Stutter-Step Q
Flux
the text on Stutter-Step, it would seem so:
Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on
the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing
innate strike. [LSJ 19970224]
Stutter-Step
Combat
Celerity
Strike: Dodge
<S> Strike: Dodge and inflict strength damage. This damage may be modified
by effects
that modify hand damage. Only usable at close range. Not usable as an
additional strike,
and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
But, OTOH, Stutter-Step is also a dodge, and Dodges are not hand strikes.
I'd think it shouldn't be a hand strike, but then the definition of a Hand
Strike might need some revising for clarification.
Flux
Derek Ray
>Is Stutter-Step (sup) a hand strike? By the definition of hand strike and
>the text on Stutter-Step, it would seem so:
><S> Strike: Dodge and inflict strength damage. This damage may be modified
>by effects
>that modify hand damage. Only usable at close range. Not usable as an
>additional strike,
>and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
>
>But, OTOH, Stutter-Step is also a dodge, and Dodges are not hand strikes.
>I'd think it shouldn't be a hand strike, but then the definition of a Hand
>Strike might need some revising for clarification.
by literal card text reading, it's a Strike: Dodge that sets up an
environmental damage effect of (strength) damage. So it's not a hand
strike, although your Torn Signpost can increase the effect.
-- Derek
LSJ
The strike is not a hand strike, correct.
But the damage effect isn't environmental - it comes from a strike.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Walter Denny
However, what is the advantage of this card. It seems a dodge, additional
strike does the same thing and you can use anyold strike you want. Well I
guess it costs one less blood.
"Flux" <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:3b27...@212.18.160.197...
Walter Denny
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3B27E60C...@white-wolf.com...
Derek Ray
wrote:
>Derek Ray wrote:
>>
>> ><S> Strike: Dodge and inflict strength damage. This damage may be modified
>> >by effects
>> >that modify hand damage. Only usable at close range. Not usable as an
>> >additional strike,
>> >and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
>>
>> by literal card text reading, it's a Strike: Dodge that sets up an
>> environmental damage effect of (strength) damage. So it's not a hand
>> strike, although your Torn Signpost can increase the effect.
>
>The strike is not a hand strike, correct.
>But the damage effect isn't environmental - it comes from a strike.
Oh, is -that- what "inflict strength damage" means? =/
OK. So it's a strike that is a Dodge and strength damage, all in one,
meaning you can Skin of Steel it and other "strike" cards.
What happens if you use Scorpion Sting against it as a reacting
minion? Does the whole strike blow up, or does just the Dodge part
fail? I'd say that just the Dodge half fizzles, since Scorpion
Sting's wording isn't "This minion may not play Dodge as a strike",
the way Dog Pack does -- it just says "This strike may not be
dodged"... meaning that any Dodge played has no effect.
-- Derek
Derek Ray
<wde...@telocity.com> wrote:
>However, what is the advantage of this card. It seems a dodge, additional
>strike does the same thing and you can use anyold strike you want. Well I
>guess it costs one less blood.
Yep. For the one blood, Acrobatics provides you with a separate
additional strike, which gets around someone playing plain old Dodge -
whereas this strike WON'T, but it's free and stacks with things like
Torn Signpost, Depravity, and any innate strength bonuses on the
minion.
-- Derek
LSJ
>
> Then is it is the vamp effected by King of mountain?
The damage is prevented at inferior, yes.
As stated above (but you've quoted below for some reason), the
strike is not a hand strike.
LSJ
Correct. It means that the dodge does not cancel the effects of
the Scorpion Sting.
Walter Denny
> > Then is it is the vamp effected by King of mountain?
>
> The damage is prevented at inferior, yes.
> As stated above (but you've quoted below for some reason), the
> strike is not a hand strike.
>
the superior form of King of the Mountain affect a person who strikes with
stutter-step.
LSJ
No, for exactly that reason (card text).
jeroen rombouts
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iqrfit421ql8medro...@4ax.com...
Acrobatics.
salem christ
Stutter-Step
Combat
Celerity
Strike: Dodge
modified
by effects
that modify hand damage. Only usable at close range. Not usable as an
additional strike,
and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
by "effects that modify hand damage", i assume things like wolf claws
and innate agg hand damage (such as, say...hmm...Thetmes) WILL work
with this?
salem.
Walter Denny
> AND it can be followed up by another additional strike card, not so for
> Acrobatics.
>
Walter
Flux
"salem christ" <salem_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:a36647e2.01061...@posting.google.com...
> by "effects that modify hand damage", i assume things like wolf claws
> and innate agg hand damage (such as, say...hmm...Thetmes) WILL work
> with this?
Yes. In fact, that's the best use for this card - dodge the opposing
minion's strike and poke his eye out so he won't have the chance to play
additional strikes, seems custom made for !Gangrel. Kinda like an improved
First Strike.
Flux
Tom, Mad&Co
> >
> AND it can be followed up by another additional strike card, not so for
> Acrobatics.
No, by card text. If you play Stutter Step at superior you cannot play
further additional strikes.
The only additional strike you should play with a superior Sttuter Step is
Quickness.
Tom, Mad&Co
Emmit Svenson
> what is the advantage of this card.
The damage hits before your opponent's additional strikes do, so it
could effectively trump cards like Blur, especially combined with the
creamy new Assamite hand damage modifiers.
Question: can superior Quickness be used to gain an additional strike
after Stutter-Step? I would think not, but it's worth asking.
Derek Ray
Traditionally for the !Gangrel, this trick has meant spending two
blood - Acrobatics and Claws. Gets really expensive after awhile. =)
Now it's much more usable to Ambush/Lost in Crowds/Stutter-Step, and
see if they Dodge as well before playing your own Claws - *zero* blood
lost on a failed combat. =)
-- Derek
Derek Ray
wrote:
No, by card text. "This vampire cannot use any additional strikes
this round." =) Any means any. =)
-- Derek
Halcyan 2
>>Quickness.
>
>No, by card text. "This vampire cannot use any additional strikes
>this round." =) Any means any. =)
Well couldn't you *play* any additional strike cards you want (for cycling
purposes). You just can't *use* any of the additional strikes?
Halcyan 2
Derek Ray
If I knew what "use" meant, I could answer that a lot more easily.
(Bill Clinton may never leave us) But there are two literal readings:
one would be "you may gain additional strikes, but you may not use
them." OK. Makes sense.
the other would imply that using a card that gained you additional
strikes was "using an additional strike card."
reaching back a bit, Hidden Lurker says "This minion may not strike",
but I know that HL doesn't prevent you from gaining additional
strikes. On that precedent, I'll go ahead and reverse my opinion here
and say that yeah, you could PLAY the Blur or whatever, but nothing
would happen.
-- Derek
LSJ
Correct.
LSJ
No.
Just as you cannot burn extra PA cards (and fail to "use" the votes) and
cannot play extra +1 intercept and fail to use the intercept and cannot
play Bonding after Conditioning and fail to use the +1 bleed part of
Bonding.
LSJ
No, correct.
jeroen rombouts
> Just as you cannot burn extra PA cards (and fail to "use" the votes) and
> cannot play extra +1 intercept and fail to use the intercept and cannot
> play Bonding after Conditioning and fail to use the +1 bleed part of
> Bonding.
>
LSJ
It isn't, as I stated (and you quoted).
Gomi no Sensei
He just said it _wasn't_ possible.
gomi
--
Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby
Flux
> > >Is Stutter-Step (sup) a hand strike? By the definition of hand strike
and
> > >the text on Stutter-Step, it would seem so:
> >
> > ><S> Strike: Dodge and inflict strength damage. This damage may be
modified
> > >by effects
> > >that modify hand damage. Only usable at close range. Not usable as an
> > >additional strike,
> > >and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
> The strike is not a hand strike, correct.
> But the damage effect isn't environmental - it comes from a strike.
Sorry to come back to this, but I'd like a more detailed explanation.
Why is it not a hand strike, when it's clearly strength-based and
non-ranged, hence conforming to the ruling on what a hand strike is?
Is it because it's actually a Dodge (and a strike cannot be a Hand Strike
_and_ a Dodge - while we're at it, why not?)? Should we consider the Dodge
text to take precedence over the Hand Strike definition, or is it only
because it's written first?
Would this be a hand strike then:
Strike: inflict strength damage, and Dodge the opposing minion's strike.
(...)
Or would we need this:
Strike: make a hand strike. Cancel opposing minion's strike's effects on
this minion.
Of course, then it wouldn't be a Dodge (Scorpion Sting would have no effect,
and First Strike would still hit).
Flux
LSJ
[non-attributed quote snipped]
> Sorry to come back to this, but I'd like a more detailed explanation.
> Why is it not a hand strike, when it's clearly strength-based and
> non-ranged, hence conforming to the ruling on what a hand strike is?
Because it's a dodge.
> Is it because it's actually a Dodge (and a strike cannot be a Hand Strike
> _and_ a Dodge - while we're at it, why not?)? Should we consider the Dodge
> text to take precedence over the Hand Strike definition, or is it only
> because it's written first?
> Would this be a hand strike then:
>
> Strike: inflict strength damage, and Dodge the opposing minion's strike.
> (...)
>
> Or would we need this:
>
> Strike: make a hand strike. Cancel opposing minion's strike's effects on
> this minion.
The latter.
> Of course, then it wouldn't be a Dodge (Scorpion Sting would have no effect,
> and First Strike would still hit).
Right.
David Pontes
> > Sorry to come back to this, but I'd like a more detailed explanation.
> > Why is it not a hand strike, when it's clearly strength-based and
> > non-ranged, hence conforming to the ruling on what a hand strike is?
>
> Because it's a dodge.
>
But it also conforms with the current definition of hand strikes, right?
Do you think it's necessary to change the definition of hand strikes?
David Pontes
LSJ
>
> vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote
> > Flux wrote:
> > > Sorry to come back to this, but I'd like a more detailed explanation.
> > > Why is it not a hand strike, when it's clearly strength-based and
> > > non-ranged, hence conforming to the ruling on what a hand strike is?
> >
> > Because it's a dodge.
> >
>
> But it also conforms with the current definition of hand strikes, right?
Yes.
> Do you think it's necessary to change the definition of hand strikes?
Yes - the message you quote just did.