To suck and to screw up
R J Valentine
} I hear "That sucks" and "I screwed up" in the office all the time. As a
} non-native speaker I am confused at what appears to be highly inappropriate
} language in a company that, like most American organisations today, is
} extremely conscious of sexual harrassment issues and careful to be
} politically correct in most instances.
}
} How come these expressions aren't rude??
They're both slang, and they both could be rude where slang is rude, but
neither is anywhere near as offensive as other uses of the key words could
make them (for instance, "You suck" or "Screw you" are both almost
unredeemably offensive, where "That sucks" or "I screwed up" are merely
informal). It's like skin: back-of-the-hand skin isn't a whole lot
different in appearance from skin that might be covered by a bikini, yet
the one would attract hardly any notice in most situations where the other
might be surprising, if not offensive.
The trick is in not going _all_ the way back to _possible_ etymologies
(which may well not be the ones they came from anyway, what with both
"suck" and "screw" having quite formal and innocent meanings).
Could you actually be a daughter of nobility recently tossed in an
unheated pool of American informality? Lemme check. Nope, I don't see it
under surnames, and it's not in the baronetage, either. I see a
Barrington-Ward in the knitage and a Perkins-Ward in the companionage.
But then my copy is decades out of date. I just don't get it, though.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward
"R J Valentine" <r...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:vb3kkqn...@corp.supernews.com...
> On Thu, 1 May 2003 16:18:11 -0400 Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward
<pene...@rescueteam.com> wrote:
>
> } I hear "That sucks" and "I screwed up" in the office all the time. As a
> } non-native speaker I am confused at what appears to be highly
inappropriate
> } language in a company that, like most American organisations today, is
> } extremely conscious of sexual harrassment issues and careful to be
> } politically correct in most instances.
> }
> } How come these expressions aren't rude??
>
> They're both slang, and they both could be rude where slang is rude, but
> neither is anywhere near as offensive as other uses of the key words could
> make them (for instance, "You suck" or "Screw you" are both almost
> unredeemably offensive, where "That sucks" or "I screwed up" are merely
> informal). It's like skin: back-of-the-hand skin isn't a whole lot
> different in appearance from skin that might be covered by a bikini, yet
> the one would attract hardly any notice in most situations where the other
> might be surprising, if not offensive.
>
> The trick is in not going _all_ the way back to _possible_ etymologies
> (which may well not be the ones they came from anyway, what with both
> "suck" and "screw" having quite formal and innocent meanings).
Hmm, I still don't get how they lost the offensiveness along the way...
> Could you actually be a daughter of nobility recently tossed in an
> unheated pool of American informality? Lemme check. Nope, I don't see it
> under surnames, and it's not in the baronetage, either. I see a
> Barrington-Ward in the knitage and a Perkins-Ward in the companionage.
> But then my copy is decades out of date. I just don't get it, though.
>
> --
> R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
:-) Ah but you haven't looked hard enough, my good man! Lady Penelope is
the glamorous London agent of the International Rescue Team who is driven by
her chauffeur in a pink Rolls Royce. She's a character from the
Thunderbirds, an animated series from the Sixties. (Glad I could teach you
something too!)
R J Valentine
...
} Hmm, I still don't get how they lost the offensiveness along the way...
Along the way from what? From where you imagine they started? They
weren't offensive forty years ago, and they aren't offensive today.
} :-) Ah but you haven't looked hard enough, my good man! Lady Penelope is
} the glamorous London agent of the International Rescue Team who is driven by
} her chauffeur in a pink Rolls Royce. She's a character from the
} Thunderbirds, an animated series from the Sixties. (Glad I could teach you
} something too!)
A pseudonym? You don't post under your own name? I'm shocked (Shocked!).
CyberCypher
news:vb3p891...@corp.supernews.com:
> On Thu, 1 May 2003 22:56:34 -0400 Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward
> <pene...@rescueteam.com> wrote: ...
> } Hmm, I still don't get how they lost the offensiveness along the
> way...
>
> Along the way from what? From where you imagine they started?
> They weren't offensive forty years ago, and they aren't offensive
> today.
You obviously did not go to my public high school 45 years ago, a place
where saying "Darn!" in public could land you in the principal's office
for rude and offensive language.
I disagree with your overgeneralization [nothing like a question-
begging description to make a good argument, eh what?] about "That
sucks!" It was rude and offensive where I come from until _Fast Times
at Ridgemont High_, which seems to me to serve as some kind of
linguistic watershed. After that, nothing said in American English
could be considered rude and offensive unless it was sexist, racist,
ageist, or (dis)abledist.
I still find "That sucks!" pretty offensive except in very familiar
circumstances.
"screwed up", on the other hand, has always seemed to me to be working-
class (my social class) and not "polite" language. My high school
principal would have forbidden that too on the grounds that it was a
euphemism for "fucked up".
R H Draney
>
>I disagree with your overgeneralization [nothing like a question-
>begging description to make a good argument, eh what?] about "That
>sucks!" It was rude and offensive where I come from until _Fast Times
>at Ridgemont High_, which seems to me to serve as some kind of
>linguistic watershed. After that, nothing said in American English
>could be considered rude and offensive unless it was sexist, racist,
>ageist, or (dis)abledist.
>
>I still find "That sucks!" pretty offensive except in very familiar
>circumstances.
>
>"screwed up", on the other hand, has always seemed to me to be working-
>class (my social class) and not "polite" language. My high school
>principal would have forbidden that too on the grounds that it was a
>euphemism for "fucked up".
Your high school principal obviously had his hat screwed on too tight...I have
to wonder what the science class did when they got to the basic machines: lever,
wedge, wheel, inclined plane, pulley, and fornication....
(Waiting to see if R Fontana takes your suggestion and adds "post-Ridgemont" to
his dialexicon)....r
CyberCypher
news:b8t3r...@drn.newsguy.com:
> In article <Xns936F80CE1...@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
> says...
>>
>>I disagree with your overgeneralization [nothing like a question-
>>begging description to make a good argument, eh what?] about "That
>>sucks!" It was rude and offensive where I come from until _Fast
>>Times at Ridgemont High_, which seems to me to serve as some kind
>>of linguistic watershed. After that, nothing said in American
>>English could be considered rude and offensive unless it was
>>sexist, racist, ageist, or (dis)abledist.
>>
>>I still find "That sucks!" pretty offensive except in very
>>familiar circumstances.
>>
>>"screwed up", on the other hand, has always seemed to me to be
>>working- class (my social class) and not "polite" language. My
>>high school principal would have forbidden that too on the grounds
>>that it was a euphemism for "fucked up".
>
> Your high school principal obviously had his hat screwed on too
> tight...
I hated the self-righteous bastard for all the years that I knew him.
I'm hoping that his pustulated soul went to the hottest circle of Hell.
> I have to wonder what the science class did when they got
> to the basic machines: lever, wedge, wheel, inclined plane,
> pulley, and fornication....
Fortunately, he never walked into our physics or biology classrooms.
R F
> In article <Xns936F80CE1...@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher says...
> >
> >I disagree with your overgeneralization [nothing like a question-
> >begging description to make a good argument, eh what?] about "That
> >sucks!" It was rude and offensive where I come from until _Fast Times
> >at Ridgemont High_, which seems to me to serve as some kind of
> >linguistic watershed. After that, nothing said in American English
> >could be considered rude and offensive unless it was sexist, racist,
> >ageist, or (dis)abledist.
...
> (Waiting to see if R Fontana takes your suggestion and adds "post-Ridgemont" to
> his dialexicon)....r
Nope. I continue to believe that _Fast Times_ was not a very
influential or culturally significant film.
As far as "sucks" goes, the watershed was actually the "disco sucks"
movement of the late 1970s.
Ben Zimmer
>
> On 1 May 2003, R H Draney wrote:
>
> > In article <Xns936F80CE1...@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher says...
> > >
> > >I disagree with your overgeneralization [nothing like a question-
> > >begging description to make a good argument, eh what?] about "That
> > >sucks!" It was rude and offensive where I come from until _Fast Times
> > >at Ridgemont High_, which seems to me to serve as some kind of
> > >linguistic watershed. After that, nothing said in American English
> > >could be considered rude and offensive unless it was sexist, racist,
> > >ageist, or (dis)abledist.
> ...
> > (Waiting to see if R Fontana takes your suggestion and adds "post-Ridgemont" to
> > his dialexicon)....r
>
> Nope. I continue to believe that _Fast Times_ was not a very
> influential or culturally significant film.
At the very least, it popularized "bogus", "wuss", and vocative "dude",
and repopularized vocative "bud" and non-ironic "cool". Name another
movie that made so many contributions to the vernacular.
> As far as "sucks" goes, the watershed was actually the "disco sucks"
> movement of the late 1970s.
I'm not even sure "sucks" was used in _FTaRH_. Doesn't show up in lists
of memorable quotes.
http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0083929
http://www.moviequotes.com/repository/titles/72429.html
R H Draney
>> tight...
>
>I hated the self-righteous bastard for all the years that I knew him.
>I'm hoping that his pustulated soul went to the hottest circle of Hell.
He was a high school principal...what other place would take him?...
(ObNothingToDoWithAUE: I've been able to get CDs of most of those Taiwanese pop
singers you helped identify for me...is your network of contacts up for another
batch?)...r
R F
> R F wrote:
> >
> > On 1 May 2003, R H Draney wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Xns936F80CE1...@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher says...
> > > >
> > > >I disagree with your overgeneralization [nothing like a question-
> > > >begging description to make a good argument, eh what?] about "That
> > > >sucks!" It was rude and offensive where I come from until _Fast Times
> > > >at Ridgemont High_, which seems to me to serve as some kind of
> > > >linguistic watershed. After that, nothing said in American English
> > > >could be considered rude and offensive unless it was sexist, racist,
> > > >ageist, or (dis)abledist.
> > ...
> > > (Waiting to see if R Fontana takes your suggestion and adds "post-Ridgemont" to
> > > his dialexicon)....r
> >
> > Nope. I continue to believe that _Fast Times_ was not a very
> > influential or culturally significant film.
>
> At the very least, it popularized "bogus", "wuss", and vocative "dude",
> and repopularized vocative "bud" and non-ironic "cool". Name another
> movie that made so many contributions to the vernacular.
Whoa, whoa, whoa nelly.
I'll grant you that _Fast Times_ helped popularize vocative "dude".
There seems to be little doubt about that. But I'd challenge your
other assertions.
"Wuss" and/or "wussy" were in extensive use in the New York region, and
maybe elsewhere, since Time Immemorial (= since at least about 1971).
I suspect that there was nothing to popularize by the time _Fast Times_
came along.
I think "bogus" was floating around in youth culture around 1980, give
or take. I remember thinking of it as a "Valley Girl"-ish sort of
word, like "awesome". Probably _Fast Times_ just picked up on
something that was already becoming widely known. If I were in a
charitable mood I might let you have "bogus".
Vocative "bud" experienced repopularization around 1979 or 1980, well
before _Fast Times_. I'm not sure *what* repopularized it, but I
remember my brother and his friends started saying "Yo, bud!" to one
another all the time. There has to be a reason. I'll bet addressive
"Yo" (popularized by _Rocky_ (1976, dir. S. Stallone)) isn't even used
in _Fast Times_.
As for non-ironic "cool", that's an interesting theory, but I don't buy
it. The repopularization of non-ironic "cool" was part of the
post-1960s counter-counter-cultural Fifties revivalism which can be
said to have begun when Sha Na Na performed at Woodstock in 1969. The
actual rebirth of "cool" began with the Fifties-set sitcom _Happy
Days_ (1974) and the cult of "The Fonz" among Post-Tonkin children
which resulted from it. By the time _Fast Times_ rolled around,
"cool" was already being used by the young people who would have
otherwise been likely to pick it up from _Fast Times_. Surely you do
not deny the truth of the Fonzie Thesis[TM], at least in its Weak
formulation!
R J Valentine
...
} I'm not even sure "sucks" was used in _FTaRH_. Doesn't show up in lists
} of memorable quotes.
}
} http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0083929
} http://www.moviequotes.com/repository/titles/72429.html
The "suck" usage in _Fast Times_ was I believe just after Mr. Hand tore up
Jeff Spic(c)oli's class schedule after he showed up late on the first day
of class (shortly after he had tumbled out of the vintage, smoke-filled
Volkswagen Bus) and sent him to the office, whereupon he said something
like "You suck!", which was indeed meant to be offensive. I don't recall
a usage of "That sucks" in that movie.
bcubbison
You'll also want to look at several decades of bathroom graffiti (the
documentation is lacking, though) , starting with the classic "For a
good time call -- " and becoming more graphic.
Then, Saturday Night Live's "The Coneheads on Family Feud" in 1979 for
an example of a similar development. Then Bart Simpson, 1989. Then
"Uncle Buck" on CBS, 1990. Then "Beavis and Butthead," 1993.
Brian Cubbison
Syracuse, NY
R Fontana
Those may provide valuable information regarding the use of "sucks" in the
television medium, but I think "sucks" was completely mainstream and
non-vulgar (when said of a thing) by 1979, among younger speakers at
least.
Donna Richoux
I saved the following post as the earliest movie reference cited so far:
>> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>> Subject: Re: History of "sucks" inquiry
>> From: Jack Gavin <jackgavi...@home.com>
>> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:51:07 GMT
>>
>> "R J Valentine" <r...@smart.net> wrote
>> [snip]
>> >
>> > Seems like it ought to be in _Animal House_ in 1978.
>>
>> I have the movie's companion book [1], and in it I find:
>>
>[snip]
>> 3. Bluto speaks: "I'm too fuckin' depressed. My love life sucks."
>> (p. 19)
>>
>> [1] *National Lampoon's Animal House*, by Chris Miller, 1978, ISBN
>> 930-368-81-9 [2]
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Jerry Friedman
> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ben Zimmer wrote:
>
> > R F wrote:
> > >
> > > On 1 May 2003, R H Draney wrote:
...
> > > > (Waiting to see if R Fontana takes your suggestion and adds "post-Ridgemont" to
> > > > his dialexicon)....r
> > >
> > > Nope. I continue to believe that _Fast Times_ was not a very
> > > influential or culturally significant film.
> >
> > At the very least, it popularized "bogus", "wuss", and vocative "dude",
> > and repopularized vocative "bud" and non-ironic "cool". Name another
> > movie that made so many contributions to the vernacular.
>
> Whoa, whoa, whoa nelly.
>
> I'll grant you that _Fast Times_ helped popularize vocative "dude".
> There seems to be little doubt about that. But I'd challenge your
> other assertions.
>
> "Wuss" and/or "wussy" were in extensive use in the New York region, and
> maybe elsewhere, since Time Immemorial (= since at least about 1971).
> I suspect that there was nothing to popularize by the time _Fast Times_
> came along.
The Cleveland region as well.
[snip "bogus"--I don't remember anything about it.]
> Vocative "bud" experienced repopularization around 1979 or 1980, well
> before _Fast Times_. I'm not sure *what* repopularized it, but I
> remember my brother and his friends started saying "Yo, bud!" to one
> another all the time. There has to be a reason. I'll bet addressive
> "Yo" (popularized by _Rocky_ (1976, dir. S. Stallone)) isn't even used
> in _Fast Times_.
Written by and starring S. Stallone, but directed by John G. Avildsen.
Who? Well, he also directed Karate Kid I, II, and III.
[snip the Fonzie Thesis]
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> >"screwed up", on the other hand, has always seemed to me to be working-
> >class (my social class) and not "polite" language. My high school
> >principal would have forbidden that too on the grounds that it was a
> >euphemism for "fucked up".
>
> Your high school principal obviously had his hat screwed on too tight...I have
> to wonder what the science class did when they got to the basic machines: lever,
> wedge, wheel, inclined plane, pulley, and fornication....
Well, "I screwed up" means the same as "I fucked up", just as "screw
you" means the same as "fuck you". What other meaning could "screw"
have here? "I screwed up" doesn't mean the same thing as "*I crumpled
up" or "*I twisted up". I think Franke's principal was right, at
least on this point.
--
Jerry Friedman
Skitt
> R H Draney wrote
>> CyberCypher says...
>>> "screwed up", on the other hand, has always seemed to me to be
>>> working-class (my social class) and not "polite" language.
>>> My high school principal would have forbidden that too on the
>>> grounds that it was a euphemism for "fucked up".
>>
>> Your high school principal obviously had his hat screwed on too
>> tight...I have to wonder what the science class did when they
>> got to the basic machines: lever, wedge, wheel, inclined plane,
>> pulley, and fornication....
>
> Well, "I screwed up" means the same as "I fucked up", just as "screw
> you" means the same as "fuck you". What other meaning could "screw"
> have here? "I screwed up" doesn't mean the same thing as "*I crumpled
> up" or "*I twisted up". I think Franke's principal was right, at
> least on this point.
It also means "I messed up." Another euphemism?
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Well, "I screwed up" means the same as "I fucked up",
The OED doesn't list "screw up" as part of the "fuck" sense (#13),
which includes "screw around", but rather as part of
12. a. _trans_. To twist round, esp. to twist with violence so as
to alter the shape. _to screw one's neck_: to kill by
wringing the neck. _to screw up_: to twist (e.g. a piece of
paper) into a spiral form.
b. To spoil, ruin; to pervert; to upset, disturb mentally.
_U.S. colloq_.
c. _colloq_. (orig. and chiefly _U.S._). _to screw up_: (a)
_intr_., to blunder, make an error; (b) _trans_., to make
a mess of, spoil, ruin; to confuse, upset, disturb
mentally.
although they do note that there may be a connection:
This use may have originated as a euphemism for to fuck up (see
FUCK v. 3) after sense 13 below.
It's somewhat interesting that the OED dates "screw up", as a verb
(1942) earlier than "fuck up" (1967 as a verb, 1958 as a noun) or even
"cock up" (1948). As a noun, "screw up" is a little later (1960).
But this probably only reflects how hard it is to get "fuck" into
print. ("Sweet fuck-all" is cited to 1960, but "sweet Fanny Adams" is
cited to 1919 and "sweet F.A." to 1944.) On the other hand "bugger
up" is cited back to 1923.
> just as "screw you" means the same as "fuck you". What other
> meaning could "screw" have here? "I screwed up" doesn't mean the
> same thing as "*I crumpled up" or "*I twisted up".
I'm not sure it doesn't. "It was fine until you screwed it up". I
can easily see that as implying a metaphorical change in shape. Note
that sense 12b is a few years earlier, with the first citation
1938 'E. QUEEN' _Four of Hearts_ iv. 54 'For gossakes!' yelled
Lew, jumping up. 'That screws everything!
"Mess up" is even older (1902 as a noun, as early as 1823 as a verb,
although it's somewhat hard to decide which are figurative quotes and
which are literal). In fact, it may well be that "mess" is the
original for both "screw/fuck/bugger up" and "screw/fuck/bugger
around/about". ("Mess around" seems to even predate "fool around".)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Other computer companies have spent
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |15 years working on fault-tolerant
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |computers. Microsoft has spent
|its time more fruitfully, working
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |on fault-tolerant *users*.
(650)857-7572
CyberCypher
Sure. Send them and I'll do better this time about responding more
quickly.
CyberCypher
news:96efe132.03050...@posting.google.com:
Even if he was right about that, his dogmatic refusal to allow any
euphemisms for four-letter-word profanity did not, as far as I can
remember, extend to euphemisms for blasphemy and other types of
profanation, despite his shirtsleeve piety. I'm sure he would have
preferred to hear "passed away" than "died". Inconsistent he was.
Despite the usually offensive (to someone) sources of all euphemisms,
the point to them is to use language that does not offend, not to
suppress ideas that may be offensive (some ideas are always going to be
offensive to someone)--that's what Newspeak is all about.
R J Valentine
...
} It's somewhat interesting that the OED dates "screw up", as a verb
} (1942) earlier than "fuck up" (1967 as a verb, 1958 as a noun) or even
} "cock up" (1948). As a noun, "screw up" is a little later (1960).
I'm thinking that "screw up" may be an etymological bank shot off "fuck
up" from "foul up", with no particular connection with "fuck up" other
than the rebound. "Fuck up" as a verb surely dates before the forties
with the SNAFU series so ignorantly portrayed in the bogus _Saving Private
Ryan_, and "foul up" was the euphemism of choice for the series in the
earliest dictionaries I remember finding it. I'm guessing that "foul" was
an original sort of usage, with "up" added as an intensive; that the SNAFU
series naughtified it; and that "screw up" was the natural successor to
"foul up". Good words dressed up in provocative clothing.
Where is that verbal-aggression fellow?
Ben Zimmer
>
> On Fri, 02 May 2003 06:11:19 -0700 Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> ...
> } I'm not even sure "sucks" was used in _FTaRH_. Doesn't show up in lists
> } of memorable quotes.
> }
> } http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0083929
> } http://www.moviequotes.com/repository/titles/72429.html
>
> The "suck" usage in _Fast Times_ was I believe just after Mr. Hand tore up
> Jeff Spic(c)oli's class schedule after he showed up late on the first day
> of class (shortly after he had tumbled out of the vintage, smoke-filled
> Volkswagen Bus) and sent him to the office, whereupon he said something
> like "You suck!", which was indeed meant to be offensive.
Nope, he said "you dick". Full scene with sound clips (and another
scene where the line is mentioned) below.
http://www.netwalk.com/~truegger/ftrh/dick.html
http://www.netwalk.com/~truegger/ftrh/bathroom.html
Ben Zimmer
I'll grant that some or all of these may have been floating around when
the movie was released in 1982. Perhaps some of them appear in Cameron
Crowe's 1981 novel that inspired the movie, but I've read that the Jeff
Spicoli character (responsible for all of the above terms except "wuss")
played only a minor role in the book. I know that the director Amy
Heckerling had a good ear for teen slang (as she would prove again in
1995 with _Clueless_), so perhaps she helped with the dialogue. But I
challenge you to find *any* of the above slang terms in a pre-1982
pop-cultural medium. Even that other great cultural landmark of 1982,
Frank and Moon-Unit Zappa's "Valley Girl", doesn't use any of the terms
(except for non-ironic "cool", as in "It'll be like really cool"):
http://www.nanuq.com/ashleigh/lyrics/v/valley_girl.html
> As for non-ironic "cool", that's an interesting theory, but I don't buy
> it. The repopularization of non-ironic "cool" was part of the
> post-1960s counter-counter-cultural Fifties revivalism which can be
> said to have begun when Sha Na Na performed at Woodstock in 1969. The
> actual rebirth of "cool" began with the Fifties-set sitcom _Happy
> Days_ (1974) and the cult of "The Fonz" among Post-Tonkin children
> which resulted from it. By the time _Fast Times_ rolled around,
> "cool" was already being used by the young people who would have
> otherwise been likely to pick it up from _Fast Times_. Surely you do
> not deny the truth of the Fonzie Thesis[TM], at least in its Weak
> formulation!
Well, I did say *non-ironic* "cool" (though some might argue that the
Spicoli character was ironic from beginning to end). As the esteemed
formulator of the Fonzie Thesis once wrote:
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=33be7b64f0ba680d
I noticed a gradual increase in youth usage of "cool"
during my teenage years, from about 1982 to 1987. I
can't recall a single usage of "cool" before 1982 that
was not ironical or jocular or Fonzie-referent in nature.
Even those were pretty uncommon if not completely
nonexistent...
I'd wager that _FTaRH_ and the "Valley Girl" song had a lot to do with
the post-'82 increase in usage.
Ben Zimmer
There was a much earlier movie reference, if you include the first known
usage of the saying, "There is no gravity. The earth sucks." It
appeared in _The Strawberry Statement_ (1970).
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B8B463A...@midway.uchicago.edu
Donna Richoux
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >
> > I saved the following post as the earliest movie reference cited so far:
> >
> > >> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
> > >> Subject: Re: History of "sucks" inquiry
> > >> From: Jack Gavin <jackgavi...@home.com>
> > >> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:51:07 GMT
> > >>
> > >> "R J Valentine" <r...@smart.net> wrote
> > >> [snip]
> > >> >
> > >> > Seems like it ought to be in _Animal House_ in 1978.
> > >>
> > >> I have the movie's companion book [1], and in it I find:
> > >>
> > >[snip]
> > >> 3. Bluto speaks: "I'm too fuckin' depressed. My love life sucks."
> > >> (p. 19)
> > >>
> > >> [1] *National Lampoon's Animal House*, by Chris Miller, 1978, ISBN
> > >> 930-368-81-9 [2]
>
> There was a much earlier movie reference, if you include the first known
> usage of the saying, "There is no gravity. The earth sucks." It
> appeared in _The Strawberry Statement_ (1970).
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B8B463A...@midway.uchicago.edu
Yes, I remember that one, but I don't think that is based the "sucks
hind tit/That sucks!" sort of use. My assumption (based on very little)
is that *that* joke comes from the bathroom-graffiti (oh, now I have to
look up how that is spelled) oral-sex one. "So-and-so sucks."
I base that assumption on very little, perhaps just the fact that the
only point inherent to the joke is the drawing power of the sucking
(gravity), not that it is simultaneously trying to say that the earth is
awful. You can read it that way (it's hard *not* to, nowadays) but it
packs in more than was intended. I think.
This reminds me of something that happened last week. I volunteer in an
elementary school, helping children find information books for their
reports and also magazine picture clippings to illustrate them. I was
told a child wanted pictures of "gravity." I blinked and said that
gravity was invisible, but maybe we could find planets, and Newton and
his apple, and so on. The other mother working there was quite puzzled,
and finally made clear that that what the child wanted was "graffiti."
The Dutch say it exactly like we say "gravity," and hearing it had made
me forget that the Dutch word for "gravity" is "zwaartekracht."
Jerry Friedman
...
> Those may provide valuable information regarding the use of "sucks" in the
> television medium, but I think "sucks" was completely mainstream and
> non-vulgar (when said of a thing) by 1979, among younger speakers at
> least.
Certainly mainstream, though I certainly felt it was vulgar. I have a
very clear memory of saying to a teacher, sometime between September
1973 and June 1975, that various things sucked. He didn't scold me,
but later I heard other students speculate that he was gay and I
worried that I'd tormented him or given him some kind of wrong idea
about me. So at that time "That sucks" was common among my peers, but
I still felt that the meaning was sexual and maybe improper.
--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> ...
> } It's somewhat interesting that the OED dates "screw up", as a verb
> } (1942) earlier than "fuck up" (1967 as a verb, 1958 as a noun) or even
> } "cock up" (1948). As a noun, "screw up" is a little later (1960).
> ...
>
> I'm thinking that "screw up" may be an etymological bank shot off "fuck
> up" from "foul up", with no particular connection with "fuck up" other
> than the rebound. "Fuck up" as a verb surely dates before the forties
> with the SNAFU series so ignorantly portrayed in the bogus _Saving Private
> Ryan_, and "foul up" was the euphemism of choice for the series in the
> earliest dictionaries I remember finding it. I'm guessing that "foul" was
> an original sort of usage, with "up" added as an intensive; that the SNAFU
> series naughtified it; and that "screw up" was the natural successor to
> "foul up". Good words dressed up in provocative clothing.
I had forgotten about "foul up". I had also forgotten about "SNAFU".
The OED dates the latter to 1941. Looking at the dates of "foul up"
is interesting. As a noun meaning "a state of muddle or confusion",
they only date it to 1953. As a verb meaing "to spoil, (cause) to
bungle or muddle (something or someone)", they date it to 1947. It's
only in the more literal sense of "to become foul" that they date it
back to 1922. I'd presume that this means that for the 1943 "SNAFU"
quotation that mentions "fouled up", it was still used in the more
literal sense.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |You cannot solve problems with the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |same type of thinking that created
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |them.
| Albert Einstein
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Ben Zimmer
What, you really think the original sense of "SNAFU" was "situation
normal, all befouled"?? I wouldn't read so much into the first dates of
OED citations, especially for 20th-century US slang. The noun
"foul-up", for instance, can be found much earlier than 1953. The
Proquest database has a Washington Post item from Aug. 21, 1944 (towards
the end of the Normandy invasion) with the headline, "It's 'Fouled Up'
Anyway, 'SNAFU' or 'JANFU'":
The Navy has a new wisecrack. Everybody knows by now
the old expression "snafu," meaning "situation normal,
all fouled up."
Today it has become "janfu"-- "joint Army-Navy foulup."
One website says that JANFU appeared in print a year earlier-- in Time
Magazine coverage of the Battle for Kiska in August 1943 (a notorious
Allied "invasion" of an Aleutian island where Japanese forces were
believed to be based-- American and Canadian forces fought for two days
before realizing they were shooting at each other):
http://www.multipointproductions.com/heroes/henri/the-battle-for-kiska-story.htm
Mike Oliver
> One website says that JANFU appeared in print a year earlier-- in Time
> Magazine coverage of the Battle for Kiska in August 1943 (a notorious
> Allied "invasion" of an Aleutian island where Japanese forces were
> believed to be based-- American and Canadian forces fought for two days
> before realizing they were shooting at each other):
>
> http://www.multipointproductions.com/heroes/henri/the-battle-for-kiska-story.htm
It omits to mention who won, the Americans or the Canadians, though
the Canadians apparently won in terms of number of kills, 28-4.
Donna Richoux
RHHDAS has plenty citations of "foul up" as a verb and noun, and
"fouled-up" as an adjective, in 1942, 1943, and 1944. They call it Navy
slang and, for origin, they say "Frequently regarded as a euphemism for
'fuck up'."
As worthy as the OED may be, I think it is somewhat weak in the area of
US slang. No book can do everything.
R J Valentine
...
} RHHDAS has plenty citations of "foul up" as a verb and noun, and
} "fouled-up" as an adjective, in 1942, 1943, and 1944. They call it Navy
} slang and, for origin, they say "Frequently regarded as a euphemism for
} 'fuck up'."
}
} As worthy as the OED may be, I think it is somewhat weak in the area of
} US slang. No book can do everything.
Yeah, but what if they're right, that it's merely frequently regarded as a
euphemism for 'fuck up'? What if in fact the original expression is "foul
up" and that "fuck up" is merely a dysphemism for that, coined by young
folks flexing their verbal-aggression muscle? What if "screw up" is then
a eudysphemism for that, with "foul up" never having been vulgar at all
and "screw up" only slightly tarnished in the process, you know, like when
you ROT13 things twice? What then?
Don't the citation dates fit that and not fit the other?
Donna Richoux
> On Sun, 4 May 2003 19:53:51 +0200 Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
> ...
> } RHHDAS has plenty citations of "foul up" as a verb and noun, and
> } "fouled-up" as an adjective, in 1942, 1943, and 1944. They call it Navy
> } slang and, for origin, they say "Frequently regarded as a euphemism for
> } 'fuck up'."
> }
> } As worthy as the OED may be, I think it is somewhat weak in the area of
> } US slang. No book can do everything.
>
> Yeah, but what if they're right, that it's merely frequently regarded as a
> euphemism for 'fuck up'?
Tiny correction-- that was in regard to its *origin*. That doesn't mean
quite the same as if it were still being regarded as such a euphemism
today. Not everyone agree with me, but I think a word can lose its
euphemistic status (if it had one) and just become a word in its own
right.
>What if in fact the original expression is "foul
> up" and that "fuck up" is merely a dysphemism for that, coined by young
> folks flexing their verbal-aggression muscle? What if "screw up" is then
> a eudysphemism for that, with "foul up" never having been vulgar at all
> and "screw up" only slightly tarnished in the process, you know, like when
> you ROT13 things twice? What then?
>
> Don't the citation dates fit that and not fit the other?
For that, I'd have to compare the dates given for "fuck up"... Well,
they are not very different:
fucked-up (adj) 1939
fuck-up (noun) 1945
fuck up (verb) a single British cite, dated 1916-1929, about WWI: "And
they'll call up all the women/When they've fucked up all the men" Next
citation, 1942.
With these, you have to consider what publishers were willing to print.
I think after the rough experiences of WWII, following various social
liberations of the 1920s & 30s, they would have been slightly more
willing to print "fuck" in any form than before. But they were still
hesitant. Norman Mailer used "fug up" in his war novel.
Whereas publishers wouldn't have hesitated to print "foul up," yet
*still* we don't have any earlier citations. It sounds simple and
ancient, as if it could have been said by Shakespeare or on clipper
ships, but there's no record that it was.
Robert Bannister
Although I never heard 'that sucks' or 'you suck' before the 70s, I'm
pretty sure the expression 'sucking up to someone' was used much earlier
and had no obvious sexual connotations at the time.
--
Rob Bannister
Donna Richoux
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > R Fontana <rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote
> >
> >>Those may provide valuable information regarding the use of "sucks" in
> >>the television medium, but I think "sucks" was completely mainstream and
> >>non-vulgar (when said of a thing) by 1979, among younger speakers at
> >>least.
> >
> >
> > Certainly mainstream, though I certainly felt it was vulgar. I have a
> > very clear memory of saying to a teacher, sometime between September
> > 1973 and June 1975, that various things sucked. He didn't scold me,
> > but later I heard other students speculate that he was gay and I
> > worried that I'd tormented him or given him some kind of wrong idea
> > about me. So at that time "That sucks" was common among my peers, but
> > I still felt that the meaning was sexual and maybe improper.
> >
>
> Although I never heard 'that sucks' or 'you suck' before the 70s, I'm
> pretty sure the expression 'sucking up to someone' was used much earlier
> and had no obvious sexual connotations at the time.
True, there have been many, many colloquial uses of "suck" which after
all is perfectly ordinary English word. The way people are going on now,
you would think that "to suck on a cough drop" was something obscene.
That one, "suck up to," is dated mid-19th c by Cassell's Dictionary of
Slang. To curry favour, to grovel, to toady. Various synonyms such as
bootlicker and ass-kisser.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> >
> > I had forgotten about "foul up". I had also forgotten about "SNAFU".
> > The OED dates the latter to 1941. Looking at the dates of "foul up"
> > is interesting. As a noun meaning "a state of muddle or confusion",
> > they only date it to 1953. As a verb meaing "to spoil, (cause) to
> > bungle or muddle (something or someone)", they date it to 1947. It's
> > only in the more literal sense of "to become foul" that they date it
> > back to 1922. I'd presume that this means that for the 1943 "SNAFU"
> > quotation that mentions "fouled up", it was still used in the more
> > literal sense.
>
> What, you really think the original sense of "SNAFU" was "situation
> normal, all befouled"??
No, I'm sure it was "fucked up". However, if "fouled up" at the time
was indeed still narrowly "befouled", it would seem quite possible
that it's use as a euphemism in the definition of "SNAFU" and the like
may have led to its extension to a general "mess up" sense.
> I wouldn't read so much into the first dates of OED citations,
> especially for 20th-century US slang.
For those of us without access to Proquest, it's the best we can do.
> The noun "foul-up", for instance, can be found much earlier than
> 1953. The Proquest database has a Washington Post item from
> Aug. 21, 1944 (towards the end of the Normandy invasion) with the
> headline, "It's 'Fouled Up' Anyway, 'SNAFU' or 'JANFU'":
>
> The Navy has a new wisecrack. Everybody knows by now
> the old expression "snafu," meaning "situation normal,
> all fouled up."
> Today it has become "janfu"-- "joint Army-Navy foulup."
I hope you're sending these antedatings to the OED. (Although
hopefully *they* have (and use) a Proquest subscription.) If this is
the first instance of "foulup" there, though, it lends credence to the
notion that the extended sense came by way of these euphemistic
definitions. Are there any uses in between this and the early '50s
unconnected with the acronyms? Say, in the sports section?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Jerry Friedman
The U.S., as Kiska is still part of our country--though having it be a
Canadian exclave would have been impractical.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Oliver
> Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote in message news:<3EB4C384...@math.ucla.edu>...
>> Ben Zimmer wrote:
>>> http://www.multipointproductions.com/heroes/henri/the-battle-for-kiska-story.htm
>>
>> It omits to mention who won, the Americans or the Canadians, though
>> the Canadians apparently won in terms of number of kills, 28-4.
>
I don't know that that's the right test. Iraq, as far as I know, is
still a part of Iraq.
I do find it interesting how often we hear that our occupation force is
not an occupation force. What else could it be? Occupation is the only
responsible thing we can do, at least in the short term. Should we
have knocked off Saddam's regime and then run off to do another good deed?
There seems to be some peculiar assonance to "occupation" in that part
of the world, though, perhaps related to the Israeli "occupations" which
last decades and show no clear signs that they're ever intended to end.
I think that use of "occupation" is a bit of a euphemism, and unfortunately
it's now difficult to find a descriptive word for the occupation we exercised
in Japan and Germany after the Second World War.
Jerry Friedman
> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
...
> > Although I never heard 'that sucks' or 'you suck' before the 70s, I'm
> > pretty sure the expression 'sucking up to someone' was used much earlier
> > and had no obvious sexual connotations at the time.
>
> True, there have been many, many colloquial uses of "suck" which after
> all is perfectly ordinary English word. The way people are going on now,
> you would think that "to suck on a cough drop" was something obscene.
>
> That one, "suck up to," is dated mid-19th c by Cassell's Dictionary of
> Slang. To curry favour, to grovel, to toady. Various synonyms such as
> bootlicker and ass-kisser.
Any theories on the origin?
--
Jerry Friedman
Ben Zimmer
>
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > >
> > > I had forgotten about "foul up". I had also forgotten about "SNAFU".
> > > The OED dates the latter to 1941. Looking at the dates of "foul up"
> > > is interesting. As a noun meaning "a state of muddle or confusion",
> > > they only date it to 1953. As a verb meaing "to spoil, (cause) to
> > > bungle or muddle (something or someone)", they date it to 1947. It's
> > > only in the more literal sense of "to become foul" that they date it
> > > back to 1922. I'd presume that this means that for the 1943 "SNAFU"
> > > quotation that mentions "fouled up", it was still used in the more
> > > literal sense.
> >
> > What, you really think the original sense of "SNAFU" was "situation
> > normal, all befouled"??
>
> No, I'm sure it was "fucked up". However, if "fouled up" at the time
> was indeed still narrowly "befouled", it would seem quite possible
> that it's use as a euphemism in the definition of "SNAFU" and the like
> may have led to its extension to a general "mess up" sense.
Yes, I think that's possible, though the extension of the sense may have
already begun before the euphemization (see below).
> > I wouldn't read so much into the first dates of OED citations,
> > especially for 20th-century US slang.
>
> For those of us without access to Proquest, it's the best we can do.
>
> > The noun "foul-up", for instance, can be found much earlier than
> > 1953. The Proquest database has a Washington Post item from
> > Aug. 21, 1944 (towards the end of the Normandy invasion) with the
> > headline, "It's 'Fouled Up' Anyway, 'SNAFU' or 'JANFU'":
> >
> > The Navy has a new wisecrack. Everybody knows by now
> > the old expression "snafu," meaning "situation normal,
> > all fouled up."
> > Today it has become "janfu"-- "joint Army-Navy foulup."
>
> I hope you're sending these antedatings to the OED. (Although
> hopefully *they* have (and use) a Proquest subscription.) If this is
> the first instance of "foulup" there, though, it lends credence to the
> notion that the extended sense came by way of these euphemistic
> definitions. Are there any uses in between this and the early '50s
> unconnected with the acronyms? Say, in the sports section?
Donna mentioned that RHHDAS has various WWII-era citations for "foul up"
as a verb and noun, and "fouled-up" as an adjective. In print media
these all started to flourish after the war, though they tended at first
to be used in military contexts (not always in conjunction with the
acronyms). Some examples:
Thousand Men and a Ship
New York Times; Mar 12, 1944; pg. SM6
For another month, through several disheartening foul-ups
that culminated when the ship carrying the new boiler tubes
ran aground within a few miles of the base...
Surplus Slow-Up; Criticism Of Disposal Grows as Sales Lag
Wall Street Journal; Dec 5, 1945; pg. 1
Surplus disposal is all fouled up.
Erratic Radio Waves 'Skip' Across Country to Baffle Cops
The Washington Post; Oct 15, 1946; pg. 11
The Federal Communications Commission admitted yesterday
things are sure fouled up in the short wave radio world.
Snafued Time
The Washington Post; Apr 25, 1948; pg. B4
Opponents of daylight-saving time for the District of
Columbia will gain ammunition from the foul-up caused today
by the advancement of clocks one hour in most Eastern urban
areas while Washington remains on standard time. This
foul-up is the direct result of the failure of the House...
District Guard Reaches Camp Without Gear; Messkits, Uniforms,
Boots Flown There To Ease Emergency
The Washington Post; Jul 27, 1948; pg. 1
The snafu was termed "an utter failure of supply" by the
Second Army officer. [...] The Guard chief said he was
inclined to believe the foulup was caused in part by heavy
recruiting in the last 60 days.
By 1949, the verb form was common enough to be used by Washington Post
headline writers in a variety of contexts:
Folderal Fact-Finding Fouls Up a Few Fables On Federal
Forensicists
The Washington Post; Feb 4, 1949; pg. C2
Mob at Opening Of Hotel Fouls Up Lamour Program
The Washington Post; Mar 19, 1949; pg. B7
Calendar Fouls Up Policeman's Work
The Washington Post; Sep 30, 1949; pg. C5
Coach Enters 80-Minute Game, Clock Fouls Up; 7 Foul Out
The Washington Post; Jan 8, 1951; pg. 7
It's interesting to note that pre-WWII uses of "foul(ed) up" often had
to do with engines getting clogged up (see OED2 sense 1b), e.g.:
Your Automobile; Timely Tips on its Care
The Washington Post; Jan 10, 1926
How are you to localize the trouble so that you can say that
it's carburetor trouble, a sticking valve or a fouled up
spark plug?
Speed, Spray and Spills
New York Times; Aug 11, 1940; pg. 87
Modern high-speed engines will idle for only a few seconds
before "fouling up" and starting to miss.
So it's easy to see how this could lend itself to an extended sense
(among engine-tinkering mechanics in the military) to refer to any
mechanical failure. Then when a euphemism was needed for the expansion
of the acronyms, "foul(ed) up" would have been an obvious choice.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> It's interesting to note that pre-WWII uses of "foul(ed) up" often
> had to do with engines getting clogged up (see OED2 sense 1b), e.g.:
>
> Your Automobile; Timely Tips on its Care
> The Washington Post; Jan 10, 1926
> How are you to localize the trouble so that you can say that
> it's carburetor trouble, a sticking valve or a fouled up
> spark plug?
>
> Speed, Spray and Spills
> New York Times; Aug 11, 1940; pg. 87
> Modern high-speed engines will idle for only a few seconds
> before "fouling up" and starting to miss.
>
> So it's easy to see how this could lend itself to an extended sense
> (among engine-tinkering mechanics in the military) to refer to any
> mechanical failure. Then when a euphemism was needed for the
> expansion of the acronyms, "foul(ed) up" would have been an obvious
> choice.
Just out of curiousity, are there any similar mechanical contrivances
that, in the same time frame, got "screwed up" (as in "twisted" or
"bent out of shape") when they failed?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The General Theorem of Usenet
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|the wrong information, and wait for
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(650)857-7572 |excruciating detail precisely how
|wrong you are.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Eric The Read
R H Draney
>
>Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> >
>> > I had forgotten about "foul up". I had also forgotten about "SNAFU".
>> > The OED dates the latter to 1941. Looking at the dates of "foul up"
>> > is interesting. As a noun meaning "a state of muddle or confusion",
>> > they only date it to 1953. As a verb meaing "to spoil, (cause) to
>> > bungle or muddle (something or someone)", they date it to 1947. It's
>> > only in the more literal sense of "to become foul" that they date it
>> > back to 1922. I'd presume that this means that for the 1943 "SNAFU"
>> > quotation that mentions "fouled up", it was still used in the more
>> > literal sense.
>>
>> What, you really think the original sense of "SNAFU" was "situation
>> normal, all befouled"??
>
>No, I'm sure it was "fucked up". However, if "fouled up" at the time
>was indeed still narrowly "befouled", it would seem quite possible
>that it's use as a euphemism in the definition of "SNAFU" and the like
>may have led to its extension to a general "mess up" sense.
As lunch would have it, I recently came into possession of a DVD that collects a
number of the old "Private Snafu" cartoons that were shown during WWII to the
troops to indoctrinate them into the habit of following orders (even when they
didn't understand the reasons for those orders)...in the earliest one, which
must have been made around 1942, the Army included an explanation of the
character's name, which they explain as standing for "Situation Normal,
All--ahem--Fouled Up"...it's obvious even today that the throat-clearing marks
this as a euphemism, and it's reasonable to assume that just about every soldier
who saw it back in the day knew what the real expansion of the acronym was....
Two of the films make reference to the private's brother "Tarfu" ("Things Are
Really Fucked Up") as having things easier than the titular hero, at least in
*his* view...no mention of a cousin "Fubar" that I noticed....r
Ben Zimmer
>
> As lunch would have it, I recently came into possession of a DVD that collects a
> number of the old "Private Snafu" cartoons that were shown during WWII to the
> troops to indoctrinate them into the habit of following orders (even when they
> didn't understand the reasons for those orders)...in the earliest one, which
> must have been made around 1942, the Army included an explanation of the
> character's name, which they explain as standing for "Situation Normal,
> All--ahem--Fouled Up"...it's obvious even today that the throat-clearing marks
> this as a euphemism, and it's reasonable to assume that just about every soldier
> who saw it back in the day knew what the real expansion of the acronym was....
>
> Two of the films make reference to the private's brother "Tarfu" ("Things Are
> Really Fucked Up") as having things easier than the titular hero, at least in
> *his* view...no mention of a cousin "Fubar" that I noticed....r
If you have "The Complete Uncensored Private Snafu" it should include
the 1944 Friz Freleng cartoon "The Three Brothers", which I believe
stars Snafu, Tarfu, and Fubar.
http://www.toonzone.net/brian/video/dvd/snafu.html
http://www.tultw.com/bios/snafu.htm
R H Draney
>
>If you have "The Complete Uncensored Private Snafu" it should include
>the 1944 Friz Freleng cartoon "The Three Brothers", which I believe
>stars Snafu, Tarfu, and Fubar.
>
>http://www.toonzone.net/brian/video/dvd/snafu.html
>http://www.tultw.com/bios/snafu.htm
That's the one, complete with the intrusive "Bosko Video" bug at irregular
intervals...I must have missed the reference to the third brother when I viewed
it; I'd go back and watch that one again but the disk is out on loan to a close
relative...I can get it back from her when I pick up my cane next week (could
have used that a couple of weeks ago after I bruised my heel marching off to
jury duty)....r