Treehouse Fun Ranch _NOT_ Closing
Dennis Kirkpatrick
Ranch in California were true based on printed documents coming from
that club.
More recently published information from Treehouse indicates that it
will not close as long as it ius able to continue existing
membership levels and effect an increase in new memberships and
visitation. Changing to a textile camp remains a possibility but no
firm decisions on that would be made until sometime in the Spring
but as early as March.
It would appear (IMHO) that the notice if the club closing as a
nudist park was a wake up call to it's membership and other visitors
that they are hurting and need help, be it a bit dramatic.
Information on this is currently making it's way around the BBS
services.
--
Dennis Kirkpatrick | Pilgrim Naturists
76334...@compuserve.com | PO Box 273, Boston, MA. 02131
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
KMGall
down. Compare the place to Elysium, or Glen Eden, and it is like a slum.
If they made the place a little nicer to go to, I would go. Aside from
this, it would be a shame to have one less nudist facility to go to. It
seems that it is rare for new facilities to start. That is, much more
rare, unfortunately, than facilities closing.
Nikkicraft
A.S.A./Bill Flesher-Style
or: Bill Flesher Wishes He Could Forget
"You know that Nikki Craft is going after just anybody who is important to
nudism right now." Bill Flesher
One of my informants told me of a conversation they had overheard between
Fran and Bill Flesher, and several others, shortly after the Wilcox
article had been published by Tom Kelley in Bare In Mind.
The conversation provides a good example of the behind-the-scenes
pressuring that serves to silence the truth in the A.S.A. circles.
According to my informant, Fran Flesher was complaining that Bare In Mind
had printed "that stuff about the ICONoclast," warning that she would tell
the editor, Betty Good, that if BIM printed anything else like that she
would let them know that they did not have the Flesher's support anymore.
The Fleshers knew that could have a chilling effect, because at the time
they took 300 copies of Bare In Mind for their members.
In the same conversation, Bill Flesher complained about the ICONoclast
being distributed at the Western Sunbathing Association convention held at
Treehouse, and said that he and Fran objected to their being passed out on
their property. The Fleshers then began approaching several other leaders
in the nudist movement about pressuring BIM to censor the evolving
discussion about child abuse.
I had always known that Bill and Fran stifled dissent when it was
politically advantageous. Bill Flesher, along with Ed Lange, had already
attempted, unsuccessfully, to prevent me from talking to a group of nudist
camp entrepreneurs about child pornography at a convention in Las Vegas in
1987.
Another informant overheard Bill Flesher say: "You know that Nikki Craft
is going after just anybody who is important to nudism right now."
Who is Bill Flesher, anyway? And why does he want to shut me up? Is he
somebody important to nudism? You bet your sweet bippy he is.
Bill Flesher is the long time owner of Treehouse Nudist Camp and
Treehouse Too, both in Southern California. The Fleshers are the American
Sunbathing Association's darlings of Family Nudism. They have received
awards from the A.S.A. for their appearances on national television talk
shows like Morton Downey and Geraldo. A.S.A. officials like Jack Dupree,
Arne Erickson and Robert Page were very proud of what the Fleshers did on
the Geraldo show in 1989.
What do the Fleshers talk about when they go on these shows now-a-days?
Family Nudism . . . and they are quite pious and self-righteous about it.
In a People magazine article (Oct. 1986) they denounced longhaired males
and drug users, stating that they are strong supporters of Ronald
Reagan/Bush and the right wing. They are fanatically law and order, and
practice "church-going and traditional family values." The Fleshers insist
that democracy ends upon entering their gate. "Inside Treehouse," Bill
Flesher says, like the good little patriarch that he is, "I'm the dictator
of a one-man dictatorship."
However, an early 1980 interview in Penthouse had the Fleshers espousing
the virtues of wife-swapping and swinging. Why not? They have operated one
of the largest nudist/swinger club in the country (Naked City and Paradise
Lakes their primary competition).
Bill Flesher has always been known for his uncontrollable and hysterical
temper. It's common knowledge that Bill Flesher has battered his wife,
Fran, and threatened people's lives at the camp. A County of Los Angeles
Department of Public Social Services document dated December 19, 1972
reads: "Mrs. Flesher does acknowledge that her husbands sexual activities
with [several children], his use of physical violence with her and his
tendency to use alcohol to excess are indications that he does have some
kind of psychological and/or neurological problem. However, she does not
seem to feel that these are priority issues for her family." There are
even more serious rumors going around about Flesher, that I happen to
believe are true, but they have not been substantiated through court
records after a superficial attempt so I will not list them here.
What can be substantiated however is that Bill Flesher has chronically
sexually abused several children. That would appear to disqualify him to
be any expert on so-called Family Nudism. Then again, maybe not. Is this
the best the A.S.A. can do?
For years the A.S.A. and T.N.S. have been aware of Fleshers past
behavioral problems and still aligned with him and allowed him to
represent their movement in the national arena. Baxandall always expressed
disgust with Flesher but defended his current spokesmanship by saying his
activities were in the past. Some members in the A.S.A. who were aware of
it said that since he was never convicted it was none of their concern and
only the concern of the Flesher family. It is this arrogance and denial
that has caused me to come forward with this information now.
There are good reasons that Bill Flesher wants to publicly discredit me,
and doesn't want me to talk about child pornography and child abuse. There
is also a good reason why Robert Page and the A.S.A. should be ashamed of
themselves every time they hear Bill Flesher, or Fran, talk about how much
they have contributed to Family Naturism. The Fleshers are living a big
lie. Bill Flesher is a hypocrite of the worst kind, and Fran and the
A.S.A. help make him look good. That's a shame.
(This article is reprinted from the ICONoclast. I have included all
sidebars that appeared with it.)
BILL FLESHER: SIDEBAR #1"Delay - if it occurred or is believed to have
occurred - means nothing in a matter of serious moral turpitude, involving
a responsible person's pursuit of concealed, disreputable objectives, the
realization or scandalous disclosure of which can only harm the reputation
of a life-style that is already the subject of controversy for its
announced goals. In my experience, concealment of persons with
disreputable, hidden agendas, when the evidence is known, gives rise to
public disgust, even if the events took place five or ten years earlier.
There is no statue of limitations on moral turpitude." Excerpted from a
letter written by Lee Baxandall (circa 1987) about a European
(International Naturist Federation pedophile named David Clayre.
Reprinted from the ICONoclast, NOPE, P.O. Box 2085, Rancho Cordova, CA
95741-2085
*Copyright 1995 by Nikki Craft. All rights reserved. Except for one-time
personal use, no part of any issue may be reproduced by any mechanical,
photographic or electronic process, or in the form of a phonographic
recording, nor may it be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted or
otherwise copied for public or private use without written permission of
the publisher. For information regarding back issues, reprints or
permissions, E-mail nikki...@aol.com.
Paul Burnett
>politically advantageous. Bill Flesher, along with Ed Lange, had already
>attempted, unsuccessfully, to prevent me from talking to a group of nudist
>camp entrepreneurs about child pornography at a convention in Las Vegas in
>1987.
_Ed Lange_? <chortle> Mister Elysium? I was debating him and some of
his toadies (does anybody know who Gunther Pescht) is?) in the 70's.
Pine Tree Associates ran a photographer off the grounds when they found
out he was dealing with Elysium because they didn't want pictures of
Pine Tree kids showing up in Elysium publications.
>There are
>even more serious rumors going around about Flesher, that I happen to
>believe are true, but they have not been substantiated through court
>records after a superficial attempt so I will not list them here.
Could you give us some hints? Like "rhymes with...?
---
þ QMPro 1.52 þ ...from San Jose, CA... paul.b...@toadhall.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: paul.b...@toadhall.com (Paul Burnett)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hunter
>From: nikki...@aol.com (Nikkicraft)
>Subject: TREEHOUSE IS A DIVE AND WORSE THAT THAT . . .
>Date: 30 Dec 1994 14:39:36 -0500
>Family Nudism
>A.S.A./Bill Flesher-Style
>or: Bill Flesher Wishes He Could Forget
>"You know that Nikki Craft is going after just anybody who is important to
>nudism right now." Bill Flesher
*****lots 'o stuff deleted*****
>Reprinted from the ICONoclast, NOPE, P.O. Box 2085, Rancho Cordova, CA
>95741-2085
>*Copyright 1995 by Nikki Craft. All rights reserved. Except for one-time
>personal use, no part of any issue may be reproduced by any mechanical,
>photographic or electronic process, or in the form of a phonographic
>recording, nor may it be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted or
>otherwise copied for public or private use without written permission of
>the publisher. For information regarding back issues, reprints or
>permissions, E-mail nikki...@aol.com.
As editor of the Southwestern Sunbathing Association's newsletter "The
Sunspot" and husband/kitchen cabinet member to the President of the region, I
have a comment or three regarding your post concerning Treehouse, Bill
Flesher, (et al).
Have a booger and calm down. You obviously have an axe to
grind, and that is fine, but don't do it here. It is very apparent you are
dis-satisfied with these folks, but don't post complete newsletter/magazine
articles here to slam them. If I wanted to read that kind of stuff, I'd
subscribe to it. I don't have a subscription, however, and don't wish to have
their (or your) dirty laundry all over my PC . If Mr. Flesher (et al) reads
your article in the ICONoclast NOPE you probably achieved the result intended;
embarasment or anger. As editor of "The Sunspot" I have written some rather
venomous articles, too, but they stay in the newsletter. I do not believe it
is journalistically proper to skewer anyone in a manner in which they have no
way to defend themselves. Did the those folks bother respond to your artice?
If so, please post their complete response.
Kevin Hunter
ASA, SWSA, Hill Country Nudists
Commodore, GulfCoast Nudist Yacht Club
Editor, SWSA's "The Sunspot"
========================================================
Kevin Hunter khu...@beach.utmb.edu
Gulf Coast Nudist Yacht Club Galveston, Texas
========================================================
wharfie
Anybody remember Mark Ethan Smith?
>*Copyright 1995 by Nikki Craft. All rights reserved. Except for one-time
>personal use, no part of any issue may be reproduced by any mechanical,
>photographic or electronic process, or in the form of a phonographic
Hmmmm, sounds like my incremental backups violate this copyright.
Nikkicraft
swan-- naturist resort well-known as a swinger club. My mistake.
Richard Kenner
>the virtues of wife-swapping and swinging. Why not? They have operated one
>of the largest nudist/swinger club in the country (Naked City and Paradise
>Lakes their primary competition).
Well, Paradise Lakes folks, time to get out the shotgun and shoot yet
another messenger ...
Seriously, I think that Paradise Lakes has been making lots of public
relations mistakes on this issue. It's something that won't just go
away by itself or by trying to silence messengers. I don't have any
real proposals, though; it's a tough problem and is to some extent
economic.
When I'm at Paradise Lakes I have no idea what goes on behind closed
doors, but I can say that if there is any swinging going on it
certainly doesn't affect the enjoyment of anyone who does not wish to
participate in any such activity.
Some have claimed the practice of dancing in lingerie sets a bad tone,
but I don't know that I really believe that. My own complaint about
the dances are that nearly nobody is nude, so people who would like to
remain nude all the time will feel very uneasy doing so.
Nevertheless, there certainly are swingers within the nudist community
and it's also true that they will tend to be more attracted to
Paradise Lakes than other nudist clubs, if just because it has a
nightlife. But that's not in itself necessarily a reason to change
any of the activities.
Similarly, it's a resort with lots of children around that admits
single males. There's therefore a potential pedophille problem, but
again that's hardly a reason to either throw out the children or
banish single men.
Kraig Blackwelder
(Nikkicraft) wrote:
> Family Nudism
> A.S.A./Bill Flesher-Style
>
> or: Bill Flesher Wishes He Could Forget
>
> "You know that Nikki Craft is going after just anybody who is important to
> nudism right now." Bill Flesher
(various ugly accusations and "Geraldo" level journalism deleted)
This woman is dressed up in her armor, sporting her sheild of
self-righteousness and her sword of spite. She is on her crusade against
the evil nudist pedophiles and wants everybody to know it. I, however,
don't really appreciate this crap. If I wanted to read two-bit crime
books, I'd go get something off the rack at the supermarket. As it is, I
don't, so I'm reading rec.nude to keep up on trends and places for
naturists.
She's showing a regrettable lack of self-control. If she were a dog
I'd have her put to sleep.
K.
Robert Palmer
that is fine, but don't do it here. It is very apparent you are
dis-satisfied with these folks, but don't post complete
newsletter/magazine articles here to slam them. If I wanted to read
that kind of stuff, I'd subscribe to it. I don't have a subscription,
however, and don't wish to have their (or your) dirty laundry all over
my PC . If Mr. Flesher (et al) reads your article in the ICONoclast
NOPE you probably achieved the result intended; embarasment or anger.
As editor of "The Sunspot" I have written some rather venomous articles,
too, but they stay in the newsletter. I do not believe it is
journalistically proper to skewer anyone in a manner in which they have no
way to defend themselves. Did the those folks bother respond to your artice?
If so, please post their complete response.
Kevin Hunter
ASA, SWSA, Hill Country Nudists
Commodore, GulfCoast Nudist Yacht Club
Editor, SWSA's "The Sunspot"
========================================================
Kevin Hunter khu...@beach.utmb.edu
Gulf Coast Nudist Yacht Club Galveston, Texas
========================================================
Nikkicraft
to appear with anything to do with Mr. Elysium-Ed Lange. Pine Tree knew
what you probably didn't. Ed Lange was a child pornographer himself. He
published "Young and Naked" and lots of other pornography that appeared on
the newstands in the mid 70s, and now can be found in the piles of
pornography men who are abusing children get arrested with. He was still
proud of it not too long ago. I'll be posting about him on here too.
An interesting thing happened to me, too, about Lange and photography. His
daughter was at a Naturist Society gathering with her newborn baby. She
refused to allow the photographer to take her babies photo. Even I thought
it was perhaps overly cautious. A newborn baby? Wasn't that a strange
stand for a woman who had been raised in a naturist environment? But she
was smarter than I would have been at the time. It turned out that the
photographer, Tim Wilcox, was a muliple convicted felon.
For those who think they are so easy to get rid of . . . you are wrong.
They are arrogant and they hang in there. And there are those who allow
them to. Wilcox still operates a naturist children's bbs on fidonet, and
the man who oversees bbs' for Fido refused to take him off -- as far as I
know -- saying that Wilcox had done his time. I'll post lots of Wilcox
very soon.
On Flesher: It's serious charges and they are true, but you know how the
law is. I know it's really unfair to drop something and not be able to
back it up there anymore than what I did, but this guy is such an
incredible sleaze. There are bookoos of lawsuits against the Flesher right
now, and small claims cases for fraud, and criminal cases for assault-type
charges. In fact, many don't believe for a second that he really has
alzheimers (however ya spell it) but is just trying to get out of all the
legal troubles he's in. Treehous has always been a mess, but now it's
really bad. The only people who go there are bikers. The Fleshers are now
doing fund raising for alzheimers organizations. Gads. Somebody ought to
warn them. Yeah, I'd like to see how the Fleshers would respond to the
charges, too. I've got court documents that verify he has battered his
wife and raped his dauthers, and that he is an alchoholic; and I've got
the porn magazines with the photos of him and Fran back in their swingin'
days if they try to deny that.
I was so complimented when you said my postings were more interesting than
JSEXY. That was the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.
J.P. Allen
In article <kdb229-3012...@aragorn176.acns.nwu.edu>, Kraig Blackwelder (kdb...@nwu.edu) writes:
>In article <3e1nlo$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, nikki...@aol.com
>(Nikkicraft) wrote:
>
>> Family Nudism
>> A.S.A./Bill Flesher-Style
>>
>> or: Bill Flesher Wishes He Could Forget
>>
>> "You know that Nikki Craft is going after just anybody who is important to
>> nudism right now." Bill Flesher
> (various ugly accusations and "Geraldo" level journalism deleted)
>
> This woman is dressed up in her armor, sporting her sheild of
>self-righteousness and her sword of spite. She is on her crusade against
>the evil nudist pedophiles and wants everybody to know it. I, however,
>don't really appreciate this crap. If I wanted to read two-bit crime
>books, I'd go get something off the rack at the supermarket. As it is, I
>don't, so I'm reading rec.nude to keep up on trends and places for
>naturists.
This just about sums it up for me too!
> She's showing a regrettable lack of self-control. If she were a dog
>I'd have her put to sleep.
May I second the motion? The motion has carried... get out the
needle (uh, I mean kill files).
Joe
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
If it barks like a dog, walks like a dog... it's a dog!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Burnett
>swan-- naturist resort well-known as a swinger club. My mistake.
What_ever_ is a "swan" naturist resort? One where the birds are not
dressed?
---
ž QMPro 1.52 ž ...from San Jose, CA... paul.b...@toadhall.com
Paul Burnett
>writes:
>> [ ravings deleted ]
W> Anybody remember Mark Ethan Smith?
No. Who dat?
W>>*Copyright 1995 by Nikki Craft. All rights reserved. Except for one-time
>>personal use, no part of any issue may be reproduced by any mechanical,
>>photographic or electronic process, or in the form of a phonographic
W> Hmmmm, sounds like my incremental backups violate this copyright.
Probably - in fact, getting it off the wire onto your hard disk probably
does.
I'm intensely curious how in very late 1994 she claims a 1995 copyright.
---
þ QMPro 1.52 þ ...from San Jose, CA... paul.b...@toadhall.com
Paul Burnett
> He
>published "Young and Naked" and lots of other pornography that appeared on
>the newstands in the mid 70s
>I'll be posting about him on here too.
Looking forward to it.
N>I was so complimented when you said my postings were more interesting than
>JSEXY. That was the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.
<chortle!> I _do_ appreciate your material - really - _much_ more than
I did all the JSEXY messages put together.
Paul Burnett
That's what the ENTER key is for, Attilla, ol' buddy. <grin>
tim keene
>In article <3e1nlo$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> nikki...@aol.com (Nikkicraft) writes:
>>From: nikki...@aol.com (Nikkicraft)
>>Subject: TREEHOUSE IS A DIVE AND WORSE THAT THAT . . .
>>Date: 30 Dec 1994 14:39:36 -0500
>
>
>
>As editor of the Southwestern Sunbathing Association's newsletter "The
>Sunspot" and husband/kitchen cabinet member to the President of the region, I
>have a comment or three regarding your post concerning Treehouse, Bill
>Flesher, (et al).
>
>Have a booger and calm down. You obviously have an axe to
OOOh, I like your sense of humor . . . :-}
>grind, and that is fine, but don't do it here. It is very apparent you are
>dis-satisfied with these folks, but don't post complete newsletter/magazine
>articles here to slam them. If I wanted to read that kind of stuff, I'd
>subscribe to it. I don't have a subscription, however, and don't wish to have
>their (or your) dirty laundry all over my PC . If Mr. Flesher (et al) reads
>your article in the ICONoclast NOPE you probably achieved the result intended;
>embarasment or anger. As editor of "The Sunspot" I have written some rather
>venomous articles, too, but they stay in the newsletter. I do not believe it
>is journalistically proper to skewer anyone in a manner in which they have no
>way to defend themselves. Did the those folks bother respond to your artice?
>If so, please post their complete response.
>
Another post I wanted to keep out of, but my fingers appear to be in
charge. I, too, found that her ramblings were too long, and anti-nudist
in their flavor. I also found her rhetoric very much lacking in real
proof in most cases. 'I heard a rumor, and it wasn't very nice, but I
can't prove it, so I won't publish it' is probably a very good form of
character assassination, because how can you respond to it? I am opposed
to photographers, as many of you may recall, because of the invasion of
privacy, but I don't believe everyone who takes a picture is a criminal,
and from what I get of her post, NikkiCraft does believe so - or hates a
former friend so much, she'd hang us all, just to get at him.
Nikki, please take it else where, I can't sleep with all the noise.
attilla
--
attilla the hun (Tim Keene)
Best Process server/Skip-Tracer
in known world. (408-262-7021)
att...@netcom.com
DGrassi
> known as a swinger club
Would you like to _define_ "swinger club?" I can see no real similarity
between what are generally known as swingers clubs and Paradise Lakes but
can see substantial differences. And yes, there are swingers in my
Baptist Church too.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dan Grassi, DGr...@aol.com
wharfie
>W> Anybody remember Mark Ethan Smith?
>No. Who dat?
It's sort of _hard_ to explain easily... Mark Ethan Smith was
a woman who insisted that women were not full citizens of America and
demanded to be treated as a man, including legally changing her name
to a traditionally male one and suing her employer to be allowed to
use the men's room (!). Now, this actually sounds quite righteous in
a revolutionary sort of way, until you realize that coupled with this
desire to be treated as male went a complete and irrational hatred of
anything male. As simple a thing as using the feminine pronoun to
refer to her would result in torrents of threatening and
barely-coherent hate mail to you, root, postmaster, and whatever
newsgroups you'd commited the faux-pas in. People who gave her a hard
time on the net - and Mark could be very hateful at times - were
accused of conspiring to sneak into her apartment and murder her for
daring to break out of the traditional female role. (I once had to
spend a weekend spinning tapes and extracting logs to prove that one
of my users couldn't possibly have sent a particular piece of mail
which Mark claimed she had been threatened with after my boss got
cc:'d on one of her lunatic tirades...)
I find Ms. Craft's all-men-are-child-rapists-and-that's-all-they-are
Morganisms reminiscent of Smith's hatefulness.
John Wincn
> I find Ms. Craft's all-men-are-child-rapists-and-that's-all-they-are
>Morganisms reminiscent of Smith's hatefulness.
Oh bullshit, wharfie. Sounds to me like you haven't had a decent opportunity
to mount a 'good' crusade in a loooooong time and you miss it. You were once
an entertaining read, but no longer. Do everyone, and yourself, a favor:
go look up Diane Holt and rant at her for a while.
--
J. M. Wincn j...@angelo.amd.com
Advanced Micro Devices j...@citynet.org
(408) 749-5093 N:1,10:57 FQ:8,15:47 F:16,20:28 LQ:24,4:59
t...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
>>W> Anybody remember Mark Ethan Smith?
>>No. Who dat?
> to a traditionally male one and suing her employer to be allowed to
> use the men's room (!). Now, this actually sounds quite righteous in
> a revolutionary sort of way, until you realize that coupled with this
> desire to be treated as male went a complete and irrational hatred of
> anything male.
I always felt that Mark was simply afriad of men. Terrified in fact.
Homosexual men were often her greatest fear. I still remember her
"Suck AIDS and DIE!" posting.
> (I once had to
> spend a weekend spinning tapes and extracting logs to prove that one
> of my users couldn't possibly have sent a particular piece of mail
> which Mark claimed she had been threatened with after my boss got
> cc:'d on one of her lunatic tirades...)
MES -- The bain of sysadmins worldwide!
> I find Ms. Craft's all-men-are-child-rapists-and-that's-all-they-are
> Morganisms reminiscent of Smith's hatefulness.
Mark didn't write as well as Nikki does. But she did write as much!
Terry
t...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
> an entertaining read, but no longer. Do everyone, and yourself, a favor:
> go look up Diane Holt and rant at her for a while.
What is this? Faded USENET celibrity week? Where's Ted Kaldis these days?
Terry ":-)" Wood
PS: Don't you guys EVER complain about me posting "too much" after what I've
just spent the past 4 hours reading.
scr...@lmsmgr.lerc.nasa.gov
>Family Nudism
>A.S.A./Bill Flesher-Style
Finally Ms. Craft says something that is easy to check out. It so happens
that I saved a copy of this article. It's entitled "There's Always a Full
Moon When Bill and Fran Go Riding" and appeared in People Magazine on
Oct. 20, 1986. Rereading the article revealed to me something disturbing
about Craft's methods.
>In a People magazine article (Oct. 1986) they denounced longhaired males
>and drug users,
Let's compare what she said the article said to what the article really
said. The closest thing in the article to Craft's statement actually said,
"It was their belief in traditional values that prompted the Fleshers to
leave their home in suburban Canoga Park in 1972 to move to Devore . . . .
At the time long hair and drugs were becoming popular in the high schools
in San Fernando Valley, and the Fleshers wanted out. 'I didn't want my
kids involved with that,' says Bill. So they took over the Treehouse,
which had been a nudist camp for decades." Craft has considerably
harshened what was a statement of parental concern to a statement of
denunciation.
>stating that they are strong supporters of Ronald
>Reagan/Bush and the right wing. They are fanatically law and order, and
>practice "church-going and traditional family values."
Here Craft uses quotation marks to make it appear that she's quoting the
article. Yet the quoted phrase does not appear in the article. There
is also no reference in the article to the Fleshers being "fanatically
law and order". As for being supporters of Bush (who wasn't yet
President when the article was published), here is what the article
actually said, "Bill and Fran Flesher are, with the one exception of
their rather meager wardrobe requirements, very mainstream. They have
been married for 33 years. They are both hardworking, churchgoing folks
who voted for Ronald Reagan twice and believe in God, the family, and
the American way. 'Most nudists,' says Bill, 'are just real good
people.'" Note there is nothing about being "right wing". As for
churchgoing and family values, that's not necessarily the province of
the radical right.
>The Fleshers insist
>that democracy ends upon entering their gate. "Inside Treehouse," Bill
>Flesher says, like the good little patriarch that he is, "I'm the dictator
>of a one-man dictatorship."
Again Craft uses quotation marks to make it look like she's quoting the
article, but again the article is different. It says, "But if the
Treehouse is Utopian, it isn't democratic. 'Democracy stops at the front
gate,' says Bill Flesher. 'Inside it's a benevolent dictatorship with
just one dictator - me.'" Reading the article, I would interpret it as
saying Bill ran a "tight ship", so to speak. Craft's misquote, plus her
additional remark, makes Flesher sound like some sort of petty tyrant.
If Ms. Craft can misquote and distort the meaning of a magazine article
that any one of us can look up and check, how are we to believe her
when she refers to documents and events that we cannot easily check?
> However, an early 1980 interview in Penthouse had the Fleshers espousing
>the virtues of wife-swapping and swinging.
Ms. Craft, please give the title, date, and page number of this article.
We'd like to check this out!
> Why not? They have operated one
>of the largest nudist/swinger club in the country (Naked City and Paradise
>Lakes their primary competition).
True about Naked City (and a few other so-called "nudist" resorts) but
Paradise Lakes? Evidence, Ms. Craft?
> Bill Flesher has always been known for his uncontrollable and hysterical
>temper. It's common knowledge that Bill Flesher has battered his wife,
>Fran, and threatened people's lives at the camp. A County of Los Angeles
>Department of Public Social Services document dated December 19, 1972
>reads: "Mrs. Flesher does acknowledge that her husbands sexual activities
>with [several children], his use of physical violence with her and his
>tendency to use alcohol to excess are indications that he does have some
>kind of psychological and/or neurological problem. However, she does not
>seem to feel that these are priority issues for her family."
Can somebody check out this 22-year-old document? It would take some
digging to do so and see if she is quoting it accurately.
> There are
>even more serious rumors going around about Flesher, that I happen to
>believe are true, but they have not been substantiated through court
>records after a superficial attempt so I will not list them here.
Really?
> What can be substantiated however is that Bill Flesher has chronically
>sexually abused several children. That would appear to disqualify him to
>be any expert on so-called Family Nudism.
However, Craft never states that Flesher has been convicted or even
charged with sexually abusing children. Her only cited evidence is
his wife's charge that he did so, a charge seemingly made during a troubled
time in their marriage. No further evidence is made to substantiate this
charge, only mention of rumor.
Finally, Craft posts this in a forum where Bill Flesher cannot defend
himself. I cannot trust her to quote any response from him accurately,
given the People Magazine article.
So how do we believe anything Nikki Craft posts here?
Jeff
John Wincn
>In article <3e9o2i$1...@amdint.amd.com>, j...@angelo.amd.com (John Wincn) writes:
>
>> go look up Diane Holt and rant at her for a while.
>
>What is this? Faded USENET celibrity week? Where's Ted Kaldis these days?
T*ddy? ...last I heard he was whining about hidden homosexual messages in
roadside advertising and defending his own threatened use of tire irons.
Perhaps he's run off to worship at the feet of Rush Limburger.
>PS: Don't you guys EVER complain about me posting "too much" after what I've
>just spent the past 4 hours reading.
Never.
t...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
>>What is this? Faded USENET celibrity week?
^^^^^^^^^
Darn. I misspelled celebrity.
> T*ddy? ...last I heard he was whining about hidden homosexual messages in
> roadside advertising and defending his own threatened use of tire irons.
Did he ever get that 6 digit salary? ;-) He must have. He probably started
his OWN computer network.
> Perhaps he's run off to worship at the feet of Rush Limburger.
I have no problem with Rush. Just as long as he doesn't vote or breed. ;-)
The thought of T*d worshiping Rush is a rather funny one. Maybe he'll join
Rush on the air someday as a "co-host".
For all who've asked (via e-mail) "What have I missed? What did these people
post that would be worth reading?", let me answer you: "Not a thing". ;-)
Terry
Obnude: What do you suppose Rush and T*d would look like naked? Oh, I think
I'm gonna be sick.
tim keene
I'm not the only one to spot her M.O.! Very good, Jeff. How about the
fact that she speaks of hundreds (or more) of violations, but much, if
not most of her stuff is 10+ years old? If these guys are as dangerous
as you say, they must be very active. What have they been doing recently?
Please understand, I don't favor pediofiles, nor am I exactly against
Nikki Craft - But I Deal With Facts - not inuendo.