Song: Holiday Cheer (lil instyfilk)
Jacob Sommer
The seasons have been passing and it's time to buy some stuff
We're going to the mall to shop and hope we buy enough
For all our friends and neighbors and our relatives so gruff
For this RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa year.
We pull into the parking lot and try to find a space
but the parking is in shambles near the floating Jesus face
We ditch the car a mile away and trudge to join the race
For this RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa year.
Into the crowded mall we go, at last we are inside
We'll get into the stores that still have sales brochures to guide
And get some gifts we know my seventh cousin hasn't tried
For this RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa year.
The things that are on sale have disappeared without a trace
Just to move another storefront needs my elbows and some mace
We'll find that outside exit with some prayer and some grace
For this RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa year.
It's getting even crowdeder inside this little mall
Which only has some seven million square feet left to sprawl
I cannot even reach my phone or 9-1-1 I'd call
For this RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa year.
They're stacking up the customers like cordwood by the load
And still they bring in passersby out from the local road
I think that if more people come this mall will soon explode
BOOOOM!
<slowly and shakily>
On this RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa year!
Jacob Sommer
December 11, 2000
(No, I *don't* know where this one came from...)
Martin Julian DeMello
> Jacob Sommer
> December 11, 2000
> (No, I *don't* know where this one came from...)
I could hazard a guess :)
Nice one.
--
Martin DeMello
Jacob Sommer
>
> Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Jacob Sommer
> > December 11, 2000
> > (No, I *don't* know where this one came from...)
>
> I could hazard a guess :)
>
> Nice one.
Thanks.
Ah well, I better tell Bill I'm sorry for not using Festivus...
but RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa just fit the song so much better :)
Jacob
gi...@nospam.pobox.com
> Ah well, I better tell Bill I'm sorry for not using Festivus...
> but RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa just fit the song so much better :)
Pity you couldn't have squeezed Diwali in there somewhere too. :)
--Rachel,
wondering if this was inspired in part by how crowded the Israel
Bookshop was on Sunday... (I *really* didn't expect that, especially
nearly 2 weeks *before* Hanukkah!)
--
R. S. Silverman
http://www.gingicat.org
"It isn't my fault that I'm supposed to be living in a musical and got
stuck in a dramatic production." --Robert Cooke, on rec.music.filk
Robin Holly
As if we needed anything to make shopping by catalog and online more
attractive!
Cute- but you missed the verse about the obnoxious Christmas Musak. Or
perhaps you felt that ground was sufficiently covered in other songs!
Robin
--
robin at massfilc dot org
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Jacob Sommer
>
> In article <3A35110A...@earthlink.net>,
> Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Words and Music, Jacob Sommer
>
> As if we needed anything to make shopping by catalog and online more
> attractive!
>
> Cute- but you missed the verse about the obnoxious Christmas Musak. Or
> perhaps you felt that ground was sufficiently covered in other songs!
<g>
Actually, throughout most of the song it's meant to talk about the
polyglot; so with the exception of Ramadaan (which is solemn) and
the Jesus face (which is Christian) it worked pretty well for me.
Five big religious observances, one time of year. Yoik!
Jacob
I'll worry about Pass-Easter-over later :)
Mark A. Mandel
: Cute- but you missed the verse about the obnoxious Christmas Musak. Or
: perhaps you felt that ground was sufficiently covered in other songs!
Xcess Carols
Mark A. Mandel
ttto "Simple Gifts"
'Tis a cinch to be grouchy, 'tis a cinch to be glum,
When the Christmas carols come and come and come.
From the first day of November to the turning of the year,
Yuletide music is all you hear.
When you are shopping at the mall,
Or waiting on hold with a telephone call,
The tintinnabulation of the "Carol of the Bells", bells, bells, bells,
bells, bells, bells,
Can make you wish for a vacation in Hell.
-- Mark
--
To reply by email, remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.
Brenda Daverin
100...@world.std.com>:
>On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Jacob Sommer wrote:
>> Ah well, I better tell Bill I'm sorry for not using Festivus...
>> but RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa just fit the song so much better :)
>
>Pity you couldn't have squeezed Diwali in there somewhere too. :)
Nitpick: Isn't Diwali closer to Halloween/Samhain? I know it overlapped
that day last year.
--
Brenda Daverin
bdav...@best.com
Lee Gold
>
> Nitpick: Isn't Diwali closer to Halloween/Samhain? I know it overlapped
> that day last year.
Yes. A webpage describes it as "the 15th day of the dark fortnight
of the Hindu month of Ashwin (Aasho) (October / November)" so it
sounds like the dark of the first winter month, an appropriate time
for a festival of lights.
--Lee Gold
Maureen O'Brien
vary according to hemisphere and latitude. A lot of holidays which
are at different times according to the calendar really are at similar
times according to the growing cycle.
The consequences for religions can be interesting. Lammas (The Feast of
the Assumption) is still a holy day of obligation but not a big festival
to most US Catholics. And why should it be? In the US, it doesn't really
mark any particularly important day or season (except maybe 'holiday
in month otherwise without holiday'. Now, this isn't a big deal to
Catholicism, really -- it just means that certain saints' days tend to
be more popular in certain parts of the world than others.
But if I were a pagan celebrating Lugnasadh (and I hope I'd be calling
it Lugnasadh, 'cause calling it Lammas is rather odd in pagan context),
I'd reschedule it to September, myself. Makes more sense as a harvest
festival, and is more in touch with the land one is in rather than the
schedule thousands of miles away. Ditto for stuff like May Day/Beltain,
which is about a month late in the US, IMHO. (Though all us kids
crowning Mary at the school were _just as glad_ that the day of the
procession was a good month or two into Spring.) And Canada ought to be
a different kettle of fish altogether than the US or Europe -- although
really, some US regions are different enough in clime that each part of
the US could be scheduled differently.... Yeah, this could get
wonderfully complex! Maybe the name could be changed from cross-quarter
days to cross-eighth days.... <g>
I'm a rabble-rouser at heart, and with the Millennium struggle
nearly decided, this would make a good quixotic cause to take up and
argue with total strangers at cons. Anybody else in? <g>
Maureen, somewhat regretful that the solstices don't differ.
Bruce Adelsohn
Yep. I live in a neighborhood with a large fraction of Indian/Pakistani
folk, and Diwali is just too far from Festiva to be considered as an
overlap.
And, totally apropos of naught, Ben and Jerry missed the flavor of the
day. It's a good flavor, but cold cinnamon and hot cinnamon just have
different feelings...
--
- mka Bruce Adelsohn - ska Stefan Davidson -
bru...@cybernex.net | http://www.rishathra.com/Bruce
All heroes have flaws. | I'm no hero.
May you live as long as you wish, and love as long as you live!
lesli...@my-deja.com
mob...@dnaco.net wrote:
> The interesting bit is that, like harvest time, the darkness thing
does
> vary according to hemisphere and latitude.
As I recall, Lughnasad was specifically the grain harvest --
considering when grains were planted in ancient Britain. Imbolc is the
one I snicker about; it was originally the northern European fumigation
ceremony! Yep, coldest part of winter was a good time to light lots of
fires, get everything out of the house, set a big chunk of sulphur on a
charcoal burner under the middle of the ceiling and slam the doors and
shutters. Also a good time to wash everything washable and dry it in
front of the fires, burn the old mattress and pillow stuffing and
replace with new stuff, wash oneself in water full of flea-bane, and
dance between the roaring bonfires until dry. Between the washing, the
flea-bane and the sulphur smoke, the bugs could be kept down to bearable
proportions for another year. Needless to add, in the post-DDT era,
this festival has lost a bit of its original meaning!
--Leslie <;)))><
gi...@nospam.pobox.com
On looking it up, you're correct. I'd just remembered that it was also
called "Festival of Lights" which is also a name for Hanukkah.
lesli...@my-deja.com
gi...@nospam.pobox.com wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2000, Brenda Daverin wrote:
> > gi...@nospam.pobox.com wrote in <Pine.SGI.4.21.0012121118531.16338-
> > 100...@world.std.com>:
> > >On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Jacob Sommer wrote:
> > >> Ah well, I better tell Bill I'm sorry for not using Festivus...
> > >> but RamaHanuSolstiChristmaKwanzaa just fit the song so much
better :)
> > >Pity you couldn't have squeezed Diwali in there somewhere too. :)
> >
> > Nitpick: Isn't Diwali closer to Halloween/Samhain? I know it
overlapped
> > that day last year.
Technically, they all began as celebrations of the winter solstice.
Extra religious/historical connotations got added later. I don't
recall any place that the last-harvest festival got linked to the winter
solstice; all harvests were usually gathered in by then.
--Leslie <;)))><
> On looking it up, you're correct. I'd just remembered that it was
also
> called "Festival of Lights" which is also a name for Hanukkah.
>
> --
> R. S. Silverman
> http://www.gingicat.org
> "It isn't my fault that I'm supposed to be living in a musical and got
> stuck in a dramatic production." --Robert Cooke, on rec.music.filk
>
>
Martin Julian DeMello
> Technically, they all began as celebrations of the winter solstice.
> Extra religious/historical connotations got added later. I don't
> recall any place that the last-harvest festival got linked to the winter
> solstice; all harvests were usually gathered in by then.
Diwali did not - I asked a Hindu friend, and Diwali celebrates Rama's trturn
from exile; the 'festival of lights' is because the people lit lights to
welcome him back. There is a separate Solstice festival; Hinduism was
unlikely to have coopted a preexisting one and changed its name, since it'd
be unthreatened by the fact of its celebration.
--
Martin DeMello
Jacob Sommer
> Technically, they all began as celebrations of the winter solstice.
> Extra religious/historical connotations got added later. I don't
> recall any place that the last-harvest festival got linked to the winter
> solstice; all harvests were usually gathered in by then.
Not Hanukah. There's no record of other Jewish religious observances
then aside from the standard Shabbat and Rosh Chodesh (Head of the
Month) ones. Judaism doesn't celebrate rain, just expects it :)
(Well, all they got during those times in that location was rain; and
being a fair bit close to the equator there's no holy days for the
longest and shortest days)
Jacob
lesli...@my-deja.com
Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Not Hanukah. There's no record of other Jewish religious observances
> then aside from the standard Shabbat and Rosh Chodesh (Head of the
> Month) ones. Judaism doesn't celebrate rain, just expects it :)
>
> (Well, all they got during those times in that location was rain; and
> being a fair bit close to the equator there's no holy days for the
> longest and shortest days)
>
> Jacob
Odd. Israel is still a good way north of the equator, and the
shortest-day-of-the-year would still be noticeable. The fact that
Hannukah is celebrated specifically as a "Feast of Lights" suggested
something of a winter solstice observance. Hmmm, the fact that there
are no records (at least, none dug up yet!) doesn't necessarily prove
that there was no previous solstice celebration. If it was an old folk
custom of pre-literate folk, there probably wouldn't be much written
about it.
--Leslie <;)))><
Lee Gold
Mediterranean countries didn't nark the winter solstice per se
but the new moon nights nearest the winter solstice. That's why
Saturnalia (Italy) started on the 25th day of the winter solstice month,
Hanukah starts on the 25th day of the winter solstice month, and
Mithras's birthday started on the 25th day of the wintr solstice month.
The solar day's shortest length was less important than the period of
the longest darkest nights.
The countries that zeroed in on the solstice are in areas where
clouds made the winter moon less noticeable and where the difference
between summer and winter days was a lot more noticeable -- that
is, northern countries like Germany and Norway.
--Lee
Lee Gold
Mediterranean countries didn't nark the winter solstice per se
lesli...@my-deja.com
Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> lesli...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Mediterranean countries didn't nark the winter solstice per se
> but the new moon nights nearest the winter solstice. That's why
> Saturnalia (Italy) started on the 25th day of the winter solstice
month,
> Hanukah starts on the 25th day of the winter solstice month, and
> Mithras's birthday started on the 25th day of the wintr solstice
month.
> The solar day's shortest length was less important than the period of
> the longest darkest nights.
>
> The countries that zeroed in on the solstice are in areas where
> clouds made the winter moon less noticeable and where the difference
> between summer and winter days was a lot more noticeable -- that
> is, northern countries like Germany and Norway.
>
> --Lee
>
Makes sense -- so long as we can trust the calendar. Remember that
the calendar was revised by some Pope or other (brain fart), whereupon a
lot of dates from the old Julian calendar took a lurch to the left.
What now is the 25th of December (which translates from the Latin as
"Tenth Month"!) could have fallen then on what's now the 21st. Help!
Is there a calendar-historian in the house?
Lori Coulson
: >
: Makes sense -- so long as we can trust the calendar. Remember that
: the calendar was revised by some Pope or other (brain fart), whereupon a
: lot of dates from the old Julian calendar took a lurch to the left.
: What now is the 25th of December (which translates from the Latin as
: "Tenth Month"!) could have fallen then on what's now the 21st. Help!
: Is there a calendar-historian in the house?
: --Leslie <;)))><
Pope Gregory (damn if I can remember which number he was) removed 10 days
from the calendar. You'll like this one, Leslie--the people in some
countries rioted, they chanted: "Give us back our 10 days..."
Lori Coulson
--
*****************************************************
...Or do you still wait for me, Dream Giver...
Just around the riverbend? Pocahontas
*****************************************************
Arthur Levesque
LF>Remember that the calendar was revised by some Pope or other (brain
LF>fart), whereupon a lot of dates from the old Julian calendar took a
LF>lurch to the left.
Pope Gregory (thus the "Gregorian calendar" which we now use in the
place of the Julian calendar).
LF>What now is the 25th of December (which translates from the Latin as
LF>"Tenth Month"!) could have fallen then on what's now the 21st.
"September", "October", and "November" are also seventh, eighth, and
ninth, respectively; they all got pushed back by the addition of July and
August (named after Julius and Augustus Caesar).
Now, someone just has to set all this trivia to "Calendar Girl"...
--
/\ Arthur M Levesque 2A4W <*> b...@boog.orgy =/\= http://boog.org __
\B\ack King of the Potato People <fnord> "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!" (oO)
\S\lash Member of a vast right-wing conspiracy (-O-) Urban Spaceman /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable "I hate rainbows!"-EC
Lee Gold
>
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > Mediterranean countries didn't nark the winter solstice per se
> > but the new moon nights nearest the winter solstice.
> Makes sense -- so long as we can trust the calendar. Remember that
> the calendar was revised by some Pope or other (brain fart), whereupon a
> lot of dates from the old Julian calendar took a lurch to the left.
> What now is the 25th of December (which translates from the Latin as
> "Tenth Month"!) could have fallen then on what's now the 21st. Help!
> Is there a calendar-historian in the house?
Gregor revised the Julian calendar because centuries of having a Leap Day in
century years not divisible by 400 had caused the dates to drift off. The
result is that many webpages claim Isaac Newton was born January 4th, when he
was actually born on December 25th.
Of course, things were much worse in Rome, where leap years only occurred when
the Senate remembered to do it, and so during times of civil unrest didn't
occur. And a Roman leap year (before Julius Caesar went from lunation months of
29-30 days to months of 28-31 days) meant an extra lunation, so by the time
Julius was consul, the calendar was months off where it should have been.
--Lee, who's always been interested in calendars
Lee Gold
>
> Leslie Fish (lesli...@my-deja.com) wrote:
> LF>Remember that the calendar was revised by some Pope or other (brain
> LF>fart), whereupon a lot of dates from the old Julian calendar took a
> LF>lurch to the left.
>
> Pope Gregory (thus the "Gregorian calendar" which we now use in the
> place of the Julian calendar).
>
> LF>What now is the 25th of December (which translates from the Latin as
> LF>"Tenth Month"!) could have fallen then on what's now the 21st.
No. It was originally a week-long holiday, like Hanukah, spanning the
the dark of the moon.
>
> "September", "October", and "November" are also seventh, eighth, and
> ninth, respectively; they all got pushed back by the addition of July and
> August (named after Julius and Augustus Caesar).
They weren't added, just renamed versions of Quintilis and Sextilis,
already there in the calendar.
--Lee
Rafe Culpin
wrote:
> Pope Gregory (damn if I can remember which number he was) removed 10
> days
> from the calendar. You'll like this one, Leslie--the people in some
> countries rioted, they chanted: "Give us back our 10 days..."
The difference had got up to 11 days when the UK changed over. I was
taught in school that some people thought 11 days had been taken from
their lives, and chanted "Give us back our 11 days". This was represented
as being due to them being stupid and ignorant.
A lot later, I saw a different explanation. They had been charged a full
quarter's rent.
Rafe
--
To reply email rafe, at the address filk co uk
The WiGGLe Website for information on filk in the UK is at:
http://www.filk.co.uk/
Mark A. Mandel
: Pope Gregory (thus the "Gregorian calendar" which we now use in the
: LF>What now is the 25th of December (which translates from the Latin as
: ninth, respectively; they all got pushed back by the addition of July and
: August (named after Julius and Augustus Caesar).
Not correct. The Caesars named those months, formerly Quintilis and
Sextilis, after themselves. The calendar used to start in March, on the
Spring Equinox.
-- Mark A. Mandel
Mark A. Mandel
: In article <91ime8$j5u$1...@acme.gcfn.org>, lcou...@gcfn.org (Lori Coulson)
: wrote:
:> Pope Gregory (damn if I can remember which number he was) removed 10 days
:> from the calendar. You'll like this one, Leslie--the people in some
:> countries rioted, they chanted: "Give us back our 10 days..."
: The difference had got up to 11 days when the UK changed over.
Which was in the middle 18th century. George Washington was born on
Feb. 11 Old Style; we (USA) celebrate the date on Feb. 22 New Style. The
change was during his lifetime.
: [...] I was
: taught in school that some people thought 11 days had been taken from
: their lives, and chanted "Give us back our 11 days". This was represented
: as being due to them being stupid and ignorant.
: A lot later, I saw a different explanation. They had been charged a full
: quarter's rent.
Ah HA! Thank you. Now THAT makes a lot of sense.
Rich Brown
Leslie Fish
wasn't it around the winter solstice?
--
Lee Gold
>
> Okay, so just when in that calendar did Hannukah fall? Was it or
> wasn't it around the winter solstice?
Hanukah begins the 25th day of Kislev, the winter solstice month.
Dark of the moon around the winter solstice.
--Lee
mer...@hotmail.com
> The countries that zeroed in on the solstice are in areas where
> clouds made the winter moon less noticeable and where the difference
> between summer and winter days was a lot more noticeable -- that
> is, northern countries like Germany and Norway.
Right, but we have to keep in mind that historically Hannuka is just a
misplaced Sukkot (a fall harvest festival lasting 8 days) which wasn't
celebrated in the year of the Macabee revolt because a) they were
hiding up in the hills and b) they couldn't bring the traditional
offerings to the temple, because it had been defiled.
Hannuka (from Hannukat ha'Bayit meaning dedication of the house) was a
celebration of the recapture and subsequent purification of the temple
in Jerusalem, complete with the offering of sacrifices, as was proper
for a rededication.
The reason Hannuka is eight days long is due to the length of the first
Hannuka, a displaced Sukkot. The miracle of the oil being a later gloss
to explain why eight days were allowed for a military holiday, which
would normally only get one day of celebration, like Purim.
The tie-in to the harvest therefore is correct, but it's an earlier
harvest, Israel would be in a growing season now, according to the
bible, somewhere between the fruit harvest and the barley harvest. The
light motif (leichtmotif? ;)) of the holiday probably comes from the
influence of other cultures. Zoroastrianism comes to mind.
I'll go put on my filker hat now, and put down my mental notes on From
Ezra to the Macabees.
Have a happy holiday and celebrate the most important things;
friendship, family, caring, and making a life together on this planet.
Merav
yaakov_h...@my-deja.com
solstice argument is a perenial I can;t resist.
Briefly:
As Jacob mentioned, we have no record of Chanukah until the events it
describes: e.g., the rebellion against the Hellenes in approximately 130
B.C.E. Unlike Purim, the other holiday celebrated by modern Jews but
not mentioned in the bible, there is actual archeological evidence to
back up the events (as "Growing up Jewish put it: This is the one
holiday that we have evidence for, so we REALLY whoop it up"). The Book
of Macabees, which is not actually included in the Jewish cannon, does
not seem to have any kind of antecedent prior tot he events it describes
(again, in contradistinction to Purim, where there is arguably source
material from elsewhere).
So I start with the notion that there actually is an historical event
here that is being commemorated, and there is no evidence that the
historical event is grafted onto any kind of pre-Jewish pagan practice.
The period in question is well after the Babylonian exile, which is the
period usually given by scholars as when Jewish practice solidified into
its basic monotheistic form, the text of the Bible was redacted into its
modern form, etc.
[Of course customs continued to evolve, with significant impact from
surrounding culture, which brings us to the point raised by Merav.]
In article <91og43$f7d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
mer...@hotmail.com wrote:
> The reason Hannuka is eight days long is due to the length of the
first
> Hannuka, a displaced Sukkot.
Part of the problem with this theory is that Succot is actually seven
days, not eight, but I assume you are counting Shmini Atzeret (itself a
separate holiday, according to the Bible) to make up the eight count.
It is not clear, however, why we have a "displaced Succot." Succot is a
harvest holiday, celebrating the end of the growing season in Israel.
It was not supressed at the time Chanukah came along, so Chanukah
doesn't really manage to be a "Sukkot in disguise."
Nor does Chanukah reference: harvests, lights (other than the miracle
ofd the oil, which I will get back to in a minute), a return of spring,
or any such matter. The holiday which marks the return of spring is Tu
B'shvat, about 6 weeks later, which coincides with the first appearance
of the first crop in Israel following the rainy season (the almond trees
blossom). And calling Tu B'shvat a holiday is a stretch. Its actually
an accounting date. Spirtual import wasn't added until much later.
>The miracle of the oil being a later
gloss
> to explain why eight days were allowed for a military holiday, which
> would normally only get one day of celebration, like Purim.
Leaving aside the miracle, which I will get to in a minute, the simple
explanation is that the basic period of purification is seven days.
Thus, if Chanukah is actually a commemoration of the physical victory
and subsequent purification of the sanctuary, 8 days makes perfect
sense, even withou the miracle of the oil.
> The tie-in to the harvest therefore is correct, but it's an earlier
> harvest, Israel would be in a growing season now, according to the
> bible, somewhere between the fruit harvest and the barley harvest.
Actually, Israel would be (and was) in winter. It is the rainy season.
Even at the time of Chanukah's invention (since I'm willing to admit to
some climactic shift), the growing season *ends* with Succot. That's
why it's a harvest holiday. We say the prayer for rain at Sukkot, have
the Simchat Beit haShouevah (the Temple rite to ensure rain) and that's
it. As mentioned above, the first actual crop is the Almond buds around
February, which is when planting starts so that we can get the wheat
harvest in by Passover in about April, and the barley harvest comes in
for Shavuout in late May, along with the first fruits.
The
> light motif (leichtmotif? ;)) of the holiday probably comes from the
> influence of other cultures. Zoroastrianism comes to mind.
The problem with this theory is that when Chanukah practice is codified,
even in the Mishanic period, the bulk of the Jewish people (and the
important halachic centers) are located in Israel. While dominated in
this period by Pagan powers, these are of Grecco-Roman dominance.
Zoraistranism, while certainly known, would not be dominant in the
surrounding culture until after the collapse of the Bar Kochba revolt in
135 C.E. and the shift in Jewish population/centers of halachic
authority to Persia.
It should also be noted that the light motif, while present, does not
become central to Canukah until the Destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E.
Read the Al Hanissim, which is the additional prayer said on Chanukah.
While not proof absolute, it should be noted that the entire "miracle
of the oil" gets one passing reference in a lengthy description of the
miracle of the military triumph of "the pure over the impure, the few
over the many, the weak over the strong," etc.
The ascendancy of the lights as central to Chanukah comes after the
Destruction. While this arguably supports a Zoaristrian influence, I
would argue that the more logical explanation is that in the absence of
the Temple, the lighting of the Chanukiah remained the only remnant of
Chanukah practice available. Not surprisingly, it assumed prominence
even in the period after the Destruction but before the shift to PErsia
(i.e., the period fo final formulation of the Mishnah).
Finally, I would observe that, as things go, Chanukah is a very minor
holiday. Its prominence has been artificially elevated by its
unfortunate proximity to Christmass, which sometimes ain't all that
proximate. Last year, for example, Chanukah started right after Thanks
giving. For you solstice folks, it usually preceeds the Solstice by a
good two weeks.
Harold
Lee Gold
>
> As Jacob mentioned, we have no record of Chanukah until the events it
> describes: e.g., the rebellion against the Hellenes in approximately 130
> B.C.E. Unlike Purim, the other holiday celebrated by modern Jews but
> not mentioned in the bible,
Nitpick: You mean "not mentioned in the Torah"; Purim is of course
mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Esther.
> there is actual archeological evidence to
> back up the events (as "Growing up Jewish put it: This is the one
> holiday that we have evidence for, so we REALLY whoop it up"). The Book
> of Macabees,
There are four Books of Maccabees (in my Oxford Annotated Bible,
which I bought for reasons of scholarship, not religion)
> which is not actually included in the Jewish cannon, does
canon
> not seem to have any kind of antecedent prior tot he events it describes
> (again, in contradistinction to Purim, where there is arguably source
> material from elsewhere).
According to the Books of Maccabees, the Syrians chose the 25th day of Kislev
for a special ceremony in the Temple after erecting their idol altar their, so
it may have been one of their holidays. And the Jews first celebrated it to
make up for missing celebrating Sukkot earlier that year.
> [Of course customs continued to evolve, with significant impact from
> surrounding culture, which brings us to the point raised by Merav.]
>
> It is not clear, however, why we have a "displaced Succot." Succot is a
> harvest holiday, celebrating the end of the growing season in Israel.
> It was not supressed at the time Chanukah came along, so Chanukah
> doesn't really manage to be a "Sukkot in disguise."
Merav really is accurately reporting the statement in one of the
Books of the Maccabees, not that Chanukah is a "Sukkot in disguise"
but rather that it was first celebrated as a second Sukkot to
make up for having missed Sukkot that year. There is no implication
that it was always to carry that association.
> Zoraistranism, while certainly known, would not be dominant in the
> surrounding culture until after the collapse of the Bar Kochba revolt in
> 135 C.E. and the shift in Jewish population/centers of halachic
> authority to Persia.
I'd assume that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism during the same
period that Purim was introduced, a holiday that seems to have
been influenced by Persian customs.
--Lee Gold
Jacob Sommer
>
> yaakov_h...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
>
> > As Jacob mentioned, we have no record of Chanukah until the events it
> > describes: e.g., the rebellion against the Hellenes in approximately 130
> > B.C.E. Unlike Purim, the other holiday celebrated by modern Jews but
> > not mentioned in the bible,
>
> Nitpick: You mean "not mentioned in the Torah"; Purim is of course
> mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Esther.
<shrug> Lee, TTBOMK the Torah in Judaism specifically refers to the Five
Books of Moses. We have other religious documents but they ain't the
Torah.
More I am not qualified to speak on; Harold knows the history better
than I and has a better grasp of overall history of that time period. I
expect Merav does too. We might want to take this to the Overflow list.
Jacob
Winged Wolf
days was so that it would encompass the full 7 days of the holiday in
Israel?
(I think my teacher told me that when he brought up the "When is sundown in
space?" question.)
-Mat Butler
"Lee Gold" <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3A412582...@mediaone.net...
Leslie Fish
yaakov_h...@my-deja.com wrote:
> O.K., this is wandering far afield, but the Chanukah=Christamss=Pagan
> solstice argument is a perenial I can;t resist.
>
research is fascinating stuff. Tell me, was this before or after the
Jews switched from a lunar to a solar calendar, or was there still some
confusion about which calendar they were using and how to reconcile
them?
--
--Leslie <;)))><
Lee Gold
>
> Anyway, this Chanukah
> research is fascinating stuff. Tell me, was this before or after the
> Jews switched from a lunar to a solar calendar, or was there still some
> confusion about which calendar they were using and how to reconcile
> them?
The Jewish calendar is still lunar, with a leap month roughly 7 out
of 19 years, plus a few added refinements of months that are
either 29 or 30 days to ensure that there are never three holy
days in a row on which it's not permitted to have a funeral.
Hanukah was established during the 148th year of the Seleucid dynasty, back
before Julius Caesar switched the *Roman* calendar from lunar to solar.
I think Egypt was the only Mediterranean during this period to
use a solar year.
--Lee Gold
Maccabees I: http://pict.spiritweb.org/Bible/Apo/maccabees1.html
Note 1;59, first pagan sacrifice in Temple
4:54-9 Jewish rededication on the same day, with
holiday lasting eight days (as kept both in Israel
and other countries)
Maccabees II:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/ReadingRoom/Nonfiction/Apocrypha/2ndbook-maccabees
Note 1:9, 1:18, 10:6 associating Sukkot (Tabernacles) with Hanukah
Maccabees III and IV are not online as far as I can tell.
These books are not part of the Jewish Bible.
--Lee Gold
Jacob Sommer
>
> In article <91r5o7$l91$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> yaakov_h...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > O.K., this is wandering far afield, but the Chanukah=Christamss=Pagan
> > solstice argument is a perenial I can;t resist.
> >
> Hi, Harold! How's the songwriting coming? Anyway, this Chanukah
> research is fascinating stuff. Tell me, was this before or after the
> Jews switched from a lunar to a solar calendar, or was there still some
> confusion about which calendar they were using and how to reconcile
> them?
We're still using a lunar calendar, Leslie. Why else do you think
Hanukah jumps around start times from year to year? :)
Jacob
Michelle Hansard
Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3A412B2A...@earthlink.net...
>We might want to take this to the Overflow list.
Oh please don't. I'm finding this fascinating. Do carry on! Seriously!
--
--
Michelle Hansard (vixy)
http://www.cyphertext.net/~vix/
If you want sense, you'll have to make your own.
--Norton Juster, _The Phantom Tollbooth_
Lee Gold
by Lee Gold, Copyright December, 1996
originally published in Xenofilkia #56
to the tune of "The Wind from Rainbow's End"
sparked by a comment from Solomon Davidoff
When I was a child, the kids in the first grade
Asked, "Does Hanukkah mean Christmas" and "Why does it have eight days?"
"Why isn't it the same date for two years in a row?"
They'd gather 'round and listen to my tales of long-ago.
CHORUS: Alexander the Great.... But a small town named Modin....
Judah the Hammer.... The Temple was swept clean.
Rededication, while the Old Moon shrank each night....
And a tiny cruse of oil that lit up the Feast of Lights.
As I grew older, we studied the Three R's.
The mundane girls took Cooking; the guys boned up on cars.
We hadn't much to talk about -- except on winter days
When they'd gather 'round and ask me, "Why does Hanukkah have eight days?"
CHORUS
I went on to college and I studied Shakespeare's plays,
But nobody asked Shylock, "Why does Hanukkah have eight days?"
And nobody asked Fagin -- the reason's plain to see:
They all of them were waiting till the time they could ask me.
CHORUS
I've kept up my studying, and I'm a filking bard,
But the questions haven't ended -- and they've started getting hard.
"Why do the kids get coins or choc'lates wrapped in golden foil,
And back before Columbus, what did people fry in oil?"
Alexander the Great.... But a small town named Modin....
Judah the Hammer.... The Temple was swept clean.
Rededication, while the Old Moon shrank each night,
And a tiny cruse of oil that lit up the Feast of Lights.
They held a second Sukkot 'cause they'd spent the first in fights.
The darkest nights of winter were the time that they lit lights.
A one-day vial of oil lit the Temple for eight nights.
A tiny cruse of oil lit up the Feast of Lights.
Note: If I get letters/email saying the chorus is unclear, I'll be happy either
to publish an explanation here (if there are lots of people asking questions)
or to answer questions individually.
Jacob Sommer
>
> Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3A412B2A...@earthlink.net...
> >We might want to take this to the Overflow list.
>
> Oh please don't. I'm finding this fascinating. Do carry on! Seriously!
Aren't you on Overflow?
Jacob
ShadoweLover
"Jacob Sommer" <len...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
> Aren't you on Overflow?
I dont know about Overflow either...how does one get on it?
Blessings,
Shadowe Lover
Lee Gold
>
> "Jacob Sommer" <len...@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> > Aren't you on Overflow?
>
> I dont know about Overflow either...how does one get on it?
Email Kay Shapero and ask.
Or go to http://lists.filknet.org/list-help.html.
--Lee
ShadoweLover
"Lee Gold" <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote
> Email Kay Shapero and ask.
> Or go to http://lists.filknet.org/list-help.html.
Thanks Lee! A bit confusing first thing in thew morning, but I think I
managed....
BLessings,
Shadowe Lover
Rich Brown
traffic. Are there messages at the moment?
Steve Brinich
> Hi, Harold! How's the songwriting coming? Anyway, this Chanukah
> research is fascinating stuff. Tell me, was this before or after the
> Jews switched from a lunar to a solar calendar, or was there still some
> confusion about which calendar they were using and how to reconcile
> them?
Actually, the Jewish calendar is a hybrid lunar-solar calendar. That
is, individual months remain the correct length of a lunar month (which
is about 29.5 days, so months usually alternate between 29 and 30 days),
and years have either 12 or 13 lunar months in order to stay
approximately in pace with a solar calendar. The "approximately" is why
Jewish holidays oscillate a bit on the (solar) Gregorian calendar, the
"in pace" is why they don't wander over the entire year (as Moslem
holidays, which use a pure lunar calendar where every year is 12 lunar
months, do).
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Conterpoint Four: http://www.filker.org/conterpoint/
Steve Brinich
> Of course, things were much worse in Rome, where leap years only occurred when
> the Senate remembered to do it
I've read that their memories tended to be much better if the people
in charge of the calendar were allied with the people in power. I don't
know if this is true, but it would be consistent with the general
corruption level of the late Republic.
Leslie Fish
--
--Leslie <;)))><
Leslie Fish
Steve Brinich <ste...@radix.net> wrote:
> Lee Gold wrote:
>
> > Of course, things were much worse in Rome, where leap years only
occurred when
> > the Senate remembered to do it
>
> I've read that their memories tended to be much better if the people
> in charge of the calendar were allied with the people in power. I
don't
> know if this is true, but it would be consistent with the general
> corruption level of the late Republic.
>
thought that another election would be a good idea. Heh-heh!
'"Time for another Consular Election," said Caesar, as the calendar
gave a lurch and sank deeper into the swamp.'
Lee Gold
>
> As I recall, Julius Caesar "reformed" the calendar whenever he
> thought that another election would be a good idea.
No, he only did it once, and got it pretty much right (except for
leap years only coming one century out of four on years divisible
by a hundred).
--Lee
Kay Shapero
21 Dec 00 14:04, Michelle Hansard wrote to All:
MH> Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
MH> news:3A412B2A...@earthlink.net...
>>We might want to take this to the Overflow list.
MH> Oh please don't. I'm finding this fascinating. Do carry on!
MH> Seriously!
I'm rather enjoying it myself, but they do have a point that it's getting off
topic. Are you having trouble signing up for the mailing list? If so, I can
add your address directly. And now that it's off egroups and onto FilkNet,
there are no more advertisements at the end of posts or such annoying things.