Does SCO have a case
WileElmo
school district got cold feet after being shown headlines about Linux
being a pirated OS. Result, we now have seven thousand copies of XP to
load, rather than the small pile of Red Hat that we bought in the summer.
Searching all over the web, I am astounded at how many opinions there are
on the subject and how few facts. Most of them are from Linux techies who
laugh at the claims of SCO and point out SCO is going to be pounded into
the ground - reminds me of the story of the grasshoppers deciding to get
rid of the elephants. Like listening to the wind - it may be pleasant,
but it tells you nothing.
Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
subject? Such as, is there any slightest, unbelievably remote, 10 million
to 1, blue sky, lottery winning possibility that SCO is right? I can't go
before a school board and say that Joe, down the street, has used Linux
for years, knows all about it, has two PCs with Linux and he really likes
it and says that SCO is wrong.
Opinions are welcome and I agree with most of them, but I need some facts.
(However, I realise that there may not be any available - after all, if I
suddenly claim to own the land under New York city, I obviously can't
prove anything, but the courts may take years to chuck my claim out while
all along making people nervous about purchasing any real estate there.)
If the powers that be (IBM, Red Hat, Suse, etc) sit on this much longer,
the big recent burst of momentum is going to coast to a stop.
WE
John Hasler
> Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
> subject?
http://www.osdl.org/docs/osdl_eben_moglen_position_paper.pdf
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Bob Tennent
> Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
> subject?
http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/pub/Main/SCOvsIBMReferences/
RH-Declaratory-Judgment.txt
WileElmo
> WileElmo writes:
>> Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
>> subject?
>
> http://www.osdl.org/docs/osdl_eben_moglen_position_paper.pdf
Thanks
Very interesting. However, he is on the side of the angels so it must be
looked at in that regard. Although, I guess that if a legal eagle knows
nothing about open source then his/her opinion is fairly useless.
WE
WileElmo
---------------------
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /twiki/pub/Main/SCOvsIBMReferences/ on
this server.
---------------------
Alas, it appears that this unworthy one must wait for another missive.
Bob Tennent
>>
>> > Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
>> > subject?
>>
>> http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/pub/Main/SCOvsIBMReferences/
>> RH-Declaratory-Judgment.txt
>
> ---------------------
> this server.
> ---------------------
>
> Alas, it appears that this unworthy one must wait for another missive.
The URL was split across two lines because it was too long. Append the
file name.
Stefan Patric
> So far, it would appear that SCO's scare tactics are working. Our
> local school district got cold feet after being shown headlines
> about Linux being a pirated OS. Result, we now have seven thousand
> copies of XP to load, rather than the small pile of Red Hat that we
> bought in the summer.
Red Hat wasn't named in SCO's lawsuit.
> Searching all over the web, I am astounded at how many opinions
> there are
> on the subject and how few facts. Most of them are from Linux
> techies who laugh at the claims of SCO and point out SCO is going to
> be pounded into the ground - reminds me of the story of the
> grasshoppers deciding to get
> rid of the elephants. Like listening to the wind - it may be
> pleasant, but it tells you nothing.
Have you tried reading the business and/or technology sections of
major newspapers? Just today, it was report in my little hometown
paper (the business section), that Red Hat has filed a complaint
against SCO.
Also check technical and business magazines, both paper and online,
like Forbes, eweek, zdnet, etc. I did a quick search for "sco" on
www.zdnet.com and got 6 to 10 reports covering the past 2 or 3 weeks
specifically on the lawsuit.
> Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
> subject? Such as, is there any slightest, unbelievably remote, 10
> million
> to 1, blue sky, lottery winning possibility that SCO is right? I
> can't go before a school board and say that Joe, down the street,
> has used Linux for years, knows all about it, has two PCs with Linux
> and he really likes it and says that SCO is wrong.
Anything said by anybody -- legal scholar, Linux techie, CEO --
relating to such things would be mere speculation. And worthless.
> Opinions are welcome and I agree with most of them, but I need some
> facts. (However, I realise that there may not be any available -
> after all, if I suddenly claim to own the land under New York city,
> I obviously can't prove anything, but the courts may take years to
> chuck my claim out while all along making people nervous about
> purchasing any real estate there.)
The Facts?
Fact: SCO is suing IBM for intellectual property infringement on
what SCO CLAIMS to be THEIRS.
Fact: Whether that is TRUE remains to be PROVED.
> If the powers that be (IBM, Red Hat, Suse, etc) sit on this much
> longer, the big recent burst of momentum is going to coast to a
> stop.
It's going to get worse, before it gets better. This will go to a
full-blown, knock-down, drag-out trial. IBM won't settle: To do so,
would be like an admission that they did steal SCO's code.
--
Stefan Patric
too...@yahoo.com
WileElmo
> >> http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/pub/Main/SCOvsIBMReferences/
> >> RH-Declaratory-Judgment.txt
Yeah, I noticed that about the time I posted the message.
Anyway, an interesting article. For a legal document it is surprisingly
readable.
RaSta-G
There is an article in the Australian financial Review (6 August 2003 pg 47)
website http://www.afr.com/it
"Red Hat's suit asks for an injunction against what it claims is false
advertising and deceptive trade practices by SCO...."
"SCO said it aimed to alerted to users to "the risks of running an operating
system that is an unauthorised derivative of Unix", the technological
ancestor of linux, and that "carries with it no warranty or
indemnification"".
"Red hat is trying to force SCO to specify the parts of linux it claims
infringe its copyrights... Red hat executives said that they had not been
able to examine SCO's code because of non disclosure agreements required by
SCO.
Red Hat says it has no plans to indemnify its customers against legal action
by SCO."
Hope this is of some benefit to you.
P.s Do you know how I can partition using partition druid? I currently have
one NTFS partition I wish to splitt it into one NTFS and one linux
partition.
RaSta-G
Aug 06
David Bank and Don Clark | Wall St Journal
Red Hat, a leading distributor of the Linux operating system, is seeking a
US Federal court ruling that its open-source software does not infringe
copyrights or trade secrets claimed by SCO Group.
Red Hat's suit against SCO is the first formal counter-attack by
distributors of Linux against SCO's attempt to collect licensing fees,
potentially totalling billions of dollars, from users of the software. Red
Hat also established a million-dollar legal fund to help other open-source
developers and distributors fight SCO's efforts.
SCO Group, formerly Caldera International, angered the Linux community in
March when it sued IBM, alleging IBM had transferred trade secrets to Linux
and violated a joint development contract. Last month SCO said it planned to
seek licensing fees from Linux users.
Red Hat has not been named in SCO's litigation, but Matthew Szulik, Red
Hat's chief executive officer, said Red Hat was responding to SCO's public
comments about the company's use of Linux. In particular, he cited SCO's
July 22 briefing for institutional investors where he said SCO made
"misleading" comments about possible copyright infringement by Red Hat.
SCO's claims were "a substantial threat to open-source," Mr Szulik said in a
news conference in San Francisco, where a Linux trade show is under way. He
said some customers had delayed or cancelled planned software purchases. Red
Hat's suit asks for an injunction against what it claims is false
advertising and deceptive trade practices by SCO.
In a letter to Mr Szulik on Monday, SCO chief executive Darl McBride said he
was surprised by the lawsuit and said SCO's response "will likely include
counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy". SCO said it aimed
to alerted users to "the risks of running an operating system that is an
unauthorised derivative of Unix", the technological ancestor of Linux, and
that "carries with it no warranty or indemnification".
Red Hat is trying to force SCO to specify the parts of Linux it claims
infringe its copyrights. SCO has showed some of its code to outside parties,
but Red Hat executives said they had not been able to examine SCO's code
because of nondisclosure agreements required by SCO. Red Hat says it has no
plans to indemnify its customers against legal action by SCO.
SCO's legal actions have caused turmoil for some technology companies which
rely heavily on Linux. IBM said Red Hat had not consulted it before filing
the lawsuit.
David
>
> P.s Do you know how I can partition using partition druid? I currently have
> one NTFS partition I wish to splitt it into one NTFS and one linux
> partition.
NTFS is an M$ proprietary filesystem. I don't think DiskDruid can
partition NTFS.
Here are a couple of possible tools to partition NTFS partitions.
I have never used them so be sure to read to see which one sounds
like the best and safest one to use.
Partition resizer.
http://www.zeleps.com/
Ranish Partition manager
http://www.ranish.com/part/
Bootit
http://www.bootitng.com/
--
Confucius: He who play in root, eventually kill tree.
Registered with The Linux Counter. http://counter.li.org/
Slackware 9.0 Kernel 2.4.21 i686 (GCC) 3.3
Uptime: 1 day, 1:34, 1 user, load average: 2.06, 1.51, 1.31
Peter Jensen
> So far, it would appear that SCO's scare tactics are working. Our
> local school district got cold feet after being shown headlines about
> Linux being a pirated OS.
Do they always let major decisions be guided by the popular media? Good
thing I don't work there ...
Also, who exactly showed them those headlines? It wouldn't by any
chance be sales representatives from Microsoft, would it?
> Result, we now have seven thousand copies of XP to load, rather than
> the small pile of Red Hat that we bought in the summer.
*Seven* *thousand* copies of XP?!? Even with all the discounts, this
will get *really* expensive. Not consulting a bit of *real* legal aid
first is somewhat foolish. We're not talking about a small investment
here.
Anyway, ask a lawyer if an end user can ever be held responsible for the
actions of the distributor. I'm pretty sure the answer will be no,
because you acted in good faith. Also, they can't actually demand any
money without proving *something* (and I don't think a NDA would be
valid in this case).
In the *very* unlikely case that they do have a leg to stand on, the
offending code will be removed and rewritten from scratch in a matter of
days, at most. Then you just upgrade your kernel and give SCO the
finger :-)
--
PeKaJe
Absence makes the heart grow frantic.
wb
I have access to SVR3( which AIX was derived from, but appears
nothing like the original !!! I worked on AIX) , SVR4,
UnixWare 2.0x and 2.4 Linux kernel
source and I don't see any comparsions wrt SMP implementation
as SCO have claimed.I'd like to see what they are actually
comparing. 2.4 kernels don't even offer any SMP management tools.
John Hasler
> Anything said by anybody -- legal scholar, Linux techie, CEO -- relating
> to such things would be mere speculation. And worthless.
I don't consider the opinions of respected legal scholars on legal matters
worthless.
> Fact: SCO is suing IBM for intellectual property infringement on what SCO
> CLAIMS to be THEIRS.
No. They are suing IBM for breach of contract (though the complaint may be
amended).
> This will go to a full-blown, knock-down, drag-out trial.
It could be a very short trial, if IBM comes up with the right evidence.
David Oxlade
> RaSta-G wrote:
>
>>
>> P.s Do you know how I can partition using partition druid? I currently
>> have
>> one NTFS partition I wish to splitt it into one NTFS and one linux
>> partition.
>
>
> NTFS is an M$ proprietary filesystem. I don't think DiskDruid can
> partition NTFS.
>
> Here are a couple of possible tools to partition NTFS partitions. I have
> never used them so be sure to read to see which one sounds like the best
> and safest one to use.
>
> Partition resizer.
> http://www.zeleps.com/
>
> Ranish Partition manager
> http://www.ranish.com/part/
>
> Bootit
> http://www.bootitng.com/
>
I've used Bootit a few times on a handful of computers and I haven't had
any troubles at all...
Dave
Ergo Sum
> Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
> subject? Such as, is there any slightest, unbelievably remote, 10 million
> to 1, blue sky, lottery winning possibility that SCO is right? I can't go
> before a school board and say that Joe, down the street, has used Linux
> for years, knows all about it, has two PCs with Linux and he really likes
> it and says that SCO is wrong.
Someone pointed out to me that LinuxTAG had taken legal action in Germany
against SCO for "engaging in unfair competitive practices". They have
received a temporary restraining order against SCO, banning them from
advertising or claiming any risk to users of the OS in regard to violation
of copyright laws.
http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1012947.html
RedHat Linux has also made a legal motion against SCO for "making
unsubstantiated and untrue public statements attacking Red Hat Linux and
the integrity of the open-source software development process".
http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-5059547.html
Eben Moglen, the attorney for the Free Software Foundation (FSF), has
published a statement contesting the claims made by SCO.
"Users asked to take a license from SCO on the basis of alleged copyright
infringement by the distributors of the Linux kernel have a right to ask
some tough questions. First, what s the evidence of infringement? What has
been copied from SCO copyrighted work? Second, why do I need a copyright
license to use the work, regardless of who holds copyright to each part of
it? Third, didn t you distribute this work yourself, under a license that
allows everyone, including me, to copy, modify and distribute freely? When
I downloaded a copy of the work from your FTP site, and you gave me the
source code and a copy of the GPL, do you mean that you weren t licensing
me all of that source code under GPL, to the extent that it was yours to
license? Asking those questions will help firms decide how to evaluate SCO
s demands. I hope we shall soon hear some answers."
http://www.osdl.org/docs/osdl_eben_moglen_position_paper.pdf
http://news.com.com/2100-1016-5058297.html
The Open Source Initiative (OSI), a non-profit association and one of the
principal advocacy organizations of the open-source community, has also
published a white paper contesting the claims made by SCO.
http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html
And IBM CEO has stood by Linux, insisting that any SCO claim to this date is
unfounded, and that they cannot collect any license fee based on *unproven*
allegations.
"This appears to be another desperate, unfair and unsupported attack on
Linux in an attempt to wring money from customers without providing any
factual basis as to why they should pay," Samson said. "SCO's statements
consist of bare allegations without supporting facts. SCO has yet to
identify the code which it claims is infringing in Linux, nor has it
offered to openly disclose the code to the Linux community."
http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5055061.html
.................................................
When these many high profile players dismiss the SCO claim, I think most
end-users should just relax and wait for the SCO bubble to burst. Would SCO
try any legal action against the end-user, chances are courts will either
dismiss them or put them on hold until the IBM case is settled.
The noise and rattle around the SCO claims are day to day more distinctively
heard as a scare tactics to discredit Linux and the Open Source community.
I wish you end up installing Linux in the computers under your supervision,
and lead by the example by not surrendering to these unsubstantiated
allegations.
Cheers.
--
Cogito ergo sum
Ken
Reading one of the posts triggered a chron process with me.
In the unlikely case of this SCO crap running the full course and the
unanimous Supreme Court, backed up by an advisory board of Angels, and
Moses himself, deciding that SCO owns Linux, and everybody (you and me)
must immediately cut a check for every copy of Linux we ever downloaded...
There is no way that the rest of the world is going to give a plugged
nickle for the judgement. Germany, for instance, is not going to meekly
format all of their drives and purchase 10 million copies of XP rather
than go against a decree from this country. Neither are they going to
send SCO several billion dollars for software.
No matter what, it is just a matter of time before the rest of the world
is Linux, some for reasons of money (Mexico), and others (Germany, France)
because of anti-Americanism, or both.
Ken
Davorin Vlahovic
> No matter what, it is just a matter of time before the rest of the world
> is Linux, some for reasons of money (Mexico), and others (Germany, France)
> because of anti-Americanism, or both.
Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
--
Dammit, how many times do I have to tell you? FIRST you rape, THEN you
pillage!!
atec_77
saying yup / Ill do as Im told :_)
--
Unix Rules... help your mates and introduce them.
John Hasler
> Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
> anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
You are, unfortunately and sadly, wrong. There is plenty of bigotry in the
world and some of it is directed against citizens of th USA.
pbs
[snip]
> system that is an unauthorised derivative of Unix", the technological
UNIX is not the technological ancestor of linux.
Ken
> In article <pan.2003.08.06....@nowhere.com>, Ken wrote:
>> No matter what, it is just a matter of time before the rest of the
>> world is Linux, some for reasons of money (Mexico), and others
>> (Germany, France) because of anti-Americanism, or both.
>
> Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
> anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
Uh... I don't think you have been to Europe lately. Actually, it is kind
of odd (as well as off topic) but people I meet over there almost always
like individual Americans, but hate this nebulous idea they have of
Americanism. Most of their ideas are laughable (If you are from Texas,
you have oil wells in your yard and are rich, from California, you are
gay, from New York... well, that is the only states they can name).
Actually, I think the underlying currents are like our feeling about
Microsoft now, or IBM a couple of decades ago - if you are rich and
powerful, especially if overwhelmingly so, you are resented. A natural
effect of society.
MM
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:53:36 +0000, Davorin Vlahovic wrote:
>> In article <pan.2003.08.06....@nowhere.com>, Ken wrote:
>>> No matter what, it is just a matter of time before the rest of the
>>> world is Linux, some for reasons of money (Mexico), and others
>>> (Germany, France) because of anti-Americanism, or both.
>>
>> Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
>> anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
>
> Uh... I don't think you have been to Europe lately.
I somehow suspect that he has.
> Actually, it is kind
> of odd (as well as off topic) but people I meet over there almost always
> like individual Americans, but hate this nebulous idea they have of
> Americanism. Most of their ideas are laughable (If you are from Texas,
> you have oil wells in your yard and are rich, from California, you are
> gay, from New York... well, that is the only states they can name).
Such laughable ideas work in both directions, of course. I've met
Americans (in America) who've thought that London and England are one
and the same ... or who've asked questions like, "So, do/did you know
Princess Di?" and so on. Hell, one even approached me on the boardwalk
in Atlantic City, NJ and asked (whilst pointng to a vast expanse of water),
"So, is that the Atlantic Ocean?"
MM
Stefan Patric
> Stefan Patric writes:
>> Anything said by anybody -- legal scholar, Linux techie, CEO --
>> relating
>> to such things would be mere speculation. And worthless.
>
> I don't consider the opinions of respected legal scholars on legal
> matters worthless.
>
>> Fact: SCO is suing IBM for intellectual property infringement on
>> what SCO CLAIMS to be THEIRS.
>
> No. They are suing IBM for breach of contract (though the complaint
> may be amended).
I only know what I read in the paper. I've never bothered to read
the actual brief.
According to reports:
"SCO contends that IBM, the world's largest computer company,
introduced proprietary code from Unix into AIX, its own version of
the platform, and later into Linux, an open-source software that can
be copied and modified freely."
(http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techinvestor/2003-06-30-sco-goes-on_x.htm)
>> This will go to a full-blown, knock-down, drag-out trial.
>
> It could be a very short trial, if IBM comes up with the right
> evidence.
Usually lawsuits of this type take 2 to 3 years to go to trial, if
there's no settlement, first, which I think there won't be.
PS. SCO did virtually the same thing to Microsoft a few years ago
involving infringement on a DOS OS, the rights of which they had
purchased. Microsoft settled for $250 million.
ibid
This is also interesting reading:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/kevinmaney/2003-07-30-maney_x.htm
--
Stefan Patric
too...@yahoo.com
atec_77
same old same old
--
John Hasler
> I only know what I read in the paper. I've never bothered to read the
> actual brief.
I have.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Davorin Vlahovic
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:53:36 +0000, Davorin Vlahovic wrote:
>
>> In article <pan.2003.08.06....@nowhere.com>, Ken wrote:
>>> No matter what, it is just a matter of time before the rest of the
>>> world is Linux, some for reasons of money (Mexico), and others
>>> (Germany, France) because of anti-Americanism, or both.
>>
>> Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
>> anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
>
> Uh... I don't think you have been to Europe lately.
Um, okay, do you know where Croatia is? Find Italy, then Adriatic sea,
and then you'll see Croatia. It's the most beautiful country in the
world that has it all (except for intelligent leadership).
It has the cleanest sea, 1400 islands, endemic species of plants and wild l
ife (it's the only place in Europe where you can find dark bear and a lot
of other animals I don't think you have names of...)
1/4 of all people live in the capital of Zagreb, so most of the land is
unused and is a real natural beauty.
It's one of few places in the world where you can drink tap water ;)))
> Actually, it is kind
> of odd (as well as off topic) but people I meet over there almost always
> like individual Americans, but hate this nebulous idea they have of
> Americanism.
;)))
> Most of their ideas are laughable (If you are from Texas,
> you have oil wells in your yard and are rich, from California, you are
> gay, from New York... well, that is the only states they can name).
Hmm, who have you been talking with? :)))
> Actually, I think the underlying currents are like our feeling about
> Microsoft now, or IBM a couple of decades ago - if you are rich and
> powerful, especially if overwhelmingly so, you are resented. A natural
> effect of society.
Well, I just hope you in California will be better off when Schwartzenegger
becomes the governer ;)))
You'd be surprised how people in Europe are not ignorant about the U.S.
But, okay, I must admit one thing. I don't like how american-english is
pushed via lot of U.S. products (movies, music, mcdonalds and so on), because
most of people here are starting to use a mix of croatian and english
:(((
Davorin Vlahovic
>> Uh... I don't think you have been to Europe lately.
>
> I somehow suspect that he has.
Check the answer I gave him...If you're speaking of Britons and French,
the rest of Europe isn't like them....We don't give a damn what happens
with oil in Iraq...we have our own (oops, you're not going to attack us,
are you? ;))))
> Such laughable ideas work in both directions, of course. I've met
> Americans (in America) who've thought that London and England are one
> and the same ... or who've asked questions like, "So, do/did you know
> Princess Di?" and so on. Hell, one even approached me on the boardwalk
> in Atlantic City, NJ and asked (whilst pointng to a vast expanse of water),
> "So, is that the Atlantic Ocean?"
The Brit did this? Or another american?
Davorin Vlahovic
> Davorin Vlahovic writes:
>> Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
>> anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
>
> You are, unfortunately and sadly, wrong. There is plenty of bigotry in the
> world and some of it is directed against citizens of th USA.
If so, not without reason. But, believe me, nobody hates all Americans per
se...
There are some individuals that make life miserable for the rest of us
(I have an example. Here in Croatia, there is something that is called
the Wall of pain. It is built of red and black bricks, and each brick
has a name of dead or missing person in our war. Less than hundred
meters away is UN station, where US soldiers are stationed. A
drunk soldier kicked and destroyed a part of the wall twice in one
month. He could not be sanctioned, because "He's an American citizen",
and "We have nothing to do with it" (altough he got videotaped). It was
a hard blow on us, but I don't hate Americans. For instance, what would
you think of a nation whose small group destroyed your Statue of
liberty, or well, Twin towers (and noone got hurt)?)
I don't hate Americans, I speak to a lot of them every day, and see that
they're just people like me (but don't like Linux as much ;)) They
rather use Windoze or MacOS ;))).
Ergo Sum
> Um, okay, do you know where Croatia is? Find Italy, then Adriatic sea,
> and then you'll see Croatia. It's the most beautiful country in the
> world that has it all (except for intelligent leadership).
This applies better to most american countries, faulty leadership included.
;)
Cheers
--
Cogito ergo sum
Peter T. Breuer
> In article <pan.2003.08.07....@nowhere.com>, Ken wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:53:36 +0000, Davorin Vlahovic wrote:
>>
>>> In article <pan.2003.08.06....@nowhere.com>, Ken wrote:
>>>> No matter what, it is just a matter of time before the rest of the
>>>> world is Linux, some for reasons of money (Mexico), and others
>>>> (Germany, France) because of anti-Americanism, or both.
>>>
>>> Don't be ridiculous, nobody is anti-american....maybe
>>> anti-some-decisions, but not anti-american.
>>
>> Uh... I don't think you have been to Europe lately.
> Um, okay, do you know where Croatia is? Find Italy, then Adriatic sea,
> and then you'll see Croatia. It's the most beautiful country in the
> world that has it all (except for intelligent leadership).
> It has the cleanest sea, 1400 islands, endemic species of plants and wild l
Well, Greece has all that and more. Cleaner seas too.
> ife (it's the only place in Europe where you can find dark bear and a lot
Bears are up in the spanish mountains somewhere, I'm pretty sure.
> of other animals I don't think you have names of...)
"tourists".
> 1/4 of all people live in the capital of Zagreb, so most of the land is
> unused and is a real natural beauty.
Yah .. I must go some day. The problem is that I doubt there's anywhere
to stay! One needs some kind of a tourist industry in order to support
tourists .. hotels, pensions, etc.
And in Greece, half the people live in the capital, leaving the rest
even emptier. Just right for putting up ancient ruins in.
> It's one of few places in the world where you can drink tap water ;)))
Hey, I've always drunk tap water everywhere. London tapwater in
particular. It's hard, but tasty! Madrid tap water is truly delicious,
coming from the mountains just outside. I can't recall what I used to
do in Paris, but I doubt it ever crossed my mind NOT to drink tapwater.
> Well, I just hope you in California will be better off when Schwartzenegger
> becomes the governer ;)))
Didn't you know that he was made of silicon? He's appropriate!
> You'd be surprised how people in Europe are not ignorant about the U.S.
Uh ... pass. That's too heavy for my chevvy.
> But, okay, I must admit one thing. I don't like how american-english is
> pushed via lot of U.S. products (movies, music, mcdonalds and so on), because
> most of people here are starting to use a mix of croatian and english
> :(((
Now that's useful for a tourist industry! How are tourists meant to
take buses and taxis if they can't even figure the destination?
Peter
Cybe R. Wizard
Davorin Vlahovic <A-B...@fly.srk.fer.hr> wrote:
> I don't hate Americans, I speak to a lot of them every day, and see
> that they're just people like me (but don't like Linux as much ;))
> They rather use Windoze or MacOS ;))).
You must forgive them this minor ignorance. There /are/ a few of us who
are more enlightened.
Cybe R. Wizard
--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L
John Hasler
> You are, unfortunately and sadly, wrong. There is plenty of bigotry in
> the world and some of it is directed against citizens of th USA.
Davorin Vlahovic writes:
> If so, not without reason.
There is never any good reason for bigotry.
> But, believe me, nobody hates all Americans per se...
You're wrong.
> For instance, what would you think of a nation whose small group
> destroyed your Statue of liberty, or well, Twin towers (and noone got
> hurt)?)
Why would I hold all the citizens of a nation responsible for the actions
of a few individuals just because those individuals happened to be citizens
of that nation?
Chris F.A. Johnson
>
> Hey, I've always drunk tap water everywhere. London tapwater in
> particular. It's hard, but tasty! Madrid tap water is truly delicious,
> coming from the mountains just outside. I can't recall what I used to
> do in Paris, but I doubt it ever crossed my mind NOT to drink tapwater.
The only time I think of not using tap water is in a good Scotch
whisky.
--
Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfaj.freeshell.org
===================================================================
My code (if any) in this post is copyright 2003, Chris F.A. Johnson
and may be copied under the terms of the GNU General Public License
Bill Unruh
]So far, it would appear that SCO's scare tactics are working. Our local
]school district got cold feet after being shown headlines about Linux
]being a pirated OS. Result, we now have seven thousand copies of XP to
]load, rather than the small pile of Red Hat that we bought in the summer.
]Searching all over the web, I am astounded at how many opinions there are
]on the subject and how few facts. Most of them are from Linux techies who
]laugh at the claims of SCO and point out SCO is going to be pounded into
]the ground - reminds me of the story of the grasshoppers deciding to get
]rid of the elephants. Like listening to the wind - it may be pleasant,
]but it tells you nothing.
]Can anybody point to a site that has REAL legal information on the
]subject? Such as, is there any slightest, unbelievably remote, 10 million
]to 1, blue sky, lottery winning possibility that SCO is right? I can't go
Uh, the two sentences are contradictory. The case has NOT come to court,
so there is no REAL legal information on the subject. Then you ask if
there is a remote chance that they are right.
Their claim falls into a number of parts. One part is a contract
dispute with IBM, who they claim among other things, violated the
contract not to do anything to decrease the value of Unix by working on
Linux. Those issues are irrelevant to Linux.
The other part is a vague claim that copyright code from Unix found its
way into Linux. This SCO has been increadibly vague about, and has not
made anyclaims as to which code it was that was supposed to have been
copied. Thus it is impossible to evaluate that claim. It is on the basis
of this claim, that IBM took proprietary code out of Unix and put it
into IBM's contribution to Linux which forms the basis of SCO's claim
against Linux in general, rather than against IBM.
Now, as far as I know, the courts are highly unlikely to allow SCO to go
after users who unknowingly used code containing code is derived from
SCO copyrighted code. They may allow SCO to get damages against IBM for
using that code, and require Linux to remove any such code from future
versions of Linux. But this is all based on the completely unproven
allegation that such code exists in Linux.
]before a school board and say that Joe, down the street, has used Linux
]for years, knows all about it, has two PCs with Linux and he really likes
]it and says that SCO is wrong.
Talk to a lawyer in your city who knows something about intellectual
protperty rights.
]Opinions are welcome and I agree with most of them, but I need some facts.
](However, I realise that there may not be any available - after all, if I
]suddenly claim to own the land under New York city, I obviously can't
]prove anything, but the courts may take years to chuck my claim out while
]all along making people nervous about purchasing any real estate there.)
Read on the SCO site, SCO's statement of claims against IBM (not Linux).
At present that is the ONLY "hard fact" in the case.
]
]If the powers that be (IBM, Red Hat, Suse, etc) sit on this much longer,
]the big recent burst of momentum is going to coast to a stop.
And they should do what?
Redhat is suing SCO. And that case should come to court by at least
2020.
Davorin Vlahovic
>> It has the cleanest sea, 1400 islands, endemic species of plants
>
> Well, Greece has all that and more. Cleaner seas too.
Been to Greece. I think you don't know whay you're talking about.
>> of other animals I don't think you have names of...)
>
> "tourists".
;)) LOL, a really good one ;)))
>> 1/4 of all people live in the capital of Zagreb, so most of the land is
>> unused and is a real natural beauty.
>
> Yah .. I must go some day. The problem is that I doubt there's anywhere
> to stay! One needs some kind of a tourist industry in order to support
> tourists .. hotels, pensions, etc.
Oh, there is. Hotels, pensions, even private accomodations are
everywhere...and I mean, everywhere....
> And in Greece, half the people live in the capital, leaving the rest
> even emptier. Just right for putting up ancient ruins in.
;)))
>> It's one of few places in the world where you can drink tap water ;)))
>
> Hey, I've always drunk tap water everywhere. London tapwater in
> particular. It's hard, but tasty! Madrid tap water is truly delicious,
> coming from the mountains just outside. I can't recall what I used to
> do in Paris, but I doubt it ever crossed my mind NOT to drink tapwater.
;)) Well, Zagreb gets it's water from the nearby mountain called
"Medvednica" ;)))
>> Well, I just hope you in California will be better off when Schwartzenegger
>> becomes the governer ;)))
>
> Didn't you know that he was made of silicon? He's appropriate!
LOOOL!!! WRITE A BOOK! ;)) Everyone else have ;)
>> You'd be surprised how people in Europe are not ignorant about the U.S.
>
> Uh ... pass. That's too heavy for my chevvy.
;)))
>> But, okay, I must admit one thing. I don't like how american-english is
>> pushed via lot of U.S. products (movies, music, mcdonalds and so on), because
>> most of people here are starting to use a mix of croatian and english
>> :(((
>
> Now that's useful for a tourist industry! How are tourists meant to
> take buses and taxis if they can't even figure the destination?
>
Don't worry about that, 50% of people under the age of 40 knows english.
Other half knows italian and german. Some 25% knows two or more
languages.
Davorin Vlahovic
> I wrote:
>> You are, unfortunately and sadly, wrong. There is plenty of bigotry in
>> the world and some of it is directed against citizens of th USA.
>
> Davorin Vlahovic writes:
>> If so, not without reason.
>
> There is never any good reason for bigotry.
>
>> But, believe me, nobody hates all Americans per se...
>
> You're wrong.
I don't think so...
>> For instance, what would you think of a nation whose small group
>> destroyed your Statue of liberty, or well, Twin towers (and noone got
>> hurt)?)
>
> Why would I hold all the citizens of a nation responsible for the actions
> of a few individuals just because those individuals happened to be citizens
> of that nation?
Exactly. That's why I wrote this:
>> But, believe me, nobody hates all Americans per se...
Stefan Patric
> Stefan Patric writes:
>> I only know what I read in the paper. I've never bothered to read
>> the actual brief.
>
> I have.
And what did it say?
I myself hate reading legal briefs. Lawyers take 20 pages to say
what most normal people can express in a couple of short paragraphs.
(Really smart ones can do it in a few sentences. ;-) ) I really
have better things I can use my time for.
In any case, I'll wait until the case actually goes to trial before I
start seriously concerning myself with the outcome. Right now, SCO
is beginning with intimidation and lots of paper (a typical ploy) to
force a settlement or force IBM to buy SCO like Microsoft did with
Stacker some years ago, when Stacker sued them for incorporating
their disk compression software into Windows. I doubt either will
happen.
Personally, I think SCO is headed toward failure. They themselves
admit in their corporate reports that they are not doing well
financially. Right now, they're looking for cash to bolster a
failing business.
I'll just wait and see.
--
Stefan Patric
too...@yahoo.com
Harry Phillips
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:29:24 +0000, Bob Tennent wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:58:33 -0500, WileElmo wrote:
>>
>> > subject?
>>
>>RH-Declaratory-Judgment.txt
>
>
> ---------------------
> Forbidden
> You don't have permission to access /twiki/pub/Main/SCOvsIBMReferences/ on
> this server.
> ---------------------
>
> Alas, it appears that this unworthy one must wait for another missive.
He isn't aware of www.tinyurl.com so the line is wrapped and broken.
Instead of being able to click on a link that is 23 characters long (ie
http://tinyurl.com/j530) he posted a link that cannot possibly work
without copy and paste.
Regards
Harry
pbs
>
> Why would I hold all the citizens of a nation responsible for the actions
> of a few individuals just because those individuals happened to be citizens
> of that nation?
This is thread is already way off topic so:
If the executive arm of a government of a democratic country, who are a
citizen of that country, initiates an action on behalf of that country
which leads to conflict with another group. Is that group more or less
justified in retaliating against the citizens of the democracy than they
would be of citizens of a country run by a tyrant (also a citizen) who
initiated a similar action?
John Hasler
> Is that group more or less justified in retaliating against the citizens
> of the democracy than they would be of citizens of a country run by a
> tyrant (also a citizen) who initiated a similar action?
No one is ever justified in injuring anyone who has not injured them or
threatened to do so. And "retaliation" is always wrong.