fustian, peccadillo, scordatura
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
fustian - it's a coarse cloth, yet it also means baroque speech.
I would think the speech should derive from an ornate brocade ... how
did the meaning made the jump?
peccadillo - I thought this was a quirk, like wearing a white shirt every
day, but it's really a small sin, like dropping your leaves over your fence
into your neighbor's yard. A crime must be implied ...
scordatura - is a musical term for tuning an instrument to suit the music
(circa 1700s). Has this been done recently?
mUs1Ka
<tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote in message
news:bmu5be$4mm$1...@news1.radix.net...
The solo violin in Saint-Saens Danse Macabre uses scordatura, retuning the E
string to Eb.
I believe it is also used in some klezmer and other folk music such as some
of that of Appalachia.
m.
Robert Lieblich
>
> <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote
[ ... ]
> > scordatura - is a musical term for tuning an instrument to suit the music
> > (circa 1700s). Has this been done recently?
>
> The solo violin in Saint-Saens Danse Macabre uses scordatura, retuning the E
> string to Eb.
> I believe it is also used in some klezmer and other folk music such as some
> of that of Appalachia.
Add to this the solo violin in the second movement of Mahler's
Fourth Symphony, used to represent Death.
Heinrich Biber wrote a set of twelve "Rosary Sonatas" for violin
that used twelve variant tunings, one per sonata. That was back in
the baroque era, and it is probably the apotheosis of scordatura.
In order to enable the soloist to manage the music, what is actually
written down is the note that would emerge from a given string if it
were normally tuned. If a string is tuned one whole tone sharp, for
example, positioning the left hand as if to produce an E from a
normally tuned string would instead produce an F. To get an F, the
composer writes an E in the score, the soloist positions his finger
for an E, and out comes an F.
Similar "misdirections" can be found in the sheet music for some
variant instruments. As I recall, for example, the music for
piccolo is written with finger positions for a flute, but the
variant tuning of the piccolo produces different notes from those
that would come out of a flute. Similar things go on in the other
woodwind groups.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who played piano (very, very badly) and didn't worry about tuning
R H Draney
>
>mUs1Ka wrote:
>>
>> <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote
>
>[ ... ]
>
>> > scordatura - is a musical term for tuning an instrument to suit the music
>> > (circa 1700s). Has this been done recently?
>>
>> The solo violin in Saint-Saens Danse Macabre uses scordatura, retuning the E
>> string to Eb.
>> I believe it is also used in some klezmer and other folk music such as some
>> of that of Appalachia.
>
>Add to this the solo violin in the second movement of Mahler's
>Fourth Symphony, used to represent Death.
>
>Heinrich Biber wrote a set of twelve "Rosary Sonatas" for violin
>that used twelve variant tunings, one per sonata. That was back in
>the baroque era, and it is probably the apotheosis of scordatura.
>
>In order to enable the soloist to manage the music, what is actually
>written down is the note that would emerge from a given string if it
>were normally tuned. If a string is tuned one whole tone sharp, for
>example, positioning the left hand as if to produce an E from a
>normally tuned string would instead produce an F. To get an F, the
>composer writes an E in the score, the soloist positions his finger
>for an E, and out comes an F.
For those of us on guitar, there's a little gadget called a capo that does the
same thing....
>Similar "misdirections" can be found in the sheet music for some
>variant instruments. As I recall, for example, the music for
>piccolo is written with finger positions for a flute, but the
>variant tuning of the piccolo produces different notes from those
>that would come out of a flute. Similar things go on in the other
>woodwind groups.
The last two (repeat) episodes of Schickele Mix have gone into this point
heavily in connection with the clarinet family...I think the professor counted
fourteen instruments in the bunch including the basset horn (pointing out in the
process its different timbre)....r
John Dean
*all* the strings at the same time (and it only works upwards). The
scordatura effect affects only those selected strings. Steel guitar sound is
achieved by tuning strings so that the open strings form a chord. Tuning
bottom E down to D is a popular effect for blues.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
mUs1Ka
"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3F92BE17...@Verizon.net...
are written an octave lower in order to make the music more easily readable.
The reason for the other 'transposing' instruments was more to do with the
restrictions of the instruments in the 17th and 18th Centuries. They
continue to have music transposed to this day.
m.
John Dean
> Three words flapping around my mental attic this morning ...
>
> fustian - it's a coarse cloth, yet it also means baroque speech.
> I would think the speech should derive from an ornate brocade ... how
> did the meaning made the jump?
OED says fustian was 'Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and
flax' but is ' Now, a thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap,
usually dyed of an olive, leaden, or other dark colour.'
OED suggests the jump is like that of bombast which originally meant to
'stuff, pad, or fill out with cotton-wool, or the like.'
Anna Skipka
There is an extended scordatura passage for solo violin in the second
movement of Mahler's 4th symphony. The technique gives the violin a
wonderfully macabre sound: I highly recommend finding a recording.
-skipka
Ben Zimmer
For Shakespeare, a companion of "fustian" and "bombast" was
"linsey-woolsey":
But what linsey-woolsey hast thou to speak to us again?
-- All's Well that Ends Well, IV. i. 13
The 1913 Webster's has:
1. Cloth made of linen and wool, mixed.
2. Jargon. [Obs.] Shak.
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=linsey-woolsey
Aaron J. Dinkin
> For Shakespeare, a companion of "fustian" and "bombast" was
> "linsey-woolsey":
>
> But what linsey-woolsey hast thou to speak to us again?
> -- All's Well that Ends Well, IV. i. 13
I thought that was a character in the movie _Auntie Mame_.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Martin Ambuhl
> The solo violin in Saint-Saens Danse Macabre uses scordatura, retuning the E
> string to Eb.
> I believe it is also used in some klezmer and other folk music such as some
> of that of Appalachia.
> m.
Some more examples, but note that the lack of standard tuning up through
the early 17th C makes some of these tenuous:
(16th C)
J. A. Dalza's two "Pavana alla ferrarese in scordatura."
Hans Newsidler's "Judentanz."
(17th C)
The 15 violin sonatas of Heinrich Biber make considerable use of
scordatura. see "Surexit Christus hodie" & "Christi Gebet"
(18th C)
Viola in Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante, K364 (semitone sharp)
(19th C)
Cello in the andante of Schumann's piano quartet (C string -> B flat)
(19th C; revised 20th C)
Solo violinist in the scherzo of Mahler's 4th symphony (a full tone
sharp)
(20th C)
Violin in the last movement of Bartok's Contrasts (g->g sharp, e"->e flat")
Such is the price one pays for having a music teacher for a mother.
--
Martin Ambuhl
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> For Shakespeare, a companion of "fustian" and "bombast" was
> "linsey-woolsey":
> But what linsey-woolsey hast thou to speak to us again?
> -- All's Well that Ends Well, IV. i. 13
I was informed by an English major that the switch came because of
Shakespeare, from the homespun speeches of the characters who wore fustian.
Donna Richoux
If that's true, I would expect the entries in the OED would show it.
Would someone with access kindly see what it has for dates and
citations, particularly the first entries that show the "high-flown
speech or writing" meaning?
By the way, the dictionary at www.all-about-fabrics.com disagrees awith
m-w.com about the nature of the cloth and the history of the name:
Fiber: cotton or cotton with linen or flax. Weave:
cross woven when a mix. Characteristics: Was used
for undergarments and linings. Originally made in
Fustat near Cairo, hence its name.
Whereas m-w.com has:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French fustaine,
from Medieval Latin fustaneum, perhaps from fustis
tree trunk, from Latin, club
Date: 13th century
1 a : a strong cotton and linen fabric b : a class
of cotton fabrics usually having a pile face and
twill weave
2 : high-flown or affected writing or speech;
broadly : anything high-flown or affected in style
AHD stays on the "coarse" and "heavy" side, which does not sound
compatible to me with undergarments and linings. For etymology, they
list both theories (Egypt, or the French/Latin chain).
Ol' Freeze and Feeble offers the idea that "fustian" did not come from
the cloth at all
Isaac Taylor thinks this phrase means toper's words,
and derives fustian from fuste, Old French for a
cask, whence "fusty" (tasting of the cask).
But Brewer goes on to point out that, after all,
we have numerous phrases derived from materials of
dress applied to speech
So that's all it takes to convince *him*.
--
What a muddle -- Donna Richoux
John Dean
> <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> For Shakespeare, a companion of "fustian" and "bombast" was
>>> "linsey-woolsey":
>>
>>> But what linsey-woolsey hast thou to speak to us again?
>>> -- All's Well that Ends Well, IV. i. 13
>>
>> I was informed by an English major that the switch came because of
>> Shakespeare, from the homespun speeches of the characters who wore
>> fustian.
>
> If that's true, I would expect the entries in the OED would show it.
> Would someone with access kindly see what it has for dates and
> citations, particularly the first entries that show the "high-flown
> speech or writing" meaning?
>
<<
1. Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a
thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an
olive, leaden, or other dark colour.>>
Early cites for that - << c1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 163 –e meshakele of medeme
fustane [or perh. fustani]. c1386 Chaucer Prol. 75 Of fustyan he wered a
gepoun. c1450 Merlin 279 His clothinge was blakke fustyan with bendes on
the sleues. 1502 Privy Purse Exp. Eliz. of York (1830) 16, ij yerdes of
white fustyan for sokkes for the Quene. >>
But there is also
<< Üc. fustian of Naples. Also 6 fustian in naples or aplis, fustyan(e
aples or n)apes, fwstinaples, fustianapes, fustniapes, 6ñ7 fustian anapes or
an apes. App. a kind of cotton velvet. Cf. a-napes. Obs. >>
For << 2. fig. Inflated, turgid, or inappropriately lofty language;
speech or writing composed of high-sounding words and phrases; bombast,
rant; in early use also Üjargon, made-up language, gibberish. >>
... early cites : << c1590 Marlowe Faust. iv. 76 Wag. Let thy left eye be
diametarily fixed upon my right heel, with quasi vestigiis nostris
insistere. Clown. God forgive me, he speaks Dutch fustian. 1599 B. Jonson
Ev. Man out of his Humour iii. i, Prithee let's talk fustian a little, and
gull them. 1621 Burton Anat. Mel. ii. iii. ii. (1651) 316 If he can+wear
his clothes in fashion+talk big fustian. 1651 Cleveland Poems 41 With
humble service, and such other Fustian. >>
Linsey-woolsey:
<< 1. Orig. a textile material, woven from a mixture of wool and flax; now,
a dress material of coarse inferior wool, woven upon a cotton warp. Also pl.
Pieces or kinds of this material.
1483 Cath. Angl. 217/2 Lynsy wolsye, linistema vel linostema. 1522
Skelton Why not to Court 128 We shall haue a tot quot From the Pope of Rome,
To weue all in one lome A webbe of lylse wulse. 1591 H. Smith Prep.
Marriage 157 God forbad the people to weare linsey wolsey, because it was a
signe of inconstancie. >>
Ben Zimmer
>
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> > <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> For Shakespeare, a companion of "fustian" and "bombast" was
> >>> "linsey-woolsey":
> >>
> >>> But what linsey-woolsey hast thou to speak to us again?
> >>> -- All's Well that Ends Well, IV. i. 13
> >>
> >> I was informed by an English major that the switch came because of
> >> Shakespeare, from the homespun speeches of the characters who wore
> >> fustian.
> >
> > If that's true, I would expect the entries in the OED would show it.
> > Would someone with access kindly see what it has for dates and
> > citations, particularly the first entries that show the "high-flown
> > speech or writing" meaning?
["fustian":]
> For << 2. fig. Inflated, turgid, or inappropriately lofty language;
> speech or writing composed of high-sounding words and phrases; bombast,
> rant; in early use also 唈argon, made-up language, gibberish. >>
>
> ... early cites : << c1590 Marlowe Faust. iv. 76 Wag. Let thy left eye be
> diametarily fixed upon my right heel, with quasi vestigiis nostris
> insistere. Clown. God forgive me, he speaks Dutch fustian. 1599 B. Jonson
> Ev. Man out of his Humour iii. i, Prithee let's talk fustian a little, and
> gull them. 1621 Burton Anat. Mel. ii. iii. ii. (1651) 316 If he can+wear
> his clothes in fashion+talk big fustian. 1651 Cleveland Poems 41 With
> humble service, and such other Fustian. >>
>
> Linsey-woolsey:
> << 1. Orig. a textile material, woven from a mixture of wool and flax; now,
> a dress material of coarse inferior wool, woven upon a cotton warp. Also pl.
> Pieces or kinds of this material.
> 1483 Cath. Angl. 217/2 Lynsy wolsye, linistema vel linostema. 1522
> Skelton Why not to Court 128 We shall haue a tot quot From the Pope of Rome,
> To weue all in one lome A webbe of lylse wulse. 1591 H. Smith Prep.
> Marriage 157 God forbad the people to weare linsey wolsey, because it was a
> signe of inconstancie. >>
And here's what OED has for the figurative sense of "linsey-woolsey":
2. fig. or in figurative contexts, esp. a strange medley
in talk or action; confusion, nonsense.
?1592 GREENE Vision Wks. 1881-6 XII. 235 Thou hast write
no booke well, but thy Nunquam sera est, and that is
indifferent Linsey Wolsey. 1594 NASHE Terrors Nt. Wks.
1883 III. 229 A man must not..haue his affections linsey
wolsey, intermingled with lust, and things worthy of
liking. 1601 SHAKES. All's Well IV. i. 13 What linsie
wolsy hast thou to speake to vs againe. [...]
As for "bombast", the first cite for the figurative sense is from 1589
(Nashe). So Shakespeare is not considered the originator of any of the
"mixed fabric -> turgid speech" metaphorical extensions.
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
>> ... early cites : << c1590 Marlowe Faust. iv. 76 Wag. Let thy left eye be
>> diametarily fixed upon my right heel, with quasi vestigiis nostris
>> insistere. Clown. God forgive me, he speaks Dutch fustian.
... in Faust they talk fustian ...
> So Shakespeare is not considered the originator of any of the
> "mixed fabric -> turgid speech" metaphorical extensions.
Dang! I'll have to tell my English major-ette that she was wrong!
Ben Zimmer
See elsethread for OED's first cites for "fustian", "bombast", and
"linsey-woolsey" as applied to turgid speech-- none originated with
Shakespeare, though he may have popularized them (as he did with so many
other neologisms attributed to him). And these entries from Brewer's
_Dictionary of Phrase and Fable_ suggest an even wider metaphorical
field:
http://www.bartleby.com/81/6904.html
Fustian Words.
Isaac Taylor thinks this phrase means toper's words, and
derives _fustian_ from _fuste_, Old French for a cask,
whence "fusty" (tasting of the cask). It may be so, but we
have numerous phrases derived from materials of dress
applied to speech, as _velvet_, _satin_, _silken_, etc.
The mother of Artaxerxes said, "Those who address kings
must use silken words." In French, "faire patte de velour"
means to fatten with velvet words in order to seduce or
win over.
http://www.bartleby.com/81/10657.html
Lutestring.
A glossy silk; a corruption of the French word _lustrine_
(from _lustre_).
_To speak in lutestring_. Flash, highly-polished oratory.
The expression was first used in Junius. Shakespeare has
"taffeta phrases and silken terms precise." We call
inflated speech "fustian" (q.v.) or "bombast" (q.v.); say
a man talks _stuff_; term a book or speech made up of other
men's brains, _shoddy_ (q.v.); sailors call telling a story
"spinning a yarn," etc. etc.
Don Aitken
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Donna Richoux wrote:
>> <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For Shakespeare, a companion of "fustian" and "bombast" was
>>>> "linsey-woolsey":
>>>
>>>> But what linsey-woolsey hast thou to speak to us again?
>>>> -- All's Well that Ends Well, IV. i. 13
>>>
>>> I was informed by an English major that the switch came because of
>>> Shakespeare, from the homespun speeches of the characters who wore
>>> fustian.
>>
>> If that's true, I would expect the entries in the OED would show it.
>> Would someone with access kindly see what it has for dates and
>> citations, particularly the first entries that show the "high-flown
>> speech or writing" meaning?
>>
>OED says 'conjecturally' from Fostat, suburb of Cairo.
> <<
> 1. Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a
>thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an
>olive, leaden, or other dark colour.>>
>
The derivation from Fustat, and from the OF and Med. Latin forms cited
could all be correct, if fustaine and fustaneum both came from Fustat
rather than from fustis, for which m-w.com says "perhaps".
Incidentally, both "near Cairo", and "a suburb of Cairo" are
misleading. Fustat, founded in 642, was the original metropolis of
Muslim Egypt, after the decline of Alexandria. Cairo came later, being
founded on an adjoining site by the Fatimids in the tenth century.
Even after this, Fustat "flourished as the center of trade, industry,
religion, science and education of the Islam world." It was sacked by
Crusaders in 1168, and what was left was later absorbed into Cairo.
See http://www.waseda.ac.jp/projects/egypt/sites/Fustat-E.html
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
Ben Zimmer
>
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:38:47 +0100, "John Dean"
> <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>
> >OED says 'conjecturally' from Fostat, suburb of Cairo.
> > <<
> > 1. Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a
> >thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an
> >olive, leaden, or other dark colour.>>
> >
> The derivation from Fustat, and from the OF and Med. Latin forms cited
> could all be correct, if fustaine and fustaneum both came from Fustat
> rather than from fustis, for which m-w.com says "perhaps".
The etymology from "Fustat" seems a little suspect to me-- I'm reminded
of the dubious derivation of "gingham" from the French town of Guingamp
[1]. Even if Fustat had something to do with the fabric, the sense of
"fustian" describing overblown speech might have been influenced by
"fusty", which is indeed derived from Lat. _fustis_ 'wooden stick, club'
(via OF _fust_ 'piece of wood, wine cask').[2]
The derivation of Med. Lat. _fustaneum_ from Lat. _fustis_ (rather than
from _Fustat_) was supposedly due to a loan-translation of a Greek term
for cotton, _xylina lina_, literally "wood linen".[3]
[1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EBFB604...@midway.uchicago.edu
[2] http://www.bartleby.com/81/6904.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/55/F0375500.html
[3] http://www.etymonline.com/f5etym.htm
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> Such is the price one pays for having a music teacher for a mother.
If you see her, ask her why music schools are called "conservatories".
What are they preserving?
Donna Richoux
> Don Aitken wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:38:47 +0100, "John Dean"
> > <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
> >
> > >OED says 'conjecturally' from Fostat, suburb of Cairo.
> > > <<
> > > 1. Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a
> > >thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an
> > >olive, leaden, or other dark colour.>>
> > >
> > The derivation from Fustat, and from the OF and Med. Latin forms cited
> > could all be correct, if fustaine and fustaneum both came from Fustat
> > rather than from fustis, for which m-w.com says "perhaps".
>
> The etymology from "Fustat" seems a little suspect to me-- I'm reminded
> of the dubious derivation of "gingham" from the French town of Guingamp
> [1].
Denim. Damask. Duffle. Calico. Muslin. Satin. Cashmere. Jersey. Tulle.
It's not merely an illusion: fabric names really do come often from the
places that invented them or made them famous.
--
Harris Tweed. Dotted Swiss. -- Donna Richoux
Robert Lieblich
The art of music, for future generations. Be grateful.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who is
Ben Zimmer
Donna Richoux wrote:
>
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > Don Aitken wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:38:47 +0100, "John Dean"
> > > <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >OED says 'conjecturally' from Fostat, suburb of Cairo.
> > > > <<
> > > > 1. Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a
> > > >thick, twilled, cotton cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an
> > > >olive, leaden, or other dark colour.>>
> > > >
> > > The derivation from Fustat, and from the OF and Med. Latin forms cited
> > > could all be correct, if fustaine and fustaneum both came from Fustat
> > > rather than from fustis, for which m-w.com says "perhaps".
> >
> > The etymology from "Fustat" seems a little suspect to me-- I'm reminded
>
> Denim. Damask. Duffle. Calico. Muslin. Satin. Cashmere. Jersey. Tulle.
> It's not merely an illusion: fabric names really do come often from the
> places that invented them or made them famous.
I don't doubt that place names have often given rise to names of
textiles and the like. But place names can also be fertile grounds for
folk etymology. Here I mean both senses of "folk etymology"--
conjectures about word origins based on coincidental resemblances, and
alterations of words arising from such resemblances, e.g. "orange"
(influenced by the French place name "Orenge"), "Jerusalem artichoke",
"Jordan almond", etc.
In the case of "fustian" I defer to Eric Partridge, who gives this
deriviation in _Origins_:
fustian (n hence adj): ME _fustyan_, var _fustane_:
MF _fustaigne_: ML _fustâneum_, a blend, ? rather a
confusion, of ML _xylinum_ (Gr _xulinon_, neu of
_xulinos_, of or from _xulon_ or wood)+L _fustis_,
a wooden club, a cudgel, itself o.o.o. B & W treat
ML _fustâneum_ as a translation of Septuagint Gr
_xulina lina_, cotton, lit tissue of wood: cf the
ML definition of _fustâneum_ as _lana de legno_,
lit wool coming from wood, and cf sem the G
_Baumwolle_, cotton, lit wood-wool. This etym is
more prob than that which derives MF _fustaigne_
from _Fustat_, a suburb of Cairo.
[o.o.o. = "of obscure origin"]
[B & W = O. Bloch and W. von Wartburg, _Dictionnaire
étymologique de la langue française_, 2nd ed., 1950]
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> Denim. Damask. Duffle. Calico. Muslin. Satin. Cashmere. Jersey. Tulle.
> It's not merely an illusion: fabric names really do come often from the
> places that invented them or made them famous.
Another example is cretonne, from the village in France.