How to describe a shirt with square pattern?
conjecture
lines)?
Thanks
Note: Please correct me if you find any mistakes in my sentences.
david56
> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> lines)?
The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
conjecture
On Sun, 11 May 2003 10:41:29 +0100, david56
<bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>conjecture wrote:
>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>> lines)?
>
>The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
>presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
>squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
Note: Please correct me if you find any mistakes in my sentences.
Donna Richoux
> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> lines)?
Probably plaid. Possibly check, checked, or checkered, if it was a
simple two-color square design.
There are tartan plaids, which are the wool Scottish designs, and there
is Madras plaid, which has brighter colors on lightweight cotton.
Try Images at google.com to turn up examples of "plaid." Here's one:
http://www.peppergifts.com/2002GolfShirtPics/010GolfPlaid.jpg
It's pronounced like "plad", by the way. Not like "braid" or "maid".
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
david56
> How about shirt with spots? Any another common pattern for shirt?
Big spots are called "polka dots". My uncle owns a menswear shop and
once described a jacket of mine as "fish eye" - it is black with small,
close white dots in a regular pattern, but I never heard this anywhere else.
Then there's Paisley, Herringbone, Dog-Tooth Cheque, and all sorts of
Stripes. You can search for images of these online.
Don Phillipson
news:eo5sbv4m6o4r0m0q6...@4ax.com...
> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> lines)?
1. Check or chequered is the usual word when
the pattern includes solid squares (e.g. red
and black "lumberjack" shirts.)
2. Tattersall is a common descriptor when the
colours are thin lines on a white ground.
3. Tartan names a large variety of Scotch
patterns of solid colours.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
dphillipson[at]trytel.com
John Dean
> conjecture wrote:
>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>> lines)?
>
> The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
> presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
> squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
I've only ever seen 'check' in the UK. 'cheque' is, I thought, reserved for
the financial instrument. Am I alone?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Don Aitken
<bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>conjecture wrote:
>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>> lines)?
>
>The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
>presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
>squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
For me, it would be "check" in the UK. I don't think I've ever seen
"cheque" with this meaning. And "chequers" is just an obsolete word
for draughts. The board is usually called a chess board, or a draughts
board, and boards of that general design, irrespective of size, are
checkerboards.
Google gives
"check pattern" 5,080
"cheque pattern" 49
and with "site:.uk"
"check pattern" 392
"cheque pattern" 2 (both of which refer to the financial meaning)
--
Don Aitken
Frances Kemmish
> conjecture wrote:
>
>>How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>>lines)?
>
>
> The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
> presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
> squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
>
Do you really spell that "cheque"? I would write "check" for that (I
still write "cheque" for the banker's order).
Fran
Padraig Breathnach
>I've only ever seen 'check' in the UK. 'cheque' is, I thought, reserved for
>the financial instrument. Am I alone?
No.
PB
Laura F Spira
No, you are not alone. (David seems to be living in some kind of
parallel world: the sun has been shining here all day so far, hasn't
it?)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
david56
> On Sun, 11 May 2003 10:41:29 +0100, david56
> <bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> conjecture wrote:
>>
>>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and
>>> horizonal lines)?
>>
>> The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
>> presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
>> squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
>
> For me, it would be "check" in the UK. I don't think I've ever seen
> "cheque" with this meaning.
I am sure you are right - it looks as though my memory is faulty.
david56
It seems that I might, but apparently I am dead wrong.
Linz
<bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>conjecture wrote:
>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>> lines)?
>
>The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
>presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
>squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
Really? I've only ever seen "check" or "checked" for the material.
david56
Here? Oxford? I freely admit my ignorance of the speeling of the name
of the pattern, but it has been raining on and off all day in Warrington.
david56
Yes, yes, but is it sunny in Todmorden?
Linz
He's closer to me than you geographically, I think, and it's been
raining on and off all day. The cats are so disgusted that even the
sound of the electric sander hasn't scared Felix enough to run
outside.
Spehro Pefhany
It's only mid-morning but it's been thunderstorming and soak-testing
my army of sturdy paper yard waste bags. Where on earth is all this
sunshine?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Matti Lamprhey
> Frances Kemmish wrote:
> > david56 wrote:
> >> conjecture wrote:
> >>
> >>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and
> >>> horizonal lines)?
> >>
> >> The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
> >> presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
> >> squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
> >>
> > Do you really spell that "cheque"? I would write "check" for that (I
> > still write "cheque" for the banker's order).
>
> It seems that I might, but apparently I am dead wrong.
I'm not so sure. It looked wrong to me at first, and I wrote out a
response along the lines of the others here. However, I suspect that
the original British adjectives are "chequed" and "chequered", and that
these have been replaced by the simpler version "check" from the USA and
its spelling has been retained.
Matti
semir...@my-deja.com
>conjecture wrote:
>>How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>>lines)?
>Probably plaid. Possibly check, checked, or checkered, if it was a
>simple two-color square design.
>There are tartan plaids, which are the wool Scottish designs, and there
>is Madras plaid, which has brighter colors on lightweight cotton.
>Try Images at google.com to turn up examples of "plaid." Here's one:
> http://www.peppergifts.com/2002GolfShirtPics/010GolfPlaid.jpg
>It's pronounced like "plad", by the way. Not like "braid" or "maid".
Yes!
Check - including Madras Check- but not spelt as the financial variety.
Plaid (pronounced "plad"),
Tartan for the Scottish Clan Tartans.
Not so sure about chequered though.
If you follow the links and ignore the selling there are a lot of tartans at
www.house-of-tartan.scotland.net/house/tfinder.htm
John Dean
Sun shining? Check
Balloon Festival? Check
Sky purple? Check
Margaret Thatcher Prime Minister? Check
Yep - everything OK here
Frances Kemmish
"Chequered" is fine - "chequered past", for instance - but I would only
call the fabric pattern "check" or "checked".
Fran
Triffid
The topic has a chequered history.
Linz
wrote:
>On Sun, 11 May 2003 15:00:33 +0100, the renowned Linz
><sp...@nospam.lindsayendell.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 May 2003 14:05:05 +0100, Laura F Spira
>><la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>>>No, you are not alone. (David seems to be living in some kind of
>>>parallel world: the sun has been shining here all day so far, hasn't
>>>it?)
>>
>>He's closer to me than you geographically, I think, and it's been
>>raining on and off all day. The cats are so disgusted that even the
>>sound of the electric sander hasn't scared Felix enough to run
>>outside.
>
>It's only mid-morning but it's been thunderstorming and soak-testing
>my army of sturdy paper yard waste bags. Where on earth is all this
>sunshine?
Oxford, apparently.
Linz
<bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Linz wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 May 2003 10:41:29 +0100, david56
>> <bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>conjecture wrote:
>>>
>>>>How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>>>>lines)?
>>>
>>>The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
>>>presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
>>>squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
>>
>> Really? I've only ever seen "check" or "checked" for the material.
>
>Yes, yes, but is it sunny in Todmorden?
I think I've covered this in another post, but no - it has been
Joe Fineman
> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> lines)?
And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Blessed are they who expect nothing, for surely they shall :||
||: not be disappointed. :||
Jack Gavin
> conjecture <chris...@webminingpro.com> writes:
>
>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>> lines)?
>
> And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
I believe you mean the pattern visible at the top of the garment shown in
http://www.tamarascreations.com/graphics/antsback2.jpg
I don't know of any particular name. I refer to it, affectionately, as
"Italian Restaurant".
A modified version, as a tablesloth, seems to be called simply "red and
white check" at http://bookstore.gallaudet.edu/product.asp?idProduct=73
(The "ILY" on that page apparently refers to the American Sign Language
sign for "I Love You".)
--
Jack Gavin
david56
> conjecture <chris...@webminingpro.com> writes:
>
>>How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>>lines)?
>
> And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
I hesitate to answer now, but I believe that's gingham, beloved of
Italian restaurants' tablecloths.
http://jjacobsen.powerlink.net/graphics/backgrounds.htm (scroll to the
bottom).
Donna Richoux
> Joe Fineman wrote:
> > conjecture <chris...@webminingpro.com> writes:
> >
> >> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> >> lines)?
> >
> > And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> > common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> > the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> > that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
>
> I believe you mean the pattern visible at the top of the garment shown in
> http://www.tamarascreations.com/graphics/antsback2.jpg
>
> I don't know of any particular name. I refer to it, affectionately, as
> "Italian Restaurant".
That's damask -- "red and white checked damask." Doesn't sound quite
believable, does it, because damask usually has very elegant patterns,
like brocade. But apparently it comes in a variety of styles. See
http://www.textilefabric.com/tapestrybrocade.htm
Donna Richoux
> Joe Fineman wrote:
> > conjecture <chris...@webminingpro.com> writes:
> >
> >>How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> >>lines)?
> >
> > And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> > common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> > the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> > that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
>
> I hesitate to answer now, but I believe that's gingham, beloved of
> Italian restaurants' tablecloths.
>
> http://jjacobsen.powerlink.net/graphics/backgrounds.htm (scroll to the
> bottom).
It's true that gingham is nearly always found with small checks
(Bartleby's encyclopedia says it can come in stripes and solids) but
it's a much lighter weight fabric than what the tablecloths are made of.
(See my other post.)
Frances Kemmish
Gingham is the pattern and weave, not the fibre. It comes in all kinds
of weights. When I was at school, we made tablecloths and matching tray
cloths of gingham. It was a heavier weight than the dress-weight gingham
my mother used for my summer dresses.
Fran
Robert Bannister
I agree about 'cheque', but 'checkered' is an alternative and I have
even seen the ambiguous 'checked'.
--
Rob Bannister
R F
> And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
That's called "Italian tablecloth" in my idiolect.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
Dead Wrong. Italian tablecloth has alternating red and white squares.
--
Charles Riggs
For email, take the air out of aircom
and replace it with eir.
Donna Richoux
All right, if you knew of heavier gingham, I will bow to your wider
experience. The only kind I ever saw in the US was, as you say,
dress-weight. I'm still certain that the tablecloth material Joe was
asking about, however, is checked (check, checkered) damask.
The American Heritage Dictionary says of the etymology of "gingham,"
Dutch /ginggang/, from Malay. No town of Gingham, England, then?
Linz
"Joe Fineman" <j...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:wk65ohx...@TheWorld.com...
> conjecture <chris...@webminingpro.com> writes:
>
> > How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> > lines)?
>
> And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
Gingham. You can get it in other colours too - in the UK, certainly. School
dresses are often gingham.
Brian Wickham
If we are talking about lines over a light background, and not colored
bands, then it is "Tatersall" or "Tatersall check".
Two examples would be:
http://www.barbour.com/product/profile.asp?cid=25&pid=419
http://littlehousefashions.com/foxrhytwrinf1.html
Brian Wickham
Derek Turner
<chris...@webminingpro.com> wrote:
>How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
>lines)?
>
>Thanks
>Note: Please correct me if you find any mistakes in my sentences.
If its made of a thick brushed cotton, a Tattersall shirt (beloved of
countrymen when out huntin' shootin' and fishin')
--
Derek Turner
Outlook Express is worth precisely what you paid for it.
Ben Zimmer
>
> The American Heritage Dictionary says of the etymology of "gingham,"
> Dutch /ginggang/, from Malay. No town of Gingham, England, then?
No, but there's a town in Brittany named Guingamp. The French
lexicographer Émile Littré claimed that "gingham" derived from
"Guingamp", since the fabric had long been manufactured there.
But Yule & Burnell (_Hobson-Jobson_) dismissed this etymology:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/HOB.sh?WORD=gingham
We may observe that the productions of Guingamp, and of
the Côtes-du-Nord generally, are of linen, a manufacture
dating from the 15th century. If it could be shown that
gingham was either originally applied to linen fabrics,
or that the word occurs before the Indian trade began,
we should be more willing to admit the French etymology
as possible.
MW <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?gingham> gives the root as
"genggang", which is the more common spelling in Malay ("ginggang" is
the Javanese equivalent). Both the Malay and Javanese variants
originally meant 'striped' and were then extended to 'striped fabric'.
Frances Kemmish
I assumed, from the description that he gave, that he meant gingham, but
he may have been describing checked damask, but failed to mention the
satin finish.
The page David56 cited shows gingham.
The one you cited shows damask, and mentions "satin". My mother's damask
tablecloth (one of the items damaged by the laundry I mentioned in
another thread) had a flowered design, and was all white.
> The American Heritage Dictionary says of the etymology of "gingham,"
> Dutch /ginggang/, from Malay. No town of Gingham, England, then?
>
Not that I know of, but you never can tell.
My favourite dictionary of textile terms (at
http://www.all-about-fabrics.com/) gives the derivation as from Malay,
without mentioning Dutch. My Chambers gives Fr. guingan, from Malay
ginggang (meaning striped).
Fran
R F
> On Sun, 11 May 2003 20:49:51 -0400, R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >On 11 May 2003, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >
> >> And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave --
> >> common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths -- in which
> >> the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of (say) red & white, so
> >> that the squares are red, white, & two kinds of pink?
> >
> >That's called "Italian tablecloth" in my idiolect.
>
> Dead Wrong. Italian tablecloth has alternating red and white squares.
Hey, it's my idiolect.
Jacqui
> Charles Riggs wrote:
> R F wrote:
>> > Joe Fineman wrote:
>> >
>> >> And more specifically, does anyone know the name for the weave
>> >> -- common (at least in the U.S.) in curtains & tablecloths --
>> >> in which the warp & the woof both have alternate bands of
>> >> (say) red & white, so that the squares are red, white, & two
>> >> kinds of pink?
>> >
>> >That's called "Italian tablecloth" in my idiolect.
>>
>> Dead Wrong. Italian tablecloth has alternating red and white
>> squares.
>
> Hey, it's my idiolect.
And my Italian tablecloths (from a shop on the Via Flaminia Nuova) are
green.
Jac
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I'm not so sure. It looked wrong to me at first, and I wrote out a
> response along the lines of the others here. However, I suspect that
> the original British adjectives are "chequed" and "chequered", and that
> these have been replaced by the simpler version "check" from the USA and
> its spelling has been retained.
I suspect that you're wrong. The OED dates "check" in the sense of "A
pattern of cross lines forming small squares, as in a chess-board"
back to ca. 1400, and only one (1679) quote uses "cheque". (The
earliest is "Chek".) "A fabric woven or printed with such a pattern"
is dated back to 1614, with the first quote having "checque" [sic],
and the rest (starting in 1748) having "check". A bit early for
American influence.
"Checked" as an adjective is a bit more likely to have a "q":
ca. 1460 chekkid
1536 checked
1625 checqued
1799 chequed
1820 checked
1840 checked
1885 chequed
The other adjective is actually headed as "chequered, checkered", and
the distribution of spellings is
1486 chekkerit
ca 1530 chekered
1654 checquer'd
1674 Checkerd
1762 checquer'd
1779 Checkered
1814 chequer'd
The "financial" sense of "cheque" is first attested in 1706, as
specifically, "the counterfoil of a bank bill, draft, etc.". A draft
having such, is a "cheque" from 1717, and the modern sense from 1774,
although the first quote has it "check". Interestingly, even
"exchequer" appears to have rarely had a "q" before the mid-
seventeenth century
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins
(650)857-7572
Mike Barnes
>It's only mid-morning but it's been thunderstorming and soak-testing
>my army of sturdy paper yard waste bags. Where on earth is all this
>sunshine?
*waves*
Two short showers today, otherwise very nice. I breakfasted and lunched
in the open.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Jerry Friedman
> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> lines)?
>
> Thanks
> Note: Please correct me if you find any mistakes in my sentences.
It should be "with a square pattern". (I inserted an "a".) I didn't
find any other mistakes.
--
Jerry Friedman
Laura F Spira
>
> Laura F Spira wrote:
> > John Dean wrote:
> >>
> >> david56 wrote:
> >>> conjecture wrote:
> >>>> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> >>>> lines)?
> >>>
> >>> The pattern is called "cheque" (probably "check" in US), which is
> >>> presumably a word related to the "chequers" board - lots of little
> >>> squares. It is common to call the garment a "cheque shirt".
> >>
> >> I've only ever seen 'check' in the UK. 'cheque' is, I thought,
> >> reserved for the financial instrument. Am I alone?
> >>
> >
> > No, you are not alone. (David seems to be living in some kind of
> > parallel world: the sun has been shining here all day so far, hasn't
> > it?)
>
> Sun shining? Check
> Balloon Festival? Check
And weren't they impressive?
> Sky purple? Check
> Margaret Thatcher Prime Minister? Check
'Scuse me?
[..]
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Cissy . Thorpe
> How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> lines)?
> Thanks
> Note: Please correct me if you find any mistakes in my sentences.
If the colors are woven in, and there are 2 shades of the color in the
squares you have gingham material - and a gingham shirt. It the lines
are small and make a frame around the background color, you have a window check
material and a window check shirt. If the colors are two colors, like a
checkerboard, then you have checkerboard material and a checkered shirt.
If any of these are done in flannel or wool then you have a lumber jack
shirt regarless of the pattern.
Cissy
who sews A LOT
Donna Richoux
I'm surprised that so few people have thought of "plaid" as an answer.
Cissy, do you think that a plaid shirt does not fit this description, or
do you not call them "plaid shirts," or what? To me, it's quite an
ordinary term.
Here's a picture of a plaid flannel shirt from Lands End:
http://www.landsend.com/IMAGES/PRODUCT/74564.AE.02._.15.jpg
--
Puzzled -- Donna Richoux
R F
> Cissy . Thorpe <cth...@lonestar.utsa.edu> wrote:
>
> > conjecture <chris...@webminingpro.com> wrote:
> > > How to describe a shirt with square pattern (vertical and horizonal
> > > lines)?
> >
> > > Thanks
> > > Note: Please correct me if you find any mistakes in my sentences.
> >
> >
> > If the colors are woven in, and there are 2 shades of the color in the
> > squares you have gingham material - and a gingham shirt. It the lines
> > are small and make a frame around the background color, you have a window
> > check material and a window check shirt. If the colors are two colors,
> > like a checkerboard, then you have checkerboard material and a checkered
> > shirt. If any of these are done in flannel or wool then you have a lumber
> > jack shirt regarless of the pattern.
> >
>
> I'm surprised that so few people have thought of "plaid" as an answer.
> Cissy, do you think that a plaid shirt does not fit this description, or
> do you not call them "plaid shirts," or what? To me, it's quite an
> ordinary term.
For me "plaid" is a fairly broad category, and has something to do with
the relative bigness of the pattern-formed squares -- if squares are
sufficiently small it becomes "checked" I suppose. The classic
lumberjack shirt is plaid, in my view. I got the sense that some AUE
posters restrict plaid to the Hiberno-Britic Tartan variety (which
perhaps also includes basic things like "glen plaid" <sp>).
Mark Browne
<dphil...@trytel.com> writes
>3. Tartan names a large variety of Scotch
>patterns of solid colours.
Oy! Scottish, at least so I have been told.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected
dcw
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
>I'm surprised that so few people have thought of "plaid" as an answer.
>Cissy, do you think that a plaid shirt does not fit this description, or
>do you not call them "plaid shirts," or what? To me, it's quite an
>ordinary term.
I've heard that "plaid" strictly refers to a garment, not a design
(which is "tartan"). At least, that's the etymology, though perhaps
the distinction is now made only by Scots, if at all.
David