[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Sons and Daughters"
Timothy W. Lynch
WARNING: Friends, Klingons, countrymen, "Sons and Daughters"
spoilers, ...
In brief: A middle-of-the-road entry; not particularly unpleasant, but
not particularly compelling either.
======
Written by: Bradley Thompson & David Weddle
Directed by: Jesus Salvador Trevino
Brief summary: Worf's son Alexander joins the crew of Martok's
ship, while Dukat's daughter Ziyal returns to the station.
======
After "Rocks and Shoals" last week, my first thought was "will
another four weeks be enough to deal with everything that's been
raised?" After "Sons and Daughters", my first thought was "with all
that's happening, why are we seeing a Worf/Alexander show now?"
When the first question that comes to mind after the show is
effectively asking why it wasn't something else, that's a sign that the
show itself wasn't riveting.
The Worf/Alexander relationship has always been something of a
muddle, ever since Alexander came to live with Worf in TNG's "New
Ground". The idea of Worf, the more-Klingon-than-Klingon officer,
having to deal with a son who isn't interested in Klingon ideals, is a
solid premise, and the relationship is something that could have and
should have worked pretty strongly. Unfortunately, due to a
combination of writing and acting problems, it just never came off in
the TNG days -- so "Sons and Daughters" had something of an uphill
battle at the outset when it came to TNG fans with memories.
Unfortunately, a description of what we got might be "more of the
same". Alexander as a child was whiny, petulant and irritating
(thanks partially to Brian Bonsall, but also partially to the situations
the character kept being put in). Given that fact, I suppose making the
teenage Alexander whiny, petulant, and irritating is consistent
characterization -- but like Lwaxana Troi, it's consistent
characterization of a character people aren't going to want to see.
Worf expects more from Alexander than he should? Check. Worf
tries to send Alexander away? Check. Alexander tries to be a
warrior, but is completely inept? Okay, that's slightly new -- but it's
really nothing we haven't seen before, and I'm not at all sure it's
something worth building an episode around. Additionally, when
Worf vows at the end to teach Alexander how to be a warrior and
learn from him how to be a father, I can't have been the only one
saying "um, we've tried this before."
As for acting problems ... well, Marc Worden was an improvement
over Brian Bonsall -- and if you think that sounds like damning with
faint praise, you're right. In fairness, Alexander is a tough character
to play -- it's hard enough playing a Klingon well as it is, and having
to play a Klingon who doesn't want to be one is harder still. Even so,
most of the time I felt as though I was watching an actor rather than
Worf's son, which didn't help matters -- and the fact that Worf-as-
father has never been Michael Dorn's strongest suit either made things
difficult as well.
As such, the scenes on board the Rotarran were a seriously mixed
bag. The conversation between Martok and Alexander was solid, and
I rather liked Alexander's nemesis Ch'Targ (even if his eventual
acceptance of Alexander was telegraphed almost from his first
appearance). On the other hand, Martok spent a reasonable fraction of
the episode being far more shallow than he usually is (with such deep
observations as "when a father and son don't speak, it means there's
trouble between them"; as my students might say, "well, *DUH*!"),
and even the good scenes felt like echoes of some far superior scenes
on the Rotarran last year in "Soldiers of the Empire".
So much for "Sons". How about "Daughters"?
Well, the daughter in question is named Tora Ziyal, and she wound up
as little more than a pawn. Given how interesting Kira's situation on
board the station has been so far this year, I was hoping for something
just as good this time. I didn't quite get it, but what I got was quite
respectable.
Given Dukat's twofold interest in Kira, both personally and as a
means to validate his own actions, it's understandable and expected
that he'd pull out all the stops to try to bring Kira over to his point of
view. Family ties may be strong on Cardassia, but I have the distinct
feeling that Dukat's dual obsession with power and with Kira is a lot
stronger -- and as such, his reunion with Ziyal was not much more
than a scheme to snare Kira. That works so nicely that even Ziyal's
incredible naivete about her father ("he admits he overreacted" about
leaving her on DS9 to be killed?) works without much of a problem.
There were really only two weak points in this half of the episode.
One of them is one I've made before -- Melanie Smith is just not that
compelling as Ziyal. Given her ancestry and her life up to now, she
should be a gigantic mess of contradictions and questions, wondering
if she fits in anywhere and who her friends really are. Smith is able to
get across some of that (and Ziyal's naive wish that her art could
"bring people together" was a good example), but not all of it.
The second point has to do with Kira's current situation. The last time
we saw Kira, she'd just decided to fight back somehow, so that she
could "look in the mirror and not be nauseated by what I see." Most
of this show felt like a regression from that. It's certainly
understandable that she can't simply sever all ties with the Cardassians
given her current position, but she should be dead set against doing
*anything* that might play into their hands, and I wouldn't have
expected even Ziyal's presence to change that conviction. Had this
episode taken place before "Rocks and Shoals", it would have made a
lot more sense to me where Kira's concerned. (A few lines of
dialogue here and there would have needed to change, but the basic
idea would have worked a lot better.)
The other regular characters pretty much just got token scenes, and
that's also something I sort of wish had been avoided. The Worf/Dax
scene was okay (and was at least addressing their sex life without
smirking about it), but having the Rotarran just happen to be the ship
that rescued Sisko et al. from their plight strains credibility more than
a little. As for Jake, Quark, and Odo -- the words "loose lips" came to
mind rather strongly, especially in Jake's case. Jake's inexperienced
and somewhat naive, but he's never been stupid -- and having him
pester Kira and Odo out in the open, particularly right in front of
Quark, is exceptionally stupid. (Of course, it could be that Quark's
the one who tipped Jake off in the first place, but we've no particular
reason to believe that.) Other tidbits, like the O'Brien/Bashir
grumbling about living on a Klingon ship, worked fine -- but that's all
they did.
All in all, then, "Sons and Daughters" was something of a
disappointment. Very little in it (with the exception of Martok's early
dialogue) was actually *bad*, but much of the Alexander plot felt like
a rehash of something we didn't need to see again, and so much of the
Kira/Ziyal plot felt like it was a week too late that an awful lot of its
impact was blunted. Ah, well; DS9 is still two for three so far, and
next week looks like it has the potential to be a real winner.
Some shorter thoughts:
-- I do like Dukat's aide Damar. The scene where he brought the
dress to Kira ("[Dukat] thought it might amuse you to have me deliver
it") was an awful lot of fun.
-- Worf hasn't tried to see or to talk with Alexander for five years?
Pardon? Five years ago, Worf and Alexander were *still on the
Enterprise*. Two or three would be believable, but not five.
-- Ziyal's status on Bajor was a very welcome subject, and one I
hadn't thought much about. I suppose being the daughter of someone
leading a war against the Emissary would lead to certain tensions...
-- Dukat's actions after Kira returned the dress were extremely
interesting; never let an opportunity lie, I suppose...
-- Is Alexander actually going to be a recurring character now? Based
on the show, I would tend to hope not, but it seems very possible...
-- The one pleasant surprise I got from "Sons and Daughters" is that
Alexander wasn't killed while proving himself to Worf. Going into
the final act, I expected some final act of martyrdom (or at the very
least, heroism); it was nice to simply have Alexander realize his
limitations, and accept them. (Locking himself in a corridor, though?
Sheesh.)
-- The shot near the end of the Rotarran zipping away felt very much
like a similar shot towards the end of "Soldiers of the Empire". I
think they reused it -- which, given how terrific a shot it is, is certainly
understandable.
That about covers it; I hope the six-episode arc takes a turn back to
form next week. So, wrapping up:
Writing: Not a lot of new ground, unfortunately -- reasonable, but
that's all.
Directing: Nothing stood out, positively or negatively.
Acting: Both the son and the daughter were somewhat weak spots;
Hertzler was fine, and Alaimo was his usual delicious self.
OVERALL: 6, I think; solidly watchable, but that's all.
NEXT WEEK:
The Last Temptation of Odo.
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"You don't like the dress."
"The dress is fine; I don't like YOU."
-- Dukat and Kira
--
Copyright 1997, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
Brian Barjenbruch
Alexander didn't lock himself in the corridor on the Rotarran. Ch'Targh
and the others locked him in there. Worf gave Alexander a way out of the
situation so Alexander wouldn't have to accuse his fellow crewmates (and
subsequently get killed in a duel).
I do wonder, though, why they never mentioned Drex--<Martok's> son. Drex
only appeared in Way of the Warrior (he was the one who said to Odo 'as
long as you wear that uniform, we're still allies--be sure you never take
it off), when the changeling Martok was still in evidence. In subsequent
episodes we never found out Drex's reaction when the real Martok came
back, or how Drex and his father got along before or after that...
Brian
George Reese
In rec.arts.startrek.current Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
: -- Ziyal's status on Bajor was a very welcome subject, and one I
: leading a war against the Emissary would lead to certain tensions...
Actually, I found this characterizationof the war from the viewpoint
of the Bajorans to be a really nice touch. To them, it is 'the war
against the Emissary of the prophets'. That adds to the war a
dimension the resistance against the Cardassians did not have. I hope
we see it exploited some more.
--
George Reese (bo...@imaginary.com) http://www.imaginary.com/~borg
"In our fear, we make an image, and that image we call God."
Antonius Block in The Seventh Seal
Shawn Hill
Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
: WARNING: Friends, Klingons, countrymen, "Sons and Daughters"
:
: In brief: A middle-of-the-road entry; not particularly unpleasant, but
: not particularly compelling either.
:
: ======
: Written by: Bradley Thompson & David Weddle
: Directed by: Jesus Salvador Trevino
: Brief summary: Worf's son Alexander joins the crew of Martok's
: ship, while Dukat's daughter Ziyal returns to the station.
: ======
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:::::::::::::::
: and even the good scenes felt like echoes of some far superior scenes
: on the Rotarran last year in "Soldiers of the Empire".
While I did like seeing even more new Klingons (and I think this
occasional Klingon focus is one of the best benefits of Worf's transfer
from TNG to DS9).
: So much for "Sons". How about "Daughters"?
: feeling that Dukat's dual obsession with power and with Kira is a lot
: stronger -- and as such, his reunion with Ziyal was not much more
: than a scheme to snare Kira. That works so nicely that even Ziyal's
Highly possible.
: There were really only two weak points in this half of the episode.
: One of them is one I've made before -- Melanie Smith is just not that
: compelling as Ziyal. Given her ancestry and her life up to now, she
: should be a gigantic mess of contradictions and questions, wondering
And she certainly shouldn't be doing gorgeous and spiritual brush
paintings. If this chick is an artist, 'esp. one caught between two
worlds,' you'd expect her to be doing much more difficult and challenging
and angst-filled works. It's really amazing to me in Trek that, whenever
we see art-making, it's never a performance artist or a light sculptor or
a tachyon arranger, but someone who paints or draws with brushes on paper
or canvas...or plays the flute. At least Spock and that pianist Picard
loved had unique instruments made for them.....though, with each (early
music and classical music, respectively) the music they did sounded hardly
'alien.' Apparently the art of the future will be the art of the past.
: if she fits in anywhere and who her friends really are. Smith is able to
: get across some of that (and Ziyal's naive wish that her art could
: "bring people together" was a good example), but not all of it.
I think she's fine, I just think Ziyal is ridiculously underwritten. She
should really be a little angry and frustrated by now, you're right.
Where's the black leather and the illegal phazer cannon, Ziyal?
: of this show felt like a regression from that. It's certainly
: understandable that she can't simply sever all ties with the Cardassians
: given her current position, but she should be dead set against doing
: *anything* that might play into their hands, and I wouldn't have
: expected even Ziyal's presence to change that conviction. Had this
: episode taken place before "Rocks and Shoals", it would have made a
: lot more sense to me where Kira's concerned. (A few lines of
: dialogue here and there would have needed to change, but the basic
: idea would have worked a lot better.)
I too felt as if the episode appeared out of sequence...but, if anything
is going to sway or confuse Kira, it's her love for 'family', which is
what Ziyal is to her. Perhaps Dukat sensed her slipping away, as I agree
with you he did all this to wrap Kira up even further in dresses of his
choosing.
: All in all, then, "Sons and Daughters" was something of a
: disappointment. Very little in it (with the exception of Martok's early
: dialogue) was actually *bad*, but much of the Alexander plot felt like
but was it really "bad" dialogue, or was it just the way Klingons talk
about complex emotional issues? What I resented was how Worf refused to
go further into Kehlar's history...this was a woman he had very deep
feelings for her, but he blithely dismisses her memory (and criticizes
her) to Martok.
: a rehash of something we didn't need to see again, and so much of the
: Kira/Ziyal plot felt like it was a week too late that an awful lot of its
I kept hoping Alexander would make a better choice than just to try and be
a warrior. The grown Alexander from the future tried to be a peacekeeper
for years before he decided to finally become a warrior....you'd think
this one could think of much better things to do than serve on Daddy's
ship. And like you, when Worf promised to teach him to be warrior, I
thought "Worf, you already showed you don't have the patience Alexander
needs. Can't you love him and tell him to go right treatises on
philosophy or something?" It was a waste of Alexander's potential as a
foil to his father.
At least Jake is doing what he wants, regardless of Daddy's plans.
And if Alexander had a kind of ritual hazing to go throuh, Ziyal takes the
female role of trying to please everyone. I hope she's learned that that
is not possible, and takes a stand she herself can live with. I'd run
screaming from the room if Dukat was my daddy, for one thing.
: -- Worf hasn't tried to see or to talk with Alexander for five years?
: Pardon? Five years ago, Worf and Alexander were *still on the
: Enterprise*. Two or three would be believable, but not five.
I don't think it's totally believable that Alex. would have let all that
time pass without trying to contact Worf himself. Or that Worf would have
refused to answer if he had.
: -- Ziyal's status on Bajor was a very welcome subject, and one I
: hadn't thought much about. I suppose being the daughter of someone
: leading a war against the Emissary would lead to certain tensions...
Plus she looks too Cardassian to make the Bajorans easy.
: -- Dukat's actions after Kira returned the dress were extremely
: interesting; never let an opportunity lie, I suppose...
the big faker.
: -- Is Alexander actually going to be a recurring character now? Based
: on the show, I would tend to hope not, but it seems very possible...
I'm waiting for him to become a sacrifice, like Kirk's son.
: least, heroism); it was nice to simply have Alexander realize his
: limitations, and accept them. (Locking himself in a corridor, though?
: Sheesh.)
"They accept him as ship's fool!"
: That about covers it; I hope the six-episode arc takes a turn back to
: form next week. So, wrapping up:
Though, how many times are the Founders going to try to seduce a
recalcitrant Odo?
Shawn
* . * . * . * .
Q: "Am I still your woman?"
A: "You're the captain's woman...until he says you're not."
. * . * . *sh...@fas.harvard.edu
David Wicks
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu writes:
>After "Sons and Daughters", my first thought was "with all
>that's happening, why are we seeing a Worf/Alexander show now?"
My first thought was more prosaic: "What is Alexander doing here when he's
only about 8 years old?" :-)
Why are the "lesser" and imminently dull (or, worse, downright annoying)
characters continuing to see the light of day? And why in the middle of
this series of shows?
I have the impression that TPTB have read complaints like yours that they
wrap things up too quickly, and decided to throw in the kitchen sink in this
story arc.
>Well, the daughter in question is named Tora Ziyal, and she wound up
>as little more than a pawn. Given how interesting Kira's situation on
>board the station has been so far this year, I was hoping for something
>just as good this time. I didn't quite get it, but what I got was quite
>respectable.
IMO this material was very poor. When Ziyal came bouncing off the transport
with Dukat, I seriously thought she was drugged or a clone or something.
She's never been this relentlessly stupid. "He admitted he overreacted."
Her art "bringing people together." Ugh.
And Dukat seemed downright schizoprenic. From the beginning, he's been
unable to decide whether he wants to dote on Ziyal or kill her.
As you point out, he's clearly using her to get to Kira. But he seemed
genuinely moved by her affection.
It would actually be something of a relief to find out his affection is
wholly a ruse, since it would restore some consistency to his meandering
characterization.
>As for Jake, Quark, and Odo -- the words "loose lips" came to
>mind rather strongly, especially in Jake's case. Jake's inexperienced
>and somewhat naive, but he's never been stupid -- and having him
>pester Kira and Odo out in the open, particularly right in front of
>Quark, is exceptionally stupid.
Well, I'm sorry to keep sounding negative, when I'm enjoying this story
arc in general, but. . . . :-)
The whole Kira and Odo Conspiracy Ring plays to me like a bad B-movie.
"We have to find a way to communicate with our contacts on Bajor." Sounds
vaguely familiar to when I played War when I was eight. :-)
>The one pleasant surprise I got from "Sons and Daughters" is that
>Alexander wasn't killed while proving himself to Worf.
I don't know. . . it would have meant we would have to see him again.
Since I didn't like the story anyway, I'd have been willing to pay
that price. :-)
--
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any
invention in human history with the possible exceptions
of handguns and tequila."
-- Mitch Ratliffe, _Technology Review_ April, 1992
Shawn Hill
Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
: her reaction to be that Dukat was totally off the mark in even
: thinking she'd go for something like that. Instead, she really liked
: it, then realized that it wouldn't do to accept a dress from him.
We have indeed seen Kira in dresses on rare occasions. Now, sometimes she
was impersonating a Cardassian, sometimes she was in a holo-novel,
sometimes she was on religious leave, sometimes she was in another
universe.....but my impression of Kira has always been that she is someone
who likes beauty very much, and that one of her great tragedies is that
there's been so little time for it in her life.
: When Ziyal was there, they were acting like proud parents, though..
The best part of the whole ep, to me. Kira and Dukat have always bonded
over Ziyal....I think Kira sees her as the daughter she's been too busy to
have, and Dukat sees Kira as the Bajoran lover he lost. And Ziyal, she
just needs both of them so much, she's willing to keep those rose-colored
glasses on as long as it takes.
Shawn
Mike S Reynolds
In article <brianb1-1910...@cx31002-a.omhaw1.ne.home.com>,
Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com> wrote:
>> He has been separated from his other six kids for some time
>
>Other seven, I think. When Dukat mentioned he had seven children ('The
>Maquis') he didn't yet know that Ziyal even existed. So now he has
><eight> kids. Have we ever found out if his wife took him back after he
>became ruler of Cardassia? I don't know.
Well, knowing the way Dukat first handled Ziyal's betrayal I wouldn't be
surprised to find out that his ex and children met with an unfortunate
accident by now.
Mike Reynolds
Indrani DasGupta
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:
<<In brief: A middle-of-the-road entry; not particularly unpleasant, but
not particularly compelling either.>>
After looking breathlessly forward to this season's eps (especially the
much-touted six parter story arc) I am amazed at how disappointed I feel.
Especially considering the fact that these three eps we have seen so far
aren't half-bad. They've just been built up too darned much, IMO.
Then again...
<<raised?" After "Sons and Daughters", my first thought was "with all
that's happening, why are we seeing a Worf/Alexander show now?">>
I'll tell you why, Tim. It's because the Klingons are really reflections
of the emotionally stunted, adolescent male that's clamoring to get out
of the bodies of every single one of those writers, especially Ron Moore.
I have a sneaky feeling that he needs to surf the net a bit more, judging
from his posts elsewhere he is sadly mistaken that the Klingons make for
riveting drama to us. Even the guys, Mr. Moore, are sick of dead-beat dad
Worf and his whiny kid. Add to that the questionable acting skills of
both Dorn and Worden (Dorn, imo, has NEVER taken this admittedly anal,
and thus intrinsically fascinating, character by the horns), not to
mention the soapy plot -- and you begin to lose, granted for the duration
of the ep, hardcore DS9-ers like me.
<<board the station has been so far this year, I was hoping for something
just as good this time. I didn't quite get it, but what I got was quite
respectable.>>
I got what PROMISED to be respectable, but something that turned out to
be bland and choppy. With Alaimo in the scenes, there were at least some
decent moments. He makes even a bad script worth watching, not to mention
uninspired direction.
<<One of them is one I've made before -- Melanie Smith is just not that
compelling as Ziyal. Given her ancestry and her life up to now, she
should be a gigantic mess of contradictions and questions, wondering
if she fits in anywhere and who her friends really are. Smith is able to
get across some of that (and Ziyal's naive wish that her art could
"bring people together" was a good example), but not all of it.>>
This is something that got completely lost in that meaningless
Garak/Ziyal thread (which, incidentally, went nowhere -- surprise!!). But
just what IS a person who is the motherless, illegitimate daughter of an
"intergalactic despot", whose mother COULD have been a collaborator
(story idea, TPTB!), who lived (since the age of thirteen) and almost
died (and MAY have been raped/molested) in a Breen labor camp (story
idea, TPTB!), whose father almost killed her in cold-blood, who can never
call any land her home and will never be accepted by the two societies
that spawned her -- just what IS a person like that going to DO with
herself? Develop a crush on the first man that comes along that looks and
acts even remotely like her father? Sure. For a time. Then what? Go to
university and discover she's another Nanpak-whoever? Sheesh! Just what
do you take us for? Give us better characterization folks! If not, at
least give us back Cyia Batten! She put more nuance and subtext in a
quirk of her lip than Melanie Smith can in an entire scene.
<<Had this
episode taken place before "Rocks and Shoals", it would have made a
lot more sense to me where Kira's concerned. (A few lines of
dialogue here and there would have needed to change, but the basic
idea would have worked a lot better.)>>
The whole thread with Kira/Dukat/Ziyal seemed forced. I have heard that
TPTB cut a whole scene between Dukat, Damar and Kira right after that
"intergalactic despot" comment Kira made to Dukat. Apparently this scene
would have transitioned Kira's behaviour with Dukat from the obvious fear
and hostility in ATTS to something resembling co-existence, and maybe
even a subtle connection/attraction. It would have explained (gasp!) her
delighted smile at the gift (despite *knowing* that it was from *Gul
Dukat*!), AND explained (gasp!) the horror on her face a moment later. As
it is, this entire thread, the way it is handled, totally negates that
explosive scene in ATTS. What happened AFTER that scene, for pity's
sakes? Is this an example of the much-awaited STORY ARC!!?? No thank you,
TPTB!
<<As for Jake, Quark, and Odo -- the words "loose lips" came to
mind rather strongly, especially in Jake's case. Jake's inexperienced
and somewhat naive, but he's never been stupid -- and having him>>
Jake's dilemma (I dunno whether this is because of the superior acting
skills of Cirroc Lofton or not) is the only thing that seems believable
to me so far. If I was in that situation I'd be losing a few marbles in
my desperation too.
<<All in all, then, "Sons and Daughters" was something of a
disappointment.>>
This is my biggest gripe about this season so far. After three months of
hearing about the reset button being phasered into oblivion -- what are
we getting, really? Okay, so the "regulars" are on ships somewhere else,
and the station is being manned by "irregulars". Granted, the show IS
about the Emissary, but it's also about the station. So why not show a
bit more of what's happening in there? Heck, why not show only that for
the whole duration of an ep? I mean, the regs aren't going anywhere!!
They'll be back (I am sure) in force for the rest of those twenty-odd eps
coming this fall (not to mention the 26 in the spring). And when you have
a grand, built-in excuse (the re-occupation of Terok Nor) for using
recurring characters like Weyoun (seen ONLY in ATTS! Granted they had,
and used to maximum effect, a fabo Vorta in R&S), Dukat, and Damar (what,
they suited him up for a line here and a line there? -- a
Juilliard-trained actor?? If I was Casey, I wouldn't come back, I think)
to maximum effect -- despite having these fascinating characters you
could really use -- you are reduced to showing WORF AND HIS WHINY KID for
three-quarters of the episode?? Huh?? Is that a fault of writing,
directing, or plain not seeing the forest for the trees? I doubt the
suits up in Paramount are responsible for that!!
<<-- I do like Dukat's aide Damar. The scene where he brought the
dress to Kira ("[Dukat] thought it might amuse you to have me deliver
it") was an awful lot of fun.>>
*And* that scene they cut would have added vastly to (not to mention
explained) that look on Damar's face as he was handing her the "gift"
from Dukat. THAT'S creative decision-making for you!
<<Writing: Not a lot of new ground, unfortunately -- reasonable, but
that's all.>>
If this is the kind of choppy storytelling these two are capable of --
come back RHW, I don't really hate you anymore.
<<OVERALL: 6, I think; solidly watchable, but that's all.>>
Tim, you're being way too nice here, imo.
<<The Last Temptation of Odo.>>
We shall see.
Indrani.
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Hiero Bosch
Indrani DasGupta wrote in message <8773622...@dejanews.com>...
>
>
>This is something that got completely lost in that meaningless
>Garak/Ziyal thread (which, incidentally, went nowhere -- surprise!!).
It's hard for it to go anywhere while Garak is fighting for the other side.
> But
>just what IS a person who is the motherless, illegitimate daughter of an
>"intergalactic despot", whose mother COULD have been a collaborator
>(story idea, TPTB!),
The impression I got was that she was a slave, like Dax in "Things Past."
Much closer to Dukat's style of woman.
> who lived (since the age of thirteen) and almost
>died (and MAY have been raped/molested) in a Breen labor camp (story
>idea, TPTB!),
Nah, keep in mind the Breen live in freezer suits. I doubt they'd want
their icepicks near her.
>whose father almost killed her in cold-blood, who can never
>call any land her home and will never be accepted by the two societies
>that spawned her -- just what IS a person like that going to DO with
>herself? Develop a crush on the first man that comes along that looks and
>acts even remotely like her father? Sure. For a time. Then what? Go to
>university and discover she's another Nanpak-whoever? Sheesh! Just what
>do you take us for? Give us better characterization folks!
I disagree. Ziyal has NO ONE to turn to. No Bajorans, no Cardassians.
Just her father and Kira. She clearly is a naive person, and I think being
a slave for most of her life could have something to do with that.
You're forgetting what's underneath. Ziyal just popped on the scene. She's
not use to political infighting and wars. She just wants everyone to get
along. That's why in a sense it makes sense for her to be an artist,
because she has a very stilted vision of the world, one detached from
reality.
>If not, at
>least give us back Cyia Batten! She put more nuance and subtext in a
>quirk of her lip than Melanie Smith can in an entire scene.
Batten was better but I thought Smith was more than satisfactory here.
>recurring characters like Weyoun (seen ONLY in ATTS! Granted they had,
>and used to maximum effect, a fabo Vorta in R&S),
He's in the next three.
>Dukat, and Damar (what,
>they suited him up for a line here and a line there? -- a
>Juilliard-trained actor?? If I was Casey, I wouldn't come back, I think)
Casey will have plenty of stuff to do soon.
>
>
>*And* that scene they cut would have added vastly to (not to mention
>explained) that look on Damar's face as he was handing her the "gift"
>from Dukat. THAT'S creative decision-making for you!
I agree, that was a stupid call. Kill the Martok and Alexander scene over
that.
>
Shawn Hill
Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
: I doubt that Kira is anything like Ziyal's mother. We had a hint in
: what she must have been like in that communal flashback with Odo in
: which the others participated. Dax seemed to play the part of Dukat's
: mistress when he was courting her. I can't recall the exact dialogue,
: but Dukat was indicating that it was lonely at the top and that he
: found comfort in her presence even though she was a lowly and simple
: sort of girl.
Which episode was this? It sounds familiar, but I can't place it.
: I'd say that Dukat finds Kira an enjoyable challenge rather than a
: possible companion. He wouldn't mind bedding her, but mostly he
: enjoys annoying her and putting her off balance. The dance is the
: thing.
The dance is surely part of the thing, but Dukat always has his eyes on
the prize. And what better prize than winning over a former resistance
leader by making her choose him of her own free will? That's his goal --
he's attracted to Kira because he can't have her, and so he's got to have
her.
Shawn
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
= +
+ "I'm a human costume with veins of gold =
= I'll face the punching bag, do what I'm told +
+ till I get old, and have to dwell =
= in the Valley of Iron Men" +
+ --GbV =
= +
+=+=sh...@husc.harvard.edu+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Bill Harris
Shawn Hill wrote:
>
> Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
>
> : I doubt that Kira is anything like Ziyal's mother. We had a hint in
> : what she must have been like in that communal flashback with Odo in
> : which the others participated. Dax seemed to play the part of Dukat's
> : mistress when he was courting her. I can't recall the exact dialogue,
> : but Dukat was indicating that it was lonely at the top and that he
> : found comfort in her presence even though she was a lowly and simple
> : sort of girl.
>
> Which episode was this? It sounds familiar, but I can't place it.
"Things Past", early on in season 5. Odo, Sisko, Garak and Dax find
themselves on Terak Nor during the Cardassian occupation, and everone
else percieves them as Bajorans.
--
William Harris
Astronomical Applications Dept.
U.S. Naval Observatory
"I don't do Windows... 95 or otherwise!"
Shawn Hill
Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
: sh...@fas.harvard.edu (Shawn Hill) wrote:
: > I was also disappointed she went
: > for him in the first place, though. Seemed much too simplistic and
: > obvious.
: I thought it worked well with the actress playing Ziyal at the time,
: when their friendship began. As well, don't forget that Garak was the
: only Cardassian male on the station and she the only Cardassian
half-Cardassian, though, and raised in a slave camp. You'd think she'd
want NEW experiences, not replicated old ones.
: female, and both had lived in considerable isolation from others of
: their kind. She's naive; he's James Bond and he can hem a skirt -
: attraction was inevitable.
He's also older than her daddy, so attraction is kind of ..... creepy.
Shawn
Brian Barjenbruch
> He's also older than her daddy
Are you sure? They never actually said how old Garak and Dukat are.
> so attraction is kind of ..... creepy.
I don't think so. Under all that Cardassian makeup, it's hard to tell how
old somebody is, and besides, many May/December romances work.
Brian
Shawn Hill
Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
: > He's also older than her daddy, so attraction is kind of ..... creepy.
: Older than her father? I figure that they are much the same age. We
: don't know what is considered a good match, age-wise, for Cardassian
: couples. The match of a female in her late teens and an established
: male in his 30's would have been considered ideal not so long ago.
Well, obviously this is a matter of perception, and I agree completely
that we've been mostly uniformed about Cardassian love matches....but, to
me, Garak looks to be at least 20-30 years older than Ziyal, and probably
ten years older than Dukat. Inabrin Tain was an old geezer, basically.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
: She was twelve when she ended up at the slave camp. Don't know what
: you mean by "replicated old experiences".
I meant that her attraction to Garak is part of a search for a kindler,
gentler Cardassian father figure than Dukat. Whereas, it would seem just
as likely to me that she would refect Cardassians and Bajorans altogether,
and be a traumatized teen of the sort that Alexander is.
Shawn
Szelim Kong
Joe D wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:47:31 -0500, dwi...@fly.hiwaay.net (David
>Wicks) wrote:
>
>-}
>-}tly...@alumni.caltech.edu writes:
>-}
>-}
>-}>After "Sons and Daughters", my first thought was "with all
>-}>that's happening, why are we seeing a Worf/Alexander show now?"
>-}
>-}
>-}My first thought was more prosaic: "What is Alexander doing here when
he's
>-}only about 8 years old?" :-)
>
>I thought the same, but to be honest, we DON'T know that klingons
>DON'T age very rapiadly at age 7 or 8... They live into their 200's
>after all. (if they aren't killed, that is.)
>/\ Posted By Da Man /\
Didn't Lursa's and B'etor's brother (I thought he was their brother) age
very quickly also?
- Szelim Kong -
Rapture
I need copies of Sons and Daughters and Behind the Lines. If anyone can
help me out, email me at bm5...@acs.brockport.edu
Thanks,
Beth
Rapture
I need copies of Sons and Daughters and Behind the Lines. If anyone can
help me out, email me at bm5...@acs.brockport.edu
Thanks,