The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
Ace614575216
to the group.
Seeing as how the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust seems
to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
here, but let's be honest. The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I consider
the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
whatsoever. Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
something he is obviously clueless about? Makes you go "Hmmm?
What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
big bucks. I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
Ace
Mark Bunker
Next time, add a few.
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
> to the group.
>
> Seeing as how the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust seems
> to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
> and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
> that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
Hi!
> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
Yes, all the Scientologists who post here say it's easy to
leave, "and you can always kill yourself too, if you want."
> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
> here, but let's be honest.
"No intent (sic) to offend?????" Why do you think it's "honest"
to claim the Lisa McPherson Trust was set up by hate-filled
bigots?
> The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
> KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I
> consider
> the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
Well, obviously you are much more attracted by the KKK
atttitudes than those of critics! How long have you been
"out of" scientology?
> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
> whatsoever.
Which is obviously required in order to help people rejoin
their families?
> Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
> something he is obviously clueless about?
Yes, we get that question from OSA and other official scientos,
here.
> Makes you go "Hmmm?
> What is this guy really up to?"
No, we know exactly why you're "asking" these "questions."
We know exactly what you're up to.
> My best guess
I thought you were supposed to "know how to know?"
> is that the real
> purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
> fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
> make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
> big bucks.
I'll continue not picketing for a mere US$1,000,000.00 annual
stipend.
> I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
> other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
I'm sure you don't doubt, you're not allowed to! Oooops,
I forgot, you've "blown Flag" so you're not an official
sciento. Sorry, it's so hard to tell.
> Ace
Someone has posted here with this alias before. He was big
on insulting critics, too.
Cap.
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--
"By the taping of my glasses,
something geeky this way passes" Captain Nerd
cpt...@nerdwatch.com
http://www.nerdwatch.com
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
>to the group.
That's a nice intro.
>
>Seeing as how the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust seems
>to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
>and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
>that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
Excellent. Please provide the details of your blow from Flag. This
will be helpful I'm sure for others who might want to blow, but unlike
you may not be an OT blower.
>
>As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
>Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
Let's hope you're right. Lisa McPherson had a hell of a time. Did you
blow before Lisa was killed when she tried to leave or after she was
killed.
>
>As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
>many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
>of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
>here, but let's be honest.
Yes, lets. Wait, you're a $cientologist, right? I bet you'll pretend
you don't get the connection.
>The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
>KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I consider
>the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
You've got the paradigm backwards. The critics are the black people,
and the Miscavige regime (you work for them right?) are the KKK. There
are people dominated by the $cientology KKK's not-so-grand dragon and
brought to hate the black critics. The critics nevertheless reach out
to these KKKers in bondage with understanding to try to reach their
hearts and minds and to try to stop the hate. Some of those good old
KKKers might be waking up, and might want to escape from the cult. The
critics, black, white, male, female, young, old, big, small, all
welcome the $cientologist KKKers. Think for yourself.
>
>Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
^^^^^^^
Oh yeah.
>Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>whatsoever.
My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
$cientology. In fact he's one of the people who really does have
$cientology's number.
Do you have $cientology's number? If you don't have $cientology's
number and Bob does then surely it's obvious that he has a greater
understanding of $cientology than you do. So, do you have
$cientology's number or don't you?
I do.
>Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
>something he is obviously clueless about?
But he isn't clueless. He has $cientology's number. How many people do
you personally know who have $cientology's number? If you don't have
$cientology's number, which isn't all that hard to get after all, is
it just simple jealousy that drives you to call more knowledgeable
people clueless? Oh, you're just following orders.
> Makes you go "Hmmm?
Makes you go "Hmmm," maybe. When I read posts like yours from
$cientology agents, it just makes me go, "Thank God I've got
$cientology's number."
>What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
>purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
>fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
>make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
>big bucks.
Wouldn't that be cool. Remember, Bob has $cientology's number, so
he'll know where to start the negotiations.
But you evidence a Miscavige regime in turmoil. Once the word gets out
(and you're doing a fine job with this announcement) that $cientology
buys off people who make a nuisance of themselves for big bucks, your
cult can expect more nuisances than your members have BTs.
> I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
>other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
There are thousands of us, all sincere in our beliefs and efforts, all
of us with $cientology's number.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
>
>Ace
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Arnie Lerma <www.lermanet.com>
>
>I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
>to the group.
u-huh
If anyone believes that I know a dwarf who has a bridge to sell you
I hear his crime syndicate pays a 10% commission on the sale too!
Arnie Lerma
Secrets are the mortar binding
bricks as lies together into prisons for the mind.
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the 90's http://www.lermanet.com
Tilman Hausherr
>As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
>Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
There is now a 51th way thanks to Bob. Btw thanks for mentioning the
song. I've thrown it into the CD player (yeah, I know, for
scientologists, reel-to-reel tape recorders are the only "ethical"
devices to use) and now reading ars is even more fun.
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4] Entheta * Enturbulation * Entertainment
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
The Xenu bookstore: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Roland
>
> In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>, ace614...@aol.com
> says...
> >
> >I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
> >to the group.
>
> u-huh
>
> If anyone believes that I know a dwarf who has a bridge to sell you
>
> I hear his crime syndicate pays a 10% commission on the sale too!
I thought it was 15%
Roland
--
"I notice that we all believe that Venus has a methane atmosphere and
is unlivable. I almost got run down by a freight locomotive the other
day -- didn't look very uncivilized to me." - L. Ron Hubbard,
"Between Lives Implants" lecture, SHSBC #317. 23 July 1963.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Venusloc.ram
Tommy
>
> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
> to the group.
Of course it is, "Ace"(of clubs). Many here have long memories.
> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
> here, but let's be honest. The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
> KKK folks are to black people.
No, the LMT is to $cientolgists what the Underground Railway was to
escaped slaves - after all, there were at least 50 ways to leave the
plantation, weren't there?
Tommy
--
"Give me the scene, give me the scene, give me scene! I've had loses on
the why. I knowed there was catamounts in them mountings!"
(L. Ron Hubbard in one of his more lucid moments)
Ace614575216
>From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 01:25 AM EST
>Message-id: <cptnerd-C56930...@news2.lightlink.com>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>
>> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
>> to the group.
>>
>> to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
>> and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
>> that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
>
>
>
>> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
>> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
>
> leave, "and you can always kill yourself too, if you want."
You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public. Public
come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea that an S.O. guy
who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the LMT is
silly.
Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave Scientology.
In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such in
particular would have no use for the LMT.
>
>
>> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
>> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
>> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
>> here, but let's be honest.
>
> "No intent (sic) to offend?????" Why do you think it's "honest"
> to claim the Lisa McPherson Trust was set up by hate-filled
> bigots?
Don't put words in my mouth. You've missed the point entirely. Most S.O. that
opt to leave the S.O., are not dissaffected re: Scientology itself, and in fact
eventually become "public" Scientologists in good standing. Most would view
the LMT people as enemies and would want nothing to do with them.
>> The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
>> KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I
>> consider
>> the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
>
> Well, obviously you are much more attracted by the KKK
> atttitudes than those of critics! How long have you been
> "out of" scientology?
Although I'm out of the S.O., I do not consider myself out of Scientology.
(although some Scientologists might disagree with me)
>> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
>> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>> whatsoever.
>
> Which is obviously required in order to help people rejoin
> their families?
One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to deny the
concept of "free choice" as a valid concept. I believe that individuals are
capable of making their own choices of their own free will. And I believe this
ability (free choice) is very basic and almost impossible to suppress.
If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his family
(which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience) It is by his choice. Do
you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family member
against his or her will?
<snip>
Ace
l.l.lipshitz
| I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
| to the group.
welcome.
| Seeing as how the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust seems
| to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
| and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
| that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
how'd you 'blow flag'? i think we're all interested
in personal stories like this. share with us!
| As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
| Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
| to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
i don't like generalities like this that imply
just because you did it and found it easy,
everyone else should too. human beings are
peculiarly individual folks. the trust may be
just the ticket for some.
| As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
| many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
| of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
| here, but let's be honest. The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
| KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I consider
| the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
good point.
it is a perception that the trust will have to
overcome so scnists can get the assistance they
need.
but note that this isn't really an accurate
comparison. the blacks' perception about the
kkk is accurate; the scnists' perception about
ars critics and the lmt is not.
| Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
| Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
| whatsoever. Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
| something he is obviously clueless about?
he is not clueless. i think he has a pretty good
understanding of co$'s abusive behavior. perhaps
he doesn't have a deep understanding of the tech
since he was never a member, but that is why he
has a staff that does.
|Makes you go "Hmmm?
not i. he seems to be led by an extreme dislike
of the co$'s disgusting behavior. makes sense
to me.
don't you find it ironic that the co$'s '#1 enemy'
cares more about lisa mcpherson than her own
'church'? btw, what's the lisa mcpherson foundation
done lately?
| What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
| purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
| fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
| make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
| big bucks.
seems to me bob doesn't need the money.
|I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
| other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
hmm. well, you're entitled to your opinion, of
course, but i think it's dead wrong. i think
most people would avoid any interaction with the
'church' unless they really had deeply-held
convictions.
-elle
------------=[ l.l.lipshitz * elk...@min.net ]=------------
i'm sick with life, i'm rotten with health. -gg
Ace614575216
wrote:
>
>My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>$cientology.
You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that he
is clueless.
My suspician is that you underestimate Bob Minton. I believe that although he
is clueless re: Scientology, he is a very smart guy, in fact a lot smarter than
you.
Certainly smart enough to have "your number."
There are just too many out-points here. For example, If his purpose with the
LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the S.O. , why
would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison. For obvious reasons this is the
worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
However if the purpose is simply to harass the C. of S. it is an ideal
location.
>Makes you go "Hmmm," maybe. When I >read posts like yours from $cientology
>agents
Oops, you got me! But did you know that Diane Richardson, Bernie, Sterne and I
all work out of the same office?
Ace
Ace614575216
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 05:41 AM EST
>Btw thanks for mentioning the
>song. I've thrown it into the CD player (yeah, I know, for
>scientologists, reel-to-reel tape recorders are the only "ethical"
>devices to use)
>
?????? "reel-to-reel tape recorders are the only "ethical" devices?"
Huh?
Ace
Ace614575216
>
>No, the LMT is to $cientolgists what the Underground Railway was to
>escaped slaves - after all, there were at least 50 ways to leave the
>plantation, weren't there?
>
As I mentioned in an earlier post, thousands of Scientologists come and go
every month at Flag, and the idea that anyone else who wanted to leave couldn't
do so with very little difficulty is just plain silly.
Ace
Ace614575216
>From: elk...@min.net (l.l.lipshitz)
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999
>
> how'd you 'blow flag'? i think we're all interested
> in personal stories like this. share with us!
I was (and am) very much in love with a lady who had previously left. I was on
libs, and after seeing a movie, I took a cab to Tampa Airport and was gone.
Ace
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <19991230130431...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public.
> Public
> come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea that an
> S.O. guy
> who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the LMT
> is
> silly.
>
> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
> Scientology.
> In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such in
> particular would have no use for the LMT.
Tell that to Lisa McPherson. Oh, that's right, she tried to
leave, but she's dead, now. I don't consider isolation,
dehydration, and starvation to be "easy," but of course, YMMV.
> >> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
> >> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
> >> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
> >> here, but let's be honest.
> >
> > "No intent (sic) to offend?????" Why do you think it's "honest"
> > to claim the Lisa McPherson Trust was set up by hate-filled
> > bigots?
>
> Don't put words in my mouth. You've missed the point entirely.
No, you've done what you intended, and successfully compared
the Lisa McPherson Trust to the KKK. Congrats.
>Most S.O.
> that
> opt to leave the S.O., are not dissaffected re: Scientology itself, and
> in fact
> eventually become "public" Scientologists in good standing. Most would
> view
> the LMT people as enemies and would want nothing to do with them.
The glaring difference is, the KKK actively seek to oppress anyone
who is nonwhite, and no one tries to say otherwise, whereas the
Lisa McPherson Trust will actively seek to help anyone who is
having trouble leaving the oppressive "church" of scientology,
and no one in the "church" is going to support that.
>
> >> The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
> >> KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I
> >> consider
> >> the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
> >
> > Well, obviously you are much more attracted by the KKK
> > atttitudes than those of critics! How long have you been
> > "out of" scientology?
>
> Although I'm out of the S.O., I do not consider myself out of
> Scientology.
> (although some Scientologists might disagree with me)
>
> >> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
> >> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
> >> whatsoever.
> >
> > Which is obviously required in order to help people rejoin
> > their families?
>
> One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to deny
> the
> concept of "free choice" as a valid concept. I believe that individuals
> are
> capable of making their own choices of their own free will. And I believe
> this
> ability (free choice) is very basic and almost impossible to suppress.
Lisa McPherson tried to leave freely, but was forced back to the
"loving" arms of her "church", where she died at the hands of the
"parishioners" there. What "choice" did she have when she was
locked up by those "parishioners?" What "choice" did she have
when every attempt by her to communicate was ignored?
Tell me all the "choices" that Lisa McPherson had.
> If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his
> family
> (which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience) It is by his
> choice. Do
> you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family
> member
> against his or her will?
Lisa McPherson tried to rejoin her family, and was prevented.
Tell me the "choices" she had.
Cap.
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Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <19991230133007...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
> wrote:
> >
> >My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
> >$cientology.
>
And now "Ace of Clubs" shows his true colors.
> You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
> Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see
> that he
> is clueless.
>
> My suspician is that you underestimate Bob Minton. I believe that
> although he
> is clueless re: Scientology, he is a very smart guy, in fact a lot
> smarter than
> you.
> Certainly smart enough to have "your number."
Nothing like a little more insult, eh, "Ace of Clubs?"
> There are just too many out-points here. For example, If his purpose with
> the
> LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the S.O.
> , why
> would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison. For obvious reasons this
> is the
> worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
"Obviously" you won't tell us these reasons, either. Why should
they set up shop far away from the Fort Homicide?
Cap.
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Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <19991230133707...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> >ubject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> >From: Tommy Tommy_sp**ges...@xs.net
>
> >
> >No, the LMT is to $cientolgists what the Underground Railway was to
> >escaped slaves - after all, there were at least 50 ways to leave the
> >plantation, weren't there?
> >
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, thousands of Scientologists come and
> go
> every month at Flag, and the idea that anyone else who wanted to leave
> couldn't
> do so with very little difficulty is just plain silly.
Yeah, Lisa McPherson was able to leave after only a few weeks of
forced isolation, starvation, and dehydration.
Easy.
Cap.
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Keith Henson
> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public.
Public > come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea
that an S.O. guy > who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the
help of the LMT is > silly.
Some who have posted here required help from the CW cops to get away.
They did it with the help of family to buy them a ticket out. LMT might
be of considerable help to those without family.
> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
Scientology.
I wonder about this. You wouldn't have any actual data would you?
> In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the
time. Such in > particular would have no use for the LMT.
snip
> Although I'm out of the S.O., I do not consider myself out of Scientology.
> (although some Scientologists might disagree with me)
Interesting. Could you provide more detail? (without putting yourself
in danger, of course.)
snip
> One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to
deny the > concept of "free choice" as a valid concept. I believe that
individuals are > capable of making their own choices of their own free
will. And I believe this > ability (free choice) is very basic and almost
impossible to suppress.
I am sad to say that the modern view of "free choice" is that in many
cases there is not as much as we would like to think we have. Being
social animals for millions of years, a awful lot of what we "want" to do
is highly constrained by the social group we are in.
> If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his
family > (which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience) It is by
his choice. Do > you contend that such a person should be "helped to
rejoin" this family member > against his or her will?
It is a difficult policy to make. To a considerable extent we are kept
sane and socialized by contact with the people around us. Put us in a
different social situation and we adapt to it--much like picking up an
accent when visiting relatives who live in Texas.
An understanding of infectious insanity (which in the extreme results in
such things as Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple) might lead to policies
where a person could be taken into temporary custody for social
reorientation based on the recommendation of relatives and friends applying
to a judge.
Keith Henson
Cool! Did you even take a toothbrush! Robert Heinlein would have approved.
Keith Henson
PS, of course, there are a lot of people who don't have the price of a
ticket.
Tilman Hausherr
in <19991230133253...@ng-fi1.aol.com>:
This is a joke. "Ethical" is synonym to "helping scientology".
"Unethical" is everything which doesn't help scientology.
Scientology cherishes reel-to-reel tape recorders - it is even part of
the "student hat". Scientology is stuck in the 50ies. Picketers have
observed scientologists trying to operate videocameras, who did not even
have tapes in it.
Arnie Lerma <www.lermanet.com>
>
>arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
>wrote:
>>
>>My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>>$cientology.
>
>Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that he
>is clueless.
Well Mr Pot Kettle Black, *IF* the basis of
your sorry excuse for logic and reasoning
shown above was good enough for evaluating Mr Minton
it should serve well evaluating you.
You are the guy infested with spirits of dead space aliens
and thereby "You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after
reading the Dianetics stuff or even The Asthmatic Dwarf's recent messege to Flag
S.O. you can't see that he is clueless."
>My suspician is that you underestimate Bob Minton. I believe that although he
>is clueless re: Scientology, he is a very smart guy, in fact a lot smarter than
>you.
>Certainly smart enough to have "your number."
>
>There are just too many out-points here.
u-huh, L Ron Flubbbard's FIND THE REAL WHY technology at work.
Is this next paragraph supposed to be an example of its efficacy?
What about the line "A REAL WHY IS SOMETHING YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT"
Isn't the guy with the most OUTPOINTS your own David Miscavige?
The Master at the Helm of Sinking Ship of Fools?
>For example, If his purpose with the
>LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the S.O. , why
>would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison. For obvious reasons this is the
>worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
>However if the purpose is simply to harass the C. of S. it is an ideal
>location.
Your testimony is merely further evidence of affliction
with a terminal delusion.
>>Makes you go "Hmmm," maybe. When I >read posts like yours from $cientology
>>agents
>Oops, you got me! But did you know that Diane Richardson, Bernie, Sterne and I
>all work out of the same office?
"The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre
combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron Hubbard]. The
evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it
comes to his history, background and achievements." Judge Breckenridge
And yes Ace is difficult to differentiate between
$cientologists and NUTBALL$.
If we make a mistake once in a while it is of no consequence
it just creates a "steamed NUTBALL"
Arnie Lerma
>Ace
Frederic L. Rice
"Mark Bunker" <ben...@flash.net> wrote:
> Thanks for your input. We welcome all suggestions and ides.
>
> Next time, add a few.
Mark did not show up at the LA Sports arena. People are saying Bob cut
all his support payments.
"I think therefore I am."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Raptavio
(SNIP-O-RAMA)
> One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to
deny the
> concept of "free choice" as a valid concept. I believe that
individuals are
> capable of making their own choices of their own free will. And I
believe this
> ability (free choice) is very basic and almost impossible to
suppress.
>
Leaving the rest of the discussion of the LMT and the CoS aside, I'd
like to say at this point that suppressing free choice is far far more
easy than you might think. Ask any survivor of an abusive spouse how
much free will was involved, even when the abuser was across town,
asleep, or otherwise not there actively threatening the abusee.
Ask the people at Jonestown. Ask the Hale-Bopp cometriders. Something
happened to these people that made them lose their free will and their
ability to discriminate between sanity and insanity.
I don't think it's a particularly damning thing that the CoS believes
that free will is hard to suppress (except, it seems, when
psychiatrists are involved, to hear the CoS say it), but it is, quite
unfortunately, wrong.
--
"It must be exciting to think that way, but a drag to have to deal with
the clinical diagnosis."
roxthefox
wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 01:25 AM EST
>>Message-id: <cptnerd-C56930...@news2.lightlink.com>
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
>>ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>>
>>> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
>>> to the group.
>>>
<chomp, chomp>
>>
>>
.
>
>If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his family
>(which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience) It is by his choice. Do
>you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family member
>against his or her will?
This is doo doo and we all know it. I have a son who disconnected
from me for 10 years. He was pressured by the Co$ to do that. Now
bite your tongue you lying little poop!
roxthefox
SP3
>
><snip>
>
>Ace
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, concerned citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has" Margaret Mead
Mark Bunker
> Mark did not show up at the LA Sports arena. People are saying Bob cut
> all his support payments.
LOL
I was e-mailed in advance of the picket and asked to say I was coming to
make it look like more people would be there. I was happy to do so.
And besides, I wanted to get on that Millennium Nuts page. That animated
gif of me will look nice on XENU TV.
Of course, this would be a copyright violation to put this gif on my site
but then...some anonymous coward would have to come forward to claim it.
Beverly Rice
> arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
> >My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
> >$cientology.
> You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
> Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that he
> is clueless.
And we are to believe you are an ~expert~ on what and who being an
expert is? :-)
Game, game, game!!
> There are just too many out-points here. For example, If his purpose with the
> LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the S.O. , why
> would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison. For obvious reasons this is the
> worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
The LMT is simply a door, not the entire operation.
The best place for a door to be available for people wanting to use
it, is to have it ~where those people will be~.
I know, I know, that concept requires a lot of thought.
> However if the purpose is simply to harass the C. of S. it is an ideal
> location.
Harassing the Co$ simply consists of exposing what it wants to
keep hidden.
So, in Co$ terminology and mind-set, the LMT is harassment.
So is Truth harassment to the Co$.
Beverly
But there's the whole mechanism. There's the whole mechanism of the
GPM. There's why it exists. There's how it evolves, and so on. It is
far simpler than you would believe.
Now, when you realize - I said why they were black - when you realize
that this item here, the "goal to be a devil," may very well consist of
lifetimes, each lifetime having a full array of pictures, and that that
has all been burned down and charred to nothing but cinder by the hammer
and pound of existence, you'll see why it's a black lump and you'll see
why the GPM is a black lump. Actually, the GPM is a lump of burned up
residue, but its postulates are still there, the charge is still in it,
and it still separates and it still squares away.
Now, as you recognize, an individual has gone through a great many
very weird and terrible adventures on the course of postulating a goal
and becoming the various items in a GPM. And you recognize also that he
has been through GPM after GPM after GPM in order to get where he is
today, and so on. And he's got a lot of overts, and he's got a lot of
difficulties on the backtrack and he's having a lot of difficulties in
present time - that it is not easy, it is not easy to find the goal, to
find the top item, to go back on exactly the right number of items and
to walk all the way through a GPM; to never skip, to never jump out into
another GPM; to get down to the bottom of the GPM and list it out and
find your next goal, and so forth. None of this, none of this could be
considered to be easy. It isn't easy. But oddly enough these GPMs are
so much a carbon copy, one to the next, from pc to pc, they only vary in
the significance of the goal and the significance of the items. They
don't vary in the pattern of the goal.
You'll find the person's goal there and you'll find the item, "the
goal to be a devil," or "the goal to catch catfish," or "the goal to be
a tiger." "Somebody or something who wanted to be a tiger" - you'll find
that there. You'll find out up here "a tigerish person" or "a devil" or
something like that. And we go up the line and we get up to the top of
the thing, we inevitably find in this column of terminals, we find "a
saint," something like that. "A saintly person," something. It's
totally reversed from the situation.
We find out that the similarity of items in this GPM here ... Well,
let's say we have an item "people who care for nothing." Nothings pile
up more than anything else. We have "people who care for nothing"
as an oppterm here. And down in "the goal to be good," "people who
give up nothing" or something. And those two items are liable to
collapse one on the other. And because they are liable to collapse
one on the other, these GPMs bang.
In other words, very similar items sometimes group. And you'll be
auditing along, minding your own business, and all of a sudden the pc
will go whop, or whoop, or urp, and so on, and he'll have felt a couple
of GPMs smash together.
You'll have excited - through some wrong listing, or something of this
sort - you'll have excited a similar item in another GPM and have
collapsed it on.
Well, all this is avoided - the randomity is avoided - by being
particularly careful to get the items that belong in sequence, in
sequence. And that is normally done by not overlisting on an RI oppose
list and not underlisting on a source list. There's nothing much to it.
You can even find on the last R ... the goal as an RI oppose is a source
list, and you can even find the next goal on that if that last source
list from here down into this bank is completed.
There's all kinds of mechanical arrangements here and we haven't even
really begun to exhaust the number of possibilities that you could do to
get a GPM. It very possibly is not necessary to do a goal-oppose
terminal to get this top GPM up here. You just say, "All right. Tell
me an item, who or what would be the least likely to have the goal 'to
be a devil'." And the guy says, "A saintly person." It RRs and you put
it in as a beginning terminal line. I mean these things - these
possibilities are great, but they are mostly assistive in recovery. If
you do the goal right in the first place, you don't run into these
things.
Lronscam
<19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>, ace614...@aol.com stated"
>
>I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
>to the group.
>
>to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
>and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
>that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
>
>Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
>
>many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
>of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
>the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
>
>Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
>fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
>make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
>
>
I know so many ARSers are incined to think as I am on this post. Why is it that
people who come from no where, claiming how innocent they are of being on
Scientology's side, this one insinuating it, all of of sudden come up with the
exact PR that Scientology is constantly trying to paint Minton as?
Why would someone spend their own money as if there is going to be a big pay
off? Wollersheim has sued Scientology for 20 years and hasn't seen a pay off.
What makes any person with the least bit of common sense think that Scientology
is going to pay a person off? And it has been proven time and time again that
when you do settle out of court with Scientology, they still gun after you just
to say they are still around. Not as severe, but enough to create a state of
terror in you. And I promise that the critics will truly know when Scientology
has taken a foot hold in politics and our society. Because when that day happens
Scientology won't step down their terror, it will get worse.
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <s6nu4v...@corp.supernews.com>, Fr...@LinkLine.COM
wrote:
> Captain Nerd <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >Hash: SHA1
>
> >In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
> >ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
> >> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
> >> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
> >> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
>
> > Yes, all the Scientologists who post here say it's easy to
> > leave, "and you can always kill yourself too, if you want."
>
> If the cult victim hasn't been in too long, it may very well be easy
> for them to leave. It looks like if they don't get the hell out after
> two years or so, _then_ it becomes difficult.
>
> And of course if the cult victim has money in the bank or has detailed
> knowledge of money laundering and other criminal felonies, then it
> becomes a matter of not being allowed to leave at all. In Lisa's case,
> if something like the Lisa McPherson Trust had been around, she would
> almost certainly be alive today.
If they can prevent any more deaths like Lisa's, the effort will
be worth it.
> >> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
> >> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
> >> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
> >> here, but let's be honest.
>
> > "No intent (sic) to offend?????" Why do you think it's "honest"
> > to claim the Lisa McPherson Trust was set up by hate-filled
> > bigots?
>
> It's what the crooks tell their marks, Captain. I wasn't offended
> since I believe I understand what Ace is trying to say. The fact is
> undeniable that the crooks program their victims to believe that the
> good guys are the equal to the KKK. That _is_ a valid area of concern
> for the staff of the Lisa McPherson Trust that they must keep in mind
> when working with the people who want to leave.
It's probably a matter of someone inside judging for themselves
which is less frightening. The Lisa McPherson Trust must not do
anything that makes them look scarier than remaining in the RPF.
> >> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
> >> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
> >> whatsoever.
>
> > Which is obviously required in order to help people rejoin
> > their families?
>
> That's true. David C. has a good staff that can address all such issues.
>
> >> Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
> >> something he is obviously clueless about?
>
> > Yes, we get that question from OSA and other official scientos,
> > here.
>
> Must be a conspiracy. <laughing>
A conspiracy of scientos? Say it ain't so!
> >> Makes you go "Hmmm?
> >> What is this guy really up to?"
>
> > No, we know exactly why you're "asking" these "questions."
> > We know exactly what you're up to.
>
> It's the logical fallacy known as "begging the question." It's evident
> what Mr. Minton, David C., Jesse Prince, and all the other ex-high
> ranking
> cult followers are up to. The idea that fighting fascist
> Totalitarianistic
> despotic cult leaders needs motivations other than the obvious is the
> type
> of notions that the Scientology crooks try to program their marks with.
>
> Out in the real world, the motivations of Human Rights organizations
> like the Lisa McPherson Trust are not misunderstood -- more so when a
> specific wrong that the organization dedicates itself to correcting is
> so often exhibited in the news.
>
> >> My best guess
>
> > I thought you were supposed to "know how to know?"
>
> That assumes that this Ace is a cult follower.
Well, he did later say he's "still in scientology but not the
Sea Org."
> >> is that the real
> >> purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
> >> fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
> >> make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
> >> big bucks.
>
> <rofl!> Well, Ace is merely not thinking very deeply here.
Heh.
> > I'll continue not picketing for a mere US$1,000,000.00 annual
> > stipend.
>
> Your annual ARSCC (wrdne) payment should be more than that. Mine is.
> I mean, just look at the car I drive! A new Jag every year, in fact.
Well, my bank is tired of cashing in the platinum quarters, and wants
to deal in cash.
> >> I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
> >> other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
>
> > I'm sure you don't doubt, you're not allowed to! Oooops,
> > I forgot, you've "blown Flag" so you're not an official
> > sciento. Sorry, it's so hard to tell.
>
> He or she _does_ sound like a cult follower, it's true.
Yeah, just read the other messages, he says he's a sciento.
Cap.
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=QfEe
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <19991230220228...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> >From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>
> >> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public.
> >> Public
> >> come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea that an
> >> S.O. guy
> >> who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the
> >> LMT
> >> is
> >> silly.
> >>
> >> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
> >> Scientology.
> >> In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such
> >> in
> >> particular would have no use for the LMT.
> >
> > Tell that to Lisa McPherson. Oh, that's right, she tried to
> > leave, but she's dead, now.
>
> <snip>
> I find it pathetic (and a bit disgusting) that you feel the need to
> invoke the
> name of Lisa McPherson at every turn.
> Conversation with you must be a real joy.
We're talking about the "Lisa McPherson Trust". Who else would I
bring up?
> Friend: "Want to take in a late movie tonight, Cap?"
>
> Cap: "A late movie! A late Movie! You think Lisa might want to take in a
> late
> movie? Well, she can't take in a late movie because she's DEAD!"
>
> Friend: "Sorry I asked."
What makes you think I have friends? I'm a suppressive person,
you know.
> On a more serious note, presenting the very atypical event of the
> McPhearson
> tragedy as typical, does not in the long run help the cause of the
> critics. It
> paints an unreal scene of what actually goes on at Flag on a day to day
> basis.
> Plans made (such as the LMT) based on such a distorted view of reality
> are
> unlikely to be sound or workable.
Then there's nothing for you to be concerned about, is there? It's
not your money being spent, it's not people you know that are going
to be hurt, and it's not your plans that will fail.
So, tell us again why you are bothering to post here?
Cap.
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=Q1su
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <19991230221120...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> >From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
> >Date: Thu, 30 December 1999
>
> >> There are just too many out-points here. For example, If his purpose
> >> with
> >> the
> >> LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the
> >> S.O.
> >> , why
> >> would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison. For obvious reasons
> >> this
> >> is the
> >> worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
> >
> > "Obviously" you won't tell us these reasons, either. Why should
> > they set up shop far away from the Fort Homicide?
> >
> > Cap.
>
> The reasons ARE obvious, Cap. Think about it a bit and I'm sure you can
> figure
> them out.
But I'm not a scientologist, I don't "know how to know!"
> Where would you locate such an operation if your intention were to annoy
> and
> hopefully provoke some press-worthy incidents? 33 Fort Harrison maybe?
Why do you think that's the reason for setting up the Lisa McPherson
Trust?
Cap.
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=QyJ3
Ed
Ace614575216 wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> >From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>
> >> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public.
> >> Public
> >> come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea that an
> >> S.O. guy
> >> who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the LMT
> >> is
> >> silly.
> >>
> >> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
> >> Scientology.
> >> In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such in
> >> particular would have no use for the LMT.
> >
> > Tell that to Lisa McPherson. Oh, that's right, she tried to
> > leave, but she's dead, now.
>
> <snip>
> I find it pathetic (and a bit disgusting) that you feel the need to invoke the
> name of Lisa McPherson at every turn.
> Conversation with you must be a real joy.
>
> Friend: "Want to take in a late movie tonight, Cap?"
>
> Cap: "A late movie! A late Movie! You think Lisa might want to take in a late
> movie? Well, she can't take in a late movie because she's DEAD!"
>
> Friend: "Sorry I asked."
>
> On a more serious note, presenting the very atypical event of the McPhearson
> tragedy as typical, does not in the long run help the cause of the critics. It
> paints an unreal scene of what actually goes on at Flag on a day to day basis.
Ace, I'll respect your arguments more if you will attest that
you have read and understood the account here:
http://www.entheta.org/entheta/1stpersn/anon/
Have you read that?
Ed
> Plans made (such as the LMT) based on such a distorted view of reality are
> unlikely to be sound or workable.
>
> Ace
Beverly Rice
> >From: Beverly Rice dbj...@ao.net
> >And we are to believe you are an ~expert~ on what and who being an
> >expert is? :-)
> Nope, I'm not an expert on much of anything.
This is correct.
> However I do trust my own experience, and what I see with my own eyes.
And that is what makes you human. That is the way all humans formulate
their opinions.
> And if my direct and broad
> experience is in complete conflict with that of some clown of a self-styled
> "expert", I have no qualms about dissing same.
No one is stopping you . . . please, dis away.
What contact did you have with the inner workings of the Co$, and
what knowledge do you have of things that had been hidden?
What LRH ~Intelligence~ ops were you a part of?
Tell us of your direct and broad experience with the real inner
workings of the Co$ and those that formulated it.
And please, don't be a clown about it.
But if you want to talk about clowns that are self-styled, here is one
for you . . .
http://www.freespeech.org/xenu/oldhubb.jpg
Not a very funny clown, is he?
No, not funny at all.
But never-the-less, Hubbard was a ~clown~ that has been responsible
for laughter and rivers of tears.
And since you have such a button with the name Lisa McPherson, there
are many other names that could be mentioned. It's just that with
Lisa Co$ finally got caught with their pants down.
No sweeping this fiasco under the carpet like they did the others,
so many people becoming only memories left to fade out and be
forgotten.
That is why the name is seen. I'm sorry you don't like it. I don't
like it either.
Failures are NOT written about and memorialized by the Co$ and LRH
Policy Letters such as seen in Success Stories like ~WINS~ are.
The dead bloated TOAD was responsible for many ~Failure Stories~.
But the Co$ has been trying to promote itself as the only ~workable~
technology, and it is not.
It is just as much of a dismal ~FLOP~ as any other group and/or
organization it may try to condemn.
scientology and dianetics does ~NOT~ do what LRH stated it does,
and what Co$ promotes that it does.
It simply needs to get honest about that fact.
And as far as being in the heart of Co$ territory, that is the
right place for the LMT to be. Again, it is simply a door.
Beverly
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rice Xenu
Posted and mailed to ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216)
> Thanks for your input. We welcome all suggestions and ides.
> Next time, add a few.
That may not be entirely fair, though, Mark. He or she (Ace) _did_
mention perfectly reasonable points here. The bad guys _do_ tell
their followers all sorts of things about the protesters that they
apparently swallow without question -- along with the rest of the
trash they're sold. The Lisa McPherson Trust knows this, of course,
yet they have to internalize the facts to successfully counter the
lies told about them.
His analogy of the KKK fails, of course, but I understand his reasoning.
Though the Lisa McPherson Trust isn't the bad guys, the cult followers
_are_ told that they are, as this person suggests, the equal to the KKK
helping blacks change the hue of their skin (or Christians "helping"
gays change their sexuality, for all that.)
The cult followers who are still able and willing to think about what
theyr'e told to believe will still avail themselves of whatever help the
Lisa McPherson Trust can offer, however.
>> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
>> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
Ace's point here is true: except that the Lisa McPherson Trust would be
the first of said 50 ways in that the LMT would supply court transcripts
and a wealth of information that the cult can't afford to let its followers
ever see -- or even hear about. And people who can listen. A place to
rest, even. The LMT can provide a telephone for a cult follower to use
to call their family. Many good and worthwhile things are possible.
>> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
>> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>> whatsoever.
Mr. Minton's understand is _lacking_ but not entirely non-existant. This
_is_ a valid criticism except that Mr. Minton doesn't actually need to know
more about Scientology "tech" than he already knows. One of the things
that makes the Lisa McPherson Trust so destructive to the cult is the
fact that it has on staff individuals who were once very high ranking
inside of the cult and they _do_ know all about Scientology tech. (More:
they know the organizational structure and how the money flows to the
head cult leaders.)
If Mr. Minton was the entirety of the Lisa McPherson Trust, his or her
concern -- Ace, that is -- would be entirely valid.
>> Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
>> something he is obviously clueless about? Makes you go "Hmmm?
>> What is this guy really up to?"
He hates totalitarianistic fascism as much as most Democracy-loving
citizens of the world. If the rest of us had financial means with
which to fight the Scientology cult's abuses, I'm sure we would be
doing more as well.
Indeed, a half-way house for cultists wanting to leave the cult and re-enter
society, based in Hemet and in Los Angeles, would be the next logical step
after -- or perhaps if -- the Lisa McPherson Trust proves to be valuable.
And providing an agency to the "disconnected" family members of cult
followers who are inside is quite valuable. Family is also a victim
of these Scientology crooks, you know, not only the victims stuck
inside. While cult followers may indeed be too scared and too brainwashed
to make use of the Lisa McPherson Trust, the family members of same would
have no such worries.
Time will tell.
--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted --- Descartes
24-hour file archive access: (626) 335-9601 (FidoNet 1:218/890.0) SP4
The Skeptic Tank: http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
Scientology Criminals: http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/csindex.htm
What the Scientology cult doesn't want you to know: http://www.xenu.net/
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rice Xenu
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
>ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
>> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
> Yes, all the Scientologists who post here say it's easy to
> leave, "and you can always kill yourself too, if you want."
If the cult victim hasn't been in too long, it may very well be easy
for them to leave. It looks like if they don't get the hell out after
two years or so, _then_ it becomes difficult.
And of course if the cult victim has money in the bank or has detailed
knowledge of money laundering and other criminal felonies, then it
becomes a matter of not being allowed to leave at all. In Lisa's case,
if something like the Lisa McPherson Trust had been around, she would
almost certainly be alive today.
>> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
>> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
>> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
>> here, but let's be honest.
> "No intent (sic) to offend?????" Why do you think it's "honest"
> to claim the Lisa McPherson Trust was set up by hate-filled
> bigots?
It's what the crooks tell their marks, Captain. I wasn't offended
since I believe I understand what Ace is trying to say. The fact is
undeniable that the crooks program their victims to believe that the
good guys are the equal to the KKK. That _is_ a valid area of concern
for the staff of the Lisa McPherson Trust that they must keep in mind
when working with the people who want to leave.
>> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
>> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>> whatsoever.
> Which is obviously required in order to help people rejoin
> their families?
That's true. David C. has a good staff that can address all such issues.
>> Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
>> something he is obviously clueless about?
> Yes, we get that question from OSA and other official scientos,
> here.
Must be a conspiracy. <laughing>
>> Makes you go "Hmmm?
>> What is this guy really up to?"
> No, we know exactly why you're "asking" these "questions."
> We know exactly what you're up to.
It's the logical fallacy known as "begging the question." It's evident
what Mr. Minton, David C., Jesse Prince, and all the other ex-high ranking
cult followers are up to. The idea that fighting fascist Totalitarianistic
despotic cult leaders needs motivations other than the obvious is the type
of notions that the Scientology crooks try to program their marks with.
Out in the real world, the motivations of Human Rights organizations
like the Lisa McPherson Trust are not misunderstood -- more so when a
specific wrong that the organization dedicates itself to correcting is
so often exhibited in the news.
>> My best guess
> I thought you were supposed to "know how to know?"
That assumes that this Ace is a cult follower.
>> is that the real
>> purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
>> fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
>> make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
>> big bucks.
<rofl!> Well, Ace is merely not thinking very deeply here.
> I'll continue not picketing for a mere US$1,000,000.00 annual
> stipend.
Your annual ARSCC (wrdne) payment should be more than that. Mine is.
I mean, just look at the car I drive! A new Jag every year, in fact.
>> I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
>> other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
> I'm sure you don't doubt, you're not allowed to! Oooops,
> I forgot, you've "blown Flag" so you're not an official
> sciento. Sorry, it's so hard to tell.
He or she _does_ sound like a cult follower, it's true.
Ace614575216
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 02:33 PM EST
>>> how'd you 'blow flag'? i think we're all interested
>>> in personal stories like this. share with us!
>
>> I was (and am) very much in love with a lady who had previously left. I was
>on
>> libs, and after seeing a movie, I took a cab to Tampa Airport and was gone.
>
>
>Cool! Did you even take a toothbrush! Robert Heinlein would have approved.
>
>Keith Henson
>
Yep. Heinlein would have approved. It wasn't a planned thing. There was a
couple sitting just in front of me in the theater and they looked so in love,
and I thought to myself, "sometimes a man's got to do what a man's got to do!"
and away I went. Hadn't thought it through or I would have done it a little
differently.
Ace
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu
>arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
>wrote:
>>
>>My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>>$cientology.
>You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
>Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that he
>is clueless.
That's doubful since Gerry was a high-ranking cult follower for
several years and understands Scientology very well. He is in a
perfect position to evaluate what Mr. Minton understands and doesn't
understand about the cult.
Also, David C. is in charge of the Lisa McPherson Trust, not Mr.
Minton. And the staff are all ex-cult followers of high ranking so
they all know very well what the frauds and scams are that get sold
in the cult. Indeed, Mr. Prince understand the organizational
structure of the Ponzi scam, and he also knows how the money flows
from the marks into the pockets of the head ringleaders.
So it doesn't matter what Mr. Minton's understanding is or us not.
Ace614575216
Friend: "Sorry I asked."
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu
>>ubject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Tommy Tommy_sp**ges...@xs.net
>>No, the LMT is to $cientolgists what the Underground Railway was to
>>escaped slaves - after all, there were at least 50 ways to leave the
>>plantation, weren't there?
>As I mentioned in an earlier post, thousands of Scientologists come and go
>every month at Flag, and the idea that anyone else who wanted to leave couldn't
>do so with very little difficulty is just plain silly.
Too bad you can't ask Lisa McPherson about your opinion. The
cult wouldn't let her leave because she had money in the bank
and because she knew too much about the crooks' money laundering.
They murdered her to keep her from talking.
Ace614575216
>From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>> There are just too many out-points here. For example, If his purpose with
>> the
>> LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the S.O.
>> , why
>> would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison. For obvious reasons this
>> is the
>> worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
>
> "Obviously" you won't tell us these reasons, either. Why should
> they set up shop far away from the Fort Homicide?
>
> Cap.
The reasons ARE obvious, Cap. Think about it a bit and I'm sure you can figure
them out.
Where would you locate such an operation if your intention were to annoy and
hopefully provoke some press-worthy incidents? 33 Fort Harrison maybe?
Ace
Ace614575216
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 02:35 PM EST
>
>This is a joke. "Ethical" is synonym to "helping scientology".
>"Unethical" is everything which doesn't help scientology.
>
>Scientology cherishes reel-to-reel tape recorders - it is even part of
>the "student hat"
Mr Tilman has told a joke, now is the time we must laugh! HA, HA, HA!
Seriously, this is just more evidence of the distorted view I mentioned in an
earlier post. Everything is on cassette these days, and played on top of the
line equipment.
Ace
Ace614575216
>>>My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>>>$cientology.
>>
>>You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
>>Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that
>he
>>is clueless.
>
> Well Mr Pot Kettle Black, *IF* the basis of
> your sorry excuse for logic and reasoning
> shown above was good enough for evaluating Mr Minton
> it should serve well evaluating you.
Stick to the point, Mr "Expert." Do you believe that Bob's Dorian stuff, and
his recent message to Flag S.O. are indicative of any real understanding of
Scientology and its practices on his part? Yes, or no? I assure you, that if
Bob's message was read at a Flag staff meeting it would provoke nothing but
long, loud, and from the belly, laughter.
Ace
Ace614575216
>>
>>If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his
>family
>>(which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience) It is by his choice.
>Do
>>you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family
>member
>>against his or her will?
>
>This is doo doo and we all know it. I have a son who disconnected
>from me for 10 years.
Doo doo? Hardly. Your son had a choice to make, and he made it. And I bet, that
you had a lot to do with putting your son in a position where he had to make
such a choice, and with the decision he made.
Ace
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: elk...@min.net (l.l.lipshitz)
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999
>>
>> how'd you 'blow flag'? i think we're all interested
>> in personal stories like this. share with us!
>I was (and am) very much in love with a lady who had previously left. I was on
>libs, and after seeing a movie, I took a cab to Tampa Airport and was gone.
How long were you in and how much did they take you for? If
you don't mind answering such personal questions, that is.
Ace614575216
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 05:51 PM EST
>Message-id: <84gmuu$97p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <19991230130431...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
> ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
>(SNIP-O-RAMA)
>
>> One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to
>deny the
>> concept of "free choice" as a valid concept. I believe that
>individuals are
>> capable of making their own choices of their own free will. And I
>believe this
>> ability (free choice) is very basic and almost impossible to
>suppress.
>>
>
>Leaving the rest of the discussion of the LMT and the CoS aside, I'd
>like to say at this point that suppressing free choice is far far more
>easy than you might think.
I didn't say that by treachery or even by "education", ones free choice
couldn't be turned against them. On a gradient (particularly with a little
help) they can decide their way into almost anything, and it will all make
sense. (at least to them) This is true of any program of indoctrination, be it
into the MFC, the boyscouts the Army, or the KKK. My point is that free choice
is not easily "suppressed" but it can be turned to the indoctrinating groups
purposes. What really "sticks" a person is the denial of the role their own
free choice plays (witness the obsessiveness of many of the ex-Scientologists
involved with this newsgroup)
I'm going to say something that I know won't be well received here, and
certainly won't get much agreement, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. All
my life I have been very "anti" such indoctrination. One reason I became and
stayed a Scientologist in the first place, was because I found that Scientology
"Tech" helped me throw off the shackles of past indoctrinations, and become
very resistant and able to fend off such things in the future. I know this idea
is completely contrary to the majority mind-set of this newsgroup. I found the
idea of a tecnology that could undo such stuff fascinating and took to the tech
like a duck to water.
And of course, when it comes to the law, If we don't concede that free choice
rules, in all except the obviously insane, we get into a lot of trouble.
Well, I've rambled on long enough here.
Ace
Ace614575216
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 08:19 PM EST
<snip>
>Time will tell
Truer words have never been spoken! Will the LMT do a land-sale business or
will it be a total flop? I wonder what the expectations are of the principals
with reegrds to how many will avail themselves of the services of the LMT in
any given year. 1? 2?. I think 3 a year would for sure be on the high side.
Ace
Ace614575216
>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 07:28 PM EST
>> arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
>
>> >My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>> >$cientology.
>
>> You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
>> Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see
>that he
>> is clueless.
>
>And we are to believe you are an ~expert~ on what and who being an
>expert is? :-)
>
Nope, I'm not an expert on much of anything. However I do trust my own
experience, and what I see with my own eyes. And if my direct and broad
experience is in complete conflict with that of some clown of a self-styled
"expert", I have no qualms about dissing same.
Ace
Ralph Hilton
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
True, the death of Lisa McPherson was not typical. It does however give a
demonstration of what might happen to anyone who runs into heavy case
problems at Flag or in other Scientology centres.
The use of isolation as a practice is standard per the introspection
rundown. It is not an actual requirement in practice that such isolation
occurs under proper medical supervision from my observations while at Flag
for nearly 10 years.
According to the policies of Scientology such medical care and supervision
would be mandatory but those in charge are not in the habit of following
inconvenient policies.
As can be seen from the logs of Lisa's incarceration she was not treated
properly. If you have evidence that her treatment in isolation was atypical
then it should be presented.
--
Ralph Hilton
http://Ralph.Hilton.org
Freezone International: http://www.fzint.org
Beverly Rice
> >From: ian...@yahoo.com (roxthefox)
> >This is doo doo and we all know it. I have a son who disconnected
> >from me for 10 years.
> Doo doo? Hardly. Your son had a choice to make, and he made it. And I
> bet, that you had a lot to do with putting your son in a position
> where he had to make such a choice, and with the decision he made.
Yes, and this is where the power of the Co$'s disconnection policy
lies.
It is natural for a family member and/or friend to want to stay
in touch with their family member and/or friend who is a Co$
member.
You either comply with the Co$ member and don't expect them to
question anything or ask and/or tell them anything they would then
be required to think critically on (also labeled as "Entheta" by
LRH and Co$).
If you are deemed by your ~words~ by the Co$ to be too much
"Entheta" which would cause the Co$ member to become PTS . . .
POOF!! . . . disconnection.
Therefore, you either shut your mouth and become compliant as
the Co$ prefers, or you lose the relationship with your loved one
as they disconnect from you.
Yet another reason to ~love~ the Co$.
Beverly
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 01:25 AM EST
>>Message-id: <cptnerd-C56930...@news2.lightlink.com>
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
>>ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>>
>>> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
>>> to the group.
>>>
>>> Seeing as how the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust seems
>>> to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
>>> and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
>>> that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>>
>>> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
>>> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
>>> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
>>
>> Yes, all the Scientologists who post here say it's easy to
>> leave, "and you can always kill yourself too, if you want."
>
>You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public. Public
>come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact.
Excellent. The Trust's presence might give some of the "Public" (think
about that term for yourself) the confidence to walk into 33 N. Ft.
Harrison to talk to someone who maybe just might understand them.
Certainly the Scientology organization's "ethics officers," "security
guards," "regs," "Deesofpees," "O$A," "RTC," the "C/$," and you know
what, the "auditor," just maybe ain't going to understand them, that's
for sure.
I think if there really are (and we have your apparently first hand
observation of this fact) thousands of "public" coming and going per
month the Lisa McPherson Trust is blessedly situated.
>The idea that an S.O. guy
>who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the LMT is
>silly.
Then if the presence of the Trust will create no effect, what do you
care?
______________________
! !
! $cientology !
! Still Tilting At Windmills !
! After All These Years !
!_____________________!
!!
!!
!!
>Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave Scientology.
>In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such in
>particular would have no use for the LMT.
Glad to get the official $cientology position on these cult
demographics.
What do you call leaving $cientology?
Have I left $cientology?
I see too you indicate you're in a present time position to observe
many people all the time on lines for service in Clearwater. Wow.
You're right down the street from the Trust any way you look at it.
This is way cool. You know you will have to come forward and identify
yourself for law enforcement and in civil cases. Your attack on the
Lisa McPherson Trust, I believe can be seen, in light of the
communication lines established in Clearwater and broad knowledge of
$cientology's history, policies, practices and related acts, as a
crime and a predicate act for RICO.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
>>> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
>>> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
>>> here, but let's be honest.
>>
>> "No intent (sic) to offend?????" Why do you think it's "honest"
>> to claim the Lisa McPherson Trust was set up by hate-filled
>> bigots?
>
>Don't put words in my mouth. You've missed the point entirely. Most S.O. that
>opt to leave the S.O., are not dissaffected re: Scientology itself, and in fact
>eventually become "public" Scientologists in good standing. Most would view
>the LMT people as enemies and would want nothing to do with them.
And you do nothing to dispel your fellow $cientologists' delusion, a
scary, enemy-filled delusion, about these folks. The op to black PR
them was lost, dead agented really, at the outset, yet you extend it.
For the most base of purposes; to whip up among $cientologists hatred
where no hatred should be. To generate the illusion that violence is
indeed justified. To put $cientologists and wogs (R) at risk.
>
>
>>> The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
>>> KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I
>>> consider
>>> the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
>>
>> Well, obviously you are much more attracted by the KKK
>> atttitudes than those of critics! How long have you been
>> "out of" scientology?
>
>Although I'm out of the S.O., I do not consider myself out of Scientology.
>(although some Scientologists might disagree with me)
Well tell us then; all the time you're there in Clearwater, what do
you do? What program are you on?
>
>>> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
>>> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>>> whatsoever.
>>
>> Which is obviously required in order to help people rejoin
>> their families?
>
>One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to deny the
>concept of "free choice" as a valid concept.
Oh, now you're an authority on the tendencies of a.r.s. critics. We
aren't really a.r.s. critics, we're $cientology critics. You're the
a.r.s. critic. $cientology could be called an a.r.s. critic. But then
$cientology is a critic of just about all things wogalogical (R).
In any event, about the tendencies of people here to deny the concept
of free choice, I would say there aren't any such tendencies, and that
if there were such tendencies they would not be relevant to any
intelligent discussion.
We can assume that you are telling us about free choice so that if you
get in trouble for being the guy posting what you post you can assert
that you did so by free choice and that you were not influenced by
orders from your $O handlers. And they can say that you didn't follow
policy.
> I believe that individuals are
>capable of making their own choices of their own free will.
Survey: Is this a religious belief, or a non-religious belief?
Answer here:
> And I believe this
>ability (free choice) is very basic and almost impossible to suppress.
Okay, that belief for sure must be one or the other. Did you think of
it yourself?
If free choice is almost impossible to suppress, perhaps OTs are the
only people able enough to achieve it. Think about that for yourself.
>If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his family
>(which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience)
Tell us about the few you know about. It's good you identify your org
experiences as including being in the F$O.
It must be nice to afford to be a "public" now instead of $O fare.
When $cientologists blow from a.r.s. is it because they have mus or
because the people here have missed their withholds?
> It is by his choice.
Well, it's in Truth by God's choice. Everything is. That's the
difference between religion and $cientology. $cientology attempts to
not include God. That's a total waste of time.
>Do
>you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family member
>against his or her will?
Well let's talk about should. The family member should be allowed,
urged and helped to rejoin his family and rejoin every living person
and thing and God Himself. So the family member doesn't do what he
should because the $cientology organization, justified by its clearly
anti-social philosophy and policies, doesn't do what it and all its
personnel should. And so somebody has to get the very willful
$cientology organization and its willful operators to do what they
should. You also should do what you should.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
><snip>
>
>Ace
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
>wrote:
>>
>>My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>>$cientology.
>
>You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
>Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that he
>is clueless.
I won't read all of Dorian, although I do have an understanding of
Dorian, an understanding which is clearly different from yours. But
I'll go back and read Bob's message I think you're talking about.
Do you mean Bob's message of hope for the $ea Org of $cientology?
[Quote]
From: Bob Minton <b...@minton.org>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: A message of hope for the Sea Org of Scientology
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:25:03 -0500
Organization: The Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc., Clearwater, Florida
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Xref: ares.vphos.net alt.religion.scientology:1183015
Just close your eyes and remember back to happier times.
Those times will come again. We of the Lisa McPherson
Trust, will open our doors to you on January 6, 2000 at
33 N. Fort Harrison Ave., Clearwater, Florida 33757,
Telephone: (727) 467-9335. We will be there to help you
make those happier times return again to your life.
Now, read this and close your eyes and dream!
A VISIT FROM ST. NICHOLAS
'TWAS THE NIGHT before Christmas, when all
through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse;
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there;
The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of sugar plums danced in their heads;
And Mama in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap;
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
AWAY TO THE WINDOW I flew like a flash,
Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.
The moon on the breast of the new?fallen snow
Gave the luster of mid?day to objects below,
When what to my wondering eyes should appear
But a miniature sleigh, and eight tiny reindeer,
With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick.
MORE RAPID THAN EAGLES his courses they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name:
"Now, Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen!
On Comet! on, Cupid! on, Donder and Blitzen!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!"
As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky,
So up to the house?top the courses they flew,
With the sleigh full of toys, and St. Nicholas too.
And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
The prancing and pawing of each little hoof ?
AS I DREW IN MY HEAD and was turning around,
Down the chimney St. Nicholas came with a bound.
He was dressed all in fur from his head to his foot,
And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot;
A bundle of toys he had flung on his back,
And he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
His eyes ? how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow;
The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;
He had a broad face and a round little belly,
That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly.
He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself;
A WINK OF HIS EYE and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread;
He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled all the stockings; then turned with a jerk,
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose;
He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,
And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night. "
Clement Clarke Moore, 1822
Bob Minton,
"Keeping Scientology Working" OverTime
[End Quote]
That's funny. I thought it was an a.r.s. classic. A masterpiece,
which, as I responded at the time, gave me rushes. Do they call them
rushes?
>
>My suspician is that you underestimate Bob Minton. I believe that although he
>is clueless re: Scientology, he is a very smart guy, in fact a lot smarter than
>you.
Oh, I know, and have always known that Bob is a lot smarter than I am.
But now you tell me you suspect that I'm underestimating him. Should I
feel bad or good?
Actually I feel blessed. And now that I've got your attention, where
is blessed on the tone scale?
Bob is not only a lot smarter than I am, he's a lot more able and a
lot more on-purpose. I, on the other hand, am luckier, and I'm faster
on my feet. So things balance out. We don't know who is the better
dancer, but Bob is the better shot, and I do a better L. Ron Hubbard.
The fact is that I am an expert in the subject of $cientology,
particularly the organization's basic philosophy and policy of fair
game. I have been recognized by the court as an expert and I have been
retained in legal proceedings as an expert. I have testified over 60
days in depositions or in trials in over 20 $cientology-related cases
and have drafted and executed perhaps 60 declarations or affidavits
providing my knowledge, experiences and expert opinions.
May I ask you to provide a sample of the expert statements you've made
on the subject of $cientology so that this forum can make an informed
comparison.
The fact is that Bob is not an expert in $cientology in the same way
that I am an expert in the subject. Nevertheless, Bob, being indeed a
lot smarter than me, is very smart about the subject of $cientology.
He is also a lot smarter than me in a number of other areas. I was
given the burden almost at birth of being an expert in, above all
else, nothing. This expertise I discovered, quite late in life
actually, dovetailed rather percisely with my acquired expertise in
$cientology.
It isn't at all whether Bob is smarter than me. You'd love to make
that an issue. The reality is not Bob vs. Gerry, but Bob plus Gerry.
That's what you can't confront. You haven't got a snowball's chance of
dividing the opposition, and what you and your bosses should do is sue
for peace. Because it's worse, or better actually, than you imagined.
Not only is it not Bob vs. Gerry but Bob plus Gerry, but it's Bob plus
Gerry plus Stacy plus Jesse plus David plus Kim plus Mark plus Grady
plus Keith plus Tilman plus Roland plus Roger plus Beverly plus
Barbara plus Rox plus Gregg plus Alan plus Arnie plus Martin plus a
host of other good people all sharper or duller than Bob or me.
>Certainly smart enough to have "your number."
604-795-5852. There, now you're just as smart as Bob.
There's been this song by the other Bob running through my mind for
months, which I've quoted on occasion, although, as it turns out,
incorrectly, because in the human arena it pretty well says it all.
It's a mantram for $cientologists.
"I'm just average, common too.
I'm just like him, and the same as you.
I'm everybody's brother and son.
I ain't different than anyone.
Ain't no use to talk to me.
It's just the same as talkin' to you."
"I Shall Be Free No.10"
Bob Dylan
Bob Minton, by the way, sent me this cool computer, and I can now
listen to all these philosophers like Dylan. Me sending Bob a computer
makes no sense at all, but Bob sending me one makes all the sense in
the world. Do you see how that works?
>
>There are just too many out-points here.
Too many for whom? If there was an OT there he wouldn't complain that
there are too many outpoints. There are actually no outpoints, so you
can imagine where your complaint of too many puts you on the reality
scale.
> For example, If his purpose with the
>LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the S.O. , why
>would he locate the group at 33 Fort Harrison.
This an example of the plethoric out-points?
But you are saying that you don't know Bob's purpose. How will that
fly in court? Lad, I think you should hang in there until January 6,
keep good records, and then beat feet to 33 NFH.
> For obvious reasons this is the
>worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
What are the obvious reasons? They aren't obvious to me. I'd say it's
a pretty blessed location.
>However if the purpose is simply to harass the C. of S. it is an ideal
>location.
Look, $cientology will claim it's harassed, will whine it's harassed,
will send people like you out to generate the illusion that it's
harassed. Your org masters will incite or directly order $O personnel
to fake harassment and file fake harassment charges.
Remember, there are victims and pretended victims. Don't let the
pretended victims, the Miscavige regime $cientologists, incite
contempt for real victims, especially victims of your own
organization.
>
>>Makes you go "Hmmm," maybe. When I >read posts like yours from $cientology
>>agents
>
>Oops, you got me! But did you know that Diane Richardson, Bernie, Sterne and I
>all work out of the same office?
Do you mean Sten-Arne? I don't believe you. I think he's got
$cientology's number, and $cientology doesn't have his number. I think
he's broken hearted, and I can understand that. Have you ever been
broken hearted?
>
>Ace
Very funny.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
Ted Mayett
wrote:
>
>> Mark did not show up at the LA Sports arena. People are saying Bob cut
>> all his support payments.
>
>LOL
>
>I was e-mailed in advance of the picket and asked to say I was coming to
>make it look like more people would be there. I was happy to do so.
>
Would you have thought of it on your own had you not been asked?
I'm curious.
barb
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
> > >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> > >From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
> > >Date: Thu, 30 December 1999
> >
> > >> with
> > >> the
> > >> LMT is really to provide a safe haven for those seeking to leave the
> > >> S.O.
> > >> , why
> > >> this
> > >> is the
> > >> worst possible location imaginable for such an operation.
> > >
> > > they set up shop far away from the Fort Homicide?
> > >
> > > Cap.
> >
> > The reasons ARE obvious, Cap. Think about it a bit and I'm sure you can
> > figure
> > them out.
>
>
> > and
> > hopefully provoke some press-worthy incidents? 33 Fort Harrison maybe?
>
> Trust?
>
> Cap.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0.1
>
> iQA/AwUBOGwkB7ztfgpKlX7qEQIRiACfaW4rWSXfqWtIwM7OTiYxWp5H2SAAoPHi
> fgJOSe4MbytWaODyd7d6RxyH
> =QyJ3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> "By the taping of my glasses,
> something geeky this way passes" Captain Nerd
> cpt...@nerdwatch.com
> http://www.nerdwatch.com
It's a convenient location for those weakened on a diet of leftover rice
n' beans..
--
Barb Graham
Banned By Boston
Xenu
Scientology Reality:
"We are actually the first people that do
know a great deal about death. It is one
of the larger successes of Scientology."
--L. Ron Hubbard
Universal Actuality:
"We are actually the first people that do
know a great deal about death.It is one
of the large successes of Scientology. . .
We cause an awful lot of it."
--Retcap
barb
>
> >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> >> >$cientology.
> >
> >> You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
> >> Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see
> >that he
> >> is clueless.
> >
> >expert is? :-)
> >
> Nope, I'm not an expert on much of anything. However I do trust my own
> experience, and what I see with my own eyes. And if my direct and broad
> experience is in complete conflict with that of some clown of a self-styled
> "expert", I have no qualms about dissing same.
>
> Ace
bwahahaha! and you believe Hubbard, right?
barb
> >>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999
>
> >>
> >> in personal stories like this. share with us!
>
> >I was (and am) very much in love with a lady who had previously left. I was on
> >libs, and after seeing a movie, I took a cab to Tampa Airport and was gone.
I'm sure you'd have a different experience had you told your masters,
"I'm going to take in a movie and then blow the org!"
>
> How long were you in and how much did they take you for? If
> you don't mind answering such personal questions, that is.
>
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted --- Descartes
> 24-hour file archive access: (626) 335-9601 (FidoNet 1:218/890.0) SP4
> The Skeptic Tank: http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
> Scientology Criminals: http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/csindex.htm
> What the Scientology cult doesn't want you to know: http://www.xenu.net/
--
barb
>
> On 30 Dec 1999 18:04:31 GMT, ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216)
> wrote:
>
> >>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
> >>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 01:25 AM EST
> >>Message-id: <cptnerd-C56930...@news2.lightlink.com>
> >>
> >>Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >>ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
> >>> to the group.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>
> .
> >
> >If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his family
> >you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family member
> >against his or her will?
>
> bite your tongue you lying little poop!
>
> roxthefox
> SP3
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >Ace
>
> "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, concerned citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has" Margaret Mead
You'll prolly get some crap about free choice back from the little bot.
I imagine free choice in scientology is about as free as the choice of
an alcoholic or drug addict to sleep in doorways and live on the street.
Sure, it's a choice. But how free is it, really?
Tilman Hausherr
in <19991230221949...@ng-ch1.aol.com>:
>Seriously, this is just more evidence of the distorted view I mentioned in an
>earlier post. Everything is on cassette these days, and played on top of the
>line equipment.
Yeah sure. That is why the reel-to-reel-tape is explained in the
"Student Hat". And of course your "tapes" are in Clearsound, the amazing
sound system that isn't even patented. To listen to "top-of-the-line"
technology, listen to this:
http://www.lronhubbard.org/eng10.ram
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4] Entheta * Enturbulation * Entertainment
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
The Xenu bookstore: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Rod Keller
: On a more serious note, presenting the very atypical event of the McPhearson
: tragedy as typical, does not in the long run help the cause of the critics. It
: paints an unreal scene of what actually goes on at Flag on a day to day basis.
: Plans made (such as the LMT) based on such a distorted view of reality are
: unlikely to be sound or workable.
For me, the tragedy of Lisa McPherson is not that her experience is
typical. Obviously, it is not or most Scientologists would have passed on
by now. The tragedy is that she was treated using standard tech, meaning
that Scientology believes that what they did was right, not wrong. Under
the same circumstances they would react pretty much the same way today.
The example of Lisa McPherson should be used to protect the lives of the
minority of Scientologists who go PTS III. That people are confined and
baby-watched instead of seeking competent help is criminal.
--
Rod Keller / rke...@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / CWPD Mouthpiece / Killer Rod
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Vision of Destruction
Bigot of Mystery / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully
Mark Bunker
Ted Mayett <Ted.M...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:387466b6...@enews.newsguy.com...
Yes, Ted, I would have. But since some folks are still pissed that we
changed our July picket plans at the very last second and went to Clearwater
instead of L.A., I was reluctant to put more disinformation into the group.
Since I was asked, however, I decided to do it.
And I got a spiffy animated gif out of it. :0)
Mark Bunker
Ace614575216 <ace614...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991230231901...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
Ace, I believe those one, two or three people and their families and loved
ones would find it money well spent.
And while we're in those lulls between actively helping those individuals,
we can spend our time educating people about the fraud of Scientology.
Steve A
wrote:
> I've followed ARS, a while now, but this is my first message
> to the group.
>
> Seeing as how the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust seems
> to be along the lines of helping Scientologists "see the light"
> and "blow Flag", and seeing as how I've been there and done
> that, I thought I would post a few thoughts on the subject.
>
> As for the "blow Flag" part, who the hell needs the LMT to blow
> Flag? As Paul Simon said in the song, "There must be 50 ways
> to leave your lover." It just isn't that hard a thing to do.
There have been quite a few stories of people running through
Clearwater, pursued by Scn security guards. Lisa McPherson clearly
found herself in a very sticky position shortly before she crashed her
car while being followed by Scn people.
Having somewhere to bolt into, even if only to spend an hour or to
considering one's position, would seem to me to be a *very* beneficial
bit of assistance.
> As for the "see the light" part, I would pose the question, "How
> many blacks would be inclined to avail themselves of the services
> of an educational "trust" set up by the KKK?" No intent to offend
> here, but let's be honest. The ARS critics are to Scientologists, as the
> KKK folks are to black people. (note that this does not mean that I consider
> the KKK folks = ARS critics so please hold on the flames)
I think that the a.r.s. critics are to the _hierarchy_ of Scientology
what the KKK are to black people. Sure, the hierarchy is busy telling
its followers that all critics are criminals, but if the cracks are
going to develop to the point that people might be looking to get out,
it's just possible that the cracks will have developed to the point
that those people might not be believing everything they've been told.
> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
> whatsoever. Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
> something he is obviously clueless about?
I wouldn't say he is "obviously" clueless. I don't suppose that most
people who open drug drop-in centres understand the range of problems
that their clients will be experiencing, but that doesn't invalidate
the work they are doing, does it?
> Makes you go "Hmmm?
> What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
> purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
> fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
> make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
> big bucks.
Bob seems to have quite enough money to do what he wants to do. He is
also clearly a very skilful financial operator: why the hell would he
choose to go after Scientology as a money-making venture?
The answer is that he isn't. For his own personal reasons, which I
don't pretend to know, Bob has joined the fight against Scientology.
He brings with him a huge amount of commitment, many resources and
lots of cash. For once, an opponent of Scientology is as well-funded
as they are. No wonder they don't like it.
> I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
> other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
I think Bob's sincerity is evident even in the extremity of his
reaction to the provocations he has endured over the last couple of
years.
--
There is no legitimate reason to send email to nu...@castlsys.demon.co.uk
Mail to this address will be treated as SPAM/UCE and reported accordingly
Steve A, SP4++, GGBC, KBM, Unsalvageable PTS/SP #12,
pitiable little Dennie (plD) #1, non-Mintonista.
Banned by Windows 1984 ScienoSitter (2e+isp)
"Where don't they want you to go today?" - http://www.xenu.net
Ed
let us know he has read the Flag horror stories in:
http://www.entheta.org/entheta/1stpersn/anon/
and therefore a reasonable person will conclude he is OSA.
Ed
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Beverly Rice dbj...@ao.net
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 07:28 PM EST
>
>>> arms...@dowco.com (Gerry Armstrong)
>>
>>> >My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>>> >$cientology.
>>
>>> You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
>>> Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see
>>that he
>>> is clueless.
>>
>>And we are to believe you are an ~expert~ on what and who being an
>>expert is? :-)
>>
>Nope, I'm not an expert on much of anything. However I do trust my own
>experience, and what I see with my own eyes. And if my direct and broad
>experience is in complete conflict with that of some clown of a self-styled
>"expert", I have no qualms about dissing same.
Thank you. Did you read my other post:
"The fact is that I am an expert in the subject of $cientology,
particularly the organization's basic philosophy and policy of fair
game. I have been recognized by the court as an expert and I have been
retained in legal proceedings as an expert. I have testified over 60
days in depositions or in trials in over 20 $cientology-related cases
and have drafted and executed perhaps 60 declarations or affidavits
providing my knowledge, experiences and expert opinions.
May I ask you to provide a sample of the expert statements you've made
on the subject of $cientology so that this forum can make an informed
comparison."
So if you are such an expert that you are qualified to unqualmishly
quash a court-recognized expert on $cientology, please post your CV
and the list of cases in which you have testified. Or are the clown
shoes on the other feet?
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
>Ace
Mike O'Connor
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems From: Captain Nerd
>>cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>
>>> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and
>>> Public. Public come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact.
>>> The idea that an S.O. guy who decided to leave, couldn't easily do
>>> so without the help of the LMT is silly.
>>>
>>> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
>>> Scientology. In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag
>>> all the time. Such in particular would have no use for the LMT.
>>
>> Tell that to Lisa McPherson. Oh, that's right, she tried to
>> leave, but she's dead, now.
><snip> I find it pathetic (and a bit disgusting) that you feel the
>need to invoke the name of Lisa McPherson at every turn. Conversation
>with you must be a real joy.
Yeah, what's the big idea mentioning Lisa McPherson in a thread about
the Lisa McPherson Trust? What was he thinking?
>Friend: "Want to take in a late movie tonight, Cap?"
>
>Cap: "A late movie! A late Movie! You think Lisa might want to take in
>a late movie? Well, she can't take in a late movie because she's
>DEAD!"
Was the movie about the Lisa McPherson Trust?
>Friend: "Sorry I asked."
>On a more serious note, presenting the very atypical event of the
>McPhearson tragedy as typical,
One hundred percent pure tech, delivered by Flag experts in the Mecca of
technical perfection, on cult property, under cult care. What's atypical
about that? If you think Flag doesn't deliver one hundred percent pure
tech, tell us all about it.
>does not in the long run help the cause of the critics. It paints an
>unreal scene of what actually goes on at Flag on a day to day basis.
[...]
You say Lisa McPherson did not get processed properly at Flag? What did
Flag do wrong in the Lisa McPherson case? What unreal things did Flag do
to Lisa McPherson?
--
Mike O'Connor <mi...@leptonicsystems.com>
<http://www.leptonicsystems.com>
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Arnie Lerma www.lermanet.com <Arnie_...@newsguy.com>
>
>>>>My expert opinion is that Bob Minton has an excellent understanding of
>>>>$cientology.
>>>
>>>You disqualify yourself as any kind of real "expert" if after reading the
>>>Dorian stuff or even Minton's recent message to Flag S.O. you can't see that
>>he
>>>is clueless.
>>
>> Well Mr Pot Kettle Black, *IF* the basis of
>> your sorry excuse for logic and reasoning
>> shown above was good enough for evaluating Mr Minton
>> it should serve well evaluating you.
>
>Stick to the point, Mr "Expert." Do you believe that Bob's Dorian stuff, and
>his recent message to Flag S.O. are indicative of any real understanding of
>Scientology and its practices on his part?
If by Bob's recent message to Flag $O you mean this one:
[Quote]
Clement Clarke Moore, 1822
Bob Minton,
"Keeping Scientology Working" OverTime
[End Quote]
..... then I would say, as an expert in $cientology, that yes, this
post is indeed indicative of real understanding of $cientology and its
practices.
And I would say that after reading the Dorian stuff, that Dorian also
has a real understanding of $cientology and its practices. But, Ace,
can you honestly state that *you* have read all the Dorian stuff?
>Yes, or no? I assure you, that if
>Bob's message was read at a Flag staff meeting it would provoke nothing but
>long, loud, and from the belly, laughter.
This would indicate that Bob indeed does have $cientology's number,
because one of the goals of the opponents of your cult is to get its
suppressed people belly laughing again. Not the usual, guilty,
sarcastic laughs of the usual, guilty, sarcastic suppressed
$cientologists, but the belly laughs of free men and women, laughing
at the Miscavigeites who've been suppressing them all these years.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
>
>Ace
>
>
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>>From: Keith Henson hkhe...@netcom8.netcom.com
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 02:33 PM EST
>
>>>> how'd you 'blow flag'? i think we're all interested
>>>> in personal stories like this. share with us!
>>
>>> I was (and am) very much in love with a lady who had previously left. I was
>>on
>>> libs, and after seeing a movie, I took a cab to Tampa Airport and was gone.
>>
>>
>>Cool! Did you even take a toothbrush! Robert Heinlein would have approved.
>>
>>Keith Henson
>>
>
>Yep. Heinlein would have approved. It wasn't a planned thing. There was a
>couple sitting just in front of me in the theater and they looked so in love,
>and I thought to myself, "sometimes a man's got to do what a man's got to do!"
>and away I went. Hadn't thought it through or I would have done it a little
>differently.
Do you believe your leaving the $ea Org without routing out, without
advising your seniors, was a crime or a high crime?
You know what, about opposing your cult's abusive leaders, abusive
policies and practices, and dangerous stupidity, sometimes a man's got
to do what a man's got to do. Why do you think that's a bad thing?
>
>Ace
Yeah, sure.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
Gerry Armstrong
<ra...@scientology.at> wrote:
>On 31 Dec 1999 03:02:28 GMT, ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>>From: Captain Nerd cpt...@nerdwatch.com
>>
>>>> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public.
>>>> Public
>>>> come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea that an
>>>> S.O. guy
>>>> who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the LMT
>>>> is
>>>> silly.
>>>>
>>>> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
>>>> Scientology.
>>>> In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such in
>>>> particular would have no use for the LMT.
>>>
>>> Tell that to Lisa McPherson. Oh, that's right, she tried to
>>> leave, but she's dead, now.
>>
>><snip>
>>I find it pathetic (and a bit disgusting) that you feel the need to invoke the
>>name of Lisa McPherson at every turn.
>>Conversation with you must be a real joy.
>>
>>Friend: "Want to take in a late movie tonight, Cap?"
>>
>>Cap: "A late movie! A late Movie! You think Lisa might want to take in a late
>>movie? Well, she can't take in a late movie because she's DEAD!"
>>
>>Friend: "Sorry I asked."
>>
>>On a more serious note, presenting the very atypical event of the McPhearson
>>tragedy as typical, does not in the long run help the cause of the critics. It
>>paints an unreal scene of what actually goes on at Flag on a day to day basis.
>>Plans made (such as the LMT) based on such a distorted view of reality are
>>unlikely to be sound or workable.
>
>True, the death of Lisa McPherson was not typical. It does however give a
>demonstration of what might happen to anyone who runs into heavy case
>problems at Flag or in other Scientology centres.
>
>The use of isolation as a practice is standard per the introspection
>rundown. It is not an actual requirement in practice that such isolation
>occurs under proper medical supervision from my observations while at Flag
>for nearly 10 years.
>
>According to the policies of Scientology such medical care and supervision
>would be mandatory but those in charge are not in the habit of following
>inconvenient policies.
>
>As can be seen from the logs of Lisa's incarceration she was not treated
>properly. If you have evidence that her treatment in isolation was atypical
>then it should be presented.
Yes, produce the logs of all the other incarcerations of all the other
$cientologists and see how atypical Lisa's incarceration was.
Otherwise acknowledge that Lisa's handling was standard, right there
in the bowels of the Mecca of Technical Perfection.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
Gerry Armstrong
wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Raptavio lordmagnu...@my-deja.com
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 05:51 PM EST
>>Message-id: <84gmuu$97p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>>
>>In article <19991230130431...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
>> ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>>
>>(SNIP-O-RAMA)
>>
>>> One thing that really disturbs me about ARS critics is a tendency to
>>deny the
>>> concept of "free choice" as a valid concept. I believe that
>>individuals are
>>> capable of making their own choices of their own free will. And I
>>believe this
>>> ability (free choice) is very basic and almost impossible to
>>suppress.
>>>
>>
>>Leaving the rest of the discussion of the LMT and the CoS aside, I'd
>>like to say at this point that suppressing free choice is far far more
>>easy than you might think.
>
>I didn't say that by treachery or even by "education", ones free choice
>couldn't be turned against them. On a gradient (particularly with a little
>help) they can decide their way into almost anything, and it will all make
>sense. (at least to them) This is true of any program of indoctrination, be it
>into the MFC, the boyscouts the Army, or the KKK. My point is that free choice
>is not easily "suppressed" but it can be turned to the indoctrinating groups
>purposes. What really "sticks" a person is the denial of the role their own
>free choice plays (witness the obsessiveness of many of the ex-Scientologists
>involved with this newsgroup)
>
>I'm going to say something that I know won't be well received here, and
>certainly won't get much agreement, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. All
>my life I have been very "anti" such indoctrination. One reason I became and
>stayed a Scientologist in the first place, was because I found that Scientology
>"Tech" helped me throw off the shackles of past indoctrinations,
What exactly were those other indoctrinations?
> and become
>very resistant and able to fend off such things in the future. I know this idea
>is completely contrary to the majority mind-set of this newsgroup. I found the
>idea of a tecnology that could undo such stuff fascinating and took to the tech
>like a duck to water.
Good. Will you therefore duck all our questions?
>
>And of course, when it comes to the law, If we don't concede that free choice
>rules, in all except the obviously insane, we get into a lot of trouble.
Oh boy, $cientology wisdom on law and human interaction. You know I
thank God I woke up and blew your cult. 18 years ago. I would have
died in there. $cientology is about as stupid as it gets.
>
>Well, I've rambled on long enough here.
Yes. Time to think for yourself.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
>Ace
>
Raptavio
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> I didn't say that by treachery or even by "education", ones free
choice
> couldn't be turned against them. On a gradient (particularly with a
little
> help) they can decide their way into almost anything, and it will all
make
> sense. (at least to them) This is true of any program of
indoctrination, be it
> into the MFC, the boyscouts the Army, or the KKK. My point is that
free choice
> is not easily "suppressed" but it can be turned to the indoctrinating
groups
> purposes.
This statement is absurd to me. You can't suppress another's free
choice, but you can make them freely choose to do what you want them to
do. Um... where's the free choice in that?
> What really "sticks" a person is the denial of the role their own
> free choice plays (witness the obsessiveness of many of the ex-
Scientologists
> involved with this newsgroup)
I don't think the 'obsessiveness' of the ex-Scientologists here is
indicative of any particular belief regarding free will, but rather in
a particular belief that the Church itself is evil.
> I'm going to say something that I know won't be well received here,
and
> certainly won't get much agreement, but I'm going to go ahead and say
it. All
> my life I have been very "anti" such indoctrination. One reason I
became and
> stayed a Scientologist in the first place, was because I found that
Scientology
> "Tech" helped me throw off the shackles of past indoctrinations, and
become
> very resistant and able to fend off such things in the future. I know
this idea
> is completely contrary to the majority mind-set of this newsgroup. I
found the
> idea of a tecnology that could undo such stuff fascinating and took
to the tech
> like a duck to water.
You say free will isn't easily suppressible yet you refer to such
things as 'shackles'. I may not be understanding you properly, but you
seem to be contradicting yourself.
> And of course, when it comes to the law, If we don't concede that
free choice
> rules, in all except the obviously insane, we get into a lot of
trouble.
Actually, someone sane but coerced into committing an illegal act is
often regarded as innocent of his crime.
--
"It must be exciting to think that way, but a drag to have to deal with
the clinical diagnosis."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Frederic L. Rice
"Mark Bunker" <ben...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> > Mark did not show up at the LA Sports arena. People are saying Bob
cut
> > all his support payments.
>
> LOL
>
> I was e-mailed in advance of the picket and asked to say I was coming
to
> make it look like more people would be there. I was happy to do so.
sockpuppet!?
"I think therefore I am."
Visit my website at
http://www. Sorry, under construction - come back later.
Gerry Armstrong
He'd have to demonstrate to me that he is qualified to evaluate
obsessiveness and that the ex-$cientologists here have any. A hallmark
of the $cientologists is pointing out causes for things that don't
exist.
>
>> I'm going to say something that I know won't be well received here,
>and
>> certainly won't get much agreement, but I'm going to go ahead and say
>it. All
>> my life I have been very "anti" such indoctrination.
One of the rare exceptions where you really did become what you
opposed.
>One reason I
>became and
>> stayed a Scientologist in the first place, was because I found that
>Scientology
>> "Tech" helped me throw off the shackles of past indoctrinations, and
>become
>> very resistant and able to fend off such things in the future. I know
>this idea
>> is completely contrary to the majority mind-set of this newsgroup. I
>found the
>> idea of a tecnology that could undo such stuff fascinating and took
>to the tech
>> like a duck to water.
>
>You say free will isn't easily suppressible yet you refer to such
>things as 'shackles'. I may not be understanding you properly, but you
>seem to be contradicting yourself.
Yes, Ace does contradict himself, and he doesn't think for himself,
and he has the usual $cientologically-impaired communication skills,
and he's not the best at what he does. Remember, his VFP is Dev-T
generated. It doesn't work, because here we alchemize base Dev-T into
gold, but that isn't important. It's Ace's stat.
>
>> And of course, when it comes to the law, If we don't concede that
>free choice
>> rules, in all except the obviously insane, we get into a lot of
>trouble.
This is just throw away babble. This Ace unit sounds very young.
Although he does indicate he was old enough to go off chasing girls.
>
>Actually, someone sane but coerced into committing an illegal act is
>often regarded as innocent of his crime.
Sure, and a draftee ordered to mow down gooks is another altered state
of free choice. People in the USSR volunteered for Stalin's gulags
just like $cientologists volunteer for the RPF.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
>--
>"It must be exciting to think that way, but a drag to have to deal with
>the clinical diagnosis."
>
>
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 02:35 PM EST
>>This is a joke. "Ethical" is synonym to "helping scientology".
>>"Unethical" is everything which doesn't help scientology.
>>Scientology cherishes reel-to-reel tape recorders - it is even part of
>>the "student hat"
>Mr Tilman has told a joke, now is the time we must laugh! HA, HA, HA!
It's no joke. Sadly, people are hurt and killed by this cult, and
"ethics" is used the most often as the cult's weapon.
Just what are you trying to defend, "ace?"
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>>From: Fr...@LinkLine.COM (Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rice Xenu)
>>Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 08:19 PM EST
><snip>
>>Time will tell
> Truer words have never been spoken!
But you cut the rest of it. The fact is that Mr. Minton doesn't run the
Lisa McPherson Trust, David C. does. And the staff is populated with
people who were once very high ranking leaders in the cult. They know
the way the cult works very well so your comments about the ignorance of
Mr. Minton is irrelevant, I hope you see.
> Will the LMT do a land-sale business or will it be a total flop?
It will be some where inbetween. At most I would say that a dozen or
so cultists would use their services the first year -- perhaps only
six or so. It's a start.
> I wonder what the expectations are of the principals
> with reegrds to how many will avail themselves of the
> services of the LMT in any given year. 1? 2?. I think
> 3 a year would for sure be on the high side.
That seems unlikely given the fact that many will have signed onto
the scam because of the new millinnium, and due to the Trust's location,
many will realize very shortly after going to "Flag" that the promises
the crooks make aren't being kept.
Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rxenu ixenu cxenu exenu Xenu
>Ace614575216 <ace614...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:19991230231901...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
>> >Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>> >From: Fr...@LinkLine.COM (Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rice Xenu)
>> >Date: Thu, 30 December 1999 08:19 PM EST
>> <snip>
>> >Time will tell
>> Truer words have never been spoken! Will the LMT do a land-sale business
>> or will it be a total flop? I wonder what the expectations are of the
>> principals with reegrds to how many will avail themselves of the services
>> of the LMT in any given year. 1? 2?. I think 3 a year would for sure be
>> on the high side.
> Ace, I believe those one, two or three people and their
> families and loved ones would find it money well spent.
I haven't heard anybody say anything about money. The Lisa McPherson
Trust must provide its services completely for free if it's to remain
an honest facility.
"Ace" doesn't seem to acknowledge the other side of the Trust: That
there will be cultists that use the Trust as a half-way house, there
are many more parents that'll use the Trust than cult followers will.
>And while we're in those lulls between actively helping those individuals,
>we can spend our time educating people about the fraud of Scientology.
And Truth goes on.
Keith Henson
snip
>>Cool! Did you even take a toothbrush! Robert Heinlein would have approved.
>>
>>Keith Henson
>>
> Yep. Heinlein would have approved. It wasn't a planned thing. There was a
> couple sitting just in front of me in the theater and they looked so in love,
> and I thought to myself, "sometimes a man's got to do what a man's got to do!"
> and away I went. Hadn't thought it through or I would have done it a little
> differently.
A very well done Ace. But had you planned it, chances are fair that you
would have been noticed packing underware, and you might have wound up in
the RPF or worse (you must have been PTS to consider *leaving* the most
ethical org on earth).
Actually, I can see that the rewards of pair bonding might well be
stronger than the rewards from the attention you were getting from the
cult. It is easy to understand why cults like scn discourage pair
bonding and childeren.
Did you eventually get your personal stuff back? The shariff deputies at
Hemet have helped recovered the belonging of a large number of people who
blew Gold Base.
Keith Henson
Keith Henson
> It is duly noted that Ace has failed to respond to my invitation to
> let us know he has read the Flag horror stories in:
> http://www.entheta.org/entheta/1stpersn/anon/
> and therefore a reasonable person will conclude he is OSA.
Some folks consider me a reasonable person, and I don't think ace is
OSA. Keith Henson
Gerry Armstrong
<hkhe...@netcom14.netcom.com> wrote:
>Ed <met...@aol.com> wrote:
>> It is duly noted that Ace has failed to respond to my invitation to
>> let us know he has read the Flag horror stories in:
>
>> http://www.entheta.org/entheta/1stpersn/anon/
>
>> and therefore a reasonable person will conclude he is OSA.
>
>Some folks consider me a reasonable person,
Do you have any evidence whatsoever?
>and I don't think ace is
>OSA. Keith Henson
Hell, I say take ace at face value.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
Diane Richardson
<cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In article <19991230130431...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
>ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
>>
>> You've got two categories of Scientologists at Flag, S.O., and Public.
>> Public
>> come and go all the time, thousands a month in fact. The idea that an
>> S.O. guy
>> who decided to leave, couldn't easily do so without the help of the LMT
>> is
>> silly.
>>
>> Realize that the majority of S.O. who leave the S.O. do not leave
>> Scientology.
>> In fact, I saw ex-S.O. on lines for service at Flag all the time. Such in
>> particular would have no use for the LMT.
>
> Tell that to Lisa McPherson. Oh, that's right, she tried to
> leave, but she's dead, now. I don't consider isolation,
> dehydration, and starvation to be "easy," but of course, YMMV.
Do you believe that the treatment of Lisa McPherson is "standard tech"
for any scientologist who wishes to leave the organization? Do you
believe everyone who decides to leave the CoS is found dead?
I don't think what happened to Lisa McPherson is typical of what
happens to scientologists who decide to leave the CoS. Rather, I
think what happened to her was a tragic error; something that's deeply
regretted by both critics and scientologists alike.
I find your use of Lisa McPherson's memory in this manner highly
offensive. I hope you (and others) stop "waving the bloody flag"
every time the mission and motives of the LMT are questioned. It
smacks of the same fanaticism as anti-abortionists shoving color
photos of fetuses in the faces of women entering abortion clinics.
Please stop it.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Diane Richardson
<hkhe...@netcom8.netcom.com> wrote:
[snip]
>An understanding of infectious insanity (which in the extreme results in
>such things as Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple) might lead to policies
>where a person could be taken into temporary custody for social
>reorientation based on the recommendation of relatives and friends applying
>to a judge.
There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
comment.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
barb
There certainly is, if the courts are anything to go by. The three black
men who whomped on the trucker during the LA riots were found to be not
guilty of murder because it was held that they were under the influence
of a 'mob mentality' and so could not be considered responsible.
Call it what you will, the phenomenon exists.
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <386e0ffa...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
wrote:
I believe many people cooperated in holding her against her will,
that these people abused her, and ultimately killed her. That no
one of them said "this is wrong" or "she needs a doctor" or tried
in any way to stop what was happening indicates that no one involved
thought what they were doing was wrong. Whether this is "standard
tech" for someone leaving is moot, it was standard enough for no
one to try to do something different when what they were doing
failed.
> I don't think what happened to Lisa McPherson is typical of what
> happens to scientologists who decide to leave the CoS. Rather, I
> think what happened to her was a tragic error; something that's deeply
> regretted by both critics and scientologists alike.
I have heard little in the way of remorse from official
scientologists. Russell Shaw and I think Enzo Picone have
expressed regret, but none of the "sock puppets" will respond
one way or the other.
> I find your use of Lisa McPherson's memory in this manner highly
> offensive. I hope you (and others) stop "waving the bloody flag"
> every time the mission and motives of the LMT are questioned. It
> smacks of the same fanaticism as anti-abortionists shoving color
> photos of fetuses in the faces of women entering abortion clinics.
Fanaticism is in the eye of the beholder.
> Please stop it.
I'm afraid I won't. Sorry.
Cap.
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--
"By the taping of my glasses,
something geeky this way passes" Captain Nerd
cpt...@nerdwatch.com
http://www.nerdwatch.com
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <386e13ba...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
wrote:
> On 30 Dec 1999 19:30:37 GMT, Keith Henson
> <hkhe...@netcom8.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >An understanding of infectious insanity (which in the extreme results in
> >such things as Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple) might lead to policies
> >where a person could be taken into temporary custody for social
> >reorientation based on the recommendation of relatives and friends
> >applying
> >to a judge.
>
> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
> comment.
You've never been to a football game, have you?
Cap.
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=71nJ
Lronscam
<19991230223137...@ng-ch1.aol.com>, ace614...@aol.com stated"
>
>>Subject: Re: The LMT, Its Purpose & Problems
>
>>>
>>>If an individual staff member at FSO is estranged from a member of his
>>family
>>>(which by the way is pretty uncommon in my experience) It is by his choice.
>>Do
>>>you contend that such a person should be "helped to rejoin" this family
>>member
>>>against his or her will?
>>
>>This is doo doo and we all know it. I have a son who disconnected
>>from me for 10 years.
>
>Doo doo? Hardly. Your son had a choice to make, and he made it. And I bet, that
>you had a lot to do with putting your son in a position where he had to make
>such a choice, and with the decision he made.
This is silly, Ace. This is so reminiscent of a Scientologists view point. Are
you sure you were never in Scientology? What could make any normal person choose
a cult over a family member? Disconnection is to keep Scientologists from
information that is given to them, by others, who seek to break the trance
Scientologists are in. Scientologists make their decisions based on the
information they have and disconnecting the flow of communication to them, would
certainly put them at a disadvantage.
>
>Ace
Lronscam
Raptavio stated"
>and
>> certainly won't get much agreement, but I'm going to go ahead and say
>it. All
>became and
>> stayed a Scientologist in the first place, was because I found that
>Scientology
>> "Tech" helped me throw off the shackles of past indoctrinations, and
>become
>> very resistant and able to fend off such things in the future. I know
>this idea
>> is completely contrary to the majority mind-set of this newsgroup. I
>found the
>> idea of a tecnology that could undo such stuff fascinating and took
>to the tech
>> like a duck to water.
>
>You say free will isn't easily suppressible yet you refer to such
>things as 'shackles'. I may not be understanding you properly, but you
>seem to be contradicting yourself.
>
>free choice
>> rules, in all except the obviously insane, we get into a lot of
>trouble.
>
>often regarded as innocent of his crime.
Both, and all of you are missing the point entirely. It is not free will that is
at issue, here. It is ~informed will~! I can't stress that enough. A child has
free will, but isn't very informed of what the consequences of his actions are.
Once he has gained enough experience in life, you could say that he has informed
will and is responsible for his actions. Courts know this and seek not to punish
children as they would have an adult.
Scientology is about agreement based on faulty or untrue data. All LRH had to do
was get a person to believe in Scientology on an increasing basis, while
shutting off the person's communication lines to negativity. Disconnection is an
agreement with the devil, albeit, a bad agreement. If you look at who are the
most loyal members to Scientology and how well they are able to communicate to
the outside world. Diversified, if not correct, information and loyalty are
inversely proportional in the world of Scientology.
Example:
JT, on the Oprah Winfrey show, said that Battlefield Earth was a number one best
seller for 20 years straight. Who told him that? He probably did not lie, but
just didn't know.
Stacy Young said that she wrote PR reports or freedom mag articles on
information that was given to her. She did not lie, but didn't have all the
information to make a ~sane~ decision.
If a sane decision is based on infromation, then one can safely assume a person
can make an insane one on faulty information, especially when the culture you
live in depends on faulty information to survive.
Need I say more to make my point effectively valid?
Diane Richardson
<cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In article <386e0ffa...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
>wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:07:50 -0500, Captain Nerd
>> <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>>
>> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> >Hash: SHA1
>> >
I agree with you.
> Whether this is "standard
> tech" for someone leaving is moot, it was standard enough for no
> one to try to do something different when what they were doing
> failed.
It's not moot at all. It was the specific point which you were
addressing. Ace stated that the majority of Sea Org personnel who
leave do not leave the CoS. You replied, "Tell that to Lisa
McPherson." Lisa McPherson was not a member of the Sea Org at the
time of her death. You gratuitously threw in Lisa McPherson's name
for lack of a rational rejoinder.
>> I don't think what happened to Lisa McPherson is typical of what
>> happens to scientologists who decide to leave the CoS. Rather, I
>> think what happened to her was a tragic error; something that's deeply
>> regretted by both critics and scientologists alike.
>
> I have heard little in the way of remorse from official
> scientologists. Russell Shaw and I think Enzo Picone have
> expressed regret, but none of the "sock puppets" will respond
> one way or the other.
Both Russell Shaw and Enzo Piccone are "official" scientologists, if
by "official" you mean acknowledged members of the organization.
But I guess they don't count, for some unknown reason of yours.
>> I find your use of Lisa McPherson's memory in this manner highly
>> offensive. I hope you (and others) stop "waving the bloody flag"
>> every time the mission and motives of the LMT are questioned. It
>> smacks of the same fanaticism as anti-abortionists shoving color
>> photos of fetuses in the faces of women entering abortion clinics.
>
> Fanaticism is in the eye of the beholder.
I find people who display aborted fetuses in jars of formaldehyde in
front of abortion clinics fanatics. I also find people who trot out a
corpse at even inopportune moments fanatics too. Both are equally
distasteful.
>> Please stop it.
>
> I'm afraid I won't. Sorry.
Neither will the anti-abortion fanatics.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Diane Richardson
>Diane Richardson wrote:
>>
>> On 30 Dec 1999 19:30:37 GMT, Keith Henson
>> <hkhe...@netcom8.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >An understanding of infectious insanity (which in the extreme results in
>> >such things as Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple) might lead to policies
>> >where a person could be taken into temporary custody for social
>> >reorientation based on the recommendation of relatives and friends applying
>> >to a judge.
>>
>> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
>> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
>> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
>> comment.
>>
>> Diane Richardson
>> ref...@bway.net
>
>There certainly is, if the courts are anything to go by. The three black
>men who whomped on the trucker during the LA riots were found to be not
>guilty of murder because it was held that they were under the influence
>of a 'mob mentality' and so could not be considered responsible.
>
>Call it what you will, the phenomenon exists.
Hey, coming from someone who considers Bob Minton to be a perfect
gentleman, I guess whatever's true for you must be true for you.
I doubt if the courts agree with your version of the truth, however.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Diane Richardson
<cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In article <386e13ba...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
>wrote:
>
>> On 30 Dec 1999 19:30:37 GMT, Keith Henson
>> <hkhe...@netcom8.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >An understanding of infectious insanity (which in the extreme results in
>> >such things as Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple) might lead to policies
>> >where a person could be taken into temporary custody for social
>> >reorientation based on the recommendation of relatives and friends
>> >applying
>> >to a judge.
>>
>> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
>> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
>> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
>> comment.
>
> You've never been to a football game, have you?
I've been to many football games. I've never witnessed anything
remotely like 'infectious insanity' at any of them.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Rebecca Hartong
"Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
news:cptnerd-D006ED...@news2.lightlink.com...
> I believe many people cooperated in holding her against her will,
> that these people abused her, and ultimately killed her. That no
> one of them said "this is wrong" or "she needs a doctor" or tried
> in any way to stop what was happening indicates that no one involved
> thought what they were doing was wrong. Whether this is "standard
> tech" for someone leaving is moot, it was standard enough for no
> one to try to do something different when what they were doing
> failed.
The thing is though, Cap, that when people do nothing in these kinds of
tragedies it's not at all necessarily because they don't think anything bad
is happening. This kind of behavior is alarmingly common and has been much
studied by social psychologists. It's called the "bystander effect." I wrote
something about this here on a.r.s. a month or so ago. I wrote:
"I think it's more likely that Lisa died because each individual involved in
her "care" assumed someone else would take responsibility for her. This
behavior has been well-researched by social psychologists-- it's called "the
bystander effect." As the number of people present in a crisis situation
increases, the likelihood of any of them helping actually decreases. There
are a number of reasons for this:
"Diffusion of responsibility: the more witnesses there are, the less
individual responsibility a person will feel.
"Interpretation: behavior of bystanders can influence how we interpret a
situation.
"Evaluation apprehension: Fear evaluation of others (did the wrong thing -
overreacted)
"Behavior of this kind isn't peculiar to Scientologists."
Frederic L. Rice
ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
> whatsoever. Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
> something he is obviously clueless about? Makes you go "Hmmm?
> What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
> purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
> fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
> make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
> big bucks. I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
> other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
>
> Ace
What is the point? Mr. Minton's Foundation is a FOR-PROFIT company.
"I think therefore I am."
Visit my website at
http://www. Sorry, under construction - come back later.
Safe ... www.fza.org
news:84lun0$jpt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
> ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
> > Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
> > Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
> > whatsoever. Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
> > something he is obviously clueless about? Makes you go "Hmmm?
> > What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
> > purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
> > fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
> > make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
> > big bucks. I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
> > other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
> >
> > Ace
>
> What is the point? Mr. Minton's Foundation is a FOR-PROFIT company.
You must be from the "church." You're representing something when you're not
it. In this case, you pretend to be Frederic Rice. Is this your "covert" way
to discredit him and what he really represents. Do you really think you're
being sneaky and fooling people?
Why don't you please stop your fraud, ok?
Safe
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <386e5a2c...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:27:21 -0500, Captain Nerd
> <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
> >
> > I believe many people cooperated in holding her against her will,
> > that these people abused her, and ultimately killed her. That no
> > one of them said "this is wrong" or "she needs a doctor" or tried
> > in any way to stop what was happening indicates that no one involved
> > thought what they were doing was wrong.
>
> I agree with you.
That is wise. 8-)
> > Whether this is "standard
> > tech" for someone leaving is moot, it was standard enough for no
> > one to try to do something different when what they were doing
> > failed.
>
> It's not moot at all. It was the specific point which you were
> addressing. Ace stated that the majority of Sea Org personnel who
> leave do not leave the CoS. You replied, "Tell that to Lisa
> McPherson." Lisa McPherson was not a member of the Sea Org at the
> time of her death. You gratuitously threw in Lisa McPherson's name
> for lack of a rational rejoinder.
Ace stated, and I paraphrase, "anyone can leave Flag at any time."
I gave an example of someone deliberately not allowed to leave
Flag. Ace then created the "public vs Sea Org" difference.
My refutation of his earlier statement stands, because of my
"irrational rejoinder."
Your choice to dislike my example is, of course, not surprising.
> >> I don't think what happened to Lisa McPherson is typical of what
> >> happens to scientologists who decide to leave the CoS. Rather, I
> >> think what happened to her was a tragic error; something that's deeply
> >> regretted by both critics and scientologists alike.
> >
> > I have heard little in the way of remorse from official
> > scientologists. Russell Shaw and I think Enzo Picone have
> > expressed regret, but none of the "sock puppets" will respond
> > one way or the other.
>
> Both Russell Shaw and Enzo Piccone are "official" scientologists, if
> by "official" you mean acknowledged members of the organization.
> But I guess they don't count, for some unknown reason of yours.
Both Russell and Enzo have stated specifically that they do not
post here in an official capacity, therefore they are not "official"
scientologists. Others, such as the groups of posters using
the accounts "wg...@loop.com" "news2002" "sffancier", "dorothy_west"
et.al., have done little more than post legal documents, and
repeated the "party line" with respect to the critics and other
"enemies" of scientology. That's why I call them "official"
scientologists.
Again, that you dislike this usage is unsurprising.
> >> I find your use of Lisa McPherson's memory in this manner highly
> >> offensive. I hope you (and others) stop "waving the bloody flag"
> >> every time the mission and motives of the LMT are questioned. It
> >> smacks of the same fanaticism as anti-abortionists shoving color
> >> photos of fetuses in the faces of women entering abortion clinics.
> >
> > Fanaticism is in the eye of the beholder.
>
> I find people who display aborted fetuses in jars of formaldehyde in
> front of abortion clinics fanatics. I also find people who trot out a
> corpse at even inopportune moments fanatics too. Both are equally
> distasteful.
What happens to aborted unborn children is ugly, and many people
sleep better not being reminded of it. Just as many scientologists
sleep better not knowing unpleasant truths about their chosen
"church."
Those who like to sleep soundly often call the ones trying to
disturb their sleep "fanatics" or "suppressives" or some other
disparagement.
> >> Please stop it.
> >
> > I'm afraid I won't. Sorry.
>
> Neither will the anti-abortion fanatics.
I have no control over them. I only have control over myself.
If it is painful for someone to be reminded of a preventable
tragedy, caused by deliberate, officially approved abuse, then
let it cause pain. As a Christian, I am constantly reminded
by non- and anti-Christians here and elsewhere of the abuses
that were perpetrated in the name of my church. If being so
reminded leads me to try to prevent such abuses now and in
the future, whereever I am able, then it's worth the cost of
discomfort.
That you declare my methods "fanatical" is once more, unsurprising.
But you see, my dear, I am a clown, and hence inured to the
stings and nettles of criticism. Thus I pratfall my way
out of this gag, and skip merrily away wearing my big, floppy
"fanatic" hat. That you will no doubt call me other names
in an attempt to score points against me is good, as long as
you enjoy yourself. I think the current score is 35 to bleen.
Cap.
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Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <386e5ef9...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:28:16 -0500, Captain Nerd
> <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>
> >> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
> >> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
> >> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
> >> comment.
> >
> > You've never been to a football game, have you?
>
> I've been to many football games. I've never witnessed anything
> remotely like 'infectious insanity' at any of them.
Well, that's fascinating. I've never been to a football
game with calm, well-behaved fans. Where do these
"rational fanatics" hang out?
Cap.
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Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <84lmu...@enews4.newsguy.com>, "Rebecca Hartong"
<Praet...@mgfairfax.rr.com> wrote:
> "Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
> news:cptnerd-D006ED...@news2.lightlink.com...
>
> > I believe many people cooperated in holding her against her will,
> > that these people abused her, and ultimately killed her. That no
> > one of them said "this is wrong" or "she needs a doctor" or tried
> > in any way to stop what was happening indicates that no one involved
> > thought what they were doing was wrong. Whether this is "standard
> > tech" for someone leaving is moot, it was standard enough for no
> > one to try to do something different when what they were doing
> > failed.
>
> The thing is though, Cap, that when people do nothing in these kinds of
> tragedies it's not at all necessarily because they don't think anything
> bad is happening.
I will acknowledge the possibility. I will assign my own probability,
however.
> a month or so ago. I wrote:
>
> "I think it's more likely that Lisa died because each individual involved
> in
> her "care" assumed someone else would take responsibility for her. This
> behavior has been well-researched by social psychologists-- it's called
> "the
> bystander effect." As the number of people present in a crisis situation
> increases, the likelihood of any of them helping actually decreases.
> There
> are a number of reasons for this:
>
> "Diffusion of responsibility: the more witnesses there are, the less
> individual responsibility a person will feel.
>
> "Interpretation: behavior of bystanders can influence how we interpret a
> situation.
>
> "Evaluation apprehension: Fear evaluation of others (did the wrong thing
> -
> overreacted)
>
> "Behavior of this kind isn't peculiar to Scientologists."
This is true. The matter of opinion arises as to whether or
not one believes that scientology encourages or facilitates
this behavior.
Cap.
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=0jMn
Jim Byrd
wrote:
>In article <19991230011303...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
> ace614...@aol.com (Ace614575216) wrote:
>
>> Perhaps the most glaring out-point in the entire scene is that
>> Minton demonstrates absolutely no understanding of Scientology
>> whatsoever. Why would he spend this kind of money fighting
>> something he is obviously clueless about? Makes you go "Hmmm?
>> What is this guy really up to?" My best guess is that the real
>> purpose of the trust, (at least from Bob's point of view) and in
>> fact the purpose of all of Minton's anti-Scientology activity is to
>> make such a nuisance of himself that C of S buys him off for
>> big bucks. I don't doubt, on the other hand, that many of the
>> other players are quite sincere in their beliefs and efforts.
>>
>> Ace
>
>What is the point? Mr. Minton's Foundation is a FOR-PROFIT company.
>
>"I think therefore I am."
>Visit my website at
>http://www. Sorry, under construction - come back later.
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
ANOTHER FORGERY, *not* from Frederic Rice
Lronscam
<386ed0a5...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net stated"
>
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 19:52:09 -0500, Captain Nerd
><cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:28:16 -0500, Captain Nerd
>>> <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
>>> >> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
>>> >> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
>>> >> comment.
>>> >
>>> > You've never been to a football game, have you?
>>>
>>> I've been to many football games. I've never witnessed anything
>>> remotely like 'infectious insanity' at any of them.
>>
>> Well, that's fascinating. I've never been to a football
>> game with calm, well-behaved fans. Where do these
>> "rational fanatics" hang out?
>
>'infectious insanity,' a term our resident pseudoscientist H. Keith
>Henson appears to have coined to justify one of his current biases.
>
>There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' Mental illness is
>not a communicable disease.
Mental Illness is not communicable? Then how does one explain how one passes
their genes on to their siblings? Perhaps you meant that mental illness is not a
disease of cantagion.
Comparing football fans to the mentally
>ill does a disservice to both the mentally ill and football fans.
>
>Diane Richardson
>ref...@bway.net
>
Diane Richardson
<cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In article <386e5ef9...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
>wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:28:16 -0500, Captain Nerd
>> <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
>> >> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
>> >> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
>> >> comment.
>> >
>> > You've never been to a football game, have you?
>>
>> I've been to many football games. I've never witnessed anything
>> remotely like 'infectious insanity' at any of them.
>
> Well, that's fascinating. I've never been to a football
> game with calm, well-behaved fans. Where do these
> "rational fanatics" hang out?
You said nothing about 'rational fanatics.' You were speaking of
'infectious insanity,' a term our resident pseudoscientist H. Keith
Henson appears to have coined to justify one of his current biases.
There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' Mental illness is
not a communicable disease. Comparing football fans to the mentally
Captain Nerd
Hash: SHA1
In article <386ed0a5...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
wrote:
Well, you've asserted it, so it must be true. Who am I to argue
with that?
Cap.
(You've obviously gone to football games in warm climates, or
else you wouldn't call someone who paints their body, strips to
shorts and no shirt, and cavorts in below-zero Farenheit weather
for hours, sane.)
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Diane Richardson
wrote:
>"On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 04:17:22 GMT, in article
><386ed0a5...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net stated"
>>
>>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 19:52:09 -0500, Captain Nerd
>><cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>>
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>In article <386e5ef9...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:28:16 -0500, Captain Nerd
>>>> <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' I realize you have a
>>>> >> penchant for inventing 'scientific facts' when you need them to
>>>> >> justify your own biases, but I cannot let this one pass without
>>>> >> comment.
>>>> >
>>>> > You've never been to a football game, have you?
>>>>
>>>> I've been to many football games. I've never witnessed anything
>>>> remotely like 'infectious insanity' at any of them.
>>>
>>> Well, that's fascinating. I've never been to a football
>>> game with calm, well-behaved fans. Where do these
>>> "rational fanatics" hang out?
>>
>>You said nothing about 'rational fanatics.' You were speaking of
>>'infectious insanity,' a term our resident pseudoscientist H. Keith
>>Henson appears to have coined to justify one of his current biases.
>>
>>There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' Mental illness is
>>not a communicable disease.
>
>Mental Illness is not communicable?
I'd suggest you look up "communicable disease" in any medical
dictionary, LRonscam.
>Then how does one explain how one passes
>their genes on to their siblings? Perhaps you meant that mental illness is not a
>disease of cantagion.
If you knew what the term "communicable disease" meant, you wouldn't
be asking this.
>
>
> Comparing football fans to the mentally
>>ill does a disservice to both the mentally ill and football fans.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
Keith Henson
> In article <386ed0a5...@enews.newsguy.com>, ref...@bway.net
> wrote:
snip
>> There is no such thing as 'infectious insanity.' Mental illness is
>> not a communicable disease.
I rather imagine this is an issue of terminology. I doubt we disagree on
what happened to the people in the Heaven's Gate cult. Perhaps you could
suggest a more technical term than "infectious insanity" to describe what
induced those people to kill themselves. I would, for example, go along
with the term "communicated and shared delusional state" as an alternative
to "infectious insanity."
Thirty people committing suicide in the same way at the same time
*without* some common communicated influence is, I think, more remarkable
than the concept of "infectious insanity."
Or perhaps you consider the Heaven's Gate members sane?
Keith Henson
Steve Zadarnowski
>Yes, produce the logs of all the other incarcerations of all the other
>$cientologists and see how atypical Lisa's incarceration was.
>Otherwise acknowledge that Lisa's handling was standard, right there
>in the bowels of the Mecca of Technical Perfection.
Only in the Golden Age of Tech can deaths of people in the care
of Scientology occur.
S
Diane Richardson
<hkhe...@netcom18.netcom.com> wrote:
Suicide pacts did not originate with Heaven's Gate or any other cult.
I doubt if I need to remind you of the occurrence of "suicide
epidemics" among teens in the same school to put that myth to rest.
I think you have a problem differentiating between 'rationality' and
'sanity,' Keith. For your information, the terms are not synonymous.
Mentally ill people are capable of acting rationally and sane people
are capable of acting irrationally. This is a common misconception,
but a misconception nonetheless.
I believe the Heaven's Gate members who committed suicide acted
irrationally. I do not know the mental health status of these people
at the time of death. The fact that they committed suicide is not an
indication of their mental health, only an indication of their
irrationality.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net