cams.nwnet.co.uk>, Gary Jones
> <URL:mailto:ga...@camsSPAMOFF.nwnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... what about Trevor Bayliss, the British inventor who
> > invented a clockwork radio. Is that eccentic enough?
>
> Hey! What with the low power consumption, how about a wind-up StrongArm
> computer? :-)
Been there, seen it done that. ISTR that Bayliss was involved in a prototype
clockwork Newton !
Mark
dejanews.com writes
>As someone who has made a fairly complete switch away from Acorns to
>Wintel machines over the last couple of years, I'm using them because they
>do the stuff that I want. I'm yet to see a development environment to touch
>Visual Studio -
Obviously not a Java programmer...
--
Mark
ag.
dealers on presentation I found the few Acorn shops I have seen looked
more like secondhand charity shops than technology centres - not been
painted for ages.way out of date faded posters/displays small wonder that
many would be buyers go to PC world or similar
this comment is on looks not content - which is very relevant todays world
ag
--
Chika
Greg Hennessy <cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
> >Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it doesn't
> >assume I'm an idiot.
> >
> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
> what more do acorn need ?
Hmm... does this mean that you use Windoze help on a regular basis then?
I have the dubious honour of having to babysit a large contingent of
newbies through their first attempts on Win95 and I can tell you that this
wonderful "standardised" help is totally useless. In other words, a
standard that cannot be used effectively is of no use to man, beast nor
curiously wayward trolls. (I could be mistaken with the last though!)
Mind you, what help you get on Acorn programs is not what I would call
totally inaccessible. The Menu>Help click isn't so hard to use...
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe? Wherefore
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages ART thou, Phoebe?
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... ILLITERATE? Write for a free brochure...
Ted Lepley
<pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In article <ant21100...@cams.nwnet.co.uk>, Gary Jones
> <URL:mailto:ga...@camsSPAMOFF.nwnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... what about Trevor Bayliss, the British inventor who
> > invented a clockwork radio. Is that eccentic enough?
>
> Hey! What with the low power consumption, how about a wind-up StrongArm
> computer? :-)
Certainly make the mind boggle if it was a laptop. Surely that would make
a very attractive machine worldwide.
Ted.
--
ZFC S+ ted...@argonet.co.uk
Clan member East London. UK
Using Voyager V.2.0
Wed,23 Sep 1998.00:47:08
Lionel Smith
wrote:
> ISTR that Bayliss was involved in a
> prototype clockwork Newton !
A clockwork Apple and Newton all in one, how clever! ;-)
Lionel
--
___ ______
/ / / ___/ 6 grandchildren | Sea Vixen for pugnacity
/ / ionel A.| \ mith 4 children & 1 dog | Hunter for elegance
/ /____ __\ | No wonder life is a breeze | Phantom for clout
/_______/ /_____/ lio...@argonet.co.uk | IT Tech. Supp. | ZFC B+2
Don't forget to dip your Celeron in the salt.
Richard Walker
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:42:44 +0100, Fat German <mgre...@madge.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > Idiot help
> >
> > Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it
> > doesn't assume I'm an idiot.
>
> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
> what more do acorn need ?
Hmm... I think I'm sort-of agreeing with Greg here...
The Windows help system is a good idea. Although, in my opinion, it's
badly executed ('cos the help window pops to be back of the stack when you
make the current application 'active' - silly Windows...).
I remember last year having to use Access 2 for a small database project.
The on-line help was a godsend. You don't need a manual!
On the other hand, the 'troubleshooters' and 'animated paper clips' are a
total waste of space and I NEVER want to see such russish implemented in
ANY RISC OS application.
Oh, and to be fair to RISC OS... there is a standard 'interactive help'
system, and CC did a clone of 'Windows Help' (HyperView) for ArtWorks and
Impression etc.
--
Richard.
"The girl that's driving me mad is going away."
Paul Vigay
<URL:mailto:an...@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I think Trevor Baylis already has a wind-up laptop in the pipeline.
> I expect this will be a Pentium-based Wintel PC so I imagine
> he will do best to market it as an exercise machine.
I'd have thought a more sensible solution would just go for a wind up power
supply, then you could power what you like off it, from a radio, personal
stereo to laptop or video camcorder.
Just wind it up and get 5v out of a socket or something?
Henning Hansen
<URL:mailto:an...@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The Danish characters (or Swedish, Norwegian, etc.) ought to be there,
> > visible on the keyboard in some way, (as they are on any PC sold in
> > Denmark) or else you will never SELL one single PhønixPC to a person
> > who has never used an Acorn before. NOT ONE. I am serious.
> >
>
> If the machine used standard keyboards (which would be the only sensible
> option), then any machine sold in Denmark, Norway etc. could be sold
> with that nationality's standard keyboard. As long as the key is there,
> there is no problem supplying drivers to generate that character when
> it is pushed.
>
There are danish keyboard drivers available for RISC OS, and I can even
supply transparent labels for the keyboard, so that should not have to
be a problem unless you prefer using the UK keyboard layout for
programming etc. (as many danish Acorn users do).
However, I never succeeded in creating a danish Territory for RISC OS.
I hope better tools for internationalisation will be available for
future machines, but I very much doubt that Acorn has done anything in
that direction for Phoebe (?)
Henning Hansen
mailto:h...@kayak.dk
Helge Hammer
<URL:mailto:h...@2m.dk> wrote:
> In article <19980922....@surtsey.demon.co.uk>, Andy Pickering
> <URL:mailto:an...@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <ant211929fc4uq=A...@120007538000.post4.tele.dk> Helge Hammer wrote:
> >
> >
> > If the machine used standard keyboards (which would be the only sensible
> > option), then any machine sold in Denmark, Norway etc. could be sold
>
>
> There are danish keyboard drivers available for RISC OS, and I can even
> supply transparent labels for the keyboard, so that should not have to
>
certainly prevent any potential customer from buying it.
Look, PhønixPC needs to be sold to a wider forum than Acorns, the latter
lacked support for different countries. Don't do this mistake again.
--
Helge Hammer
Fat German
> In article <360781C1...@madge.com>,
> Fat German <mgre...@madge.com> wrote:
> >Greg Hennessy wrote:
<snip>
> Well I think a standardised help system that really tells you what might have
> gone wrong is an advantage, but Windows help isn't it.
Ah, you mean a system that says something like "Application xxx has gone wrong.
This is because you selected menu item xxxx followed by menu item wwww with yyyy
selected in window aaaaa. This caused the program to encounter a bug in module
aaaa. To avoid this happening again do etc etc etc."
That would be wonderful, I agree.
Mark.
Fat German
> As someone who has made a fairly complete switch away from Acorns to
> Wintel machines over the last couple of years, I'm using them because they
> do the stuff that I want.
Then you're doing the right thing. I still use Acorns because they just about do
the stuff I want, and I'm prepared to work around the limitations because using
the Risc OS GUI is far preferable to using Windows95. However, if there came a
time when I discovered something I needed to do that my Risc OS apps could not be
persuaded to do and a Windows app could, I'd change without hesitation.
The computer is not a tool - it's a toolbox. Software is the tools. If the tools
you need don't fit the toolbox, you buy a new toolbox.
Mark.
Iain Williamson
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:42:44 +0100, Fat German <mgre...@madge.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it
> > doesn't assume I'm an idiot.
> >
>
> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
> what more do acorn need ?
>
Now Greg, you can't have been paying attention! This chestnut comes up
every so often (from the usual suspects).
There is an element of truth in it - a bad help system is worse than none
at all. I often end up wasting my time looking through Win Help. However,
what is wrong with it is that RO would be much better with a decent help
system. Put a non-computer user on a RO3.7 system, and try to get them to do
certain tasks - with RO 2 it was easy, less so with RO3.7 - we need more help
for non-users. We forget, as we've been using them for so long.
--
To aviod being sent to my spam bin, simply remove XXX from my address
Iain Williamson --- Acorn and Netware networks
* This system will self-destrict in five minutes.
Stephen Hartley
Best internals, and Best UI and Best of all, its British.
Plus, Epoc can be licensed and developed for cheaply.
Stephen Hartley
- A Symbian employee in a personal capacity
P.S. thanks for the compliment
Paul Vigay wrote in message
<48887f74...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk>...
<chop>
>Being realistic about this, the Psion has won because Epoc32 is better than
>WinCE on EVERY count. Even techie people will know this. Epoc32 is faster,
>more efficient, nicer to use and reliable. WinCE isn't. That's why it's
>called "wince".
>
>Risc OS was outdated on a number of things. Sure, these don't tend to
>matter to the users who love it's user interface (in my view, the best in
>the world), but a number of techies would argue about it's internal
>workings etc. Epoc32 is much more powerful than Risc OS, but is still let
>down by a less efficient user interface. At least the advocates of
>pre-emptive MT can't complain though! :-)
<chop>
Adrian Jackson
> > I'm yet to see a development environment to touch Visual Studio -
> Obviously not a Java programmer...
Besides, you don't need a development environment to touch
Visual Studio - a ten foot barge pole is far more hygenic.
Adrian
Torben AEgidius Mogensen
>Perhaps you should port the RiscOS UI to Epoc then, Paul.
>Best internals, and Best UI and Best of all, its British.
>Plus, Epoc can be licensed and developed for cheaply.
Sounds reasonable. Maybe Acorn could even get Symbian to licence/buy
their font technology. I haven't seen a real-life Psion 5 for long
enough to know for sure if it has a similar system, but my guess is
that it doesn't. And, especially on the small screens available for
palmtops, a good font technology is essential.
Then a suitably large subset of the Risc OS API/GUI could be added on
top of this, possibly by modifying Risc OS modules to work on top of
the EPOC kernel instead of the Risc OS kernel. This won't be a 3-month
job, though.
The font technology and the shared printer driver are the main reasons
I like Risc OS. All the other points (pop-up menus, drag-and-drop
etc.) are useful, but not essential.
Torben Mogensen (tor...@diku.dk)
Henning Hansen
Solution: Sell the box without keyboard, and source national keyboards
locally. Nothing prevents you from using a standard Danish PC keyboard
with the Risc PC - all you need is a matching keyboard driver module.
Henning
Paul Corke
<URL:mailto:Ideal.S...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Perhaps you should port the RiscOS UI to Epoc then, Paul.
> Best internals, and Best UI and Best of all, its British.
Epoc does have it's merits - compact and ROM based. And I quite like
the way that applications are modularised into UI and Workings. In
theory, all you need to do is to replace Eikon with a RISC OS like
interface. All the standard apps would need a new UI bolted on to them,
but this isn't a major job.
The only problems I can see are
(*) Steep learning curve for developers (nice documentation :( )
(*) Font system is terrible (IMHO)
(*) GDI "leaves something to be desired"
(*) Backwards compatibility - existing RiscOS apps *won't* work.
> Plus, Epoc can be licensed and developed for cheaply.
But not as cheaply as Linux. Does Epoc support multiprocessing, btw?
<cough> Good to see you've finally sorted the STNC troubles, too...
Paul.
--
mailto:pa...@ims-bristol.co.uk http://www.ims-cdc.demon.co.uk/
William Lack
Stephen Hartley <Ideal.S...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Perhaps you should port the RiscOS UI to Epoc then, Paul.
> Best internals, and Best UI and Best of all, its British.
> Stephen Hartley
> - A Symbian employee in a personal capacity
> P.S. thanks for the compliment
> Paul Vigay wrote in message
> <48887f74...@interalpha.vogonpoetry.co.uk>...
> <chop>
> >Being realistic about this, the Psion has won because Epoc32 is better than
> >WinCE on EVERY count. Even techie people will know this. Epoc32 is faster,
> >more efficient, nicer to use and reliable. WinCE isn't. That's why it's
> >called "wince".
> >
> >Risc OS was outdated on a number of things. Sure, these don't tend to
> >matter to the users who love it's user interface (in my view, the best in
> >the world), but a number of techies would argue about it's internal
> >workings etc. Epoc32 is much more powerful than Risc OS, but is still let
> >down by a less efficient user interface. At least the advocates of
> >pre-emptive MT can't complain though! :-)
> <chop>
IF ONLY EPOC32 would run on Acorn Hardware AND the major Acorn
Applications would run on EPOC32. Dream on....
--
William Lack
---------------------
willi...@clara.net
Luke Bosman
Greg Hennessy <cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:42:44 +0100, Fat German <mgre...@madge.com>
> wrote:
> >> Idiot help
> >Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it
> >doesn't assume I'm an idiot.
> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
> what more do acorn need ?
I agree. Windows Help doesn't assume that I'm an idiot (which is nice,
because I'm not). However, it does cater for people with a very low
level of computer literacy.
I find it thoroughly frustrating to see large numbers of Risc OS apps
which don't support interactive help on the grounds that it might
encourage piracy by people who don't need the manuals.
cheers,
Luke
--
* How do I set my laser printer on stun?
Reply-to address in header ICQ# 13198442
PGP key available from http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/lukebosman/luke.txt
For Southend Utd. news and results: http://surf.to/blue.anorak
For Fulwood Methodist Church: http://welcome.to/fulwood
Luke Bosman
> Certainly I know of nobody who uses Windows who ever uses the help.
I do. It's a lot more convenient than looking through my bookshelf for
the manuals.
Luke
--
* If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
Daniel Pead
<Iai...@rednova.demon.co.uk> writes
>There is an element of truth in it - a bad help system is worse than none
>at all. I often end up wasting my time looking through Win Help.
I'd actually say that the Windows Help system is one of the more
impressive features of 'doze... and has the almost unique feature
amongst OS's that the vast majority of 'doze applications actually
bother to use it. These days, a HTML-based system would be nicer that
faffing around with weird footnotes and gibberish in Word, though.
Of course, that doesn't mean that all Windoze help files are well
designed and don't get cobbled together at the last minute... Actually,
planning a good hypertext help system is a non-trivial affair.
--
Daniel Pead
Email: d...@octpen.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.octpen.demon.co.uk/
Thomas Boroske
cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Greg Hennessy) wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:42:44 +0100, Fat German <mgre...@madge.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >> Idiot help
> >
> >Nobody reads Windows help. The nicest thing about RiscOS is that it doesn't
> >assume I'm an idiot.
> >
>
> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
> what more do acorn need ?
Err greg, there is a standard help system. For apps through the filer
plus interactive help plus StrongEd is the defacto standard for hypertext
help.
And Windoze help IS crap. Really. Absolutely. CRAP.
I've never met anyone who thought it's useful in any way.
Kind regards,
--
Thomas Boroske
Daniel Pead
<y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> writes
> Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
>> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
>> what more do acorn need ?
>
>Err greg, there is a standard help system. For apps through the filer
... Having a menu option in the *filer* which loads a text file into
!Edit is not a standard help system - especially when so many !Help
files boil down to "See !App.Docs.Readme" or "Read the Flaming Manual".
>
>plus interactive help
... great for "Tool Tips" hints, but not really on-line documentation -
and again, far from universally used (I spent some time putting pretty
complete interactive help into Coypu - but I wonder if anybody ever read
it...)
>plus StrongEd is the defacto standard for hypertext
>help.
I have nothing to say against StrongHelp but (apart from C libraries and
programmers' references) it's still hardly universal. Acorn should have
adopted something like it ages ago. Instead they shaft Emerald's
attempt to produce a programmer's reference CD by insisting that it is
an exact copy of the paper version (including acres of screen-hogging
white space).
>
>And Windoze help IS crap. Really. Absolutely. CRAP.
>I've never met anyone who thought it's useful in any way.
What a far-reaching and well argued critique.
Presumably, since most PC developer tools and many applications don't
have manuals and rely entirely on on-line help, your acquaintances
aren't exactly PC literate. PS: Windows 2.0 was superseded a couple of
years ago - it might be worth another look.
Which exactly is the "crap" bit? The full hypertext facilities? The
choice of keyword or full-text searches? The "back" button? Bookmarks?
The printing facilities? The choice of authoring tools (from $10
shareware Word macros to $$$$ integrated documetation/help systems) or
just the fact that its so grotty that 99% of Windows applications
actually bother to use it...
Of course, it has far more bugs and features than the Acorn !Help
system, but then dumping a plain text file into an editor doesn't quite
offer the same scope for screw-ups.
I can't think of funny things for the PC user and the Mac user in the
sinking boat to say, but I'm sure the Acorn Evangelist would be
enumerating the health benefits of swimming and explaining how crucial
well-fed sharks were to the ecology.
Jeremy Young
<URL:mailto:d...@octpen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <995718b48%y000...@tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske
> <y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> writes
> >And Windoze help IS crap. Really. Absolutely. CRAP.
> >I've never met anyone who thought it's useful in any way.
>
> What a far-reaching and well argued critique.
>
> Presumably, since most PC developer tools and many applications don't
> have manuals and rely entirely on on-line help, your acquaintances
> aren't exactly PC literate. PS: Windows 2.0 was superseded a couple of
> years ago - it might be worth another look.
A look's not enough. You need to use it for a few weeks to
realise just how bad it is.
>
> Which exactly is the "crap" bit?
Expecting people to read an on-screen manual in horrible
Windows fonts on a glaring white backdrop when their eyes
are already strained from peering all morning at horrible
Windows fonts in Windows DTP document. Expecting
people to click there way through the help pages when their
mouse finger is already sore from repeatedly opening those
stupid Windows menus. Taking up screen space, which is
always at a premium with Windows, and obscuring the document
being worked on. Wasting disc space and resources with
something that can more usefully be presented in a manual.
The full hypertext facilities? The
> choice of keyword or full-text searches? The "back" button? Bookmarks?
> The printing facilities?
Right, so instead of providing a manual they make you print
it off yourself. Nice.
>The choice of authoring tools (from $10
> shareware Word macros to $$$$ integrated documetation/help systems) or
> just the fact that its so grotty that 99% of Windows applications
> actually bother to use it...
Yes, but Windows is bought by people who insist on dancing
paperclips.
>
> I can't think of funny things for the PC user and the Mac user in the
> sinking boat to say,
They'd be saying "click on Help and see if it says how you
inflate these lifejackets."
but I'm sure the Acorn Evangelist would be
> enumerating the health benefits of swimming and explaining how crucial
> well-fed sharks were to the ecology.
No, the Acorn Evangelists would be realising that they liked
the colour of the boat after all. And the name.
Describing Bill Gates as a well-fed shark seems a bit nearer
the mark, though.
Jeremy
Thomas Boroske
Daniel Pead <d...@octpen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <995718b48%y000...@tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske
> <y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> writes
> > Thats the first time I have seen anyone attempt to turn the lack of a
> >> standardised help system in an advantage. With advocates like this
> >> what more do acorn need ?
> >
> >Err greg, there is a standard help system. For apps through the filer
>
> ... Having a menu option in the *filer* which loads a text file into
> !Edit is not a standard help system - especially when so many !Help
> files boil down to "See !App.Docs.Readme" or "Read the Flaming Manual".
Err, the file isn't loaded but run - that means you're not limited
to textfiles. In fact, Newsbase for example pops up the very nice
StrongHelp if you click help over it's icon.
> >plus interactive help
>
> ... great for "Tool Tips" hints, but not really on-line documentation -
> and again, far from universally used (I spent some time putting pretty
> complete interactive help into Coypu - but I wonder if anybody ever read
> it...)
Probably not, because it isn't implemented very nicely. Something
like bubblehelp is really needed, having that help window down
in the corner of the screen sucks.
> >And Windoze help IS crap. Really. Absolutely. CRAP.
> >I've never met anyone who thought it's useful in any way.
>
> What a far-reaching and well argued critique.
Well :-) Thinking twice, what I really mean here is the
way most apps limit their help to thousands of snippets
of context-sensitive help. There's simply no complete
help available like you would expect in a printed manual -
you know, you've got some problem with printing so you
look in the printing manual. If what you want to do is described
there then fine, if not then you can't do it. With context
sensitive help alone and searching you're pretty much stuffed
in this respect.
> Which exactly is the "crap" bit? The full hypertext facilities? The
> choice of keyword or full-text searches? The "back" button? Bookmarks?
> The printing facilities? The choice of authoring tools (from $10
> shareware Word macros to $$$$ integrated documetation/help systems) or
> just the fact that its so grotty that 99% of Windows applications
> actually bother to use it...
What is crap that it all seems to be lots of little "how to achieve
this or that" pages that take you through every single mouseclick,
but there doesn't seem to be a real manual that teaches you how
to use the application as a whole.
Greg Hennessy
<jer...@arcola.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>A look's not enough. You need to use it for a few weeks to
>realise just how bad it is.
>
Oh I see, WTF do you think these windows applications have been so
successful ? Joe User can be quitely confident that no matter where he
is in the application. Hitting F1 will more than likely bring up nice
context dependent help.
>
>>
>> Which exactly is the "crap" bit?
>
>Expecting people to read an on-screen manual in horrible
>Windows fonts on a glaring white backdrop when their eyes
>are already strained from peering all morning at horrible
>Windows fonts in Windows DTP document.
Pardon ? Not everyone uses DTP applications. Having a full Java class
ref at the touch of an F1 key is a lot more useful than thumbing
through a book.
> Expecting
>people to click there way through the help pages when their
>mouse finger is already sore from repeatedly opening those
>stupid Windows menus. Taking up screen space, which is
>always at a premium with Windows, and obscuring the document
>being worked on.
JHC ! Back to that old chestnut. Methinks you need to loosen the
toggles on your anorak.
> Wasting disc space and resources with
>something that can more usefully be presented in a manual.
>
FFS ! A meg of diskspace now costs about 20-30 pence !!!!
greg
Jeremy Young
<URL:mailto:cmk...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
> Oh I see, WTF do you think these windows applications have been so
> successful ? Joe User can be quitely confident that no matter where he
> is in the application. Hitting F1 will more than likely bring up nice
> context dependent help.
On my Windows computer at work I can be quietly confident
that no matter where I am in application, hitting F1 will
always bring up an error message saying that Winhelp or
whatever it's called isn't working. In contrast, on my
A5000 here at home I can be quietly confident that no matter
where I am in an application hitting Alt-F1 will more than
likely bring up nice context-dependent help.
Now which do you think I prefer?
>
> Pardon ? Not everyone uses DTP applications. Having a full Java class
> ref at the touch of an F1 key is a lot more useful than thumbing
> through a book.
Everyone where I work uses DTP applications, even the bloke
with the ponytail who does the java stuff.
>
> > Expecting
> >people to click there way through the help pages when their
> >mouse finger is already sore from repeatedly opening those
> >stupid Windows menus. Taking up screen space, which is
> >always at a premium with Windows, and obscuring the document
> >being worked on.
>
> JHC ! Back to that old chestnut. Methinks you need to loosen the
> toggles on your anorak.
I don't know what you mean by 'old chestnut'. Can you explain?
>
> > Wasting disc space and resources with
> >something that can more usefully be presented in a manual.
> >
>
> FFS ! A meg of diskspace now costs about 20-30 pence !!!!
So when you suddenly run out of disc space you just
nip down to the shop and buy an extra meg or two do you?
Be sensible.
Jeremy
Roger Lynn
> In article <995718b48%y000...@tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske
> <y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> writes
> >And Windoze help IS crap. Really. Absolutely. CRAP.
> >I've never met anyone who thought it's useful in any way.
>
> What a far-reaching and well argued critique.
But it *is* crap!
I've spent absolutely ages going round and round and round in circles
trying to get the information I want out of the Windows 95/3.1 help
system. It's completely useless! I've never managed to get any useful
information out of it. All it ever tells me is things I already know.
I can never find the things I want in the index.
I'd far rather have a paper manual that actually explained properly all
the features and tools, what they do and how to use them. It would be
much easier to use and read and wouldn't use up valuable screen real
estate, plus you would be able to read it in bed! Online help should be
a supplement not a replacement for the paper documentation.
The Windows help system is just one of the many things that if I use
Windows for any length of time eventually drives me nuts. There is no
way I would ever have Windows as the OS of choice on my home computer.
I want a Phoebe/Phoenix so that I can continue to use RISC OS for as
long as possible, even if that is the end of the line.
Roger
Gary Jones
<URL:mailto:ted...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant221035209q#H...@bohunt.demon.co.uk>, Paul Vigay
> <pvi...@bohunt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > In article <ant21100...@cams.nwnet.co.uk>, Gary Jones
> > <URL:mailto:ga...@camsSPAMOFF.nwnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Hmmm... what about Trevor Bayliss, the British inventor who
> > > invented a clockwork radio. Is that eccentic enough?
> >
> > Hey! What with the low power consumption, how about a wind-up StrongArm
> > computer? :-)
>
> Certainly make the mind boggle if it was a laptop. Surely that would make
> a very attractive machine worldwide.
>
for the display and drives. A nice thought though. :)
Gary
--
Gary Jones mailto:ga...@cams.nwnet.co.uk
STILL using the Acorn Risc PC 700