The Invisibility of the Ringwraiths
Janez Brank
passage in the LotR where Merry and Eowyn kill the Nazgul, and the following
sentence caught my attention: "He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes
glittered."
I always thought that the Ringwraiths were invisible -- not their horses,
garments, armor, weapons, etc., but their bodies. This is supported by such
scenes as we see at the end of "The Siege of Gondor": "The Black Rider flung
back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head
visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled
shoulders vast and dark." [The fires mentioned here refer, I suppose, to
the fires of the battlefield ("Busy as ants hurrying orcs were digging,
digging lines of deep trenches in a huge ring, just out of bowshot from the
walls; and as the trenches were made each was filled with fire, though how
it was kindled or fed, by art or devilry, none could see."), not to the
glittering of his eyes.]
So, the question now is: were the Nazgul totally invisible? Were their eyes
still visible? Only sometimes, perhaps? If not, how could the Witch-King's
eyes glitter if they were invisible? Is there something I'm missing?
I'm really curious about this. :)
Best regards,
Janez Brank.
!**?#!#$
> ) glittered."
In boring reality, eyes do not shine, they only reflect. Not Gollum's, nor
creatures on the elf-path through Myrkwood. But in Tolkien's world, eyes
can generate light.
Actually I always thought the red flames were where the body should have been.
--
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the flare of crimson fades to gray. | smj...@my-dejanews.com
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Paganini <Nathan E. Banks>
whose eyes glow?
--
Annon
Et Annonello, nólë.
Loznik
<paga...@madisontelco.com> oversimplified thus:
> Aren't there some of those wierd fish in the caves that never see light
>whose eyes glow?
>
Usually, and IIRC, this is caused by phosphorescent patches near the
eyes, not actually in or on them.
Loznik {:-)>
All the lies, all the truth,
All the things that I offer you.
Bob Bayse
D&D players have been arguing the rules of invisibility for 25 years. I don't
think they've come up with simple rules that cover all the unusual what-if cases.
Every DM will have thier own interpretation on it. It's all make-believe, so any
interpretation is valid for their own world. Tolkien waste too much time (IMO
-- did he talk about it in any of the "Letters"?) worrying about the rules of
invisibility or making them scientifically consistent.
Remember that the One did not exactly make the wearer invisible, it brought
him into some other plane of existence (partially). The Nazgul lived on this plane
and became visible to the ring-wearer. It should still be noted that only the
Nazgul's
bodies were invisible, but their clothes, etc., were visible.
If you threw a cloak over Frodo after he put the One on, would the cloak
remain visible? (Probably, IMO) If so, then the situation of the Nazgul is
consistent
with these rules. This would also explain the visibility of another being who is in
contact with a ring-wearer, but I have no trouble accepting this situation in any
case.
IMO: The One works on one being, not on anyone else, even if they're all holding
hands when the One is put on. The rules would be easier to understand as
consistent if only the wearer's body -- organic matter -- went invisible and not the
personal effects, but that's clearly not what happens.
I can understand magical lights shining through this inter-(intra-?)plane state.
They are covered normally with sheaths, cloaks, bodies (Bilbo in the tunnel),
whatever, that are in the same plane. If they don't shine in the plane they're on,
they don't shine through to another plane.
Good thoughts, Stephen.
Stephen Souter wrote:
> In article
> <smjames-0609...@ppp-206-170-2-194.sntc01.pacbell.net>,
> smj...@my-dejanews.com (!**?#!#$) wrote:
>
> > > ) sentence caught my attention: "He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes
> > > ) glittered."
> >
> > In boring reality, eyes do not shine, they only reflect. Not Gollum's, nor
> > creatures on the elf-path through Myrkwood. But in Tolkien's world, eyes
> > can generate light.
> >
> > Actually I always thought the red flames were where the body should have been.
>
> Actually, couldn't that "and his eyes glittered" be interpreted as meaning
> they glittered by *reflected* light?
>
> Mind you, that brings us right back to the question posted by the original
> poster.
>
> But then invisibility in Tolkien's word is peculiar.
>
> Consider Sting. When in _The Hobbit_ Bilbo picks up a selection of stones
> to fling at the Mirkwood spiders ("While he was picking up stones..."),
> the spiders can't see the ones he's carrying, even though he must have
> been carrying a fair number when he started throwing them at them. Yet
> despite this, the spiders can later see Sting when Bilbo brandishes it at
> them even though they (still) can't see Bilbo himself. ("The spiders saw
> the sword, though I don't suppose they knew what it was...")
>
> There's a similar incident in _Unfinished Tales_. Isildur puts on the Ring
> to escape the Orcs at the battle of the Gladden Fields. "But the
> Elendilmir of the West could not be quenched, and suddenly it blazed forth
> red and wrathful as a burning star." Not until Isildur "drawing a hood
> over his head, vanished into the night" does the Elendilmir vanish as
> well.
>
> In other words, the Ring by itself could not prevent the Elendilmir from
> being seen, yet an (invisible) hood drawn over the elvish stone could!
>
> Strangely, there is actually a consistency in this. Although the spiders
> could see Sting when drawn, they could (apparently) *not* see it so long
> as it was in its (invisible) scabbard!
>
> Do we see Sting & the Elendilmir (but not Bilbo's stones) because of the
> former two's Elvish powers?
>
> Well...maybe. But why then can Sam still see Gollum in the Chambers of
> Fire when the latter attacks Frodo? ("Gollum on the edge of the abyss was
> fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe.") If Gollum was grappling
> with Frodo should not Gollum *himself* have become as invisible as the
> other things Frodo had (so to speak) clinging (or otherwise attached) to
> himself or his clothes? An elvish brooch, for instance.
>
> (Just to confuse matters further there's also the thought which comes into
> the mind of (an invisible) Sam in _The Two Towers_ as he goes charging after
> Gorbag & Shagrat when they & their Orcs come upon Frodo above Cirith
> Ungol: "They'll see the flame of the sword, as soon as I draw it..." Do we
> interpret this to mean that Sam thinks the Orcs would see the sword itself
> or just the light it makes in the presence of their kind? In which case
> what about some other light source the bearer happened to be carrying, be
> it the magical Phial of Galadriel or a non-magical lantern?)
>
> One cannot help feeling that there is a degree of discrimination here on
> the part of the Tolkien's rings. The bearer can be holding stones, or be wearing
> clothing or be bearing a sword in a scabbard, and these will all be
> invisible. Yet if someone grabs hold of the bearer (as distinct,
> presumably, from the bearer grabbing hold of them) they do not turn
> invisible also.
>
> More, putting the Ring on a chain round your neck doesn't make you
> invisible, but putting it on your finger does--so long as that finger
> stays attached to you! (When Gollum attacks Frodo & bites off his finger,
> it isn't just Frodo who suddenly becomes visible: "Gollum, dancing like a
> mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle."
> One cannot help but wonder what would have happened had the wonders of
> microsurgery been available in Frodo's day, assuming Sam had been able to
> retrieve it in time from Gollum & have it preserved in ice! If the
> surgeons had been able to attach the finger back on with the Ring still on
> it, would Frodo have at once turned invisible?)
>
> Given that the One Ring was itself invisible when its bearer was, it all
> suggests what might be termed degrees of "invisi-bility" between the
> classes of rings. That is, between what they will (or can) make invisible
> and what they will (or can) not: with the Three at one end of the scale
> and the One Ring and (presumably) the Nine somewhere at the other. The
> Three are limited to making themselves invisible. Or at least in a sense
> "invisible"; for Frodo saw the ring on Galadriel's finger whereas Sam did
> not.
>
> That being the case, maybe it's not so strange at all that Merry & Eowyn
> could see the eyes of the Ringwraith glitter. :)
>
> --
> Stephen Souter
> s.so...@edfac.usyd.edu.au
> http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/
Stephen Souter
Steuard Jensen
> Actually, couldn't that "and his eyes glittered" be interpreted as
> meaning they glittered by *reflected* light?
> But then invisibility in Tolkien's word is peculiar.
[Snip many examples, in which various things are visible or not.]
> In which case what about some other light source the bearer happened
> to be carrying, be it the magical Phial of Galadriel or a
> non-magical lantern?)
As far as I can tell from the books (and these examples in
particular), the Ring only influences light which passes through a
"skin" around its wearer, and in fact, only light which first hits the
_outside edge_ of that "skin."
In more detail, light running into the "skin" from the outside simply
passes along without being affected by anything inside (or at least,
not much; more on this later). Thus, we can see right through the
wearer, as if he were not there. On the other hand, light which runs
into the "skin" from the inside is not affected. Hence, light sources
borne by the wearer (magical or not) are visible on the outside to
precisely the extent that they would be if the Ring were not involved
at all.
This is really quite a good idea, when it comes right down to it.
Among other things, heat can be emitted as (infrared) light, and it
would be very bad for the Rings to interfere with their wearers'
abilities to regulate their body temperatures. Also, it means that
the Ring only needs to "worry about" a one sided, two dimensional
surface, rather than a full three dimensional volume, which has got to
make its job much easier.
Of course, the Ring's ability to stop influences on incoming light is
clearly not perfect: Bilbo's shadow in _The Hobbit_ is testament to
that. However, I don't think we can tell if this "flaw" was
intentional or not.
Finally, (but briefly, as I need to go), I think that the Ring depends
on a sentient being wearing it to be activated (so Frodo's finger
alone didn't cut it). Once the Ring was activated, the wearer would
have some degree of personal control over its operation. For the weak
and/or untrained, that would consist only of a subconscious list of
what counted as "carried" and what did not. For the strong, the
invisibility could be easily limited, as Galadriel confined
invisibility to her Ring alone.
Steuard Jensen
Megan Westerfield
It is my belief that they could select when they were invisible.
They would have perhaps preferred invisibility when tracking/hunting,
but maybe they liked drama and would manifest physically when they
so desired.
I remember the passage quoted, and that had never occured to
me before. I think it's a valid and important question.
I, as well, am curious.
*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>spoon<><><><><><><><><>
"Oh nobly born, let not thy mind be distracted. "
_The_Tibetan_Book_of_the_Dead_
Megan Westerfield
> Megan Westerfield wrote in message ...
> >
> >It is my belief that they could select when they were invisible.
> >
> >They would have perhaps preferred invisibility when tracking/hunting,
> >but maybe they liked drama and would manifest physically when they
> >so desired.
> Of course they liked drama! In fact, after the War of the Ring they took
> night jobs as minimum wage Boogie Men. They crept, invisible, into the
> rooms of little kids at night. Just as their invisible head hung over the
> child's innocent face, they would make their eyes glow bright red and then
> shout, "BOO!!!" The hapless victim would then cry out for their parents but
> as soon as they got there, they would, of course vanish. After the parents
> left, they would make themselves eerily translucent and then creep into the
> closet and shutting the door.
*eyes wide with naivete and wonder* they did?
Graham Lockwood
>
>It is my belief that they could select when they were invisible.
>
>They would have perhaps preferred invisibility when tracking/hunting,
>but maybe they liked drama and would manifest physically when they
>so desired.
Of course they liked drama! In fact, after the War of the Ring they took
night jobs as minimum wage Boogie Men. They crept, invisible, into the
rooms of little kids at night. Just as their invisible head hung over the
child's innocent face, they would make their eyes glow bright red and then
shout, "BOO!!!" The hapless victim would then cry out for their parents but
as soon as they got there, they would, of course vanish. After the parents
left, they would make themselves eerily translucent and then creep into the
closet and shutting the door.
||// // - ------===**O**===------- - || //
|// // Graham Lockwood ||//
(/ // gsl...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu |//
||// (/)
|// Quantum Mechanics //|
(/ The dreams stuff is made of //||
|| - -------====**O**====------- - // ||
Graham Lockwood
>
>> >
>> >It is my belief that they could select when they were invisible.
>> >
>> >They would have perhaps preferred invisibility when tracking/hunting,
>> >but maybe they liked drama and would manifest physically when they
>> >so desired.
>
>
>> Of course they liked drama! In fact, after the War of the Ring they took
>> night jobs as minimum wage Boogie Men. They crept, invisible, into the
>> rooms of little kids at night. Just as their invisible head hung over
the
>> child's innocent face, they would make their eyes glow bright red and
then
>> shout, "BOO!!!" The hapless victim would then cry out for their parents
but
>> as soon as they got there, they would, of course vanish. After the
parents
>> left, they would make themselves eerily translucent and then creep into
the
>> closet and shutting the door.
>
>
>*Rabbyt the Elf-Queen
Well, it's nice to see that someone believes me. I know my parents never
did.
Megan Westerfield
> Well, it's nice to see that someone believes me. I know my parents never
> did.
that's a damn shame, my dear, a damn shame....*pats Graham on top of his
head*