Eenie, Meenie, Miney, Moe...Etymology?
Bernhard Muenzer
In article <3d7bt1$2...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>, don...@srd.bt.co.uk (Donald Fisk) writes:
| Robert Bryan Lipton (lip...@news.dorsai.org) wrote:
| : Tony Sweeney (swe...@ingres.com) wrote:
| : : In article <17091A82S...@utcvm.utc.edu> JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu writes:
| : : >What is the etymology/origins of the counting song "Eenie, Meeny, Miney, Moe"?
| : : >Are there concealed racial slurs, history lessons, or other oddities to be
| : : >found in this innocuous piece of dogerrel?
| : : No. It simply means "one, two, three, four", in some one of the Celtic
| : : languages (I want to say Welsh, but I'm not sure; that might be
| : : hickory dickory dock).
| It doesn't mean 1, 2, 3, 4 in any of the Celtic languages: Gaelic is
| aon, da\, tri\, ceithir, and Welsh is something like un, dau, tri, pedwar.
| The other Celtic languages are very similar to either the Gaelic or
| Welsh.
Just adding more confusion to this thread:
The most popular pseudo random number generator with German kids goes:
Eene, mene, mu, Eenie, meenie, moe,
und raus bist du. and you are out.
raus bist du noch lange nicht; NOT !
sag mir erst, wie alt Du bist ! read("%d") your_age;
1, 2, 3, ... for (i=1; i<=your_age; i++);
[..] read("%s") your_name; ...
The simple purity of this rhyme clearly shows that this is the archetypical
counting rhyme, while the English version has been corrupted by insertion
of the apocryphal "Miney" in order to make it scan with a more or less
disguised ethnic joke.
The "Miney" bug in the first line of the English version is the reason
for the previous failure of entomologic analysis. The other reason is
that the previous posters have tried to find one language to fit the
first line of the poem.
The truth, however, is more universal and more profound: the simple
rhyme reflects the implications and limitations of the concept of
counting and numbers.
The first word, "eene", can clearly be traced to the word "one" in
old Germanic languages. This refers to the concept of using numbers
for counting purposes; a theme which will reappear in several
variations throughout the poem.
The use of the female gender is an indication that it may be an old
incantation from ancient, matriarchic ages.
The second word, "mene", uses the hebrew word for weighing to indicate
the concept of real numbers, in which the integers are embedded.
This allusion to biblical references is not to be taken lightly.
It forebodes the ultimate failure of trying to get over the problems
intrinsic to the numbering concept by extending it to real numbers.
The key to the interpretation of the whole poem is the third word, "mu".
This zen word clearly refutes the assumption that all questions are
to be decidable.
The rest of the rhyme elaborates on the counting motif presented in
the first line. It is crucial to note that both name and age of the
kids involved in the game are used for counting, with the result
being the pointer to yet another kid. These nested self-references
are the definite proof what the poem is all about:
This little children's counting rhyme is nothing less than an archaic
version of Goedel's theorem.
b "but does it have Buddha nature ?" m
--
int m,u,e=0;float l,_,I;main(){for(;e<1863;putchar((++e>923&&952>
e?60-m:u)["\n)ed.fsg@eum(rezneuM drahnreB"]))for(u=_=l=0;(m=e%81)
<80&&I*l+_*_<6&&20>++u;_=2*l*_+e/81*.09-1,l=I)I=l*l-_*_-2+m/27.;}
Randall C. Poe
was easy to pick the starting point so that you could eliminate
(or choose) anyone you wanted? We had a few variants, and clever
people would start inserting the variants on the spot (e.g., add
the "My mother said to pick..." or spell out words, etc.) to make
the results come out how they wanted.
Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
Harry Smith
Poe) writes:
This reminds me of the Flavius Josephus problem. See Knuth, "The Art of
Computer Programming", Vol. 1.
--
| Harry J. Smith
| 19628 Via Monte Dr., Saratoga, CA 95070-4522, USA
| Home Phone: 408 741-0406, Work Phone: 408 235-5088 (Voice Mail)
| EMail: HJS...@ix.netcom.com on the Internet via Netcom NetCruiser
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John Wilkinson
There are lots, I'm sure. (I wouldn't call these "pseudo-random", by the way).
I would suggest consulting the Opeys' "The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren."
I know two:
One two three four five six seven.
All good chiidren go to heaven.
Penny on the water, penny on the sea,
Penny on the ocean, out goes he. [or she, as the case may be]
And one in French:
Omme Stromme Gomme
Piqui piqui colle' gromme.
Bourree' bourree' rat-a-tomme.
Omme Stromme Gomme.
(I can't swear to the spelling!) (nor to the spelling of "Opey")
Bruce Tindall
>This reminds me of the Flavius Josephus problem. See Knuth, "The Art of
>Computer Programming", Vol. 1.
Or, for the more jurassic among us, Kasner and Newman, _Mathematics
and the Imagination_ (1940), which describes related counting-games
and -chants in several cultures.
--
P. O. Box 447, Morrisville NC 27560 USA.
David DeLaney
Hundreds, if not thousands. For example:
"Intery mintery cuttery corn
Apple peach and apple thorn
Wire, briar, limberlock
There were three geese in a flock
One flew East, one flew West,
and one flew over the cuckoo's nest;
out, goes, you!"
Dave "Almost any jumprope rhyme will do for another example" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableWIKTHLC
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / CanterSiegelKibozeBait!!
Harlan Messinger
: Did anyone else notice as a kid that it wasn't random, and that it
Sure:
One potato, two potato, three potato, four.
Five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.
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--------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as bad data, only data from bad homes.
Mark Desilets
> Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
> : Did anyone else notice as a kid that it wasn't random, and that it
> : was easy to pick the starting point so that you could eliminate
> : (or choose) anyone you wanted? We had a few variants, and clever
> : people would start inserting the variants on the spot (e.g., add
> : the "My mother said to pick..." or spell out words, etc.) to make
> : the results come out how they wanted.
>
> : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
>
> Sure:
>
> One potato, two potato, three potato, four.
> Five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.
>
>
I'm rubber and you're glue.
Whatever you say bounces off of me
and sticks to you.
I could always arrange this one so that the *other* kid was the glue.
Randall C. Poe
|> : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
|>
|> Sure:
|>
|> One potato, two potato, three potato, four.
|> Five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.
|>
I should clarify. Are there any counting rhymes which are a little more
pseudo-random or less predictable in their outcome?
Robert Bryan Lipton
Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go.
My mother told me to pick this one.
Out goes Y O U.
Red, White and Blue.
Bob
Paul Tholfsen
And the version I learned, as a little kid during WW2 was:
Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
Catch a Hitler by the toe
If he hollers, make him say
I give up to the USA.
A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
Mussolini is a meanie
And the Japs are worse.
Ken Moore
ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu "Randall C. Poe" writes:
>I should clarify. Are there any counting rhymes which are a little more
>pseudo-random or less predictable in their outcome?
The problem (very important to some children) of fairness is treated on
pages 57 to 61 of the Opies' book. The usual method is for the child
in charge of the dip to ask one of the others for a word or number
which controls, in some complicated manner, the conclusion of the
round. Because this gives the responder the opportunity to do some
quick arithmatic and manipulate the outcome in his or her favour, the
most sophisticated method asks a question to which the responder can
give only one answer, which is nevertheless presumed to be unknown to
the questioner beforehand.
Dipper (pointing to Eachie, peachie, pear, plum,
others in succession): When does your birthday come?
Child pointed at: Fourteenth of December
Dipper (pointing on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13,
each number or letter): 14, D-E-C-E-M-B-E-R. You are out.
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Mike Czaplinski
>And the version I learned, as a little kid during WW2 was:
>
>Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
>Catch a Hitler by the toe
>If he hollers, make him say
>I give up to the USA.
>
>A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
>
>Whistle while you work
>Hitler is a jerk
>Mussolini is a meanie
>And the Japs are worse.
My dad (who was ages 5-11 during WWII) taught the last two lines to me as:
"Mussolini is a weenie"
"And Tojo is much worse".
Which makes the leitmotif of ad homenim (sp?) attacks against the Axis leaders
more clear. Regional difference, perhaps (Dad is from Northern NJ, USA)?
Mike "Counterpoint the Underlying metaphor...death's too good for 'im"
Czaplinski
m...@nsscmail.att.com
Mark A. Stevens MD
: The "Miney" bug in the first line of the English version is the reason
: for the previous failure of entomologic analysis.
Doesn't "entomologic analysis" HAVE to have bugs? :)
--
Mark A. Stevens, M.D. Assistant Professor of Psychiatry
University of Texas Medical Branch | Mail: mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu
Galveston, TX 77555-0428 | Phone: (409) 772-3474
Mark A. Stevens MD
: A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
: Whistle while you work
: Hitler is a jerk
: Mussolini is a meanie
: And the Japs are worse.
Growing up near USAF bases in Germany in the 60's we used to taunt the
locals (who would gladly have chimed in, if we'd only know...)
Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
Mussolini bit his weenie
Now it doesn't work.
Mark A. Stevens MD
: Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
You mean, like:
Ink-a-bink,
bottle of ink.
Kissed a girl,
and now you stink!
?
Robert Mahoney
: "Mussolini is a weenie"
: "And Tojo is much worse".
I remember it as
"Mussolini pulled his weenie"
"And now it doesn't work"
Long Island,late 1960's.
Bob
Derek Tearne
Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
>Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
>
>: Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
>
>You mean, like:
>
>Ink-a-bink,
>bottle of ink.
>Kissed a girl,
>and now you stink!
Hmmmm, interesting.
That rhyme really does beg the question ...
.... don't you think.
Derek "Never had a problem with the way girls smell" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. de...@fujitsu.co.nz
Some of the more environmentally aware dinosaurs were worried about the
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
KKKatie
mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu "Mark A. Stevens MD" writes:
> Whistle while you work
> Hitler is a jerk
> Mussolini bit his weenie
> Now it doesn't work.
We were much more innocent in my young days
Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
He's half balmy, so's his army
Whistle while you work
Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
Hitler has only got one ball
Goering has hardly any at all
Himmler, has something similar
But Goebels has no balls at all
BTW years ago I heard a song on the TV in a programme about the clown
Joey Grimaldi which included a song about Napoleon and the allegation
that he only had one "codling". Anyone know any more about this ???
Kate
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Wayne W. McDougall
> In article <3ds3lj$g...@atlantis.utmb.edu>,
> Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
> >Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
> >
> >: Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
> >
> >You mean, like:
> >
> >Ink-a-bink,
> >bottle of ink.
> >Kissed a girl,
> >and now you stink!
>
> Derek "Never had a problem with the way girls smell" Tearne
They use their noses, don't they?
Auckland City Council
A C C
Auckland City Council
You're not he!
(Repeat until one person left)
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Wayne McDougall, son of dead, white, | Computer, commence imminent collapse
Europeans and keeper of the list of | of the Net, Code 1, 1A 2B 3KIBO
Ken Moore
Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk "KKKatie" writes:
>Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
>
>Hitler has only got one ball
>Goering has hardly any at all
>Himmler, has something similar
>But Goebels has no balls at all
Another version:
Hitler has only got one ball.
Goring has two but very small.
Himmler is very sim'lar,
But poor old Goballs got no balls at all.
(Spelling of names phonetic.)
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Charles Martin
> Mike Czaplinski (m...@nsscmail.southplainfieldnj.ncr.com) wrote:
>
> : "Mussolini is a weenie"
> : "And Tojo is much worse".
>
> I remember it as
> "Mussolini pulled his weenie"
> "And now it doesn't work"
Mussolini bit his weenie / now it doesn't squirt.
^^^ ^^^^^^
- Sag Harbor, Long Island
Heard at a summer camp
-- A bit more evocative, n'est-ce pas?
o--------=| Charles Martin |=--o
Susan C. Mitchell
: Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
: : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
: You mean, like:
: Ink-a-bink,
: bottle of ink.
: Kissed a girl,
: and now you stink!
: ?
My mother and your mother were hanging out clothes,
My mother punched your mother right in the nose.
What color was the blood?
{"Red." We weren't very imaginative.}
R-E-D spells red and you are not it!
Manassas, Virginia, c. 1967.
Think globally, act locally.
Susan
--
===========================================================================
"We, the people, are not free. Our democracy is but a name. We vote?
What does that mean? We choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee."
-- Helen Keller
Susan C. Mitchell
: : A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
: : Whistle while you work
: : Hitler is a jerk
: : Mussolini is a meanie
: : And the Japs are worse.
: Growing up near USAF bases in Germany in the 60's we used to taunt the
: locals (who would gladly have chimed in, if we'd only know...)
: Whistle while you work
: Hitler is a jerk
: Mussolini bit his weenie
: Now it doesn't work.
Marcia and Jon Pankake {*I* didn't make that name up!), in _The Prairie
Home Companion Songbook_, give the last line as "Just to watch it squirt."
Barbara Hamel
Even another go-round of the dreaded songs about masturbation has to be
preferable to this drivel.
My mother and your mother
Were hanging out the clothes.
My mother said your mother
raised an idiot.
Now go away.
Barbara "it's amazing how much less patient you get with the world after
reading a couple of Harlan Ellison stories... bless you, Harlan" Hamel
--
Barbara Hamel | How can one post to prove one's a lurker?
"decried NCFreenet wench" | Kinda like fucking for virginity isn't it?
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca | - Jason Heimbaugh
T. Bruce Tober
mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu "Mark A. Stevens MD" writes:
> Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
>
> : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
>
> You mean, like:
>
> Ink-a-bink,
> bottle of ink.
> Kissed a girl,
> and now you stink!
Omigawd. Haven't heard that in yonks. My mother ocassionallly
mentioned it from when she was a kid. She died three years ago
somewhere in her 60s so we must be talking the 1930-40 period in New
York city. Thanks for the reminder.
tbt
SJ. Brewster
: Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
: Hitler has only got one ball
: Goering has hardly any at all
: Himmler, has something similar
: But Goebels has no balls at all
Or, of course,
Hitler has only got one ball
The other is in the Albert Hall [or the Leeds Town Hall, etc, etc]
His mother
The dirty bugger
Cut off the other when Hitler was small
and so on.
--
Steve.B...@Bristol.ac.uk ! Room 4.9, Department of Mathematics,
-------------------------------! University of Bristol,
ISIHAC: R4 1225Sa, 1830Mo. ! City and County of Bristol, United Kingdom,
Evolution - the 1996 Eastercon ! BS8 1TW. Tel: 0117 928 7990.
Martin Cohen
I recall the lines as being
"Mussolini pulled his weenie"
"Now it will not work"
--
Marty Cohen (mco...@nrtc.northrop.com) - Not the guy in Philly
This is my opinion and is probably not Northrop Grumman's!
Use this material of your own free will
Alan Leary
> KKKatie (Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
>
..... the one I remember is
Hitler has only one brass ball
Goering has two, but very small
Himmler, has something similar
But poor old Goebels, has no balls at all