CP Correction: Sir William Astley, father of Joan (Astley) Grey
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 284 (sub Astley) identifies the father of
Joan Astley, wife of Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of Ruthin, as "William
(of Astley), Lord Astley, born before 1344/5. He married Joan, da. of
John Willoughby [Lord Willoughby of Eresby]. He d.s.p.m." The editor
provides almost no documentation for these statements and nothing
whatsoever about the life history of William Astley.
That something is amiss in this account seems apparent when one
realizes that Joan Astley was born say 1380/6, whereas her purported
paternal grandmother, Elizabeth (Beauchamp) Astley, was born 1310/5.
While this chronology is possible, it seems highly unlikely. We have
approximately 70 years between the two women. I usually figure on 85
years for three generations. Although this time period is short of
three generations, it is rather long for two.
This past week I checked the records of Joan Astley's father, Sir
William Astley (died 1420). As best I can determine, he first appears
in the records in 1389, when he granted a rent charge in Bentley, co.
Warwick to the collegiate church of Astley. In 1394, he was appointed
justice of the peace for Warwickshire, and thereafter appears
regularly in the records. In 1403 he acquired the manor of Bedworth,
co. Warwick from John de la Hall and his wife, Joan. In 1 Henry V
[1413/4], he and his wife, Margaret, acquired lands formerly belonging
to John Charnels in Astley and elsewhere in Warwickshire. In the same
year, he conveyed property in Bedworth, co. Warwick to himself, his
wife, Margaret, and his daughter and son-in-law, Joan and Reynold
Grey. VCH Warwick indicates he died in 1420, being survived by his
wife, Margaret, who in 1434/5 conveyed property in Coleshill to
Richard Orme. This grant was confirmed by her son-in-law, Reynold
Grey.
Unless I'm missing something, it seems unlikely that Sir William
Astley (died 1420) is the same individual as William Astley, born
before 1345. Rather, it seems more likely that we have two William
Astley's in a row whose life histories have been run together.
As for the earlier William Astley, I find that a Sir William Astley
was granted a license for an oratory in the manor of Weddington, co.
Warwick in 1370, which grant was renewed the following year. He
evidently is the Sir William Astley who VCH Warwick says died in
1387/8, who granted the manor of Wolvey, co. Warwick to his brother,
Giles Astley.
VCH Warwick cites Dugdale, 110 and 117, as a source for the Astley
family. This is evidently Dugdale's Warwickshire, a copy of which
seems not to be available here in Salt Lake City. If anyone has
access to a copy of this book, I'd appreciate it if they could post a
copy of the Astley material here on the newsgroup.
Interestingly, the 1583 visitation of Staffordshire has a pedigree of
the Astley family. It identifies Joan (Astley) Grey's parents as
William de Astley, lord of Astley, knight, and his wife, Catherine
[sic], sister of Baron de Willoughby. Sir William de Astley in turn
is identified as the son of Thomas de Astley and his wife, Elizabeth
Beauchamp. Again, we have one Sir William Astley in this record, not
two. Yet, VCH Warwick has two Sir William Astley's, one dying in
1387/8 and one dying in 1420. Interestingly, VCH Warwick never
connects the two Sir William Astley's in the same account.
As for the Astley-Willoughby marriage, it seems rather certain such a
marriage took place as a William Willoughby, Knt., lord of Willoughby,
appears in several deed records together with Sir William Astley (died
1420). Elsewhere, I also find that Joan Astley, wife of Reynold Grey,
was required to give oath in 1404, on the death of her first husband,
Thomas Raleigh, in the presence of "William de Wilughby and William
Asteley knights." The William de Willoughby involved in these records
is evidently the William de Willoughby, born in 1370, who was 5th Lord
Willoughby of Eresby. He is always named first in the records ahead
of Sir William Astley, which suggests his higher prominence and
greater wealth. Presumably he would be a bit too young to be uncle to
Joan (Astley) Grey, born say 1380/6.
While it is possible that there was only one Sir William Astley who
lived to an advanced age, if so, then the death date reported by VCH
Warwick for the one Sir William Astley in 1387/8 must be an error. On
the other hand, if there were two Sir William Astley's, the question
arises as to which one married Joan or Katherine Willoughby. The
later Sir William Astley had a known wife named Margaret who who
occurs from 1413/4 to 1434/5. Margaret may well have been a younger
second wife. If so, then she would not be the mother of Sir William
Astley's heir, Joan Astley, who was born say 1480/6.
For interest sake, I've included a list of the colonial immigrants who
descend from Joan (Astley) Grey below.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - -
List of colonial immigrants who descend from Joan Astley, wife of
Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of Ruthin:
1. Christopher Batt.
2. Elizabeth Bosvile.
3. Charles Calvert.
4. Matthew Clarkson.
5. Thomas Dudley.
6. Muriel Gurdon.
7. Simon Lynde.
8. Maria Johanna Somerset.
9. Thomas Wingfield.
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas,
Unfortunately, given the information you have found I have more questions
than answers re: reconstructing the immediate parentage of Joan de Astley.
It does seem certain however that she was the heir of William, 4th Lord
Astley - those lands passed with her to her Grey issue.
1. The manor of Astley passed to her eldest son,
Edward, Lord Ferrers of Groby. This was held
by his descendants, the Marquesses of Dorset.
2. Her younger (second) son John has been
identified by Brice Clagett (as I recall)
as holding Barwell, Leics. and also Kempston,
Beds. which apparently later became known
as Kempston Grey/Kempston Grays, and later
as Hastingsbury.
Brice further has identified the said John Grey of Kempston as the father
of Alice Grey, wife of William Knyvett of Buckenham, Norfolk. This would
then add Jane Lowe and her siblings to the list of descendants of Reynold de
Grey and Joan de Astley.
Should I find something more helpful re: the Astley connection, I will
pass that on.
Best regards,
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Douglas Richardson
You're correct that Alice Grey (died 1474), 1st wife of William
Knyvet, Knt., of Buckenham, Norfolk, was the daughter of John Grey,
younger son of Sir Reynold de Grey (died 1440), by his 2nd wife, Joan
Astley. Alice's correct parentage was first identified in print in
the Genealogists' Magazine, 5 (1929): 362-363. Previously, Alice was
thought to have been the daughter of Sir John Grey, the eldest son of
Sir Reynold Grey (died 1440), by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos. This
important correction will appear in the forthcoming Plantagenet
Ancestry. Another immigrant who descends from the younger John Grey
is Simon Lynde, of Massachusetts. His new Grey ancestry will also be
included in the forthcoming book. The immigrant, Muriel Gurdon, also
descends from this line as well.
We have here a case of a man who had two sons of the same name, both
of whom lived to adulthood. And we wanted things simple .....
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake city, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<138.139840...@aol.com>...
Ian Fettes
Could you please advise the mother of Alice Grey by the younger John Grey.
Regards,
Ian
Ian Fettes
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Replyto:fet...@st.net.au
Leo van de Pas
This e-mail of yours is for me very interesting, and important, as at the
moment I am preparing a book on the ancestors of Prince William of Wales and
am considering including these Astley ancestors.
First, you start by quoting CP who gives Joan Willoughby as the mother of
Joan Astley. Then you refer to her as Margaret and thirdly as Catherine
(sic). So what is her name?
You are concerned about the 70-year gap between grandmother, Elizabeth de
Beauchamp, and granddaughter Joan Astley. If grandmother was born 1310/5 she
was married "before 1336/7" CP Vol I page 283,284. Let us assume her son
William was born in the 1336/1345 period, that would make him about 43 or
more when his daughter was born. Especially for that time, it seems he was
"old".
Perhaps we should look at Joan Astley's mother.
CP Vol I page 284, calls her Joan, daughter of John Willoughby (Lord
Willoughby de Eresby) But which John Lord Willoughby?
The first Lord is Robert, but the second and third are both John.
Burke's Peerage 1938 page 118 under Ancaster, tells that John 2nd Lord
Willoughby de Eresby married Joan daughter of Sir Thomas Rosceline, and John
3rd Lord married Cicely de Ufford.
John 2nd Lord was a minor in about 1316, further no usefull dates are given.
CP XII/2 page 658 gives the 2nd Lord as being born 6 January 1303/1304, I
think we can forget about him. His son John 3rd Lord Willoughby was baptised
6 January 1328/9 and married before 1349 Cecily de Ufford. Their son was
born circa 1349.
This means that Joan, Joan Astley's mother, was born 1350/1355.
To be Joan Astley's mother means that she was between 25 and 36 when she
gave birth if Joan Astley was born 1380 to 1386.
Altogether this doesn't sound too unlikely, Joan Astley's father being 43 or
more and her mother between 25 and 36.
Sadly CP Volume XIV doesn't seem to deal with this either.
Can anyone add anything to this?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
As I recall, Alice (Grey) Knyvet's mother was named Elizabeth. I
don't have the page citations, but I believe Elizabeth Grey is
mentioned in George Farnham's work, Leicestershire Medieval Village
Notes, probably under Barwell. I believe she is also mentioned in the
multi-volume set, History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester
by John Nichols, also under Barwell. I've seen both works previously.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
fet...@st.net.au ("Ian Fettes") wrote in message news:<08fb01c24ee7$bda53d10$0101a8c0@FETTES1>...
Douglas Richardson
Below is the way Sir William Astley currently appears in the
unpublished manuscript of Plantagenet Ancestry. I've prepared the
account as if there is only one Sir William Astley. I'm still very
much concerned that VCH Warwick has one Sir William Astley dying c.
1388, yet in another place lets him live onto 1420. This
contradiction needs to be resolved. If there really were two
successive Sir William Astley's, then the account below will need to
be altered.
In answer to your question about Sir William Astley's wives, C.P.
states that Sir William Astley had his daughter, Joan, by his wife,
Joan Willoughby; yet the 1583 Visitation of Staffordshire calls her
Katherine Willoughby. I have no idea which source is correct. The
chronology would suggest that Joan/Katherine Willoughby was the
daughter of John Willoughby, 3rd Lord Willoughby, by Cecily de Ufford.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - -
ASTLEY FAMILY
i. WILLIAM ASTLEY (or ASTELEY), of Astley, Bentley, and Weddington,
co. Warwick, justice of the peace for Warwickshire, son and heir, born
before 1345. He married (1st) JOAN (or KATHERINE) WILLOUGHBY,
daughter of John de Willoughby, 3rd Lord Willoughby of Eresby, by
Cecily, daughter of Robert de Ufford, 1st Earl of Suffolk. They had
one daughter, Joan. He was never summoned to Parliament. In 1370 he
had license for an oratory in his manor at Weddington, co. Warwick,
which license was renewed in 1371. In 1389 he granted a rent charge
of 40s. on his manor of Bentley, co. Warwick to the collegiate church
of Astley, co. Warwick. Sometime in the period, 1384/5-1402/3, he
acquired the manors of Alcott (in Coleshill) and Bedworth, co. Warwick
from John Charnels, Esq., or his heirs. He married (2nd) before
1413/4 MARGARET _____. They had no issue. WILLIAM DE ASTLEY, 4th
Lord Astley, died in 1420. His widow Margaret was living in 1434/5.
References:
Wm. Salt Arch. Soc. 3 (1882): 36 (1583 Vis. Staffordshire) (Astley
pedigree: "Will'm's de Astley D'n's de Astley, miles = Catherine,
soror Baronis de Willoughby"). Wm. Salt Arch. Soc. n.s.1 (1898): 235.
Cal. Patent Rolls, 1399-1401 (1903), pp. 210,565. Cal. Patent Rolls,
1391-1396 (1905), pp. 238,370,436,477. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1401-1405
(1905), pp. 127,138. Desc. Catalogue of Ancient Deeds 5 (1906):
248-249. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1405-1408 (1907), pp. 66,498. Cal.
Patent Rolls, 1408-1413 (1909), pg. 378. VCH Warwick 2 (1908):
117-120. Cal. Patent Rolls, 1413-1416 (1910), pg. 424. C.P. 1
(1910): 284. Cal. Close Rolls, 1402-1405 (1929), pp. 73,401,475.
Cal. Close Rolls, 1405-1409 (1931), pg. 182. Cal. Fine Rolls,
1399-1405 (1931), pp. 255,319. VCH Warwick 4 (1947): 53,179,211; 6
(1951): 17,28,109,283. Paget (1957) 9: 1-2 (sub Astley). Cal. Inq.
Misc. 7 (1968): 25. Cal. of Ancient Deeds - Series B Pt. 3 (List &
Index Soc., vol. 113) (1975): B.9103, B.10662, B.10665, B.10709,
B.10763, B.10765, B.10788. Paget (1977), pg. 466.
Child of William Astley, Knt., by Joan (or Katherine) Willoughby:
a. JOAN ASTLEY, married REYNOLD GREY, Knt., 3rd Lord Grey of Ruthin
[see RUTHIN 9].
leov...@bigpond.com ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<023d01c24ebc$3329f0c0$3798fea9@old>...
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas, Leo, Ian, et al.,
Given that the CP article for the Lords Astley provides no documentation concerning the life of William de Astley, 4th Lord Astley, the only direct evidence found for the parentage of Joan de Astley is that found by Douglas (re: the conveyances of Bedworth, co. Warwick in 1413/4 and of Coleshill, co. Warwick in 1434/5). The possibility exists that Margaret, wife of William de Astley (styled hereafter, William 'the Younger') was not the mother of Joan, but was a second wife as Douglas now shows: however, without the original text of these conveyances, it is uncertain whether these documents would provide a more definite answer.
As to what is ascertainable concerning the early details of William de Astley's life, and that of Joan de Astley, primarily from CP:
1. He was born between 1334 [1] and 1344/5 [2],
although the certainty of the latter date is
not shown in CP.
This is a reasonable range. His father was born no
later than 1316 (father Sir Giles de Astley having
d. in that year), and his mother Elizabeth de
Beauchamp was born between 1310 (the year of her
parents' marriage) and 1315 (the year of Guy de
Beauchamp's death). Further, his sister Alice was
probably a younger sister, born after June 1344,
as that was the birth month of her husband Richard
Champernoun (see SGM posts re: the Champernoun
family).
2. He was probably married to Joan de Willoughby say
1355 (no earlier than 1348, when he could have
been aged 14 at most; no later than say 1362/3,
when he would have been at least 18).
John de Willoughby and Joan Roscelyn were married
before 2 July 1323; their son John de Willoughby
(3rd Lord W.) was born bef. 6 Jan. 1328/9, his
baptismal date (cf. CP, Willoughby). That Joan
de Willoughby would likely have been born between
say 1335, when her mother Joan Roscelyn was aged
between 27 and 30 [3], and 1345 [Joan Roscelyn
then being aged between 37 and 40], is certainly
reasonable.
3. Joan de Astley was born no earlier than 1373, and
no later than 1390.
She was married to Thomas de Raleigh by 1404, in
which year he evidently died, with a son by Joan
(who later dsp). Based on this Joan must have
been no younger than 15 at that time.
She was producing issue with her second husband
Reynold Grey as late as 1416 (Edward) and later
(John Grey, of Kempston & c.). Based on John
Grey's est. birthdate of say 1418, Joan could
not likely have been born earlier than 1373.
Douglas' range of say 1380/6 for Joan's birthdate
is certainly reasonable given these 'constraints'.
While the last observation is still conjecture and not documented fact, it does fit better with the probability that Joan de Astley's mother was Margaret ________ (cf. the conveyance of Bedworth, co. Warwick) and not Joan de Willoughby. Unless there is other evidence to be obtained [e.g., an IPM for William de Astley, say 1387 ?], I would propose the following reconstruction:
Thomas de = Elizabeth John de = Joan
Astley I Beauchamp Willoughby I Roscelyn
_________I____________ ___________I___________
I I I I I
Alice Giles William de = Joan de John de Willoughby
[younger Astley I Willoughby 3rd Lord W.
siblings] d. 1387 I m. by = Cecily d'Ufford
______________I 1355 I
I I
I I
William de Astley = Margaret Robert de
'the younger' I d. aft Willoughby,
b. say 1360/5 ; I 1434/5 4th Lord W.
d. say 1420/1 I I
I I
1) Thomas de = Joan de Astley William de
Raleigh,d. 1404 Willoughby
2) Reynold de = 5th Lord W.
Grey ~ witness to Joan
de Astley's oath
of 1404
* Interestingly, one tidbit from CP that needs
reconciling with the evidence in hand. Vol. I,
p. 284 states of William de Astley,
' He was never sum. to Parl., though
included in several commissions by
Henry IV and Henry VI. '
Given that Henry VI became King following his
father's death in 1422, the statement in VCH
Warwick that this William died in 1420 also
needs revisiting. Or could CP have meant
Henry V instead of VI ?
If William de Astley 'the elder', born say 1340, was being 'included in several commissions' as late as 1422, or even later, it would be quite a feat for a gentleman of eighty-plus years; also, quite an unconscionable imposition. This further lends support for a son, William de Astley 'the Younger', as being the say aged 55-to-60 gentleman of the 15th century commissions in question, and as being the father of Joan de Astley.
Hope this is helpful.
John *
NOTES:
[1] CP, Vol. I, p. 284 note n:
'Thomas Astley and Margaret his wife were living
15 July 1334. (Pat. Rolls). V. G.'
This is noted following the statement that Elizabeth
de Beauchamp was wife of Thomas de Astley before
1336/7; the indication being that Elizabeth was the
second wife.
[2] CP, Vol. I, p. 284 note c (ref. to p. 283 note f).
[3] John de Willoughby, 2nd Lord Willoughby, and husband
of Joan Roscelyn, was born 6 Jan. 1304/5; his wife
would most likely have been born after that date (say
1305), and no later than 1308, when her brother Thomas
succeeded their father Piers (cf. CP - Roscelyn).
* John P. Ravilious
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. You've raised some excellent points.
In regards to the estimated birth date I used for Joan Astley (born
say 1380/6), I found in VCH Warwick that her first husband, Thomas
Raleigh, was born about 1380. Joan and Thomas had two children at
the time of Thomas Raleigh's death in 1404. At least one of these
children (a son) was born prior to Thomas Raleigh's death, that child
being aged 1 in 1404. The other child (a daughter) may well have been
born posthumously. As such, I assume Joan Astley was born sometime in
the period, 1380/1386.
Joan subsequently married (2nd) Sir Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of Ruthin,
by whom she had at least three sons, Edward, Knt., Robert, Esq., and
John, and several daughters, including Constance (wife of John Cressy,
Knt.), Elizabeth (wife of William Calthorpe, Knt.), and Eleanor (wife
of William Lucy, Knt.). I'm fairly sure of the number of sons. It
has been extremely difficult, however, to get an exact count of the
daughters. The same is true for the count of the daughters Sir
Reynold Grey had by his first wife, Margaret Roos.
You're probably correct that there were two Sir William Astley's in a
row, the younger of whom was Joan (Astley) (Raleigh) Grey's father.
However, since C.P., the 1583 Visitation of Stafford, Dugdale's
Baronage, and VCH Warwick all present just one Sir William Astley in
this time frame, I have followed their suit. I'm concerned, however,
that VCH Warwick mentions a Sir William Astley who died in the 1380's,
whereas elsewhere they seemingly have the same individual live onto
1420. I don't know the source for the death date for Sir William
Astley in the 1380's. I suspect it comes from Dugdale's
Warwickshire, which source I haven't seen. If anyone has access to
this source, I'd appreciate it if they would post the information
pertinent to Sir William Astley here on the newsgroup.
At any rate, thanks for your comments and suggestions. They're much
appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<7F7BDCF0.4B44...@aol.com>...
Cristopher Nash
>In regards to the estimated birth date I used for Joan Astley (born
>say 1380/6)
[SNIP]
>Joan subsequently married (2nd) Sir Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of Ruthin,
>by whom she had at least three sons, Edward, Knt., Robert, Esq., and
>John, and several daughters, including Constance (wife of John Cressy,
>Knt.), Elizabeth (wife of William Calthorpe, Knt.)
Just making sure, can we assume that this William & Elizabeth are
quite different from --
| | Sir William Calthorpe
| | b. 30 Jan 1409, Burnham Thorpe, Norf
| | d. 15 Nov 1494
| | & Elizabeth Stapleton
| | b. ca 1441
| | d. 18 Feb 1504/1505
| | m. by 7 Mar 1463/4
?
Cheers, Douglas,
Cris
--
Douglas Richardson
Same Sir William Calthorpe. He married twice. ELizabeth Grey was
his first wife. Elizabeth Stapleton was his second wife. He had
issue by both wives.
DR
c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote in message news:<a05100300b99689ac7200@[10.0.1.2]>...
Cristopher Nash
Many thanks, Douglas - and for understanding my question, which was
ungainly put!
Cris
--