J'adoube
James Johnson
after moving the chequers about, cannot remember where they were (the
chequers :) or neither player can remember, or there is a dispute?
Also in a money game the same thing happens, nobody about to rule, what
would be the 'sporting' thing to do be ?
if you are:
a: the player who was moving the chequers
b: the player who's mind wandered and suspects that the position is not
legal.
This whole area is open to abuse, if it is felt 'touch move' is too strong
a solution, a warning similar to 'j'adoube' in chess, saying I am going to
have a look, so as to alert your opponent, might become an accepted
solution.
Jim Johnson (figgis)
Andrew Grant
granted in any other game of skill.
Andrew Grant.
James Johnson <fig...@figgis.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3950...@news.server.worldonline.co.uk...
VSG
Andrew Grant <a...@honinbo.freeserve.co.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
8irj7e$voq$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Why is touch-move regarded as "too strong a solution"? It would be taken
for
> granted in any other game of skill.
>
I would guess the reason is that backgammon has a lot of pattern recognition
in it. In GG for example I notice that the 1900+ players are far more likely
to move then assess,move back and try another option etc before picking up
the dice. I think it is acceptable from most players nowadays that these
assessment moves are fair and I dont think skill has anything to do with it.
regards
Alan Webb
Webbys backgammon site
www.isg-vsg.de/backgammon/BGHome.htm
Julian Haley
situations where I have rolled doubles and have many possible moves. It can
be easy to eliminate the obviously inferior plays without resorting to
moving checkers around... but sometimes there are 2 or 3 possibilities which
all have merit. Trying to visualize the board after four (or more, it
hitting blots is involved) checkers have moved can be difficult... and
comparing 2 or 3 positions, each involving multiple checker movements
coupled with the usual calculations (pip counts, hitting numbers, game
and/or match equity) can be too much to handle for my non-upgradeable
organic neural net.
I'm sure there are many people out there who can get by without shuffling
... but for the majority, it makes a big different to actually "see" a
position to evaluate it.
I don't think is lessens the game by permitting shuffling but I agree there
are potential problems when the players either can't remember.. or don't
agree on the starting position.
I agree with 'j'adoube' suggestion. If the position is sufficiently
complicated, it can be very easy to forget the starting point (especially if
you are playing someone like I did last year who rolled double 1's, then
proceeded to move six moves of 1 pip each... and STILL had a checker on the
bar)
For the extreme situations where one player repeatedly (either purposely or
not) errs when retuning the checkers to the original position, it may become
necessary for someone to copy the position onto a position sheet and have
both players agree to the accuracy of the noted position before shuffling
commences. It may sound slow... but its bound to be much quicker than trying
to sort out the mess which occurs when neither player agrees on the original
position.
that's my 2 cents worth
julian
"Andrew Grant" <a...@honinbo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8irj7e$voq$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Why is touch-move regarded as "too strong a solution"? It would be taken
for
> granted in any other game of skill.
>
Andrew Grant
VSG <vsg...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:8isgu8$2ji$11$1...@news.t-online.com...
> I would guess the reason is that backgammon has a lot of pattern
recognition
> in it.
Sorry, but I can't accept this as a valid excuse.
The ultimate game of pattern recognition is Go. Speaking as a 3-dan go
player, I can tell you that anyone who tried out candidate moves on the
board before playing his/her move in a tournament would be lucky to avoid
disqualification. And this is a game in which it can be necessary at the top
level to read 20-30 moves ahead and recognise and evaluate the pattern that
emerges afterward before deciding on a move.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a certain level of mental
discipline in Backgammon. I think the only real reason that a touch-move
rule doesn't exist in Backgammon is that it hasn't existed in the past and
Backgammon players aren't used to the idea.
Andrew Grant.
Lorene
practice of moving the stones all over the board and then back
again...sometimes several times before making the actual move.
"Andrew Grant" <a...@honinbo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8iu6df$96m$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Donald Kahn
<a...@honinbo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>VSG <vsg...@t-online.de> wrote in message
>news:8isgu8$2ji$11$1...@news.t-online.com...
>> I would guess the reason is that backgammon has a lot of pattern
>recognition
>> in it.
>
>Sorry, but I can't accept this as a valid excuse.
>
>The ultimate game of pattern recognition is Go. Speaking as a 3-dan go
>player, I can tell you that anyone who tried out candidate moves on the
>board before playing his/her move in a tournament would be lucky to avoid
>disqualification. And this is a game in which it can be necessary at the top
>level to read 20-30 moves ahead and recognise and evaluate the pattern that
>emerges afterward before deciding on a move.
>
>I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a certain level of mental
>discipline in Backgammon. I think the only real reason that a touch-move
>rule doesn't exist in Backgammon is that it hasn't existed in the past and
>Backgammon players aren't used to the idea.
>
>Andrew Grant.
>
One more yes vote. I have never found it necessary to do this and
can't imagine anyone else needing to. A rule that the other player
has 100% assumption of right in case of dispute would cut it down to
zero in a hurry.
dk
Larry Thoman
checkers game (or any other uniquely colored or shaped markers) to mark
one's position before shuffling? This would seem to be a lot easier than
marking one's position on paper. The markers are picked up when the dice
is, ready for the next move.
--
PLAY PONG & LIVE LONG!
Larry Thoman, General Manager, Newgy Industries
805 Teal Drive, P.O. Box 959, Gallatin, TN 37066 USA
http://www.newgy.com.
JP White
> What about using differently colored checkers, like a red one from a
> checkers game (or any other uniquely colored or shaped markers) to mark
> one's position before shuffling?
You must be a golfer.
Not a bad idea, tho I wonder if folks would take it seriously?
JP
--
JP White
jp.w...@nashville.com
Daniel Murphy
<a...@honinbo.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Why is touch-move regarded as "too strong a solution"? It would be taken for
>granted in any other game of skill.
Touch-move would please many Open-level players, but not, I would
guess, most. If the number of touch-move advocates were to grow, I
could foresee the rule being adopted "experimentally" in (some) Open
flights. But no time soon. It's really not necessary. Good players
rarely lose concentration, or need to "try out" moves, or allow their
opponents to be sloppy.
If you follow this admonition -- "Don't move ANY checkers until you
know where BOTH checkers are going" -- you'll minimize disputes and
the need to "try out" any moves at all.
Tournament rules require that moves be made clearly. With regard to
trying out various moves, to my mind the rule strongly suggests that
having tried out one move, you return the checkers to their original
position before trying out another.
The Swedish Backgammon Federation rules contain a useful suggestion
that aids clarity:
"Spelare rekommenderas att placera brickorna minst 2 cm ovanför den/de
bricka/brickor som ligger på den tilltänkta tungan eller brädeskanten
ifall tungan är tom."
Got it? :) In other words, when you're planning on "trying out"
moves, place the moved checkers slightly above the checkers already on
the new point, or slightly above the edge of the board if the point
was empty.
Lorene
move them??? I mean....come on...this is really getting funny now to hear
you backgammon types whining about not being able to make all sorts of
practice moves before your real on...LOL
"JP White" <jp.w...@nashville.com> wrote in message
news:39595A77...@nashville.com...
Mark Haley
experience (the balance online) i have difficulty when rolling doubles that
have multiple hits w/crossovers, this is the only time ive ever moved and
then removed checkers. the habitual touch players drive me crazy. perhaps if
you were allowed a certain amount of "practice moves" per match, maybe 2 or
3, this would speed-clear things up abit.
this nonsense below helps no one and is not appriciated (i will expect to be
belittled now that ive said this) but i think we can do without the
ridiculous generalized statements about "backgammon types", offer something
helpful and ill be grateful.
mark
Michael Crane
profile. Now I'll put in my two-pennyworth.
As I tournament director I am always looking for an easy life - who wants
contention and disagreement? Not me. But, in my opinion there's no
definitive answer to this question posed by Jim Johnson a long time ago.
But, having overseen thousands of games in my 'career' I can honestly say
that moving men back and forth has not been a problem to me; and believe me,
if were affecting the players under my jurisdiction I'd soon know about it!
I think the vast majority of players cope very well with it - the handful
that don't are more often than not the newer, inexperienced players. The
experienced players nearly always know where the men were previously
esconced due to the fact that with experience comes knowledge and that
knowledge includes what moves an opponent would make with the roll - second
guessing, in other words.
In my local club, Lincoln, England, we have a player that almost always
moves every combination of move possible ending up with the one that his
opponent first saw as soon as the dice stopped rolling. We despair when he
rolls a double. It is more a tactic to piss one off than for any other
reason. I won't name names, but, Jimbo, if I mention 'Stacker Staines' you
might deduce who it is ;-)))
Touch moves aren't the answer. Vigelence is everything - keep an eye on the
dice and an eye on the men and an eye on your opponent (who said backgammon
was an easy game to play?) and then you've cracked it.
Michael Crane
* Backgammon For Everyone *
* Biba & Mind Sports Worldwide *
Check out our web pages on:
www.cottagewebs.co.uk/biba/
www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/classic/bg/bg_index.html
Mark Haley <ma...@nospamkkj.com> wrote in message
news:T0l65.1088$MZ3....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Donald Kahn
<bi...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>I've sat by and read the messages on the side-lines so far; keeping a low
>profile. Now I'll put in my two-pennyworth.
>
>As I tournament director I am always looking for an easy life - who wants
>contention and disagreement? Not me. But, in my opinion there's no
>definitive answer to this question posed by Jim Johnson a long time ago.
>But, having overseen thousands of games in my 'career' I can honestly say
>that moving men back and forth has not been a problem to me; and believe me,
>if were affecting the players under my jurisdiction I'd soon know about it!
>
>I think the vast majority of players cope very well with it - the handful
>that don't are more often than not the newer, inexperienced players. The
>experienced players nearly always know where the men were previously
>esconced due to the fact that with experience comes knowledge and that
>knowledge includes what moves an opponent would make with the roll - second
>guessing, in other words.
>
>In my local club, Lincoln, England, we have a player that almost always
>moves every combination of move possible ending up with the one that his
>opponent first saw as soon as the dice stopped rolling. We despair when he
>rolls a double. It is more a tactic to piss one off than for any other
>reason. I won't name names, but, Jimbo, if I mention 'Stacker Staines' you
>might deduce who it is ;-)))
You are overly tolerant. I would decline to play in any game that he
was in. If two or three people did that (would probably be nice to
warn him in advance) it would cure him in a hurry.
dk
JP White
> How about having enough BRAINS to see where the pieces will land BEFORE you
> move them???
I am a bear of little brain.
Having said that I don't shuffle checkers that often anyway.
As for having the brains, some people just aren't good at spatial adjustments
in their minds. I don't suffer from that problem, but a lack of mental ability
in this area is just one facet of intelligence, just because someone has a hard
time with it doesn't mean they are stupid. However they may be better suited to
another type of game.
As an aside, one feature of Gamesgrid I like is that you can see your
opponent's 'practice moves'. If you see it a lot in certain types of position
then you know they are struggling. One advantage of online play is that the
computer keeps track of where the checkers came from. Because of this, it may
encourage people to try moves out and get accustomed to it, then once in the
'real world' it becomes a nuisance and a habit that maybe hard to drop.
--
JP White
jp.w...@nashville.com
Michael Crane
From: Donald Kahn <don...@easynet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Sent: 28 June 2000 19:22
Subject: Re: J'adoube
> You are overly tolerant. I would decline to play in any game that he
> was in. If two or three people did that (would probably be nice to
> warn him in advance) it would cure him in a hurry.
Donald, don't worry. If he ever entered a Biba tournament you wouldn't have
to refuse to play him as he wouldn't be allowed to play in such a manner.
Unfortunately my peers in the Lincoln Club are unwilling to take action
against him and I am just another player there albeit another player with
vast experience of directing bg tournaments ;-))
On one occassion I invoked the rules and insisted on playing with a clock
arguing that his style of play was designed to piss people off and
subsequently slowed the game down. Reluctantly (can you beleive?) the Club
agreed with my request, we played with a clock and he lost on time - no
surprise there!
Given the authority any TD can deal with such behaviour; unfortunately, at
Club level it is sometimes better to keep the peace than rock the boat -
Mind you, I've never been afraid of rocking the boat.
Michael Crane
John Greenwood
>
>As an aside, one feature of Gamesgrid I like is that you can see your
>opponent's 'practice moves'. If you see it a lot in certain types of position
>then you know they are struggling. One advantage of online play is that the
>computer keeps track of where the checkers came from. Because of this, it may
>encourage people to try moves out and get accustomed to it, then once in the
>'real world' it becomes a nuisance and a habit that maybe hard to drop.
>
>
in oppo's home board trying for a hit, move as if to run and hope the oppo
toglles auto bearoff, put it back and make another move quickly:)
Never tried it myself (honest!) but once I'd thought of the possibility I never
again toggled autobearoff without the dice in my hand!