Iaroslav the wise
jl
Anna of Macedonia or Rogneda
thanks
jl
mark harry
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
The Williams Family
Yaroslav the Wise was the son of Vladimir, Veliky Knyaz of Kiev (d. 15 Jul 1015 at Berestovo) and his first wife Rogned of Polotsk (m. 980, d. 1000). See the entries for those years in _The Russian Primary Chronicle_. There is a good English translation of the Laurentian Text by Samuel H. Cross & Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor (Cambridge, MA: The Mediaeval Academy of America, 1953).
Rogned was the daughter of Rogvolod, Knyaz of Polotsk (d. 980) who besides her also had two sons who d. in 980. I am uncertain whether any sources mention him besides the _Primary Chronicle_.
Anna, the second wife of Vladimir, was not "of Macedonia". She was the daughter of Emperor Romanos II (939-963) by his wife Theophano and should more accurately be called "of Byzantium".
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Igor Sklar
Yaroslav's mother was Rogneda of Polotsk. I don't understand how it
could be, conditioned that Vladimir took Rogneda by force in 980,
whilst Yaroslav was born about 978 (he was 76 when he died). However
the case, Yaroslav was the eldest biological son of Vladimir.
Rogneda is not a Slavic name. Her father was Ragnvald of West Gotland,
then of Polotsk (killed 970), the brother of Truggvi Olafson of Norway
(died 965) and the illegitimate son of Olaf Haraldson of Norway (died
934). As you may see, Yaroslav was a great grandson of Harald I
Fairhair (died 931), the first Yngling king of Norway. This explains
why in Norse sagas Vladimir is called a kinsman of Norse King Olaf
Traggvison (who was brought up in Kiev) more than once.
Some folks are in pains to establish their line of descent from
Macedonian Emperors of Byzantium. They assume that Yaroslav was born
in 988 and his mother was Anna of Byzantium. But it's nothing more
than their fantasy.
Respects, Igor
Thierry Stasser
a écrit le 18/02/03 1:41 :
Iaroslav was the son of Vladimir and Rogneda, dau of Rogvolod of Polotzk.
Sources:
The Russian primary Chronicle, ed and transl. by S H CROSS, Harvard Studies
and Notes in Philology and litterature, vol 12, 1930: § 79-80: His lawful
wife was Rogned whom he settled on the Lybed where the village of
Predslavino now stands. By her he had four sons: Isyaslav, Mstislav,
Yaroslav and Vsevolod, and two daughters... (p 181); § 129: 6508 (1000)...In
this year died also Rogned, Yaroslav's mother
The Tver Chronicle, "Letopinsnyi sbornik imenuemyi Tverskoiu letopis'iu, in
Polnoe Sobranie Russkikh Letopisey, vol 15, St Petersburg, 1863, col
112-113: when he concerted and married Princess Anna, Vladimir offered
Rogned freedom and suggested that she remarry. She rejected the offer and
instead annouinced she would become a nun which she did under the name of
Anastasia. Her son Yaroslav, then still a child, witnessed the scene
note that Iaroslav named one of his daughters, presumably the eldest,
Anastasia
I hope this helps
Thierry
pmik
of Norway. Ingelborge was the little daughter of Olaf of Norway
Does anyone can confirm this ?
Thanks
Patrick
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
5a635d65.03021...@posting.google.com...
Todd A. Farmerie
> Rogneda is not a Slavic name. Her father was Ragnvald of West Gotland,
> then of Polotsk (killed 970), the brother of Truggvi Olafson of Norway
> (died 965) and the illegitimate son of Olaf Haraldson of Norway (died
> 934). As you may see, Yaroslav was a great grandson of Harald I
> Fairhair (died 931), the first Yngling king of Norway. This explains
> why in Norse sagas Vladimir is called a kinsman of Norse King Olaf
> Traggvison (who was brought up in Kiev) more than once.
While I will not argue that Rogneda appear to be Scandinavian in
origin, what is the basis for making her father the uncle of
Olaf? To be blunt, I have reservations about the descent of Olaf
Tryggvison from Harald Fairhair (and certainly the various death
dates here are hard to support). Note that another poster,
pmik wrote:
> I have this informations : Rogneda was the daughter Ragnvald and Ingelborge
> of Norway. Ingelborge was the little daughter of Olaf of Norway
This would seem to make Rogneda's mother, and not her father, the
royal kinswoman. What I am wondering is, where does this
connection come from to begin with. Does it 'support' the
relationship between Olaf Tryggvison and Yaroslav, or was it
instead invented to explain this relationship?
taf
Andrey Frizyuk
> I have this informations : Rogneda was the daughter Ragnvald and Ingelborge
> of Norway. Ingelborge was the little daughter of Olaf of Norway
> Does anyone can confirm this ?
> Thanks
> Patrick
>
Hello, Patrick!
I've heard this story several times but also couldn't find any
historical evidence supporting it. There are vague allusions to Norse
sagas, nothing more. Perhaps, someone here knows better.
All best, Andrey
The Williams Family
I have also seen this story before but with no proof. I am inclined to doubt it. As far as I know all that is certainly known of Knyaz Rogvolod is that "he may have been of Scandinavian origin".
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
> "pmik" <patrick....@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message news:<3e52a557$0$7875$626a...@news.free.fr>...
Igor Sklar
> Iaroslav was the son of Vladimir and Rogneda, dau of Rogvolod of Polotzk.
> Sources:
>
> The Russian primary Chronicle, ed and transl. by S H CROSS, Harvard Studies
> and Notes in Philology and litterature, vol 12, 1930: § 79-80: His lawful
> wife was Rogned whom he settled on the Lybed where the village of
> Predslavino now stands. By her he had four sons: Isyaslav, Mstislav,
> Yaroslav and Vsevolod, and two daughters... (p 181); § 129: 6508 (1000)...In
> this year died also Rogned, Yaroslav's mother
>
You shouldn't miss Nestor's statement that Rogvolod/Ragnvald came to
Polotsk "from overseas". Suggestive, isn't it?
Stewart Baldwin
>Rogneda is not a Slavic name. Her father was Ragnvald of West Gotland,
>then of Polotsk (killed 970), the brother of Truggvi Olafson of Norway
>(died 965) and the illegitimate son of Olaf Haraldson of Norway (died
>934). As you may see, Yaroslav was a great grandson of Harald I
>Fairhair (died 931), the first Yngling king of Norway. This explains
>why in Norse sagas Vladimir is called a kinsman of Norse King Olaf
>Traggvison (who was brought up in Kiev) more than once.
The above claim seems extremely doubtful to me, and it looks like it
involves some careless same-name identifications. The father of
Rogneda cannot be identified with someone in the sagas based on name
alone, it looks very suspicious to place a grandson of Harald Fairhair
in West Gotland, and the Norse sources show no siblings for Tryggvi.
What are the specific references that call Olaf a kinsman of Vladimir?
Stewart Baldwin
Art & Wanda Nielsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Iaroslav the wise
> "jl" <zgl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:<b2rvkb$br2$1...@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>...
snip
However
> the case, Yaroslav was the eldest biological son of Vladimir.
>
> Rogneda is not a Slavic name. Her father was Ragnvald of West Gotland,
> then of Polotsk (killed 970), the brother of Truggvi Olafson of Norway
> (died 965) and the illegitimate son of Olaf Haraldson of Norway (died
> 934). As you may see, Yaroslav was a great grandson of Harald I
> Fairhair (died 931), the first Yngling king of Norway. This explains
> why in Norse sagas Vladimir is called a kinsman of Norse King Olaf
> Traggvison (who was brought up in Kiev) more than once.
>
snip
> Respects, Igor
If what you are saying here is
true then Yaroslav could not be the
great grandson of Harald I Fairhair,
but a great great grandson.
Harald I Fairhair gggp.
Olaf Haraldson ggp.
Ragnvald of West Gotland gp.
Rogenda p.
Yaroslav
The Heimskringla saga is on line at
www.sunsite.Berkley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla
is this the Norse saga series you refer to
when you say " Vladimir is called a
kinsman of Norse King Olaf Traggvison"?
Kind regards Art
Igor Sklar
from memory contents of Heimskringla and recreate some of my
conclusions.
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<3E5308BE...@interfold.com>...
>
> While I will not argue that Rogneda appear to be Scandinavian in
> origin...
Ragnvald (pronounced "Rog(n)vold") is translated from the Norse as
"divine power", Ragnheid (pronoucned "Rogned") - as "divine honor".
> pmik wrote:
>
> > I have this informations : Rogneda was the daughter Ragnvald and Ingelborge
> > of Norway. Ingelborge was the little daughter of Olaf of Norway
>
> This would seem to make Rogneda's mother, and not her father, the
> royal kinswoman. What I am wondering is, where does this
> connection come from to begin with.
What do we know about Rogvolod/Ragnvald? According to Nestor, he came
from overseas, i.e. from Scandinavia. He became konung of Polotsk
after 944, because he was not listed among Russian princes and
governors in Russo-Byzantine treaty of 944. He was killed by Vladimir
(according to Nestor) in 980, on his way from Novgorod to Kiev, or
(according to Professor Shakhmatov's "Rozyskaniya o drevneishikh
russkikh letopisnykh svodakh", 1908) in 970, on his way from Kiev to
Novgorod.
What do we know about Rogneda/Ragnhild? She was very haughty about her
princely extraction. When asked by Dobrynia to marry his nephew
Vladimir, she answered that she "would not be under a slave's son".
Polotsk was vitally important as a commerical centre and a key point
on the waterway from Novgorod to Kiev. This offense was used as a
pretext for capture of Polotsk and slaughter of local rulers.
What do we know about Rogvolod/Rogneda's family? Judging from
Rogneda's arrogance, it was a princely family of high repute in her
native Scandinavia. We also know from Heimskringla that all the
Norwegian konungs at the time were descendants of Harald Fairhair (all
others were called jarls).
Several authorities, notably Rydzevskaya ("Ancient Rus and Scandinavia
in 9-14 cent.", 1978), identify Rogneda with Vladimir's Varyangian
wife Olava/Allogia, mentioned in Norse sagas. Snorri tells us that
when Olaf Tryggvason came to Novgorod as criminal runaway Allogia
sheltered him in her house and payed a large fine for him. This is
particularly striking, since Olaf's maternal uncle Sigurd Eyrickson
was one of Vladimir's boyars at the time and would naturally help his
nephew. Allogia/Rogneda's behavior is natural for a kinswoman of Olaf.
How could Ragnvald and Ragnhild be relatives of Olaf Tryggvason and
yet descendants of Harald Fairhair? There are two possiblilies.
Ragnvald could be a half-brother of Tryggvi Olafson, or his wife
(Ingigerd?) could be a sister of Tryggvi. In both cases Rogneda would
be the first cousin of Olaf Tryggvason, and Yaroslav I would be the
second cousin of Olaf's sons (it perfectly suits the evidence of
Northern sagas). The connection of Ragnvald and Tryggvi is further
reinforced by Nestor, who mentiones as Rogvolod's neighbour one prince
Turi who could be Tryggvi himself (he was a frequent guest in Russian
lands).
Now, I'm inclined to think that Ragnvald was Tryggvi's brother rather
than his brother-in-law. Snorri mentiones one Ragnvald the Glorious as
a first cousin of Harald Fairhair. The full name and complex
sobriquets of Ragnvald's father are identical with those of Tryggve's
father Olaf. Apparently, Snorri made some mistake. I'll say more. As
you know, Harald's children were brought up by their mothers and
inherited their lands. With Ragnvald/Rogvolod this custom was
introduced to the House of Rurik: Ragnhild's son Izyaslav was brought
up by his mother in Polotsk and inherited the land of his grandfather.
A proceeding quite exceptional in Russian history!
As for West Gotland, I confused Rogvolod of Polotsk with another
Ragnvald Olafson. I cannot discuss this second Ragnvald here in
details. Suffice it to say that one Ragnvald Olafson is described by
Snorri as yarl of Westergotland who became yarl of Ladoga in 1019. We
know for sure that Ladoga was given by Yaroslav to his wife Ingigerd
as part of their marriage settlement. Is there any connection between
Ingigerd and Ragnvald? The Eymund Saga specifies that Ragnvald's
mother Sfandra was a sister of Ingigerd's grandmother Sigrida the
Proud. Olaf Ragnvaldson ("Uleb") is mentioned in Russian chronicle as
the chief of Yaroslav's guard in 1036. Another son of Ragnvald,
Stenkil Ragnvaldson, became king of Sweden in 1060. His dynasty ruled
Sweden until 1130.
I don't know how others explain the connection of Yaroslav and Harald,
but that's what I think. Any comments are welcome.
Regards, Igor
Todd A. Farmerie
> What do we know about Rogvolod/Ragnvald? According to Nestor, he came
> from overseas, i.e. from Scandinavia.
> What do we know about Rogvolod/Rogneda's family? Judging from
> Rogneda's arrogance, it was a princely family of high repute in her
> native Scandinavia.
I have known some arrogant people who have no such haughty pedigree.
> We also know from Heimskringla that all the
> Norwegian konungs at the time were descendants of Harald Fairhair (all
> others were called jarls).
We know that all Norwegian kings _claimed_ to be descended from
Harald Fairhair, claims that should not, perhaps, be accepted at
face value. That being said, you have suddenly narrowed from
overseas to Scandinavia to Norway.
> Several authorities, notably Rydzevskaya ("Ancient Rus and Scandinavia
> in 9-14 cent.", 1978), identify Rogneda with Vladimir's Varyangian
> wife Olava/Allogia, mentioned in Norse sagas. Snorri tells us that
> when Olaf Tryggvason came to Novgorod as criminal runaway Allogia
> sheltered him in her house and payed a large fine for him. This is
> particularly striking, since Olaf's maternal uncle Sigurd Eyrickson
> was one of Vladimir's boyars at the time and would naturally help his
> nephew. Allogia/Rogneda's behavior is natural for a kinswoman of Olaf.
Perhaps, but are there no other reasons a woman might take favor
on Olaf?
> How could Ragnvald and Ragnhild be relatives of Olaf Tryggvason and
> yet descendants of Harald Fairhair?
Both halves of this question gloss over significant jumps in
logic. The only evidence you have given for a relationship to
Rogneda is that she took Olaf into her favor (and even this
depends on Rogneda being identical to Allogia). Likewise, I see
no evidence that the family was from Norway, let alone descended
from Harald.
> There are two possiblilies.
> Ragnvald could be a half-brother of Tryggvi Olafson, or his wife
> (Ingigerd?) could be a sister of Tryggvi. In both cases Rogneda would
> be the first cousin of Olaf Tryggvason, and Yaroslav I would be the
> second cousin of Olaf's sons (it perfectly suits the evidence of
> Northern sagas). The connection of Ragnvald and Tryggvi is further
> reinforced by Nestor, who mentiones as Rogvolod's neighbour one prince
> Turi who could be Tryggvi himself (he was a frequent guest in Russian
> lands).
It is dangerous to assume two Tryggvis are the same person, let
alone a Turi in Russia and a Tryggvi in Norway.
> Now, I'm inclined to think that Ragnvald was Tryggvi's brother rather
> than his brother-in-law. Snorri mentiones one Ragnvald the Glorious as
> a first cousin of Harald Fairhair. The full name and complex
> sobriquets of Ragnvald's father are identical with those of Tryggve's
> father Olaf.
Yet this Ragnvald appears to be supported by the works of his
contemporary court poet, so if there is a mistake, then perhaps
it was in applying these names to the younger Olaf.
> Apparently, Snorri made some mistake. I'll say more. As
> you know, Harald's children were brought up by their mothers and
> inherited their lands.
So the tradition goes, and each has their own mother, almost as
if they were entirely different lines, all grafted onto the
required ancestor of a Norwegian king, Harald Fairhair.
> With Ragnvald/Rogvolod this custom was
> introduced to the House of Rurik: Ragnhild's son Izyaslav was brought
> up by his mother in Polotsk and inherited the land of his grandfather.
Was this tradition introduced in this generation? It is hard to
call it a tradition with just one instance.
> I don't know how others explain the connection of Yaroslav and Harald,
> but that's what I think. Any comments are welcome.
I don't see that there is one.
taf
Igor Sklar
> Igor Sklar wrote:
>
> > We also know from Heimskringla that all the
> > Norwegian konungs at the time were descendants of Harald Fairhair (all
> > others were called jarls).
>
> We know that all Norwegian kings _claimed_ to be descended from
> Harald Fairhair, claims that should not, perhaps, be accepted at
> face value.
Rogvolod appeared in Rus about 30 years after the death of Harald.
It's not such a long term for kin relations to pass into oblivion.
Judging by sagas, there were so many Norwegians at the Kievan court
that any lie would have been easily exposed.
> That being said, you have suddenly narrowed from overseas to Scandinavia to
> Norway.
One may infer from the analysis of Norse sagas that there was a clan
of 'Russian Norwegians' who easily moved between western and eastern
shores of the Baltics in time of need. They were particularly
associated with the Vik, or fjords of Southern Norway. Perhaps it
wouldn't be too much to say that Russian and Norwegian rulers were
regarded by skalds as one family.
Exact links are hard to reconstruct. According to Tatishev, Efanda of
Norway (a daughter of Norwegian konung) was the wife of Rurik, the
sister of Helgu, and the mother of Igor. Chronologically Efanda could
be a sister of Harald Fairhair. In this case Igor was the 1st cousin
of Eric Bloodaxe, and Svyatoslav - the 2nd cousin of Harald Greycloak.
Don't take this inference too seriously, though.
> > Several authorities, notably Rydzevskaya ("Ancient Rus and Scandinavia
> > in 9-14 cent.", 1978), identify Rogneda with Vladimir's Varyangian
> > wife Olava/Allogia, mentioned in Norse sagas. Snorri tells us that
> > when Olaf Tryggvason came to Novgorod as criminal runaway Allogia
> > sheltered him in her house and payed a large fine for him. This is
> > particularly striking, since Olaf's maternal uncle Sigurd Eyrickson
> > was one of Vladimir's boyars at the time and would naturally help his
> > nephew. Allogia/Rogneda's behavior is natural for a kinswoman of Olaf.
>
> Perhaps, but are there no other reasons a woman might take favor
> on Olaf?
Who knows... Olaf was only 10 at the time, and had a natural guardian
(maternal uncle) to help him. Sigurd had both means and desire to
help. But for some reason Olaf was assisted by a woman that apparently
never had seen him before.
> > The connection of Ragnvald and Tryggvi is further
> > reinforced by Nestor, who mentiones as Rogvolod's neighbour one prince
> > Turi who could be Tryggvi himself (he was a frequent guest in Russian
> > lands).
>
> It is dangerous to assume two Tryggvis are the same person, let
> alone a Turi in Russia and a Tryggvi in Norway.
Certainly. Yet the name Tryggvi was so extremely rare in Norway, that
some vague parallels with Russian names occur.
However rare the name, coincidence of names doesn't imply coincidence
of persons. For example, we know from Snorri that Hrolfr the Ganger
spent some part of his life in Ladoga. The Russo-Byzantine treaties of
907 and 911 mention one Rulav as a Varangian negotiator. And yet noone
attempts to identify Rulav with Hrolfr.
Nevertheless, some ties of Rus and Orkneys are impossible to deny. You
may remember Snorri's remark that Ragnvald II Brusisson (jarl 1038-46)
spent some time on service of Yaroslav/Jarisleiv.
> > Now, I'm inclined to think that Ragnvald was Tryggvi's brother rather
> > than his brother-in-law. Snorri mentiones one Ragnvald the Glorious as
> > a first cousin of Harald Fairhair. The full name and complex
> > sobriquets of Ragnvald's father are identical with those of Tryggve's
> > father Olaf.
>
> Yet this Ragnvald appears to be supported by the works of his
> contemporary court poet, so if there is a mistake, then perhaps
> it was in applying these names to the younger Olaf.
The sobriquet of Ragnvald the Glorious leads one to expect that Snorri
would pay much attention to this personage. And yet Snorri but
mentions his name: no mother is given, circumstances of his death are
not described, which is quite unusual. This vagueness of data strikes
me all the more since Ragnvald Olafson is the person to whom the
Yngling Saga was dedicated.
Nobody can tell for sure when the Yngling Saga was created. I strongly
suspect that Tjodolv the Wise was a skald of Harald Greycloak (konung
960-975) not of Harald Fairhair. Since Rogvolod/Ragnvald was still
alive at that time, Tjodolv couldn't mention his death and a place of
burial. This would explain why no deeds of the "glorious" person were
recouned by Tjodolv in his saga. He could have heard that
Ragnvald/Rogvolod ruled overseas and was 'glorious', but had no
specific information about him.
>
> > Apparently, Snorri made some mistake. I'll say more. As
> > you know, Harald's children were brought up by their mothers and
> > inherited their lands. With Ragnvald/Rogvolod this custom was
> > introduced to the House of Rurik: Ragnhild's son Izyaslav was brought
> > up by his mother in Polotsk and inherited the land of his grandfather.
>
> Was this tradition introduced in this generation? It is hard to
> call it a tradition with just one instance.
All the more remarkable! This single instance sustains a theory of
Rogneda's descent from Harald.
Of course, all this is just a conjecture. But I don't think that some
filiations of contemporary Western European rulers are accepted on any
more solid ground. Princess of Ohningen is declared the wife of St.
Vladimir in every second genealogical reference without any historical
support whatsoever. Or let's take the origin of Robert the Strong.
There is much evidence, but it's all controversial. In Rogneda's case
the evidence is scarce, but it all points to one conclusion.
Regards, Igor
Phil Moody
> > We also know from Heimskringla that all the
> > Norwegian konungs at the time were descendants of Harald Fairhair (all
> > others were called jarls).
>
> We know that all Norwegian kings _claimed_ to be descended from
> Harald Fairhair, claims that should not, perhaps, be accepted at
> face value. That being said, you have suddenly narrowed from
> overseas to Scandinavia to Norway.
PLM: I seemed to miss the beginning of this thread, but I must comment on
Igor's remark above. I infer that Igor is claiming that Jarls are not
descendants of King Harald Fairhair, and this simply is not true in all
instances. Ch. 33 of Harald Fairhair's saga in Hollander's translation
reads:
"There he bestowed the title of "king" on all his sons and put this into law
that each of his descendants was to inherit a kingdom after his father, and
an earldom, each who was of his kin on the female side." EQ
So, we see that Harald Fairhair's daughters brought with them the title of
Jarl to their male heirs. Jarl Hákon inn riki was one such heir of Harald
Fairhair, and subsequently all of his many children were as well.
It may be argued that the male line of Harald Fairhair died out with Harald
Greycloak, but this was not the end of his bloodline - if we consider the
lines through his daughters. Jarl Hákon inn riki's male line may have failed
as well, but his descendants infused the blood of Harald Fairhair back into
the monarchies of all three Scandinavian countries, as well as Orkney.
Best Wishes,
Phil
Andrey Frizyuk
> While I will not argue that Rogneda appear to be Scandinavian in
> origin, what is the basis for making her father the uncle of
> Olaf? To be blunt, I have reservations about the descent of Olaf
> Tryggvison from Harald Fairhair (and certainly the various death
> dates here are hard to support). Note that another poster,
>
> pmik wrote:
>
> > I have this informations : Rogneda was the daughter Ragnvald and Ingelborge
> > of Norway. Ingelborge was the little daughter of Olaf of Norway
>
> This would seem to make Rogneda's mother, and not her father, the
> royal kinswoman. What I am wondering is, where does this
> connection come from to begin with. Does it 'support' the
> relationship between Olaf Tryggvison and Yaroslav, or was it
> instead invented to explain this relationship?
>
> taf
The idea have been hovering around for a while. The first to suggest
an Yngling descent for Rogneda was Belyaev in 1925 ('Ryurik
Yutlandskii i Ryurik nachal'noi letopisi'. // Sbornik statei po
arheologii i vizantovedeniyu, vol. 3. Prague, 1925). Belyayev
identified Rogovold/Ragnvald with Ragnvald Haraldson, the son of
Harald Fairhair from a sorceress Snefried Finnsdottir.
The only evidence given was the reputation of Polotsk rulers for their
mastery of magic. Vseslav of Polotsk (Rogneda's great grandson) was
said to have been conceived by sorcery. Vseslav himself was thought to
be a mighty magician and werewolf who could prowl in the cloud of blue
haze from Novgorod to the Black Sea and back to Polotsk in a single
night: "Vseslav knyaz lyudem sudyashe, knyazem grady ryadyashe, a sam
v noch volkom ryskashe; iz Kieva doryskashe do kur Tmutorokanya,
velikomu Khorsovi volkom put preryskashe." When they rang bells in
Kiev, he could hear it in Polotsk. "Skochi ot nikh lyutym zverem v
polnochi iz Belagrada, obesisya sine mgle..." (The Lay of Igor's
Campaign).
There are also some similiarities between Vladimir's treatment of
Rodnega (for example, her attempt to kill him when asleep) and
relations of Harald with his wives. But is it enough to bolster any
line of descent?..
All best wishes, Andrey
Todd A. Farmerie
> There are also some similiarities between Vladimir's treatment of
> Rodnega (for example, her attempt to kill him when asleep) and
> relations of Harald with his wives. But is it enough to bolster any
> line of descent?..
Until a genetic link to spousicide is found, I would resist any
attempt to link them just based on shared attempted murder
traditions - it seems more likely the subject of a traditional
story was shifted from one founder family to the other, rather
than that is was some inherited pagan family ritual.
taf
Andrey Frizyuk
> Andrey Frizyuk wrote:
>
> > There are also some similiarities between Vladimir's treatment of
> > relations of Harald with his wives. But is it enough to bolster any
> > line of descent?..
>
> Until a genetic link to spousicide is found, I would resist any
> attempt to link them just based on shared attempted murder
> traditions - it seems more likely the subject of a traditional
> story was shifted from one founder family to the other, rather
> than that is was some inherited pagan family ritual.
I'm also inclined to treat sagas as a source rather literary than
historical. Historical figures were multiplied, shifted in time, given
different names by skalds. For example, Allogia (judging by her pious
character and strange name) is Olga Prekrasa shifted in time.
Another possibility. If one accepts sagas at their face value, what is
the reason for identification of Vladimir's early Scandinavian wife
with Rogneda? The Ingvars saga mentions that Eric the Victorious
married his daughter to 'konung of fjord from the East from
Holmgardr'. We should remember that Vladimir lived at that period
(975/995) in Scandinavia. If there was such a wife (Olava=feminine
form of Olav?) it'd explain her kindness to Olaf Tryggvason, &c.
All best wishes, Andrey
George Tsambourakis
the daughter of Emperor Romanos II (939-963) by his wife Theophano and
should more accurately be called "of Byzantium".
Your suggestion sounds correct; however, the problem is (to my knowledge)
that the word "Byzantium" was "introduced" by a certain European country
only a few hundred years ago.
Therefore Nobody inside the East Roman Empire born before the 17th century
could be called "of Byzantium".
I am curious about the views of genuine historians.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"The Williams Family" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:3E5261D6...@cowboy.net...
> Hello,
>
> Yaroslav the Wise was the son of Vladimir, Veliky Knyaz of Kiev (d. 15
Jul 1015 at Berestovo) and his first wife Rogned of Polotsk (m. 980, d.
1000). See the entries for those years in _The Russian Primary Chronicle_.
There is a good English translation of the Laurentian Text by Samuel H.
Cross & Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor (Cambridge, MA: The Mediaeval Academy of
America, 1953).
> Rogned was the daughter of Rogvolod, Knyaz of Polotsk (d. 980) who
besides her also had two sons who d. in 980. I am uncertain whether any
sources mention him besides the _Primary Chronicle_.
>