The Inquirer
>ntlworld.com
If the inquirer is so pro AMD64 and Linux why does it run on M$
servers?
Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP can anyone
tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
Cheers,
Pete - cheesed off with aptitude and Debian on his XP1000 and waiting
for Montagar.com to come back online so I can renew my hobbyist
license!
cheers,
Peter Watkinson
peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com
remove <nospam> to reply :-)
Craig A. Berry
peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:
>> Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP can anyone
> tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
No, because it is:
>ntlworld.com
Tell me this is HTML Open source?
Rick Jones
> If the inquirer is so pro AMD64 and Linux why does it run on M$
> servers?
Perhaphs they outsauce the web serving.
rick jones
--
denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, rebirth...
where do you want to be today?
these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)
feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Craig A. Berry
peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:31:54 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"
> <craig...@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote:
>
> >In article <4006feaf...@news.cable.ntlworld.com>,
> > peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:
> >
> >>> Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP can anyone
> >> tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
> >
> >No, because it is:
> >
> >http://www.php.net/license/
>
>
> Tell me this is HTML Open source?
Um, *what's* your question? You asked why the software package known
as PHP is not open source. I pointed out that it is, in fact, open
source and gave a reference to the license that dictates the terms
under which the source code may be used. That's what "open source"
generally means: the source code may be used, redistributed, modified,
or all of the above depending on the terms of the particular license.
In your new question, I don't know what "this" refers to (the PHP
package, the PHP license, the web page on which the license is
described?), and I have no idea what you mean by "HTML Open source".
David Froble
Looks like the question is whether HTML is an open source product. But HTML is
not a product, it's more of a language. There can be multiple products that
implement the language, and while I don't know if the HTML language is public
domain, it is implemented in browsers and I've never seen any mention of ownership.
Dave
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. Fax: 724-529-0596
DFE Ultralights, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Tim Llewellyn
David Froble wrote:
> >
>
> Looks like the question is whether HTML is an open source product. But HTML is
> not a product, it's more of a language. There can be multiple products that
> implement the language, and while I don't know if the HTML language is public
> domain, it is implemented in browsers and I've never seen any mention of ownership.
>
> Dave
CERN must be kicking themselves, if they'd patented and marketted html instead of
giving it away maybe they could have funded the LHC:-)
>ntlworld.com
<craig...@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote:
>In article <4007082f...@news.cable.ntlworld.com>,
> peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:31:54 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"
>> <craig...@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <4006feaf...@news.cable.ntlworld.com>,
>> > peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP can anyone
>> >> tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
>> >
>> >No, because it is:
>> >
>> >http://www.php.net/license/
>>
>>
>> Tell me this is HTML Open source?
>
>Um, *what's* your question? You asked why the software package known
>as PHP is not open source. I pointed out that it is, in fact, open
>source and gave a reference to the license that dictates the terms
>under which the source code may be used. That's what "open source"
>generally means: the source code may be used, redistributed, modified,
>or all of the above depending on the terms of the particular license.
>In your new question, I don't know what "this" refers to (the PHP
>package, the PHP license, the web page on which the license is
>described?), and I have no idea what you mean by "HTML Open source".
If you go to any web page written in HTML then using your browser you
can view the source of the HTML.
Now go to a page written in PHP can you view the source? Can you F**K
Not very open source is this PHP then is it?
cheers,
Bill Gunshannon
peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) writes:
>
>
> If the inquirer is so pro AMD64 and Linux why does it run on M$
> servers?
>
> Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP can anyone
> tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
You must be one of those people who thinks anything not infected with
the GNU Public Virus isn't OpenSource. All of the sources for PHP are
freely available.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Winfried Bergmann
"peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" <nospam> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:4007fa0...@news.cable.ntlworld.com...
Is that a joke? If not ...
I could write a compiler for an arbitrary language and put this to open
source. If you look at the binary for the target machine, compiled with that
"open source" tool, could you see the source of your code? I guess you
didn't get the idea behind the term "open source". Check www.opensource.org.
>ntlworld.com
Maybe I should make it simpler
write a web page in ASP (Active Server Pages) put it on a Microsoft OS
web server using IIS (Internet Information Server) 4/5 or whatever.
Now go to the url with whatever web browser your using. Now use view
source. You can see the HTML but can you see the embedded ASP
(Vbscript, javascript, perlscript or whatever) No. This is closed
source. Likewise the Microsoft Operating system, web server etc are
closed source.
Now accordingly why if PHP is "Open Source" why can't I view the Web
page source code with my web browser - not even Mozilla on what ever
flavour OS you like. Still doesn't sound very open source to me.
It's tough enough being a programmer at the moment anyway I'd much
rather get paid for just copying someone elses code ;-)
-Andy-
> If you go to any web page written in HTML then using your
> browser you can view the source of the HTML.
Sure. But that has nothing to do with "open source". That's
just how most html display programs ( aka web browsers)
work.
Someone could very easily write a program that displays a
document written using/in html that doesn't allow you to
access the source of the page.
If you are really feeling masochistic you can also view the
source for a MS Word or pdf document. Doesn't make THEM
open source.
> Now go to a page written in PHP can you view the source?
Sure you can. You can view the source of the OUTPUT
of the PHP. To view the source of the PHP that created the
html you'll have to have access to the system it is running
on.
But that's true of any server based CGI. You see the
results, not the engine that generates the results.
> Not very open source is this PHP then is it?
None of this is related to open source. Or VMS for that
matter. Unless the PHP license requires that anything
written in PHP be licensed as open source (I don't know,
haven't checked it's license), if PHP is open source all
you'll be able to do is see the source to the PHP
interpreter/compiler/whatever. Not to things written in
PHP.
-Andy-
Winfried Bergmann
> Maybe I should make it simpler
>
> write a web page in ASP (Active Server Pages) put it on a Microsoft OS
> web server using IIS (Internet Information Server) 4/5 or whatever.
>
> Now go to the url with whatever web browser your using. Now use view
> source. You can see the HTML but can you see the embedded ASP
> (Vbscript, javascript, perlscript or whatever) No. This is closed
> source. Likewise the Microsoft Operating system, web server etc are
> closed source.
>
> Now accordingly why if PHP is "Open Source" why can't I view the Web
> page source code with my web browser - not even Mozilla on what ever
> flavour OS you like. Still doesn't sound very open source to me.
>
> It's tough enough being a programmer at the moment anyway I'd much
> rather get paid for just copying someone elses code ;-)
I'm sorry, but english is not my native language, so maybe I didn't
understand your statement:
Do you claim PHP not being open source because you can't see the PHP source
code, when visiting a PHP generated web site?
Ken Farmer
news:4008031a...@news.cable.ntlworld.com...
PHP is used primarily to dynamically generate web pages pulling from a
database.
Want code, snippets, tutorials or articles?
PHP.net - Home of PHP
http://www.php.net
weberdev
http://www.weberdev.com/maincat.php3/106/PHP
PHPBuilder.com
http://www.phpbuilder.com
O'Reilly's OnLamp.com: PHP DevCenter
http://www.onlamp.com/php/
HotScripts.com: PHP
http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/index.html
Why PHP?
http://www.webdevelopersjournal.com/articles/why_php.html
7 Reasons Why PHP is Better than ASP
http://php.weblogs.com/php_asp_7_reasons
Site Navigation with PHP
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/templates/print_template.htmlt?meta=/webmonkey/99/25/index2a_meta.html
I use php to generate OpenVMS.org and I must say I love it. Being similar to
perl it was easy for me to just start coding it without a problem.
Hope that helps.
Ken
--
Kenneth Farmer <><
OpenVMS.org | dcl.OpenVMS.org
Wayne Sewell
>X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
>Subject: Re: The Inquirer
>Message-ID: <4007fa0...@news.cable.ntlworld.com>
>
>If you go to any web page written in HTML then using your browser you
>can view the source of the HTML.
>
Can you see the source code of the web server that served the html to you? Of
course not, but some web servers *are* open source, such as Apache.
As someone else said, you don't understand what open source means.
Wayne
===============================================================================
Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting (281)812-0738 wa...@tachysoft.com
http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html
===============================================================================
Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?"
Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?"
JF Mezei
> Now go to the url with whatever web browser your using. Now use view
> source. You can see the HTML but can you see the embedded ASP
> (Vbscript, javascript, perlscript or whatever) No. This is closed
> source.
One must think of HTML as nothing more than glorified VT100 escape sequences.
Your terminal (aka browser) can display the html source that has been sent to
you or it can execute it to provide the intended display. This is totally
unrelated to HOW the HTML was generated.
The web browser has abdolutely no idea nor any expectation of access to the
code on the server which generated the HTML. The tools can be open sources,
proprietary or simple text editors.
Paul Sture
Umm. Knowing that www.openvms.org is a PHP site, I visited it today, and
even using my ancient Netscape V3.03 on VMS, I could see whatever HTML
was generated for a given page.
Are you really asking that if someone writes dynamic pages using DCL,
COBOL, Ada, Perl or whatever, that you also want to see the source code
of those programs?
You are definitely not going to see that.
Or did I misunderstand your question?
--
Paul Sture
>ntlworld.com
In my limited understanding, and I didn't intend to start a flame war.
My point was if the web page was written in an open source language
then I should be able to see all the source code including the HTML
and all the PHP if that was what the page was written in. Including if
it's a database driven site the SQL statement and all the objects
and syntax etc...
I understand now that this is not possible with present cgi
technologies but since Apache produces PHP then I can't see how this
is impossible.
I know a lot of the PHP programmers would be up in arms about this but
I think that this is the whole ethos of "Open source" software people
can't pick and choose over where your source code is open or closed
source and still call it "Open source".
I guess all of sudden if this happened then a lot of companies paying
for people to write there web sites in this language wouldn't be very
happy if clones started appearing everywhere so they would have to
look for an alternative. But there could be still be benefits where
certain sites would benefit from being cloned, charities spring to
mind.
JF Mezei
> My point was if the web page was written in an open source language
> then I should be able to see all the source code including the HTML
> and all the PHP if that was what the page was written in. Including if
> it's a database driven site the SQL statement and all the objects
> and syntax etc...
So you want a bank to make available the source code to the progams that
execute your financial transactions and return the confirmation page in html ?
The PHP execution environment may be open source, but PHP programs you write
that execute in that environment aren't.
The GNU C compiler may be open source, but that doesn't make the C programs
that you compile with that compiler "open source".
You have to differentiate between the tool being open source, and the programs
you write that use that tool. Those are not open source by default.
> I understand now that this is not possible with present cgi
> technologies but since Apache produces PHP then I can't see how this
> is impossible.
Apache doesn't produce PHP. it passes http requests to the PHP environment
when the URL says it should, and the PHP environment then reads your
transaction from the TCPIP link and then writes whatever it wants back to the
TCPIP link (which goes to your browser). A PHP program could return a JPG
image. It need not return HTML.
> I guess all of sudden if this happened then a lot of companies paying
> for people to write there web sites in this language wouldn't be very
> happy if clones started appearing everywhere so they would have to
> look for an alternative.
When Earth finally meets the Vulcans in 2063 after having tested the Warp
drive, and the UN is upgraded to the United Federation of Planets, crime
eliminated, money no longer in use and humans strive only for the betterment
of humanity (or the universe), then perhaps all programs will become open source.
Piers
Ok, I feel I have to jump in here...
PHP is open source. This means, that the actual source code that makes
up the PHP language can be looked at, played around with etc. The same
as Apache. Software like the MS Windows family are closed source, as
you cannot view the source code that make sup the Operating System.
For a discussion on how PHP works (which may help to show why you
can't view the source code of PHP files) can be found here:
http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10265621
Hope this answers your questions..
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:31:54 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"
><craig...@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote:
>
>>In article <4006feaf...@news.cable.ntlworld.com>,
>> peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:
>>
>>>> Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP can anyone
>>> tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
>>
>>No, because it is:
>>
>>http://www.php.net/license/
>
>
>Tell me this is HTML Open source?
>
What is HTML Open Source ?
If you mean the ability to view the source as you would the source HTML of a
webpage from a web browser - then No since that is NOT what Open source means.
Practically the only things you can view in that manner are HTML and it's
associated scripting language JavaScript.
In general the source of CGI scripts themselves cannot be viewed from a webpage
the only source you can view is the HTML output generated by the CGI script.
The CGI script itself may be written using either an open source product -
PERL, PHP, Gnu C etc or a proprietary product DCL, Compaq C compiler,
Compaq C++ compiler etc
(I say "In general" above since a webpage can obviously point to a text file
containing the source code which the webserver will then render as an HTML page
if the author wishes to publish the source.)
David Webb
VMS and Unix team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University