Speed for speed's sake (was potter vs Florine)
guido
did programs with both children and adults. I was routinely
amazed and a bit dismayed when absolute beginners, both young
and old (ok, older), would immediately want to race their friend
up the wall or be timed. Kids especially would ask "So how fast
can you get to the top?". I would explain that climbing isn't
necessarily about speed but style and fluid movement and they
would look at me with a blank stare. When I finished spewing my
wisdom they would give me a sly grin, wink, and say "Right. . .so
how fast can you get to the top?" I could only sigh.
Sean the Slow
N42461
>
>It seems to me that these speed climbers were just bored and
>created a new game in which to compete and make their
>names known. Since all of climbing is just a game anyway,
>this is certainly acceptable. The magazines have lapped it up
>since they're bored (boring) too.
Odd, those are the articles I like. Better for me than some Euro -wonderkind
"sending" 5.15/V GKW or M WTF.
>
>So are everyday, non-sponsored climbers jumping on the
>speed bandwagon?
I dunno, but I have heard "Pitch Summaries" asked for at campsite B.S.
sessions. By Germans no less. not abilities, or route quality, but sheer #'s in
a day. Seems a bit shallow. Not that I'm above being shallow.
>
>Personally, I feel I've competed directly enough in my life.
>Many years of swimming, cycling, basketball, tennis and
>running burned out my desire to beat the clock and/or the
>guy next to me.
>
Saw a really interesting Discovery Channel show on competitive eating the other
day...scarry.
>In climbing the competition is indirect and, at least for me,
>pretty far down the list of things I climb for (except on r.c ;-) ).
>Even so, I find myself being sucked into the speed-climbing
>vortex regularly; and I'm not sure I like it. Do I really care how
>fast someone does a route? Is doing a route really fast
>something I should aspire to? Should I feel like I've failed if
>I climb something in 6hrs. versus 4hrs? What if we stopped
>to have lunch and look at the view?
I did a bike ride up LCC many years back. Told a friend "It was just to do it,
not compete"...He said "We are all competing"....that bothered me like personal
insights often do. I hate that.
It won't matter a jot in 10 years anyway. Speed is here to stay as sure as
sport bolts. Be like the Native American. Use the pickup truck, and shun the
system that produced it.
nathan sweet
Sunshine McGillicutty
>
> Speed is here to stay as sure as
> sport bolts.
Ya know, Florine didn't invent speed climbing, nor does he
have a lock on hypercompetitiveness. Roper comes to mind for
example.
DMT
MMooney727
>
>For most of my climbing career (at least) climbing fast wasn't
>a goal in and of itself. Getting up a climb in good time was
>important for "good style", and for safety's sake, but no one
>had a stopwatch and reported their ascents to the tenth of a
>second.
>
<clip>
>- Lord Slime
I find it interesting in the same way that Bonds hitting 600 is interesting.
I couldn't compete if there were age groups.
x15x15
> Have you ever finished an 8-9 hour day of climbing at say 4:30pm, then had
> to wait to go to sleep until 8:30 - 9:00pm? I know if I go to bed once the
> climbing day is done, I'll be up at 2:00am and completely awake. But I'm
> stuck - completely blasted from miles of heavy hiking and many pitches of
> climbing - and there I am, unable to go to bed, but too tired to do
> anything. Drinking the traditional beer sure doesn't help me stay awake -
so
> I've taken to having a cup of coffee to keep me going until it's late
enough
> to crash.
the wacky weed will solve all your dilemnas.
x15x15
robDotCalm
significant records but have never been given the recognition I deserve.
My interest in speed climbing started in 1983 at Vedauwoo, when Curt Vogel
and I spent two days, six hours, 17 minutes and 4 seconds completing
Elevator, a 49.6-foot, 5.9 crack. This amazing record still stands. Candor,
however, requires the mention of two facts, which detract from our overall
accomplishment: we pulled the rope through reach night and the route is
underrated (the rating has subsequently been changed, which will keep Curt's
and my record intact).
Recently, recovering from some injuries, I climbed Queen Anne's Head, a
three pitch 5.5 outside of Boulder (out of modesty my partner requests that
her name not be mentioned). Our lack of conditioning showed as we completed
the climb in 39 minutes and 4 seconds. However, at the bottom of the rappel
I discovered that the rope didn't reach the ground (maybe a bit of rule
breaking here, as I still use a 45 meter rope). The ensuing 80-foot prussik
allowed us to achieve a respectable overall time, and proved we had not lost
all our skills during our enforced layoff.
Of course, Yosemite is the place to really compete and on what better climb
than Nutcracker on Manure Pile Buttress. In 1995, Becky Woodworth and I took
26 hours, 3 minutes and 18 seconds on the route. But, this is the big
leagues, and that record was broken a year later. I still look forward to
returning Yosemite and trying my hand once again on this.
I'm sure many of you would like to read more about many of my other speed
climbing successes, but this response has already taken too much time to
write. I can't afford another 2 days off work.
Larghetto,
Rob.calm
10 August 2002 10:25 MDT (-6 UMT)
Mad Dog
>I'm sure many of you would like to read more about many of my other speed
>climbing successes, but this response has already taken too much time to
>write. I can't afford another 2 days off work.
Fucking classic, Rob.
And to think that some dumbass Brit thinks there's nothing useful here.
Lord Slime
> Lord says...
> >Should I feel like I've failed if I climb something in 6hrs. versus 4hrs?
> personal best on some of them. It's a good way to do conditioning and stay
> motivated.
Sure, but the game and the rules are different. Most of the 'records' I've
read about are set on routes the climbers have done before, just like your
example above. How many times do you need to do a route before it's
just like swimming laps in a pool or riding around a velodrome?
> Like guiding inexperienced clients on Everest, attempting speed records on
> famous routes is a prescription for disaster. It's just a matter of time.
Obviously we just missed a seminal event when the Bubbster was
rescued off the Third last year.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> If you find yourself taking a
> couple hours for lunch in the middle of an ice climb, maybe you have
> cause for concern.
If I ever find myself on an ice climb, I'll have cause for concern!
Ice climbing is unpleasant and cuts into my skiing time.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> Lord Slime wrote:
> > It seems to me that these speed climbers were just bored and
> > created a new game in which to compete and make their
> > names known.
> Herson for one, who are relatively unknown and seemingly content to
> stay that way. Potter would be known for his other exploits (e.g.,
> solos) if he was not doing the speed thing. My guess is that Florine is
> the only one who regularly times himself and then publicly boasts about
> it.
I'd say you're guessing wrong. I skimmed through a Rock and Ice
the other day and it seemed like there were photos and times on
several of the pages. This has been going on for several years.
What about Bill Wright and Hans book on Speed Climbing? And
what about Sports Illustrated? Speed climbing is *common place*
if it gets into the mainstream mags.
> I doubt the everyday climber does it, since non-record times are generally
> of no interest.
Let me suggest Tony the Bubblehead. Remember Bubb's
claim to doing Crimson Crysalis base-to-base in three hours?
What was that? Eight years ago??
> > In climbing the competition is indirect and, at least for me,
> > pretty far down the list of things I climb for (except on r.c ;-) ).
>
> I can see not be competitive with others, but climbing's who nature seems
> at least self competitive or is that what you meant by indirect. I personally
> don't think I could remove all aspects of competitiveness from the sport.
No, you can't remove all competitiveness since humans are the
only ones who climb and then talk about it. (Do other primates
brag about their climbing achievements? What about that
rodent that ran past you on that heinous 5.12 R?)
But by 'indirect' I mean that, at least in the past, you either did
the route or you didn't. Yes, I know there's all sorts of left-
handed ways we compete (rating, seriousness, grade, redpoint,
flash, etc.) but there's all sorts of caveats, such as reach, finger
size, current fitness, money, partners, etc., to soften it.
Nowdays, one can say, "I did that in 2.35.03. I beat you."
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> >Lord Slime wrote:
> >So are everyday, non-sponsored climbers jumping on the
> >speed bandwagon?
>
> I dunno, but I have heard "Pitch Summaries" asked for at campsite B.S.
> sessions. By Germans no less. not abilities, or route quality, but sheer #'s in
> a day. Seems a bit shallow. Not that I'm above being shallow.
Good point. This reminds me of a quote by a (then) well-known cyclist
who's specialty was long distance time-trials (solo, against the clock).
After a significant hiatus from the sport, it was several months
before he won a race. His rationalization was, "I had to learn to
suffer again."
I don't want to suffer like that anymore.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> My interest in speed climbing started in 1983 at Vedauwoo, when Curt Vogel
> and I spent two days, six hours, 17 minutes and 4 seconds completing
> Elevator, a 49.6-foot, 5.9 crack. This amazing record still stands.
Hee hee.
So Rob, is the clock still running on Octogon, 5.9?
- Lord Slime
robDotCalm
attempts (including mine when it was rated 5.8).
Cheers,rob.calm
"Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote in message
news:3d57d980$0$189$7586...@news.frii.net...
Frank Stock
Amen. A gem of logic on rec.climbing.
Cheers,
Frank
> - Lord Slime
>
>
>
>
Jason Liebgott
> "Jason Liebgott"
> > <snip>
> > I've taken to having a cup of coffee to keep me going until it's late
> > enough to crash.
>
> the wacky weed will solve all your dilemnas.
>
> x15x15
Are you saying that it keeps you up? Man, you might want to discuss what's
in the blend with your dealer.
Nah, besides - I'm such a freaking square. I can barely hold my liquor these
days... I couldn't even find pot if I wanted to.
j.
Jason Liebgott
>
> Lord Slime wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that these speed climbers were just bored and
> > created a new game in which to compete and make their
> > names known.
>
> Florine seems to be in it for the fame, but there are several others,
> Herson for one, who are relatively unknown and seemingly content to
> stay that way. Potter would be known for his other exploits (e.g.,
> solos) if he was not doing the speed thing. My guess is that Florine is
> the only one who regularly times himself and then publicly boasts about
> it.
Spend some time with Hans and you won't say that. Seriously.
Hans takes his climbing seriously - he is a professional climber. It's a way
to make a living. Getting in the magazines is good for business, as is
holding records and winning comps. It's either that or holding down a day
job to pay for his expenses.
So he takes the same approach to his climbing that he would to running
track. He obviously enjoys it or he wouldn't be at the top of the field.
He's also safe enough in his decision making to stay alive. He's tried to
make climbing a legitimate and recognized sport - speed climbing in
particular is one aspect that he is good at. I've also seen him at
bouldering comps climbing V10. I don't consider him a friend or even an
aquaintance, but I sure don't think you can say he's in it for the fame
without knowing him.
Is Chris Sharma in it for the fame because he attempts the worlds hardest
routes? Why would Hans be in it for the fame if climbs long routes as
quickly as he can?
A screw it. As DMT would say, I'm tilting at fools.
j.
Jason Liebgott
> Yup, this Vedauwoo classic is the world's only unclimbed 5.9 despite many
> attempts (including mine when it was rated 5.8).
>
Three days to climb A Little Nukey (5.9-) in Courtright Resevoir... route
finding was a slight issue.
http://www.developer360.com/index88bc.html?page=trip_report_courtright2
j
Fred
[snip]
> Even so, I find myself being sucked into the speed-climbing
> vortex regularly; and I'm not sure I like it. Do I really care how
> fast someone does a route? Is doing a route really fast
> something I should aspire to? Should I feel like I've failed if
> I climb something in 6hrs. versus 4hrs? What if we stopped
> to have lunch and look at the view?
I'd say it's all good, as long as you do it for yourself and your own
pleasure.
Personnally, I don't climb fast by any standard (I'm a lazy, softbody
sloth) but I like to climb efficiently (whatever that means).
Cheers!
--
Marc from Quebec
http://pages.infinit.net/emah
Home of the Rec.climbers' Personnal Pages Directory
and the Climbing in Québec Page.
David Kennedy
> Spend some time with Hans and you won't say that. Seriously.
Actually I probably would. But lets see if I can add some comments without
getting myself into further trouble. What I was hoping to imply was that
there are many others, who are as good or better, who do not promote
themselves to such a level. Some are professionals some are not. It
seems that when one must work so hard at self promotion, then maybe one
does not deserve the recognition.
> So he takes the same approach to his climbing that he would to running
> track. He obviously enjoys it or he wouldn't be at the top of the field.
Top which field? Speed climbing is one small aspect of this sport. Kind
of something to turn to when one can't win difficulty events, or redpoint
routes at the current world class level. Climbing the same routes over an
over again in hopes of shaving off a few minutes/seconds in not all that
interesting. Maybe doing them all free would be more impressive and
worthy of the recognition.
> Is Chris Sharma in it for the fame because he attempts the worlds
> hardest routes?
I don't know what he is in it for, other than I assume he loves climbing,
as I am sure Florine does. But, I have never know Chris to brag about his
accomplishments. Maybe he does. Does he have a websight that I can check
his latest time on every boulder problem or route that he has ever
done? Though I do think Chris is one of the few who can make a living at
this sport without such promotion. His accomplishments seem to speak for
themselves. Or maybe Croft. So many of his accomplishments, that are
really amazing, go completely undocumented and he too makes a living from
the sport (though much is from guiding).
> Ah screw it. As DMT would say, I'm tilting at fools.
I always liked this quote, supposedly attributed to another self promoter
John Long, "I don't care what there saying as long as there talking about
me." So even this discussion may add to his fame and help him earn his
next paycheck.
Regards
Dave Kennedy
Department of Agricultural and Resource Economics
University of California, Davis
David Kastrup
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Jason Liebgott wrote:
> > Spend some time with Hans and you won't say that. Seriously.
>
> Actually I probably would. But lets see if I can add some comments without
> getting myself into further trouble. What I was hoping to imply was that
> there are many others, who are as good or better, who do not promote
> themselves to such a level. Some are professionals some are not. It
> seems that when one must work so hard at self promotion, then maybe one
> does not deserve the recognition.
>
> > So he takes the same approach to his climbing that he would to
> > running track. He obviously enjoys it or he wouldn't be at the top
> > of the field.
>
> Top which field? Speed climbing is one small aspect of this sport. Kind
> of something to turn to when one can't win difficulty events, or redpoint
> routes at the current world class level.
That's saying like running 400m is one small aspect of running. Kind
of something to turn to when one can't win Marathons, or cross country
runs at the current world class level.
> Climbing the same routes over an over again in hopes of shaving off
> a few minutes/seconds in not all that interesting.
Well, some people might prefer it to bouldering single moves over and
over again in hopes of not falling off sometime. There are people
that have been known to work for more than a year (including dieting)
just to get _through_ a route just once. I would estimate that trying
to get some other route's _flow_ in terms of speed might prove more
interesting to some people.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David....@t-online.de
A. Cairns
about Hans Florine, Jason Liebgott wrote:
> He's tried to make climbing a legitimate and recognized sport
Nhh? I hope that was written in the passion of the moment.
Andy Cairns
David Kennedy
> I'd say you're guessing wrong. I skimmed through a Rock and Ice
> the other day and it seemed like there were photos and times on
> several of the pages. This has been going on for several years.
Yeah, I was thinking a little myopicly when I said that.
> No, you can't remove all competitiveness since humans are the
> only ones who climb and then talk about it. (Do other primates
> brag about their climbing achievements? What about that
> rodent that ran past you on that heinous 5.12 R?)
One of the most impressive things I ever saw was a squirrel that
onsight soloed a 13b. It then went on to try the unredpointed
extension. It almost pulled if off, but ended up pitching off for a 60
footer into the tree below the route. Ran off into the talus
shaken but apparently unhurt. Maybe we should have written it up and sent
it in.
Melissa
Jason Liebgott
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Jason Liebgott wrote:
> > Spend some time with Hans and you won't say that. Seriously.
>
> Actually I probably would. But lets see if I can add some comments without
> getting myself into further trouble. What I was hoping to imply was that
> there are many others, who are as good or better, who do not promote
> themselves to such a level. Some are professionals some are not. It
> seems that when one must work so hard at self promotion, then maybe one
> does not deserve the recognition.
The problem with climbing is that you don't necessarily have somebody there
taking notes for you. It might just be you, as it often is with Hans. So
what? You want to have sponsors, you gotta talk about what you're doing,
right? Believe it or not, that's how people end up being sponsored by Petzl,
Prana, Metolius, etc.
I am not the type of person that could ever sell myself as a climber. But I
have a full-time job. I got the bills all paid for.
Side note:
I've listened to Hans's slide show and he honestly explained that he feels
no bitterness towards Potter - and his reaction when he learned that Potter
successfully jumped his attempt to do the linkup in a day was "COOL!" This
after he'd already done El Cap, had been beaten to the FA of the Linkup in a
day - goes ahead and does Half Dome at full-speed. He did even jokingly
mention that for the year prior he'd "bragged about how he'd do it first"
and then during his attempt he found out from a friend in El Cap Meadow.
Almost, like he probably had it coming for talking the smack.
Your take is that doing it fast isn't as impressive. Fine with me. But when
I see guys like Chris Mac wailing up hard walls that take hard climbers 5
days... I'm totally impressed. Watching Potter solo the nose on Master's of
Stone 5 was insane in my book! When I see guys pushing the limits on speed,
that's pretty cool. It is harder to climb fast. You don't have the luxury of
physical and mental rest.
> > So he takes the same approach to his climbing that he would to running
> > track. He obviously enjoys it or he wouldn't be at the top of the field.
>
> Top which field? Speed climbing is one small aspect of this sport. Kind
How many people have climbed Half Dome and El Cap SOLO in one day? Is
climbing 5.14 common place these days? He's won speed comps agains the
world's fastest climbers. He's a top climber in my book.
>
> > Is Chris Sharma in it for the fame because he attempts the worlds
> > hardest routes?
>
> I don't know what he is in it for, other than I assume he loves climbing,
> as I am sure Florine does. But, I have never know Chris to brag about his
> accomplishments. Maybe he does. Does he have a websight that I can check
www.climbxmedia.com follows him pretty closely. He has videos out dedicated
to himself. I like watching him climb. He's a pro climber and he makes a
living.
> I always liked this quote, supposedly attributed to another self promoter
> John Long, "I don't care what there saying as long as there talking about
> me." So even this discussion may add to his fame and help him earn his
> next paycheck.
AMEN!
Melissa
David Kennedy <ken...@primal.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Jason Liebgott wrote:
>> Spend some time with Hans and you won't say that. Seriously.
>
>Actually I probably would. But lets see if I can add some comments
>without
>getting myself into further trouble. What I was hoping to imply
>was that
>there are many others, who are as good or better, who do not promote
>themselves to such a level. Some are professionals some are not.
As far as speedclimbing goes, I don't think that you can make an argument
that there are "many others, who are as good or better". There are a limited
number of climbers who are even in his league, and it would be difficult
to say that any are indisputably better.
It surprises me how openly people talk smack the personalities about well-known
climbers whom they've never met. When you get to be well known the media
will create a personality for you based on whatever sound bites you've given
them. Maybe there is some truth in this public image, but it might be such
a small part of the picture as to barely warrent notice when you're actually
around the person.
Hans sees open competition as a healthy motivator and something that when
structured can help to fund full-time climbing for those who become 'top-ranked'
according to defined although somewhat arbitrary criteria. You can read
more about the 'competative philosophy' at ccrank.com. I've never read about
Hans bringing unsportsmanlike competition into climbing, and I've never seem
him behave that way myself.
When I read Dean's quote about Hans being like a dog humping his leg..well,
I laughed. Then I thought that he must be kind of a jerk to go on record
w/ an SI reporter saying such a thing. But, I reminded myself that I don't
know Dean at all, and the pendulum swings both ways...quotes and scenarios
are taken out of context (hard to imagine a good context for that though)
to paint the picture and provide the drama that helps make the rags sell.
This weekend I brought the issue up with my parnter who has climbed with
Dean quite a bit. He said that Dean was so embarassed about the quote...that
the reported kept goding him over and over until he lashed out at which point
she thanked him for the interview and gathered her things.
Someone painted a picture of Hans as being competative and Dean (or Chris
Sharma for that matter) not once upon a time. But they both make there living
that way, and as long as one of them hold a high profile record, the other
is probably going to come back to break it and bring photographers with them
when they do. Did Timmy O'Neil not write a cover story for one of the mags
re: their last record on the Nose?
Melissa
Mike Garrison
>
> So are everyday, non-sponsored climbers jumping on the
> speed bandwagon?
All my attempts at simulating speedclimbing relate to safety
(daylight, snow conditions, weather patterns, etc.). I'm
usually out climbing because I want to be away from things
like clocks.
I have been known to set a few speed records, though. For
instance, when the Marblemount Cafe closes at 8pm and I'm
just getting back to the car at 7pm, way up the Cascade
River Road.... [Mike Garrison, World Rally Championship
wannabe]
> Personally, I feel I've competed directly enough in my life.
> Many years of swimming, cycling, basketball, tennis and
> running burned out my desire to beat the clock and/or the
> guy next to me.
I always liked baseball and ultimate frisbee. No clocks to
beat.
-Mike
Dingus Milktoast
"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote
> It surprises me how openly people talk smack the personalities about
well-known
> climbers whom they've never met.
Why? They are public figures. It goes with the territory. Have you ever
gossiped about some movie star etc etc. ? Politican? You get my drift. Its
human nature and it's been going on for a helluva lot longer than you or I
have graced the planet.
DMT
Brian in SLC
> I did a bike ride up LCC many years back. Told a friend "It was just to do it,
> not compete"...He said "We are all competing"....that bothered me like personal
> insights often do. I hate that.
Hmmm...jars an interesting memory for me...
A bunch of us used to do the bike ride DOWN LCC. The trick was to see
if you could go all the way down canyon from Alta without touchin'
your brakes....really really dumb. I topped out somewhere north of 55
on the mountain bike...glad I wasn't on a skinny tire road bike...just
about lost it at the bottom of 7 sisters...
Interesting point Tim makes in the article when he says maybe it isn't
too fast or too dangerous until someone dies...
Silly silly boyz...
Brian in SLC
Mad Dog
>It surprises me how openly people talk smack the personalities about well-known
>climbers whom they've never met.
It's probably easier to tell lies about people you've never met.
>When I read Dean's quote about Hans being like a dog humping his leg..well,
>I laughed. Then I thought that he must be kind of a jerk to go on record
>w/ an SI reporter saying such a thing.
My thoughts precisely. I say that, knowing that I've done similar things to
poor, unsuspecting rec.climbers, also knowing that SI gets a bit more coverage
and that I'm so much less important.
>But, I reminded myself that I don't
>know Dean at all, and the pendulum swings both ways...quotes and scenarios
>are taken out of context (hard to imagine a good context for that though)
>to paint the picture and provide the drama that helps make the rags sell.
Rewind the clock a few years... I drove two hours to pull plastic with Marty at
the gym in Grand Rapids. Hans was setting routes for the class he was to teach
the following day. He was polite to everyone and just did his work. An hour
later, he asked me for a belay, then climbed up with us for a while and asked us
which routes we thought were the best in the gym. He had a great, positive and
humble attitude through it all. I saw zero of the Hollywood legend. He was a
regular guy, even though he could climb circles around us and was getting paid
to do it.
The clock spins forward. I'm about to solo up North Chimney with over a hundred
pounds of iron. I get up early, eat a fast, cold breakfast and get to work.
Dean and his partner fly by, and cast a glance my way as I might when looking at
a large rock that's fallen on the roadway. They fire D1 by the time I lug my
shit to Broadway.
Which one is the better man? Fuck if I know. Singular encounters are about as
meaningful as those that mag reporters get with those rich and famous. I'll
never be in a position to know what it real in their worlds. I doubt that all
but the very best reporters ever get inside either.
Melissa
Agreed.
I actually cut a big chunk out of the original post because I couldn't quite
figure out how to say it right, but it was something like this...
One of the cool things about climbing is that the people at 'the top' are
almost as likely to end up sharing a campsite and a can of beans with you
as any random gumby. Trashing them based on media gossip can be quite a
bit different than trashing some hollywood star in that one of their friends
is bound to read your post if they don't read it themself, and chances are,
if you are actually getting out and climbing, that one day you will run into
the person for whom you have so publicly spewed your bile. If they turn
out to be nice, helpful fellow climbers as they so often do, won't you feel
like a big weenie?
All of that said...even if we were talking about Madonna or Tom Cruise here,
I would feel the same. They chose to be in the spotlight, so it's expected
that people like me will read about them in the media and talk about what
they've read. But even if someone is a huge holywood star, I'd say that
it's unkind and irresponsible and unkind to write about negatively their
personalities in a public forum when you've never met them.
Theresa Ho
>"David Kennedy" wrote ...
>> Florine seems to be in it for the fame, but there are several others,
>> Herson for one, who are relatively unknown and seemingly content to
>> stay that way. Potter would be known for his other exploits (e.g.,
>> solos) if he was not doing the speed thing. My guess is that Florine is
>> the only one who regularly times himself and then publicly boasts about
>> it.
>
>Spend some time with Hans and you won't say that. Seriously.
Yeah. I'm not sure that it would even take that much time. I was
reminded of this story when Melissa started that thread on encounters with
famous people a while ago, and never got around to typing it in. I
thought it might make a good contrast to this weird image of Hans running
around pounding his chest all the time...
I was climbing in the gym with two friends, when Hans came up and asked if
we would mind a forth. My friend, K, who was a rank novice at the time
ended up swapping belays with him. A few days later we were telling K
about El Cap records, and Tom says, "Well, you know that guy you were
climbing with the other day in the gym? That's Hans Florine. He did the
Nose in sub-4 hours." K's eyes went big and she laughed. Aparently they
had been chatting, and when she asked him what he did, he said that he
helped organize some events but "mostly just climbed". He said it in
enough of an offhand way that she asked him if he climbed outdoors much.
He didn't miss a beat. "Yeah, as much as I can." Do you climb in
Yosemite at all? "Yeah, I get out there quite a bit." End of
conversation - they move on to other topics. So, K was a bit
retrospectively embarassed at having asked that particular set of
questions, but the thing that I've always thought was cool, is that there
was no lengthy discourse on how much or fast he climbed, no mention of
record setting, sponsorship, etc., and apparently no angst at not being
immediately recognized either. He was (as he really was that day) just
this guy in the gym looking for a climbing partner.
Oh, another thing...
Slime wrote:
>Even so, I find myself being sucked into the speed-climbing
>vortex regularly; and I'm not sure I like it. Do I really care how
>fast someone does a route? Is doing a route really fast
>something I should aspire to? Should I feel like I've failed if
>I climb something in 6hrs. versus 4hrs? What if we stopped
>to have lunch and look at the view?
The way I see it... there are two aspects of competition. The aspect that
pushes you to challenge yourself, and the aspect that makes you feel like
sh*t when you don't make the cut. I feel like the point at which
competition - speed climbing, pushing technical difficulty, whatever -
transitions from the first to the second aspect is when it gets unhealthy
and you/I should find something else to do - or something else to focus on
for a while. Trying to be fast is a real kick for me right now. I'm not
fast, in fact even in comparison with myself a few years ago I have the
blinding speed of a banana slug, and the aerobic capacity of a sea urchin
these days (ugh, I'm working on it). But Trying to be fast makes me
laugh, inspires me to train, and adds something new to that route that
I've done so many times before. When it stops doing that, maybe I'll
switch to surfing, or big wall climbing, or god forbid, mountaineering.
Climbing fast is not about trying to establish some absolute, universal,
pecking order, proving ground, measuring stick. It's a GAME, like
Twister, or jump rope, or that weird game where you stand on one foot and
try to pick up an ever shorter grocery bag with your teeth. Not everyone
has to play, but for gods sakes if you are going to play at least have
some fun with it.
Besides, Slime, you're plenty fast. Why sweat the small stuff?
T
David Kennedy
> You want to have sponsors, you gotta talk about what you're doing,
> right? Believe it or not, that's how people end up being sponsored by Petzl,
> Prana, Metolius, etc.
Yes, provided that they are doing something worthy of sponsorship.
> I am not the type of person that could ever sell myself as a climber.
Nor are most people, even if they have the talent. I think most find out
that a carfully selected job afords them better climbing opportunities in
the long run without having to worry about such things as publicity.
> Your take is that doing it fast isn't as impressive. Fine with me. But when
> I see guys like Chris Mac wailing up hard walls that take hard climbers 5
> days... I'm totally impressed. Watching Potter solo the nose on Master's of
> Stone 5 was insane in my book! When I see guys pushing the limits on speed,
> that's pretty cool. It is harder to climb fast. You don't have the luxury of
> physical and mental rest.
Doing a route that you have totally wired slightly faster in not
particularly impressive. ONeill and Potter, with much less milage
on the route, smashing the record with a time of 3 hrs 24 minutes and 4
thenths of a second is impressive though. Even if I did not know about
those 4 tenths of a second. As well as what Potter, Florine
and Schneider managed to do in Patagonia. Was that stuff reported down to
the tenth of a second?
> Is climbing 5.14 common place these days?
Absolutley, people with full time jobs climb 5.14, free and hold speed
records on El Cap and do other stuff that might have been
considered world class in the not to distant past. This is how I got
invloved in this, I commented that there were others who did very
impressive things (much of it going completely unnoticed except
to friends) without such nonsense as timing themselves down to the tenth
of a second. Maybe my circle of friends is too small, as others have
mentioned a growing trend towards reporting exact times on every possible
route no matter how meanlingless an assent. Such is the evolution of
sports.
> He's won speed comps agains the world's fastest climbers.
Yeah, but speed climbing competitions are kind of lame. Difficulty is a
much better judge of climbing talent, problem is that it is boring too
watch.
> (With regards to Chris Sharma) I like watching him climb. He's a pro
> climber and he makes a living.
Quite humbly may I add.
Mad Dog
>One of the cool things about climbing is that the people at 'the top' are
>almost as likely to end up sharing a campsite and a can of beans with you
>as any random gumby.
Truth be told, one is MORE likely to encounter famous climbers than gumbies if
one hangs at crags that the famous visit - simply because the famous climb more
often than the average gumbie and limit their agendas to the best.
>If they turn out to be nice, helpful fellow climbers as they so often
>do, won't you feel like a big weenie?
Regardless of all that, I always feel like a big weenie. Remember Chris Weaver
(Dr. Ascii) ? The day before he and I headed up Epi, we had a fat-saturated
dinner in town, then stopped by to pick up a nut tool at DRS. Fred was talking
to a shorter, very tanned dude with a big smile and when Fred asked us what we
were up to next, I said it was Epi. The tanned guy said he had just done it
that day. We talked a bit then left and then Chris told me who he was. I was
shocked becase the sun had done evil things to his smile since our last
encounter and I couldn't believe I didn't recognize him. Holy cow, what a
weenie I felt like then. How could I not recognize one of my idols? Simple:
I'd focused on the legend, over the years, and not the person himself.
Shame on me.
N42461
>He said that Dean was so embarassed about the quote...that
>the reported kept goding him over and over until he lashed out at which point
>she thanked him for the interview and gathered her things.
She worked the Money Quote for the article. What more did she need?
Dont ever talk to reporters. Never let a film crew into your home. Barbra
Walters is not the well mannered caring person you see on the box. Trust me on
this one.
nathan sweet
Nafod40
> and I spent two days, six hours, 17 minutes and 4 seconds completing
> Elevator, a 49.6-foot, 5.9 crack
Bravura performance. I guess the opposite of speed climbing is siege
climbing. I am about 5 years into this overhanging toprope problem in
central PA. It is a head-to-head battle between improving skill and
encroaching middle-aged entropy. I'd quit on it, but I keep getting a
little bit higher every time I try.
I guess I could always be like my climbing heroes in tighty-tights and
chip it down to 5.6...
Mike
David Kastrup
Well, two times ago when in the Eifel, I tried my hand at
"Monsterbond", VII+ (yes, I put in a toprope from the next route, a
VI/VII. Call me a weenie). Failed around the first bolt, where I did
not have the power and reach necessary to get to a lousy but necessary
big pebble (Eifel is pebbles all over) in seriously overhanging
terrain. Then Hans Diefenbach came over. Hans has been climbing
Eifel when I was born already. He reaches about to my chin and does
not at all have my ape index. I have seen him give up on some
reasonably manageable V+ routes. A skinny old man with missing teeth,
in tights looking ridiculous. Well, he moved here and there,
suggesting different stances, squatting around in rest positions right
around in the crux while trying to think how this could be easier for
me.
Not that it helped.
At least next time I was able to find a rest position in the crux as
well which saved me dynoing with long reach to an uncertain hold. I
had three hangs all in all, but just because of searching around too
long for holds (Eifel conglomerate has hundreds, of which 98% are
crap). If I knew that route as well as Diefe, not needing to look
for those holds, I know I could send it.
Considering that last year I was in a shape where I got through
including having the time to search for the holds, this is not
entirely satisfactory, but at least better than nothing.
robDotCalm
OnWard) climbing. The bigger your time numbers are and the lower the
difficulty of the climb, the higher is your composite score. The result is
that as most of us get older, your so-called middle-aged entropy, the better
we get. Most 80 year olds, even those who train hard, can do better than the
average 20 year old.
Maybe I should write up a technique guide for score improvement along with
the rules (all competitive sports require arbitrary rules). E.g., one of
them states that each climber is allowed one defecation per climb and the
clock will keep running. There are precise rules as to the maximum time
allowed depending upon whether this is executed on the ground or en route.
Cheers,
RobKelman.calm
13 August 2002 07:59 MDT (-6 UMT)
Lord Slime
> Climbing fast is ... a GAME, like
> Twister, or jump rope, or that weird game where you stand on one foot and
> try to pick up an ever shorter grocery bag with your teeth. Not everyone
> has to play, but for gods sakes if you are going to play at least have
> some fun with it.
> Besides, Slime, you're plenty fast. Why sweat the small stuff?
'Cause I trying to decide if I want to play that game, or is that
grocery bag just as bad as Powerball (ie. a tax on stupid people).
But on the other hand, it seems to me that I did 10 or 12 pitches
with a banana slug in Eldo one daym so speed isn't all bad.
- Lord Slime
Darin Lang
> In climbing the competition is indirect and, at least for me,
> pretty far down the list of things I climb for (except on r.c ;-) ).
You protest too much. While indirect, the competition is always
there, whether you you want to recognize it or not. It may not be
overt, and you may only be "competing" with yourself, but you're still
competing. I'd say, in fact, that the vast majority of climbers that
I have met are actually hypercompetitive. We generally love to "win",
however that is defined: first ascent, first trad lead, first
5.whatever, first in the group to send a bouldering problem, first to
hike to the base of the climb.
It could just be the company I keep, but just in the last few years,
I've found myself doing the following, for reasons I can't explain:
- "bowling" with rocks and nalgene bottles, and sadly, keeping score;
- bringing bigger steaks on each road trip, in the hope that mine
might be the biggest one cooking on the fire (or, this year, the
stove)
- knee-deep in a bratwurst-eating contest, with no idea how it
started and no way to get out without losing face
- drunk and bouldering by headlamp, in sandals, well after midnight
- climbing slabs no-handed, and marking my "high point" with chalk
- seeing how many "sine waves" I can make in the rope between the
ground and the anchor
- freezing my ass off in camp, because one other person was still
wearing a T-shirt
- making "rules" for climbs that I had no business being on in the
first place - "that's two hangs, dude - you're coming down!"
- working a sit-start "bouldering" problem - on the side of my
friend's truck where the bed meets the cab
If you think you're not "competitive", ask yourself whether you've
ever done something similar. It's all in good fun, usually everyone
is supportive of the others, and maybe nobody *really* cares, but the
competition is always out there. It's quite disingenuous to suggest
otherwise, and equally disingenuous to criticize those who are good
enough climbers to be able to take this competition directly to the
rock.
DJL
Dingus Milktoast
"Darin Lang" <youlead...@hotmail.com> wrote
> but the
> competition is always out there. It's quite disingenuous to suggest
> otherwise, and equally disingenuous to criticize those who are good
> enough climbers to be able to take this competition directly to the
> rock.
Life is competition. Period.
DMT
Mike Garrison
Nah. Reproduction is competition. Life is just the mechanism
for reproduction.
-Mike
Jason Liebgott
> Dingus Milktoast wrote:
> >
> > "Darin Lang" wrote
> >
> > > but the
> > > competition is always out there. It's quite disingenuous to suggest
> > > otherwise, and equally disingenuous to criticize those who are good
> > > enough climbers to be able to take this competition directly to the
> > > rock.
> >
> > Life is competition. Period.
>
> Nah. Reproduction is competition. Life is just the mechanism
> for reproduction.
>
> -Mike
I guess that makes us all winners.
jason "the only comp I ever won" liebgott
Melissa
Melissa
Jason Liebgott
"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d594e21$1...@eCompute.org...
LOL! No, I was the fastest about 9 months before I was born. :-)
We all won that race... and no non-fur kids yet.
j.
BenignVanilla
news:a81d1ebf.02081...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
>
> It could just be the company I keep, but just in the last few years,
> I've found myself doing the following, for reasons I can't explain:
>
> - "bowling" with rocks and nalgene bottles, and sadly, keeping score;
> - bringing bigger steaks on each road trip, in the hope that mine
> might be the biggest one cooking on the fire (or, this year, the
> stove)
> - knee-deep in a bratwurst-eating contest, with no idea how it
> started and no way to get out without losing face
> - drunk and bouldering by headlamp, in sandals, well after midnight
> - climbing slabs no-handed, and marking my "high point" with chalk
> - seeing how many "sine waves" I can make in the rope between the
> ground and the anchor
> - freezing my ass off in camp, because one other person was still
> wearing a T-shirt
> - making "rules" for climbs that I had no business being on in the
> first place - "that's two hangs, dude - you're coming down!"
> - working a sit-start "bouldering" problem - on the side of my
> friend's truck where the bed meets the cab
>
Yeah, but I bet you can't drink a gallon of milk in under 61 minutes.
BV.
Bill Wright
> Jason Liebgott selectively edited wrote:
> > When I see guys pushing the limits on speed,
> > that's pretty cool. It is harder to climb fast. You don't have the luxury of
> > physical and mental rest.
>
> Doing a route that you have totally wired slightly faster in not
> particularly impressive.
Maybe not to you. Maybe not to anybody. If the record is a "hard"
record, then it is very impressive. To everyone. The 100-meter world
record is a "hard" record. It is rarely broken and it is news when it
is even approached. Maybe no climbing speed records are "hard" records
yet. Probably not. Though even approaching a sub-4-hour time on the
Nose is impressive. It is particularly impressive to most in the
climbing community. Maybe just not you.
> ONeill and Potter, with much less milage
> on the route, smashing the record with a time of 3 hrs 24 minutes and 4
> thenths of a second is impressive though. Even if I did not know about
> those 4 tenths of a second. As well as what Potter, Florine
> and Schneider managed to do in Patagonia. Was that stuff reported down to
> the tenth of a second?
Since you harp on this tenth of a second thing, I must correct you. No
one is timing these things to a tenth of a second. I've never seen it
in print and if you have, then it was a typo. The starts and finishes
are not well defined enough and no one gets this hyped up. Not even
Hans. Frequently times are just reported to the minute.
> > Is climbing 5.14 common place these days?
>
> Absolutley, people with full time jobs climb 5.14, free and hold speed
> records on El Cap and do other stuff that might have been
> considered world class in the not to distant past. This is how I got
Speed records are still world-class and probably 5.14 as well. But
5.14 will not always be world class, but speed records will. At least
ones that are avidly pursued by the best. They will continue to fall,
of course, but always will be world class.
> invloved in this, I commented that there were others who did very
> impressive things (much of it going completely unnoticed except
> to friends) without such nonsense as timing themselves down to the tenth
> of a second. Maybe my circle of friends is too small, as others have
Once again, the only one using the tenth of a second nonsense is
yourself...
> > He's won speed comps agains the world's fastest climbers.
>
> Yeah, but speed climbing competitions are kind of lame. Difficulty is a
> much better judge of climbing talent, problem is that it is boring too
> watch.
What a bunch of crap. I suppose you can also define who is the best
athlete in the world? Michael Jordan or Lance Armstrong? Difficulty is
a better judge of difficulty climbing talent. Speed is a better judge
of speed talent. The best alpinist in the world (arguably the best
overall climbers) are known more for moving over difficult terrain
fast, then freeing the utmost difficult moves. Hence, I think your
statement above is completely backwards. But my point is that you
can't say something so definitive like that. Speed competitions are
not lame and they are more entertaining than difficulty if you believe
ESPN's marketing department.
Dave, you sound like a climber who is threatened by speed climbing and
goes out of his way to put it down. I've seen many climbers like that.
I don't know why, but it appears that speed climbing threatens your
self-evaluation. It shouldn't. It is clearly a valid pasttime, but
maybe not your thing. That's fine. No need to make hollow statments
about why it is inferior. It is just different. Most people that give
this sort a thing a try find it to be incredibly invigorating and fun.
Not all the time, but sometimes, and I find this amazing that I have
to continually state such a view, going fast is fun.
Bill
Mike Garrison
>
> Dont ever talk to reporters.
I wouldn't go that far. I used to be a reporter, in fact
(college newspaper).
Just keep in mind that you and the reporter probably have
different priorities. You want the reporter to tell *your*
story. The reporter wants to tell an *interesting* story. If
your story is both interesting and true, you are probably
golden. But anything you say can and will be used against
you, if it is in the service of providing an interesting
story....
Another secret is that we all say stupid things and make
silly errors. Most of the time reporters don't quote them.
If you ever get quoted saying something really stupid, you
can usually assume the reporter wanted you to look bad.
-Mike
Mr.T
> > You want to have sponsors, you gotta talk about what you're doing,
> > right? Believe it or not, that's how people end up being sponsored by Petzl,
> > Prana, Metolius, etc.
>
> Yes, provided that they are doing something worthy of sponsorship.
>
Who is to say what is worthy of sponsorship, if not the ones who are
putting up the money? A sponsored climber is by definition deemed
worthy of sponsorship. A climber who has been sponsored as long as
Hans has been proven worthy.
A. Cairns
Darin Lang wrote:
> - knee-deep in a bratwurst-eating contest, with no idea how it
> started and no way to get out without losing face
> If you think you're not "competitive", ask yourself whether you've
> ever done something similar.
Horsecock! (Did I get to say it first, here?)
For local exercise there is a steep trail, the Grouse Grind. 2800 feet of
vertical in maybe 30 minutes if you can run it. There is a tram you can ride
down. If you buy a season pass you can swipe it in front of a timer at the start
of the trail and another at the top and your time appears on a monitor in the
Lodge.
I try to do it for the exercise, not the time, but always find myself pushing
hard near the top, even though I never officially time myself. It's all about
trying to catch someone ahead or stay ahead of someone behind.
On a much less-used parallel trail I saw a guy ahead of me and picked up my
pace. The guy in front was breathing like a steam locomotive so I thought I had
him. Wrong. I kept him in view, though, and after he had swiped his card for an
official time he came back over and congratulated me and told me I had pushed
him to a personal best and he asked if I would be interested in joining an
Eco-Challenge team for people over 50 that he was trying to create.
So from one point of view I was feeling pretty good about myself, while from
another I couldn't quite keep up with a 69 year-old making his fourth trip up
the hill that day.
Andy Cairns
Kreighton
> ...in the last few years,
> I've found myself doing the following, for reasons I can't explain:
> - bringing bigger steaks on each road trip, in the hope that mine
> might be the biggest one cooking on the fire (or, this year, the
> stove)
You can't even win the biggest asparagus contest, man.
> - knee-deep in a bratwurst-eating contest, with no idea how it
> started and no way to get out without losing face
I'm sorry? I didn't see you around to pound down that fifth brat for a
proud $0.75 - but then again, my head was between my knees. You were
runnin' for the tent after the third brat- admit it.
> - drunk and bouldering by headlamp, in sandals, well after midnight
Dynoing is more like it, directly over the lamp, no less, with a beer
bottle between your teeth.
> - seeing how many "sine waves" I can make in the rope between the
> ground and the anchor
> - freezing my ass off in camp, because one other person was still
> wearing a T-shirt
> - making "rules" for climbs that I had no business being on in the
> first place - "that's two hangs, dude - you're coming down!"
> - working a sit-start "bouldering" problem - on the side of my
> friend's truck where the bed meets the cab
As for the rest - I'm ashamed to admit how many of these contests I
was a part of, and even more sadly, how many tend to occur in a single
trip... Either way, competition for the sake of competition is good
clean fun, but anyone who can't send the side of the truck is a total
hosebag.
kreighton
Darin Lang
"Kreighton" <kreighto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I'm sorry? I didn't see you around to pound down that fifth brat for a
> proud $0.75 - but then again, my head was between my knees. You were
> runnin' for the tent after the third brat- admit it.
That wasn't the tent I was running for ...
DJL
Michael Boos
gals and guys!
Thanks a lot to everybody having contributed!
--
*********************
L. Michael Boos
CH-8001 Zuerich
*********************
to e-mail remove 4 dots from left to right
Karl Baba
I have observed Hans being tremendously supportive of a lot of people.
He is upfront about his competition and promotion but isn't selfish
about it. He opens his life and home to a wide variety of folks and
he's always been great to me.
I don't know Dean as well but have heard good things. The SI article
was hype and inflated bullshit. Journalistic shame in shades of yellow
for entertainment value rather than informative value.
Ultimately, Hans will lose the speed game since he's way older than
Dean and has a family to care for to boot. He still made some
impressive contributions to speed climbing and efficient climbing. Is
Arnold Palmer put down by the contributions of Tiger Woods?
Dean and Hans are great. I've heard a lot darker spew in Yosemite over
the years than from those guys
Peace
Karl
--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/
Dawn Alguard
>
> If you ever get quoted saying something really stupid, you
> can usually assume the reporter wanted you to look bad.
I don't know about that. Have you ever been on the other side of the
reporter equation? I have a few times, not because I killed anyone or
won the lottery or anything, just really, really minor stuff usually
related to community theater. Anyway, I've never been quoted as
saying anything remotely like what I actually said. Ever. Newspaper
reporters aren't recording you, they aren't even taking notes, and
they don't know the subject. They just go back to their desks and
write whatever fool thing they think sounds good to them and then
stick your name on it. I don't believe there's malice in it usually -
just sloppiness and not caring enough to get it right.
Now television, you're being recorded, so you'd think they'd get it
right, right? Last night I saw a bit on the news where they were
interviewing the mother (grandmother?) of a young girl who'd been shot
in the face by a passing drive-by shooter. This happened a while ago
and the person who did the shooting and the guy who was being shot at
have both been convicted now and sentenced (and the girl lived).
This woman was amazing. "Did you believe his apology was sincere?"
"Oh yes. I could tell by his body language that he was sincere."
"Can you ever forgive him?" "We've already forgiven him. We're just
trying to move on how." Etc. Then they go back to the studio and the
anchor guy wraps the story up by saying something like "The family
says that a 15 year sentence isn't nearly long enough considering what
this little girl will suffer for the rest of her life." The family
didn't say a stinking thing even close to that. The family was being
rational, charitable, forgiving and minding their own business. But
you have to give the story the spin everyone expects it to have, I
guess. If you can't get someone calling for blood on tape, you can
just attribute it to them later.
Dawn
Mike Garrison
>
> Mike Garrison wrote:
> >
> > If you ever get quoted saying something really stupid, you
> > can usually assume the reporter wanted you to look bad.
>
> I don't know about that. Have you ever been on the other side of the
> reporter equation? I have a few times, not because I killed anyone or
> won the lottery or anything, just really, really minor stuff usually
> related to community theater. Anyway, I've never been quoted as
> saying anything remotely like what I actually said. Ever. Newspaper
> reporters aren't recording you, they aren't even taking notes, and
> they don't know the subject. They just go back to their desks and
> write whatever fool thing they think sounds good to them and then
> stick your name on it. I don't believe there's malice in it usually -
> just sloppiness and not caring enough to get it right.
It's ... complicated.
I've read transcripts literally from tape. People just don't
speak the way they write. We skip words, slur them,
transpose them, and intersperse meaningless placeholders
like "um", "you know", "like", etc.
Even Neil Armstrong skipped a word when he was giving the
very first speech ever from the surface of the moon: "One
small step for [a] man; one giant leap for mankind."
As a reporter I took notes and (rarely) tape recorded
people. Taking notes mainly consists of jotting down enough
of the important nouns and verbs to get the meaning and
style pretty close to correct. You fill in the little words
from memory, and sometimes memory plays tricks on you.
> This woman was amazing. "Did you believe his apology was sincere?"
> "Oh yes. I could tell by his body language that he was sincere."
> "Can you ever forgive him?" "We've already forgiven him. We're just
> trying to move on how." Etc. Then they go back to the studio and the
> anchor guy wraps the story up by saying something like "The family
> says that a 15 year sentence isn't nearly long enough considering what
> this little girl will suffer for the rest of her life." The family
> didn't say a stinking thing even close to that. The family was being
> rational, charitable, forgiving and minding their own business.
Some possibilities:
They only had good footage on the charitable family member,
but the vindictive quotes were actually in the majority.
They felt there was equal sentiment inside the family for
forgiveness and for punishment, so they told one side with
the tape and the other side with a summary.
They had their own spin, and were determined to present it
(which is what I think really happened, since that is common
in journalism and much more common in broadcast media).
> you have to give the story the spin everyone expects it to have, I
> guess. If you can't get someone calling for blood on tape, you can
> just attribute it to them later.
Yup. Just like all the media coverage at Mt. Hood this
spring. The local media here really were desperate to spin
it into the tale of reckless climbers forcing the public
into paying for their rescue.
By the way, the report is now out on the Hood accident. The
conclusion: no one made any negligent errors; one climber
just fell in a spot where a fall must not occur.
-Mike
Steven Cherry
>I've read transcripts literally from tape. People just don't
>speak the way they write. We skip words, slur them,
>transpose them, and intersperse meaningless placeholders
>like "um", "you know", "like", etc.
>As a reporter I took notes and (rarely) tape recorded
>people. Taking notes mainly consists of jotting down enough
>of the important nouns and verbs to get the meaning and
>style pretty close to correct. You fill in the little words
>from memory, and sometimes memory plays tricks on you.
The real question is whether you construct a quote that represents what
the person meant to say. The best way of assuring yourself of that is
to check the quote with the person. Sometimes the person wishes they
hadn't said what they did in fact say. On those occasions, as a journalist
you have to ask whether the person seemed to believe the quote you're
going to attribute to them, and whether it's fair to attribute it to them.
These are two things I wouldn't expect a Sports Illustrated reporter
to do, by the way.
>Some possibilities:
>They only had good footage on the charitable family member,
>but the vindictive quotes were actually in the majority.
Then they shouldn't have used the good footage they had. Or at least,
included in the *story*, not just the summary, the other point of
view. No justification here.
>They felt there was equal sentiment inside the family for
>forgiveness and for punishment, so they told one side with
>the tape and the other side with a summary.
Ditto.
>They had their own spin, and were determined to present it
>(which is what I think really happened, since that is common
>in journalism and much more common in broadcast media).
That's just crap journalism. The fact that it's done all the time
doesn't excuse it.
-steven-
--
<ste...@panix.com>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I do not write for such dull elves, as have not a great deal
of ingenuity themselves. -- Jane Austen
Dawn Alguard
>
> I've read transcripts literally from tape. People just don't
> speak the way they write. We skip words, slur them,
> transpose them, and intersperse meaningless placeholders
> like "um", "you know", "like", etc.
In my experience, reporters can easily change a statement like
(totally making this up) "This is a great script that goes beyond the
average morality play, exploring a full range of human behaviors and
our expectations for them" into "This is a great morality play!" the
actor said.
> Taking notes mainly consists of jotting down enough
> of the important nouns and verbs to get the meaning and
> style pretty close to correct.
People who understand the subject probably do a better job of this.
Certainly the mainstream reporters covering climbing accidents (or any
climbing subject) do a bad job of it. You don't think people involved
in rescues say things as asinine as what is typically reported, do
you?
Someone asked me the other day, with respect to my TRs, "How do you
remember what everyone said?"
"Dramatic license," I told her. (Duh.) I have the advantage of
knowing both the characters and the situation intimately and I still
have someone complain every now and then that I got them wrong.
Dawn
Lg
>snip<
> Be like the Native American. Use the pickup truck, and shun the
> system that produced it.
>
> nathan sweet
Oh that's nice nathan, do you teach your kids this too? (rhetorical)
Lg
N42461
>> Be like the Native American. Use the pickup truck, and shun the
>> system that produced it.
>>
>> nathan sweet
>
>Oh that's nice nathan, do you teach your kids this too? (rhetorical)
>
Well, yeah. Along with other bits of wisdom, like "Never let a (person of any
interesting sex) know how much money is in your pocket" , "Always carry one
more knife than you'll admit to" , "A host's duty is to make your guests
comfortable, a guest's duty is live as if you are backpacking" or "If offered
food (or beer), take it, you don't *really* know when there will be more"
It's a tough world out there Homes. I don't lie to kids.
nathan sweet
Lg
Even tougher on them when your passing off crap for wisdom.
Lg
>
> nathan sweet
N42461
>Even tougher on them when your passing off crap for wisdom.
Naw, they know it's crap. But they are kind and humor me.
You have any kids? Or are you one of those folks who reads revisionist PC
Grimm's tales to your dogs at night?
nathan sweet
Mark Heyman
"David Kennedy" <ken...@primal.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.21.020812...@primal.ucdavis.edu...
> Nor are most people, even if they have the talent. I think most find out
> that a carfully selected job afords them better climbing opportunities in
> the long run without having to worry about such things as publicity.
This is laughable.
> > Is climbing 5.14 common place these days?
>
> Absolutley, people with full time jobs climb 5.14, free and hold speed
> records on El Cap and do other stuff that might have been
> considered world class in the not to distant past.
> > He's won speed comps agains the world's fastest climbers.
> Yeah, but speed climbing competitions are kind of lame. Difficulty is a
> much better judge of climbing talent, problem is that it is boring too
> watch.
??? I bet that in general they correlate pretty well.
> > (With regards to Chris Sharma) I like watching him climb. He's a pro
> > climber and he makes a living.
>
> Quite humbly may I add.
Yeah, I guess they are different people.
Mark Heyman
Mike Garrison
>
> Mike Garrison wrote:
> >
> > I've read transcripts literally from tape. People just don't
> > speak the way they write. We skip words, slur them,
> > transpose them, and intersperse meaningless placeholders
> > like "um", "you know", "like", etc.
>
> In my experience, reporters can easily change a statement like
> (totally making this up) "This is a great script that goes beyond the
> average morality play, exploring a full range of human behaviors and
> our expectations for them" into "This is a great morality play!" the
> actor said.
That's not legit.
Even a (technically correct) quote like "This is a great ...
morality play!" is not legit.
If you are going to change the meaning of the quote, it's
easier to just make it up. Various studios have been caught
doing that with psuedo movie reviews.
As Steven said, the responsible thing is to make sure the
quote which is printed has the same meaning as the quote
which is said. It is not, however, necessary to make sure
the the quote which is printed has the same meaning as the
quote which was *intended*.
Nor is it required (or even good practice) to ask for
permission to run any given quote. Once you have identified
yourself as a reporter, everything the other person says is
fair game (unless the reporter agrees to talk off the
record).
Some of this comes down to trust. A reporter who goes
headhunting for bad quotes (and an editor who allows them to
run) is not going to be granted too many more interviews.
> > Taking notes mainly consists of jotting down enough
> > of the important nouns and verbs to get the meaning and
> > style pretty close to correct.
>
> People who understand the subject probably do a better job of this.
> Certainly the mainstream reporters covering climbing accidents (or any
> climbing subject) do a bad job of it. You don't think people involved
> in rescues say things as asinine as what is typically reported, do
> you?
Exactly right. You get things like reporters who don't know
anything about climbing interviewing county sheriff deputies
who don't know anything about climbing. Bad combination.
That's why science reporting and business reporting are
specialized disciplines. Perhaps we are lucky that climbing
accidents are not so common as to create "climbing accident
reporters".
In Seattle all the newspapers have assigned, specialized,
aerospace reporters. I wouldn't expect the same is true in
Miami or Minneapolis.
A good reporter will keep asking questions until they
actually understand what the subject is trying to say, and
won't run any quotes they don't understand.
> Someone asked me the other day, with respect to my TRs, "How do you
> remember what everyone said?"
>
> "Dramatic license," I told her. (Duh.) I have the advantage of
> knowing both the characters and the situation intimately and I still
> have someone complain every now and then that I got them wrong.
Yup.
-Mike