FIBS bug? - doubling in the Crawford game
David A Shaffer
I was 2-0 up in a 3 point match. I'm waiting for my opponent to move and
fiddle with the doubling cube, knowing it won't have any effect because it's
the Crawford game. To my surprise, my opponent finished his move, the
double went through and he accepted it. Very kindly, he didn't double me
back. Is this a bug in FIBS? Surely it shouldn't let you double during the
Crawford game.
Jacques Torrione
David A Shaffer a écrit dans le message ...
Hello there
this look like a bug but I think it isn't.
I'm not 100% sure of what I will say so I'm waiting for anothers reply, but
I think that it is forbidden for the TRAILER to double in the crawford
game. NOT for the LEADER. Even if this situatuion is a non sense... Even
more. I think that the trailer can redouble to 4, after the leader's initial
double.
So fibs seems to apply the correct rule.
Jacques Torrione
Rodrigo Andrade
Actually, no. NONE of the players can double during the Crawford game. This
bug, though, has happened to me in the past, I was winning 2-1 on a
3-pointer and I doubled... my opponent went like "What should I do now???
Take it??" I didn't really understand the Crawford thing by that time, so I
thought it was okay to double. Now though, I see it was a major bug, Since
FIBS doesn't give the option of NOT using the Crawford rule.
Rodrigo
Kevin Dickover
On 9 May 1998 19:40:58 GMT, "Rodrigo Andrade"
<candrade@_R_E_M_O_V_E_wt.net> wrote:
type "help crawford" the next time you log on to FIBS. The Crawford
rule can be toggled on or off (and, as another poster mentioned a week
or two ago, it can even be toggled off during a match-that might be a
bug but considering the fact that FIBS is without a doubt the finest
place in the whole of the internet and you have to work to cause this
"bug" I give it little attention at best)
It might be wise if you printed out or downloaded the FIBS help file,
you would be less likely to caught out.
Solo Deo Favente,
Kevin Dickover
<)))><
Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
On 09-mei-98 02:38:37, David A Shaffer wrote:
DAS> I was 2-0 up in a 3 point match. I'm waiting for my opponent to move
DAS> and fiddle with the doubling cube, knowing it won't have any effect
DAS> because it's the Crawford game. To my surprise, my opponent finished
DAS> his move, the double went through and he accepted it. Very kindly, he
DAS> didn't double me back. Is this a bug in FIBS? Surely it shouldn't let
DAS> you double during the Crawford game.
Yes, this looks like a bug which, as far as I can see, has to do with
some faulty synchronisation.
Normally, FIBS will automatically roll for you during the Crawford game.
FIBS receives the opponents move(1), processes the opponents move(2),
draws the (new) board(3), *then* sees it's Crawford and rolls for
you(4).
If you manage to double after step 1 and before step 4, the double is
accepted (by FIBS, that is!).
You can usually achieve this quite easily by constantly trying to
double when it's your opponent's move and just hope one of your doubles
will get through at the "right" time.
The story of another poster here about doubling as the TRAILER didn't
work for me however; I then got a (never seen before!) message about
being unable to double in the Crawford game.
--
Zorba/Robert-Jan
Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
On 09-mei-98 20:40:58, Rodrigo Andrade wrote:
RA> Since FIBS doesn't give the option of NOT using the Crawford rule.
Toggle crawford
Yes, it's that easy.
--
Zorba/Robert-Jan
Patti Beadles
I have heard two different interpretations of the Crawford rule, both
of which I've seen implemented at various tournaments, neither of
which is necessarily the One True Crawford Rule.
The first is that the cube is dead during the Crawford game.
The second is that the trailer may not double during the Crawford
game.
As you have noticed, FIBS implements the second. If the leader
accidentally doubles, though, the trailer is not allowed to redouble.
So no, it's not a bug. And it's definitely not (as someone suggested)
a timing problem.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles | Not just your average
pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com | degenerate gambling adrenaline
http://www.gammon.com/ | junkie software geek leatherbyke
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | nethead biker.
Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
On 10-mei-98 16:36:29, Patti Beadles wrote:
PB> As you have noticed, FIBS implements the second. If the leader
PB> accidentally doubles, though, the trailer is not allowed to redouble.
PB> So no, it's not a bug. And it's definitely not (as someone suggested)
PB> a timing problem.
Have you tested what I described? You normally can't double on FIBS
during Crawford, even when trailing.
Only my "special" method works, sure looks like a bug to me.
--
Zorba/Robert-Jan
Chuck Bower
In article <pattibEs...@netcom.com>,
Patti Beadles <pat...@netcom.com> wrote:
>I have heard two different interpretations of the Crawford rule, both
>of which I've seen implemented at various tournaments, neither of
>which is necessarily the One True Crawford Rule.
>
>The first is that the cube is dead during the Crawford game.
>
>The second is that the trailer may not double during the Crawford
>game.
>
>As you have noticed, FIBS implements the second. If the leader
>accidentally doubles, though, the trailer is not allowed to redouble.
>So no, it's not a bug. And it's definitely not (as someone suggested)
>a timing problem.
There is a set of rules (which can be found on the Chicago Point
web page) titled "U.S. Backgammon Tournament Rules & Procedures, March
1990". Rule 5.5 says:
CRAWFORD RULE. The 'Crawford Rule' will apply to all matches.
When a player reaches match point (e.g., 8 points in a 9 point match),
the doubling cube will be out of play for one game....
I don't believe I've played in a tournament this decade where these
rules were not used. Unfortunately I've not gotten to nearly enough
tournaments, and only one West of the Mississippi in that time period.
Thus maybe there are tournaments on this continent where these rules
are not used. I'm wondering what set of rules they use, though. Europe
(and other places) may well use different rules. Ditto the above wonder.
I think this U.S BG rule clearly supports Patti's first listing of
interpretation. FIBS was written by a European (Andreas Schneider if
my poor memory isn't failing me) so maybe he was using a different set
of rules.
I can give another argument (though primarily historical). From
"The Backgammon Book" by Oswald Jacoby and John R. Crawford (Viking
Press, 1970):
At the Bahamas and Las Vegas tournaments (the early World Championships
before being permanently moved to Monte Carlo in the late 70's)... John
Crawford (co-author)... devised a rule providing that once a player gets
within one point of victory, there can be no double in the first game
after that; however, doubling would be allowed in the match from then on.
Note that the comments in parentheses in the above quote are mine.
There is soon to be convened a committee to review (and modify,
if determined necessary) the 1990 U.S. BG Rules. Butch Meese has
already asked for (and posted the resulting) recommendations for changes.
Although Butch has now passed on this info (and is no longer involved
in the review) I think (hope) that it is not too late to make further
suggestions. I'm certainly going to try to get an audience myself.
Chuck
bo...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
c_ray on FIBS
Don Woods
I haven't tried your special method, and I suspect it actually depends
somewhat on what user interface you're using (e.g., FIBS/W or something,
or the straight character-based commands). But there's a much easier
way: toggle double. The leader is allowed to do that, and from then on
FIBS will wait before rolling for the leader. The trailer I think may
try "toggle double" and isn't told anything's wrong, but still isn't
given a chance to double.
The reason I found this out is, even when I'm not planning to double,
I sometimes like to toggle doubling on so that I have a chance to
"kibitz" before rolling, to pray for a good roll. :-) So I think it's
a small benefit to the leader in the Crawford game: the leader can
toggle double in order to get a chance to pray to the dice gods before
rolling, while the trailer is forced to go ahead and roll. :-) :-)
-- Don (Puck on FIBS)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-- Don Woods (d...@clari.net) ClariNet provides on-line news.
-- http://www.clari.net/~don I provide personal opinions.
--
Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
On 11-mei-98 09:15:46, Don Woods wrote:
DW> Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl> writes:
>> On 10-mei-98 16:36:29, Patti Beadles wrote:
>> PB> As you have noticed, FIBS implements the second. If the leader
>> PB> accidentally doubles, though, the trailer is not allowed to redouble.
>> PB> So no, it's not a bug. And it's definitely not (as someone suggested)
>> PB> a timing problem.
>>
>> Have you tested what I described? You normally can't double on FIBS
>> during Crawford, even when trailing.
Oops an error!................^^^^^^^^
I meant "even when leading".
>> Only my "special" method works, sure looks like a bug to me.
DW> I haven't tried your special method, and I suspect it actually depends
DW> somewhat on what user interface you're using (e.g., FIBS/W or something,
DW> or the straight character-based commands).
I just use plain telnet.
DW> But there's a much easier
DW> way: toggle double. The leader is allowed to do that, and from then on
DW> FIBS will wait before rolling for the leader.
Weird. It doesn't here! I can "toggle double" but FIBS still keeps
rolling automatically!
DW> The trailer I think may
DW> try "toggle double" and isn't told anything's wrong, but still isn't
DW> given a chance to double.
Well the same happens for me when I'm *leading*...
The only difference I spot is that with my "method" I *can* double as a
leader; if I try the same when trailing FIBS says: "**You can't double
during the Crawford game".
Something that seems slightly related: if FIBS rolls automatically then
sometimes it "rolls", even when the game (or match even!) is OVER. You
then get a "**it's not your turn to roll the dice" message or "**you're
not playing"...
Looks like FIBS has a couple of interesting things hidden inside :-)
(For those who don't know already: try a few "waitfor xxx" commands or
"watch yournickname"...:-)
--
Zorba/Robert-Jan
Patti Beadles
In article <479.7434T...@xs4all.nl>,
Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Have you tested what I described? You normally can't double on FIBS
>during Crawford, even when trailing.
>Only my "special" method works, sure looks like a bug to me.
(You do, of course, mean leading.)
Actually, that's false. Your "special" method is nothing special.
You can double during the Crawford game when you're leading, but you
have to "toggle double" first.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com |
http://www.gammon.com/ | If it wasn't for the last minute
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | I'd never get anything done!
Patti Beadles
I was at a large backgammon tournament in the US a couple of years
ago, and was watching a match between Nack Ballard and (I think) Kent
Goulding. During the Crawford game, Nack very clearly paused several
times to consider doubling, although he never actually did so.
Later, Kent said that if Nack had doubled, he would have called the
tournament director for a ruling. When asked about it, the director
essentially said, "If Nack Ballard was dumb enough to double when he
was ahead at Crawford, I'd have to let the double stand."
Merely a data point.
Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
On 13-mei-98 00:50:52, Patti Beadles wrote:
PB> In article <479.7434T...@xs4all.nl>,
PB> Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>Have you tested what I described? You normally can't double on FIBS
>>during Crawford, even when trailing.
>>Only my "special" method works, sure looks like a bug to me.
PB> (You do, of course, mean leading.)
Yes, that was what I meant...and that was only the first stupid
mistake...
PB> Actually, that's false. Your "special" method is nothing special.
PB> You can double during the Crawford game when you're leading, but you
PB> have to "toggle double" first.
I wonder how this OBVIOUS method didn't appear to me! I'm sorry, I
thought I tested this but probably got things messed up with "toggle
crawford" (leader and trailer) on which some discussion was going on. I
should get some more sleep...B-/
Well all things considered FIBS handling of doubling and Crawford seems
okay then, maybe it would be good to only allow a "toggle crawford" when
you're not playing?
--
Zorba/Robert-Jan