Chouette Consulting Question
Dave
I believe the following are the usual or customary rules that govern
chouette consulting:
1. No consulting.
2. Consulting from the very start (at the first roll of the dice)
3. Consulting only after the first TURN of a cube (barring automatic
doubles).
(Of course only one of these rules is selected to govern consulting for
a given chouette session, and consulting only applies to checker play;
cube discussion is never allowed.)
The other night during a chouette game one person on the team doubled
and the box dropped him. We play where each person has his own cube.
Being a three man team, this left two players against box. Since a cube
had been turned the remaining two members of the team started to consult
on their subsequent dice roll. The box objected, saying since the lone
doubleler was dropped and is out of the game, the remaining team members
can not consult. We have never played this way before and it was the
first time I have ever heard of such a modification. In effect the box
was saying that there is no consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED.
Fortunately it did not matter, it was the last game of the night and
multiples sets of large doubles destroyed our prime vs prime game and
the box won.
I realize that any chouette session can have any set of rules as long as
there is agreement between players and there are a lot of variations to
choose from. For example, there could be a rule if a woman walks into
the room with a trained monkey on ice skates, then the box automatically
wins a gammon across the board. But in general there are usual and
customary rules that most games draw from.
So has anyone ever heard of a chouette consulting rule stating: no
consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED?
Regards,
Dave
Julian R. Haley
<snip>
> For example, there could be a rule if a woman walks into
> the room with a trained monkey on ice skates, then the box automatically
> wins a gammon across the board
your above example illustrates a good point.
Even if you "think" you have the rules figured out... an interpretation can
mean all the difference.
Now does your example refer to a woman on skates (walking) accompanied by a
trained monkey... or does it mean the monkey is wearing the skates.
If it meant the box winning a gammon, I guarantee someone would split that
hair should the situation arise :)
Christopher D. Yep
>
> Fellow players,
>
> I believe the following are the usual or customary rules that govern
> chouette consulting:
> 1. No consulting.
> 2. Consulting from the very start (at the first roll of the dice)
> 3. Consulting only after the first TURN of a cube (barring automatic
> doubles).
>
> (Of course only one of these rules is selected to govern consulting for
> a given chouette session, and consulting only applies to checker play;
> cube discussion is never allowed.)
>
> The other night during a chouette game one person on the team doubled
> and the box dropped him. We play where each person has his own cube.
> Being a three man team, this left two players against box. Since a cube
> had been turned the remaining two members of the team started to consult
> on their subsequent dice roll. The box objected, saying since the lone
> doubleler was dropped and is out of the game, the remaining team members
> can not consult. We have never played this way before and it was the
> first time I have ever heard of such a modification. In effect the box
> was saying that there is no consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED.
> Fortunately it did not matter, it was the last game of the night and
> multiples sets of large doubles destroyed our prime vs prime game and
> the box won.
>
>
> So has anyone ever heard of a chouette consulting rule stating: no
> consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED?
>
I believe it's actually quite common for players to play where a crew
member can consult if and only if his cube has been turned at least once
(and still active; i.e. if he's out of the game due to a double/drop he
of course has to remain silent). Thus, in this convention, in the above
scenario, the remaining two crew members could not consult. Only after
the non-captain crewmate's cube is turned is he allowed to talk with the
captain. Thus, there is no consulting until at least one cube has been
accepted, and then the only players allowed to talk with the captain are
those whose cubes are on 2 or higher. This is actually the first time
I've heard anyone play with the consulting rules that your group uses.
I play in a chouette where consulting is allowed at all times. However,
I believe that the convention of "consulting allowed by a crew member
only after his cube has been turned" is likely better. It makes for a
faster game in the early stages while the stakes are still low and where
the moves tend to be easier (note that with Jacoby one is never forced
to both lose a gammon and remain silent throughout the entire game).
After one's cube has been turned, the moves are likely more difficult
and more is at stake, so it makes sense to allow a crew member whose
cube has been turned to consult. Any equity that a strong player gives
up by not being able to advise a weak captain in the early stages of the
game is likely to be made up when he gets a turn in the box against
another (or the same) weak captain.
My chouette allows people to play for different stakes. That is, some
of us play for a designated stake of x, some for 2x, and some for 4x.
For a given game, the actual stake between a crew member and the box is
the minimum of their designated stakes. For example, if a "2x" player
is the box, then he plays for x against "x" players and 2x against "2x"
and "4x" players. Starting the cubes in the center at 1, 2, or 4 solves
the accounting problem (the cube would only start at 4 in the case of a
"4x" box against a "4x" crew member). I'm not sure how "consulting only
after your cube has been turned" would work with variable stakes. Does
anyone else play with variable stakes? Does "consulting only after your
cube has been turned" work well with variable stakes, or can
"undesirable" things happen?
Also my chouette plays that a player keeps the box only if he has
defeated ALL crew members. Does anyone else play this way? (I haven't
heard of anyone else using this rule.) I believe a more common rule is
that one keeps the box if he defeats the captain. An alternative is
that he keeps the box if he shows profit [or perhaps breaks even?]
against the crew.
What about order of taking cubes? That is if the box doubles some or
all of the crew members, is there any order followed as to when a crew
member must make his take/drop decision? My chouette, long-established
before I joined, uses a rule where the captain must make his take/drop
decision first, then the next player in line makes his decision, then
the 3rd player in line, etc. Does anyone else do this? I would imagine
it to be an uncommon rule.
I think chouette rules would make a good backgammon poll question. I'm
cc'ing this message to Art Grater, who I believe sets up the poll. It
might be hard to cover all possible topics or to give all possible
answers (there are so many variations!), but at least broad categories
could be used. Some things that might be worth asking:
1. Group cube or individual cube [virtually every chouette now uses
individual cubes]?
2. If individual cubes: if some crew members double the box, must the
box treat all cubes the same (drop all or take all)? (Yes; No; He must
take at least half; other)
2. Consulting: always, never, only after one's cube has been turned,
other?
3. Can one pass the box?
4. Can a crew member take alone? (Yes, without restrictions; no for
initial cubes, but yes on recubes; yes, but he must accept extras from
other crew members; yes, but he must beaver [ridiculous, but some
chouettes play this way!]; other)
Chris
Gregg Cattanach
The way our group works, (Atlanta, GA) is a player cannot consult until HIS
cube is in the game. (Everyone has their own cube.) In your example, the
player that was dropped cannot consult (of course), and the two remaining
players in the game with cubes in the middle still cannot consult. If the
box took the single cube from the player, then that player can consult with
the captain, but the remaining player with the cube in the middle must
remain silent, until his cube is in play. If it was the captain that turned
the only initial cube and it was taken, then the captain can talk, but only
to himself! (LOL) If the captain turned the only initial cube, and it
was dropped, the person that took over and the remaining player still could
not consult.
In other words, if you want to talk, YOUR cube must be in the game, not just
any cube. This seems to work out OK, and it often can give the box a little
more advantage (he needs all the help he can get, LOLL), because you will
see team members turn very early cubes, just so they can help the captain,
(perhaps a weaker player).
That's how we do it, at least, and it seems to work out OK.
One 'exception' to the cube turn consulting rule that we use, is if the Box
has a partner, (usually only allowed if there are 6 or more total players
playing), the Box and partner can discuss all cube decision, doubles and
takes, right from the beginning of the game.
--
Gregg Cattanach
Zox at GamesGrid, Zone
http://gateway.to/backgammon
ICQ #2266410
gcattana...@prodigy.net
"Dave" <imagina...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:38E55D97...@uswest.net...
> Fellow players,
>
> I believe the following are the usual or customary rules that govern
> chouette consulting:
> 1. No consulting.
> 2. Consulting from the very start (at the first roll of the dice)
> 3. Consulting only after the first TURN of a cube (barring automatic
> doubles).
>
> (Of course only one of these rules is selected to govern consulting for
> a given chouette session, and consulting only applies to checker play;
> cube discussion is never allowed.)
>
> The other night during a chouette game one person on the team doubled
> and the box dropped him. We play where each person has his own cube.
> Being a three man team, this left two players against box. Since a cube
> had been turned the remaining two members of the team started to consult
> on their subsequent dice roll. The box objected, saying since the lone
> doubler was dropped and is out of the game, the remaining team members
> can not consult. We have never played this way before and it was the
> first time I have ever heard of such a modification. In effect the box
> was saying that there is no consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED.
> etc.
Gregg Cattanach
Here's some of the ways we play it in Atlanta, in response to your
questions.
"Christopher D. Yep" <ye...@osu.edu> wrote in message
news:38E59015...@osu.edu...
>
> I believe it's actually quite common for players to play where a crew
> member can consult if and only if his cube has been turned at least once
> (and still active; i.e. if he's out of the game due to a double/drop he
> of course has to remain silent). Thus, in this convention, in the above
> scenario, the remaining two crew members could not consult. Only after
> the non-captain crewmate's cube is turned is he allowed to talk with the
> captain. Thus, there is no consulting until at least one cube has been
> accepted, and then the only players allowed to talk with the captain are
> those whose cubes are on 2 or higher.
------ We handle all of the above exactly this way.
>
> I play in a chouette where consulting is allowed at all times.
We only play with consulting allowed after cube turns.
>
> My chouette allows people to play for different stakes. That is, some
> of us play for a designated stake of x, some for 2x, and some for 4x.
> For a given game, the actual stake between a crew member and the box is
> the minimum of their designated stakes. For example, if a "2x" player
> is the box, then he plays for x against "x" players and 2x against "2x"
> and "4x" players. Starting the cubes in the center at 1, 2, or 4 solves
> the accounting problem (the cube would only start at 4 in the case of a
> "4x" box against a "4x" crew member). I'm not sure how "consulting only
> after your cube has been turned" would work with variable stakes. Does
> anyone else play with variable stakes? Does "consulting only after your
> cube has been turned" work well with variable stakes, or can
> "undesirable" things happen?
We play with variable stakes this way at some times, and the consulting
rules don't change. I certainly haven't noticed any new problems concerning
consulting because of the variable cube sizes.
>
> Also my chouette plays that a player keeps the box only if he has
> defeated ALL crew members. Does anyone else play this way? (I haven't
> heard of anyone else using this rule.) I believe a more common rule is
> that one keeps the box if he defeats the captain. An alternative is
> that he keeps the box if he shows profit [or perhaps breaks even?]
> against the crew.
Our standard rule is the Box MUST defeat the captain, and also must at least
break even on the score sheet for this game in order to keep the box. I
would find needing to beat ALL the members far to stringent, especially with
individual cubes. I wouldn't like that at all.
>
> What about order of taking cubes? That is if the box doubles some or
> all of the crew members, is there any order followed as to when a crew
> member must make his take/drop decision? My chouette, long-established
> before I joined, uses a rule where the captain must make his take/drop
> decision first, then the next player in line makes his decision, then
> the 3rd player in line, etc
We do use this rule, that the captain makes the first decision, and then in
the order of the team. In practice, if someone wants to decide ahead of his
turn, there is no penalty, but people lower on the list can properly wait
until the captain and members above them have decided first.
> 2. If individual cubes: if some crew members double the box, must the
> box treat all cubes the same (drop all or take all)? (Yes; No; He must
> take at least half; other)
ONLY when ALL cubes are turned from the middle by the team, the box must
take at least half of them. Any redoubles, or if ALL initial cubes are not
turned together, the box can handle them any way he pleases.
> 3. Can one pass the box?
Yes.
> 4. Can a crew member take alone? (Yes, without restrictions; no for
> initial cubes, but yes on recubes; yes, but he must accept extras from
> other crew members; yes, but he must beaver [ridiculous, but some
> chouettes play this way!]; other)
For INITIAL cube turns, if all team members drop, but a single team member
wants to take, he must take Extras from any of the droppers, if the droppers
offer them. We used to use the beaver rule, but only use the Extra system
now. The beaver rule still created a long game with only the two seated
players involved, which is boring and what we want to avoid. There are no
restrictions on any recubes, they can be handled in any way by the players,
regardless of the other player's decisions.
These are the rules we use in Atlanta, and everyone seem pretty happy with
the entire system. We meet and play every Monday (chouettes only, usually 2
or 3 tables going), and Thursday (Tournament with chouettes squeezed in
around the tournament matches, 10-16 players, usually). We also have a once
a month Sunday tournament.
GL in your next!
Dave
makes perfect sense. I believe our club has been playing under a few not so
usual and customary rules.
It would be interesting to see a list of chouette rules that clubs around
the world use. The easy way to do this would be to have a huge master list
indexed in sections, like 1.1.1, 1.1.2, ..., then a club could list its
rules as 1.1.5, 2.3.9, 5.2.2 , 9.1.7, ... . Also, there could be a forum to
discuss the merit of existing and new rules. Clubs would then have a place
to look at new and old ideas and decide if they want to modify their rule
base.
Thanks again,
Dave
Dave wrote:
> Fellow players,
>
> I believe the following are the usual or customary rules that govern
> chouette consulting:
> 1. No consulting.
> 2. Consulting from the very start (at the first roll of the dice)
> 3. Consulting only after the first TURN of a cube (barring automatic
> doubles).
>
> (Of course only one of these rules is selected to govern consulting for
> a given chouette session, and consulting only applies to checker play;
> cube discussion is never allowed.)
>
> The other night during a chouette game one person on the team doubled
> and the box dropped him. We play where each person has his own cube.
> Being a three man team, this left two players against box. Since a cube
> had been turned the remaining two members of the team started to consult
> on their subsequent dice roll. The box objected, saying since the lone
> doubleler was dropped and is out of the game, the remaining team members
> can not consult. We have never played this way before and it was the
> first time I have ever heard of such a modification. In effect the box
> was saying that there is no consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED.
> Fortunately it did not matter, it was the last game of the night and
> multiples sets of large doubles destroyed our prime vs prime game and
> the box won.
>
> I realize that any chouette session can have any set of rules as long as
> there is agreement between players and there are a lot of variations to
> choose from. For example, there could be a rule if a woman walks into
> the room with a trained monkey on ice skates, then the box automatically
> wins a gammon across the board. But in general there are usual and
> customary rules that most games draw from.
>
> So has anyone ever heard of a chouette consulting rule stating: no
> consulting unless a cube has been ACCEPTED?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
Julian Hayward
<ye...@osu.edu> writes
>
>Also my chouette plays that a player keeps the box only if he has
>defeated ALL crew members. Does anyone else play this way? (I haven't
>heard of anyone else using this rule.) I believe a more common rule is
>that one keeps the box if he defeats the captain. An alternative is
>that he keeps the box if he shows profit [or perhaps breaks even?]
>against the crew.
The only rule I've come across is that the box must beat the captain in
order to stay. It does, however, mean that with individual cubes there
is incentive for the box to take just the captain (if he wants to keep
the box!) when everyone doubles.
I also think it's pretty standard for the captain to be the one to take
over as box. I did come across one group that played that the box was
replaced by the last player to roll the dice for the crew - giving lowly
crew members incentive to play chicken as to how late to double (if the
captain doubles correctly but alone, and is dropped by the box, he
doesn't get promoted!)
>4. Can a crew member take alone? (Yes, without restrictions; no for
>initial cubes, but yes on recubes; yes, but he must accept extras from
>other crew members; yes, but he must beaver [ridiculous, but some
>chouettes play this way!]; other)
How about, yes, but if he goes on to lose and waste everyone's time, it
automatically becomes his turn to buy the drinks...? 8-)
--
Julian Hayward 'Booles' on FIBS jul...@ratbag.demon.co.uk
+44-1344-640656 http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I always said I wanted to be somebody - I should have been more specific.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8martini8
> I play in a chouette where consulting is allowed at all times. However,
> I believe that the convention of "consulting allowed by a crew member
> only after his cube has been turned" is likely better. It makes for a
> faster game in the early stages while the stakes are still low and where
> the moves tend to be easier.......
Another point in favor of consulting only aftr one's cube is turned is
that it makes for a more dynamic chouette. All sorts of subtle doubling
strategies arise out of the interest crew members have in being able to
consult, or from the box's interest in preventing top crew members from
consulting -- "sub-optimal" doubles and drops often abound and it's part
of the fun to guagfe various members' proclivities in these areas.
In a chouette that allows unrestrained consulatation throughout the game
there is a tendency for the choices to be made by the two most
accomplished players, unless the field of players is very evenly matched.
Albert (long time no speak)