Charles Manson
publicr...@scientology.org
There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
Scientology. Here are the facts:
Charles Manson never took "church classes" when he was in prison.
No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
A 1976 affidavit by Lanier A. Ramer, who was incarcerated in the same
prison where Manson was incarcerated, describes how Mr. Ramer
worked with fellow prisoners and how his work with them consisted of some
exposure to practices then current in Scientology. This work was
"originated and operated strictly by [Mr. Ramer] and was not financed,
assisted, approved, sponsored, or connected in any way to any Church
of Scientology...."
Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology was involved in
these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
practicing member of the Church of Scientology at the time of the
aforementioned murders."
Brandi
publicr...@scientology.org
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Jim Wissick
On Wed, 06 May 1998 00:02:47 -0600, publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
>Charles Manson never took "church classes" when he was in prison.
>No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
How about any classes offered by the <spit> church or it's front groups?
>
>Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
>Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
>murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
>that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
>evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology was involved in
>these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
>practicing member of the Church of Scientology at the time of the
>aforementioned murders."
>
Just because no evidance was found does not mean that none exists.
Perhaps you could produce a writen statement from Manson stateing he took no
classes??
To reply to this message, remove SPAMBLOCK from
the email address.
http://home.pacbell.net/jwissick/jwissick.txt for my
public PGP key.
Tilman Hausherr
In <6ioqtn$249$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, publicr...@scientology.org
wrote:
>There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
>Scientology. Here are the facts:
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: an12...@anon.penet.fi
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]
For whomever was asking about Scientology & Helter Skelter:
I dug out my copy of Bugliosi's book "Helter Skelter."
(for the uninitiated, Vincent Bugliosi is the guy
who prosecuted the Manson gang after the
Tate-Labianca murders in Los Angeles in 1969;
"Helter Skelter", a sort of code-word used by the
gang, is the title of a book he wrote with Curt
Gentry about the case later.
I give it my HIGHEST RECOMMENDATION to anyone interested in
courtroom drama and/or strategy, cults, or 60s sociology.
There's also movie, by the same name, but I haven't seen it.).
Here's most of what "the Bug" (as the Mansonites called
him) says about Scientology or Hubbard:
All references are from _Helter_Skelter_, by
Vincent Bugliosi with Curt Gentry, copyright 1974,
W.W. Norton & Company Limited, New York (hardcover
edition). Single quotation marks denote quotations
within the book. All errors are mine unless
otherwise noted with a [sic].
Upon being arrested in 1961, "Manson gave as his claimed
religion `Scientologist,' stating that he `has never
settled upon a religious formula for his beliefs and is
presently seeking an answer to his question in the new
mental health cult known as Scientology.' "Scientology, an
outgrowth of science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard's
Dianetics, was just coming into vogue at this time.
Manson's teacher, i.e. `auditor', was another convice,
Lanier Rayner. Manson would later claim that while in
prison he achieved Scientology's highest level, `beta-
clear'.
"Although Manson remained interested in Scientology much
longer than he did in any other subject except music, it
appears that...he stuck with it only as long as his
enthusiasm lasted, then dropped it, extracting and
retaining a number of phrases (`auditioning' [sic], 'cease
to exist', 'coming to Now') and some concepts (karma,
reincarnation, etc.) which, perhaps fittingly, Scientology
had borrowed in the first place." (pp. 144-145)
By August of 1966, with little other explanation than his
constant inability to stick with anything, a pre-release
prison report mentions that "Manson had no further
interest in academic or vocational training; that he was
no longer an advocate of Scientology..." (p. 146)
Charlie was more interested in a dark offshoot of a former
Scientologist; a satanic cult: "The Process, also known
as the Church of the Final Judgement... a very strange
cult. Led by one Robert DeGrimston, t/n [true name]
Robert Moore - who like Manson, was an ex-Scientologist --
its members worshipped both Satan and Christ..." (p. 224)
An almost amusing vignette came from Paul "Tex" Watkins
(an incredibly brutal and cold-blooded murderer) when
Bugliosi interviewed him about Manson's philosophy:
"...Manson had told him that while he was in prison he had
studied Scientology, becoming a "theta" which Manson
defined as being "clear". Watkins said that in the summer
of 1968 he and Charlie had dropped into a Church of
Scientology in downtown Los Angeles, and Manson asked the
receptionist, "What do you do after `clear'?" When she was
unable to tell him anything he hadn't already done, Manson
walked out." (p. 237)
Finally, Bugliosi sums up Manson's relationship with Scientology:
"I knew...that Manson was an eclectic, a borrower of
ideas. I knew too, both from his prison records and
from my conversations with him, that Manson's
involvement with Scientology had been more than a
passing fad. Manson told me, as he had Paul Watkins,
that he had reached the highest stage, `beta clear',
and no longer had any connection with or need for
Scientology. I was inclined to accept at least the
latter portion of his claim.
In my rather extensive investigation, I found no evidence
of any kind that Manson was involved with Scientology
after his release from prison in 1967.
[Footnote inserted in text: One of Manson's chief
disciples, Bruce Davis, was very closely involved
with Scientology for a time, working in its London
headquarters from about November or December of
1968 to April of 1969. According to a Scientology
spokesman, Davis was kicked out of the organization
for his drug use. He returned to the Manson
family...in time to participate in the Hinman and
Shea slayings.]...
"Manson's link with The Process, or the Church of the
Final Judgement, is more tenuous...The leader of the
satanic cult is Robert Moore, whose cult name is Robert
DeGrimston. Himself a former disciple of Scientology
founder L. Ron Hubbard, Moore broke with Scientology about
1963 to form his own group, after apparently attaining a
high position in the London headquarters..." (p. 470).
And a final note, perhaps irrelevant:
"On November 21, 1969, the bodies of James Sharp, 15, and
Doreen Gaul, 19, were found in an alley in downtown Los
Angeles. The two...had been killed elsewhere...then
dumped there. Each had been stabbed over 50 times...
"Both James Sharp and Doreen Gaul were Scientologists,
the latter a Scientology `clear' who had been residing in
a Church of Scientology commune less than two miles from
the Labianca residence. According to several sources,
Doreen Gaul was a former girl friend of Manson Family
member Bruce Davis, who, like Manson himself, was an
ex-scientologist...[Davis] disappeared shortly after
being questioned [about another murder]." (p. 478)
All in all, pretty sordid stuff; but as you can see, not
much evidence that Scientology had very much influence on
Manson. In fact, unless the terminology has changed
since the mid-60s, it seems like he didn't even
understand too much of what he was studying... or are
terms like "beta-clear" etc. real?
Anyway, there's much more about Scientology in Ed
Saunders' _The_Family, if I remember correctly; if I can
only remember where I've stashed *that*...
Rickie
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Manson speaks
From: MS2...@american.edu (Matt Shearer)
Date: 28 Oct 1995 14:58:58 GMT
on "psychs":
"The subject that interested me was understanding and knowing my own
mind. Prison psychs had told me often enough that I had 'persecution' and
'inferiority' complexed but they never did anything to help me overcome
those faults..."
"Manson in His Own Words", as told to Nuel Emmons. Grove Weidenfeld, New
York, 1986 p.69
on his favorite reading topics while in prison:
"I read whatever books I could find (and understand) that dealt with mind
development. A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and
another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through
this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was
understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how
to direct my energies to each day and each task"
ibid., p. 69-70
on his conversations with Alan "Creepy" Karpis, an imprisoned hit-man:
"There were times when I would try to sell Karpis on the things I was
learning through Scientology. 'Kid', he would say, 'your mind is your
greatest friend, yet it can be your worst enemy. Don't get it more fucked
up than the world has already made it.'"
ibid., p.73
Charlie also mentions his associate Bruce Davis had been involved in
Scientology at one point, verifying the claims of others on this group.
I do not claim any connections between any organization and the
Tate-Labianca murders.
-Matt
"If it's a fact, I'll believe it"
-Beer commercial
From: eme...@alpha.c2.org (Emerald)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: That darn Manson
Date: 25 Nov 1995 05:14:28 +0100
Organization: Mail to Usenet Gateway at Utopia
Message-ID: <1995112504...@infinity.c2.org>
[From a letter to Mary Sue Hubbard, author unknown, dated 22 June 70.
Seized in the 1977 FBI raids.]
Report of interview with Raul Morales, Re: Charles Manson.
According to Raul: Raul arrived in prison on McNeil Island,
Washington in 1962 and became a cell mate of Lafayette Raimer
allegedly a trained Scientology auditor (about Level I in
Rauls's estimation) and was introduced to Scientology at that
time. Raimer was auditing in prison at that time and in one
10 man cell had managed to gather a group of about 7, all in
Scientology. Charles Manson entered later and studied, did TR0
etc. along with his cell-mates and received approximately 150
hours of auditing from Raimer. Processes used were CCH's,
Help processes (Who have you helped-Who have you not helped) and
other Dichotomy processes (Rauls terms, such as What can you
confront, what would you rather not confront), Havingness (Such
as "What can you have?" "Look around and find something you can
have. Look around and find something you're not in." Raimer kept
records of his auditing. Manson got super-energetic & flipped
out when he'd been audited and would, for a time, talk about
nothing but Scientology to the extent that people avoided his
company. After a while, however, Manson was screaming to get away
from his auditor (in Raul's opinion, he'd been severely over-run
or something). He eventually managed to get put in solitary confi-
nement to get away from his auditor. Eventually prison officials
got suspicious of the groups strange activities and broke up the
group.
--
eme...@alpha.c2.org
========
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Repost: Charles Manson and scientology
From: lep...@panix.com (Mike O'Connor)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:16:43 -0500
In article <4iq30n$g...@crl12.crl.com>, mi...@crl.com (Andrew Milne) wrote:
[...]
> Indeed, in 1971, Vincent T. Bugliosi -- former Los
> Angeles deputy district attorney in charge of the Manson case
> for the city, and subsequent author of the best selling book
> "Helter Skelter" -- stated the following in a letter
> addressing this point:
>
> "This is to advise that our investigation of the
> Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any evidence showing
> that any member of the Church of Scientology was involved in
> these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles
> Manson was a practicing member of the Church of Scientology
> at the time of the aforementioned murders.
>
> "I hope the above statement will be of some value to
> you and your church in the event that anyone in the future
> accuses the Church of Scientology of being somehow involved
> in these heinous murders."
>
> Thus any attempts to link Manson and his crimes to
> Scientology is a sorry and spurious attempt to create
> controversy where there is none, as proven here.
Not DURING the murders, BEFORE the murders. Let's see what else Mr.
Bugliosi says, then what Manson says, then what some others say:
++++++++++++++++++++++
Upon being arrested in 1961, "Manson gave as his claimed
religion `Scientologist,' stating that he `has never
settled upon a religious formula for his beliefs and is
presently seeking an answer to his question in the new
mental health cult known as Scientology.' "Scientology, an
outgrowth of science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard's
Dianetics, was just coming into vogue at this time.
Manson's teacher, i.e. `auditor', was another convice,
Lanier Rayner. Manson would later claim that while in
prison he achieved Scientology's highest level, `beta-
clear'...
"Although Manson remained interested in Scientology much
longer than he did in any other subject except music, it
appears that...he stuck with it only as long as his
enthusiasm lasted, then dropped it, extracting and
retaining a number of phrases (`auditioning' [sic], 'cease
to exist', 'coming to Now') and some concepts (karma,
reincarnation, etc.) which, perhaps fittingly, Scientology
had borrowed in the first place."
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 144
++++++++++++++++++++++
By August of 1966, with little other explanation than his
constant inability to stick with anything, a pre-release
prison report mentions that "Manson had no further
interest in academic or vocational training; that he was
no longer an advocate of Scientology..."
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 146
++++++++++++++++++++++
"I knew too, both from his prison records and from my conversations
with him, that Manson's involvement with Scientology had been more
than a passing fad. Manson told me, as he had Paul Watkins, that he
had reached the highest state, "theta clear", and no longer had any
connection with or need for Scienology."
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 635
++++++++++++++++++++++
On November 21, 1969, the bodies of James Sharp, fiften, and Dorren
Gaul, nineteen, were found in an alley in downtown Los Angeles. The
two teen-agers had been killed elsewhere with a long-bladed kniife or
bayonet, then dumped there. Each had been stabbed over fifty times.
Ramparts division Leiutenant Earl Deemer investigated the Sharp-Gaul
murders, as did Los Angeles Times reporter Cohen. Although the two men
felt there was a good possibility that a Familty member was involved
in the slayings, the murders remain unsolved.
Both James Sharp and Doreen Gaul were Scientologists, the latter a
Scientology "clear" who had been residing in a Church of Scientology
house. According to unconfirmed reports, Doreen Gaul was a former girl
friend of Manson Family member Bruce Davis, himself an
ex-Scientologist.
Davis' whereabouts at the times of the murders of Sharp, Gaul and Jane
Doe 59 are not known. He disappeared shortly after being questioned in
connection with the death of Zero.
On December 1, 1969, Joel Dean Pugh, husband of Family member Sandy
Good, was found with his throat slit in a London hotel room. As noted,
local police ruled the death a suicide. On learning of Pugh's demise,
Inyo County DA Frank Fowles made official inquiries, specifically
asking Interpol to check visas to detrmine if one Bruce Davis was in
England at the time.
Scotland Yard replied as follows: "It has been established that Davis
is recorded as embarking at London airport for the United States of
America on 25th April 1969 while holding United States passport 612
2568. At this time he gave his address as Dormer Cottage, Felbridge,
Surrey. This address is owned by the Scientology Movement and houses
followers of this organization."
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 647
++++++++++++++++++++++
"The subject that interested me was understanding and knowing my own mind.
Prison psychs had told me often enough that I had 'persecution' and
'inferiority' complexed but they never did anything to help me overcome
those faults..."
"I read whatever books I could find (and understand) that dealt with mind
development. A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and
another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through
this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was
understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how
to direct my energies to each day and each task"
-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69
++++++++++++++++++++++
"There were times when I would try to sell Karpis on the things I was
learning through Scientology. 'Kid', he would say, 'your mind is your
greatest friend, yet it can be your worst enemy. Don't get it more fucked
up than the world has already made it.'"
-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69
[on Alan "Creepy" Karpis, an imprisoned hit-man]
++++++++++++++++++++++
One famous, in fact infamous person interested in Scientology
that they do not boast about, talk about, or probably even want
is Charles Manson, the convicted murderer of Sharon Tate and
her friends. The New York Times stated that Manson first got
interested in Scientology while he was incarcerated in the McNeil
Island Penitentiary in Washington (Scientology' has programs for
prisons). After his release, The Times reported, he went to
Los Angeles where he was said to have met local Scientologists
and attended several parties for movie stars, possibly the July
18 dedication of the celebrity center. Scientology literature
was also said to be found at the ranch when Manson and his family
were captured. But for reasons unknown, it is claimed that Manson
may have been made a "suppressive person" by the Scientologists,
and there have also been hints that he may have joined the Process,
the sex and satan group which originally broke away from Scientology,.
-- A PIECE OF BLUE SKY
++++++++++++++++++++++
KEY DEFENSIVE MATERIALS
The following is a list of VITAL materials that will help you
understand how Dianetics and Scientology according to their own
internal and secret policies tends to deal with their advesaries
in a conflict. Knowing it in advance you can save yourself a lot
of difficulty.
[...]
The following list of documents were siezed by the FBI on its
authorized search of Scientology's headquarters in LA and
Washington DC. They are all obtainable using the freedom of
Information act, request procedures. Complete sets have also
been sent to the three anti cult organizations mentioned near
the end of this document.
5.* Write up of May 1, 1974. Regarding Security and Theft of
Ma~erials. (How to for, breaking and entering procedures.)
6.* Write up December 2, 1974.
7. L.R.H. Aides Conference. November 2, 1969. Covert
Operations.
8.* Intelligence Specialist Training Routine. TR-L (Intel TR's,
How to lie effectively.)
9.* FBI Document #8592.
10.* Red Box Data Information Sheet (Contains information on how
to purge internal files of disinformation, non profit lobbying,
and any information which would show that Church of Scientology
motives were nonhumanitarian.)
11.* Operation Freakout. April 1 1976. (Church attempts to drive
insane, incapitate, or jail critic using 5.5. and Gestapo like
tactics.)
12. June 22, 1970. Compliance Report Regarding Charles Manson,
Bruce Davis. (Manson went a bit wild on Auditing.)
[...]
- Lawrence Wollersheim
FACTNET document
++++++++++++++++++++++
From: dennis....@support.com
Message-ID: <951025212...@support.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 21:21:40 -0700
[...]
OSA has a standard patter to answer the Manson allegations.
Trouble is, it's not true. Manson was a scieno. He took the
Comm Course at LA Org in 67, I believe it was. Before I got
there. I remember hearing something about it when the vetting
occurred.
++++++++++++++++++++++
From: anon-r...@utopia.hacktic.nl (Anonymous)
Date: 30 Oct 1995 08:48:23 +0100
Message-ID: <472007$5...@utopia.hacktic.nl>
[...]
>nob...@flame.alias.net (Anonymous) wrote:
[...]
>> In article <46ppt5$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, DWTripp <dwt...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I was on ASHO staff at the time. I did hold a tech post. My knowledge
>> >regarding GO actions in the wake of Manson's arrest came from my
>> >attendence at regular Friday night poker games where the presence of
>> >Henning Heldt, Martin Greenberg and other GO people was consistent. Yes,
>> >they did talk shop. The "claim" made at the time (I believe it was Martin)
>> >was that LA Org records had shown that Manson had possibly done a
>> >Communications Course and bought some books. No refernce was ever made
>> >regarding any purge of records and if such was done, it was likely
>> >initiated by LA Org Execs. Possibly even Erlich.
>>
>> This is bullshit. This is the GO trying to MINIMIZE Manson's
Not bullshit.
>> involvement. Using the word "possibly" is trying to avoid an outright
>> lie (Manson wasn't involved) to a fellow Scientologist.
>>
>> You all have the WRONG slant on this. I'm not saying Charles Manson
^^^ ^^^^^^^
Correction, mostly all wrong. Too much speculation, too few facts.
Charles Manson was a Scientologist.
"Possibly" is correct re Comm Course at LA Day.
In addition to auditing when he was in jail,
Charles Manson was "being handled" as a
"clandestine op" off org lines. (If you don't know
what this means, ask Dennis - or Henning or
Moxon or McShane or DM if you can.)
When the news of the murders reached MSH
and LRH on the ship they immediately sent an
encoded telex to D/G US to cancel the msn and
vet all records. A GO "assessment" was done
to evaluate the risk to LRH (not Scn) if info re
the Manson connection was discovered.
(ONLY Henning, the ops and the missionaire
should have known and certainly this would
NOT have been poker party chat.) Years
later, when Manson's name came up again
LRH ordered another "assessment" done.
This time the order travelled thru the CMO
and was seen to by none other than ________ .
Be ye able to fill in the blank, Andy, boy?
Tak' th' high road and ask aboot yoor
own hoose, me laddy.
Rocks be a' slammin'
Old Timer
++++++++++++++++++++++
-Mike
========
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Community Improvement - Doing something effective about it
From: c...@brc.ubc.ca (Cat Davidson-Hall)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:42:49 -0800
In article <koreenb-1205...@cs2-s22-losangeles.datadepot.com>,
kor...@jovanet.com (Cory Brennan) wrote:
> Below are two accounts from prisoners who went through the Criminon
> program, a program which uses technology developed by L Ron Hubbard to
> rehabilitate criminals.
<snip, snip, snip>
I interrupt Cory's unverifiable anecdotes to bring you another Big Win for
Scientology in America's prison system. Unlike Cory's stories, my little
quote is easily confirmed.
"A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and
another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through
this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was
understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how
to direct my energies to each day and each task"
Charles Manson, from _Manson: In His Own Words_
Care to comment, Cory?
Cat
SP4, KoX
--
"I wanted to know the exact dimensions of hell. Does this sound
simple? Fuck you." - Sonic Youth
"One day he's going to kill me, and he'll get away with it because
he's O.J." - Nicole Brown
WESFAGER
Who's the most famous $cientologist of them all?
a. Rear Admiral David Miscaviage
b. Pope Heber Jentzsch
c. Charles Manson
d. Tommy Crews
e. David Berkowitz
f. Sharon Stone
g. Fatty Hubbard
answer: c
(Note if your answered David Berkowitz, you are wrong. There has never been
any tie-in to The Son of Sam and the Church of Scientology, other than he
happened to have the phone number for the Sea Org's Fort Harrison Hotel in his
pocket when he was arrested. There is a tie-in to one of the Sons of Sam
(Berkowitz's neighbors who owned the dog which Berkowitz claimed made him do
it.)
Wes Fager
Religious bigot and loon
William Barwell
In article <6ioqtn$249$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<publicr...@scientology.org> wrote:
>
>
>There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
>Scientology. Here are the facts:
>
>No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
>
>prison where Manson was incarcerated, describes how Mr. Ramer
>worked with fellow prisoners and how his work with them consisted of some
>exposure to practices then current in Scientology. This work was
>"originated and operated strictly by [Mr. Ramer] and was not financed,
>assisted, approved, sponsored, or connected in any way to any Church
>of Scientology...."
You lie. Manson was a Scientologist and the cult, embarressed by Manson's
membership destroyed files that would prove that purposefully, to hide
that embarressment. Dennis Erlich was an eyewitness to Scientology's
efforts to destroy all such files when that project was undertaken by
Scientology.
Manson, was indeed a Scientologist, your lies, acceptable truths,
half truths, sophistries and deceptions only prove Scientology still lies.
>
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
The Momentary Delurker
On 6 May 1998, WESFAGER wrote:
> f. Sharon Stone
she's a clam too? furrfu...
Cheers,
Delurk
Scott A. McClare
(publicr...@scientology.org) writes:
> There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> Scientology. Here are the facts:
> Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
> Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
> murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
> that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
> evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology was involved in
> these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
> practicing member of the Church of Scientology at the time of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> aforementioned murders."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Must be "acceptable truth" time again. If I remember my Bugliosi
correctly, Manson was claiming to be a Scientologist "theta clear" around
ten years before the Tate-LaBianca murders, right?
Scott
--
Scott A. McClare SP4 GGBC#42 "I see you now and then in dreams
cj...@freenet.carleton.ca Your voice sounds just like it used to
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cj871/ I believe I will hear it again
PGP 1024/E7950B29 via finger/keyserver God how I love you" - Mark Heard
Unit 61
publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
>
> There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> Scientology. Here are the facts:
>
> No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
Maybe not in his prison but the Criminon (sp) people are sending,
and receiving communication via US Mail to/from inmates in alot
of other prisons. Sorta like a correspondence course. I have
first hand knowledge of this. (No. I was never in prison)
Never took a clam course either. Xenu showed me how to recognize
a scam.
>
> A 1976 affidavit by Lanier A. Ramer, who was incarcerated in the same
> prison where Manson was incarcerated, describes how Mr. Ramer
> worked with fellow prisoners and how his work with them consisted of some
> exposure to practices then current in Scientology. This work was
> "originated and operated strictly by [Mr. Ramer] and was not financed,
> assisted, approved, sponsored, or connected in any way to any Church
> of Scientology...."
>
> Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
> Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
> murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
> that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
> evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology
Charles was not a member. Dosen't mean he did not take a course
at some time.
> was involved in
> these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
> practicing member of the Church of Scientology
This says that he was not a practicing member. Thats all.
at the time of the
> aforementioned murders."
This says at the time of the murders. Now tell us everything Mr.
Bugliosi
might have said about Charles Manson and $cientology.
Cat O'Blivion
Brandi the Amazing Spinstress <publicr...@scientology.org> wrote:
> There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> Scientology. Here are the facts:
Heavily edited for our consumption, of course.
> Charles Manson never took "church classes" when he was in prison.
> No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
Acceptable truth. Notice how she doesn't deny he received auditing in prison.
He just didn't take "classes".
> This work was
> "originated and operated strictly by [Mr. Ramer] and was not financed,
> assisted, approved, sponsored, or connected in any way to any Church
> of Scientology...."
Acceptable truth. The auditing Manson received in prison was probably not part
of an official "church" program.
> Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
> Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
> murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
> that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
> evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology was involved in
> these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
> practicing member of the Church of Scientology at the time of the
> aforementioned murders."
Acceptable truth again. Manson was the head of his own cult at the time of the
Tate-LaBianca-Hinman-et al. slayings. Notably, Brandi doesn't try to claim that
Manson was never a practicing member of the "church"; I reckon it's because she
can't. At least not without lying by more than omission.
Notice what Brandi doesn't deny:
1. Charles Manson received auditing in prison from Lanier Ramer.
2. Charles Manson claims to have been a "theta clear".
3. Charles Manson considered himself to be a Scientologist during at least one
documented period in his life.
She just attempts to spin her deceptive little webs of half-truths, "acceptable
truths" and misleading facts and hope we don't notice that she's actually said
nothing.
Tragic.
Cat
SP4, KoX
heretic-at-large
"take these broken wings and learn to fly..."
Tilman Hausherr
In <Pine.LNX.3.96.980506...@molly.hh.org>, The
Momentary Delurker <del...@molly.hh.org> wrote:
>> f. Sharon Stone
>
>she's a clam too? furrfu...
Now no longer.
Mike O'Connor
In article <6ioqtn$249$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
> There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> Scientology. Here are the facts:
>
> Charles Manson never took "church classes" when he was in prison.
> No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
>
> A 1976 affidavit by Lanier A. Ramer, who was incarcerated in the same
> prison where Manson was incarcerated, describes how Mr. Ramer
> worked with fellow prisoners and how his work with them consisted of some
> exposure to practices then current in Scientology. This work was
> "originated and operated strictly by [Mr. Ramer] and was not financed,
> assisted, approved, sponsored, or connected in any way to any Church
> of Scientology...."
>
> Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
> Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
> murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
> that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
> evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology was involved in
> these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
> practicing member of the Church of Scientology at the time of the
> aforementioned murders."
>
> Brandi
> publicr...@scientology.org
Here are some quotes from Vincent Bugliosi, Charlie Manson, and others:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Upon being arrested in 1961, Manson gave as his claimed religion
`Scientologist,' stating that he `has never settled upon a religious
formula for his beliefs and is presently seeking an answer to his question
in the new mental health cult known as Scientology.' "Scientology, an
outgrowth of science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics, was just
coming into vogue at this time. Manson's teacher, i.e. `auditor', was
another convice, Lanier Rayner. Manson would later claim that while in
prison he achieved Scientology's highest level, `beta- clear'...
Although Manson remained interested in Scientology much longer than he did
in any other subject except music, it appears that...he stuck with it only
as long as his enthusiasm lasted, then dropped it, extracting and
retaining a number of phrases (`auditioning' [sic], 'cease to exist',
'coming to Now') and some concepts (karma, reincarnation, etc.) which,
perhaps fittingly, Scientology had borrowed in the first place.
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 144
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By August of 1966, with little other explanation than his constant
inability to stick with anything, a pre-release prison report mentions
that "Manson had no further interest in academic or vocational training;
that he was no longer an advocate of Scientology..."
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 146
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I knew too, both from his prison records and from my conversations with
him, that Manson's involvement with Scientology had been more than a
passing fad. Manson told me, as he had Paul Watkins, that he had reached
the highest state, "theta clear", and no longer had any connection with or
need for Scienology.
-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 635
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The subject that interested me was understanding and knowing my own mind.
Prison psychs had told me often enough that I had 'persecution' and
'inferiority' complexed but they never did anything to help me overcome
those faults..."
I read whatever books I could find (and understand) that dealt with mind
development. A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and
another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through
this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was
understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how
to direct my energies to each day and each task"
-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There were times when I would try to sell Karpis on the things I was
learning through Scientology. 'Kid', he would say, 'your mind is your
greatest friend, yet it can be your worst enemy. Don't get it more fucked
up than the world has already made it.'
-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69
[on Alan "Creepy" Karpis, an imprisoned hit-man]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One famous, in fact infamous person interested in Scientology that they do
not boast about, talk about, or probably even want is Charles Manson, the
convicted murderer of Sharon Tate and her friends. The New York Times
stated that Manson first got interested in Scientology while he was
incarcerated in the McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington (Scientology'
has programs for prisons). After his release, The Times reported, he went
to Los Angeles where he was said to have met local Scientologists and
attended several parties for movie stars, possibly the July 18 dedication
of the celebrity center. Scientology literature was also said to be found
at the ranch when Manson and his family were captured. But for reasons
unknown, it is claimed that Manson may have been made a "suppressive
person" by the Scientologists, and there have also been hints that he may
have joined the Process, the sex and satan group which originally broke
away from Scientology,.
-- A PIECE OF BLUE SKY by Jon Atack
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[...]
The following list of documents were siezed by the FBI on its authorized
search of Scientology's headquarters in LA and Washington DC. They are all
obtainable using the freedom of Information act, request procedures.
Complete sets have also been sent to the three anti cult organizations
mentioned near the end of this document.
5.* Write up of May 1, 1974. Regarding Security and Theft of Ma~erials.
(How to for, breaking and entering procedures.)
6.* Write up December 2, 1974.
7. L.R.H. Aides Conference. November 2, 1969. Covert Operations.
8.* Intelligence Specialist Training Routine. TR-L (Intel TR's, How to
lie effectively.)
9.* FBI Document #8592.
10.* Red Box Data Information Sheet (Contains information on how to purge
internal files of disinformation, non profit lobbying, and any information
which would show that Church of Scientology motives were nonhumanitarian.)
11.* Operation Freakout. April 1 1976. (Church attempts to drive insane,
incapitate, or jail critic using 5.5. and Gestapo like tactics.)
12. June 22, 1970. Compliance Report Regarding Charles Manson, Bruce
Davis. (Manson went a bit wild on Auditing.)
[...]
- Lawrence Wollersheim
FACTNET document
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: dennis....@support.com
Message-ID: <951025212...@support.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 21:21:40 -0700
[...]
OSA has a standard patter to answer the Manson allegations.
Trouble is, it's not true. Manson was a scieno. He took the Comm Course
at LA Org in 67, I believe it was. Before I got there. I remember
hearing something about it when the vetting occurred.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not bullshit.
Rocks be a' slammin'
Old Timer
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-Mike
WESFAGER
Don't forget Paulette's Cooper's mention of
Manson.
Enzo Piccone
Tilman Hausherr wrote:
> In <6ioqtn$249$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, publicr...@scientology.org
> wrote:
>
> >There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> >Scientology. Here are the facts:
>
> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
> From: an12...@anon.penet.fi
> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
> Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]
That was one heck of lot of reading material, B.T.. Thanks for posting
it.
You wouldn't have a similar file which shows any murderers unrelated to
any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
No? Well, could you point me to anyone else on the Net who might have
such a file?
E
Martin Hunt
In article <6ipn99$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
cj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Scott A. McClare) wrote:
>Must be "acceptable truth" time again. If I remember my Bugliosi
>correctly, Manson was claiming to be a Scientologist "theta clear" around
>ten years before the Tate-LaBianca murders, right?
Scrawled on the blood-soaked door is a large word, by itself:
"NOTHINGNESS". I have it scanned from Bugliosi's book, as well
as OCRs of all the pages which mention Manson, which I've been
meaning to web someday. That word will be quite significant to
ex-Scns, although, note, it is in the regular English vocabulary
according to my Merriam Webster's. Still, it is an unusual word,
and written large and alone like that on that infamous door is
significant, given Manson's involvement with the Scientology cult.
I'm surprised no one has made note of it before.
Actually, the Family is far from the only cult to split off from
Scientology and retain some of its characteristics; there's also
the Process, EST, Eckankar, and many others. Some people learned
the lesson too well, and struck off on their own in imitation of
Hubbard.
--
Cogito, ergo sum. http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~av282/
"In South Africa, a Bantu's withholds read not on the needle alone
but on the Tone Arm as well. The Tone Arm goes up as much as two
divisions (3 to 5) just before you get off a bad withhold on one."
- L. Ron Hubbard, E-Meter Essentials, page 23.
Mike O'Connor
In article <199805061846...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wesf...@aol.com (WESFAGER) wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In addition to trying to get children to become Scientologists,
Scientologists also actively solicit celebrities. Their celebrity chasing
goes back to around 1955 when Hubbard invited his followers to write and
tell him which celebrity they wanted. promising to allocate one to each
person who asked for one. The person, however, was responsible for all the
expenses involved in getting the celebrity into Scientology. Anyone ,who
succeeded would receive two weeks of special coaching at the Phoenix Org,
although they would have to pay for their own living expenses and
transportation.
Some of the people whom Hubbard hoped would become Scientologists, and
whom he offered to allocate, were: Walter Winchell, Ed Sullivan, Marlene
Dietrich, Ernest Hemingway, Danny Kaye, Joseph Alsop, Stewart Alsop, Sid
Caesar, Liberace, Fred .~dlen, Arthur Godkey, George Gobel, Fulton I.
Sheen, James Stewart, Howard Hughes, Billy Graham, Bob Hope, Pablo
Picasso, Walt Disney, Milton Berle, Jackie Glenson, Lowell Thomas. Red
Skelton, Hem Luce, Walter Lippman, Groucho Marx, Cecil B. Dege, .M-turo
Toscanini, Bing Crosby, Greta Garbo, Charles Addams, Donald O'Connor,
Edward R. Murrow.
Hubbard admitted that pursuing these celebrities would be a bit difficult,
but he told his followers not to be dismayed and to pursue them
relentlessly. "Put yourself at every hand across his or her path," wrote
Hubbard, and do not permit "discouragement or 'no's' or clerks or
secretaries to intervene in days or weeks or months to bring your
celebrity in for a formal auditing session." Project Celebrity still seems
to be one of their policies, since the Scientologists recently opened a
Celebrity Center in California allegedly for the purpose of attracting
Hollywood personalities. Last year it was claimed that the following
celebrities were Scientologists: Tennessee Williams, Leonard Cohen, Mama
Cass Elliot, Stephen Boyd, Jim Morrison, William Burroughs and possibly
the Beatles.
One famous, in fact infamous person interested in Scientology that they do
not boast about, talk about, or probably even want is Charles Manson, the
convicted murderer of Sharon Tate and her friends. The New York Times
stated that Manson first got interested in Scientology while he was
incarcerated in the McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington (Scientology'
has programs for prisons). After his release, The Times reported, he went
to Los Angeles where he was said to have met local Scientologists and
attended several parties for movie stars, possibly the July 18 dedication
of the celebrity center. Scientology literature was also said to be found
at the ranch when Manson and his family were captured. But for reasons
unknown, it is claimed that Manson may have been made a "suppressive
person" by the Scientologists, and there have also been hints that he may
have joined the Process, the sex and satan group which originally broke
away from Scientology,.
Another bit of publicity that the Scientologists are probably not too
pleased with concerns the murder of three people in Los Angeles. Two were
Scientologists. According to The New York Post, all three were brutally
beaten, ritualistically stabbed, had their right eyes cut out, and were
dumped 100 yards from a Scientology commune. One of the girls, Miss Doreen
Gaul, nineteen, who came from New York to study Scientology,, was naked
except for a strand of Indian beads. The boy, James Sharpe was fifteen
years old. The third was unidentified. Doreen Gaul's father allegedly told
a New York Post reporter that she had lately become disenchanted with
Scientology.
-- Paulette Cooper, "The Scandal of Scientology"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-Mike
Cat Davidson-Hall
Martin Hunt wrote:
> Scrawled on the blood-soaked door is a large word, by itself:
> "NOTHINGNESS".
Not at the Tate or LaBianca scenes. The bloody word on the door of the Tate
residence was "Pig". Words at the LaBianca residence included "Rise", "Death
to Pigs", "Healter Skelter" (sic), and the bloody word "WAR" carved in Leno
LaBianca's stomach.
I'd never heard of "Nothingness" being at any of the scenes, but it's possible
I missed something. Can you tell me where in "Helter Skelter" you found this?
Cat
SP4, KoX
heretic-at-large
"he's well-acquainted with the touch of a velvet hand like a lizard on a
windowpane"
Andreas Heldal-Lund
On Wed, 06 May 1998 21:44:10 +0100, Enzo Piccone <en...@ermes.it> wrote:
>That was one heck of lot of reading material, B.T.. Thanks for posting
>it.
>
>You wouldn't have a similar file which shows any murderers unrelated to
>any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
Again Enzo needs to be reminded this is a newsgroup about
Scientology. Not Christianity, Islam or Judaism, or any
other religion.
I would assume you will find newsgroups called something
like:
- alt.religion.christian
- alt religion.islam
- alt.religion.judaism
Good luck.
Best regards, Andreas
www.xenu.net
---
"Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too
important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and
ignorant superstition." -- Isaac Asimov
Tilman Hausherr
>You wouldn't have a similar file which shows any murderers unrelated to
>any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
Yes, this one:
DAUGHTER, GRANDDAUGHTER GUILTY OF WOMAN'S MURDER
The Seattle Times
August 23, 1991, Friday, Final Edition
BY JULIE EMERY
They loved 79-year-old Suzine Van Sickle and brought her back home to live
out her days, they said.
But Van Sickle's caretakers - her daughter and granddaughter - yesterday
were convicted of poisoning, then smothering her.
A King County jury found Jimmie Jean Shumway, 59, the daughter, and Alexis
Shumway, 29, guilty of premeditated first-degree murder in the bizarre killing
last November that they kept secret for three months.
The two showed no emotion as the verdict was read yesterday.
Deputy Prosecutor Lisa Marchese said that after the two depleted the $
100,000 estate of the widowed Van Sickle, she no longer was useful to them.
"They got rid of the burden," the prosecutor said in closing arguments.
"They murdered her."
The daughter and granddaughter gave separate statements to police telling how
they had chopped up 50 capsules of Dilantin, an anti-seizure medicine, then
mixed it in clam chowder (!!!) and fed it to Van Sickle Nov. 17 in the family home in
Rainier Valley.
But when she was still alive the next day, they put a pillow over her face
and suffocated her. After a 20-minute struggle, Van Sickle died.
A medical examiner concluded she died of congestive heart failure, and her
body was donated to the University of Washington.
"This was the perfect murder - with the one exception - a guilty
conscience," John "Jay" Mooney, a Seattle homicide detective, said after the
verdict.
Alexis Shumway, who was chief caretaker for her grandmother, lived with the
secret until Feb. 12, when she called police.
Marchese and Deputy Prosecutor Kerry Keefe brought evidence showing that the
daughter, after getting power of attorney for her mother in late 1987, wrote 30
checks to herself totaling $ 45,000.
More than $ 13,000 was donated to the Church of Scientology, the
prosecutors said. Payments to the nursing home where Van Sickle previously lived
were overdue.
Police found a paper in Jimmie Jean Shumway's Federal Way home where she had
written the fatal dosage for Dilantin - two to five grams - after consulting the
Physician's Desk Reference.
The daughter said in her statement, "I did it. It was a mercy killing." She
said Van Sickle several times had talked about taking her own life.
The granddaughter's statement said she held the pillow "for a while, then I
just held my grandmother's hand."
When Van Sickle was killed, the fees to the nursing home where she earlier
resided were $ 33,000 in arrears and the establishment was attempting to put a
lien on her home on South Brandon Street.
Juror Carla Anderson said after the verdict:
"I think we all were concerned about Alexis. We felt that her mother
obviously dominated and that she was passive."
But the jury had no choice but to follow the law, she said.
Superior Court Judge Frank Sullivan will sentence the two in about six weeks.
The standard sentencing range is 20 to 26 years in prison.
Neither has a criminal record.
Martin Hunt
In article <3550D69A...@spamarama.brc.ubc.ca>,
Cat Davidson-Hall <catd...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Martin Hunt wrote:
>
>> Scrawled on the blood-soaked door is a large word, by itself:
>> "NOTHINGNESS".
>
>Not at the Tate or LaBianca scenes. The bloody word on the door of the Tate
>residence was "Pig". Words at the LaBianca residence included "Rise", "Death
>to Pigs", "Healter Skelter" (sic), and the bloody word "WAR" carved in Leno
>LaBianca's stomach.
>
>I'd never heard of "Nothingness" being at any of the scenes, but it's possible
>I missed something. Can you tell me where in "Helter Skelter" you found this?
I can do better; I can email you the photograph from _Helter Skelter_
of the door in question. I assume you have a copy of the book from
your earlier posts on this thread; doesn't it have that photo? The
copy I scanned, borrowed from a friend, is the Bantam paperback
with 64 pages of photos. I will, eventually, get around to webbing
everything Bugliosi has to say about Manson in the book, complete
with that photo. The word is large, and in the middle of the door;
hard to miss. The door has "Helter Skelter" on it, too, as well as
other things - hands, numbers, etc.
ttyl,
martin.
Scott A. McClare
Martin Hunt (mar...@islandnet.com) writes:
>>Must be "acceptable truth" time again. If I remember my Bugliosi
>>correctly, Manson was claiming to be a Scientologist "theta clear" around
>>ten years before the Tate-LaBianca murders, right?
>
> Scrawled on the blood-soaked door is a large word, by itself:
> "NOTHINGNESS". I have it scanned from Bugliosi's book, as well
> as OCRs of all the pages which mention Manson, which I've been
> meaning to web someday. That word will be quite significant to
> ex-Scns, although, note, it is in the regular English vocabulary
> according to my Merriam Webster's. Still, it is an unusual word,
Words ending in -ness appear to be the stock in trade of Scientologese,
but words like "nothingness" and other coinages in English seem to be
confined to philosophical discourse (exceptions - those that are used in
common language).
> Actually, the Family is far from the only cult to split off from
> Scientology and retain some of its characteristics; there's also
> the Process, EST, Eckankar, and many others. Some people learned
> the lesson too well, and struck off on their own in imitation of
> Hubbard.
From what I've heard of the Process, they're even nastier than Scientology
<tm> proper. Loony *and* fiercely apocalyptic.
Scott A. McClare
Enzo Piccone (en...@ermes.it) writes:
> You wouldn't have a similar file which shows any murderers unrelated to
> any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
Irrelevant. Christians, Jews, or Muslims don't, as a rule, try and deny
that the hypothetical murderers were part of their religion after the fact.
And I, for one, am proud to be part of the same Church Invisible as Karla
Faye Tucker, so there.
wgert
>On Wed, 06 May 1998 00:02:47 -0600, publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
>
>>Charles Manson never took "church classes" when he was in prison.
>>No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
>
>How about any classes offered by the <spit> church or it's front groups?
>
>>
>>Further, a letter from Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Vincent T.
>>Bugliosi (well known for his investigation and prosecution of the Manson
>>murders} written to a minister of the Church of Scientology in 1971 stated
>>that "our investigation of the Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any
>>evidence showing that any member of the Church ofScientology was involved in
>>these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles Manson was a
>>practicing member of the Church of Scientology at the time of the
>>aforementioned murders."
>>
>
>Just because no evidance was found does not mean that none exists.
That kind of logic will end you up going round and round.
>
>Perhaps you could produce a writen statement from Manson stateing he took no
>classes??
No, *you* produce a document that he did as was alleged on ars.
rgonnet
Enzo Piccone wrote:
>
> Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> > In <6ioqtn$249$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, publicr...@scientology.org
> > wrote:
> >
> > >There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> > >Scientology. Here are the facts:
> >
> > Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
> > From: an12...@anon.penet.fi
> > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
> > Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]
>
> it.
>
> any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
>
> such a file?
Piccone, you are a mess! no religion has ever said it was
able to transform people and making them "honest, decent
etc". So, that's why it is so unbearable to see your
murderers, your crazy people, your thieves, your homos, your
sex-abusers, and more generally, the high percentage of
crimes, divorces etc... present in your pseudo-religion.
Roger
Starshadow
In article <35514D6B...@hol.fr>, dictio...@hol.fr says...
> Enzo Piccone wrote:
> >
> > Tilman Hausherr wrote:
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> > > >Scientology. Here are the facts:
> > >
> > > Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
> > > From: an12...@anon.penet.fi
> > > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
> > > Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]
> >
> > it.
> >
> > You wouldn't have a similar file which shows any murderers unrelated to
> > any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
> >
> > No? Well, could you point me to anyone else on the Net who might have
> > such a file?
>
>
> Piccone, you are a mess! no religion has ever said it was
> able to transform people and making them "honest, decent
> etc". So, that's why it is so unbearable to see your
> murderers, your crazy people, your thieves, your homos,
You know, Roger, I know you mean that Oo$ considers us criminals, but I
resent having us homos slap dab in the middle of "thieves, murderers"
etc. and also , crazy people, who can be a lot more savvy than are given
credit for. Just to clarify.
your
> sex-abusers, and more generally, the high percentage of
> crimes, divorces etc... present in your pseudo-religion.
>
> Roger
>
--
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke
Cat Davidson-Hall
Martin Hunt wrote:
> I can do better; I can email you the photograph from _Helter Skelter_
> of the door in question.
Yep. I checked my copy last night actually. "Nothingness" is on the door found, I
think, at Spahn Ranch, not at any of the crime scenes. It was the "blood soaked"
thing that threw me.
Nevermind :-)
Cat
SP4, KoX
heretic-at-large
"she's not a girl who misses much. do do do do do do. oh yeah."
Enzo Piccone
> >any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
>
No, not that one, B.T..
You appear to having some of the same difficulty understanding English
these days that Warrior [sic -- LOL] is having.
B.T., you should take a few lessons from Andreas. At least he
understood what I wrote, even if he appeared not to get the drift of
what it meant.
Perhaps the two of you together might be able to come up with an
answer. We shall see.
B.T. Hausherr. Bigoted Tilman Hausherr. B.T. for short. You know
what, B.T.? I did wonder, when I was reading all about Manson, what
might happen if you were to receive some "auditing" -- in goodness knows
what form -- from a jail mate. Oooooh -- scary. But fascinating to
contemplate.
In the meantime, better stick with anything Koos may have to offer you.
ROFL
E
Enzo Piccone
Andreas Heldal-Lund wrote:
>
> On Wed, 06 May 1998 21:44:10 +0100, Enzo Piccone <en...@ermes.it> wrote:
>
> >it.
> >
> >any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
>
> Scientology. Not Christianity, Islam or Judaism, or any
> other religion.
>
> I would assume you will find newsgroups called something
> like:
>
> - alt.religion.christian
> - alt religion.islam
> - alt.religion.judaism
You missed the point, Andreas, but never mind.
> Good luck.
Really.
E
Andreas Heldal-Lund
On Thu, 07 May 1998 10:07:52 +0100, Enzo Piccone <en...@ermes.it> wrote:
>You missed the point, Andreas, but never mind.
Maybe you forgot to mention it?
Rob Clark
On Wed, 06 May 1998 00:02:47 -0600, publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
>There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
>Scientology. Here are the facts:
>Charles Manson never took "church classes" when he was in prison.
>No "church classes" were ever given in his prison.
THANKS! i love it when you bring up charles manson on your own.
it guarantees yet another thread with "charles manson" right there in everyone's
face. keep up the good work forwarding the enemy line!
rob
/\ndroid <at
Rob Clark wrote in message <35521b0a....@news.mindspring.com>...
And that's an interesting qualification in that statement. If he didn't take
any "church classes" in prison, did he ever take any "church classes" out of
prison?
/\<.
Scientology: The Hamster-Wheel to Total Freedom.
William Barwell
>>
>> >You wouldn't have a similar file which shows any murderers unrelated to
>> >any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
>>
>
>No, not that one, B.T..
>
>You appear to having some of the same difficulty understanding English
>these days that Warrior [sic -- LOL] is having.
>
>B.T., you should take a few lessons from Andreas. At least he
>understood what I wrote, even if he appeared not to get the drift of
>what it meant.
>
>Perhaps the two of you together might be able to come up with an
>answer. We shall see.
>
>B.T. Hausherr. Bigoted Tilman Hausherr. B.T. for short. You know
>what, B.T.? I did wonder, when I was reading all about Manson, what
>might happen if you were to receive some "auditing" -- in goodness knows
>what form -- from a jail mate. Oooooh -- scary. But fascinating to
>contemplate.
>
>In the meantime, better stick with anything Koos may have to offer you.
>
>ROFL
>
>E
Enzo, the Italian Earl G. Curley.
No, it isn't a compliment.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
David Gerard
On Wed, 06 May 1998 00:02:47 -0600, publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
:There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
:Scientology. Here are the facts:
I suggest that 'publicr...@scientology.org' is in fact a RAVING
SUPPRESSIVE - deliberately feeding the simplest, most obvious, most
transparent and most easily-refuted straight-lines to the Suppressive
Persons of a.r.s, in order to get as much factual information on the
subjects re-posted as absolutely quickly as possible.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ AGSF Unit 0|4 http://suburbia.net/~fun/
Stop JUNK EMAIL Boycott AMAZON.COM http://mickc.home.mindspring.com/index1.htm
"God, you have pissed me off to the point where I really wanna cut off your
face and bitch slap your skull." - Individuation
Captain Nerd
In article <35513c40....@news.loop.com>, wgert <wg...@loop.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 06 May 1998 05:55:53 GMT, SPAMBLOC...@pacbell.net (Jim
>Wissick) wrote:
[snip!]
>>
>>Just because no evidance was found does not mean that none exists.
>
>
>That kind of logic will end you up going round and round.
>
>>
>>Perhaps you could produce a writen statement from Manson stateing he took no
>>classes??
>
>No, *you* produce a document that he did as was alleged on ars.
Hi, "lacey!" Yep, interlaced quoted text with original, whoa,
looks like that nasty ol' translator's acting up again! "That
kind of logic will end you up..." Now, what kind of syntax
is *that*? Not anything from *this* side of the pond, that's
for sure! What do you think, Dave, is this another German,
who's cribbed off of "lacey wgert's" style sheet? The other
"lacey wgert" had better grammar, more North American. Once
again, human being, not an automatic script. Say, speaking
of scripts, where's "justin" been? Maybe my newsreader hasn't
caught up with the "Thursday Threat's" posts, yet.
Cap.
--
===============================================================================
= Mail: cpt...@acces.digex.net Web: http://www.access.digex.net/~cptnerd =
= "By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes" =
===============================================================================
rgonnet
> > >
> > > Tilman Hausherr wrote:
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >There has been mention of Charles Manson in relation to the Church of
> > > > >Scientology. Here are the facts:
> > > >
> > > > From: an12...@anon.penet.fi
> > > > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
> > > > Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]
> > >
> > > it.
> > >
> > > any Christian churches or Jewish synagoues or Muslim ...?
> > >
> > > such a file?
> >
> >
> > Piccone, you are a mess! no religion has ever said it was
> > able to transform people and making them "honest, decent
> > etc". So, that's why it is so unbearable to see your
> > murderers, your crazy people, your thieves, your homos,
>
> You know, Roger, I know you mean that Oo$ considers us criminals, but I
> resent having us homos slap dab in the middle of "thieves, murderers"
> etc. and also , crazy people, who can be a lot more savvy than are given
> credit for. Just to clarify.
Yes Starshadow; nothing is here said to critic homos - it's
only the complete lot of stupidities amalgamated by elwrong
himself, not by me. I don't see any relationship other than
his amalgam between homos and criminals by instance: but he
did this, especially in some books and policies or techs.
Not a judgement from me, and just to clarify why those two
completely different groups of the population are here side
by side.
Rob Clark
On 7 May 1998 03:17:52 GMT, cj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Scott A. McClare) wrote:
>> Actually, the Family is far from the only cult to split off from
>> Scientology and retain some of its characteristics; there's also
>> the Process, EST, Eckankar, and many others. Some people learned
>> the lesson too well, and struck off on their own in imitation of
>> Hubbard.
>From what I've heard of the Process, they're even nastier than Scientology
><tm> proper. Loony *and* fiercely apocalyptic.
william sims bainbridge wrote a book called _satan's power_ about the process
church. they were certainly wacky, with a convoluted cosmogony, and with
borrowings from scientology. people who were about in the 60s might remember
them as black or purple-robed street loonies raving about the apocalypse in a
grandly theatrical manner. it was referred to as "the process" or as "the
church of the final judgment" or even as "the process church of the final
judgment," but it started as a psychotherapy cult called "compulsions analysis."
as weird as they were, though, and even considering the claimed involvement of
david "son of sam" berkowitz, and even considering that they may have been
harder on their members than scientology--process members would often give up
all possessions and live on donations--i haven't heard much of the process ever
being malicious and vindictive toward former members or using anything like
"fair game." also unlike most cults, the process kicked out their own founder.
as time passed, the group even grew less weird, turning eventually into a
quirky, but harmless christian sect. i don't know if it still exists in a
recognizable form, but i have heard that "jews for jesus" is a split-off from
one of the later forms of the process.
so my opinion is that the process might have been scary-looking and weird, but
was never all that destructive.
rob
Starshadow
In article <3552A0E5...@hol.fr>, dictio...@hol.fr says...
Yeah, I know it is not *your* belief, mon cher, but had to point that
out, that it only belongs there in a bigot's mindset, which of course is
where the Oo$ is coming from.
(BTW, just a tip for outside the ng, in English idiom, "homos" is
generally considered derogatory, like "queer" but of course members of
the group can use the word in the typical double standard of the
language...) ;>
> > >
> > > Roger
( I love French, but through a twist of fate, had only the equivilant
of first year college level course three times, and very little chance to
practice, so although my pronunciation remains supurb, my vocabulary
isn't enough to get by. I really ought to get one of those interactive
CD-Roms, bet I could pick it up pretty quickly. Thank the Gods you are
fluent in English! I'm very grateful for all the European SPs out there
who know my language. I'd be lost otherwise. )
Starshadow
In article <35530bc5....@news.mindspring.com>, xe...@mindspring.com
says...
around where I was living) were pretty paranoid about them and other like
wierd cults and groups, because they seemed like raving loonies and
because it was a paranoid time, with the feeling that we, the then youth
of America, were under attack from our own gov't, via Viet Nam and the
National Guard, and the "Estabishment", (a vague government conspiracy to
silence us and cut our hair and turn us into mindless consumers as most
of us saw the adults in charge being--hah, little were we to know our own
aging would do that on its own!)
I remember those guys.Hmm, I also remember that when we weren't
convinced they were possibly destructive, they did provide fodder for
some great humor. Them and the "Cheerleaders for Christ", about which I
knew little except they used to march around near the Market two by two
or four by four, in rows, dressed in white. I don't even know what they
called themselves. On a sunny day when you got all the groups together
out and trying to collect people for their particular group, it got
pretty funny to watch...Krishnas, and several singular odd street
preachers, and various other sects and cults, all on different corners,
all in competition.