Lap bars on multi loop coasters?
rllr...@aol.com
Howdy,
Does anyone here think it would be possible(safe) for a multi-loop coaster
to have lap bars only instead of shoulder harnesses? I don't think any
designers/builders have ever built a coaster like this. Schwarzkopf used
lapbars only on his coasters with loops, however, he really only used one
form of a loop. I think it would be great to ride a coaster with elements
like boomerangs, cobra rolls, corkscrews etc.. with lap bars in place of
shoulder harnesses. What do you think??????
Howdy, Howdy, Howdy, Welcome aboard the Grrrrrreeeeeezzzed Lightnin'
Chris L.
ACE Member
TEXAN and PROUD of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave Althoff
rllr...@aol.com wrote:
: Howdy,
: Does anyone here think it would be possible(safe) for a multi-loop coaster
: to have lap bars only instead of shoulder harnesses? I don't think any
: designers/builders have ever built a coaster like this. Schwarzkopf used
: lapbars only on his coasters with loops, however, he really only used one
: form of a loop. I think it would be great to ride a coaster with elements
: like boomerangs, cobra rolls, corkscrews etc.. with lap bars in place of
: shoulder harnesses. What do you think??????
Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. It is possible, and would be
perfectly safe to built multi-element looping coasters using only lap bars
to secure passengers. I am completely convinced of this, and I wish some
manufacturer would take the lead and actually do it.
I'm running late for a meeting so I won't elaborate further right now.
Maybe later.
Merry Christmas!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
--
/-\ Celebrating the International Year of the Roller Coaster
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_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
ansley
dal...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Dave Althoff) wrote:
>rllr...@aol.com wrote:
>: Howdy,
>: Does anyone here think it would be possible(safe) for a multi-loop coaster
>: to have lap bars only instead of shoulder harnesses? I don't think any
>: designers/builders have ever built a coaster like this. Schwarzkopf used
>: lapbars only on his coasters with loops, however, he really only used one
>: form of a loop. I think it would be great to ride a coaster with elements
>: like boomerangs, cobra rolls, corkscrews etc.. with lap bars in place of
>: shoulder harnesses. What do you think??????
>
>Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. It is possible, and would be
>perfectly safe to built multi-element looping coasters using only lap bars
>to secure passengers. I am completely convinced of this, and I wish some
>manufacturer would take the lead and actually do it.
>
>I'm running late for a meeting so I won't elaborate further right now.
>Maybe later.
>
>Merry Christmas!
>--Dave Althoff, Jr.
>--
I don't think it can be done. The main reason is with nothing to hold
your upperbody against the seat you could get some severe back injuries
from elements like a corkscrew, boomerang, or others. Have you ever ridden
in the front of a looper and noticed big reduction is speed half way through
an element and then a large burst of speed coming out of the element?
Especially on boomerangs, cobra rolls, etc..? Your upper body would get
thrown forward and/or sideways causing a back injury or possible a head
injury if you hit your head on the front of the car. (I've seen this happen
to kids on wood coasters and Schwarzkopf loopers) I've notice this
phenomenon on 2 Schwartzkopf looper; Mindbender(SFoG) and Laser.
When I had my hands up on the horizontal (*2nd loop*) loop, while riding
by myself, I was thrown violently to one side and pulled some muscles in
my back due to the forces. It was a very minor muscle pull but it was a
a little painful. I tried to sit up on subsequent rides but found out that I
could not unless I held on slightly. I also noticed the same thing on the
first hard left after the 2 loops on Laser. Come to think of it, the same
thing occured after the loop on Red Devil at Ghost Town in the Sky.
Anyhow, the point is that I think that the lateral and forward forces could
cause you to fall forward or to the side and receive an injury. I've never
had this problem on any other parts of these loopers but I'm convinced
with the forces in a boomerang, sidewinder, cobra roll, immelman, bowtie,
etc., that the same phenomenon would occur. As much as I'd like to see
lap bars on these types of coasters, I don't think it is 100% safe and I
don't think we'll see it.
Ted Ansley
**Rollercoaster Fan<atic>**
ans...@toad.net
Dave Althoff
Chris L. asked about running a looper with lap bars.
I said it could absolutely be done, but didn't repost one of my long
prepared arguments on the subject. I have one ready to go, though, so if
it becomes appropriate... 8-)
Ted Ansley brought up the subject of strong lateral and fore/aft forces on
looping coasters, and related a less-than-pleasant experience on a
vertical loop resulting in a violent lateral or twisting motion (I'm not
completely sure which). His contention is that the existence of this
force makes it necessary to use the over-the shoulder bars.
I think Ted is at least partially correct: These lateral and fore/aft
forces do exist on multi-element coasters, and these forces can be quite
strong. Where we disagree, however, is on the appropriate way to deal
with these forces. Ted suggested that this is a function handled by the
over-the-shoulder bar...that it holds riders upright, and that it holds
riders in the correct lateral position.
I say: There are other ways to handle these forces, aside from designing
them out of the ride profile. In fact, it is the presence of strong
lateral forces on multi-element coasters which tends to cause the
"headbanging" action some of us complain about. Let me begin with the
lateral forces.
This is one area where the Arrow trains work remarkably well. The rider
sits in a concave well, which serves to support his body with respect to
the seat centerline. At the same time, I noticed this to be a problem
with the Schwarzkopf trains, in that the seat in the Schwarzkopf train
(thinking specifically of Scorpion, but I am pretty sure
Sooperdooperlooper and Doppel Loopingbahn (Lazer) are the same) consists
of a flat seat cushion and the outside wall of the train. Not only is
there no lateral support molded into the seat, nor is there any seat
divider...there is actually a 2" wide gap between the left and right seat
cushions. The only thing that keeps the rider in his own seat is the
inside rail of the lap bar...which, incidentally, is unpadded and not the
most pleasant thing to crash into during the ride. I think that some
lateral support would solve the lateral force problem.
THEORY: The headbanging problem on Outer Limits:Flight of Fear early in
the season (before the addition of those awful pads) is due in part to the
undivided, uncontoured seat bench. The lack of lateral support caused
riders to shift back and forth under the restraint. Any thoughts?
The second problem that Ted described is that of fore-aft forces throwing
riders forward, rendering any lateral support useless. This is also the
alleged problem described by another poster talking about Revolution. I
suggest that this is a good place for some creative problem solving.
Consider the human body, which is able to pivot only in selected
locations. When seated under a lap bar on a coaster, the pivot point is
located, conveniently, right behind the lap bar. This means that if the
train stops suddenly, or slows suddenly, the rider will easily double over
the lap bar. In particular, when going through a large loop, the rider
will double over the bar, then the sudden increase in forces, instead of
slamming the rider rearward in his seat, can actually bear down on him,
compressing him further into his doubled-over position...which is clearly
not desirable.
At the moment, the overhead restraint is used to block this motion by
holding the rider back by his shoulders. But since the body's pivot point
is of a limited size, would it not be equally effective to simply extend
the lap bar upward a couple of inches? Two ideas for how to do this; the
first would be to use a large-diameter soft-padded cover for the lap bar,
as one might find on a Super Loops ride. Another, probably
lower-maintenance idea would be to use a vertically-extended (about 4-5
inches) lap bar rail, possibly pivoting, much like Cedar Fair uses on the
Arrow Chutes rides at Cedar Point and Dorney Park. Either way, I think
this is a less-intrusive way to accomplish the same goal: To keep the
rider seated upright in his seat.
Of course, the twisting action that Ted described is what results when you
combine both the foreward force and the lateral force. If only one of
these two forces is addressed, then the twisting action should no longer
be a problem. But if both can be addressed, then the problem should be
solved.
Dissenting opinions? 8-) What do the engineers think?
Merry Christmas!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
--
ansley
dal...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Dave Althoff) wrote:
Good solution Dave! I remember you talking about these higher larger bars
in a previous post. You mentioned that some of the larger chute-the-chutes
type boat rides have them. Yes, I remember Dorney's boat ride having one
and yes, I think this is a good solution.
Ted
------------
Kevin Russell
Dave Althoff <dal...@freenet.columbus.oh.us> wrote in article
<59mo9b$f...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>...
> rllr...@aol.com wrote:
> : Howdy,
> : Does anyone here think it would be possible(safe) for a multi-loop
coaster
> : to have lap bars only instead of shoulder harnesses? I don't think any
> : designers/builders have ever built a coaster like this. Schwarzkopf
used
> : lapbars only on his coasters with loops, however, he really only used
one
> : form of a loop. I think it would be great to ride a coaster with
elements
> : like boomerangs, cobra rolls, corkscrews etc.. with lap bars in place
of
> : shoulder harnesses. What do you think??????
>
> Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. It is possible, and would be
> perfectly safe to built multi-element looping coasters using only lap
bars
> to secure passengers. I am completely convinced of this, and I wish some
> manufacturer would take the lead and actually do it.
>
Possible? yes
Safe?if properly designed
likely? hell no
unfortunately the lawyers have too much influence on what happens in this
country.
After almost twenty years of looping coasters with shoulder restraints, a
manufacturer who built one with lap bars would lose his a-- if there were
ever an accident. I have had arguements with representatives of the
insurance industry over calling an e-stop button an e-stop button. In the
ski industry they want to call it a bullwheel brake button, to totally
remove the word emergency from the operation. Unfortunately every other
standard on electrical controls wants to see a device labeled an e-stop,
and it better be there. So now who do I make happy, the lawyer for the
insurance company or the electrical inspector?
Twister
On 23 Dec 1996 18:32:19 GMT, rllr...@aol.com wrote:
>Howdy,
>Does anyone here think it would be possible(safe) for a multi-loop coaster
>to have lap bars only instead of shoulder harnesses? I don't think any
>designers/builders have ever built a coaster like this. Schwarzkopf used
>lapbars only on his coasters with loops, however, he really only used one
>form of a loop. I think it would be great to ride a coaster with elements
>like boomerangs, cobra rolls, corkscrews etc.. with lap bars in place of
>shoulder harnesses. What do you think??????
>
>Chris L.
>ACE Member
>TEXAN and PROUD of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
I think it would be safe depending on the designer.
Most Arrow coasters enter some elements way to slow.
Such as Anaconda PKD , GASM in the boorang etc.
Then there are coasters that are very safe without a lap
bar such as the Mind Bender SFOG. The first time I rode
this coaster I had my hands up sitting in the front seat. It
slammed my hands down going into the first loop.
The second time I was leaning alittle to far foward and it
folded me in half over the lap bar.
Since this is in my clipboard. Take a look at this.
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~peterbye/southcoasters/images/bullet1l.jpg
From the looks of it. You can just tell how intense the G's are.
I sure would hate to be in a Arrow going into the curve before the
loop. Of course Arrow doesn't track like a good old Anton ride. But
thats another topic.
There are coaster designers and then there are people that just
twist wire on TV (ouch!)
Twister
pet...@aol.com
In article <01bbf1b7$f7e96d40$6a083dce@krr>, "Kevin Russell"
<krus...@poai.com> writes:
>ever an accident. I have had arguements with representatives of the
>insurance industry over calling an e-stop button an e-stop button. In
the
>ski industry they want to call it a bullwheel brake button, to totally
>remove the word emergency from the operation. Unfortunately every other
>standard on electrical controls wants to see a device labeled an e-stop,
>and it better be there. So now who do I make happy, the lawyer for the
>insurance company or the electrical inspector?
Have two identical buttons, one called E-Stop and another called bullwheel
brake? Stupid I know, but would this work?
Pete Babic
Using my AOL account
For Email replies please use p...@po.cwru.edu
Dave Althoff
pet...@aol.com wrote:
: In article <01bbf1b7$f7e96d40$6a083dce@krr>, "Kevin Russell"
: <krus...@poai.com> writes:
From the sound of it, probably not. I mean, the obvious thing to do is to
have a big red mushroom button-- BULLWHEEL
BRAKE
It would make perfectly good sense, and /-\
inspectors and engineers from any area < >
ought to be able to understand what it \-/
means and what it is intended for, but EMERGENCY
if I understand the problem correctly, STOP
the problem is that the insurance lawyer does not want the word
"EMERGENCY" to appear anywhere on the controls. In which case, the
existence of the additional labeling would violate the directive. Maybe
this is why so many coaster control panels are completely unmarked. Take
the controls for the Stricker's Grove Tornado, for instance: a key
switch, a mushroom switch, two black buttons, and two green buttons...and
I don't think any of it is marked. I've never seen them hit the wrong
button, though.
Hmmm...Maybe the solution is to label the cutoff with "BULLWHEEL BRAKE"
above and simply "E STOP" below, and hope the lawyer doesn't know what "E"
stands for...
Now I'm curious...how *did* you solve the problem, Kevin?
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(Who fortunately doesn't have to deal with this problem!)
Merry Christmas, everybody!!
Dwayne L. Allen
In Article <news:32c1b21f...@news.alt.net>,
Twister wrote:
>http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~peterbye/southcoasters/images/bullet1l.jpg
>From the looks of it. You can just tell how intense the G's are.
>I sure would hate to be in a Arrow going into the curve before the
>loop. Of course Arrow doesn't track like a good old Anton ride. But
>thats another topic.
>There are coaster designers and then there are people that just
>twist wire on TV (ouch!)
>
> Twister
Excuse me, but could you tell me where that coaster is located? The coaster
looks simply wicked for a shuttle loop.
Dwayne L. Allen
_________
/_CYCLONE/_
/__RACER_/
roll...@aol.com
In article <19961226072...@ix.netcom.com>, john...@ix.netcom.com
(Dwayne L. Allen) writes:
>Excuse me, but could you tell me where that coaster is located? The
>coaster looks simply wicked for a shuttle loop.
>
>
The bullet is at Flamingo Land in the UK. The ride is wicked!! I rode it,
during the ACE trip, something like 12 times during the brief ERT. A
great way to end the trip.
Robert Reagan
Texas ACE Regional Rep
Bradco 21
To those interested,
I am very familiar with Schwartzkopf's Laser (Dorney Park).
The first time I was on the ride, (also my first coaster ever) I was
totally unprepared for the G's that bent my upper body down almost to my
thighs. Now that I am well aware of the forces present going thru the two
loops there is only very slight movement on my part. At the bottom of the
drop I push my head back in the headrest, usually with my arms up until
after that awesome whoosh to the left. Even with that gut-wretching left
turn, I have come to expect it and it no longer throws me as much. I now,
too, like the fact that Schwartzkopf's creations allow the rider to be
free to move, (and get thrown) as many roller coasters were meant to be
experienced!
mhech...@gmail.com
surfd...@aol.com
Art Todesco
> You'd be pleased to know that well over 20 years later: both RMC and Gerstlauer only use lap bars / seat belts for their looping coasters :)
>
only need lap bars.
Dave Althoff, Jr.
: You'd be pleased to know that well over 20 years later: both RMC and
and Hopkins, and Schwarzkopf, and...
Big kudos to Kennywood, incidentally, for having 13 roller coaster
inversions without any shoulder bars. I don't know if that's a record or
not, but it certainly indicates that they might have learned the most
important lesson from the Steel Phantom debacle.
You know, I hate to say "I told you so," but if you dig far enough back into
the archives of rec.roller-coaster, I actually did...!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
/X\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
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the body of your message for a quicker response.
Dave Althoff, Jr.
surfd...@aol.com
Ansley
Ted