Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On Vitamin-R!
Dr. Richard X. Frager
Vitamin-R!
Slade, a student at Thomas S. Wootton High School in Rockville, Md.,
usually waited until lunch before approaching a couple of buddies. When
the time came he said, "Let's go to my office," and they'd steal away to
a concrete stoop outside that Slade claimed as his own. He reached into
his pocket for several tine pills. The cigarette lighter came next, or
his newly acquired driver's license, or anything else he could find to
crush the pills into powder. Sometimes he used the heel of his shoe,
grinding the tablets on the pavement before scooping up the powder with
a rolled-up dollar bill.
One snort gave Slade, who asked that his last name not be used, a
jolt akin to drinking a quick cup of strong coffee. Two snorts, and "I
thought I could do more work. I felt like going to class." From last
April until late summer, Slade snorted his way to a high several times
daily. His drug of choice: Methylphenidate, that brand name for
Ritalin. Touted as a wonder drug for children with attention deficit
disorder, methylphenidate is also muscling its way into the illicit drug
culture with a speed that alarms substance-abuse counselors and federal
drug experts. Kids take it "Vitamin R," "R-ball" or the "the smart
drug" and seek it out, believing it will help them study better and
party harder.
With more than 2 million children taking it legally, procuring it
illegally is a cinch: a cousin's medicine cabinet; a deal cut in the
school bathroom; a mother's bedside table (the drug is sometimes
prescribed for depression in adults). And, because it's a legal drug,
many young people see no harm in either snorting it or gulping down
larger-than therapeutic doses. "We have always had some problems with
(methylphenidate) abuse and traffic," says Gene Haislip, chief of
diversion control for the Drug Enforcement Administration. "But it has
never been pervasive because there never was much available...That
situation has begun to change radically."
Methylphenidate abuse among schoolchildren is relatively recent
and, therefore, poorly documented. The annual survey "Monitoring the
Future," by the University of Michigan, gives a hint of a trend: In
1994, more than twice as many high school seniors--representing about
350,000 students nationwide--said they had abused methylphenidate as in
1993. At Episcopal High School in Alexandria, Va., three students were
expelled last spring after 25 students were discovered misusing the
drug, according to school officials. Headmaster Lee S. Ainslie said
four boys, for whom Ritalin was prescribed, shared the drug with other
students who were hoping it would improve their concentration and help
them make better grades on exam and papers. Three students were expelled
from the Episcopal High School.
Schools in Roanoke, Va.; West Palm Beach, Fla; Merion, Pa; and suburban
Cincinnati have reported similar expulsions.
For many children who are healthy and those diagnosed with the
newfangled "spindrome" called attention deficit disorder, ritilan
produces a quick burst of energy, even euphoria, that lasts several
hours if snorted or ingested in relatively large quantities. A normal
dose is 5 to 10 milligrams, depending on one's size. The child who
exceeds that dose risks tremors, seizures, hypertension, psychosis, even
stroke, according to pharmacologist Earl Siegel, deputy director of the
Drug and Poison Center at the University of Cincinnati. "The
misconception is that it's innocuous, like taking and over-the counter
stimulant "No-Doz. It's certainly stronger than that," Siegal says.
Several DEATHS have been attributed to its abuse, including that of a
high school senior in Roanoke!
According to the DEA, emergency room admissions attributed to
methylphenidate numbered 1,711 in 1994, up slightly from previous years.
The proportion of children involved in such incidents also has risen, to
more than half the total. These figures may, in fact be too low,
according to the DEA's Haislip, because they're taken primarily from
urban hospitals, and methylphenidate abuse is largely a suburban
problem. One reason the drug is popular among some younger teens is
cost, typically between $1 and $5 a pill. "Ritalin's really the only
drug you can get when you're younger," says a 13-year old student at a
Herndon, Va., middle school. The boy, for whom Ritalin is prescribed,
pockets the pills his mom leaves with his lunch money; he then sells or
gives them away.
Todd Forte, a spokseman for the Ritalin manufacturer, the
Pharmaceutical company Ciba-Geigy Corp, gives the party-line, accusing
the media and counselors of "overreacting." Harvey Parker, co-founder
of Children and Adults With Attention Deficit disorders, a national
support group, says that twice within the last six months, the
organization has alerted parents to the potential for methylphenidate
abuse. But the group is partly responsible for the drug's meteoric
rise, Haislip says. The organization promotes methylphenidate, using
the name Ritalin, at seminars and in its written material to parents, he
says. A DEA report chastises the group for taking money from Ciba-Geigy
to help pay for seminars and brochures. "The relationship between
Ciba-Geigy and Ritalin raises serious concerns about CHADD's motive in
proselytizing the use of Ritalin," the paper states. A CHADD spokesman
says Ciba-Geigy contributed $820,000 to the organization from 1987
through 1994. Drug abuse experts are worried because the group has
petitioned the federal government to loosen restrictions on the
production and prescription of the drug.
Children taking Ritalin can become psychologically dependent, says
the DEA. And there's always a strong possibility that they may move
onto other drugs, including cocaine and other potentially
life-threatening substances. The agency attributes the reported rise in
abuse partly to the drug's phenomenal popularity in the legal market.
The number of children for whom the drug is prescribed is at least 2.4
million, twice as many as 1990. The amount filled by pharmacists is six
times what it was in 1990. The buyers are hardly urban: The top 10
states for amounts prescribed per 100,000 residents include Idaho, New
Hampshire and Alaska.
Wade Horn, former director of CHADD, says parents go for Rtialin
too quickly when their children are disruptive or start failing in
school. Horn, a child psychologist, says Ritalin is "far too popular
and kids are being over-diagnosed. Parents shop for the diagnosis of
ADD. They get mad at you if you refuse. I've never seen anything
similar in all my years of psychology." The insurance companies
contribute to this, Horn says, because, they're more willing to
reimburse a parent for a prescription than for a comprehensive
psychological evaluation. The group CHADD does not mice words in its
most recent newsletter: Children "need to understand the danger of
someone taking their medication without medical supervision and that it
could have serious consequences for them, as well." That is the
absolute truth. This medicine should not have been released in the
first place, or have been limited to less than 1 percent of those on it
now.
Dr. Judith Parker, a caring and trustworthy psychologist has these
words of medical advice: "ADD should be more accurately be called PADD
(Parental Attention Deficit Disorder). What is missing in the lives of
these kids is not the "cane" but the focused love and attention of
adults they love and respect. Anyone who has observed the effects of
paying loving attention to children knows that this is the ultimate
calming tranquilizer." Dr. Parker also states that, "I think there is
an obvious explanation of why this disorder didn't exist before World
War II, or at least to the degree it does now. The reason is because
prior to that time, most mothers stayed in the home and focused their
attention on raising their own children, instead of warehousing them in
overcrowded daycare and after school care where they do not get enough
one on one attention from adults." Some brilliant and sage advice from
a most trusted and caring physician. Hopefully, her words will be heard
by the Medical Establishment, and the Pharmaceutical and Insurance
Companies in America, who always put profits before any moral and
ethical considerations. But this time, those who are suffering from
the abuses by these powerful interests are the youngest and the least
protected members of our society: America's and the World's children.
Mostly written by Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post
Service.
Additional comments by Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press
Ian Ford
To pick up the question about why AD/HD did not exist, so the article
said, before WW2. In fact Still, the eminent British paediatrician,
reported hyperactivity at the turn of the century - the 19th century.
At that time it was regarded as a " moral deficit " - but still organic
in nature. Later terms such as " Minimal Brain Dysfunction " and more
recently " Hyperkinetic Disorder " were in vogue. It did exist, but the
names were different.
Just look at how many kids are on asthma medication - about 1:7 in the UK
and probably similar in USA. Yet asthma was uncommon before WW2. Both
asthma and AD/HD are disorders which have a genetic component and are
probably triggered by environmental factors. A lot of childhood asthma
pre-war was probably treated as bronchitis , or more likely never saw a
doctor and was treated with camphorated oil etc. The effective treatment
for AD/HD was discovered in the 'fifties. Ritalin has been around for
about as long as penicillin , and before most antibiotics in current use,
so it is hardly a " new " drug. Asthma medications such as cromolyn
sodium cam into general use in the sixties. And guess what ? As soon as
doctors can treat a condition they begin to diagnose it - whether it is
asthma or AD/HD.
Then suddenly we get a panic ... there is an " epidemic " and all our
kids are on medication. What is the matter with society ? etc. etc.
Back with AD/HD , it is a neurological condition - that much was proven
by Zametkin's PET scans and the follow-up work done since. Is it a
coincidence that the incidence of AD/HD has gone up with the improvement
of obstetric techniques ? From the early 50s ( yes, just after WW2 )
neonatal intensive care units began to develop. Premature babies were
being saved who would previously have died. And guess what ? A lot of
premature babies have " soft neurological deficits " ... possibly the
environmental trigger for AD/HD.
But it is so easy to blame poor parenting ... AD/HD is not caused by
poor parenting, but it can make adequate parents appear poor. Also, where
there <is> family stress the lack of structure etc. can exacerbate the
severity of AD/HD. But as they teach on the undergrad. stats courses,
" correlation does not imply causality ".
There is no doubt that some doctors diagnose AD/HD without a full assessment.
The same is probably true of doctors who issue asthma inhalers without
checking peak flow measurements , or who give out antibiotics every time
a kid has a sniffle. That is why parents need to take responsibility for
their kid's treatment , ask intelligent questions and not expect a pill
to cure every ill. That is why the medical profession needs to ensure
that practitioners attend updating training to keep up with latest
developments.
Yes, some kids will " sell on " their Ritalin ... but as the old adage
goes, you can't have your cake and eat it. Nor can you take your Ritalin
and sell it. If kids are prescribed Ritalin but don't take it , surely
teachers or parents will notice behavioural changes ... they certainly
ought to. Also one has to ask <why> kids don't take their medication.
Although it is generally safe it does have side-effects. The kids I spoke
to spoke of the " fuzzy feeling " and mild headaches when a dose wears
off ... and I can testify to that from my own initial experience with
Ritalin. In my case it wore off after a few months , but for some kids
the side effects remain. They need to accept the cost : benefit ration
between being able to focus on school work or whatever for a few hours , and
the " yukky " feeling as the medication wears off. Support from parents
teachers and others is vital. Telling kids that they are speed freaks,
as some media articles imply, does not help.
The article mentions addiction , but very carefully fails to
differentiate between kids with true ADD and the others. Let's face it,
if kids who abuse Ritalin for kicks try other drugs , where is the news ?
Substance abusers tend to abuse a variety of substances ... hardly an
earth-shattering discovery. In fact, research in NW London indicates
that a proprtion of users give up cocaine once their ADD is diagnosed
and they start on prescribed psychostimulants. But these users were
probably not addicted in the physiological sense. After all, if Ritalin
is addictive, why do we need to set our watches to remember to take it,
and why do kids not like taking it ?
The evidence is that for people with adequately diagnosed AD/HD taking
therapeutic doses of psychostimulants there is minimal risk of addiction.
Sure, if you take your tablets , grind them into a powder and snort the stuff
it may be different ... in 1994 there were <seven> reported cases of
methylphenidate abuse in the UK ... and those all involved sniffing (inst
for Study of Drug Dependency data) In the same period several kids died from
sniffing household chemicals, gasolene, butane from cigarette lighters.
I'm sure the USA experience is the same ... in the younger age group you
are more likely to find kids abusing solvents than prescription medicines.
That is not to say that we don't need to keep a closer control on
pharmaceutical drugs - of course we do - but it may create a sense of
perspective. A kid who can't get his cousin's Ritalin or his mother's
Valium will still be able to get gasoline from the garage or glue from
the workshop. What is required is education and prevention over the
whole range of substance abuse , chemical and pharmaceutical.
There does need to be a better control of prescribed medication , much as
there was a few years ago when the over-prescribing of benzodiazepines
became an international problem. But to say that pharmaceutically useful
medications should be withdrawn because of their abuse potential is
illogical.
Check how many deaths are caused by paracetamol ( the active ingredient of
Tylenol ) in the USA each year ... it is a lethal drug if abused, and a small
overdose will result in serious damage if not death. Yet it is still
available.
The USA has experience of trying to ban one drug, ethanol. It didn't work.
It still causes thousands of deaths from injuries and cancers, and is
available perfectly legally.
Rather than hysterical over-reaction what is required is :
* Proper standards for assessing and treating AD/HD , publicised and
profesionally applied
* Education of parents , teachers and young people in the proper use
of prescribed medication
* A comprehensive program of substance abuse prevention , and proper
identification , treatment and rehabilitation of substance abusers
so they don't graduate to addiction to hard drugs.
* Parental recognition that some kids will not get high grades,
and that pharmaceutical remedies will not make up for lack of
ability, lack of motivation or proper education. Some kids who
don't have a disability such as AD/HD fail school, and trying
to find a disability when none exists as an excuse is in nobody's
interests.
Ian N Ford DMS FRSH
London UK
Chris Brown
IF>* Proper standards for assessing and treating AD/HD , publicised and
IF> profesionally applied
IF>* Education of parents , teachers and young people in the proper use
IF> of prescribed medication
IF>* A comprehensive program of substance abuse prevention , and proper
IF> identification , treatment and rehabilitation of substance abusers
IF> so they don't graduate to addiction to hard drugs.
IF>* Parental recognition that some kids will not get high grades,
IF> and that pharmaceutical remedies will not make up for lack of
IF> ability, lack of motivation or proper education. Some kids who
IF> don't have a disability such as AD/HD fail school, and trying
IF> to find a disability when none exists as an excuse is in nobody's
IF> interests.
And, according ot the Ontario Ministry of Education, studies dating back
a century, and various other authorities, including the New Jersey
Adshford and Miller Report, which won a Macedo Award from the World
Health Organization, an assessment for environmental sensitivities is in
order for some kids with attention deficit/hyper/or other learning and
behaviour disablities. Come to this conference:
National Conference on Children with Sensitivities
Much experience has been gained by institutions which deal with
children who have sensitivities. There is a tremendous need for
this information to be shared by relevant communities of
interest, so that problems which have diverse elements can be
better approached by the diverse communities of interest
involved. There is a need to improve public understanding.
We believe it would be timely to provide this opportunity for
physicians, housing researchers, designers and builders,
educators, child care workers, public health officials, policy
makers, and possibly politicians to demonstrate their investment
in issues relating to children with sensitivities.
There is great media interest in the subject of sensitivities in
general, and a need to provide good, supportive information not
only to the immediate stakeholders mentioned above, but also to
the community at large.
The National Conference on Children with Sensitivities will be
held at Algonquin College, 31 May and 1 June, 1996. There will
be presentations from knowledgeable professionals in the fields
of medicine, housing and building research and design, education,
learning disabilities, public health and primary health care, and
public policy circles. Their presentations will describe
practical answers to learning and health problems experienced by
children with sensitivities. Recent advances will be celebrated.
According to the Learning Disabilities Association of Ontario,
children with untreated learning and behavioural disabilities are
at increased risk for various social and economic problems. Poor
school performance can restrict economic opportunities. Poor
social performance can lead to problems including poor
self-image, delinquency, drug abuse, economic dependency, and
lack of success in emotional relationships. Children with
untreated behaviour disabilities can become adults at risk for
criminal activity, family violence, economic dependency or poor
job performance. Many of the emotional and social problems of
persons with untreated disabilities extend into adult life,
complicated by developmental problems associated with their
disability. As has been argued successfully by the Learning
Disabilities Association in the past, there are great emotional,
social, and financial savings when such disabilities are
identified at an early stage. We believe that improved awareness
will result in earlier detection of learning and behaviour
problems associated with sensitivities.
Canada Mortgage and Housing researchers have extensively examined
indoor air quality, healthy building environments, and developed
the means of accommodating persons with sensitivities.
Researchers and field experience show that in housing as in other
areas the accommodation of children with sensitivities is in most
cases inexpensive, usually involving appropriate attitudes and
informed choices rather than extra expenditures.
The conference is sponsored by the Ottawa Branch of the Allergy
and Environmental Health Association. The keynote speaker is Dr.
Doris Rapp, long cited in Ontario Ministry of Education materials
as an expert in the field. Dr. Rapp will give a public lecture
on the eve of the conference. The next morning she will be
joined by a panel of educators, including specialists in special
education and learning disabilities. The rest of the day will
cover housing and social issues affecting children with
sensitivities, and an update on the new clinic at Women's College
Hospital funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health.
People with sensitivities have come a long way. The health,
housing, education, and social policy communities have come a
long way on the issue as well. We hope you will help us
celebrate this success.
Elizabeth Stutt
Conference Chairperson
613-825-8388
Chris Brown
Conference Fundraising
613-236-7683
chris...@devcan.ca
---
þ CMPQwk #1.42þ UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
leo meunier
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
> Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
> Vitamin-R!
>
>
> Mostly written by Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post
> Service.
> Additional comments by Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press
Very good parady. You almost had me believing you were serious.
Sometimes I am sooo gullible. Must be parental deficite dissorder.
HAHAHA
Leo
julie_z.
Welcome to FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS about
alt.support.attn-deficit. It is administered by Joe Parsons
(j...@cyber-mall.com) on a more-or-less regular basis and posted
weekly to alt.support.attn-deficit.
The author disclaims any responsibility for the information
contained in this document, although it was believed accurate as
of the time of posting. It is not to be considered an
authoritative work on the diagnosis of or treatment for attention
deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Permission is hereby granted to republish, repost, email or
reproduce this document by any means, with the express condition
that it be published, posted or transmitted in its entirety, with
no alterations or abridgments whatsoever.
Copyright 1996 by Joe Parsons. All rights reserved.
1) Introduction
2) What is "attention deficit disorder?"
3) What is the purpose of a.s.a-d?
4) Oh, yeah? who says?
5) Who's the moderator on this board?
6) I think you're all just lazy parents and incompetent teachers
who want to drug kids; don't I have a right to express my opinion?
7) I've got a great new non-drug therapy you people should try;
is it okay if I just post a few messages?
8) I think this whole ADD thing is a bunch of baloney! Why are
you all so defensive?
9) What's this stuff about "trolls?"
10) How can I find out more about AD(H)D?
11) Who is Joe Parsons, anyway??
12) Thanks to...
1) Introduction
This short document will introduce you to the informal electronic
gathering of folks we call alt.support.attn-deficit ("a.s.a-d").
It will provide a brief introduction to the collection of symptoms
and behaviors referred to as "attention deficit disorder (ADD)" or
"attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)." It is not
intended as any sort of treatise on diagnosis, treatment or
management of ADD or ADHD, but rather as an introduction to this
support group.
2) What is "attention deficit disorder?"
Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder (ADD, ADHD or AD(H)D)
is a neurological condition whose primary symptoms are
distractibility, impulsiveness and restlessness. The condition is
frequently observed in school-age children as an inability to pay
attention or complete classwork, often accompanied by a
high-energy, ants-in-the-pants demeanor.
In adults, ADD tends to manifest itself as inattentiveness,
absent-mindedness, impulsiveness, lack of follow-through and an
elastic perception of time. These behaviors may have led to poor
performance in school and in the workplace, and low self esteem
and clinical depression frequently travel hand-in-hand with ADD.
3) What is the purpose of a.s.a-d?
This newsgroup was formed by and for people who have been affected
by ADD. This includes people who have been diagnosed with ADD,
people whose spouses have ADD, adults who suspect they may have
it, and parents of AD(H)D children.
The participants come to a.s.a-d to receive and to offer support;
there are discussions about research, diagnosis and treatment,
attitudes toward ADD, coping strategies, occasional expressions of
frustration, outrage or joy, and the occasional venting of
spleens.
It was NOT formed to provide a forum for (nor does it find useful)
articles
* Debating the existence of AD(H)D
* Pontificating about "lazy" parents or teachers
* Debating the "right" or "wrong" of medication
* Selling "alternatives" or "cures."
4) Oh, yeah? who says?
Usenet (and Altnet) operate by consensus. While there are no
"laws" governing the operation of an international entity such as
the Net, there are many established and universally accepted
customs covering what is and is not appropriate.
To learn more about these customs ("netiquette"), go to
news.answers.newusers and read the many articles written to help
newcomers.
5) Who's the moderator on this board?
There is no "moderator" in a.s.a-d. A *newsgroup* such as this
one is NOT a bulletin board service (BBS) like Compuserve or
America Online. While there are some Usenet newsgroups with
moderators, we have seen no substantial need for one here. The
absence of a moderator, however, does not reduce your
responsibility for proper conduct: just as you are expected to
behave in the "real world," there are expectations in
newsgroups--particularly in a.s.a-d.
We hope you'll behave with courtesy, civility and compassion, just
as we are sure you do in the real world, where we can see your
face--and put our hands on you.
6) I think you're all just lazy parents and incompetent teachers
who want to drug kids; don't I have a right to express my opinion?
You have the right to your own opinion. You have the right to
express it, but PLEASE consider the audience you are addressing.
This is a SUPPORT newsgroup, and your desire to debate belongs in
a forum that has been chartered for such discussion. We are here
to help each other, not to argue.
Here's an analogy: let's say you learn about a support group for
people who have attempted suicide. The group meets in your public
library and since the library is a public place, you are allowed
into the meeting. Each time someone in the meeting talks about
how they had attempted suicide, you respond to them by telling
them they are just cowards, looking for an easy way out. They
should just "snap out of it," you say. Would this be against the
law? Probably not. Would it be morally reprehensible? I hope
you know the answer.
Support groups exist to provide a *safe* place for people to deal
with a problem or condition--not to make them an easier target for
derision. Our asking you to behave politely and compassionately
does not comprise censorship.
7) I've got a great new non-drug therapy you people should try;
is it okay if I just post a few messages?
If your first and only appearance in this newsgroup has been to
sell your product, we suspect that this is your only reason for
being here. We are not interested in hearing from you. You can
be assured that most of us who might consider "alternative"
treatments have already done so--ADD people (and parents or
spouses of ADD people) are *very* good at research. None of us is
interested in reading your brochures. Or in debating the nasty
medical establishment. Or in trying to pin down your extravagant
claims. Please go away.
If, on the other hand, you have been here for a while, sharing
YOUR REAL, PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and want to discuss alternatives
you might have discovered, then our attitude might be different.
If we discover that your agenda is really to sell a product,
however, you can expect the climate to turn very chilly.
8) I think this whole ADD thing is a bunch of baloney! Why are
you all so defensive?
Many ADD people have been wrestling with the ignorance of others
all their lives. If you post an article suggesting that ADD is
just a "myth" or an "excuse," you should back up your statements
with solid, documentable facts.
Hint: the following phrases are not considered "facts" or
"proof;"
"It's just common sense."
"Everybody knows."
"I heard about an article that said..."
"A doctor at a leading hospital says..."
On the contrary: those phrases may well cause you to be branded an
idiot.
For extra credit, please refer to the analogy in section (6)
above.
If you feel compelled to debate the existence of AD(H)D, please go
to alt.debate.attn-deficit, where you will find the appropriate
audience for your position.
9) What's this stuff about "trolls?"
A "troll" is an article posted for the sole purpose of provoking a
reaction. Trolls can often be recognized by their subject line,
which may have a provocative title such as "You ADD people are
just a bunch of speed freaks," or "Why are you turning your
innocent children into zombies?" The poster really has nothing
worthwhile to say relative to ADD; he just wants to create a long
thread. The fact that he is hurting vulnerable people means
nothing to him.
The best way to handle such a cretin is *not* to give him the
attention he craves. Answer him by e-mail if you must; that way
you will not encourage him or give him the opportunity to clutter
the newsgroup any more.
10) How can I find out more about AD(H)D?
There's no shortage of resources; if you do a web search on ADD or
ADHD, you'll turn up lots of places to go. There is a non-profit
organization called CH.A.D.D (Children and Adults with A.D.D.)
that has a homepage at http://www.chadd.org. You'll find many
useful links from their page.
(PLEASE NOTE: while many participants in the newsgroup are
members of CH.A.D.D. alt.support.attn-deficit is in NO WAY
affiliated with or supported by CH.A.D.D.)
There are some excellent books on the topic of ADD and its
management. Some of the titles you'll see mentioned are
"Driven to Distraction," by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D.
"You Mean, I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!!" by Peggy Ramundo
and Kate Kelly
"ADD: A Different Perspective," by Thom Hartmann
There are lots more; hang around the newsgroup and you'll hear
about them--or feel free to ask.
11) Who is Joe Parsons, anyway??
Joe Parsons is a writer living and working in the San Francisco
Bay Area. Since his fans at present are primarily people who
don't send him enough money to meet his overhead, he works in
mortgage banking, too. He spends as much time as he can manage
sailing "Good Faith" out of Berkeley, California. One of the
great epiphanies of his life was reading Ned Hallowell's "Driven
to Distraction;" he still thinks it was written about him.
He can be reached at
One other thing you should know about Joe Parsons: He HATES
excessive quoting in Usenet and in email. He thinks quoting an
entire article just to add three words is a clear indication of
cluelessness.
12) Thanks to...
This document could not have been prepared without the
contributions of
John Thompson
Graeme Smith
Cheryl Mathison
Nancy Gleason
Yoav Altman
Jan Thiessen
The author is also indebted to Arthur Byrne, whose FAQ-writing
advice has been invaluable.
He is especially grateful to the many "regulars" in
alt.support.attn-deficit who give so extravagantly of themselves
in reaching out to others.
He has also received some valuable feedback from a small number of
people who say they hate his guts.
Revision History:
3/19/96: Initial publication
====================================================
(comment: Why the heck would the author of the following
post it in "food not bombs" anyhow? Their article has nothing
to do with either!)
My apologies to the other "non add" groups... But the followups
had to go wherever he posted.
Julie Z.
On 6 Apr 1996 23:57:15 GMT, "Dr. Richard X. Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
>Vitamin-R!
>
(rest of article snipped.)
Shawn Glisson
>Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
>Vitamin-R!
<Most of Ritalin scare-article snipped>
>That is the absolute truth. This medicine should not have been released in
>the first place, or have been limited to less than 1 percent of those on it
>now.
What? Who's words are these being spoken? Are these the words of
Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post Service or from
Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press. This seems to be the
typical warped sensationalized fear-mongering story prevalent among
today's supposed journalists. Where does this "less than 1 percent"
figure come from? Care to cite the scientific basis for this figure?
> Dr. Judith Parker, a caring and trustworthy psychologist has these
>words of medical advice: "ADD should be more accurately be called PADD
>(Parental Attention Deficit Disorder). What is missing in the lives of
>these kids is not the "cane" but the focused love and attention of
>adults they love and respect. Anyone who has observed the effects of
>paying loving attention to children knows that this is the ultimate
>calming tranquilizer." Dr. Parker also states that, "I think there is
>an obvious explanation of why this disorder didn't exist before World
>War II, or at least to the degree it does now. The reason is because
>prior to that time, most mothers stayed in the home and focused their
>attention on raising their own children, instead of warehousing them in
>overcrowded daycare and after school care where they do not get enough
>one on one attention from adults." Some brilliant and sage advice from
>a most trusted and caring physician. Hopefully, her words will be heard
>by the Medical Establishment, and the Pharmaceutical and Insurance
>Companies in America, who always put profits before any moral and
>ethical considerations.
Oh ya, thank goodness we have a press core "who always put profits
before any moral and ethical considerations" NOT.
Dr. Parker's comments may be among the most offensive garbage I have
seen posted to this forum. She has accurately cited one of the most
pressing social concerns of our society, a lack of cultural priority
to children and parenting; however, to attempt to relate this to ADD
without any scientific basis and in contradiction to solid scientific
evidence to the contrary is incredibly irresponsible by both Dr.
Parker and the authors of this article.
Oh yes, what were Dr. Parker's credentials to judge ADD pathology; she
is a "caring and trustworthy psychologist." Ya, Right!
The "focused love and attention of adults" is among the most valuable
gifts I can claim that my poor hopelessly confused ADD mother provided
me in childhood. I can only imagine the life we could have had as a
young family, if only our genetically inherited ADD traits had been
diagnosed those many years ago and treated accordingly.
Clearly our commercial press has discovered that it can sell more pubs
by scaring the hell out of parents. Newsweek exemplified this
principle when the editors decided to title an overall balanced
article about ADD with a cover-story titled "Ritilin: Are We
Overmedicating Our Kids?" (March 18, 1996). I can already see the
Hollywood TV-movie in the making: "Ritilin, a Mothers fight to save
her baby!" Perhaps Dr. Frager can parlay this journalistic "scoop"
into a Gerlado appearance.
It looks like Laura Sessions Stepp and Dr. Richard Frager have seen an
opportunity to profit from creating unwarranted parental grief while
perhaps simultaneously depriving thousands of ADD victims the
treatment they deserve and the treatment that our society would most
benefit from.
But this time, those who are suffering from the abuses by these
powerful interests of media moguls are the youngest and the least
protected members of our society: America's and the World's mothers
and children.
Sincerely offended,
- Shawn Glisson
(Gli...@atlanta.com)
Shawn Glisson
>Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
>Vitamin-R!
< body of article snipped >
>Mostly written by Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post
>Service.
>Additional comments by Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press
Does Laura Sessions Stepp of the LA Times-Washington Post
Service actually exists? If so, is the LA Times-Washington Post
Service aware that their copyrighted material is being edited and
modified by Dr. Richard Frager and posted in free public forums?
- Shawn
(Gli...@atlanta.com)
John Palmer
(in re: ADD)
: Clearly our commercial press has discovered that it can sell more pubs
: by scaring the hell out of parents.
Actually, the idea isn't quite as much to scare the parents as it is to
anger the self-righteous goobers who, ignorant of ADD, love to scold those
who would DARE DRUG THEIR CHILDREN. You see, it's an issue where it's easy
for the ignorant to take a supposed moral high ground. . . and hard to
educate those ignorant people.
That's why I'm careful to try to tread on the "suffering" track. ADD
can and does cause suffering, especially when you can't control the
symptoms at all. In my case it caused such horrible fatigue that I was
extremely close to committing suicide. It can also lead to anxiety,
depression, and unhealthy obsessive/compulsive behaviors. (not necessarily
"obsessive compulsive disorder")
Once I've pointed this out, sometimes those people realize that they
might, in their ignorance, cause suffering. Then, if they still don't
care, well, then I don't feel bad if I get mad. . . it's appropriate to be
angry with people who want kids to suffer because of their own personal
prejudices.
Dr. Richard Frager
>
>
>Dr. Parker's comments may be among the most offensive garbage I have
>seen posted to this forum.
>It looks like Laura Sessions Stepp and Dr. Richard Frager have seen an
>opportunity to profit
> - Shawn Glisson
> (Gli...@atlanta.com)
It an old ruse, attack the person and not the argument. Obviously we are on the right
track or else you wouldn't take such an extreme counter-view. Or most likely, you
have a vested interest in Ritalin somewhere. Again, I stick by the original post.
"Nuff Said!
John Palmer
: gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
: It an old ruse, attack the person and not the argument. Obviously we are on the right
: have a vested interest in Ritalin somewhere. Again, I stick by the original post.
Stick it up your ass, "doc". If you had to live, day in and day out,
with the suffering of ADD, and if you had dozens of assholes like yourself
trying to pretend that ritalin is Satan Incarnate, you'd get pretty ticked
off too.
Joe Parsons
This posting from a "Dr. Richard X. Frager" purports to be a
newspaper article about Ritalin abuse by children and teens.
Aside from the lack of date attribution, there are a couple other
interesting features: the posting originated from teleport.com,
the source of numerous other similar postings, and yet Finger
doesn't recognize this "rfrager" user.
Assuming that even a part of the original article even existed,
the "additional comments" from the poster (and not attributed as
such) display the true intent of the poster.
If anyone has seen the original (hardcopy) published article, I'd
like to know the date of publication. A comparison of this troll
with the original might prove illuminating.
Joe Parsons
On 6 Apr 1996 23:57:15 GMT, "Dr. Richard X. Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
>Vitamin-R!
>
[snip]
Shawn Glisson
>S: Dr. Parker's comments may be among the most offensive garbage
>S: I have seen posted to this forum.
>S: It looks like Laura Sessions Stepp and Dr. Richard Frager have
>S: seen an opportunity to profit
"Dr. Richard Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> responds:
>R: It an old ruse, attack the person and not the argument. Obviously we are on the right
>R: track or else you wouldn't take such an extreme counter-view. Or most likely, you
>R: have a vested interest in Ritalin somewhere. Again, I stick by the original post.
Richard,
Is this your response promised to me via E-Mail?
"Although I wasn't thrilled with the tone of your response, I will
save your e-mail and respond to it this weekend."
Obviously, none of us were thrilled with the tone of your article.
For some reason you have opted to ignore my attacks on the argument--
no response to my questions such as:
>S: Where does this "less than 1 percent"
>S: figure come from? Care to cite the scientific basis for this figure?
or
>S: What? Who's words are these being spoken? Are these the words of
>S: Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post Service or from
>S: Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press.
or
>S: Does Laura Sessions Stepp of the LA Times-Washington Post
>S: Service actually exists? If so, is the LA Times-Washington Post
>S: Service aware that their copyrighted material is being edited and
>S: modified by Dr. Richard Frager and posted in free public forums?
My attacks on the authors were an obvious parallel to your own
arguments and in parody of your attacks on the "Pharmaceutical and
Insurance Companies in America, who always put profits before any
moral and ethical considerations." If you do not appreciate such
attacks on the person, then you should refrain from asserting such
arguments yourself. Your assertion that the attention deficit
disorder is simply a "newfangled 'spindrome'" is a direct insult to
nearly every participant in this forum and in direct contradiction to
the reality that all of us that have experienced it. Your supposes
"newfangled spindrom" is a challenge (and sometimes asset) that I have
had to battle all of my life, prior to any recent press attention.
When you quote individuals as experts on a subject, it is appropriate
to challenge and query for the "experts" credentials. What are Dr.
Parker's credentials?
Dr. Judith Parker's comments that "ADD should be more accurately be
called PADD (Parental Attention Deficit Disorder) is a direct assault
on many members of this forum and terribly irresponsible.
Although John and I spend more time arguing, I must agree with him on
this one:
jpa...@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote:
>J: ADD can and does cause suffering, especially when you can't control the
>J: symptoms at all. In my case it caused such horrible fatigue that I was
>J: extremely close to committing suicide. It can also lead to anxiety,
>J: depression, and unhealthy obsessive/compulsive behaviors. (not necessarily
>J: "obsessive compulsive disorder")
>J: Once I've pointed this out, sometimes those people realize that they
>J: might, in their ignorance, cause suffering. Then, if they still don't
>J: care, well, then I don't feel bad if I get mad. . . it's appropriate to be
>J: angry with people who want kids to suffer because of their own personal
>J: prejudices.
Since the ADD syndrome is often accompanied by depression which can
lead to suicide, your thoughtless comments and fallacious writings
could actually cost someone their life. Perhaps you could claim
ignorance at first, but if you have read anything regarding this
subject or the postings of this forum, you would now know differently.
For you to continue with such a tone can only generate anger.
To respond to your earlier statement; no, I do NOT "have a vested
interest in Ritalin somewhere." Never have, never will. I'm in the
computer software business. I'm not even taking Ritalin myself at the
moment.
So, what is your motivation? For whom did you write the article? Who
is the Amalgamated Press? What kind of doctor are you? Do you have a
real job?
- Shawn Glisson
(Gli...@atlanta.com)
Shawn Glisson
Your posting incorrectly states that I made the offensive comments
which were directed to me. Please be more careful with your postings.
Although I share your sentiments towards the "Doc," I would appreciate
it if you would reserve your offensive language to the domain of
private E-mail (if anywhere!).
Thanks,
- Shawn
jpa...@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote:
>Dr. Richard Frager (rfr...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
>: It an old ruse, attack the person and not the argument. Obviously we are on the right
>: track or else you wouldn't take such an extreme counter-view. Or most likely, you
Dr. Richard X. Frager
As a rule, I do not communicate with "crack-pots" - and in this case I
will stick by that rule.
Dr. R.X.F.
j...@mnsinc.com
Good god, then how the hell do you live with yourself?
Jeffrey Fried
equally applicable to you. You may stick to your original post all
you like, but it is still unfounded garbage which has the potential to
do a great deal of harm. I also wonder just who you are. How do you
come by the title "Dr."? Of what are you a "Dr."? If you are a
physician i will be pleased to report your statements to the AMA board
of quality assurance.
... jeff
On 10 Apr 1996 04:33:16 GMT, "Dr. Richard Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dr. Parker's comments may be among the most offensive garbage I have
>>seen posted to this forum.
>
>>It looks like Laura Sessions Stepp and Dr. Richard Frager have seen an
>>opportunity to profit
>> - Shawn Glisson
>> (Gli...@atlanta.com)
>
>It an old ruse, attack the person and not the argument. Obviously we are on the right
>track or else you wouldn't take such an extreme counter-view. Or most likely, you
>have a vested interest in Ritalin somewhere. Again, I stick by the original post.
>
>"Nuff Said!
>
>
Jozef Hand-Boniakowski
chosing rather to browse and learn. That being said, I believe
I'd like to share a few observations, feelings and comments.
I am a parent of a child that his been through more than one
human being should have to deal with. He's had 19 major
surgeries, including a kidney transplant and a bladder augmentation
using bowel as extra material to enlarge capacity. He's had
most of his surgeries prior to the age of six. He is gifted
and talented, extremely bright, and he is diagnosed ADD. Dylan
has been a ham radio operator N1UKP since the age of nine.
Dylan is now ten and for the past five months has been taking
Ritalin. He comes from a loving, caring, accepting family,
who spend many hours daily with him educationally, emotionally
etc. I, in fact, was the kidney donor. It took my wife and I,
a year to make the decision to give Ritalin a try, not wanting
to give him yeat another drug (the 13th in fact) atop his immuno-
sprresant regimen, etc.
This young man under Ritalin, has achieved a quality of life
that can only be described as acceptable by him. his teachers,
his parents. One needs to witness the out-of-controllness of
ADD exacerbated by prednisone to understand the miracle that takes
place five or ten minutes after medication. It cannot be
I cannot begin to describe his look, his emotion, his thinking
and his behavior, when he gets that way.
To suggest that we as parents, who chose to use Ritalin, after
donating a kidney, spending years of our lives with him in
medical emergency after medical emergency are somehow copping
out of our responsibility as parents by administering Ritalin
is an insult. Each of us has to make our own decisions and
each case is unique. While I believe that the drug companies
are pushers for medication to maximize profits, I am nonetheless
grateful for this medication and its appropriate use.
Jozef
D. C. Sessions
>
> Shawn;
>
> As a rule, I do not communicate with "crack-pots" - and in this case I
> will stick by that rule.
Interestingly enough, two articles back in the same thread (see "References:")
that same Dr. Richard X. Frager wrote, in news:4kfdmc%24...@nadine.teleport.com
> ## It an old ruse, attack the person and not the argument. Obviously we are on the right
> ## track or else you wouldn't take such an extreme counter-view. Or most likely, you
> ##have a vested interest in Ritalin somewhere. Again, I stick by the original post.
All in all, we really can't much improve on the good Doctor's observation.
--
D. C. & M. V. Sessions
sess...@primenet.com
http://www.primenet.com/~sessions under construction
Dr. Richard X. Frager
"Stick it up your ass"
"...dozens of assholes like ..."
Oh-oh, looks like another side-effect!!
D. C. Sessions
> > As a rule, I do not communicate with "crack-pots" - and in this case I
> >will stick by that rule.
> Good god, then how the hell do you live with yourself?
When he talks to himself, he's careful to never listen.
John Palmer
: jpa...@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote:
Yes, "doc", it's a side effect of dealing with assholes like you.
BTW: shall we call you "Mark"?
mark...@dpc.net
Thank you for sharing from your heart about your child and his difficulties and
accomplishments in his short life. We, like you, had to decide on the very hard
decision whether or not to give Ritalin a try. And we also found a remarkable
difference in our son, as you did. I wish you the best of luck with your child and
continue in that loving parenting that you sound like you are accomplishing. I hope
that he continues to thrive and be healthy now.
Best Regards,
Kayla...:)
--
David Moisan
I remember you from the Fidonet HAM echo. Welcome!
>and talented, extremely bright, and he is diagnosed ADD. Dylan
>has been a ham radio operator N1UKP since the age of nine.
From N1KGH, please give Dylan my regards!
>To suggest that we as parents, who chose to use Ritalin, after
>donating a kidney, spending years of our lives with him in
>medical emergency after medical emergency are somehow copping
>out of our responsibility as parents by administering Ritalin
Well, to keep this on topic, well said!
Dave
| David Moisan, N1KGH dmo...@shore.net |
| 86 Essex #204 n1...@amsat.org |
| Salem. MA 01970-5225 http://www.shore.net/~dmoisan |
| "Did you know there's PP on your SLIP?"--Yakko Hacker |
Shawn Glisson
Since the "Doc" (Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> ) has
refused to respond to the substance of our criticism to his insulting
and fallacious article regarding Ritalin, I thought I would do a
little research to determine what this man's motivation and interest
really is.
It would seem that he is on a mission to boycott and malign eight
major chemical/pharmaceutical manufacturers. The manufacturer of
Ritalin, Ciba-Geigy, is among his targeted victims and apparently the
real subject of his attack (not you poor parents!):
>Boycott Now!
>From: "Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com>
>MessageID: 4jt784$a...@nadine.teleport.com#1/2
>newsgroups: pdx.singles,alt.suburbs
>
> Welcome to the Great Boycott!
>
>Networking with people all over the world, we are mounting a long-term
>publicity campaign to isolate the major criminal poisoners of the planet, so
>that no one wants to do business with them.
>
>We are boycotting the products and the investment stock of the eight biggest
>pesticide companies on earth: Dow, Du Pont, Monsanto, Imperial Chemical
>Industries (England), Rhone Poulenc (France), Ciba-Geigy (Switzerland),
>Bayer and Hoechst (Germany).
>
>All of these companies are forwarding genetic engineering of our food crops.
>Purpose? To create crops that WILL WITHSTAND MUCH GREATER
>LEVELS OF SPRAYED TOXIC HERBICIDES. PROFITS SOAR. PEOPLE
>AND SOIL ARE POISONED. THIS IS REAL.
>< Remainder of article snipped ><
For those of you parents that are concerned that this man may be a
medical doctor that conveys some element of truth, please consider his
following statement posted earlier this month:
>Re: Jews for Homo-Sexual Jesus/The Pope smokes Dope!
>From: "Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com>
>Date: 1996/04/04
>MessageID: 4jvpie$8...@nadine.teleport.com#1/1
>organization: Systems Analysis Synthesis Inc.
>newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.russian,alt.rush-limbaugh,
>alt.religion.christianity,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.current-events.russ
>
>Jesus was a fag and a party-animal. Get your facts right before you
>spout off, pal. This is the biggest cover-up in history, and now it is
>EXPOSED once and for all with the approval of the Vatican and the Pope.
>
>THE POPE SMOKES DOPE!!!
Clearly this is a man of limited concern to the sensitivities of
others which seeks to merely inflame. He apparently has a vendetta
against the chemical/pharmaceutical industry ("pesticide companies")
and is distrusting of any profitable enterprise.
BTW, postings by "H.G. Von Frugellblitz" <ra...@teleport.com> and
"D. Richard X. Frager" are also the work of Dr. Dick (Dr. Richard X.
Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> ).
Do not attribute any validity to his arguments regarding Ritalin and
please evaluate his comments in light of his own declared prejudices
against Ritalin's manufacturer, Ciba-Geigy.
- Shawn Glisson
PS: Richard, I recognize this as an ad hominem attack upon yourself.
You refuse to respond to factual arguments and I feel it is important
to refute any assumption by readers that you may posses some medical
training or knowledge, due to your use of the title "Dr."
Mario Taboada
And who are you, Shawn? And why are you so concerned with the well-being
of the drug industry?
If you were to list *your* credentials, including who you work for, perhaps
your complaint could be taken seriously.
Frager has the same right as everyone else to express his opinions publicly.
Regards,
--
Mario Taboada
"No building is too tall for a small dog to lift his leg on".
* Department of Mathematics * University of Southern California * Los Angeles
e-mail: tab...@mtha.usc.edu
PLBlansett
Where we offer non-medicinal solutions to the problems of behavioral
modification in children and adolescents.
Be sure to sign our "guest Page" and then choose the link over to our
DOWNLOAD RESOURCES where you can download our electronic book:
ADD_INFO.ZIP
PLBlansett, President of Counseling and Consultation Associates and author
of THE ELIJAH PROGRAM, COOPERATIVE COMPLIANCE, THE CERTIFIED CHRISTIAN
MENTOR, and THE CERTIFIED MENTOR. Specializing in Behavioral Modification
in children and in Parenting Solutions. EMail address: PLBla...@AOL.COM
Elijah Program Internet address: http://home.aol.com/Elijahprog
DOWNLOAD A FREE "Book-on-a-Disk" DISK EXPLAINING ATTENTION DEFICIT
DISORDER AND OUR NON-MEDICINAL BEHAVIORAL MODIFICATION METHOD!
Dr. Richard X. Frager
And he most likely has a vested interest in the continued
over-prescribing of Ritalin.
He uses a very old ploy when it comes to defending his weak position.
Attack the person and not the evidence.
If I was in his shoes, I probably would do the same.
Fortuantely, I have morals and a conscious. Also, I have seen
first-hand the use and abuse of the over-prescribed drug of choice,
"Ritalin."
Thank you Mario for your kind words, I know they come from understanding
the situation very well. I also know your words come from the heart,
not the wallet, like the promoters of this addicitve cancer-causing
drug.
Dr. Richard X. Frager
>Josef,
>Thank you for sharing from your heart about your child and his difficulties and >accomplishments in his short life.
Really, that was an outstanding piece of prose.
I think you should contact the drug maker-
Ciba-Giegy, and see if they will let you give
a testimonial for their upcoming advertisements!
The way you describe it, it sounds like everyone should
take it!
Shawn Glisson
>And who are you, Shawn? And why are you so concerned with the well-being
>of the drug industry?
Mario Taboada,
I suspect that you have not followed this thread and the insulting
statements that Richard Frager has made regarding the parents of ADD
children. Take a look at the threads in alt.support.attn-deficit.
I have little concern for the drug industry; however, I have
considerable concern for the well-being and treatment of ADD children
and adults and seek to aid in the dissemination of useful information
in this regard while debunking the erroneous and inflammatory
statements by men such as Richard Frager.
- Shawn
John Palmer
: And he most likely has a vested interest in the continued
: over-prescribing of Ritalin.
: He uses a very old ploy when it comes to defending his weak position.
: Attack the person and not the evidence.
Hey! That's really funny. No, really. Everyone, read those two
paragraphs. It might take a time or two. If you're still having trouble,
look up "irony".
leo meunier
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
> Shawn is probably a flak for the pharmaceutical industry.
> And he most likely has a vested interest in the continued
> over-prescribing of Ritalin.
>
> He uses a very old ploy when it comes to defending his weak position.
> Attack the person and not the evidence.
> If I was in his shoes, I probably would do the same.
> Fortuantely, I have morals and a conscious. Also, I have seen
> first-hand the use and abuse of the over-prescribed drug of choice,
> "Ritalin."
You complain about attacking the person then say shawn "is probably a flak
for the pharmaceutical industry" Imply he has no morals or conscions and
if you were in his shoes you would do the same. What shoes are they.
How about some facts here. Lets practice what we preach.
Leo
leo meunier
meunier) wrote:
I forgot to put in that I recieve no money or other remuneration from drug
companies or companies related to the chemical industries. As a matter of
fact I give money to them every mounth for perscriptions.
JaelleS
<rfr...@teleport.com> writes:
>Really, that was an outstanding piece of prose.
>I think you should contact the drug maker-
>Ciba-Giegy, and see if they will let you give
>a testimonial for their upcoming advertisements!
>
>The way you describe it, it sounds like everyone should
>take it!
You would prefer that his child be condemned to a life of misery and
failure? Very thoughty of you.
MSProbert
Palmer) writes:
> Hey! That's really funny. No, really. Everyone, read those two
>paragraphs. It might take a time or two. If you're still having
trouble,
>look up "irony".
>
>
No, look up "hypocrit."
Mark S. Probert
Merrick, New York
Dr. Richard X. Frager
Lets practice what we preach.
>
>Leo
C'mon Leo. I was not just referring to only ONE post. Scroll back and
read his entire attacks on ME, and not what was posted. He jumped right
out of the gate with all his guns a blazing' without ONCE addressing the
article. Plus, he started to write to me in a very uncalled for
negative tone.
And he still tries to discredit me (with no success I might add!) by
posting something he claims I wrote, but I do not care because I stand
100% behind my original post.
As do many other people, since the private e-mails I get are 4 to 1 in
favor of what I write!!
All the Best
Richard Frager
"At your service"
Shawn Glisson
>Shawn is probably a flak for the pharmaceutical industry.
>And he most likely has a vested interest in the continued
>over-prescribing of Ritalin.
>He uses a very old ploy when it comes to defending his weak position.
>Attack the person and not the evidence.
Again Dr. Dick refuses to debate the issues. Clearly he has no
factual basis from which to argue.
'nuff said.
- Shawn
Nextop
// Plus, he started to write to me in a very uncalled for
negative tone.
And he still tries to discredit me (with no success I might add!) by
posting something he claims I wrote, but I do not care because I stand
100% behind my original post.
As do many other people, since the private e-mails I get are 4 to 1 in
favor of what I write!!
All the Best
Richard Frager
"At your service"//
After reading Dick's last post, are there still people who still claim
that consensual sex with farm animals doesn't affect higher brain
function!
Regards,
Al Kammen
Francis Clarke
Thanks
fc
Dr. Richard X. Frager wrote:
>
> lj...@gte.com (leo meunier) wrote:
>
> Lets practice what we preach.
> >
> >Leo
>
--
A reluctant hacker:/
Shawn Glisson
>And he still tries to discredit me (with no success I might add!) by
>posting something he claims I wrote, but I do not care because I stand
>100% behind my original post.
Ok, here is another example of Dr. Dick posing as someone else, Dr.
H.G. Von Frugelblitzz, to serve as his own "expert" authority:
>McDonalds = Diarrhea=Heart Disease=Death
>From: "Dr. Richard Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com>
>Date: 1996/03/08
>MessageID: 4hol68$m...@nadine.teleport.com#1/1
>organization: Fragers Molecular Robotics and Nanotechnologies
>x-url: news:alt.mcdonalds?ALL
>newsgroups: alt.mcdonalds
>x-mailer: Mozilla 1.12(Macintosh; I; 68K)
>[AP] - A recent poll by the National Scientific Foundation of America
>[N.S.F.A.] found that 36% of senior citizens suffer from constipation
>and diarrhea after a meal at McDonalds. Statistics for younger eaters
>have not been tabulated yet, but Dr. H.G. Von Frugelblitzz from an
>Independent Reserach Laboratory stated emphatically, "The numbers look
>terrible in regards to stomach complications for all ages.
>Add to that the clogging of the arteries to the heart due to the high
>fat contents of the food, you are asking for trouble." When asked if
>eating at McDonalds would shorten one's life span, Dr. Frugelblitzz did
>not hesitate, when he said, "YES! Eating at McDonalds leads to death!
>Solution: Don't eat at McDonalds, EVER." Truer words were never
>spoken.
>Amalgamated Press
I presume his use of the [AP] heading at the beginning of the article
was in reference to his concocted Amalgamated Press and used in an
attempt to confuse readers with the more authoritive Associated Press.
Clearly, this is a man with no journalistic ethics nor training; he
seeks merely to inflame and deceive his readers. Nor does he appear
to have any medical training nor knowledge.
Richard, you had best bow out of this Ritalin discussion and the
alt.support.attn-deficit forum; we will continue to shred you in all
of your posted forums as long as you make these insulting and
fallacious assertions here.
- Shawn Glisson
Shawn Glisson
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>R: He jumped right out of the gate with all his guns a blazing' without ONCE
>R: addressing the article.
Well Dr. Dick, you continue to attack us personally while refusing to
answer factual questions posed about your article, such as my former
postings:
>S: Where does this "less than 1 percent"
>S: figure come from? Care to cite the scientific basis for this figure?
or
>S: What? Who's words are these being spoken? Are these the words of
>S: Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post Service or from
>S: Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press.
>S: What is the Amalgamated Press?
or
>S: Does Laura Sessions Stepp of the LA Times-Washington Post
>S: Service actually exists? If so, is the LA Times-Washington Post
>S: Service aware that their copyrighted material is being edited and
>S: modified by Dr. Richard Frager and posted in free public forums?
and
>S: What is the scientific basis for Dr. Parker's conclusions and what
>S: were Dr. Parker's credentials to judge ADD pathology?
While speaking about myself, Dr. Dick (Richard Frager) asserts:
>And he still tries to discredit me (with no success I might add!) by
>posting something he claims I wrote, but I do not care because I stand
>100% behind my original post.
So, are you simply trying to imply I misrepresented your recent
postings without actually denying their validity? If those were not
your words, then let's hear about it!
I do not need to discredit you; your own words are quite effective in
accomplishing that task for me.
Yours truly,
- Shawn Glisson
Dr. Richard X. Frager
Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
Vitamin-R!
Slade, a student at Thomas S. Wootton High School in Rockville, Md.,
usually waited until lunch before approaching a couple of buddies. When
the time came he said, "Let's go to my office," and they'd steal away to
a concrete stoop outside that Slade claimed as his own. He reached into
his pocket for several tine pills. The cigarette lighter came next, or
his newly acquired driver's license, or anything else he could find to
crush the pills into powder. Sometimes he used the heel of his shoe,
grinding the tablets on the pavement before scooping up the powder with
a rolled-up dollar bill.
One snort gave Slade, who asked that his last name not be used, a
jolt akin to drinking a quick cup of strong coffee. Two snorts, and "I
thought I could do more work. I felt like going to class." From last
April until late summer, Slade snorted his way to a high several times
daily. His drug of choice: Methylphenidate, that brand name for
Ritalin. Touted as a wonder drug for children with attention deficit
disorder, methylphenidate is also muscling its way into the illicit drug
culture with a speed that alarms substance-abuse counselors and federal
drug experts. Kids take it "Vitamin R," "R-ball" or the "the smart
drug" and seek it out, believing it will help them study better and
party harder.
With more than 2 million children taking it legally, procuring it
illegally is a cinch: a cousin's medicine cabinet; a deal cut in the
school bathroom; a mother's bedside table (the drug is sometimes
prescribed for depression in adults). And, because it's a legal drug,
many young people see no harm in either snorting it or gulping down
larger-than therapeutic doses. "We have always had some problems with
(methylphenidate) abuse and traffic," says Gene Haislip, chief of
diversion control for the Drug Enforcement Administration. "But it has
never been pervasive because there never was much available...That
situation has begun to change radically."
Methylphenidate abuse among schoolchildren is relatively recent
and, therefore, poorly documented. The annual survey "Monitoring the
Future," by the University of Michigan, gives a hint of a trend: In
1994, more than twice as many high school seniors--representing about
350,000 students nationwide--said they had abused methylphenidate as in
1993. At Episcopal High School in Alexandria, Va., three students were
expelled last spring after 25 students were discovered misusing the
drug, according to school officials. Headmaster Lee S. Ainslie said
four boys, for whom Ritalin was prescribed, shared the drug with other
students who were hoping it would improve their concentration and help
them make better grades on exam and papers. Three students were expelled
from the Episcopal High School.
Schools in Roanoke, Va.; West Palm Beach, Fla; Merion, Pa; and suburban
Cincinnati have reported similar expulsions.
For many children who are healthy and those diagnosed with the
newfangled "spindrome" called attention deficit disorder, ritilan
produces a quick burst of energy, even euphoria, that lasts several
hours if snorted or ingested in relatively large quantities. A normal
dose is 5 to 10 milligrams, depending on one's size. The child who
exceeds that dose risks tremors, seizures, hypertension, psychosis, even
stroke, according to pharmacologist Earl Siegel, deputy director of the
Drug and Poison Center at the University of Cincinnati. "The
misconception is that it's innocuous, like taking and over-the counter
stimulant "No-Doz. It's certainly stronger than that," Siegal says.
Several DEATHS have been attributed to its abuse, including that of a
high school senior in Roanoke!
According to the DEA, emergency room admissions attributed to
methylphenidate numbered 1,711 in 1994, up slightly from previous years.
The proportion of children involved in such incidents also has risen, to
more than half the total. These figures may, in fact be too low,
according to the DEA's Haislip, because they're taken primarily from
urban hospitals, and methylphenidate abuse is largely a suburban
problem. One reason the drug is popular among some younger teens is
cost, typically between $1 and $5 a pill. "Ritalin's really the only
drug you can get when you're younger," says a 13-year old student at a
Herndon, Va., middle school. The boy, for whom Ritalin is prescribed,
pockets the pills his mom leaves with his lunch money; he then sells or
gives them away.
Todd Forte, a spokseman for the Ritalin manufacturer, the
Pharmaceutical company Ciba-Geigy Corp, gives the party-line, accusing
the media and counselors of "overreacting." Harvey Parker, co-founder
of Children and Adults With Attention Deficit disorders, a national
support group, says that twice within the last six months, the
organization has alerted parents to the potential for methylphenidate
abuse. But the group is partly responsible for the drug's meteoric
rise, Haislip says. The organization promotes methylphenidate, using
the name Ritalin, at seminars and in its written material to parents, he
says. A DEA report chastises the group for taking money from Ciba-Geigy
to help pay for seminars and brochures. "The relationship between
Ciba-Geigy and Ritalin raises serious concerns about CHADD's motive in
proselytizing the use of Ritalin," the paper states. A CHADD spokesman
says Ciba-Geigy contributed $820,000 to the organization from 1987
through 1994. Drug abuse experts are worried because the group has
petitioned the federal government to loosen restrictions on the
production and prescription of the drug.
Children taking Ritalin can become psychologically dependent, says
the DEA. And there's always a strong possibility that they may move
onto other drugs, including cocaine and other potentially
life-threatening substances. The agency attributes the reported rise in
abuse partly to the drug's phenomenal popularity in the legal market.
The number of children for whom the drug is prescribed is at least 2.4
million, twice as many as 1990. The amount filled by pharmacists is six
times what it was in 1990. The buyers are hardly urban: The top 10
states for amounts prescribed per 100,000 residents include Idaho, New
Hampshire and Alaska.
Wade Horn, former director of CHADD, says parents go for Rtialin
too quickly when their children are disruptive or start failing in
school. Horn, a child psychologist, says Ritalin is "far too popular
and kids are being over-diagnosed. Parents shop for the diagnosis of
ADD. They get mad at you if you refuse. I've never seen anything
similar in all my years of psychology." The insurance companies
contribute to this, Horn says, because, they're more willing to
reimburse a parent for a prescription than for a comprehensive
psychological evaluation. The group CHADD does not mice words in its
most recent newsletter: Children "need to understand the danger of
someone taking their medication without medical supervision and that it
could have serious consequences for them, as well." That is the
absolute truth. This medicine should not have been released in the
first place, or have been limited to less than 1 percent of those on it
now.
Dr. Judith Parker, a caring and trustworthy psychologist has these
words of medical advice: "ADD should be more accurately be called PADD
(Parental Attention Deficit Disorder). What is missing in the lives of
these kids is not the "cane" but the focused love and attention of
adults they love and respect. Anyone who has observed the effects of
paying loving attention to children knows that this is the ultimate
calming tranquilizer." Dr. Parker also states that, "I think there is
an obvious explanation of why this disorder didn't exist before World
War II, or at least to the degree it does now. The reason is because
prior to that time, most mothers stayed in the home and focused their
attention on raising their own children, instead of warehousing them in
overcrowded daycare and after school care where they do not get enough
one on one attention from adults." Some brilliant and sage advice from
a most trusted and caring physician. Hopefully, her words will be heard
by the Medical Establishment, and the Pharmaceutical and Insurance
Companies in America, who always put profits before any moral and
ethical considerations. But this time, those who are suffering from
the abuses by these powerful interests are the youngest and the least
protected members of our society: America's and the World's children.
Mostly written by Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post
Service.
Additional comments by Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press
Frank H. Krautter
I write as a family physician of 15 years experience, faculty in a
residency program. I have a handful of kids that I provide ritalin to.
It has been life life changing for them. Grades have gone from F's to A's.
The kids themselves can graphically testify how it affects their behavior.
I use a single dose in the morning, so no carrying pills to class.
Anyone who prescibes even tylenol to be given in school rapidly discovers
that the pills must be given to school nurses who then dispense it.
The kids do fine on weekends when they DON'T get the pills
The kids do fine in summers when they DON'T get the pills
I have seen no withdrawal, and no reported euphoria by parents or teachers.
Your article certainly is alarming.
Your article has no balance whatsoever.
What kind of doctor are you? What is your training?
Every drug I use has many many many bad effects. That is why they are not
handed out willy nilly, but are given for exact purposes, after careful
discussion and examination of patients.
Take medications away, and you throw us back to the nightmares of the
1800's and before when we had nothing useful to do for patients.
If you really want to save lives, work on tobbaco. 50,000 deaths a year. I
know. I watch many of them die, and many many fight the addiction.
Frank Krautter MD f...@riker.neoucom.edu
Family Practice Center
Western Reserve Care System (WRCS)
PO Box 240
Youngstown, Ohio 44501
D.C. Sessions
> And he still tries to discredit me (with no success I might add!) by
> posting something he claims I wrote, but I do not care because I stand
> 100% behind my original post.
> As do many other people, since the private e-mails I get are 4 to 1 in
> favor of what I write!!
Why is it always 4:1? Couldn't they at least make it 7:2 or 15:4 or
something different once in a while? Is ther some mystical significance
to the ratio 4:1 that only scamentologists know?
--
D. C. Sessions
dc.se...@tempe.vlsi.com
D.C. Sessions
> He uses a very old ploy when it comes to defending his weak position.
> Attack the person and not the evidence.
Have you noticed that some people can't seem to stop talking about
themselves? I'm sure that there's something profoundly psychological
about it all.
Chris Brown
DS>themselves? I'm sure that there's something profoundly psychological
DS>about it all.
Be nice. Often they are abused people who have not learned to cry.
---
þ CMPQwk #1.42þ UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
Dr. Richard X. Frager
still claim
>that consensual sex with farm animals doesn't affect higher brain
>function!
>
>Regards,
>
>Al Kammen
>
Like I said: Attack the person, not the evidence. That was pretty
desperate but typical. By the way, that's how LBJ won his first
election, by accusing his opponent of realtionships with farm animals.
His campaign manager didn't think anybody would believe it, but LBJ was
100% serious when he said, "Let the poor bastard try to deny it!" LBJ's
techniques kind of sounds like your pathtic posts, Al, mostly hot air,
and nothing but smoke and mirrors to cover your lack of reasoning.
Typical, I'm sure you will keep at it, since that's all you have left!
Shawn Glisson
>Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
>Vitamin-R!
< Fallacious and inflammatory article snipped >
>Mostly written by Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post
>Service.
>Additional comments by Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press
I received a response back from the Washington Post which confirms our
suspicions that Richard Frager is a fraud:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Stepp, Laura" <Ste...@washpost.com>
To: "'smtp:gli...@atlanta.com'" <gli...@atlanta.com>
Subject: Wash Post reply
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 12:44:00 PDT
Encoding: 15 TEXT
Please be advised that the article posted to a Usenet forum by Richard
Frager, "Ritalin for Kids..." DOES NOT accurately reflect the story I
wrote and should not go out attributed to me or to The Washington
Post. Frager included several paragraphs of his own in the story, and
modified my phrasing to reflect his own bias.
I will be in touch with Frager separately. Thank you for alerting us
to this potential problem.
Laura Sessions Stepp
Staff Writer
The Washington Post
April 22, 1996
E-mail: Ste...@WashPost.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Shawn Glisson
Joe Parsons
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for "Dr. Frager" to respond.
He has posted similar articles masquerading as journalism, and he
does not have the ability the inclination or, for that matter, the
integrity to respond.
The article which purports to be primarily written by a Laura
Sessions Stepps, a contributor to the Washington Post, was altered
and reposted without the knowledge or consent of the author or the
copyright holder. Given what appears to be extreme distortions of
Ms. Stepps' views, the Post has more than a casual interest in
this Frager character's activities.
He crossposted another diatribe in January entitled "Establishment
'Educators' Push Drugs on Disruptive, Fussy Children! Reading,
Writing and Ritalin!" One point of interest in this typically
distorted, lie-filled posting is that he quotes a Dennis Clarke of
the "Citizens Commission on Human Rights," which, if I am not
mistaken, is affiliated with the "Church" of Scientology. The CO$
has been rabidly anti-medicine and anti-drug, and particularly
anti-Ritalin.
It cuts into their "auditing" business.
I think we're getting a much clearer picture of where "Dr. Frager"
is coming from.
I'd be interested in knowing where the "Dr." comes from, too.
Joe Parsons
Dr. Richard X. Frager
Nothing as usual
<Snip>
>- Shawn Glisson
At least you didn't go so far as to you accuse me of realtions with farm
animals like Nextop. But I'm sure you will think of something in that
twisted mind of yours. In the meantime, stay off the Ritalin, it does
reduce one's life expectancy, and it wouldn't be fun not to have you to
kick around anymore.
Although you are in good company, millions of school-age children are
forced to take "ritalin" - no doubt by the likes of close-minded idiots
like you. Keep the faith Shawn, that may be all you have left.
You better bow out of the ritalin disucssion, since you will not
divlulge you intense interest in it!!
Dr. Richard X. Frager
>So, are you simply trying to imply I misrepresented your recent
>postings >
>- Shawn Glisson
Of course, it is a desperate attempt to justify drugging millions of
kids on ritalin. Why else would you stoop to such low levels, unless
that is all you have left to defend yourself with. That would be the
only logical conclusion!! All your ranting and ravings only show what
kind of lunatic you really are, and that scares the hell out of people,
at least that is what they write me. Personally, I just think you are a
funny "crack-pot" that would say and do anything to discredit somebody.
The major flaw in that strategy is that you make yourself look bad.
Typical though.
leo meunier
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
I agree with DR. X. His consentual sex with farm animals should have
nothing to do with his erational arguments over medication!
Leo
mark...@dpc.net
don't you just leave us alone and let us be supporting of each other and our
families.. I have no use for someone trying to cause trouble here. We, most of us
are here cause we have family members or we ourselves are ADD. Whether or not
we use medication or not is no concern of yours. It works for some and it doesn't
for others. BIG DEAL! I am ADD, I don't take medicine, my son is ADD and does
take medicine. What ever works for the individual is how it is. Leave us alone.
I am sorry everyone else for blowing up like this, but I am sick of reading Frager's
crap. At least, Shawn had the guts to find out info, when some of us just sat here
reading. Like Nancy said, (I think it was Nancy) that we talked and thought about it
but didn't. ADD ya know..
Oh well, thanks for listening.
Kayla....markayla@dpc.net
--
mark...@dpc.net
We DO NOT force our children to take Ritalin. My son is 13 yrs old and he takes
it because he knows it helps him concentrate and stay focused. If he doesn't take
or I forget to give it to him. HE calls me to bring it to him at school.. He feels much
better on it . He doesn't do all the strange things he does do when he doesn't take it.
He is very uncontrolled off of it and very much in control on it. WHAT THE H___
is the big deal.
Sorry, another ranting from an overworked mother who by the way is ADD, FMS,
Hypothyroid, hypertense, IBS, and what ever else you want to think I may
have..hehe
Kayla...
--
ac...@miamisci.org
shu...@woods.uml.edu
>>Would you repost your original article, please?
>>Thanks
>
> Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
> Vitamin-R!
I just finished stomaching that whole diatribe, and I must add my own
opinion that it is the most biased, twisted, uninformed, irresponsible and
ridiculous piece of ignorance I have had the displeasure of reading regarding
ADD in quite some time. It's fifty percent bullshit and fifty percent
irrelevant.
Do us a favor, okay doc? Go learn something.
-stan
Dr. Richard X. Frager
children by arguing about consentual sex with farm animals. Leo, I
would say I am surprised at you, but I'm not!!
No wonder parents across America are waking up and saying, "No" to the
forced drugging of their children! Because the "promoters" of "ritalin"
really have no argument for the Massive-Overdosing of America's
children.
But as soon as you tell the truth about that they will 1) Call you
names; 2) Try and Censor the truth; and last but not least 3) Use the
old LBJ routine and call the messenger a lover of pigs! It's sad, but
it's true. Take a good look at the facts, as many of you have. And
just say "No" to the forced drugging of your children. The life you
save may be your own!
rgar...@xmission.com
But you have clearly NOT told the truth when you posted an 'article'
recently on this newsgroup which was an edited version of work by a
Washington Post reporter. The reporter has been contacted and has
stated that you had NO PERMISSION to revise or add to their work.
How do you expect to have any credibility when you engage in such
practices?
Sir, you have none with me. You should be ashamed.
RG
============================================================
"Be excellent to one another." --Bill
R. A. Garrard rgar...@xmission.com Salt Lake City, Utah
============================================================
John Palmer
: gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
: >So, are you simply trying to imply I misrepresented your recent
: >postings >
: >- Shawn Glisson
(excrement deleted)
So *ARE* you Mark Kemper, or just a brain-twin, similarly determined
to make an ass of himself?
John Palmer
: would say I am surprised at you, but I'm not!!
Unfortunately, you're not suprised for the wrong reason. I think Leo
brought that up as a total non-sequiter, to demonstrate how you use
constant non-sequiters yourself.
: No wonder parents across America are waking up and saying, "No" to the
: forced drugging of their children!
Strange. . . no one's been reporting "forced drugging". I have seen
many people reporting an informed decision to use different medications in
response to ADD.
Because the "promoters" of "ritalin"
: really have no argument for the Massive-Overdosing of America's
: children.
Oh? What massive overdosing of what chemical? Ooops. I'm sorry,
asking for references isn't fair.
: But as soon as you tell the truth about that
How would you know? Truth and you don't seem to be on speaking
terms.
they will 1) Call you
: names;
Calling you names IS a tad redundant, I admit.
:2) Try and Censor the truth;
Ah, yes, the perpetual loser's chant: "YOU'RE CENSORING ME! I can't
spew bullshit when someone else is talking sense!"
Dr. Richard X. Frager
>does not have the ability the inclination to respond.
Not only do I respond to the "cult of ritalin-promoters" but I also
respond to the ridiculous counter-attacks which include 1) name-calling;
2) False accusations and 3) scandalous charges. But that is what I
expected from the people who benefit from the over-diagnosis of ADD!
>>Every drug I use has many many many bad effects. That is why they are not>>handed out willy nilly
>>Frank Krautter MD
That's a nice myth, but America is, per capita, the most medicated and over-prescribed society in the history of the World. Drugs A=
RE handed out very "willy-nilly" without any oversight and with the over-burdened public paying TWICE; once to subsidize the R & D o=
n those drugs, and secondly, to purchase the HIGHEST PRICED medicine in the WORLD; when they buy their prescriptions. And guess who=
benefits from that and who doesn't want the truth to be told. Hint: The major crybabies on this newsgroup! Too bad, the truth is =
and will be told!!
rgar...@xmission.com
>j...@cyber-mall.com (Joe Parsons) wrote:
>
>>does not have the ability the inclination to respond.
>Not only do I respond to the "cult of ritalin-promoters" but I also
>respond to the ridiculous counter-attacks which include 1) name-calling;
>2) False accusations and 3) scandalous charges. But that is what I
>expected from the people who benefit from the over-diagnosis of ADD!
1. Criticism of the massive prescription of Ritalin is valid. I do it
myself.
2. Name calling is not valid. However, you are yourself engaging in
name-calling when you talk about the "cult of ritalin-promoters".
Many of the people you are attacking decided to try medication after
exhausting other methods. Such a blanket attack is unfair.
3. False accusations? These should be answered point by point.
4. Scandalous charges? These should be answered point by point.
What you have _not_ answered, Dr. Frager, is the charge that you
misrepresented an article that was recently posted. You should post
something indicated what part of the article was yours and what was
not. And you need to explain to us--and to the writer of the original
article--why you found it necessary to revise another person's work,
apparently without anyone's consent.
>>>Every drug I use has many many many bad effects. That is why they are not>>handed out willy nilly
>>>Frank Krautter MD
>That's a nice myth, but America is, per capita, the most medicated and over-prescribed society in the history of the World. Drugs A=
>RE handed out very "willy-nilly" without any oversight and with the over-burdened public paying TWICE; once to subsidize the R & D o=
>n those drugs, and secondly, to purchase the HIGHEST PRICED medicine in the WORLD; when they buy their prescriptions. And guess who=
> benefits from that and who doesn't want the truth to be told. Hint: The major crybabies on this newsgroup! Too bad, the truth is =
>and will be told!!
It would serve the public interest if you would post some clear
citations of studies, surveys, etc. which substantiate your
statements. However, be advised that your sources will now be
questioned because of your history of editing other people's work.
BTW, I believe "crybabies" is name-calling. See above. More reason
and less rhetoric, please.
leo meunier
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
> And this is how you support the drugging of millions and millions of
> children by arguing about consentual sex with farm animals. Leo, I
> would say I am surprised at you, but I'm not!!
>
> No wonder parents across America are waking up and saying, "No" to the
> forced drugging of their children! Because the "promoters" of "ritalin"
> really have no argument for the Massive-Overdosing of America's
> children.
>
> But as soon as you tell the truth about that they will 1) Call you
> names; 2) Try and Censor the truth; and last but not least 3) Use the
> old LBJ routine and call the messenger a lover of pigs! It's sad, but
> it's true. Take a good look at the facts, as many of you have. And
> just say "No" to the forced drugging of your children. The life you
> save may be your own!
Frager Frager is this a nickname you picked up in Vietnam. Well if
you knew me better you wouldn't be suprised at all. I'm just tired of
people who don't know squat about my famillies situation thinking they
know best.
We spent 8 years of reseach before we tried medication. We went to
seminars, read books, talked to experts in psychiatry and education. We
tried other methods of behavior modification. My son has had continuos
therapy for the last 10 years with 2 diagnostic hospitilizations. Ritalin
has made a tremendous difference in my sons life and has made all the
other services that much more effective.
I don't force drug my child. I give him the medication he needs to
have a fighting chance to succeed. To not do so would be irrisponsible of
me as a parent. I belive there is a good chance I did save his life by
making this decision. I know we immensly helped his belief that he would
be able to function in this world.
I have read the arguments presented by the leading experts in the field
of ADD. People who have spent their lives trying to help others. You
come in telling people they know not what they are doing. You in your all
enlightened knowledge have the answer.
Lover of pigs wouldn't bother me. You are worst than that. You are a
hatter of people whon do not share your opnion no matter how knowlegable
or hard that decision was to make.
Leo
John Palmer
: ...ass of himself?
: Why do "Ritalin-Promoters" always resort to foul and obscene language?
No, no, no. Look, let's get this straight.
"You are an ass". I've just called you a donkey.
(foul and obscene language follows: hit 'n' or take responsibility for your
own decision to read this)
"You are a shiteating, stallion-dick-slurping, fucker of diseased
prostitutes who was born of cheap whore and thirty pimp-suspects."
*THAT* is foul and obscene language.
: One could almost say that the "Ritalin-promoters" are anti-educational!
Not at all! Witness my willingness to educate you, Mark^h^h^h^hDick.
: Typical though, for these desperate and despondent people.
Desperate? No. Amused? Yes.
: If you need help using a Dictionary - use the "guide!"
What, you can't even look up "ass" and you accuse OTHERS of not
looking in the dictionary? Sheesh.
Dr. Richard X. Frager
Whether or not >we use medication or not is no concern of yours.
--I never said it was. These are "newsgroups" not the "Office of
Interrogation!"
>I am sorry everyone else for blowing up like this, but I am sick of reading
--Wow! I really bet that you let the TELEVISON STATIONS really know how you feel about their "Twisted and non-informative" programm=
ing. Which means, you probably support COMMUNITY-ACCESS radio and televsion. If not, you're argument lacks any credibility! Which=
is probably why you have to medicate yourself in the first place!!
>Oh well, thanks for listening.
--The pleasure is all mine. Unlike a few "extremists" on this newsgroup, I WELCOME responses, and I try to respond to all "reasona=
ble" ones! Thank you again!
JaelleS
>Mr. , Dr. Frager, or who ever you are , You have been found out to be a
>fraud..Why
>don't you just leave us alone and let us be supporting of each other and
our
>families.. I have no use for someone trying to cause trouble here.
Frager's a flame-junkie. He likes being flamed and will only respond to
flames. He doesn't answer legitimate questions.
Tim Oxler
gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
>"Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>Ritalin for Kids : A Bust, Not a Boon/ 2 Million Children Hooked On
>>Vitamin-R!
>< Fallacious and inflammatory article snipped >
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>- Shawn Glisson
Here's a follow up note that rings with potential hypocrisy
Last year The Church of Scientology sued some of its former members
who had posted section of the Scientologist' sacred --& copyrighted--
text on the NG: alt.religion.scientology.
They even sued Netcom for being the provider that the text were posted
from.
And get a load of this. A federal judge in CA ruled that Netcom IS
LIABLE for content its customers post only if it has knowledge of what
the messages say.
The new suit will argue whether they were knowledgable or not. Case
pending.
Tim Oxler
tro...@i1.net
Dr. Richard X. Frager
Why do "Ritalin-Promoters" always resort to foul and obscene language?
One could almost say that the "Ritalin-promoters" are anti-educational!
Typical though, for these desperate and despondent people.
If you need help using a Dictionary - use the "guide!"
shu...@woods.uml.edu
In article <4ln5ht$q...@nadine.teleport.com>, "Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> writes:
> And this is how you support the drugging of millions and millions of
> children by arguing about consentual sex with farm animals. Leo, I
> would say I am surprised at you, but I'm not!!
>
> No wonder parents across America are waking up and saying, "No" to the
> forced drugging of their children! Because the "promoters" of "ritalin"
> really have no argument for the Massive-Overdosing of America's
> children.
Fragger - you son of a bitch - KNOCK IT OFF! You know that what you're
posting is untrue - or at the very least, that your inflammatory attempt at
journalese gives you no credibility whatsoever. You want to debate this point
by point then, sir, I am up to the task and look forward to knocking down your
wall of deception brick by filthy brick.
What is your interest in this non-issue anyway? Why are you so damned
determined to be everyone's conscience and keeper? You say that, perhaps,
children are not adequately equipped to voice their concerns and/or unable to
defend themselves? You think that they are being "manipulated and controlled"
by ignorant, lazy, and malicious parents, teachers, doctors, pharmacists,
counselors, etc.?
You'll be interested to know that it is exactly the likes of you who
do the most harm to people. Children are not the only ones who take medication
for various reasons - and likewise, they are not the only people who benefit
from pharmachological treatment for Attention Deficit Disorder.
And, you know not the severity and intensity with which many
undiagnosed and untreated people suffer - and that ignorance is no excuse for
the venomous quality of your posts. Many peoples lives, adults and children
alike, have literally been turned around at the start of long overdue
remediation.
In fact, my own life might quite literally have been saved for it. I
have no problem bringing that to yours or anyone elses attention - it is not
something about which I am ashamed - but definitely something of a lesson.
You are irresponsible and cruel.
Go away. I will be at every corner waiting if you don't. And I'm not
just refering to this newsgroup.
-stan
D.C. Sessions
Dr. Richard X. Frager wrote of himself:
> Why else would you stoop to such low levels, unless
> that is all you have left to defend yourself with. That would be the
> only logical conclusion!! All your ranting and ravings only show what
> kind of lunatic you really are, and that scares the hell out of people,
> at least that is what they write me. Personally, I just think you are a
> funny "crack-pot" that would say and do anything to discredit somebody.
> The major flaw in that strategy is that you make yourself look bad.
> Typical though.
Dr. Richard X. Frager wrote, in <4l1v7p%24...@nadine.teleport.com>:
> He uses a very old ploy when it comes to defending his weak position.
> Attack the person and not the evidence.
Have you noticed that some people can't seem to stop talking about
themselves? I'm sure that there's something profoundly psychological
D.C. Sessions
Once again, "Dr. Richard X. Frager" writes of himself:
> You better bow out of the ritalin disucssion, since you will not
> divlulge you intense interest in it!!
--
D. C. Sessions
dc.se...@tempe.vlsi.com
John and Susan Hutchins
"Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>mark...@dpc.net wrote:
> I have no use for someone trying to cause trouble here.
>--Then Don't!!
> Whether or not >we use medication or not is no concern of yours.
>--I never said it was. These are "newsgroups" not the "Office of
>Interrogation!"
snip
>>Oh well, thanks for listening.
>--The pleasure is all mine. Unlike a few "extremists" on this newsgroup, I WELCOME responses, and I try to respond to all "reasona=
>ble" ones! Thank you again!
Then respond to this. In what discipline is your "docorate," and from
what institution. BTW don't try blowing this off with your patented
"Fragerfog" (tm) answer, "I don't want the institution to be
harrassed." You've done that in too many other places, Frager, that
dog don't hunt.
Now, go for it. Answer the question, or keep your mouth shut.
John Hutchins
David M. Martin
"Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>No wonder parents across America are waking up and saying, "No" to the
>forced drugging of their children! Because the "promoters" of "ritalin"
>really have no argument for the Massive-Overdosing of America's
>children.
Ray, stop it. The game is over.
We've done our homework. There is no Richard Frager listed anywhere
in the area served by Teleport.com. There are only two living Richard
Fragers in the USA, and neither of them is a doctor.
If you're interested is a serious discussion, please use your real
name as most of us do.
I suggest that we all ignore future posts and message from
rfr...@teleport.com.
-- David Martin
mark...@dpc.net
-- David Martin
--
I totally agree with you. THank you!
Dr. Richard X. Frager
lj...@gte.com (leo meunier) wrote:
>Frager Frager is this a nickname you picked up in Vietnam.
-----Negative, I was an anti-war protester, and still am! Why do you
ask anyway, is it because it doesn't fit a certain racial or social
setreotype that you have about people. That tells me
more about you then me!
I'm just tired of>people who don't know squat about my famillies
situation thinking they>know best.
----Wow! Where did you read that into what I wrote??? That may be a
sign of a reading disorder!
We spent 8 years of reseach before we tried medication.
----So by that you must be implying that ALL families take 8 years
before they put their children on Ritalin. HHHmmmm, as they noisy
negativists would ask me, "Where's your proof!"
To not do so would be irresponsible of>me as a parent.
-----You are 100% correct, sir!
Lover of pigs wouldn't bother me.
-----Yes but watch your diet and try to keep your cholesterol level
in check!
You are a>hater of people whon do not share your opnion no matter how
knowlegable>or hard that decision was to make.
-----On the contrary, I encourage rational discussion, not the
Nazi-esque type that certain people on this newsgroup want.
Unlike the others, I respect ALL opinions, in fact, an intelligent
person listens to everything!! If not, how could we ever LEARN
anything new? Replies encouraged!!
Richard Frager
John Palmer
: >: ...ass of himself?
: >
: look up "ass"
: ---John - I don't care what the others say about you!
: You're all right!!
: P.S. Better seek professional help for your condition-
: it's not getting any better.
Wow. . .self contradiction in the space of what, four lines? Not
bad. Most people require much more verbage to make a fool of themselves.
You are truly a master of your art.
Let's not forget attempted, but incorrect clairvoyance and
anti-soothsaying. Perhaps you will become the world's first mind reading
illiterate!
Greg Alt
KTCOOAOFNB!
>Dr. Richard X. Frager (rfr...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: Why do "Ritalin-Promoters" always resort to foul and obscene language?
Why do fools fall in love?
Greg
Dr. Richard X. Frager
jpa...@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote:
>: ...ass of himself?
>
look up "ass"
---John - I don't care what the others say about you!
You're all right!!
P.S. Better seek professional help for your condition-
it's not getting any better.
Good luck!!
Frank H. Krautter
.teleport.com> <4logp0$2...@news1.infinet.com>
<4lqpr7$d...@nadine.teleport.com>:
Organization: Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
Distribution:
I figured out why my followup posts are going to multiple user groups, if
the sender (Mr Frager in this case) has posted the original message to
multiple groups, your followup will go to all the multiple groups. He is
casting a wide net indeed.
Frank
Frank H. Krautter
.teleport.com> <4logp0$2...@news1.infinet.com>:
<4lqpr7$d...@nadine.teleport.com>:*
Organization: Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
Distribution:
Dr. Richard X. Frager (rfr...@teleport.com) wrote:
: jpa...@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote:
: ...ass of himself?
: Why do "Ritalin-Promoters" always resort to foul and obscene language?
: One could almost say that the "Ritalin-promoters" are anti-educational!
: Typical though, for these desperate and despondent people.
It comes from dealing with intolerable stress at reading irrational
statements. I will never know if you write misinformation deliberately or
are simply a misinformed zealot for the cause. The fact that you do not
answer specific questions makes me think you are deliberately giving out
misinformation, but that is hard to tell, you are obviously intelligent.
Your letters give the impression of someone who is angry to the point of
irrationality. Would you mind filling us in on just why, personally you
are so compelled to make such inflamatory statements such as:
(paraphrased)
Drug companies are pushing the drug
Doctors are pushing the drug
Millions are being harmed with the drug.
I am not asking for a defense of the statements, but why you personally
are so angry.
Frank Krautter MD f...@riker.neoucom.edu
Family Practice Center
Western Reserve Care System (WRCS)
PO Box 240
Youngstown, Ohio 44501
shu...@woods.uml.edu
In article <4lqpr7$d...@nadine.teleport.com>, "Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> writes:
> jpa...@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote:
> ...ass of himself?
>
> Why do "Ritalin-Promoters" always resort to foul and obscene language?
> One could almost say that the "Ritalin-promoters" are anti-educational!
> Typical though, for these desperate and despondent people.
>
Why do right-wing extremists such as yourself always use the word
"always"? Do you like generalizing to the point of invalidation?
Are you so arrogant as to expect to get away with such accusations as
the ones you yourself are spewing? All "Ritalin promoters" as you say, engage
in the use of obsene language. Try again.
And, you accuse people of being anti-educational? I don't even have a
clue what that is supposed to mean. I am very much in favor of education,
the arts, literacy, AND ALL OTHER FORMS OF PROGRESS - for that is what life is
- change, mistakes certainly, but the incidence of mistakes does not make an
open and shut case. By the way - I do not see pharmachology as one of those
mistakes.
Your constant labeling, generalizing, and megaphonic posturing are
getting very tiresome and damned irritating.
And I'm still waiting for you to answer my last post.
-stan
julie_z.
In my family all 4 of us are ADD (2 with H, 2 without).
None of us takes ritalin.
and you still NEED to read this.,...
alt.support.attn-deficit--the FAQ
Welcome to FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS about
alt.support.attn-deficit. It is administered by Joe Parsons
(j...@cyber-mall.com) on a more-or-less regular basis and posted
weekly to alt.support.attn-deficit.
The author disclaims any responsibility for the information
contained in this document, although it was believed accurate as
of the time of posting. It is not to be considered an
authoritative work on the diagnosis of or treatment for attention
deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Permission is hereby granted to republish, repost, email or
reproduce this document by any means, with the express condition
that it be published, posted or transmitted in its entirety, with
no alterations or abridgments whatsoever.
Copyright 1996 by Joe Parsons. All rights reserved.
1) Introduction
2) What is "attention deficit disorder?"
3) What is the purpose of a.s.a-d?
4) Oh, yeah? who says?
5) Who's the moderator on this board?
6) I think you're all just lazy parents and incompetent teachers
who want to drug kids; don't I have a right to express my opinion?
7) I've got a great new non-drug therapy you people should try;
is it okay if I just post a few messages?
8) I think this whole ADD thing is a bunch of baloney! Why are
you all so defensive?
9) What's this stuff about "trolls?"
10) How can I find out more about AD(H)D?
11) Who is Joe Parsons, anyway??
12) Thanks to...
1) Introduction
This short document will introduce you to the informal electronic
gathering of folks we call alt.support.attn-deficit ("a.s.a-d").
It will provide a brief introduction to the collection of symptoms
and behaviors referred to as "attention deficit disorder (ADD)" or
"attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)." It is not
intended as any sort of treatise on diagnosis, treatment or
management of ADD or ADHD, but rather as an introduction to this
support group.
2) What is "attention deficit disorder?"
Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder (ADD, ADHD or AD(H)D)
is a neurological condition whose primary symptoms are
distractibility, impulsiveness and restlessness. The condition is
frequently observed in school-age children as an inability to pay
attention or complete classwork, often accompanied by a
high-energy, ants-in-the-pants demeanor.
In adults, ADD tends to manifest itself as inattentiveness,
absent-mindedness, impulsiveness, lack of follow-through and an
elastic perception of time. These behaviors may have led to poor
performance in school and in the workplace, and low self esteem
and clinical depression frequently travel hand-in-hand with ADD.
3) What is the purpose of a.s.a-d?
This newsgroup was formed by and for people who have been affected
by ADD. This includes people who have been diagnosed with ADD,
people whose spouses have ADD, adults who suspect they may have
it, and parents of AD(H)D children.
The participants come to a.s.a-d to receive and to offer support;
there are discussions about research, diagnosis and treatment,
attitudes toward ADD, coping strategies, occasional expressions of
frustration, outrage or joy, and the occasional venting of
spleens.
It was NOT formed to provide a forum for (nor does it find useful)
articles
* Debating the existence of AD(H)D
* Pontificating about "lazy" parents or teachers
* Debating the "right" or "wrong" of medication
* Selling "alternatives" or "cures."
4) Oh, yeah? who says?
Usenet (and Altnet) operate by consensus. While there are no
"laws" governing the operation of an international entity such as
the Net, there are many established and universally accepted
customs covering what is and is not appropriate.
To learn more about these customs ("netiquette"), go to
news.answers.newusers and read the many articles written to help
newcomers.
5) Who's the moderator on this board?
There is no "moderator" in a.s.a-d. A *newsgroup* such as this
one is NOT a bulletin board service (BBS) like Compuserve or
America Online. While there are some Usenet newsgroups with
moderators, we have seen no substantial need for one here. The
absence of a moderator, however, does not reduce your
responsibility for proper conduct: just as you are expected to
behave in the "real world," there are expectations in
newsgroups--particularly in a.s.a-d.
We hope you'll behave with courtesy, civility and compassion, just
as we are sure you do in the real world, where we can see your
face--and put our hands on you.
6) I think you're all just lazy parents and incompetent teachers
who want to drug kids; don't I have a right to express my opinion?
You have the right to your own opinion. You have the right to
express it, but PLEASE consider the audience you are addressing.
This is a SUPPORT newsgroup, and your desire to debate belongs in
a forum that has been chartered for such discussion. We are here
to help each other, not to argue.
Here's an analogy: let's say you learn about a support group for
people who have attempted suicide. The group meets in your public
library and since the library is a public place, you are allowed
into the meeting. Each time someone in the meeting talks about
how they had attempted suicide, you respond to them by telling
them they are just cowards, looking for an easy way out. They
should just "snap out of it," you say. Would this be against the
law? Probably not. Would it be morally reprehensible? I hope
you know the answer.
Support groups exist to provide a *safe* place for people to deal
with a problem or condition--not to make them an easier target for
derision. Our asking you to behave politely and compassionately
does not comprise censorship.
7) I've got a great new non-drug therapy you people should try;
is it okay if I just post a few messages?
If your first and only appearance in this newsgroup has been to
sell your product, we suspect that this is your only reason for
being here. We are not interested in hearing from you. You can
be assured that most of us who might consider "alternative"
treatments have already done so--ADD people (and parents or
spouses of ADD people) are *very* good at research. None of us is
interested in reading your brochures. Or in debating the nasty
medical establishment. Or in trying to pin down your extravagant
claims. Please go away.
If, on the other hand, you have been here for a while, sharing
YOUR REAL, PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and want to discuss alternatives
you might have discovered, then our attitude might be different.
If we discover that your agenda is really to sell a product,
however, you can expect the climate to turn very chilly.
8) I think this whole ADD thing is a bunch of baloney! Why are
you all so defensive?
Many ADD people have been wrestling with the ignorance of others
all their lives. If you post an article suggesting that ADD is
just a "myth" or an "excuse," you should back up your statements
with solid, documentable facts.
Hint: the following phrases are not considered "facts" or
"proof;"
"It's just common sense."
"Everybody knows."
"I heard about an article that said..."
"A doctor at a leading hospital says..."
On the contrary: those phrases may well cause you to be branded an
idiot.
For extra credit, please refer to the analogy in section (6)
above.
If you feel compelled to debate the existence of AD(H)D, please go
to alt.debate.attn-deficit, where you will find the appropriate
audience for your position.
9) What's this stuff about "trolls?"
A "troll" is an article posted for the sole purpose of provoking a
reaction. Trolls can often be recognized by their subject line,
which may have a provocative title such as "You ADD people are
just a bunch of speed freaks," or "Why are you turning your
innocent children into zombies?" The poster really has nothing
worthwhile to say relative to ADD; he just wants to create a long
thread. The fact that he is hurting vulnerable people means
nothing to him.
The best way to handle such a cretin is *not* to give him the
attention he craves. Answer him by e-mail if you must; that way
you will not encourage him or give him the opportunity to clutter
the newsgroup any more.
10) How can I find out more about AD(H)D?
There's no shortage of resources; if you do a web search on ADD or
ADHD, you'll turn up lots of places to go. There is a non-profit
organization called CH.A.D.D (Children and Adults with A.D.D.)
that has a homepage at http://www.chadd.org. You'll find many
useful links from their page.
(PLEASE NOTE: while many participants in the newsgroup are
members of CH.A.D.D. alt.support.attn-deficit is in NO WAY
affiliated with or supported by CH.A.D.D.)
There are some excellent books on the topic of ADD and its
management. Some of the titles you'll see mentioned are
"Driven to Distraction," by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D.
"You Mean, I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!!" by Peggy Ramundo
and Kate Kelly
"ADD: A Different Perspective," by Thom Hartmann
There are lots more; hang around the newsgroup and you'll hear
about them--or feel free to ask.
11) Who is Joe Parsons, anyway??
Joe Parsons is a writer living and working in the San Francisco
Bay Area. Since his fans at present are primarily people who
don't send him enough money to meet his overhead, he works in
mortgage banking, too. He spends as much time as he can manage
sailing "Good Faith" out of Berkeley, California. One of the
great epiphanies of his life was reading Ned Hallowell's "Driven
to Distraction;" he still thinks it was written about him.
He can be reached at
One other thing you should know about Joe Parsons: He HATES
excessive quoting in Usenet and in email. He thinks quoting an
entire article just to add three words is a clear indication of
cluelessness.
12) Thanks to...
This document could not have been prepared without the
contributions of
John Thompson
Graeme Smith
Cheryl Mathison
Nancy Gleason
Yoav Altman
Jan Thiessen
The author is also indebted to Arthur Byrne, whose FAQ-writing
advice has been invaluable.
He is especially grateful to the many "regulars" in
alt.support.attn-deficit who give so extravagantly of themselves
in reaching out to others.
He has also received some valuable feedback from a small number of
people who say they hate his guts.
Revision History:
3/19/96: Initial publication
====================================================
Dr. R .X. Frager
widde...@widdershins.seanet.com (John and Susan Hutchins) wrote:
>"Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
Answer the question!
I have already done so. And I will keep my promise and not let the
others know what "organization" you belong to! At least one of us has
kept their word -- me!
Dont' worry, I won't tell them about you!!
Dr. R .X. Frager
shu...@woods.uml.edu wrote:
> Frager - you son of a bitch
---Join the club of foul-mouth idiots. Boo to that kind of language!
>You know that what you're>posting is untrue
---Which part?
>wall of deception brick by filthy brick.
---Don't rag on brick-layers!
>You think that they are being "manipulated and controlled"
>by ignorant, lazy, and malicious parents, teachers, doctors,
>pharmacists,>counselors, etc.?
---Huh? You are reading to much into it.
>they are not the only people who benefit
>from pharmachological treatment for Attention Deficit Disorder.
---Again, I never addressed that point. But I agree with you!
> In fact, my own life might quite literally have been saved for it. I
>have no problem bringing that to yours or anyone else's attention -
---Well, yes. Since I never said anything about that, it sounds like
someone is bringing in a bunch of first-hand testimonials that have
nothing to do with what I said! But okay, I respect all your efforts!
>You are irresponsible and cruel.
---Nope. I never resorted to name-calling and using other obscene
language, like the attack-dogs of the "pro"-ritalin forces have done.
> Go away. I will be at every corner waiting if you don't. And I'm not
>just refering to this newsgroup.
>
If I didn't know you were a "crack-pot" I would almost take that as
a threat. But coming from you, it is almost humorous. I refuse to
bow down to your nazi-esque tactics. And I hope others have seen
through your stupid "bullying" shouting, and I know they have!! It shows
you really Do have a problem.
good luck
richard frager
Joe Parsons
On 26 Apr 1996 15:32:45 GMT, "Dr. Richard X. Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>mark...@dpc.net wrote:
> I have no use for someone trying to cause trouble here.
>--Then Don't!!
[snip]
>>Oh well, thanks for listening.
>--The pleasure is all mine. Unlike a few "extremists" on this newsgroup, I WELCOME responses, and I try to respond to all "reasona=
>ble" ones! Thank you again!
Here's another lie--what a hoot!
While it's true that you do welcome responses (that's what trolls
are for), you've not responded even to the most reasonable
queries.
For example, what are *your* credentials, "Doctor?" {*snort*}
Where did your "doctorate" come from?
Oh, and how did you get permission to alter and republish Laura
Stepps' article from the Washington Post?
Your statistics--where did they come from?
The game is up, "Dick;" You've been repeatedly exposed as a
fraud, a coward and a liar.
Maybe you should change your medication.
Joe Parsons
Kevin D. Quitt
What makes you think behaviour modification will "cure" ADD as opposed to
merely masking it?
--
#include <standard_disclaimer.h> http://emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov/
_
Kevin D Quitt USA 91351-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
Walter Bushell
Has anyone heard of a child being medicated for being too quiet or not
self assertive enough? Surely the pathology can be a great on this
side.
--
Save Humanity!.....................Win valuable prizes!
See my home page at http://www.wp.com/walterb <pr...@panix.com>
Yoav S. Altman
In article <4m1h4l$i...@nadine.teleport.com>,
"Dr. R .X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
> I never resorted to name-calling
> If I didn't know you were a "crack-pot"
This guy's better than Dan Quayle!!
-yoav
Yoav S. Altman
JaelleS
In article <4m02s2$1...@nadine.teleport.com>, "Dr. R .X. Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> writes:
>Answer the question!
>
>I have already done so. And I will keep my promise and not let the
>others know what "organization" you belong to! At least one of us has
>kept their word -- me!
>
>
I haven't seen you answer any questions--definitely none of mine. You are
obviously a fraud and a troller.
Shawn Glisson
"Dr. R .X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>widde...@widdershins.seanet.com (John and Susan Hutchins) wrote:
>>"Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>Answer the question!
>I have already done so. And I will keep my promise and not let the
>others know what "organization" you belong to! At least one of us has
>kept their word -- me!
Dr. Dick,
Why do persist in this forum when you have nothing to say? You have
never answered a question of substance. You have yet to answer my
questions posed several weeks ago:
>S: Where does this "less than 1 percent"
>S: figure come from? Care to cite the scientific basis for this figure?
or
>S: What? Who's words are these being spoken? Are these the words of
>S: Laura Sessions Stepp for the LA Times-Washington Post Service or from
>S: Richard Frager for the Amalgamated Press.
Ok, this question has been partially answered by Laura Sessions Stepp:
" the article posted to a Usenet forum by Richard Frager, "Ritalin for
Kids..." DOES NOT accurately reflect the story I wrote and should not
go out attributed to me or to The Washington Post. Frager included
several paragraphs of his own in the story, and modified my phrasing
to reflect his own bias."Laura Sessions Stepp, Staff Writer, The
Washington Post.
>S: What is the Amalgamated Press?
and
>S: What is the scientific basis for Dr. Parker's conclusions and what
>S: were Dr. Parker's credentials to judge ADD pathology?
Based on our familiarity with other postings of yours, it would now
seem likely that Dr. Parker is your own invention refelcting your own
views.
And as others have asked, what are your credentials to make these
scientific and medical conclusions? Do you have any medical training
whatsoever?
While speaking about myself, Dr. Dick (Richard Frager) asserted:
>And he still tries to discredit me (with no success I might add!) by
>posting something he claims I wrote, but I do not care because I stand
>100% behind my original post.
Ok, lets see you stand behind it! Are you prepared to argue the
facts? Let's see you actually back something up with more than a
personal attack on someone.
- Shawn Glisson
Gli...@atlanta.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS: Dr. Dick, Let me take a guess here. Is Dr. Strangelove among
your favorite films? Are you seeking to preserve your "precious
bodily fluids" by fighting the evil pesticide and pharmaceutical
companies of the world, such as Ciba-Geigy?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
leo meunier
In article <4m02s2$1...@nadine.teleport.com>, "Dr. R .X. Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
> widde...@widdershins.seanet.com (John and Susan Hutchins) wrote:
> >"Dr. Richard X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >
> Answer the question!
>
> I have already done so. And I will keep my promise and not let the
> others know what "organization" you belong to! At least one of us has
> kept their word -- me!
>
> Dont' worry, I won't tell them about you!!
Good one! You don't tell us what they belong to but imply that they
would be nervous that you would. What is it communist, anarchist,
terrorist, or something really bad like CHADD. Or maybe they even work as
chemist.
Then you get noble points for keeping your word.
Leo
Dr. R .X. Frager
j...@cyber-mall.com (Joe Parsons) wrote:
>Your statistics--where did they come from?
>
We've been through that 1 million times. What Exactly are you referring
to?
The game is up, JoeY You've been repeatedly exposed as a
fraud, a coward and a liar, and a bully
Maybe you should TRIPLE your medication.
Take care!
Dr. RXF
Dr. R .X. Frager
gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
>Ok, lets see you stand behind it! Are you prepared to argue the
>facts? Let's see you actually back something up with more than a
>personal attack on someone.
I would love to, but your mind is already made up (see your nonsense
below) so it is a waste of time until I can find someone who isn't
brainwashed that I can hold a reasonable discussion with. Until then,
I wonder why you have such a vehement hatred of ANY view that is not
in total agreement with yours? I do not have to make "wise-crack"
comments like you and the other promoters of massive over-dosing
of America's school-age children on "Ritalin."
You know Shawn, over one-half of the people who look at this newsgroup
do so on an occasional basis. And all your snide remarks are not
helping your case at all. Although I don't mind them since I have
received many e-mails to offer support. But continue to act like a
lunatic, I really don't mind.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>PS: Dr. Dick, Let me take a guess here. Is Dr. Strangelove among
>your favorite films? Are you seeking to preserve your "precious
>bodily fluids" by fighting the evil pesticide and pharmaceutical
>companies of the world, such as Ciba-Geigy?
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
Like I said, keep making those goofy remarks if you want. And also,
keep using obscene language, referring to relations with animals, using
desperate comments, threats and other tactics, if they make you feel
better. Good luck, Shawn! I do not have to make names of anybody
either. I will let your "side" act like children, although I have a
feeling, most of them are!!
mark...@dpc.net
Mr. Frager,
We have not been using rude and obnoxious language, I do beleive that I have read
some of your posts with obnoxious language.
I would like to see your reports and official data on the over medicating of our
children. I want to see the documented proof that it is being done. Until we can see
answers to our questions we are not going to give what you think the time of day.
Medicating our children for ADD is no different than medicating them for diabetes,
or any other condition.
Get a life here.
--
Kayla.......:)......it's Spring...
yes....my allergies are back!!!
Joel D. Roalkvam
pr...@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote:
>Has anyone heard of a child being medicated for being too quiet or not
>self assertive enough? Surely the pathology can be a great on this
>side.
>--
Too quiet or not assertive enough for what? They are all individuals;
all different. Celebrate the differences.
Joel D. Roalkvam
jroa...@daka.com
shu...@woods.uml.edu
> Like I said, keep making those goofy remarks if you want. And also,
> keep using obscene language, referring to relations with animals, using
> desperate comments, threats and other tactics, if they make you feel
> better. Good luck, Shawn! I do not have to make names of anybody
> either. I will let your "side" act like children, although I have a
> feeling, most of them are!!
Please check your email, Mr. Frager. There is an opportunity if you
will at least consider listening. I cite the above as an example of the
counter-productive type of post.
Yes, I ackowledge my own guilt in that regard. I promise, here on out,
to try to be civil and objective. I usually do try - but I also, on occasion
yield to the temptation to "fight fire with fire". If that seems like an
unfair accusation - I am sorry - please feel free to tell me politely.
But, as I said in my email - I do *not* like being taken for a sucker.
Will my extended hand be bitten? I sincerely hope not. But, this group is
worth that risk. I would love to see a return to the spirit of support in
a.s.a-d that has comforted me in the past, and which inevitably brings me back.
-stan
>
>
MSProbert
In article <4m6s0d$p...@nadine.teleport.com>, "Dr. R .X. Frager"
<rfr...@teleport.com> writes:
>>Your statistics--where did they come from?
>>
>We've been through that 1 million times. What Exactly are you referring
>to?
Go back to your original post and select any fact, and provide
documentation. Of course, your continued failure to do so marks you
clearly as an intellectual coward.
And, please, continue to stand behind everything you post. That is called
enfilade and makes some things easier.
Mark S. Probert
Merrick, New York
j...@mnsinc.com
"Dr. R .X. Frager" <rfr...@teleport.com> wrote:
>j...@cyber-mall.com (Joe Parsons) wrote:
>
>>Your statistics--where did they come from?
>>
>We've been through that 1 million times. What Exactly are you referring
>to?
>
>
>
>fraud, a coward and a liar, and a bully
>
>Maybe you should TRIPLE your medication.
>
>Take care!
>
>Dr. RXF
Say, uhh, I just noticed that the "stuff" you have entered for the
"Organization" line in your posts keeps changing. A little trouble
deciding where you post from, perhaps?
j...@mnsinc.com
>Like I said, keep making those goofy remarks if you want. And also,
Speaking of goofy, anyone that posts with an organization name of
"Radical Ufologists [RU]" certainly has my vote, although what you
currently have, "Systems Analysis Synthesis", sounds a bit more
legitimate, if not a bit too redundant. {Did anyone else notice this
about the organization name on Mr. Frager's headers?}
Frank H. Krautter
.teleport.com> <N.042496....@modem4.dpc.net>
<4lqqat$d...@nadine.teleport.com> <4lrkvc$7...@kaleka.seanet.com> <4m02s2$1...@nadine.teleport.com> <4m538a$3...@nntp.atlanta.com> <4m6sh5$p...@nadine.teleport.com>:
Organization: Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
Distribution:
Dr. R .X. Frager (rfr...@teleport.com) wrote:
My dear Dr Frager, I am glad to see you did not flee the field, but you
still are avoiding the important questions. Why do you even bother
responding to the insults, and then do nothing to strenghen your own
position. You even respond to insults written in earlier letters, over and
over again, but never respond to the key questions.
: gli...@atlanta.com (Shawn Glisson) wrote:
: >Ok, lets see you stand behind it! Are you prepared to argue the
: >facts? Let's see you actually back something up with more than a
: >personal attack on someone.
: I would love to, but your mind is already made up (see your nonsense
: below) so it is a waste of time until I can find someone who isn't
: brainwashed that I can hold a reasonable discussion with. Until then,
: I wonder why you have such a vehement hatred of ANY view that is not
: in total agreement with yours?
On the contrary, I see people totally frustrated with your inability to
engage meaningful dialogue.
<snip>
: Like I said, keep making those goofy remarks if you want. And also,
: keep using obscene language, referring to relations with animals, using
: desperate comments, threats and other tactics, if they make you feel
: better. Good luck, Shawn! I do not have to make names of anybody
: either. I will let your "side" act like children, although I have a
: feeling, most of them are!!
Dr Frager, there was no obscene language in her letter, and no reference
to animals. You give every indication you are having trouble keeping your
thoughts ordered. I hope it isn't so...
Frank