God and Guiding/Scouting
Lesley Adams
Having just read the thread on "No God in Girl Scouting" it's made me
start to think, and I'd like to pose a question...
First I must say, that at the moment it's ficticious, but I think I can
see a time when it might not be.
I understand that God comes in all shapes and sizes, depending on your
religion and point of view, e.g. Christians see a different God to
Hindus, but what do you do if you have a girl who desperately wants to
be a Guide and understands and is willing to keep all the other parts of
the promise, but she is an Atheist ??
Lesley
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Lesley Adams Tel: (44) 1705 843623
Centre for Molecular Design Fax: (44) 1705 843277
University of Portsmouth email: ada...@cv.port.ac.uk
U.K. or ada...@sisko.sci.port.ac.uk
michelle garrison
Hey there:
I forget who it was that brought this up, but as to the question
of atheist girl scouts:
I have had a few girls in my troop who have been raised as atheists,
and we haven't had any problem with either the promise or with
adapting activities. We have let atheist girls work with their
parents to find a word to substitute for "God" in the pledge,
ie: On my honor I will serve "the world, nature, my planet, life, etc"
Many of the girls in my troop work on the religious recognitions programs
for their various religions or denominations, and we have allowed atheist
girls and families to develop an alternative that includes research
on philosophy and the concept of religion as cultural myths and a study
of comparative religons. Unfortunately, there is no pin, badge, or other
award for this kind of study, but I have no problem making and awarding
a troop "certificate" for this. Letting the other girls in the troop
know that I am making this option available helps them to understand
the application of tolerance in a troop setting and helps to prevent
them from perceiving atheism as being akin to satanism or a cult or a
fanatic fringe group.
Michelle Garrison
Lone Star Girl Scout Council, Austin, TX
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Michelle Garrison * Michelle Garrison * Michelle Garrison
DHFS Computer Labs Microbiolgy/PlanII Major
University of Texas at Austin mik...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Jillian Johnston
Lesley Adams (ada...@sisko.sci.port.ac.uk) wrote:
: Having just read the thread on "No God in Girl Scouting" it's made me
I hope this doesn't stir up the same hornets' nest that buzzed
through the Boy Scouts group a few weeks ago. Lets try to keep
the discussion civil. This is not ficticious situation I'm sure.
--
Jillian Johnston
Dept. of Biological Sciences Guider
Univ. of Calgary 30 Pathfinders, Tanisi District
Anne Elzenaar
Lesley Adams <ada...@sisko.sci.port.ac.uk> writes:
>I understand that God comes in all shapes and sizes, depending on your
>religion and point of view, e.g. Christians see a different God to
>Hindus, but what do you do if you have a girl who desperately wants to
>be a Guide and understands and is willing to keep all the other parts of
>the promise, but she is an Atheist ??
Hi Lesley,
I have had this in my unit. In this case the child was honest enough to tell
me about her feelings and also made the decision in her own mind that she
could make the promise. I did write a letter to our National Guide Advisor
here and know it was passed on to our Chief Commissioner for discussion.
I made the decision in my own head that I believe that our NZ promise needs
to be changed so that everyone can feel comfortable with it. I also decided
that if I was ever put in a situation where I had to tell a girl that because
she was honest and felt strongly about her belief (or lack of belief) in a God
there was no place for her in Guiding I would also leave. Guiding should be
for everyone and one of the things we try and promote is honesty and the ability
to follow through on our beliefs. There are girls in Guiding who make the
Promise when it means nothing to them, (shouldn't happen - but I'm sure we
all know of cases where it does). To penalise someone for thinking about it
and being upfront is just wrong in my opinion.
I did discuss it with other leaders as well - and there were comments along
the lines of just drop that little bit of the Promise out - but that isn't solving
the problem really (and I'd feel awful and dishonest in doing that deliberately).
Our Promise talks about "My God" which gives us a way around things in
most cases - but you are right - it doesn't in this instance.
NOTE: Anyone mailing me direct please take note that my newsreader
has a bug in it and leaves the server name off the address - so use the
correct address at the bottom of this page instead. (Inconvenient is not
the word! :))
I am speaking only with my voice in this -
these views are not the GGANZ official line.
Neil Savage
In article <31EA20...@sisko.sci.port.ac.uk>, Lesley Adams
<ada...@sisko.sci.port.ac.uk> writes...
>..., but what do you do if you have a girl who desperately wants to
>be a Guide and understands and is willing to keep all the other parts of
>the promise, but she is an Atheist ??
You might want to be a bit more specific in posing the question.
What about her parent(s) - does her family support her atheism?
How old is she? [The premise is that very young children are still
exploring their relationship to God. We adults should be more
accepting and non judgemental about the 'faith' of any child that is
not our 'own' (in the legal guardian or godparent sense)]
What is the nature of her objection to saying the promise?
(in what way is she 'unwilling' to keep the God part of the promise?)
In most situations (countries) I presume that the standard that
applies is: "The 'BEST' any atheist can do is to have no God obligations
at all". So, because that IS her "best" she has indeed lived up to
the spirit of her promise.
Handling the situation any other way, I would find difficult to
justify (rationally).
- neil
Hilary Ann Croughton
Lesley Adams <ada...@sisko.sci.port.ac.uk> wrote:
>I understand that God comes in all shapes and sizes, depending on your
>religion and point of view, e.g. Christians see a different God to
>Hindus, but what do you do if you have a girl who desperately wants to
>be a Guide and understands and is willing to keep all the other parts of
>the promise, but she is an Atheist ??
When we explain duty to God to our Cub Scouts (8-11 year olds) we put
it this way:
God created the world, everything in it, and the people. What God
wants is for us to look after the things that He has made. If we look
after our enviroment and try to help other people then we are doing
what God wants, and therefore our duty to God. Even if you don't
believe in God you can still do what He want us to, and therefore your
duty to Him.
I don't know what the Scout Association (UK) would say to this, but
all our Cub Leaders (2 Catholics and a Mormon) are quite happy with
it, and so are the kids.
Hope that helps,
Hilary
Assistant Cub Scout Leader - 28th Ipswich (Mixed) Scout Group
P.S. Have you found uk.rec.scouting yet? Guiders are quite welcome
there too. :-)
Anne Elzenaar
Hi Neil :)
In <4sj7rv$r...@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, sav...@tle.enet.dec.com (Neil Savage) writes:
> What about her parent(s) - does her family support her atheism?
Taking the case we had last year...
I don't think what her family believes comes into this directly. It is the girl
making the promise as an individual, whether they support her or not is
irrelevant in this one on one situation.
> How old is she? [The premise is that very young children are still
> exploring their relationship to God. We adults should be more
> accepting and non judgemental about the 'faith' of any child that is
> not our 'own' (in the legal guardian or godparent sense)]
In my case this was a 10.5 year old Guide. She was absolutely sure about
her beliefs (I suspect that her family are atheists - but didn't (and don't)
feel it was relevant to the issue so didn't ask). The point is that at the time
in her life when she was asked to make the Guide Promise she didn't feel
happy about doing so. And there was no easy way around this for us. (We
don't have the option of rewording away from a God - although there are
different promises to fit different religions there is no point of contact for
an atheist.)
> What is the nature of her objection to saying the promise?
> (in what way is she 'unwilling' to keep the God part of the promise?)
She doesn't believe in a God. Simple and straight forward. Why should
she make a promise to do things for someone / something who in her mind
is non-existant? That - to her mind - and incidently I agree with her - is
hypocritical and actively against some of our Guide Laws, (like being honest
and loyal, and valuing herself).
> In most situations (countries) I presume that the standard that
> applies is: "The 'BEST' any atheist can do is to have no God obligations
> at all". So, because that IS her "best" she has indeed lived up to
> the spirit of her promise.
The relevant part of our kiwi promise says "To serve my God, the Queen
and my country." Sure she is promiing to do her best to ... but when I used
this as a possible solution for a 10.5 year old she was not impressed and still
felt hypocritical about making the promise with "the God line" (as it became
known).
> Handling the situation any other way, I would find difficult to
> justify (rationally).
It's about the best solution I came up with as well - but if it
couldn't satisfy this girl at 10.5 do you think it would work on
a strong, independant Ranger aged girl? (13-19 year old).
I personally believe that here in NZ we need a better way around this
(a choice of spirituality would be nice and satisfy most people :) )
Speaking only for myself,
Anne Elzenaar
Guide Leader and Cert. Trainer
Wellington, New Zealand
an...@lejonosmac.topnz.ac.nz or an...@cbc.topnz.ac.nz
keg
Hooray for you! You sound like a very open minded individual who is
teaching the aspect of tolerance in a very effective way.
E. J. Werntz
.
What color is the sky in your world ?