Did Tolkien's Elves have pointy ears? :)
Nazgul
=========================================
Naz...@onramp.net
I can reduce you if i want! i can devour!
=========================================
BEN H ROSE
>From: ty...@onramp.net (Nazgul)
>Subject: Did Tolkien's Elves have pointy ears? :)
>Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 02:38:06 GMT
I can't recall (sorry, been years since I read the books) Tolkien ever
describing the shape of his Elves' ears, but I personally believe they did
NOT. His Elves are far from the normal fairy elves, and giving them pointed
ears would be demeaning them, IMHO. Tolkien went against tradition when he
made the plural of Dwarf into Dwarves rather than Dwarfs, so why not deprive
his Elves of pointy ears?
B. Rose (Daeruin)
Steven Pedery
>
>I can't recall (sorry, been years since I read the books) Tolkien ever
>describing the shape of his Elves' ears, but I personally believe they
did
>NOT. His Elves are far from the normal fairy elves, and giving them
pointed
>ears would be demeaning them, IMHO. Tolkien went against tradition
when he
>made the plural of Dwarf into Dwarves rather than Dwarfs, so why not
deprive
>his Elves of pointy ears?
>
>B. Rose (Daeruin)
Actually, he did give them pointy ears, but not the fairy elf sort.
From my recolections of the LOTR, Hobbit, Silmarilion and others (and
role playing games) they are described as being:
Exceptionally tall (depending on their ethnicity, males breaking down
as -Sylvan averaging like 6'4", Sindar 6'7" and Noldor 6"10.)
Very slender
Very angular features, with uptruned eyes, eyebrows, and slightly
pointed ears (but no big fairy-like satalite dishes.)
Skin color varied, Sylvan and Sindar being average to dark skinned,
Noldor being very pale.
Hair color depended on ethnicity...Sylvan were blond or brown, Sindar
Brown, Noldor black or blonde.
Hope that helps.
mazrim
Chris Nyborg
Re: Did Tolkien's Elves have pointy ears? :)
There are no references to pointed ears (at least I've never seen
any such reference), and since Tolkien was quite specific in his
descriptions, I doubt that he meant that the Elves had pointed
ears.
Chris Nyborg
--
"What good are brains to a man? They only unsettle him."
P.G. Wodehouse, in "The Adventures of Sally"
COX CHRISTOPHER L
>In article <4jq414$s...@news.onramp.net> ty...@onramp.net (Nazgul) writes:
>>From: ty...@onramp.net (Nazgul)
>>Subject: Did Tolkien's Elves have pointy ears? :)
>>Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 02:38:06 GMT
>describing the shape of his Elves' ears, but I personally believe they did
>NOT. His Elves are far from the normal fairy elves, and giving them pointed
>ears would be demeaning them, IMHO. Tolkien went against tradition when he
>made the plural of Dwarf into Dwarves rather than Dwarfs, so why not deprive
>his Elves of pointy ears?
Say, isn't this in the FAQ yet? I checked out LFAQ recently, but I haven't
checked out FAQ recently.
Anyway, I recall this question being debated at least two other times on
either this or possibly some other Tolkien group. In short the answer is
that he never said anything about their ears in the texts, but in his
letters he said one that his elves did have pointed ears and in fact
hobbits even have slightly pointed ears. However, I don't believe it was
intended to be the distinguishing feature between elves and humans, but
rather a minor difference. In my mind they don't have very pointed ears,
and I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't mind too much.
Michael Martinez
Or, if you have a copy of THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKIEN, you can look up the
answer yourself (but I don't know which letter specifically deals with the
issue).
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Carl F. Hostetter
"Quendian [i.e. Elvish] ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than
[?human]." (_The Lost Road_, p. 368 s.v. LAS1-). There is a further
statement (in _Letters_, I believe?) to the effect that Hobbit ears were
only slightly pointed and Elvish in appearance.
--
|===================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter Aelf...@erols.com |
| |
| ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
| Ars longa, vita brevis. |
| The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
| "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
| such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
|===================================================================|
Ninni M. Pettersson
Pedery wrote:
> Actually, he did give them pointy ears, but not the fairy elf sort.
> From my recolections of the LOTR, Hobbit, Silmarilion and others (and
> role playing games) they are described as being:
>
> Exceptionally tall (depending on their ethnicity, males breaking down
> as -Sylvan averaging like 6'4", Sindar 6'7" and Noldor 6"10.)
> Very slender
> Very angular features, with uptruned eyes, eyebrows, and slightly
> pointed ears (but no big fairy-like satalite dishes.)
> Skin color varied, Sylvan and Sindar being average to dark skinned,
> Noldor being very pale.
> Hair color depended on ethnicity...Sylvan were blond or brown, Sindar
> Brown, Noldor black or blonde.
I'm sorry but I think you've got most of this from role-playing games, not
from Tolkien himself:
Tallness: Tolkien states that the Noldor were "tall" (RotK, Appendix F) but
Cirdan (a Sinda) is also said to be "very tall" (RotK, 'The Grey Havens') and
in another place "all the Eldar of the Elder Days" are said to be "very tall"
but that in general the Teleri are "somewhat less in build and stature than
the Noldor" (UT, 'Disaster of the Gladden fields') but IIRC the only exact
measure is a statement (in the same passage in UT) that Galadriel "the
tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell" is supposed to be
about six feet four inches. And nowhere is it stated that Sylvan Elves as a
group are shorter than Sindar (the Sylvan Elves' origin is complex - they are
sometimes said to be Teleri, but they could also be Noldor).
Slenderness: I can't remember Tolkien ever saying that the Elves are
slenderer than Mortals.
Features: The angular features and upturned eyes is a product of later
artists and writers fantasy and is not supported by anything Tolkien himself
wrote. The slightly pointed ears however are confirmed by the entry LAS1- in
The Etymologies (LR).
Skin colour: The Noldor are said to be "fair of skin" (RotK, Appendix F),
that Sindar and Sylvan therefor should be 'average to dark skinned' is pure
conjecture.
Hair: Vanyar have golden hair (e.g. UT 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn'),
Noldor have dark (e.g. RotK, Appendix F) and the golden hair in Finarfin's
house comes from his mother Indis of the Vanyar. That the Sindar and Silvan
are blond or brown are nowhere stated.
I think that in this context one should remember what Christopher Tolkien
writes in The Book of Lost Tales 2: "Ultimately, of course, the Elves shed
all associations and qualities that would be now commonly considered
'fairylike'. . . Long afterwards my father would write, in a wrathful comment
on a 'pretty' or 'ladylike' pictorial rendering of Legolas: 'He was tall as
young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and
shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies,
so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or
through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.'"
Vidumavi
Martijn Bouckaert
> never seen
> any such reference), and since Tolkien was quite
> specific in his
> descriptions, I doubt that he meant that the Elves had
> pointed
> ears.
try the LFAQ
Michael Martinez
maz...@ix.netcom.com(Steven Pedery ) wrote:
>Actually, he did give them pointy ears, but not the fairy elf sort.
>From my recolections of the LOTR, Hobbit, Silmarilion and others (and
>role playing games) they are described as being:
>
>Exceptionally tall (depending on their ethnicity, males breaking down
> as -Sylvan averaging like 6'4", Sindar 6'7" and Noldor 6"10.)
Tolkien used the spelling "Silvan" instead of "Sylvan". The two words do not
mean the same thing, although there is an obvious bit of play at work in his
construction.
>Very slender
>Very angular features, with uptruned eyes, eyebrows, and slightly
> pointed ears (but no big fairy-like satalite dishes.)
Never once did Tolkien put a pointed ear on one of his Elves. Certainly not
in THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, or THE SILMARILLION. In THE LETTERS OF
JRR TOLKIEN there is one letter where he describes an Elvish ear as being more
leaf-shaped than a human's. See the FAQs (this is probably in the LessFAQ).
Nor did he ever describe their features as being "very angular, with upturned
eyes". This is just fluff added by RPG companies.
>Skin color varied, Sylvan and Sindar being average to dark skinned,
> Noldor being very pale.
The Elves were all fair-skinned. The Noldor and Sindar generally had dark
hair, although some of the Sindar had grey or silver hair. The Vanyar had
golden hair. After the kindreds mingled, gold hair appeared among the Noldor,
and possibly among the Sindar.
Robert Shirley
I believe there is a picture that Tolkien sketched of an Elf
holding a spear against a Dragon - the Elf had pointy ears!
BThompson
>Yes, the Elves' ears were pointed. Cf. the statement in _Etymologies_ that
>"Quendian [i.e. Elvish] ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than
>[?human]." (_The Lost Road_, p. 368 s.v. LAS1-). There is a further
>statement (in _Letters_, I believe?) to the effect that Hobbit ears were
>only slightly pointed and Elvish in appearance.
>
In Letter No. 27 (p. 35, 'Letters of JRRT'; HMCo hdbk), JRRT wrote about
the physical appearance of hobbits (and, indirectly, Elven ears) thusly:
"I picture a fairly human figure,... A round, jovial face; ears only
slightly pointed and 'elvish'."
Regards,
Bill
Michael Martinez
>I believe there is a picture that Tolkien sketched of an Elf
>holding a spear against a Dragon - the Elf had pointy ears!
There is more than one pointy-eared elf picture by Tolkien. But though he
could change his mind on this point (pun intended), he could not change his
artwork.
Richard Wang
Michael Martinez <mma...@basis.com> wrote:
>Never once did Tolkien put a pointed ear on one of his Elves. Certainly not
>in THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, or THE SILMARILLION. In THE LETTERS OF
>JRR TOLKIEN there is one letter where he describes an Elvish ear as being more
>leaf-shaped than a human's. See the FAQs (this is probably in the LessFAQ).
He never referred to Elves as being pointy-eared, true, but one breed of
hobbits, I believe the Fallohides, was mentioned as being more
Elvish-looking than the other two because its members had slightly pointed
ears.
--
Richard Wang rw...@fas.harvard.edu
"In all my experience, I have never been wrong."--Ted Floyd
Carl F. Hostetter
<cny...@telepost.no> wrote:
> There are no references to pointed ears (at least I've never seen
> any such reference)
Yes there are, I posted two clear references just a few days ago in this
thread (one in _The Lost Road_, one in _Letters_). The Elves did indeed
have "pointy ears".
Michael Martinez
rw...@scunix4.HARVARD.EDU (Richard Wang) wrote:
>In article <4k2geh$1...@sloth.swcp.com>,
>Michael Martinez <mma...@basis.com> wrote:
>
>>Never once did Tolkien put a pointed ear on one of his Elves. Certainly not
>>in THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, or THE SILMARILLION. In THE LETTERS
OF
>>JRR TOLKIEN there is one letter where he describes an Elvish ear as being
more
>>leaf-shaped than a human's. See the FAQs (this is probably in the LessFAQ).
>
>He never referred to Elves as being pointy-eared, true, but one breed of
>hobbits, I believe the Fallohides, was mentioned as being more
>Elvish-looking than the other two because its members had slightly pointed
>ears.
Tolkien said the Fallohides were closer to the Elves than other hobbits in the
Prologue, but he did not make this comparison. On the other hand, as has been
pointed out by others, in LETTERS he states that hobbits in general were
somewhat Elvish in appearance. However, the pointed ears were not there. In
both LETTERS and "The Etymologies" (I think) Tolkien refers to the more
leaf-like shape of Elvish ears (in comparison to human ears).
There were obviously physical differences between Elves and Men, because
someone like Legolas could look at Prince Imrahil and know immediately that he
was a man with Elvish blood, but Tolkien was not very consistent on these
differences. For instance, Cirdan has a beard, and yet Tolkien said that
Elves (and the House of Dol Amroth) were beardless.
The "more leaf-shaped" ears of the Elves would be another clue. Their eyes
also seemed to be different, but it's not really clear how, unless they really
glowed (as some of the texts imply).
Michael Martinez
><cny...@telepost.no> wrote:
>
>> There are no references to pointed ears (at least I've never seen
>> any such reference)
>
>Yes there are, I posted two clear references just a few days ago in this
>thread (one in _The Lost Road_, one in _Letters_). The Elves did indeed
>have "pointy ears".
"Leafy-shaped" is more accurate than "pointy". The pointedness of the ears is
only one aspect of the shape he described (and he does not seem to have
favored the narrow-tip point most people do).
COX CHRISTOPHER L
>There were obviously physical differences between Elves and Men, because
>someone like Legolas could look at Prince Imrahil and know immediately that he
>was a man with Elvish blood, but Tolkien was not very consistent on these
>differences. For instance, Cirdan has a beard, and yet Tolkien said that
>Elves (and the House of Dol Amroth) were beardless.
Yes, but Cirdan was much older than any other elf in Middle-Earth during
the Third Age, or for that matter older than any other el ever described.
In him is demonstrated the fact that elves do age, just very, very slowly.
Maybe elves can't grow beards until they hit 6000 or so.
BThompson
>In article <Aelfwine-080...@macdavis.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
> Aelf...@erols.com (Carl F. Hostetter) wrote:
>>In article <4ju7dt$d...@nms.telepost.no>, Chris Nyborg
>><cny...@telepost.no> wrote:
>>
>>> There are no references to pointed ears (at least I've never seen
>>> any such reference)
>>
>>Yes there are, I posted two clear references just a few days ago in this
>>thread (one in _The Lost Road_, one in _Letters_). The Elves did indeed
>>have "pointy ears".
>
>"Leafy-shaped" is more accurate than "pointy". The pointedness of the ears is
> only one aspect of the shape he described (and he does not seem to have
>favored the narrow-tip point most people do).
>
I don't know why "leafy-shaped" should be more accurate than "pointy"
given that _both_ were used in the quote from LR (p. 368), "...were more
pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]", and "pointed" _alone_ was
referred to in the Letters quote describing hobbits, "...ears only
slightly pointed and 'elvish'.". Hence, the "pointy" attribute was
alluded to in _both_ quotes, whereas the "leafy-shaped" attribute was
only used in one. Of course, we don't know _how_ pointed, but apparently
Elvish ears were pointed enough to be described as such.
Live long and prosper,
Bill
:-)
Michael Martinez
I agree that Cirdan was probably the oldest Elf in Middle-earth at the end of
the First Age, but there is no support I am aware of for saying he was the
eldest Elf, if that's what you mean.
However, Tolkien stated that Elves were beardless (see UNFINISHED TALES, the
discussion of the House of Dol Amroth, in "The History Of Galadriel And
Celeborn And...."). Cirdan appears to be an oversight on Tolkien's part (or
he changed his mind about Elves at some later time).
Michael Martinez
BThompson <will...@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
>I don't know why "leafy-shaped" should be more accurate than "pointy"
>given that _both_ were used in the quote from LR (p. 368), "...were more
>pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]", and "pointed" _alone_ was
>referred to in the Letters quote describing hobbits, "...ears only
>slightly pointed and 'elvish'.". Hence, the "pointy" attribute was
>alluded to in _both_ quotes, whereas the "leafy-shaped" attribute was
>only used in one. Of course, we don't know _how_ pointed, but apparently
>Elvish ears were pointed enough to be described as such.
When people say (or ask if) Tolkien's Elves had pointed ears, what shape is
implied (and inferred)? Most of the renderings I've seen of Tolkien's Elves
by other artists don't have any leaf-like ears at all (of course, Tolkien
himself put a few non-leafy points out that).
Also, some human ears are pointed (and I mean *pointed*). Tolkien's comments
seem to take this fact into consideration. Perhaps he should have allowed for
some variation among Elven ears (or maybe he imagined it but never wrote it
down).
COX CHRISTOPHER L
>>Yes, but Cirdan was much older than any other elf in Middle-Earth during
>>the Third Age, or for that matter older than any other el ever described.
>>In him is demonstrated the fact that elves do age, just very, very slowly.
>>Maybe elves can't grow beards until they hit 6000 or so.
>I agree that Cirdan was probably the oldest Elf in Middle-earth at the end of
>the First Age, but there is no support I am aware of for saying he was the
>eldest Elf, if that's what you mean.
My impression is that Cirdan was one of the original elves who rose
from sleep beside Cuivienen. If anyone has any definite evidence
one way or the other concerning this, I'd be curious to hear it. I know
of no solid evidence, but he is given no lineage (that I know of) and
the fact that early on he was a high ranking lord of the Teleri would
seem to suggest he was around from the start. If this is true then he
is much older than any elf that can be definitely aged at a point where
they were actually present in the text. Presumably Ingwe is still
the high king and alive and well, but for all we know he too had a beard
by the third age.
Really, though, my theory wasn't meant to be entirely serious.
One of the things I love about Tolkien is that on first reading
there is so much to take in that one wonders if it all ties together.
Then further readings start to reveal the larger structure and everything
starts to fit together amazingly. But then when you go yet further,
there are a lot of mysteries and loose ends, things that don't quite
fit in--and in my opinion they make the whole universe even better.
I would classify Cirdan's beard as one of these.
BThompson
>In article <4kf25t$3k...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
> BThompson <will...@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
<grin> I can't help but smile at the fact that I am discussing
the...uhh...finer points of the physical structure of Elven ears.
>>I don't know why "leafy-shaped" should be more accurate than "pointy"
>>given that _both_ were used in the quote from LR (p. 368), "...were more
>>pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]", and "pointed" _alone_ was
>>referred to in the Letters quote describing hobbits, "...ears only
>>slightly pointed and 'elvish'.". Hence, the "pointy" attribute was
>>alluded to in _both_ quotes, whereas the "leafy-shaped" attribute was
>>only used in one. Of course, we don't know _how_ pointed, but apparently
>>Elvish ears were pointed enough to be described as such.
>
>When people say (or ask if) Tolkien's Elves had pointed ears, what shape is
>implied (and inferred)?
Well, "pointed" refers to something tapered or narrowed to a point, which
at the very least implies an ear wider in the middle than at the the very
top. However, exactly what particular form "leaf-shaped" refers to is
debatable. It all depends on what JRRT felt a generic leaf looked like.
>Most of the renderings I've seen of Tolkien's Elves
>by other artists don't have any leaf-like ears at all (of course, Tolkien
>himself put a few non-leafy points out that).
Note that Quendian ears were described as _more_ leaf-shaped, and hence,
were not necessarily perfectly leaf-shaped (whatever that is). Again,
"leaf-shaped" is dependent on JRRT's perception of a generic leaf. And,
of course, other artists' interpretations of JRRT's characters are just
that - _their interpretations_. My personal "favorite" is some artist's
rendition of Gollum with dark skin, a face like some kind of satanic
demon and a nose shaped like a long, bent carrot (I think it's on the
cover of the latest BB edition of 'The Hobbit'). :-)
>
>Also, some human ears are pointed (and I mean *pointed*).
I don't know any Vulcans, personally. :-)
> Tolkien's comments
>seem to take this fact into consideration. Perhaps he should have allowed for
>some variation among Elven ears (or maybe he imagined it but never wrote it
>down).
I've only based my statements on what JRRT wrote, although I suppose I
should go through some of his pictures of Elves again. In any event, I
posted earlier because I questioned (and still do) your statement that
"leafy-shaped" was a more accurate description of Elven ears than
"pointed". From JRRT's comments, we know that Elves had ears that were
pointed enough to be easily distinguishable from those of Humans
(including Hobbits). I think "leaf-shaped", however, is a more ambiguous
term because I don't think there is one universally-accepted shape for a
generic leaf. I guess we could look through JRRT's drawings of leaves to
see if they have a consistent shape. If I'm motivated, maybe I'll take a
quick look through them later.
Regards,
Bill
William J Purosky
: I've only based my statements on what JRRT wrote, although I suppose I
: posted earlier because I questioned (and still do) your statement that
: "leafy-shaped" was a more accurate description of Elven ears than
: "pointed". From JRRT's comments, we know that Elves had ears that were
: pointed enough to be easily distinguishable from those of Humans
: (including Hobbits). I think "leaf-shaped", however, is a more ambiguous
: term because I don't think there is one universally-accepted shape for a
: generic leaf. I guess we could look through JRRT's drawings of leaves to
: see if they have a consistent shape. If I'm motivated, maybe I'll take a
: quick look through them later.
Luckily Tolkien didn't come from Canada or his elves would have very strange
shaped ears. :{)}
Checkerboard Man
Michael Martinez
BThompson <will...@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
[a nice article I don't have time to respond to in detail]
I have no better idea of what Tolkien intended than anyone else, so far as I
know.
I suspect he had something like this in mind (view in a fixed font):
**
* *
* *
* *
* *
**
Note that the "point" here is more an aspect of my attempt to render this in
an ASCII format than my intention to convey my idea. Most of the elf-ears I
see in modern Fantasy art look like:
*
* *
* *
* *
* *
This hardly makes a definitive statement, I realize, but what I'm trying to
show is that the "leafiness" doesn't have to be like a candle-flame drawing.
Think of the elf-ears in the movie "Legend". They looked almost like donkey
ears. I suspect Tolkien would have choked on his pipe had he seen them.
I can't believe I jumped into this discussion....
Michael Martinez
>from sleep beside Cuivienen. If anyone has any definite evidence
>one way or the other concerning this, I'd be curious to hear it.
As would I.
>I know of no solid evidence, but he is given no lineage (that I know of) and
>the fact that early on he was a high ranking lord of the Teleri would
>seem to suggest he was around from the start.
He is said in some later notes to be related to Elwe, but as of the writing of
THE WAR OF THE JEWELS, Christopher Tolkien had not found anything which
explained this relationship.
The evidence suggests that Cirdan was either a fairly old Elf by the time he
became lord of the Falathrim, or that he was born into a high family.
Carl F. Hostetter
Martinez) wrote:
> In article <Aelfwine-080...@macdavis.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
> Aelf...@erols.com (Carl F. Hostetter) wrote:
>
> >Yes there are, I posted two clear references just a few days ago in this
> >thread (one in _The Lost Road_, one in _Letters_). The Elves did indeed
> >have "pointy ears".
>
> "Leafy-shaped" is more accurate than "pointy". The pointedness of the
ears is
> only one aspect of the shape he described
I used the term "pointy ears" because that's the phrase that the original
poster used; that's why it's in quotes in my post.
>(and he does not seem to have favored the narrow-tip point most people
>do).
Oh? On the basis of what evidence do you claim this? Tolkien described the
ears as "pointed and leaf-shaped". Do you think he meant, say, maple
leaves? :)
|===================================================================|
| Carl F. Hostetter Aelf...@erols.com |
|===================================================================|
Michael Martinez
Carl.F.Ho...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter) wrote:
>>(and he does not seem to have favored the narrow-tip point most people
>>do).
>
>Oh? On the basis of what evidence do you claim this? Tolkien described the
>ears as "pointed and leaf-shaped". Do you think he meant, say, maple
>leaves? :)
"more pointed and leaf-shaped" is the way I recall the passage. Perhaps he
meant, say, elephant ears (a name for an actual large leafed plant) <G>.