WTC Memorial
D.E. and D.K. Cobb
arrays of searchlights to beam two columns of light, with
the same footprint as the WTC, straight up into space.
Something like 600,000 watts of light pollution.
Fortunately, the lights are planned to be shut off after 32
days. Why do so many folks like lights shining into the
night sky? My condolences to any of you that observe within
50 miles of NYC.
Danny Cobb
Al
yours...just what we need, more lights!
Fortunately, the lights will be turned off each evening by 11 PM. Living
only 20 miles from the city, I understand the need for this memorial. I'm
also happy that the light show will not be permanent.
Al
"D.E. and D.K. Cobb" <dnd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C8B620B...@bellsouth.net...
Malcolm Stewart
it doesn't stop at 11pm. At least it's saved me from spending lots of cash on a
super telescope...
However, my condolences to the bereaved at the WTC.
--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK
Al <aoccB...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7jKi8.3463$Ex5.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Smallboat
this came to be and what was going on down in this area.
Short summary is this. The idea was publicly proposed right after 9/11,
and people did not have the sense to let the idea go. The light was to
be used to replicate the Towers. The website talked of the need to
develop the technology to implement the proposal. Apparently they could
not duplicate the Towers. It was than marketed as "two beams" to mark
the event. Up to last week they talked of the lights being on from 11 AM
to 11 PM.
Why light? In the words of one of the lighting designers: "The idea of
light in our culture and in our history equals life, equals spirit,
equals love and most importantly equals regeneration," said lighting
designer Paul Marantz, who helped translate the concept into a plan.
(Full article at
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/newyork/ny-nymem072614722mar07.story)
Many feel this is too soon and others don't. I personally think that the
two lights are not going to help the mental health of the city. If they
bother you when they are on please complain. Just as people can get use
to the Towers not being there, they can get use to the lights.
John Beaderstadt
> If they
> bother you when they are on please complain. Just as people can get use
> to the Towers not being there, they can get use to the lights.
Good god.
--
Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon
is almost always the most boring."
Michael Richmann
>
> Smallboat wrote:
>
> > If they
> > bother you when they are on please complain. Just as people can get use
> > to the Towers not being there, they can get use to the lights.
>
> Good god.
Ummpphh. All in all, I'd say the memorial strikes the right balance.
On for about a month and that's it.
Considering all that's occurred and how many people have been hurt, I'd
honestly say sit back and go along with the ride with everyone else.
J. Kevin Erwin
of a difference, can it?
I wonder if those two beams would be visible, and could be photographed,
from earth orbit from the space station?
"D.E. and D.K. Cobb" <dnd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C8B620B...@bellsouth.net...
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Karol
> As a resident of the area I was going to post a short history of how
> this came to be and what was going on down in this area.
>
> Short summary is this. The idea was publicly proposed right after 9/11,
> and people did not have the sense to let the idea go. The light was to
> be used to replicate the Towers. The website talked of the need to
> develop the technology to implement the proposal. Apparently they could
> not duplicate the Towers. It was than marketed as "two beams" to mark
> the event. Up to last week they talked of the lights being on from 11 AM
> to 11 PM.
How severe a light pollution is it? Anyone at the NYC?
--
Karol
Bobby
difference And to the second I am pretty sure they could photograph it
from space those things can zoom in and take very good looking pics.
-Bobby
www.saaweb.org/
"J. Kevin Erwin" <j...@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:3c8bf...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Smallboat
City (SAW THE COMET!!). There were spotlights being tested. If this are
them believe me they are bright. I mean this was one at a time. It is
not good. If clear probably it will be worst from a distance than from
directly below. Remember there are spotlight 24/7 at the site of ground
zero which are pointed at the ground. These put them to shame. - Barbara
Smallboat
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020308/168/188er.html
I suspect that was one beam.
"J. Kevin Erwin" wrote:
>
> Two new beams of light shining upward in New York City can't make that much
> of a difference, can it?
>
> I wonder if those two beams would be visible, and could be photographed,
> from earth orbit from the space station?
>
> >
>
Dan Spisak
are reminiscent of the Nazi party Nuremburg rallies.
Smallboat wrote:
>
> As a resident of the area I was going to post a short history of how
> this came to be and what was going on down in this area.
>
> snip
>
> Many feel this is too soon and others don't. I personally think that the
> two lights are not going to help the mental health of the city. If they
> bother you when they are on please complain. Just as people can get use
> to the Towers not being there, they can get use to the lights.
>
> "D.E. and D.K. Cobb" wrote:
> >
> > The news just mentioned that they will be installing two
> > snip
Michael Richmann
Which brings up a question: if the initial of the U.S. Secret Service
are S.S., does that also present a problem?
zeldman
memorial. If it makes even a few people feel better in 'light' of the
tragedy, I can't even imagine my (or anyone else's) interests in
astronomy be a rational obstacle. Moreover, from the images I've seen
so far, the beem seems pretty confined. I would be terribly saddened
to see a protest of this 'light' by astronomers – some fewer stars to
see, many more stars never to be seen again.
Az
mark d. doiron
news:3C8BE79A...@concentric.net...
snip
> All in all, I'd say the memorial strikes the
> right balance. On for about a month and
> that's it.
snip
Michael and saa--
here in oklahoma city, a chain-link fence was erected around the site of
the Murrah (federal) building to keep unauthorized folks out. it soon
became the place where folks who visited the site left something as an
offering--some of these were from the affected families (photos of the
deceased, etc), others were from local and out-of-town visitors. well,
when you visit the now completed oklahoma city memorial, you'll find
that chain-link fence is still there. this is right: i find that it's
the most emotionally charged place in the entire memorial. it brings
tears to my eyes.
my condolences to everyone in new york or whereever who was affected the
the 9/11 tragedy. however, the danger that lurks is that the twin beams
of light will become permanent, they will remain on all night, and they
will set a precedent for how memorials are constructed in other places.
clear, dark skies--
mark d.
mark d. doiron
news:fef72bd.02031...@posting.google.com...
snip
> I would be terribly saddened to see a protest
> of this 'light' by astronomers - some fewer stars
> to see, many more stars never to be seen again.
Az--
and that's the problem with this whole thing. anyone who disagrees with
this is considered an insensitive cad. just as those of us who disagree
with awarding $1.85 million dollars to each of the victim's families
must be insensitive dolt*. well, i dare say that if we were pouring
colored dye into a nearby river to mark this tragic loss of life that
there'd be plenty of protest (even if it could be proved that the dye
was harmless to the environment). why must we take the attitude that
light pollution is acceptable? it's an the attitude that should be
protested: it's not right to pollute the night sky--there are other,
just as effective ways, to memorialize this tragedy.
*and, just for the record, there have been many U.S. citizens who have
died due to terrorist actions--this is the first time we've felt it
necessary to make this type of an award. living here in oklahoma city,
i should mention that the families of those who died in the Murrah
building are now petitioning congress for their own piece of the pie.
it's not the act itself that's the problem--it's the precedent it sets.
Dave Gede
light polluted sky.
Gut Feeling: Well...How much worse could it make the sky around NYC?
As has already been noted, if it makes a few feel better in this
horrible tradgedy then let it go! Besides, it is only a temp display.
Question: Is there any significance to the 32 days? Why not 30? Why
not 35? What am I missing here?
Note: From a selfish standpoint, I just wish they had waited until
after Messier Marathon time.
God Bless all that were touched by the horrible events of 9/11.
Dave
John J. Kasianowicz
However, I wonder whether this type of lighting system will only lend
support to the folks who want to place strong lighthouse-like beacons atop
buildings in major and minor cities.
IMHO, the proposed memorial pays more homage to steel and glass than the
people who died inside the buildings. I believe there are other types of
memorials that would be more fitting than two brillliant pillars of light.
FWIW, I am quite sensitive to people who lose their lives in this tragedy. I
know someone who perished in the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.
Dave Gede wrote:
> Initial Reaction: I don't like adding another light to an already
> light polluted sky.
>
> Gut Feeling: Well...How much worse could it make the sky around NYC?
> As has already been noted, if it makes a few feel better in this
> horrible tradgedy then let it go! Besides, it is only a temp display.
[snip]
John J. Kasianowicz
that seems to achieve the objective. It pays homage to over 50,000 people
who unselfishly gave their lives. Surely, something as tasteful and moving
could be made to honor the innocents who were slaughtered in the WTC
tragedy.
Honor the dead, not the buildings.
Atreju
came from "mark d. doiron" <delete@markdoiron@yahoo.com> :
>"zeldman" <zel...@psych.rochester.edu> wrote in message
>news:fef72bd.02031...@posting.google.com...
>
>snip
>
>> I would be terribly saddened to see a protest
>> of this 'light' by astronomers - some fewer stars
>> to see, many more stars never to be seen again.
>
>Az--
>
>and that's the problem with this whole thing. anyone who disagrees with
>this is considered an insensitive cad. just as those of us who disagree
>with awarding $1.85 million dollars to each of the victim's families
>must be insensitive dolt*. well, i dare say that if we were pouring
>colored dye into a nearby river to mark this tragic loss of life that
>there'd be plenty of protest (even if it could be proved that the dye
>was harmless to the environment). why must we take the attitude that
>light pollution is acceptable? it's an the attitude that should be
>protested: it's not right to pollute the night sky--there are other,
>just as effective ways, to memorialize this tragedy.
I agree. Although I feel that if they're only going to do it for a
month, then there's no sense in making a stink about it.
But it is huge light pollution, and it will get people comfortable
with the idea of shining lights into the sky.
Also it is a huge waste of electricity.
Lastly, the huge sums of money they are dishing out should be taken
from the people responsible for the tragedy.
Has the government not thought to sieze some oil wells in the middle
east belonging to members of the terrorist nation? Osama's got tons of
money - shouldn't we be completely taking over everything he owns?
Give THAT money to the victims.
Anyway, enough rant about the lights. They just better not make a
habit of it.
Daniel
> ... My condolences to any of you that observe within
> 50 miles of NYC.
Sorry Danny, but my condolences go to the tens of thousands who
suffered the agonies of being attacked and the loss of loved ones on
9/11. It's a memorial to those people. If anyone needs a reminder of
the need for a memorial, I recommend:
http://www.politicsandprotest.org/
While the choice of any memorial will impact some negatively, the
need in this case far outweighs the temporary impact of this choice on
the astronomical community. I personally hope that these lights are
seen around the world and not just within 50 miles of NYC.
Daniel
Al
different. Unlike Vietnam, the tragic passing of almost 3,000 citizens is
always associated closely with the 2 towers. We _are_ honoring the
dead...not the buildings.
Al
"John J. Kasianowicz" <sur...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:a6ibte$lb3$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Doug S.
I agree with every word you said!
The memorials we create should be appropriate and responsible. Beaming 600,000
watts of electricty into the night sky shows very poor judgement on the part of
organizers and the officials who OK'd the plan. So many other good options were
there. Or maybe someone felt it vitally important that the astronauts aboard
the ISS be able to share that twin beacon.
Doug S.
P. Edward Murray
And just where does their money come from?
It is my hope that this does not instigate others to
use light as a performance piece. Especially in places
that have dark skies.
Ed
Wayne Howell
> We _are_ honoring the dead...not the buildings.
So it's just coincidental that the memorial is twin beams of light, set up to
look very much like the twin towers?
If we're _really_ honoring the dead, not the buildings, why aren't we also doing
something at this same time to honor those who died at the Pentagon? Or those
who died in PA? Or, don't those count just as much as those who died at the
WTC? If we're honoring the dead, it is just _some_ of the dead.
No.....I agree.....we're putting up a memorial to the Twin Towers.
--
.....Wayne Howell.....
...Port Townsend, WA..
who...@gensearch.com
eschew obfuscation!
Wayne Howell
"D.E. and D.K. Cobb" wrote:
> Fortunately, the lights are planned to be shut off after 32
> days.
_Unfortunately, Fox News this morning revised that statement to
read.....The lights _may_ be turned off after 32 days. Studies are going
to be done to see if the lights bother airplanes landing at the NY
airports. If they are not bothered, the lights _may_ be made a
permanent memorial!
Wayne Howell
"J. Kevin Erwin" wrote:
> Two new beams of light shining upward in New York City can't make that much
> of a difference, can it?
I would guess you haven't experienced the light beam shooting up from atop one
of the casinos at Las Vegas! I have seen that beam from over 50 miles away
probing up into the dark night sky.
That light is _one_ single bulb....EACH bulb in the tower memorial is on the
order of 20 times brighter,, there are four bulbs per light pod and there are
82 (if I remember correctly) separate light pods!! If I figure correctly, that
means the light intensity at the WTC will be about 6500 times greater than the
outrageous light in Las Vegas!!
STEVE S.
every bomb detonated or rifle fired that eliminates one more subhuman
terrorist. We should count our blessings that light pollution can even
be a major concern. Everyone into astronomy is aware of light
pollution but criticizing this WTC tribute is only apt to bring
negative publicity to our cause.
Al
what one says, someone will _always_ be offended! Someone will always find
an obscure reason to complain.
See my comments below:
"Wayne Howell" <who...@gensearch.com> wrote in message
news:3C8CFB5C...@gensearch.com...
> Al wrote:
>
> > We _are_ honoring the dead...not the buildings.
>
> So it's just coincidental that the memorial is twin beams of light, set up
to
> look very much like the twin towers?
If you would have taken the time to read what I said, you would understand
that the towers are associated with those who purished on 9/11. We are not
honoring the buildings, we are honoring the dead!
>
> If we're _really_ honoring the dead, not the buildings, why aren't we also
doing
> something at this same time to honor those who died at the Pentagon? Or
those
> who died in PA?
Who said that we're not? I understand that there are plans to build a
memorial at the site of the crash in PA. I don't know what plans Washington
is currently entertaining regarding a memorial, but I believe there are
plans in the works.
Or, don't those count just as much as those who died at the
> WTC? If we're honoring the dead, it is just _some_ of the dead.
>
> No.....I agree.....we're putting up a memorial to the Twin Towers.
What's happening in New York City regarding a memorial is just that. This
tragedy happened in New York City...not in Port Townsend, WA. We in NY will
memorialize this tragedy as we see fit. Washington DC and PA will do the
same. By the way, what are they doing in Port Townsend??
Al
Stephen Paul
to honor the memories of loved ones than by thinking about their horrible
end and those who caused it. I try to remember those who have died for what
they did while they were alive.
The very idea of a site being hollowed ground is born out of the same
instinctive religious nature that gives rise to human hatred, bigotry and
the sense of righteous indignation that leads to retaliation (the heart of
the terrorist and the war monger), rather than long term justice (the heart
of the peacemaker).
I think that the lights are a bad idea. Not because of the precedence of
light as art, but because it seems to me that it attempts to bring peace to
the mourners through too shallow a gesture. For me, the lights are more
representative of the Phoenix in us, the desire to rise from the ashes, and
to the occasion of thumbing our noses at the terrorists.
I don't get it. I don't see it. There will be no peace for the mourners
until the terrorists are brought to their knees in justice. To prove the
point, consider that all it's going to take to shake the mourners up again,
is another attack, no matter how small or ineffective. And each attack, or
threat of attack is going to bring it all back.
No, I'm afraid this is a vain effort at peace of mind. For generations, in
honor of the dead we have erected monuments of stone, with each of the
victims names engraved there for all to see. All I'm going to see from this
is more unwanted light. When I choose to remember the tragedy, all I need do
is pop in the video tape of the news on 9/11. I don't know any of the
victims personally and I have nothing to remember about them, except what
those who did know them, tell me. I want a book, that has a short biography
on each person lost on that terrible day.
That would be a true memorial and give increased value to the lives lost...
a huge gesture. The proceeds from the sale of that book could then be
dontated to the families.
--
-Stephen Paul
"STEVE S." <STEVE...@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:9a2b4120.02031...@posting.google.com...
Wayne Howell
Al wrote:
> >
> > So it's just coincidental that the memorial is twin beams of light, set up
> to
> > look very much like the twin towers?
>
> If you would have taken the time to read what I said, you would understand
> that the towers are associated with those who purished on 9/11. We are not
> honoring the buildings, we are honoring the dead!
I can't quote directly but I can paraphrase what both CBS and Fox News said this
morning.......they both said that the lighting pods were being placed very
carefully so as to have the beams of light look like the columns and structures
of the Twin Towers.
They further stated that a temporary plaque (temporary awaiting the decision if
the lights would be come permanent) was being placed to memorialize the World
Trade Center and the tragdey of Sep 11, 2001.
> By the way, what are they doing in Port Townsend??
Port Townsend is a very small townabout as far north as you can get without
crossing into Canada.....it's "downtown" is 5 blocks long, facing the Puget
Sound. As far as anyone knows, no one associated with this area died on 9/11.
But, nevertheless, we have painted a mural on the side of the biggest building
on Water (Main) Street--it's about 75 feet long and three stories tall.....it
depicts a portion of the New York skyline, with the two towers burning. The
caption says "In memory of more than three thousand Americans.....lest we forget
September 11, 2001"
We won't be putting up a light beacon.......
Roland Roberts
ed> I understand that Con Edison is donating the money. And just
ed> where does their money come from?
Yeah; I protested the memorial when it was proposed. Now I get to
subsidize it through Con Ed. Unless they meant it was going to come
out of the Con Ed exec's salaries.... 8-0
roland
--
PGP Key ID: 66 BC 3B CD
Roland B. Roberts, PhD RL Enterprises
rol...@rlenter.com 76-15 113th Street, Apt 3B
rol...@astrofoto.org Forest Hills, NY 11375
Roland Roberts
Wayne> "D.E. and D.K. Cobb" wrote:
>> Fortunately, the lights are planned to be shut off after 32
>> days.
Wayne> _Unfortunately, Fox News this morning revised that
Wayne> statement to read.....The lights _may_ be turned off after
Wayne> 32 days. Studies are going to be done to see if the lights
Wayne> bother airplanes landing at the NY airports. If they are
Wayne> not bothered, the lights _may_ be made a permanent
Wayne> memorial!
I have wondered about this; I mean they shine directly upward in what
is essentially a flight path along the Hudson River for LaGuardia
airport.
I can only hope the FAA and pilots complain. From my apartment in
Queens, those lights shine
directly upward into the section of the sky where comet Ikeya-Zhang is
currently located :-(
Al
THIS SAY YOU...I DON'T BELIEVE IT! SHOW ME A PICTURE.
AL
John J. Kasianowicz
John J. Kasianowicz
Daniel wrote:
[snip]>I personally hope that these lights are
John J. Kasianowicz
> The lights are clearly honoring the building.
oops .... buildings
Ken Clause
No need to worry about light pollution unless you are in downtown Manhatten.
The lights are blue and not very bright. I don't think it will be a problum.
Ken Clause
Metuchen, NJ
P. Edward Murray
I was expecting white lights.
Ed
Al
tonight and there was no reference to the loss of the buildings. The
purpose of the ceremony was to honor the dead...not the towers. Watch the
ceremony yourself on C-span, then draw a conclusion.
Al
"John J. Kasianowicz" <sur...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:a6jinf$6l7$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
John J. Kasianowicz
cannot see it.
No one in their right mind would state anything else than the lights honor
the dead. So for them, it does. My point was that someone could have easily
have designed a memorial that was more in keeping with respecting and
honoring those who senselessly lost their lives on 9/11. The lights most
obviously symbolize the two edifices. However, if they work for you, that's
great.
You apparently did not understand what I meant by the significance of the
Vietnam War Memorial in Washington, DC. Those stone slabs, carefully hidden
in a hillside, are a powerful and graphic reminder of those who perished in
that conflict. This simple structure shows that it is possible to capture a
tragedy, no matter how horrific, in a tasteful and dignified manner.
Thankfully, I lost no close relative in that war. Neverthless, I am moved to
tears when I walk through that memorial. Also, the quiet battlefield at
Gettysburg, and the powerful words of Lincoln that are tightly coupled to
that land are yet another example of how to approach a memorial in a
meaningful way.
Someone very close to me lost her father in the plane that was forced into
the Pentagon that morning. I would hate to see his great life memorialized
by what I believe is an inappropriate gesture.
Robin R. Wier
Hi Ed,
Wouldn't the perceived brightness be dependent on atmospheric conditions
(particulate, moisture, etc.)? I would guess that on the moon, for
instance, the light towers would be invisible. If so, the more the
memorial lights would show, the worse the seeing would have been that
night for observers anyhow.
Robin
Robin R. Wier
Follow up. If I lived within eyesight of the tower lights, I would use their
apparent brightness as a observing guide. If I could see lighted buildings
of Manhattan, stars above, and no tower lights (assuming they are still
on), I would know instantly to get out the scope. I would also know the
lights would not adversely affect my seeing.
Robin
P. Edward Murray
If the atmosphere was dusty or humid it sure would do
something but I don't know what.
I just wonder how far away these things can be seen?
And would they show up as "Fake Aurora" if your south
of them?
Ed
Martin Brown
"P. Edward Murray" wrote:
> On the tv it didn't look very bright either.
> I was expecting white lights.
You cannot see a light beam in a clean atmosphere. Most of the light
that you see has to be scattered off dust and water vapour in the air. A
tiny amount of blue light is back scattered even in clean air so it
looks bluish. On a nice clear day the majority of the light goes
straight up and is wasted.
When there is a light mist or clouds above you will be able to see how
much power is in the beam.
This is an exceptional situation and I can't see that they are doing any
harm for 30 days.
(if it starts a trend of putting mega light beams on tops of sky
scrapers then I will revise my opinion)
Regards,
Martin Brown
Paul Schlyter
Al <aoccB...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Why is this left field hypothesis so clear to you? I watched the ceremony
> tonight and there was no reference to the loss of the buildings. The
> purpose of the ceremony was to honor the dead...not the towers. Watch the
> ceremony yourself on C-span, then draw a conclusion.
since the loss of those buildings wasn't that insignificant, was it?
If the ceremony was ONLY for the dead, as you here claim, why weren't
those who died at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania on 11 Sept honored?
And why aren't other similarly large numbers of people who die
honored too? EACH YEAR, you have a number of people killed in the
traffic which well exceeds those 2,600 (yep, the most recent count is
down to 2,600 now) who died in the WTC tragedy - but they don't
receive similar ceremonies? Why? They too have relatives/etc mourning
them...
The obvious answer is of course that there were more than people which
died on 11 Sept, and that's what the ceremony is about.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40, S-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at saaf dot se
WWW: http://hem.passagen.se/pausch/index.html
http://home.tiscali.se/~pausch/
Daniel
Hi John,
I'm assuming that you're being facetious ;^) If not, note that I
said "hope" which is considerably different from "accomplished".
Secondly, "seen around the world" is a figure of speech which is
considerably different than a literal truism. Hence, my "hope" that
these lights are "seen around the world" could be "accomplished" via
the media.
At the risk of becoming tedious, a scan of this morning's news
reveals coverage in the BBC, CNN, Financial Times, The Telegraph,
Sydney Morning Herald, ABC(Australia), Wall Street Journal, Pravda,
China Daily, People's Daily, Turkish Daily News, Times of India,
International Herald Tribune, Toronto Star...
Daniel
Smallboat
of the "Tribute of Lights". Right after 9/11 residents of NYC were
obviously very shaken. The Towers were gone. Many below the age of 35
did not know any other skyline. People complained of the void cause by
the lack of the Towers and the need to fill this void. From these came
the concept of replacing the void with light.
Originally lighting designers were all over the talk shows. "We don't
have to feel this void. We can replace them." Pictures were shown of
what the design would be - a holographic replacement of the Towers. The
people pushing this to the people never admitted that they could not do
what they proposed. Also no one discussed the natural maturing of grief
and that other issues would be more important than what the NYC skyline
looked like.
Jump to about two weeks ago. The six-month anniversary is about to be
upon the city. The need for a ceremony is felt necessary by some and
there were strong political reasons to have one. Part of the ceremony is
to be an unveiling of an "official memorial". (If you think there are
not memorials down here you are quite mistaken.) The "Tower of Light"
group is pushing their proposal. General Electric reveals the "special"
light bulbs they say were designed just for this event. To the residents
of lower Manhattan they talk about how it would only be possible to view
the lights because of the available dust and water vapor in the
atmosphere. They push this as if it will be due to the specially
designed lights, which highlights the dusty air. Con Ed says they will
donate the electricity as if this doesn't eventually cost the consumer.
There is a second approved memorial to which the Community Advisory
Board agrees. A statue from the WTC is to be place in Battery Park. This
will hopefully draw tourist to the West Side to help those businesses.
After the plan is approved the Mayor announces at a news conference that
not only will the statues be located at a children's play area instead,
it will be closed to the general public. Finally the "Tribute of Lights"
were to be on these large platform in another area.
The design of the light show was leaked to the public including a
platform spanning the highway. After much discussion the final design
including a smaller footprint for the lights. The lights are located a
few blocks north of the WTC site and therefore do not "restore the
skyline". At this point the resident of NYC that I have spoken to think
that the idea is just dumb. It is important that people adversely
affected by the lights complain. It is good the several of the
newspapers discussed grief healing and the idea that the need of the
entire city be taken into account. The news media is busy pushing the
fact that the lights are a good thing and trying to convince people this
is something they should want to embrace. - Barbara
STEVE S.
> Somehow I think that those who lost someone in that tragedy have better ways
> to honor the memories of loved ones than by thinking about their horrible
> end and those who caused it. I try to remember those who have died for what
> they did while they were alive.
>
I agree with almost every thought you've expressed in your post. I
lost a childhood friend at Cantor Fitzgerald and no memorial is ever
fitting to honor the death of innocents. I think many of us miss the
point of the 9-11 tribute, it was more than the cowardly murder of
civilians, it was an attack on the American soul. The way the world
responded to Nazi terrorism was to crush them, then round up try and
execute party leaders. It worked. We as a civilization can't forget
how the victims of 9-11 died it keeps strong our resolve to prevent a
repeat.
Respectfully,
Steve S.
Al
"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> wrote in message
news:a6kbha$9k$1...@merope.saaf.se...
> In article <vHdj8.6134$Ex5.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Al <aoccB...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Why is this left field hypothesis so clear to you? I watched the
ceremony
> > tonight and there was no reference to the loss of the buildings. The
> > purpose of the ceremony was to honor the dead...not the towers. Watch
the
> > ceremony yourself on C-span, then draw a conclusion.
>
> I'm quite convinced the ceremony was for BOTH the read and the buildings,
> since the loss of those buildings wasn't that insignificant, was it?
Of course not, but the buildings can be replaced at the cost of time and
money. Those who lost their lives can never be replaced.
>
> If the ceremony was ONLY for the dead, as you here claim, why weren't
> those who died at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania on 11 Sept honored?
Because this ceremony was orchestrated by the city of New York for the
people of the city of New York. The people in Pennsylvania (where one of
the jetliners crashed) also had a ceremony. BTW, yesterdays ceremony in
Pennsylvania did not honor the destruction of a 757, it honored the people
who died in that 757.
>
> And why aren't other similarly large numbers of people who die
> honored too?
I think you are desperately trying to be argumentative here and you're doing
a poor job of it. If your mother dies and your family gives her a funeral
service, is that service only for your mother? What about all the other
mothers who died before her? Shouldn't they also be honored?
EACH YEAR, you have a number of people killed in the
> traffic which well exceeds those 2,600 (yep, the most recent count is
> down to 2,600 now) who died in the WTC tragedy - but they don't
> receive similar ceremonies? Why? They too have relatives/etc mourning
> them...
Last time I looked (yesterday), the death toll in the WTC tragedy was over
2800. So your news source is indeed questionable...as is your rationale.
In this country, we honor our dead one at a time and we do so as we see fit.
If a family is mourning the death of Elaine, who was hit by a train, the
family of Gus, who was hit by a bus, will not feel that Gus was dishonored
at Elaine's funeral service. How do they do it in your country?
Al
Tony Flanders
> I'm quite convinced the ceremony was for BOTH the read and the buildings,
> since the loss of those buildings wasn't that insignificant, was it?
Of course it was -- and rightly so! The buildings and the people who
died in them are intertwined, and will remain so to the end of history.
Nobody will ever be able to think of the World Trade Center without
thinking of the people who died there. While they stood, they were
mildy interesting buildings; now, they are unique.
And for a city to have its principal landmark ripped out is a terrible
thing; it is impossible to look at the New York skyline without being
aware of the buildings' absence -- like an amputated limb. The irony
is that many people love them in their absence, but few people loved
them during their lives. I, and most other New Yorkers that I know,
despised them when they were built -- a huge step backwards, in my
opinion. Together with the vast sense of loss, there is a small sense
of joy in seeing the New York skyline as it was when I was a child,
rising to a crest in midtown like the mast of a ship, not with some
huge, blocky, ugly outsized handle on the end of it.
And much as I object to those beams on principle, I am sure that they
are quite lovely to see -- unlike the buildings that they represent.
A situation full of ironies and contradictions for me.
I will be able to judge for myself when I visit my family for Passover.
I am also curious to see just what the effect is on the skyglow, although
it will be hard to judge that at full Moon, as it always is at Passover.
> And why aren't other similarly large numbers of people who die
> honored too? EACH YEAR, you have a number of people killed in the
> traffic which well exceeds those 2,600 ... who died in the WTC tragedy
Make that every month. Very likely, more people died in traffic
accidents in the U.S. in September 2001 than in the entire affair.
Certainly, more people died of heart attacks and cancer. Probably
more people die every hour of Aids in Africa, and who ever thinks of
them? Measured in total loss of life, amortized over the world,
Sept. 11 was negligible.
Not so in New York City, of course, nor in Washington, nor in Boston
either, where many of the airplane victims lived. But even there,
it is not so much the loss of life that matters.
Partly, it is the fact that so many people died together, partly
the fact that they died of an unexpected cause. Especially because
it was in the industrialized world. When 10,000 people die in a
flood in China, it is a small article in the back pages of the
newspaper, but we are supposed to be immune from that kind of
disaster -- and for the most part, we are.
But above all because they died at somebody else's hands. People
fear people above all. Threats from inanimate forces don't carry
the same kind of dread as threats from violence; people would far
rather take a 1 in a 1000 chance of dying in a car crash than a
1 in a 1,000,000 chance of being killed at knifepoint. Irrational?
Maybe. But certainly true.
- Tony Flanders
John Savard
<dax...@hotmail.com> wrote, in part:
>I want a book, that has a short biography
>on each person lost on that terrible day.
So do I.
But I also want to see it made the primary educational textbook for
schools across the Middle East.
Chris Matthaei
>On the tv it didn't look very bright either.
>I was expecting white lights.
I saw it on TV this morning. It doesn't look nearly as cool as I thought
it would.
Chris
Bill Foley
> The news just mentioned that they will be installing two
> arrays of searchlights to beam two columns of light, with
> the same footprint as the WTC, straight up into space.
> Something like 600,000 watts of light pollution.
> night sky? My condolences to any of you that observe within
> 50 miles of NYC.
>
> Danny Cobb
Well, this is supposed to just be for 30 or 31 days. Of course, now
that these light sources have been made, I bet they will not just
throw them away or put them in the Smithsonian. I would imagine that
they will go on tour around the country, and be shining in YOUR
neighborhood before long, if you live in the USA.
Daniel
> ... I want a book, that has a short biography
> on each person lost on that terrible day.
Hi Stephen,
It exists, though not yet as a bound set of volumes in print.
Newsday has been compiling it continuously since 9/11 and publishing
the profiles daily. It's available in its entirety online at
http://www.newsday.com/news/ny-victimsdatabase.framedurl
Daniel
Mark Wagner
: http://www.newsday.com/news/ny-victimsdatabase.framedurl
Thank you for posting this.
--
Mark Wagner
Astronomy-Mall.com LCLG Observatory: 37:13:36N 121:58:25W
Big Dog Observing Group: http://www201.pair.com/resource/bigdog
Daniel
>
> I'm quite convinced the ceremony was for BOTH the read and the buildings,
> since the loss of those buildings wasn't that insignificant, was it?
I'm sorry to be so blunt Paul, but you might want to rethink that
statement. It is undoubtedly one of the most asinine things I've
heard in regard to the attack and its aftermath. I've yet to meet a
single person who gives a damn about the buildings. We can recreate
buildings by the thousands, all it takes is money and the US has
absolutely incredibly tremendous amounts of that. We cannot recreate
a single life of the innocents who were murdered.
> If the ceremony was ONLY for the dead, as you here claim, why weren't
> those who died at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania on 11 Sept honored?
You're ignorant of the facts Paul. The ceremony in NYC was for the
WTC victims. Another ceremony was held in Washington, DC for the
Pentagon victims, and yet another ceremony was held in Shanksville,
Pennsylvania for those who were murdered there.
> And why aren't other similarly large numbers of people who die
> honored too? EACH YEAR, you have a number of people killed in the
> traffic which well exceeds those 2,600 (yep, the most recent count is
> down to 2,600 now) who died in the WTC tragedy
One, you're trivializing a hellish act of evil through the pretense
that 2,600 murdered is less evil than some greater number. That's
morally repugnant. Two, you're again ignorant of the facts:
Associated Press, 11 March 2002:
"Official count of victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks:
NEW YORK: 2,830 ... WASHINGTON: 189 ... PENNSYLVANIA: 44 ...
TOTAL: 3,063"
> - but they don't
> receive similar ceremonies? Why? They too have relatives/etc mourning
> them...
What in the hell do highway deaths have to do with it? There is
absolutely no corrolation whatsoever between the two. You're
dissembling.
> The obvious answer is of course that there were more than people which
> died on 11 Sept, and that's what the ceremony is about.
Yes, you're right. You're absolutely right, and you've proved it
here. A sense of human decency evidently died in some people.
Daniel
*CathySienko
D. Couillard
I was not going to wade into this issue. However, after visiting the website
that Daniel posted I felt that I had to make my feelings felt.
One look at the enormity of this list, and all the debate over the existence
and nature of a memorial seems trivial and insignificant.
Visit this website, read the names and the stories, look at the pictures.
Then take a moment and reflect on the impact that the events of September
11th have had on everyone! Remember how devastated and helpless we all felt,
watching those events unfold before our very eyes. Now take a moment to say
a prayer. For those who died, for those left to mourn, for all of us who are
still impacted by what happened that awful day.
There will be a time to debate this and other tributes and memorials, but
this is not the time. The world is still in the healing process, and if this
memorial helps even one person bring closure, or brings any amount of
comfort, then these lights have done exactly what they were intended to do.
If you find them inconvenient or inappropriate that is your right, but don't
try to take them away from others who may feel that they are a fine tribute.
Blast me if you feel you must, but this is how I feel and no amount of
debate or argument is going to change that.
For those who missed it, here is the website that Daniel posted.
http://www.newsday.com/news/ny-victimsdatabase.framedurl
--
Duff Couillard
Canada
Dan Spisak
This morning PBS interviewed one of the lead
designers/architects about the memorial lights. Apparently
six architects came up with the idea and ramrodded it
through the NYC. The lighting system must be costly. He
said that the searchlights came from the West Coast and the
bulbs from Italy. He also said the technical challenge was
daunting (for searchlights?!).
On the positive side PBS said the lights would be turned off
at 11 PM. The Audubon Society can have the lights shut off
if there are flocks of migrating birds nearby. The FAA can
have the lights shutoff if there is cloud cover that can
cause a problem for airplanes.
Perhaps a local astronomy organization can arrange to have
the lights shut off if there is a significant viewing
opportunity.
Michael wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 03:05:58 GMT, Dan Spisak <dspi...@attbi.com>,
> wrote the following in sci.astro.amateur:
>
> > The problem with columns/shafts/towers of light is that they
> > are reminiscent of the Nazi party Nuremburg rallies.
>
> I'd say they're more reminiscent of the new models arriving at the
> Chevy dealership.
>
> It's elaborate opening ceremonies at the Olympics that are reminiscent
> of the Nazis. And don't get me started on Volkswagens.
> --
> Michael
John J. Kasianowicz
piece that you suggest.
John Steinberg wrote:
> Right, and the Vietnam Memorial is a tribute to black marble.
Mark Wagner
I find it astonishing that people are debating the appropriateness of a
temporary memorial to a tragedy of global significance, at a time when
families are still in grief and "recovery" efforts are still underway.
Have some empathy for the families and friends.
Go visit the web-page and read a few stories. Perhaps you'll recognize
yourself in some of them.
Smallboat said. . . :
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P. Edward Murray
While I was very lucky not to have any family members lost, I did fear
for them because of a sister who recently moved from Brooklyn and an
Uncle who works in the city.
I felt the impact too because one of my Township Supervisors lost a son
and the Pilot of one of the jets lived not too far from me.
But let's not forget that the Bible tells us that "The heavens above
declare the glory of God"
Two blue beams of light pale in comparison to a Great Aurora and those
in NYC have never
seen that from the city.
And a Great Aurora is more, much more awe inspiring than those beams of
light!
Paul Schlyter
Tony Flanders <tony_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> pau...@saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) wrote in message news:<a6kbha$9k$1...@merope.saaf.se>...
>
>> I'm quite convinced the ceremony was for BOTH the read and the buildings,
>> since the loss of those buildings wasn't that insignificant, was it?
>
> Of course it was -- and rightly so! The buildings and the people who
> died in them are intertwined, and will remain so to the end of history.
> Nobody will ever be able to think of the World Trade Center without
> thinking of the people who died there. While they stood, they were
> mildy interesting buildings; now, they are unique.
>
> And for a city to have its principal landmark ripped out is a terrible
> thing;
Aren't buildings who are the "principal landmark" of "the capital of
the world" more than "mildly interesting"? When the WTC was erected,
the twin towers were the tallest buildings of the world -- for a year
or two, before Sear's Tower in Chicago took over. The twin towers
were also built in a new way, with most of the supporting structure
on the OUTSIDE of the buildings. Unfortunately, this way of building
the towers appears to have contributed to their rapid collapse after
they were hit by the airplanes. In the future, skyscrapers will most
likely be built in a different way.
> it is impossible to look at the New York skyline without being
> aware of the buildings' absence -- like an amputated limb. The irony
> is that many people love them in their absence, but few people loved
> them during their lives.
They certainly weren't beautiful. But in a way they were in tune
with the rational and practical way of e.g. building the streets in
many american cities: straight streets perpendicular to one another,
and they're numbered, not named. Very unimaginative, but also very
practical -- you never had to ask e.g. "I live at 81st Street" --
"Oh, where's that?" :-)
I cna only agree with what you write here. Just one addition: besides
all the victims, one thing which died on 11 Sept was the sense of
perceiving yourself as invulnerable. Perhaps that's what those
ceremonies really are about.
Paul Schlyter
> On the tv it didn't look very bright either. I was expecting white lights.
These "Towers of Light" would probably look white to an eye adapted
to daylight. Which mean they'll look bluish to an eye adapted to the
much redder light from our lamps during nighttime.
Paul Schlyter
Daniel <Dani...@unitedstates.com> wrote:
> Paul Schlyter wrote ...
>
>> I'm quite convinced the ceremony was for BOTH the read and the buildings,
>> since the loss of those buildings wasn't that insignificant, was it?
>
> I'm sorry to be so blunt Paul, but you might want to rethink that
> statement. It is undoubtedly one of the most asinine things I've
> heard in regard to the attack and its aftermath. I've yet to meet a
> single person who gives a damn about the buildings.
Someone else who posted here called them "landmarks" of your city.
They were easily visible and quite obvious. In time, they'll
probably get rebuilt in one form or another -- already three have been
several different proposals.
So perhaps this is news for you, but people DO give a damn about those
buildings!
> We can recreate buildings by the thousands, all it takes is money
> and the US has absolutely incredibly tremendous amounts of that.
> We cannot recreate a single life of the innocents who were murdered.
I'm sorry but you're wrong here: your people give birth to not just
thousands but hundreds of thousands of babies yearly! True, you
cannot get those individuals who died back, of course -- but you
cannot get the original buildings back either. All you can do is to
create replacements.
>> If the ceremony was ONLY for the dead, as you here claim, why weren't
>> those who died at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania on 11 Sept honored?
>
> You're ignorant of the facts Paul. The ceremony in NYC was for the
> WTC victims. Another ceremony was held in Washington, DC for the
> Pentagon victims, and yet another ceremony was held in Shanksville,
> Pennsylvania for those who were murdered there.
I'm probably also biased by the media here: I only saw reports of
the NYC ceremony.
>> And why aren't other similarly large numbers of people who die
>> honored too? EACH YEAR, you have a number of people killed in the
>> traffic which well exceeds those 2,600 (yep, the most recent count is
>> down to 2,600 now) who died in the WTC tragedy
>
> One, you're trivializing a hellish act of evil through the pretense
> that 2,600 murdered is less evil than some greater number.
Well, it must be! Consider the opposite claim: "it doesn't matter
whether 2,600 or some greater number of people were killed" -- what
would such an idea imply? Think about it for awhile, whether it
would matter or not if an additional number of people were killed...
> That's
> morally repugnant. Two, you're again ignorant of the facts:
> Associated Press, 11 March 2002:
> "Official count of victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks:
> NEW YORK: 2,830 ... WASHINGTON: 189 ... PENNSYLVANIA: 44 ...
> TOTAL: 3,063"
OK, my numbers may be wrong -- but the number has been steadily declining
since the initial guesses of some 20,000 to 30,000 people.
>> - but they don't
>> receive similar ceremonies? Why? They too have relatives/etc mourning
>> them...
>
> What in the hell do highway deaths have to do with it? There is
> absolutely no corrolation whatsoever between the two.
They have one thing in common: people died in both cases, and the
dead ones have relatives and friends who mourn their lost loved ones.
And we can never ever bring them back.
I was informed that my guess of 2600 (ok, make that 3000) traffic
victims yearly in the US was a gross understatement -- it's more like
3000 victims monthly. Which means that since the WTC catastrophy,
about six times the number of the WTC victims were killed in traffic
accidents. While the 3000 who died on 11 Sept was a catastrophy and
a natilan trauma, the almost 20,000 who've died in traffic accidents
since then seems to be considered almost "natural".
Think about that for awhile -- if this was ONLY about the people who
died, would this make sense? Of course not -- it just doesn't make
sense to have big ceremonies for 3,000 innocent victims who died,
while ignoring 20,000 (or more) other victims who also died.
Therefore, these ceremonies must be about something more than the
victims.
> You're dissembling.
>
>> The obvious answer is of course that there were more than people which
>> died on 11 Sept, and that's what the ceremony is about.
>
> Yes, you're right. You're absolutely right, and you've proved it
> here. A sense of human decency evidently died in some people.
>
> Daniel
:-) ... I don't think so. People are just as decent -- or indecent if
you so prefer -- today as before 11 Sept.
But another thing did die on 11 Sept: a sense of invulerability in the
western world, and particularly in the US.
D. Couillard
mind that we are talking about beams of light aimed towards the sky. I
certainly understand that if these lights are causing problems to pilots in
the area (as was suggested in a post), or are creating so much dispersant
light that it is keeping people awake in neighbouring areas, then this needs
to be addressed. There may also be other ways that these lights could cause
discomfort, but I'm not going to spend time trying to figure out what they
all might be. However, I don't believe that this is the case. Most of the
arguments that I read here are either complaining about the inconvenience to
amateur astronomers, or feel that this tribute is inappropriate for any
number of reasons (too expensive, memorializes the buildings not the people,
just adding to light pollution.etc). To me, and given the context that this
memorial was established, these arguments really don't have much merit, and
seem fairly trivial and selfish. Maybe I'm missing something here, but this
is what I perceive from this thread. I'm sure that in time the debate will
settle down, people will become accustomed to the memorial, and the world
will keep on turning. And no doubt, once the memorial is removed there will
be people who say that they miss it, and it should be brought back
permanently (probably no one from this group though :)). I'm certainly
willing to listen to reasonable arguments and I will respect everyone else's
opinion, but so far I haven't seen anything that has changed my perspective
on this subject......man, I'm really rambling on here. 'Nuff said I guess
:)
Duff Couillard
"Smallboat" <Snake...@att.net> wrote in message
news:3C8EC266...@att.net...
John J. Kasianowicz
John Steinberg wrote:
> My initial post pointed out that you were being foolish. This follow up
> suggests the problem is systemic.
D. Couillard
question the motive and driving factors behind this particular memorial.
This suggests that there are a few special interest agendas behind this
decision, and perhaps there were deals made and finalized long before the
public was given a chance to seriously debate the final product. As an
employee of a municipal government (as with any large corporation), I am
certainly aware of decisions that are made behind closed doors that are
eventually brought to the public or stakeholders in carefully designed
campaigns that are intended to garner support without too much discussion or
dissention (no...I am not a paranoid delusional and I don't lay awake at
night trying to uncover conspiracy theories)
Still, at the heart of the matter is what this memorial represents. Is it
the perfect idea? No, of course not. There is probably no such thing.
Admittedly, everyone has their own perspective which they are entitled to,
and yes, there are some who are profiting from this endeavour. But, if it
causes you to stop for even a moment and reflect...then this memorial has
achieved something significant.
Duff Couillard
P. Edward Murray
United States needs to reflect on the
events of 9/11, because we never have
stopped talking or hearing about it.
Earlier posters hinted at an agenda somewhere.
Now, I don't know what that would be but it's
not new.
This is just one more "performance piece".
Except that this one didn't die at birth.
I'm very much afraid that it will help to inspire
more of these "light nightmares" being erected
all over the country.
Ed
Smallboat
9/11/2002 or until there is a permanent memorial". I cannot think of
anyone in the NY metropolitan area who was not affected by 9/11. They
are still finding bodies. People are impacted in many ways. To decide to
go ahead with the lights they had to ignore requests from those who said
they would be disturbed by the lights. This included public statements
from victim families. About two weeks ago when they announced the plan
it described as giving a ghost like appearance of the Towers. The
designer stated that it would shimmer with the wind. That did not go
over well. The initial starting time was to be 11 am. (How that was
going to work I don't know). Families whose 6-12 year old children would
be attending school up from the site were concerned. These kids had just
returned to their schools last month.
For me it is not that bad. I am directly under the lights so I see less
than most. If I wish to observe I will just go to sleep early and view
late. However, this is not about Astronomy. It is about the fact that
once you decide to stick a light beam as a memorial you force its
viewing on many in the public. The choice is taken from many. People who
said "It's too soon" are told that their healing needs rank below others
who feel it should be done.
The lighting designers talk about the healing power the lights can have.
It can also have a negative emotional impact. However, people are told
it is not politically correct to express their discomfort. If a memorial
is at the site I can choose to go see it. If it is blasted in the air
the choice is taken from me. - Barbara
Roland Roberts
Smallboat> For me it is not that bad. I am directly under the
Smallboat> lights so I see less than most. If I wish to observe I
Smallboat> will just go to sleep early and view late. However,
Smallboat> this is not about Astronomy. It is about the fact that
Smallboat> once you decide to stick a light beam as a memorial you
Smallboat> force its viewing on many in the public. The choice is
Smallboat> taken from many. People who said "It's too soon" are
Smallboat> told that their healing needs rank below others who
Smallboat> feel it should be done.
On Tuesday evening, I had a chance to walk past the site where the
lights are located. After work, I had been visiting friends in
Battery Park City (Gateway Plaza for those of you who know NYC), and
the shortest path back to the E-train took me up the west side and
then past the light memorial. Quite frankly, the lights do nothing
for me to evoke an image of the towers. The lights are insubstantial
and their footprint seems to be rather smaller than the base of the
towers were (although that might be psychological since the towers
were, after all, solid structures). And, of course, they look nothing
like the proposal which was on the designer's web site because (1)
they are insubstantial and not nearly so well defined, and (2) they
are a few blocks from the site so the skyline is hardly "restored" in
any sense of the word.
I am glad that at least they are being turned off after 11 PM. I can
only hope they get turned off permanently and something more
substantial is erected.
roland
--
PGP Key ID: 66 BC 3B CD
Roland B. Roberts, PhD RL Enterprises
rol...@rlenter.com 76-15 113th Street, Apt 3B
rol...@astrofoto.org Forest Hills, NY 11375
D. Couillard
Not the design of the memorial, but how the final decisions were made. I
have been under the impression that this was a temporary, 32 day display,
and that this project had public support. It almost appears as if that was
what was trotted out to the masses, but there was no real intention to
discontinue the lights any time soon. I certainly hope that is not the case.
I doubt that anyone would complain about a permanent non-pervasive memorial
in place of the light display, and that is what I believed the intentions
were.
I know from your posts that this is not an "astronomy" issue or "light
pollution" issue with you, and I hope that the real issues are brought into
public debate (they are probably already being debated...our papers don't
carry many stories on this subject).
I look forward to your posts on this subject. You've presented information
and insight that a lot of us have not seen before.
Sincerely,news:3C90860D...@att.net...