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Zaurus and Python, a good combination

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Ron Stephens

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May 12, 2002, 6:07:40 PM5/12/02
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Thanks to the folks at Riverbank Computing you can download a Python
interpreter that runs on the ARM and Linux based Sharp Zaurus PDA;
Riverbank's web site at http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/zaurus/ is
the place to go for this download. There ar also downloads for many
Python librairies for the ARM.

Having splurged and bought my first -ever PDA, a Zaurus, I am quite
pleased. I am runing many of my own personal Python scripts on the
Zaurus, from the BASH shell command line terminal program provided. I
have discussed this with many folks who own or are considering buying a
Zaurus, at the Zaurus home page at http://www.zauruszone.com/ and
several of them have also taken an interest and are trying out Python
programs on the Zaurus.

I recently read an interview with Guido van Rossum (I think it was in
Linux Journal) where Guido commented that programming for PDA's or
handhled computers might be one of the brightest spots in Python's future.
I am intrigued by this. The Zaurus' command line BASH shell, combined
with the built-in keyboard is great for this purpose.
I don't think that a command line without a built in keyboard would
be nearly as good for this purpose; I need the keyboard for entering
data and such, and
the Zaurus' keyboard is almost as good as a real keyboard for me, to my
surprise; it feels natural.

Does anyone know if the Compaq IPAQ and PALM devices have command line
interfaces? I guess they must , since I believe I have read about Python
ports to both the Windows CE and the PALM operating systems. Still, with
its thumboard, the Zaurus is pretty hard to beat (The Zaurus also
features an online "keyboard,", a "pickBoard", and handwriting
recognition, but the thumboard makes the Zaurus pretty hard to beat.
The Zaurus also comes with a built-in JEDOE JVM in order to make porting
Java progrtasm eassy, and to make
developing new Java bsed code for the Zaurus easy.Also, the Zaurus has
its native QT-based Qtopia environment.
I am trying to learn PyQt
and Black Adder to make GUI programs for the Zaurus (although I don't
know if or how hard it would be to port PyQt to the machine?) But even on
the command line, Python shines in my opinion.

So, if anyone is looking for new realms to conquer with their Python
skills, I heartily recommend the Sharp Zaurus.

I don't know if PyQt programs can be turned into ipkg files, that are
automatically installable on the Zaurus, but I suspect with work they
might be.

Anyway, I have re-organized my web site and created a page for all the
Python scripts I have tested on the Zaurus already, and quite a few
folks from the Zaurus-online board are trying them out. The newly
organized site is best entered from http://www.awaretek.com

Happy Pythoneering to all...;-)))

Ron Stephens
http://www.awaretek.com


Alex Martelli

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May 12, 2002, 6:45:17 PM5/12/02
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Ron Stephens wrote:
...

> So, if anyone is looking for new realms to conquer with their Python
> skills, I heartily recommend the Sharp Zaurus.

I've been lusting for it since I first saw the pre-announcement of a
"developers version" many moons ago. But Sharp is very rigid about
selling it only in a few countries (Italy not currently included) AND in
each country sells only the version with that country's keyboard layout
(so that buying one, e.g., from Germany, where it IS for sale, would
not avail me much -- I want a US keyboard layout!). They even forbid their
retailers from exporting it, or I'd have an amazon.com-ordered one in my
hands already:-(. You would think they'd never heard of globalization, or
were part of the forces fighting against it...


Alex

David LeBlanc

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May 12, 2002, 6:42:12 PM5/12/02
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The iPaq Python port has it's own python shell (pyshell?) in lieu of a
commandline prompt. It uses the iPaq internal stylus "tap" input drivers
(on-screen keyboard and 2 forms of "cursive" input recognition). I don't
know, but I would assume that if the "thumbboard" (virtually identical to
similar products for Palm and the zarius built-in) or stowaway keyboard 3rd
party options are installed, then those could be used.

Seiko has released a most interesting input device (named something like
"ink to me"): it's a thingie that clips onto the top of a standard notepad
(paper) and captures and saves to a compatible pocket pc via cable or irda.
I don't know if it does character recognition, but t'would be pretty
interesting if it does! Seiko also has fancy (expensive!) folders that one's
pocket pc fits into that do the same. This has the advantage (for some
people) of just being the guts (and the folder ones are hard wired, not
irda).

Dave LeBlanc
Seattle, WA USA

<snip>


> Does anyone know if the Compaq IPAQ and PALM devices have command line
> interfaces? I guess they must , since I believe I have read about Python
> ports to both the Windows CE and the PALM operating systems. Still, with
> its thumboard, the Zaurus is pretty hard to beat (The Zaurus also
> features an online "keyboard,", a "pickBoard", and handwriting
> recognition, but the thumboard makes the Zaurus pretty hard to beat.

<snip>

Dave Reed

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May 12, 2002, 7:07:02 PM5/12/02
to
> From: Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net>

>
> Thanks to the folks at Riverbank Computing you can download a Python
> interpreter that runs on the ARM and Linux based Sharp Zaurus PDA;
> Riverbank's web site at http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/zaurus/ is
> the place to go for this download. There ar also downloads for many
> Python librairies for the ARM.

<snip>

> The Zaurus also comes with a built-in JEDOE JVM in order to make porting
> Java progrtasm eassy, and to make
> developing new Java bsed code for the Zaurus easy.Also, the Zaurus has
> its native QT-based Qtopia environment.
> I am trying to learn PyQt
> and Black Adder to make GUI programs for the Zaurus (although I don't
> know if or how hard it would be to port PyQt to the machine?) But even on
> the command line, Python shines in my opinion.
>
> So, if anyone is looking for new realms to conquer with their Python
> skills, I heartily recommend the Sharp Zaurus.
>
> I don't know if PyQt programs can be turned into ipkg files, that are
> automatically installable on the Zaurus, but I suspect with work they
> might be.


The Riverbank Computing folks have already ported PyQt to the
Zaurus

http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/download/PyQt/

I've already written a couple PyQt programs for personal use on my
Zaurus with it. This was my first use of Qt (used Motif years ago and
GTK more recently). So far I still like GTK better, but I don't know
Qt well enough yet to make much of a judgment.

One thing I have noticed is that the Zaurus "mouse button" doesn't
seem to generate PyQt signals - I'm going to mail Phil at River Bank
and see if this is a known issue. Other than that it works quite well.


> Ron Stephens
> http://www.awaretek.com


Dave


Paul Rubin

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May 12, 2002, 7:25:34 PM5/12/02
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You can buy the developers version on ebay for 300 usd or so.

Gerhard Häring

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May 12, 2002, 7:16:22 PM5/12/02
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* Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net> [2002-05-12 22:07 +0000]:

> Does anyone know if the Compaq IPAQ and PALM devices have command line
> interfaces?

No keyboard, but the iPAQ has almost the same hardware as the Zaurus,
and I'm running opie on it, which is even binary compatible to the
Zaurus' Qtopia environment.

> [...] I am trying to learn PyQt and Black Adder to make GUI programs


> for the Zaurus (although I don't know if or how hard it would be to
> port PyQt to the machine?)

I beg your pardon? http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/pyqt/download.php
Install the packages and off you go.

It _is_ fairly hard to port PyQt to Qt embedded. I and some others tried
before. But furtunately, the PyQt maintainer has done this himself now
:-))

> [...] I don't know if PyQt programs can be turned into ipkg files,


> that are automatically installable on the Zaurus, but I suspect with
> work they might be.

Sure that's possible, an example is available from the PyQt maintainer,
IIRC.

Gerhard
--
mail: gerhard <at> bigfoot <dot> de registered Linux user #64239
web: http://www.cs.fhm.edu/~ifw00065/ OpenPGP public key id AD24C930
public key fingerprint: 3FCC 8700 3012 0A9E B0C9 3667 814B 9CAA AD24 C930
reduce(lambda x,y:x+y,map(lambda x:chr(ord(x)^42),tuple('zS^BED\nX_FOY\x0b')))


Laura Creighton

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May 12, 2002, 8:22:56 PM5/12/02
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> * Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net> [2002-05-12 22:07 +0000]:
> > Does anyone know if the Compaq IPAQ and PALM devices have command line
> > interfaces?
>
> No keyboard, but the iPAQ has almost the same hardware as the Zaurus,
> and I'm running opie on it, which is even binary compatible to the
> Zaurus' Qtopia environment.

If you want a keyboard:
http://www.targus.com/accessories_pda.asp

check out the stowaway keyboard. I've got one for my Palm, but
there is one available for the IpaQ It's great.

Laura Creighton


Ron Stephens

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May 12, 2002, 9:30:16 PM5/12/02
to
Thanks, Gerhard, Dave, David, Paul, and others....so now I have infinite
incentive to study Boudewijn Rempt's book, "GUI Programming with Python
using the QT Toolkit".

I absolutely promise myself , here and now, to read and think about
nothing else (except during working hours of course, wink wink ;-)))
for my whole trip upcoming. I leave home on Tuesday and am, off -and on,
on the road for three weeks. I should be able to absorb the book in
those three weeks.

I really want to avoid the syndrome of scattering my thoughts all over
the place. I must focus and concentrate ;-))

Alex, it really is a good machine. I sure hope you are able to get one
soon. I think it is dumb for the Sharp folks to be so anal-retentive
about their marekting efforts. Thye should sell as many as they can,
whenever and wherever they can.

In my real-life day job (nothing to do with computers or programming), I
am more or less in marketing, and have been all my life, regardless of
what my various offical titles were. And while, in my programming hobby life
my mind lusts and wanders all over the place, in my day job I have
learned to really focus ruthlesly on sales , sales, and sales. Take the
order
offf the street and move on the next challenge.

Cheers, and chow...(and thanks again to all of you for the information)

Alex Martelli

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May 13, 2002, 3:34:58 AM5/13/02
to
Ron Stephens wrote:

> Thanks, Gerhard, Dave, David, Paul, and others....so now I have infinite
> incentive to study Boudewijn Rempt's book, "GUI Programming with Python
> using the QT Toolkit".

It's a good book! However:

> I absolutely promise myself , here and now, to read and think about
> nothing else (except during working hours of course, wink wink ;-)))
> for my whole trip upcoming. I leave home on Tuesday and am, off -and on,
> on the road for three weeks. I should be able to absorb the book in
> those three weeks.

...unless you have a laptop with PyQt (and all the other components it
needs -- Python, Qt, etc:-) and the code for the book's examples along
with you, I suspect you won't be getting as much as you could out of
your study. Experimenting with all the concepts as they're presented
is really helpful, PyQt is an excellent environment for this, and the
book strongly oriented to such hands-on work.

> Alex, it really is a good machine. I sure hope you are able to get one
> soon. I think it is dumb for the Sharp folks to be so anal-retentive
> about their marekting efforts. Thye should sell as many as they can,
> whenever and wherever they can.

...particularly, I should think, regarding sales that may (one hopes)
have positive appeal on the product's attractiveness to other buyers
down the road. For a computer, this means that selling a unit to a
developer (particularly one who feels some enthusiasm about the
machine) has high importance -- the machine's attractiveness to most
potential buyers depends strictly on the amount, quality and variety
of applications available for it, and getting the machine into the
hands of enthusiastic developers is one way to help on this score.

Moreover, Sharp seems to get it at some level -- they've long had a
"developers' program" going, with discounts etc. BUT -- limited
to developers living in country A, B, or C; developers living in
countries D, E, &c, are apparently of no interest to Sharp. Great
for those who think programming SHOULD be segregated by country,
which each developer narrowly focusing on his or her national
language and culture, no doubt. I suspect you can all guess how
this attitude strikes me without me having to pour our a few zillion
well-chosen expletives, yes?


Alex

Brad Clements

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May 13, 2002, 11:59:20 AM5/13/02
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"David LeBlanc" <whi...@oz.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1021243041...@python.org...

> The iPaq Python port has it's own python shell (pyshell?) in lieu of a
> commandline prompt. It uses the iPaq internal stylus "tap" input drivers
> (on-screen keyboard and 2 forms of "cursive" input recognition). I don't
> know, but I would assume that if the "thumbboard" (virtually identical to
> similar products for Palm and the zarius built-in) or stowaway keyboard
3rd
> party options are installed, then those could be used.

The iPaQ port uses "pcceshell.py" which is a modified ceshell.py.

It works just fine with my Targus Stowaway keyboard.

--

I'm really looking forward to wxWindows for the iPaQ, if that comes out,
I'll do the Python part and get it integrated in the iPaQ release.

Unfortunately the person who claims to be doing that port hasn't answered
any of my email messages. (Koan software?)


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David LeBlanc

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May 13, 2002, 2:07:20 PM5/13/02
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Hmmm.. good to know about the stowaway - i've been considering picking one
up, especially now that there's an iPaq 3800 version.

Have you considered tkinter on iPaq? After all, tcl, and more importantly,
tk have been ported to ppc.

I really have to get across town and pick up my ppc dev tools <sigh>

David LeBlanc
Seattle, WA USA

> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Kragen Sitaker

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May 17, 2002, 3:23:02 AM5/17/02
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"David LeBlanc" <whi...@oz.net> writes:
> Hmmm.. good to know about the stowaway - i've been considering picking one
> up, especially now that there's an iPaq 3800 version.
>
> Have you considered tkinter on iPaq? After all, tcl, and more importantly,
> tk have been ported to ppc.
>
> I really have to get across town and pick up my ppc dev tools <sigh>

The iPaq and Zaurus use ARM, not PPC. I don't think there's a PPC
that stingy with power.

Gerhard Häring

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May 17, 2002, 10:38:55 PM5/17/02
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* David LeBlanc <whi...@oz.net> [2002-05-17 19:38 -0700]:
> [...] Speaking of power, I saw some mention that the new x-scale arm
> processors use less power at 2x the speed of the current arm
> processor. Damn - more battery life! :-)

My uneducated guess is that the colour LCD is sucking the most energy.

David LeBlanc

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May 17, 2002, 10:38:39 PM5/17/02
to
ppc = Pocket PC

Speaking of power, I saw some mention that the new x-scale arm processors
use less power at 2x the speed of the current arm processor. Damn - more
battery life! :-)

David LeBlanc
Seattle, WA USA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-l...@python.org
> [mailto:python-l...@python.org]On Behalf Of Kragen Sitaker
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 0:23
> To: pytho...@python.org
> Subject: Re: Zaurus and Python, a good combination
>
>

> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

David LeBlanc

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May 17, 2002, 11:02:46 PM5/17/02
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And specifically the backlight for said color LCD. My iPaq runs a lot longer
between charges when the backlight is off.

WRT the processor power draw: every little bit helps.

David LeBlanc
Seattle, WA USA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-l...@python.org
> [mailto:python-l...@python.org]On Behalf Of Gerhard Häring
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 19:39
> To: pytho...@python.org
> Subject: Re: Zaurus and Python, a good combination
>
>

> * David LeBlanc <whi...@oz.net> [2002-05-17 19:38 -0700]:

> > [...] Speaking of power, I saw some mention that the new x-scale arm


> > processors use less power at 2x the speed of the current arm
> > processor. Damn - more battery life! :-)
>

> My uneducated guess is that the colour LCD is sucking the most energy.
>
> Gerhard
> --
> mail: gerhard <at> bigfoot <dot> de registered Linux user #64239
> web: http://www.cs.fhm.edu/~ifw00065/ OpenPGP public key id AD24C930
> public key fingerprint: 3FCC 8700 3012 0A9E B0C9 3667 814B 9CAA AD24 C930
> reduce(lambda x,y:x+y,map(lambda
> x:chr(ord(x)^42),tuple('zS^BED\nX_FOY\x0b')))
>
>

> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Kragen Sitaker

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May 20, 2002, 8:56:45 PM5/20/02
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"David LeBlanc" <whi...@oz.net> writes:
> ppc = Pocket PC

Oh, sorry --- I assumed you meant the other PPC.

> Speaking of power, I saw some mention that the new x-scale arm processors
> use less power at 2x the speed of the current arm processor. Damn - more
> battery life! :-)

That's awesome! It's too bad Intel crushed Digital with their
patents. The StrongARM was significantly faster than the x86 line
(for integer code) when it was introduced, but it hadn't gotten any
faster in five years or so. Perhaps if Digital was still around, we'd
have 2GHz StrongARMs now.

David LeBlanc

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May 20, 2002, 9:24:26 PM5/20/02
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News to me that Intel crushed Digital with their patents... and BTW, ARM is
an english production (http://www.arm.com/) that Digital was a 2nd source
for. Did Digital make some important enhancements to the ARM architecture? I
vaguely recall some fab improvements they where given credit for...

IMO Digital fell due to bad management (more like stupid, incompetent),
brain-dead marketing, greed and de-emphasis of and inabilty to apply R&D to
the marketplace.

David LeBlanc
Seattle, WA USA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-l...@python.org
> [mailto:python-l...@python.org]On Behalf Of Kragen Sitaker
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 17:57
> To: pytho...@python.org
> Subject: Re: Zaurus and Python, a good combination
>
>

> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Kragen Sitaker

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May 21, 2002, 10:19:37 AM5/21/02
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"David LeBlanc" <whi...@oz.net> writes:
> News to me that Intel crushed Digital with their patents... and BTW, ARM is
> an english production (http://www.arm.com/) that Digital was a 2nd source
> for. Did Digital make some important enhancements to the ARM architecture? I
> vaguely recall some fab improvements they where given credit for...

ARM licenses their designs far and wide; the last time I looked,
several dozen licensees were listed on their web site. Digital was
more like a 30th source than a second one. But most of the licensees
incorporate the ARM core into low-speed, very-low-power
microcontrollers; the Digital StrongARM was almost alone in trying to
compete on speed with desktop CPUs. And that is why the StrongARM is
still the chip of choice for things like the Zaurus, although it is
certainly not without competition from (among others) low-power MIPS
designs and the SH family.

> IMO Digital fell due to bad management (more like stupid, incompetent),
> brain-dead marketing, greed and de-emphasis of and inabilty to apply R&D to
> the marketplace.

These may all be true. I was talking about something more specific:
after an exchange of patent lawsuits lasting a year or two, Intel and
Digital settled. Part of the settlement was that Digital's fabs and
StrongARM line went to Intel.

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