[LSJ] Bombs and Ghouls
Ben Peal
1) When used for a strike, does a Bomb burn as the strike is declared
or during strike resolution?
2) Can multiple Ghoul Retainers "share" a Bomb during the same round
of combat? What happens?
3) If a Ghoul Retainer uses a Bomb for damage, does the Bomb burn at
the end of combat, even though it was not used for a strike by a
minion?
4) May ammo cards be played on a gun being used by a Ghoul Retainer?
5) If the answer to 4) is "yes", does the ammo card's effect apply to
damage inflicted by other Ghoul Retainers "sharing" the gun in the
same round?
6) May Temptation counters be burned to control a minion during combat?
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
LSJ
>
> Some questions...
>
> 1) When used for a strike, does a Bomb burn as the strike is declared
> or during strike resolution?
When "used" - during strike reolution.
> 2) Can multiple Ghoul Retainers "share" a Bomb during the same round
> of combat? What happens?
Yes. It burns during strike resolution.
> 3) If a Ghoul Retainer uses a Bomb for damage, does the Bomb burn at
> the end of combat, even though it was not used for a strike by a
> minion?
Yes. The clarification of card text needs further clarifying, I guess.
> 4) May ammo cards be played on a gun being used by a Ghoul Retainer?
No.
> 5) If the answer to 4) is "yes", does the ammo card's effect apply to
> damage inflicted by other Ghoul Retainers "sharing" the gun in the
> same round?
>
> 6) May Temptation counters be burned to control a minion during combat?
Yes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
hamdamcwa
> Ben Peal wrote:
> >
> > Some questions...
> >
> > 1) When used for a strike, does a Bomb burn as the strike is declared
> > or during strike resolution?
>
> When "used" - during strike reolution.
>
> > 2) Can multiple Ghoul Retainers "share" a Bomb during the same round
> > of combat? What happens?
>
> Yes. It burns during strike resolution.
Am I reading 2) right?
Bear Paw has 4 Ghoul retainers (a popular guy!) and a bomb. He uses
his hands to strike. Then Ghoul Retainer 1 uses a bomb to strike for
5R, as does GR2, GR3, and GR4 doing 20R damage??!!! Enviromental too!
Owch.
If so, is it only Bear Paw who takes the damage at close?
I'm thinking Flesh of Marble here...
DH
LSJ
Bear Paw and his opponent - range doesn't matter. Both take 20R damage,
all environemental.
> I'm thinking Flesh of Marble here...
Better be thinking pool gain. The set-up cost you 14 pool, 5 transfers, and 5
actions (not counting the method of getting into combat); and repeating the
trick costs another action and another pool. :-)
Shaun McIsaac
>
> Yes.
Does the combat/action/block etc end immediately?
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > 6) May Temptation counters be burned to control a minion during combat?
>
> Yes.
Am I correct in assuming that this may be done at any time during combat,
and that combat would immediately end?
Tetragrammaton
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3BB32F44...@white-wolf.com...
Scott, a Charisma and a Black Cat lower that amount at 9
(none for a bomb, 4 for each GR, 5 for Black Cat...), which makes the combo
pretty powerful.
It's a pretty absurd logic that a single weapon can be used by different
retainers.
*Here* i would suggest an errata for GR:
"GR can use a weapon the controlling vampire or any of is or her retainer
is not using during the current round of combat"....or something like that..
Opinion ?
Emiliano, Prince of Rome
> --
jeroen rombouts
> > of combat? What happens?
>
> Yes. It burns during strike resolution.
>
damage on top of the damage the minion does?
ouch
Jeroen
LSJ
Black Cat can't play Flesh of Marble.
So for your 9 pool, 5 transfers, 1 master phase action, 5 actions, 6 library
cards, and some way to enter combat (typically another card and another action
for Black Cat), *and* torporizing the whole lot on your side, you get a
"pretty powerful" effect. Yep.
> It's a pretty absurd logic that a single weapon can be used by different
> retainers.
> *Here* i would suggest an errata for GR:
It's pretty clear card text. The logic of following card text is not absurd.
[TOM 21-MAY-1995] - that's a six-year-old ruling that hasn't seen any
tournament abuse, AFAIK. Errata is not warranted.
LSJ
If the two combatants share the same controller, yes.
LSJ
Yes.
Pat Ricochet
> Scott, a Charisma and a Black Cat lower that amount at 9
> (none for a bomb, 4 for each GR, 5 for Black Cat...), which makes the combo
> pretty powerful.
Name: Charisma
[FN]
Cardtype: Master
Unique master.
Put this card on a ready vampire. This vampire's RECRUIT ALLY actions cost 1
less blood or pool (but never less than 0 blood or pool).
And I'd hardly call a Regina/Black Cat deck "pretty powerful." I'd call
it "too many moving parts."
Also, the cost in actions is MUCH more than the cost in pool.
Especially under NRA. Especially since it only torps one vampire (Watch out
for S:CE, too).
This combo falls under the category of "cute" or "pipe dream," I'd say.
=)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
Noal McDonald
>> his hands to strike. Then Ghoul Retainer 1 uses a bomb to strike
for
>> 5R, as does GR2, GR3, and GR4 doing 20R damage??!!! Enviromental
too!
>>
>
> Better be thinking pool gain. The set-up cost you 14 pool, 5 transfers, and 5
> actions (not counting the method of getting into combat); and repeating the
> trick costs another action and another pool. :-)
It's the Regina and Black Cat show!!!
Regina with Charisma can equip the Ghoul Retainers for free and Black
Cat can get the Grenades for free. I'd think strongly about using
Freak Drive for Regina and Pier 13/Rave or Heidelburg for Black Cat.
Give Regina Ex Nilho and away she goes...
Regards,
Noal
hamdamcwa
> hamdamcwa wrote:
> >
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3BB301EC...@white-wolf.com>...
> > > Ben Peal wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Some questions...
> > > >
> > > > 1) When used for a strike, does a Bomb burn as the strike is declared
> > > > or during strike resolution?
> > >
> > > When "used" - during strike reolution.
> > >
> > > > 2) Can multiple Ghoul Retainers "share" a Bomb during the same round
> > > > of combat? What happens?
> > >
> > > Yes. It burns during strike resolution.
> >
> > Am I reading 2) right?
> >
> > Bear Paw has 4 Ghoul retainers (a popular guy!) and a bomb. He uses
> > his hands to strike. Then Ghoul Retainer 1 uses a bomb to strike for
> > 5R, as does GR2, GR3, and GR4 doing 20R damage??!!! Enviromental too!
> >
> > Owch.
> >
> > If so, is it only Bear Paw who takes the damage at close?
>
> Bear Paw and his opponent - range doesn't matter. Both take 20R damage,
> all environemental.
>
> > I'm thinking Flesh of Marble here...
>
> Better be thinking pool gain. The set-up cost you 14 pool, 5 transfers, and 5
> actions (not counting the method of getting into combat); and repeating the
> trick costs another action and another pool. :-)
OK, assume I use someone like Ankler Hotep (spelling not a strong
point here...), or maybe Zachary with Charisma. Use the Summoning if
need be to get the retainer into your hand (since the superior DOESN'T
allow you to pop up a retianer straight away - damn!) Freak Drive and
recruit.
Or just recruit and Freak Drive. And get another vampire to also
recruit and use the Heidelburg castle.
Enter combat (a la rush etc), disguised weapon, (Bomb), Flesh of
Marble, punch for one. Bomb goes to the Retainers. Any agg damage gets
Skin of Nighted. Make the punch for one aggraveated.
Pool gain? Simply Minion Tap and have a prince on hand with some 5ths.
Yes, a bit tricky, but I like a challenge!
Screwed against S:CE. Dog pack too? ;)
DH
Chris Berger
>
> OK, assume I use someone like Ankler Hotep (spelling not a strong
> point here...), or maybe Zachary with Charisma. Use the Summoning if
> need be to get the retainer into your hand (since the superior DOESN'T
> allow you to pop up a retianer straight away - damn!) Freak Drive and
> recruit.
>
lowers the cost of an ally. Ghoul Retainer, last I checked, was a
retainer.
You could just go ahead and pay full price for them all and Heidelburg
them over, but GOOD LORD that's a lot of pool. Each additional
card+action+2 pool nets you an extra 5 damage, with each use of the
damage eating up at least 3 cards (Bomb + Flesh of Marble + get into
combat) and 1 pool.
Assuming you want to do 15 damage (what's the point in more?), it'll
cost you a one time cost of 8 pool (Heidelberg + 3 ghouls), 4 cards, 3
actions, and 1 master phase (ignoring the cost of the extra vampires
you'll need). Each time doing it will cost 2 actions (Bomb + rush), 3
cards, and 1 blood (assuming that Black Cat gets the Bomb and you
Heidelberg it over). If you use it on 5 vampires, assuming no dodges,
it costs 8 pool, 19 cards, 5 blood, 13 actions, and a master phase.
If you want to do 15 damage with superior Potence, it'll cost you 9
cards, 1 blood, and 1 action each time (rush, Torn Signpost, 5
Increased Strength, Undead Strength, and FoM or SoS or whatever to
prevent opponent's damage). To do it to 5 vampires costs 45 cards, 5
blood, and 5 actions.
It only gets worse if you use Lambach, or a Gangrel with Ritual
Challenge or Gangrel Revel. Is using fewer cards really worth that
many actions and pool? The only way to reduce pool cost is to take
all of the recruit actions with Regina (I believe), and she dosen't
have most of the other disciplines that would make things easier. You
can cut down on the number actions using obf or chi, but still... How
many times do you really *need* to do that much damage. Once you do
more than 2 above the vamp's capacity, they're either gonna prevent it
all or go to torpor. The efficiency of the Ghoul method only gets
worse with less Ghouls, and 15 damage seems to be the limit of
effective damage. You could do a million damage and it wouldn't be
any different from doing a hundred, which would be only marginally
different from doing 15.
Chris Berger
>
> It only gets worse if you use Lambach...
Just in case you weren't aware of the special terminology I was using,
Lambach, as used in the above statement, actually means "Lasverinus".
This was not, of course, a mistake, but simply ignorance that many
people might not be aware of my special terminology. For future
reference, "Bear Paw" is sometimes translated as "Badger", and
"Emerson Bridges" or "that Toreador with PRE" are sometimes used in
place of "Gideon Fontaine", despite the fact that he is neither a
Toreador, nor the Prince of Washington (or of Madison County, for that
matter).
Max
> > 4) May ammo cards be played on a gun being used by a Ghoul Retainer?
>
> No.
Why not?
The Lasombra
news:549ed483.01100...@posting.google.com...
Card Text of the Ammo cards.
Dragon's Breath Rounds - "Minion inflicts"
Glaser Rounds - "Minion inflicts"
Manstopper Rounds - "The minion inflicts"
Ghoul Retainers are not minions.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
--
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