A taste of the poll results... (and a little of a slam on WWater)
Steve Lane
" I love Whitewater from the bottom of my heart for two reasons which are
" really one reason in the end. The Vacation Jackpot is the whole game, and
" to get it you need to hit upwards of say...100 shots!!!!! Now THAT is a
" waizrd award! But the big reason I love whitewater so much lately is its
" really helped me practice ball control and shot-making. Because lets face
" it, if you miss any shot in Whitewater, you're basically up for grabs.
I don't think so. The 2 shots I aim for seem to be risk-free.
" I
" mean, if all you're playing for is score, sure it can get kind of boring.
I admit, I pretty much just play for score.
" The multiball is almost hideously easy (of course I say that after
" hitting, cout em, one jackpot at Pingolf last night) and thats where the
" real points are. But if you're playing for VJ, you have to play a very
" very tight controlled intentional game to even get close. And you have to
" hit every shot on the playfield multiple times.
I disagree with that big-time. To get VJ you have to get the locks,
class 6 river, all the whirlpool awards, and complete Wet Willie's.
The 1st 3 of those can be done by just shooting the 2 shots I
mentioned (although I seem to be draining at Class 5 River lately
a lot...), and I'm getting to Wet Willie's without aiming for
any more than the 2 shots. I dunno if it's from unintentional
Disaster Drop shots, whirlpool award or what. I do know I
regularly get to Wet Willie's without aiming for anything other
than the 2 shots.
Class 6 River is what keeps me from VJ.
" Because when I play in a non-competition setting, I play for VJ and
" nothing else. Try this sometime: get vacation jackpot lit before you
" start your first multiball.
Well, sure you'd have to aim for all the shots to do that.
" I;m sure someone out there has done it, but
" its a big challenge for me to nail No Way Out just right. Its an
" intricate fun game, and I find it a joy. I imagine many others here will
" say the same.
I find it a joy also. I just don't think it deserves to be
mentioned in the same breath as TZ, Shadow, TAF, and STTNG.
--
______________________________________________________________________
Steve Lane (st...@ncsu.edu) Check out my WWW page:
http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/s/smlane/WWW/steve.html
^ --> note the change in WWW server name!
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Malcolm Cleaton
sml...@unity.ncsu.edu "Steve Lane" writes:
> Saying that, I'll proceed to slightly trash WhiteWater. Don't
> get me wrong, I really like the game (it's in my top 20) but
> I can't believe it can be considered a top 5 game.
Oooh, you brute. I'll have to leap in and defend it then.
> The reason it that it's so damn EASY! Granted, I've probably
> played more games of it than any other game (I guesstimate
> 200 plays). My high is 3.1B, I've only gotten the Vacation
> Jackpot once, and never the 5X Vacation Jackpot (although
> a few 5X Triple Jackpots in the 3.1B game).
Yes, Whitewater is quite an easy game to keep the ball in play in. But
are you really bored with going for VJs after only getting it once?
> I average a little under 1B, and a typical game I'll aim
> for exactly *2* shots the entire game, No Way Out and
> Insanity Falls. I aim for Bigfoot Bluff of course but
> that's such an easy shot (95%?) that I'm not counting it.
Ah, I see, you're a Boulders man. Yes, I regard this as a weakness in
Whitewater's rules that by shooting Boulders over and over you collect
too many extra balls - although it does have modes on the way that stop
you for a little while. I've set mine to one extra ball per ball in play,
despite normally hating that setting, since I didn't want the most
successful strategy to be such a boring one.
> I never aim for the left or right orbits except to complete
> Wet Willie's. The ball goes through Boomerang Bend enough from
You mean Disaster Drop, right?
> missed No Way Out shots that I don't need to shoot for it to get
> the EB (never come close to the 2nd EB, which is at 60 Bends
> on my machine). I may shoot it a couple times a game to spot
> the Spine Chiller ramp or the orbits. I never shoot the Spine
> Chiller unless 5X is on and I'm not near multiball. I don't
> generally shoot for the relight kickback targets because
> with their small "sweet spot" I have about a 15% success rate
> of hitting a perticular target. I don't shoot the EB target
> unless I'm on ball 3 and not near multiball; I just let
> a ball hit it during MB. And of course I never shoot for the
> RIVER targets, the Gold Mine, or the hotfoot targets. That leaves
> me with 2 shots I aim for throughout the game, a couple I aim
> for twice or so during a game, and a few more I aim for once in a game.
Well hey, whose fault is that, then? There are plenty of shots there, you
just don't want to shoot any of them.
> Compare that to TZ. In a typical game I aim for *9* shots:
> both ramps, the right and left (a little less) orbits, the lock
> shot, the piano, the camera, the clock target and the powerfield (which I
> consider a shot). I don't generally aim for the slot machine because the
> piano is easier and safer for me, and the dead-end shot is just too
> hard *and* dangerous. Given all this and that while the art and
> sound are terrific on WWater, the art, display and sound on TZ
> are even better; maybe the best of any game except maybe STTNG.
I'm not going to be able to argue particularly here, since I love TZ as
well. It's a very different game from Whitewater, though.
Do you really count the right ramp as two shots because of the diverter?
Why isn't Bigfoot's Bluff two shots then? Isn't the Camera on TZ as
easy a shot as the Bluff on Whitewater? I find it so, from a nicely fed
ball (and the Bluff on Whitewater isn't easy either if the ball is screaming
round from the Spine Chiller). It seems to me that if you use the same
scheme as you've used for TZ your count of shots for Whitewater should be
four, not two.
> I suppose the difficulty of getting the 5X Vacation Jackpot
> makes that particular shot one of the best in pinball but
> I think having the jackpot increase from game to game throws
> a huge element of luck into your score if you *do* get it.
You what, sorry? The VJ isn't multiplied by 5 on newer ROMs, starts at
200M and very rarely gets above 250M (it takes 5000 games to get that
high).
> Luck isn't something I like in pinball machines.
There's more luck in what the Camera starts on in TZ.
> My personal pick for the all-time best game, Shadow, has *8*
> shots I aim for regularly; the 2 ramps, the battlefield popper,
> the battlefield itself, the extra ball shot, the lock, the Khan
> saucer, and the orbits (I count them as one shot since I aim
> for them about 1/2 as much as the other shots).
Good for you. When I play Whitewater I aim for, well, it depends if you
count No Way Out clean, No Way Out off right lock target and No Way Out
off left lock target as three shots, I guess. That would make it, well,
those three, six other hazards (yes, I shoot for them all), Bigfoot's
Hotfoot targets (yes, I go for them too) and the extra ball shot. So I
guess I can count anything from 9 upwards.
I don't mean to sound nasty, and I'm glad you've found enjoyable strategies
on your favourite tables that employ lots of shots, but I just want to get
across the point that it's possible to play Whitewater like this too, and
possible to play TZ very boringly (I've played games where I go Left Ramp,
Slot Machine, repeat). I've not played enough Shadow to talk about that.
> I rank Shadow barely ahead of TZ because of its art, dots and
> soundtrack, which are the best of any game I've played. Although
> the scoring balance of these 2 games is the best of all the games,
> I seem to be more consistent score-wise on Shadow, so I think
> your score on Shadow more accurately reflects how well you
> played. This may be because TZ is so damn hard (which is a
> *huge* plus for me; I get more satisfaction out of getting
> the HS on TZ more than on any other game, if the competition
> on the machine is good (i.e. HS's over 3B)).
>
> Of course all this comes from my postulates for rating a game
> "good" or "bad". The most important factors for me are
> scoring balance (your score accurately reflects how well you played),
> shots (there needs to be several that are important to make many times
> in a game, they should be fun to make, and at least somewhat
> difficult to make (under a 60-70% success rate for me),
> an interesting rule set (I prefer, as I think most of you do,
> a rule set that is deep and complex without being arcane,
> and makes sense logically. A lot of this shows up in the
> "scoring balance" factor. I also want a rule set to be difficult
> to find the best strategy for), and art, sound, and dots (all
> in one category).
>
> WWater does great on scoring balance and art/sound/dots,
> but fails miserably on shots (only 2 shots worth aiming for,
> and only the Insanity Falls is fun, granted it's *enormously*
> fun) and fails slightly on rules (making the 2 shots
> the only thing you have to shoot for).
But your score can gain enormously from adding other shots. You can get the
high score on TZ just by shooting the Left Ramp if you're accurate and have
a lot of patience, but that doesn't mean none of the other shots matter.
When I play for Boulders, which I have done, my Jackpots tend to be much
lower than when I've gone for some rafts directly (sure, you get one raft
each time round, but if you never shoot the orbits and only rarely Disaster
Drop, well, it would take three or four times around the Boulders to reach
Wet Willies).
<snip>
> I'm interested to see if anyone can defend WWater against
> my charges, namely that I don't understand how it can
> be in same league as Shadow, TZ, TAF, and STTNG for the best
> games of all time. Granted I'm a newbie as far as serious
> pinball playing (10 months now) but not in terms of amount
> of games played (see my next post) or skill (relying on
> the tiny amount of data from PAPA 5 and the HS tables in
> Raleigh.
I find Whitewater very interesting and great fun to play. But then I
found Police Force very interesting and great fun to play, despite the
fact that the undeniably most effective strategy for getting high scores
was completely boring. If the only thing you can play for is points, and
a table having a single strategy that works too well completely spoils
it for you, see if you can get one set to one extra ball per ball in play,
as I've found that that makes those Boulders worth a lot less to get over
and over. If not, well, just try to go away thinking of Whitewater as a
game which is slightly different and didn't suit you, not a boring one.
> Please don't be mad at me if you're a WhiteWater lover;
Grrrrr! ;)
> I'm genuinely curious to see if anyone can answer my arguments.
> I certainly don't hate the game; it's definitely in my top-20
> list and it was after all the game that got me started playing
> seriously. I have a special love for it for that reason.
> But I can't understand how it can be considered among the
> best games of all time.
Well hey, a lot of people consider it that way, so go figure ;) Not
every game clicks with every player, I guess, that's all.
--
Cookie
Steve Lane
I have to make my own, and start compilin'. ETA for the results:
Monday.
There's gonna be lots of surprises, I think. A big one seems
to be WhiteWater. I'm not sure if it was eligible in the last
poll but I'm curious to see how it did if it was eligible.
Saying that, I'll proceed to slightly trash WhiteWater. Don't
get me wrong, I really like the game (it's in my top 20) but
I can't believe it can be considered a top 5 game.
The reason it that it's so damn EASY! Granted, I've probably
played more games of it than any other game (I guesstimate
200 plays). My high is 3.1B, I've only gotten the Vacation
Jackpot once, and never the 5X Vacation Jackpot (although
a few 5X Triple Jackpots in the 3.1B game).
I average a little under 1B, and a typical game I'll aim
for exactly *2* shots the entire game, No Way Out and
Insanity Falls. I aim for Bigfoot Bluff of course but
that's such an easy shot (95%?) that I'm not counting it.
I never aim for the left or right orbits except to complete
Wet Willie's. The ball goes through Boomerang Bend enough from
missed No Way Out shots that I don't need to shoot for it to get
the EB (never come close to the 2nd EB, which is at 60 Bends
on my machine). I may shoot it a couple times a game to spot
the Spine Chiller ramp or the orbits. I never shoot the Spine
Chiller unless 5X is on and I'm not near multiball. I don't
generally shoot for the relight kickback targets because
with their small "sweet spot" I have about a 15% success rate
of hitting a perticular target. I don't shoot the EB target
unless I'm on ball 3 and not near multiball; I just let
a ball hit it during MB. And of course I never shoot for the
RIVER targets, the Gold Mine, or the hotfoot targets. That leaves
me with 2 shots I aim for throughout the game, a couple I aim
for twice or so during a game, and a few more I aim for once in a game.
Compare that to TZ. In a typical game I aim for *9* shots:
both ramps, the right and left (a little less) orbits, the lock
shot, the piano, the camera, the clock target and the powerfield (which I
consider a shot). I don't generally aim for the slot machine because the
piano is easier and safer for me, and the dead-end shot is just too
hard *and* dangerous. Given all this and that while the art and
sound are terrific on WWater, the art, display and sound on TZ
are even better; maybe the best of any game except maybe STTNG.
I suppose the difficulty of getting the 5X Vacation Jackpot
makes that particular shot one of the best in pinball but
I think having the jackpot increase from game to game throws
a huge element of luck into your score if you *do* get it.
Luck isn't something I like in pinball machines.
My personal pick for the all-time best game, Shadow, has *8*
shots I aim for regularly; the 2 ramps, the battlefield popper,
the battlefield itself, the extra ball shot, the lock, the Khan
saucer, and the orbits (I count them as one shot since I aim
for them about 1/2 as much as the other shots).
I rank Shadow barely ahead of TZ because of its art, dots and
Only TAF (excels in all 4 categories except for a slight scoring
imbalance with Tour the Mansion and a moderate shot inbalance
with having to shoot the Electric Chair so much), STTNG
(best shot set of any game; not as many as TZ but they're terrfically
fun, huge scoring imbalance, fun and interesting and definitely
complex rules if unbalanced, arguably best art/dots/sound combo)
and possibly DM (great in every area except maybe a lack of
*really* fun shots) rival TZ and Shadow for best-game honors.
I'm interested to see if anyone can defend WWater against
my charges, namely that I don't understand how it can
be in same league as Shadow, TZ, TAF, and STTNG for the best
games of all time. Granted I'm a newbie as far as serious
pinball playing (10 months now) but not in terms of amount
of games played (see my next post) or skill (relying on
the tiny amount of data from PAPA 5 and the HS tables in
Raleigh.
Please don't be mad at me if you're a WhiteWater lover;
I'm genuinely curious to see if anyone can answer my arguments.
I certainly don't hate the game; it's definitely in my top-20
list and it was after all the game that got me started playing
seriously. I have a special love for it for that reason.
But I can't understand how it can be considered among the
best games of all time.
Later, Steve
Greg Dunlap
Steve Lane <sml...@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>With Bill's votes the poll is now pretty much officially closed.
>I have to make my own, and start compilin'. ETA for the results:
>Monday.
>get me wrong, I really like the game (it's in my top 20) but
>I can't believe it can be considered a top 5 game.
>
>The reason it that it's so damn EASY! Granted, I've probably
>played more games of it than any other game (I guesstimate
>200 plays). My high is 3.1B, I've only gotten the Vacation
>Jackpot once, and never the 5X Vacation Jackpot (although
>a few 5X Triple Jackpots in the 3.1B game).
I love Whitewater from the bottom of my heart for two reasons which are
really one reason in the end. The Vacation Jackpot is the whole game, and
to get it you need to hit upwards of say...100 shots!!!!! Now THAT is a
waizrd award! But the big reason I love whitewater so much lately is its
really helped me practice ball control and shot-making. Because lets face
it, if you miss any shot in Whitewater, you're basically up for grabs. I
mean, if all you're playing for is score, sure it can get kind of boring.
The multiball is almost hideously easy (of course I say that after
hitting, cout em, one jackpot at Pingolf last night) and thats where the
real points are. But if you're playing for VJ, you have to play a very
very tight controlled intentional game to even get close. And you have to
hit every shot on the playfield multiple times. I like it a lot for that,
and playing it a lot has honestly helped me more than in any other game.
Because when I play in a non-competition setting, I play for VJ and
nothing else. Try this sometime: get vacation jackpot lit before you
start your first multiball. I;m sure someone out there has done it, but
its a big challenge for me to nail No Way Out just right. Its an
intricate fun game, and I find it a joy. I imagine many others here will
say the same.
GDD