Review: Pratchett, The Wee Free Men
Kate Nepveu
Terry Pratchett's latest Discworld novel is _The Wee Free Men_. I
hadn't realized this had already been published, and came across it by
accident while browsing the YA section of my local Borders. It didn't
appear in the SF section at all, so if you have trouble finding this,
check the YA section. (And then buy _Sorcery and Cecilia_ while you're
there--but that's another post.)
As I've said before, Pratchett's YAs are basically the same as his
adult novels except that they're shorter, darker, and have chapters. I
think of _The Wee Free Men_ as _Lords and Ladies II: The Next
Generation_. The Queen of Faerie is still trying to push her way into
reality, because, well, that's what she does; this time the witch
facing her down is not Granny Weatherwax of Lancre, but nine-year-old
Tiffany Aching of the Chalk. The title refers to her allies, a clan of
the Nac Mac Feegle (pictsies; they're six inches high, paint
themselves blue, and spent all their time drinking, swearing,
stealing, or fighting).
One of the things I particularly like about this book is Tiffany's
relationship with her grandmother, recently deceased and one of the
two former witches of the Chalk. (The other is dying as the book
opens, which is why the Chalk is vulnerable to the Queen's
incursions.) The book uses flashbacks heavily to portray this
relationship, which is comforting, loving, and yet filled with awkward
moments and unspoken regrets; I found the portrayal realistic and
refreshing.
It's that relationship, and the sense of place and history that are
bound up in it, that keep this book from being just a rehash of _Lords
and Ladies_. Yes, much of the action takes place in Fairyland, which
is a first for the Discworld, and the Nac Mac Feegle have a somewhat
more prominent role--but the natures of witchcraft and the Queen are
themes that have already been done in the Discworld books, and without
this additional dimension, I think I would find this book somewhat
stale.
Okay, except for the Nac Mac Feegle, who I can't help but find amusing
no matter what the context (even if they'd run away from me because
I'm a lawyer).
[Tiffany and the clan are going after the Queen, who has stolen
Tiffany's brother.]
"Why're we stopping? Why're we stopping _here_? We've got
to catch her!"
"Got to wait for Hamish, mistress," said Rob Anybody.
"Why? Who's Hamish?"
"He might have the knowin' of where the Quin went with your wee
laddie," said Rob Anybody soothingly. "We canna just rush in, ye
ken."
A big, bearded Feegle raised his hand. "Point 'o order, Big Man.
Ye _can_ just rush in. We _always_ just rush in."
"Aye, Big Yan, point well made. But ye gotta know _where_ ye're
just gonna rush in. Ye canna just rush in _anywhere_. It looks
bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
Words of wisdom, indeed.
If you like prior Pratchett novels, I recommend picking up this one as
well.
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
Konrad Gaertner
>
> One of the things I particularly like about this book is Tiffany's
> relationship with her grandmother, recently deceased and one of the
> two former witches of the Chalk. (The other is dying as the book
> opens, which is why the Chalk is vulnerable to the Queen's
> incursions.)
*blink* Other witch? Who are talking about? The only deaths in
the book (IIRC) are some dromes and maybe Jenny (and some Feegle
stop being dead (I love their religion)).
> The book uses flashbacks heavily to portray this
> relationship, which is comforting, loving, and yet filled with awkward
> moments and unspoken regrets; I found the portrayal realistic and
> refreshing.
I found those passages slightly awkward, mainly when it starts
like a memory, and then Miss Tick responds to the last line.
All in all, good solid Pratchett.
--KG
Robert Sneddon
Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes
>[Edited and reposted from the book log.]
>
>Terry Pratchett's latest Discworld novel is _The Wee Free Men_.
>As I've said before, Pratchett's YAs are basically the same as his
>adult novels except that they're shorter, darker, and have chapters. I
>think of _The Wee Free Men_ as _Lords and Ladies II: The Next
>Generation_.
This seems to be a recap book in many ways; _Lords and Ladies_ provides
the protagonist with an antagonist. Tiffany is another overly-wise
seventh son/daughter of a seventh daughter/son directly out of the mould
that produced Eskarina in _Equal Rites_; indeed she spends some time
considering how to get into Witches School (which, in her mind,
resembles a Certain Other School of Wizardry from another popular (but
shorter) series of best-selling juvenile fantasy books). Granny
Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg appear at the end to wrap things up in an an
unnecessary coda reminiscent of _Maskerade_. I was a little disappointed
Death did not interject some HOLLOW CAPITALS and the Luggage didn't trip
its way through the plot pursuing a terrified Rincewind. Maybe the next
book.
>One of the things I particularly like about this book is Tiffany's
>relationship with her grandmother, recently deceased and one of the
>two former witches of the Chalk.
> The book uses flashbacks heavily to portray this
>relationship, which is comforting, loving, and yet filled with awkward
>moments and unspoken regrets; I found the portrayal realistic and
>refreshing.
Granny Aching seemed the most rounded character in the book; Tiffany
varied in consistency throughout. She is only eleven and yet to come
innto her inheritance, of course.
>
>It's that relationship, and the sense of place and history that are
>bound up in it, that keep this book from being just a rehash of _Lords
>and Ladies_
The Chalk is well-represented, but again the idea of the living
landscape was done in _Wyrd Sisters_. The Chalk is delineated better,
though.
>. Yes, much of the action takes place in Fairyland, which
>is a first for the Discworld,
The dream-spider dromes are a very Faery creation, one that Lovecraft
would have appreciated (and probably appropriated).
> and the Nac Mac Feegle have a somewhat
>more prominent role
Nice to see them fleshed out more. They speak my kind of language.
Crivens. (Did they actually say "Help ma Boab" at any point? I didn't
notice.)
>--but the natures of witchcraft and the Queen are
>themes that have already been done in the Discworld books, and without
>this additional dimension, I think I would find this book somewhat
>stale.
>
>Okay, except for the Nac Mac Feegle, who I can't help but find amusing
>no matter what the context (even if they'd run away from me because
>I'm a lawyer).
The clan's gonnagle is an inspired creation.
"He's probably their battle poet, too."
"You mean he makes up heroic poems about famous battles?"
"No, no.... When a well-trained gonnagle starts to recite, the enemy's
ears explode."
>
>If you like prior Pratchett novels, I recommend picking up this one as
>well.
It's fun, but it's weak compared to "The Amazing Maurice" but after the
dark emotional powerhouse of "Night Watch" we were due something lighter
in tone. Waiting impatiently for the next one, of course, but I'd rate
this one as 6 out of 10. It's still a Pratchett, of course, which makes
that six a must-read anyway, but you knew that.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Thomas Yan
> [Edited and reposted from the book log.]
>
> Terry Pratchett's latest Discworld novel is _The Wee Free Men_. I
> hadn't realized this had already been published, and came across it by
> accident while browsing the YA section of my local Borders. It didn't
> appear in the SF section at all, so if you have trouble finding this,
> check the YA section. (And then buy _Sorcery and Cecilia_ while you're
> there--but that's another post.)
-snip-
Sorry, I'm waiting for paperback to buy SaC. Ditto for _Abhorsen_. I
just got McKillip's _The Changeling Sea_. I went to the bookstore
some weeks ago and looked on the SF shelves and didn't see it, and
peeked at the YA shelves and didn't see it. I asked for help, and
they couldn't find it either, although the computer listed it as
present. I asked could it be in transit and was told, yes, the system
was almost that stupid -- if a shipment came in two parts and the
first part arrived, it thought the second part of the shipment had
also arrived. So I put in a special order.
Broken record: I'm waiting for Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy to
come out. Amazon isn't listing the reprints yet. :(
Kate Nepveu
>Kate Nepveu wrote:
>> One of the things I particularly like about this book is Tiffany's
>> relationship with her grandmother, recently deceased and one of the
>> two former witches of the Chalk. (The other is dying as the book
>> opens, which is why the Chalk is vulnerable to the Queen's
>> incursions.)
>*blink* Other witch?
The former kelda.
>> The book uses flashbacks heavily to portray this
>> relationship, which is comforting, loving, and yet filled with awkward
>> moments and unspoken regrets; I found the portrayal realistic and
>> refreshing.
>I found those passages slightly awkward, mainly when it starts
>like a memory, and then Miss Tick responds to the last line.
Yes, it was a bit confusing whether she was mindreading or responding
to a spoken version or what.
Kate Nepveu
>In article <61i5dv4k3sf0jnt5j...@news.verizon.net>, Kate
>Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes
>>[Edited and reposted from the book log.]
>>Terry Pratchett's latest Discworld novel is _The Wee Free Men_.
[...]
>>As I've said before, Pratchett's YAs are basically the same as his
>>adult novels except that they're shorter, darker, and have chapters. I
>>think of _The Wee Free Men_ as _Lords and Ladies II: The Next
>>Generation_.
> This seems to be a recap book in many ways; _Lords and Ladies_ provides
>the protagonist with an antagonist. Tiffany is another overly-wise
>seventh son/daughter of a seventh daughter/son directly out of the mould
>that produced Eskarina in _Equal Rites_; indeed she spends some time
>considering how to get into Witches School (which, in her mind,
>resembles a Certain Other School of Wizardry from another popular (but
>shorter) series of best-selling juvenile fantasy books).
Yes, I'd thought that too.
>Granny
>Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg appear at the end to wrap things up in an an
>unnecessary coda reminiscent of _Maskerade_.
Well, Miss Tick had to be insufficient for the task, otherwise we
wouldn't have had a plot, and thus she had to bring back help, and why
make up new characters when old will do?
Also, Miss Tick isn't a match for Tiffany (all her dithering about
chalk made that clear). So I was okay with that bit.
>I was a little disappointed
>Death did not interject some HOLLOW CAPITALS and the Luggage didn't trip
>its way through the plot pursuing a terrified Rincewind. Maybe the next
>book.
...is this the first Discworld book where Death does not make an
appearance?
Andrew Plotkin
>> [Edited and reposted from the book log.]
>>
>> Terry Pratchett's latest Discworld novel is _The Wee Free Men_. I
>> hadn't realized this had already been published, and came across it by
>> accident while browsing the YA section of my local Borders. It didn't
>> appear in the SF section at all, so if you have trouble finding this,
>> check the YA section. (And then buy _Sorcery and Cecilia_ while you're
>> there--but that's another post.)
> -snip-
> Sorry, I'm waiting for paperback to buy SaC.
The new cover art is fantastic.
> Ditto for _Abhorsen_. I
> just got McKillip's _The Changeling Sea_.
Three good books. I got impatient about _Abhorsen_ (and I found the
other two as used paperbacks), but they'll all be still good when you
get to them.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Andrew Plotkin
> Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <61i5dv4k3sf0jnt5j...@news.verizon.net>, Kate
>>Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes
>>>[Edited and reposted from the book log.]
>>>Terry Pratchett's latest Discworld novel is _The Wee Free Men_.
> [...]
>>>As I've said before, Pratchett's YAs are basically the same as his
>>>adult novels except that they're shorter, darker, and have chapters. I
>>>think of _The Wee Free Men_ as _Lords and Ladies II: The Next
>>>Generation_.
>> This seems to be a recap book in many ways; _Lords and Ladies_ provides
>>the protagonist with an antagonist. Tiffany is another overly-wise
>>seventh son/daughter of a seventh daughter/son directly out of the mould
>>that produced Eskarina in _Equal Rites_; indeed she spends some time
>>considering how to get into Witches School (which, in her mind,
>>resembles a Certain Other School of Wizardry from another popular (but
>>shorter) series of best-selling juvenile fantasy books).
> Yes, I'd thought that too.
Certainly.
I really felt that Pratchett wanted to *redo* _Equal Rites_, because
after twenty years he wasn't happy with the way he'd done it the first
time. Notably (I think I said this a few weeks ago), _Equal Rites_ is
about learning magic; *as opposed to* _WFM_, which is about learning
to be a witch.
(Comparisons with other juvenile fantasy series can go unsaid. :)
Robert Carnegie
Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>Tiffany is another overly-wise
>seventh son/daughter of a seventh daughter/son directly out of the mould
>that produced Eskarina in _Equal Rites_;
Eighth/eighth, presumably, but all right; except that Eskarina had
masculine, wizard magic to come to terms with, and presumably
that isn't the case this time?
> indeed she spends some time
>considering how to get into Witches School (which, in her mind,
>resembles a Certain Other School of Wizardry from another popular (but
>shorter) series of best-selling juvenile fantasy books).
That sounds like good fun. Note that the other series is shorter
but the books are longer and longer.
>I was a little
>disappointed
>Death did not interject some HOLLOW CAPITALS
YES. REGRETTABLE. ALTHOUGH IT COULD BE SEEN AS A
PLEASANT RELIEF IF HIS DUTY DID NOT CALL HIM ONTO THE
PAGE IN THE COURSE OF THIS WORK.
I was feeling really down lately, and not sleeping, and I looked at
my bookshelf of _Doctor Who_ novelisations, and could I find a
single one that didn't involve some sort of monstrosity dealing
horrible death to as many innocent victims as it can, until the
Doctor turns up to put a stop to it? Fans note, though, my
collection isn't complete ;-)
>and the Luggage didn't trip its way through the plot pursuing
>a terrified Rincewind. Maybe the next book.
Readers note that Rincewind is no longer terrified /of/ the
Luggage; only cautiously respectful. But he's usually terrified of
and running away from /something/, and the Luggage is hard put
to it to keep up.
I believe I've heard Pratchett say in an interview that he was
encouraged (by his publisher?) to stick with Rincewind as
principal character instead of writing about other people with
whom readers weren't familiar, and he was happy to be proved
right after all in that he's got many more different, interesting
books out than he could have done if he'd stuck to one anti-hero.
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@excite.com at large
--
"AUTO SPARES (ROYSTON) would like to give our hearty
congratulation to Geoffrey Reid, on cocking up fifty years
with the company." - Royston Crow
John Andrew Fairhurst
kne...@steelypips.org says...
> ...is this the first Discworld book where Death does not make an
> appearance?
>
If I could be sure he didn't appear in _Night Watch_ I'd say yes. As I
can't I'll have to say 'Maybe' :-)
--
John Fairhurst
In Association with Amazon worldwide:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk/Books/Pratchett/
The Discworld
Thomas Yan
> Here, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes:
>
-snip-
>>> check the YA section. (And then buy _Sorcery and Cecilia_ while you're
>>> there--but that's another post.)
>
>> Sorry, I'm waiting for paperback to buy SaC.
>
> The new cover art is fantastic.
I assume that it will be reused on the paperback, although I suppose
it will be scaled down and possibly even cropped.
>> Ditto for _Abhorsen_. I
>> just got McKillip's _The Changeling Sea_.
>
> Three good books. I got impatient about _Abhorsen_ (and I found the
> other two as used paperbacks), but they'll all be still good when you
> get to them.
I have Lirael and Sabriel in mmpb and am waiting for the mmpb of
Abhorsen before starting the trilogy. I was afraid that if I started
before that, like you I would get impatient and go for hc.
I like the cover of the used copy I have of TCS more than the new
cover, but the new cover is nice enough. I did not love the book the
first time through, but decided to buy it anyway because: 1) I do that
with some used books to show my appreciation that they are back in
print, 2) it is McKillip, and 3) it is Firebird Books, whom I
appreciate for doing reprints, including the eagerly awaited Secret
Country books.
Here are my random thoughts on _The Changeling Sea_. Page numbers are
for the reprint edition. (I seem to have left my used copy at my
parents' house, so I can't provide those numbers, too.)
***spoilers***
** ch5
p45: {oh yeah, now I remember: the magician was a cool dude}
he seemed to be listening to things she had not said
# "This # is a periwinkle"
p46: "I see. It's a secret"
p49: "The King? Did he see it?" # How did he know to ask that?
** ch6
p53: "Oops" {hee!}
p59: "If you listen hard enough, you begin to hear things...
the sorrow beneath the smile, the voice within the fire-dragon,
the secret in the young floor-scrubber's voice,
behind all the talk of gold...."
p60: "Will you let me help?" #
"Yes # But be careful. You must always be careful of the sea."
** ch7
p69: [sea-dragon quotes Lyo] "oops, sorry" {hee!}
p72: {transformation into a mute animal, like in McKillip's Firebird book}
** ch8
p84: "Your face is talking. I can't hear it." {hm, I know that feeling, plus
I get the impression sometimes I don't even realize the face is talking}
** ch10
p107: {Peri's beautiful (transformed) hexes made me think of
the Signs in Cooper's the Dark is Rising series}
** ch12
p121: {I was reminded (again?) where else the sea is important in a McKillip
story: the Riddlemaster trilogy/book}
p128: {what am I, Peri, doing?} "I'm not paying attention"
** ch13
p134: "Aidon" {like Riddlemaster's Eidolen? If so, is there Sec somewhere?}
** thoughts afterward
+ I had forgotten that Peri doesn't end up with Kir, but with Lyo.
Cool.
+ I didn't remember what was up with the old woman who disappeared. I
was wondering this time if she would turn out to be a relative or
guardian of Kir. I guess the implication is that she is like Peri
in old age, with a lover from the land under the sea who came for at
the end of their lives. I wonder why her hexes didn't work, but
Peri's did. Was it because she was old and thus her powers were
weak? Or did they work after all -- she did disappear.
+ If earlier Peri had been listening to things, would she have been
able to help her mother?
+ Why didn't Lyo listen (more closely) and thereby learn that Peri was
so powerful? He seemed to see her power after learning of it, but
why didn't he listen/look for it? I wouldn't expect him to go
around looking at everyone for power, but wasn't it clear that Peri
was involved and hence worth a closer look?
+ Related to that: Careful listening seems pretty close to telepathy
and hence an invasion of privacy. So why didn't Lyo seem creepy,
stalkerish?
J.B. Moreno
> ** ch13
> p134: "Aidon" {like Riddlemaster's Eidolen? If so, is there Sec somewhere?}
The Riddlemasters "Sec" was obviously shorthand for "Sector" (which is
part of the wave given to science fiction in that series).
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
Sten Thaning
> > ...is this the first Discworld book where Death does not make an
> > appearance?
> >
>
> If I could be sure he didn't appear in _Night Watch_ I'd say yes. As I
> can't I'll have to say 'Maybe' :-)
He appears in _Night Watch_. In the interrogation room, IIRC.
- Sten
Daniel Silevitch
Andrew Fairhurst <jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <6t18dvspb9dl3eevs...@news.verizon.net>,
> kne...@steelypips.org says...
> > ...is this the first Discworld book where Death does not make an
> > appearance?
> >
>
> If I could be sure he didn't appear in _Night Watch_ I'd say yes. As I
> can't I'll have to say 'Maybe' :-)
Death did appear in Night Watch, when <rot13> Ivzrf rg ny. gbepu gur
frperg cbyvpr urnqdhnegref.</rot13>
-dms
Robert Carnegie
<erky...@eblong.com> writes
>I really felt that Pratchett wanted to *redo* _Equal Rites_, because
>after twenty years he wasn't happy with the way he'd done it the first
>time. Notably (I think I said this a few weeks ago), _Equal Rites_ is
>about learning magic; *as opposed to* _WFM_, which is about learning
>to be a witch.
Headology?
But I'm not going with you here. _Equal Rites_, in this reader's
opinion, is fine. And quite a few people have here expressed
/relative/ dissatisfaction with _The Wee Free Men_ - whereas I
eagerly wait to see what my sister will give me for this year's
birthday and Christmas (it's usually a Pratchett, the old chap being
conveniently prolific)..
If it's really twenty years, maybe it's that he felt entitled now to write
a book with a similar theme to _ER_? Although if the theme is
Education of the Young, Susan De'Ath is a schoolmistress, and
more than one of the other Discworld books has spent significant
time in the apprenticeship system of Ankh-Morpork's Guilds.
Elaine Thompson
>Here are my random thoughts on _The Changeling Sea_. Page numbers are
>for the reprint edition. (I seem to have left my used copy at my
>parents' house, so I can't provide those numbers, too.)
>
>***spoilers***
>
>
>
>
>
>
>** ch13
>p134: "Aidon" {like Riddlemaster's Eidolen? If so, is there Sec somewhere?}
>
>** thoughts afterward
>
>+ I had forgotten that Peri doesn't end up with Kir, but with Lyo.
> Cool.
>
>+ I didn't remember what was up with the old woman who disappeared. I
> was wondering this time if she would turn out to be a relative or
> guardian of Kir. I guess the implication is that she is like Peri
> in old age, with a lover from the land under the sea who came for at
> the end of their lives. I wonder why her hexes didn't work, but
> Peri's did. Was it because she was old and thus her powers were
> weak? Or did they work after all -- she did disappear.
>
And Peri may not have been able to tell if they worked. She didn't
know she herself was working magic, after all.
>+ If earlier Peri had been listening to things, would she have been
> able to help her mother?
I suspect not. Her mother's problem seems to have been based in
grief, which has to be lived through.
>
>+ Why didn't Lyo listen (more closely) and thereby learn that Peri was
> so powerful? He seemed to see her power after learning of it, but
> why didn't he listen/look for it? I wouldn't expect him to go
> around looking at everyone for power, but wasn't it clear that Peri
> was involved and hence worth a closer look?
He did keep coming around her. I think the magic was confused, as
Peri was, and as she'd made it in her hex, so he couldn't tell what
was going on, but something drew him back to her. Not just
attraction.
>+ Related to that: Careful listening seems pretty close to telepathy
> and hence an invasion of privacy. So why didn't Lyo seem creepy,
> stalkerish?
McKillip's a good writer? She wrote him so that he listened to learn
and to help. Not creepy.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Thomas Yan
> On Thu, 29 May 2003 01:11:08 -0400, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>***spoilers***
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
[slightly rearranged]
>>+ If earlier Peri had been listening to things, would she have been
>> able to help her mother?
>
> I suspect not. Her mother's problem seems to have been based in
> grief, which has to be lived through.
Agreed. That makes me revise my thoughts: Would she have been more
patient and understanding with/of her mother, and realized she just
had to wait it out.
>>+ I didn't remember what was up with the old woman who disappeared. I
>> was wondering this time if she would turn out to be a relative or
>> guardian of Kir. I guess the implication is that she is like Peri
>> in old age, with a lover from the land under the sea who came for at
>> the end of their lives. I wonder why her hexes didn't work, but
>> Peri's did. Was it because she was old and thus her powers were
>> weak? Or did they work after all -- she did disappear.
>
> And Peri may not have been able to tell if they worked. She didn't
> know she herself was working magic, after all.
>>+ Why didn't Lyo listen (more closely) and thereby learn that Peri was
>> so powerful? He seemed to see her power after learning of it, but
>> why didn't he listen/look for it? I wouldn't expect him to go
>> around looking at everyone for power, but wasn't it clear that Peri
>> was involved and hence worth a closer look?
>
> He did keep coming around her. I think the magic was confused, as
> Peri was, and as she'd made it in her hex, so he couldn't tell what
> was going on, but something drew him back to her. Not just
> attraction.
Oh, yeah, right (to both of your paragraphs above)! Lyo did say the
magic was confused, that things didn't make sense. OK, I agree it's
not so surprising Lyo didn't just figure it all out, and that Peri was
not necessarily the best judge of whether magic was working or not.
(Somehow as I was typing this post, I wondered if one of the
enchantments the old woman/Peri tried was to make a waterproof basket
out of grass/seaweed, like I vaguely think Raedarle tried in _Heir of
Sea and Fire_.)
>>+ Related to that: Careful listening seems pretty close to telepathy
>> and hence an invasion of privacy. So why didn't Lyo seem creepy,
>> stalkerish?
>
> McKillip's a good writer? She wrote him so that he listened to learn
> and to help. Not creepy.
Somehow I had forgotten that power does not equal abuse of power, that
the ability to do something doesn't mean you always worry that it will
be exercised.
David Eppstein
> (Somehow as I was typing this post, I wondered if one of the
> enchantments the old woman/Peri tried was to make a waterproof basket
> out of grass/seaweed, like I vaguely think Raedarle tried in _Heir of
> Sea and Fire_.)
Not sure what you're remembering here. Maybe I'll have to reread that
one again, but the only basket I remember her making was the one to hold
the jewel she made glare like the sun, and I don't think the basket
itself was magical.
--
David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science
Andrew Plotkin
> In article <m1he7a5...@rcn.com>, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> (Somehow as I was typing this post, I wondered if one of the
>> enchantments the old woman/Peri tried was to make a waterproof basket
>> out of grass/seaweed, like I vaguely think Raedarle tried in _Heir of
>> Sea and Fire_.)
> Not sure what you're remembering here. Maybe I'll have to reread that
> one again, but the only basket I remember her making was the one to hold
> the jewel she made glare like the sun, and I don't think the basket
> itself was magical.
I think Thomas is remembering two different small-spells Raederle
did... weaving a net of grass to tangle the feet, and making a
leaf-lined hole (filled with water) look like a lake. The sun-lit
jewel was yet a third working. All the same sort of thing, of course.
I haven't re-read _TCS_ in a while, but I don't remember any of that
sort of small-magic. Things were... more flamboyant, and not
illusionary.
Elaine Thompson
<epps...@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
>In article <m1he7a5...@rcn.com>, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>> (Somehow as I was typing this post, I wondered if one of the
>> enchantments the old woman/Peri tried was to make a waterproof basket
>> out of grass/seaweed, like I vaguely think Raedarle tried in _Heir of
>> Sea and Fire_.)
>
>Not sure what you're remembering here.
When she runs away to visit the pig woman we see her making a net of
grass. Maybe that's what Thomas was thinking of.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Thomas Yan
> In article <m1he7a5...@rcn.com>, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>> (Somehow as I was typing this post, I wondered if one of the
>> enchantments the old woman/Peri tried was to make a waterproof basket
>> out of grass/seaweed, like I vaguely think Raedarle tried in _Heir of
^^^^^^^^
(Damn, it's "Raederle" <-- "er", not "ar".)
>> Sea and Fire_.)
>
> Not sure what you're remembering here.
My memory was that offstage, in the past, she remembered having done
it, perhaps mentioning it to Lyra...
> Maybe I'll have to reread that one again,
(what a hardship! :)
> but the only basket I remember her making was the one to hold the
> jewel she made glare like the sun, and I don't think the basket
> itself was magical.
...Andrew clarified the flashy things she did onstage, but I decided
to flip through the Ace trade omnibus reprint to see if I could find
what I thought I remembered. I didn't see her mention it later, but
in Chapter 1 of HoSaF (pp196-197 in the omnibus), she is actually
doing it onstage:
Three days later, she sat beside the pig-woman # weaving grass
blades into a net.# [Both had inherited knowledge from Madir.]
"Am I doing this right?"
The pig-woman # nodded. "You could carry water in that"
This seems to me like something Peri might have tried in TCS.
Elaine Thompson
>...Andrew clarified the flashy things she did onstage, but I decided
>to flip through the Ace trade omnibus reprint to see if I could find
>what I thought I remembered. I didn't see her mention it later, but
>in Chapter 1 of HoSaF (pp196-197 in the omnibus), she is actually
>doing it onstage:
>
> Three days later, she sat beside the pig-woman # weaving grass
> blades into a net.# [Both had inherited knowledge from Madir.]
> "Am I doing this right?"
This reminds me - they couldn't both be related to Madir, really,
given who the pig woman actually is. Could they? I had the
impression Madir came after the wizards vanished. So I've thought the
pig woman used Madir as an excuse for her visible small powers.
>
> The pig-woman # nodded. "You could carry water in that"
>
>This seems to me like something Peri might have tried in TCS.
True.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Thomas Yan
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> writes:
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2003 13:14:27 -0400, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>...Andrew clarified the flashy things she did onstage, but I decided
>>to flip through the Ace trade omnibus reprint to see if I could find
>>what I thought I remembered. I didn't see her mention it later, but
>>in Chapter 1 of HoSaF (pp196-197 in the omnibus), she is actually
>>doing it onstage:
>>
>> Three days later, she sat beside the pig-woman # weaving grass
>> blades into a net.# [Both had inherited knowledge from Madir.]
>> "Am I doing this right?"
>
> This reminds me - they couldn't both be related to Madir, really,
> given who the pig woman actually is. Could they? I had the
> impression Madir came after the wizards vanished. So I've thought the
> pig woman used Madir as an excuse for her visible small powers.
I think you're right about that. Speaking of wizards, what do we know
of their children except for Hugin? Do we even know one way or the
other about whether they had other children?
Elaine Thompson
>[Now we're talking about Heir of Sea and Fire / Riddlemaster]
>
SNIP
>>>
>>> Three days later, she sat beside the pig-woman # weaving grass
>>> blades into a net.# [Both had inherited knowledge from Madir.]
>>> "Am I doing this right?"
>>
>> This reminds me - they couldn't both be related to Madir, really,
>> given who the pig woman actually is. Could they? I had the
>> impression Madir came after the wizards vanished. So I've thought the
>> pig woman used Madir as an excuse for her visible small powers.
>
>I think you're right about that. Speaking of wizards, what do we know
>of their children except for Hugin? Do we even know one way or the
>other about whether they had other children?
Death - in his more or less immortal harper persona - mumbles
something about being born in Lungold at a time when wizards, kings
etc. passed through, but none of them ever claimed him. The
implication is that wizards could have kids - or at least that no one
ever decided they couldn't, and he might have been one of them, but no
one knows.
What makes Suth and Nun and the others different from Har, Danaan Isig
and the Morgul? The latter three all have magic, inheritable magic,
no less, and children. Is it the landrule that makes a difference?
Or is it that wizards have more flexible power, can do more things
with it, while Har and Danaan are limited to a *very* long life, plus
shape-shifting, and the Morgul to long sight.
I need to reread the trilogy. Thinking of these characters reminds me
how much I liked spending time with them.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Thomas Yan
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2003 17:11:00 -0400, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>[Now we're talking about Heir of Sea and Fire / Riddlemaster]
>>I think you're right about that. Speaking of wizards, what do we know
>>of their children except for Hugin? Do we even know one way or the
>>other about whether they had other children?
>
> Death - in his more or less immortal harper persona - mumbles
> something about being born in Lungold at a time when wizards, kings
> etc. passed through, but none of them ever claimed him.
I'm not sure how mcuh we can read into that.
> The implication is that wizards could have kids -
Maybe...
> or at least that
> no one ever decided they couldn't, and he might have been one of
> them, but no one knows.
...right. Wizards were mysterious, so people weren't sure if they
could have kids or not. Maybe there were no known cases (none,
anyway, that we heard about except for Hugin, and I get the impression
he was born after the wizards disappeared), but to be on the safe
side, assume they could have kids.
> What makes Suth and Nun and the others different from Har, Danaan Isig
> and the Morgul?
Interesting! I hadn't really thought about that before. I guess my
original impression is that wizards were (almost) a difference race
from men, but now that I think about it, that doesn't seem to make
sense. Where would they have come from? Er, maybe that's not a
fruitful direction to investigate -- where did humans come from?
> The latter three all have magic, inheritable magic, no less, and
> children. Is it the landrule that makes a difference? Or is it
> that wizards have more flexible power, can do more things with it,
> while Har and Danaan are limited to a *very* long life, plus
> shape-shifting, and the Morgul to long sight.
Landrule does seem to be a special kind of magic.
Tangent:
"Inheritable" doesn't seem quite the right word to me. Oh, wait,
scratch that. I misread that as "inherited". Hm. Do I like
"hereditary" better? I'm confused. Um, lessee. It *usually* goes to
the oldest surviving child, but not always. I guess "hereditary"
fits.
OK, I'm back from the tangent.
My impression is that Har has landrule magic *and* knows some
wizardry. There seems to be a strong instinctive (and
intuitionistic?) component to landrule; it appears to seep into your
knowledge base and you just *know* how to do things. Perhaps wizardry
is more deliberate; skills and knowledge you have to work at to
learn/acquire.
Since Raederle and the pig woman could do small things and that didn't
appear to be a huge deal, and many people could do a Great Shout, it
appears lots of people know some bits of magic or magical skills.
Perhaps the wizards had some epiphany that let them greatly expand
their power, and then of course they set up Lungold, where presumably
they increased their abilities many fold.
> I need to reread the trilogy. Thinking of these characters reminds me
> how much I liked spending time with them.
:)
Andrew Plotkin
> Since Raederle and the pig woman could do small things and that didn't
> appear to be a huge deal, and many people could do a Great Shout, it
> appears lots of people know some bits of magic or magical skills.
But remember that the Great Shout is instinct, not learned.
> Perhaps the wizards had some epiphany that let them greatly expand
> their power, and then of course they set up Lungold, where presumably
> they increased their abilities many fold.
Or else "wizards" is just what everyone started calling people who
were interested enough in magic to learn a lot of it.
I guess, once you learn enough magic to extend your life, you have
time to learn a lot more than most people. Assuming you're not more
interested in something else.
Thomas Lindgren
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> writes:
> Or else "wizards" is just what everyone started calling people who
> were interested enough in magic to learn a lot of it.
I can imagine it:
Huh huh, that guy's like a total wizard. Yeah, he sucks. He he he he.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
Elaine Thompson
>Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2003 17:11:00 -0400, Thomas Yan <tk...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>>[Now we're talking about Heir of Sea and Fire / Riddlemaster]
>
>>>I think you're right about that. Speaking of wizards, what do we know
>>>of their children except for Hugin? Do we even know one way or the
>>>other about whether they had other children?
>
>...right. Wizards were mysterious, so people weren't sure if they
>could have kids or not.
Right. Morgon says no one knows when the wizards were born, so who
knows much else personal about them either.
>Maybe there were no known cases (none,
>anyway, that we heard about except for Hugin, and I get the impression
>he was born after the wizards disappeared),
Same here, or Har would have known of him before he found him among
the vesta. I also get the impression Hugin is half wizard, half
vesta.
>
>> What makes Suth and Nun and the others different from Har, Danaan Isig
>> and the Morgul?
>
>Interesting! I hadn't really thought about that before. I guess my
>original impression is that wizards were (almost) a difference race
>from men, but now that I think about it, that doesn't seem to make
>sense. Where would they have come from? Er, maybe that's not a
>fruitful direction to investigate -- where did humans come from?
Unknown. There's mention of the Years of Settlement and humans
coming to the realm of the High One, but nothing about where they were
before that. And Danan says Yrth came to him about the time of Years
of Settlement, from some place Danan had never heard of. The wizards
seem to have been there when the humans arrived, or came about the
same time. It certainly seems as if Har and Danan were among the
first humans, and they also met the wizards, Yrth and Suth very early
in their time in the Realm.
Is it the landrule that gives Danan and Har and the others their power
and long life? Or do they have the landrule because they had an
affinity for magic in some fashion which enabled them to take it? But
then, what about An, where kings conquered each other and claimed the
landrule they hadn't previously had?
I lean toward the affinity explanation.
One difference between the landrulers and the wizards is that the
rulers are considered human, the wizards' status is less certain.
>
>> The latter three all have magic, inheritable magic, no less, and
>> children. Is it the landrule that makes a difference? Or is it
>> that wizards have more flexible power, can do more things with it,
>> while Har and Danaan are limited to a *very* long life, plus
>> shape-shifting, and the Morgul to long sight.
>
>Landrule does seem to be a special kind of magic.
>
>Tangent:
>
> "Inheritable" doesn't seem quite the right word to me. Oh, wait,
> scratch that. I misread that as "inherited". Hm. Do I like
> "hereditary" better? I'm confused. Um, lessee. It *usually* goes to
> the oldest surviving child, but not always.
and what about Ylon, who wasn't even the son of a landruler?
At some wordless level this all makes sense, but if I try to pin it
down I fail. It makes for a rich and evocative story, though!
>
>My impression is that Har has landrule magic *and* knows some
>wizardry. There seems to be a strong instinctive (and
>intuitionistic?) component to landrule; it appears to seep into your
>knowledge base and you just *know* how to do things. Perhaps wizardry
>is more deliberate; skills and knowledge you have to work at to
>learn/acquire.
Peven certainly learned it somewhere. He killed his seven sons with
misused wizardry.
>
>Since Raederle and the pig woman could do small things and that didn't
>appear to be a huge deal,
It's credited to Ylon and Madir in Raederle.
>and many people could do a Great Shout, it
>
As Andrew points out, it's instinct. Or to quote Rood "I know the
Great Shout is forbidden, , but it's a thing of impulse rather than
premeditation, and I was overwhelmed by impulse. Please shut up" I
love that line - it captures Rood's precision and arrogance so well.
/tangent - someone's threading is broken, I'm getting your messages as
one thread, and Andrew's answers as another.
/end
>appears lots of people know some bits of magic or magical skills.
They aren't called wizards, though. They may know magic, and even
misuse wizardry as Peven did, but they aren't called wizards. Closest
we get is people like the witch Madir who seem to be thought of as a
different class of magic worker all together.
Maybe if they lived a couple thousand years people would call them
wizards.
>Perhaps the wizards had some epiphany that let them greatly expand
>their power, and then of course they set up Lungold, where presumably
>they increased their abilities many fold.
>
Andrew suggested
>Or else "wizards" is just what everyone started calling people who
>were interested enough in magic to learn a lot of it.
I think not. I think wizards are mysterious people of unknown origin
and *lots* of free, unbound to the land, magic. Danan and Har and the
Morgul and the Kings of An all had magic somehow related to their
responsibilities as rulers.
>
>I guess, once you learn enough magic to extend your life, you have
>time to learn a lot more than most people. Assuming you're not more
>interested in something else.
Maybe. OTOH, Danan and Har seem to have had only one wife each and
she's still alive. They're long-lived too, but not otherwise overtly
magical.
I don't know.
<shrug>
It works in the story and it's fun to talk about.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Anna Mazzoldi
"Robert Carnegie" <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:8xckAEAx...@redjac.demon.co.uk...
>
> If it's really twenty years, maybe it's that he felt entitled now to write
> a book with a similar theme to _ER_? Although if the theme is
> Education of the Young, Susan De'Ath is a schoolmistress,
It's not the same theme. The _plot_ is similar ("Girl learns magic"), but
the theme is different. _WFM_ is not primarily about education: it's about
growing up (which doesn't happen in faerie: but even the little brother is
growing up at the end); it's about finding self and roots (this is linked to
the later Witches books, and I think it's what makes Granny's appearance at
the end not entirely gratuitous -- she's another person who always knows
exactly where she is and who she is); it's about responsibility (in the
sense of taking responsibility, or "ownership", of one's actions; but also
of one's world); and it's about death (the granny, and the Feegles' heaven).
Very good themes for a childrens' book -- which this is, much more than
_ER_.
Also, of course (like many of the later Pratchett books), it's about the
importance of First Sight and Second Thoughts.
The education theme is in a sense more subtle: it _shows_ (rather than
telling) that learning is fun and worthwhile (it can be worth a whole egg or
a couple of carrots, even); that thinking and reading are Good Things; that
long/strange words are fun; that education is power (the lawyers); and that
there are many things to be learned outside of school, or by using school
for your own purposes.
As you might guess, I really liked this book. I didn't find it inferior to
_Maurice_. There may be an element of personal relevance (there usually is
in my appreciation of books): the protagonist is so much like me as a child,
and she's going through some stuff that I'm going through now (at a much
later age...) ;-))
Ciao,
Anna
"Another and larger part of Tiffany's brain was thinking of the word
'susurrus'. It was a word that not many people have thought about, ever. As
her fingers rubbed the trout under its chin she rolled the word round and
round in her head.
Susurrus ... according to her grandmother's dictionary, it meant [....]
She'd read the dictionary all the way through. No one told her you weren't
supposed to."
[_WFM_, page 11-12]