Why I left the Burned Fur (rant)
S.J.Laitila
to improve the fandom, and I believed in BF:s goals.
I was known as a moderate BF serving the truth...
After that, something hit me and I became pissed and
aggressive. I hated the fandom, and pointed it out
very clearly. I even made BOC leave the fandom again.
After a phase of fighting I realised, that I was my
only enemy and that made me reconsider my goals. I
searched for the truth from several sites, irc channels,
and message boards devoted to the groups BF were against.
The truth was, that these people weren't as evil as I
used to think. Many of them just couldn't spell... ;)
The solution for all the problems furry fandom was
encountering was to talk to the people, who possibly
wrecked the fandom's reputation, and to find a decision,
that would please the both sides. My first move was to
ask the BF:s to remove the manifesto, as it was offensive
and an obstacle for having any contact with the opposition.
Well, that didn't actually work out. I was accused of being
a pervert, weak, and a coward only because of my request. I
would never have expected the BF:s being rude to their own
members. I had no reason to believe in a group, where people
didn't respect any kind of diversity, as they first split
out from the fandom, and after that a group within them was
starting a fight similar to the one, that originally made
them to split. First, there was the BF:s and the others. Then
there was the moderates and the extremists. What's next?
Zealot extremists, and non-zealot extremists? That was, when
I decided to leave the BF:s. It just wasn't worth it anymore.
S.J.Laitila - Solo
Bahumat
I almost joined the Burned Fur once. Not because I hated anyone (I am a
proud, vocal supporter of all the furry fringe groups), but because I
firmly believe that furriness should be about just that; furriness. The
fringe groups can have their say, without needing to involve furriness
in it. It's sad that the Burned Furs are so extreme in their views. I
would have joined, but they were simply too intolerant, and would not
make compromises.
I won't say that you made 'the' right choice. You made 'a' right choice
for yourself. For others, it would not be their choice. But I'm glad you
made the choice you did.
And before I get flamed out: Let me state again, I PROUDLY and VOCALLY
support ALL of the so-called 'fringe elements' of furrydom. I just don't
always agree that furriness should be involved, even if it is an element
of said fringe elements.
Bahumat
Farlo
>My first move was to
>ask the BF:s to remove the manifesto.
>Well, that didn't actually work out. I was accused of being
>a pervert, weak, and a coward only because of my request. I
>would never have expected the BF:s being rude to their own
>members.
I suspected that the BF would eat their own, and sadly, I was not
disappointed. This is not the first person to whom they have given this
treatment.
Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
Ditch the angst and the anger, work on making a positive difference.
There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to improve the fandom, if you
are sincere and positive in your outlook. BF always just came off to me as
angry, intolerant and unable to cope with other lifestyles. They were far
too negative. Learn from their mistakes, and form a group that accentuates
the positive.
Make the best out of the people you meet, and they in turn will usually
offer you their best. Expect the best, develop it in others.
--
Farlo
Urban fey dragon
"Yes, my e-mail address is valid. It just doesn't look valid."
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
[...]
>Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
I think some people have grown tired of groups. At the begining and
at the end, we are individuals, people take actions not groups. I
think first people should work on makeing a postive diffrence. Leave
the politics to the politicians.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Farlo
>On 21 Aug 1999 13:36:33 GMT, Farlo <spam...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
>
>I think some people have grown tired of groups. At the begining and
>at the end, we are individuals, people take actions not groups. I
>think first people should work on makeing a postive diffrence. Leave
>the politics to the politicians.
Well said.
The Lupra'nite
*snip*
S.J.Laitila - Solo
Nice rant :)
Like Farlo said, you are not the first person I have seen either leave the
group. I am not condoning nor jumping down anyone's throat. I just
don't give any group the time of day anymore, and ignore the infighting.
When life SHOULD be above furry gets too convoluded and fucked up
one needs to re-examine their priorities and go from there. Making
furry a 'life goal' is stupid. I may be called hippocritical for that, but I
don't
give a flying. I realized that as long as I support FURRY with FURRY
themed stuff, and keep what I am in my own personal life out of it, then
I got no problems with anyone else.
Detramental elements like SqueeRats suicide notes at Anthrcon were
stupid, and downright funny. The only person it hurts is those who created
them and distributed them. I was mad at first, then laughed, and just
shrugged it off then went about my way.
The Burned Furs, Peace furs, and non-aligned (which is VERY
oxymoronic in and of itself) will all die out and fade eventually. One of
the only groups I see hanging around is the FurPride. Evedently for
some reason I can't seem to get into the furpride site, as I also remember
as component backing or within the BF's that wanted to send a virus
to the FP webring. Pecuilar, if I must say. Simply, if there is one thing
that is always goign to be evident, is that furs are straight, gay, lesbian
and defiantly INTOLOERANT. That is what makes this little familly SO
close knit. We have our little squabblings with each other, our next of
kin fights, so ot speak. All in all, we like anthro stuff.
Like Xydexx always says, its about furry and anthropomorphics.
Why make it a goal in life to sell prints, to make money from it? I may be
critisized for it, but fuck. I am not a bad artist, nor am I a Nakira, Terrie
Smitch or Karabiner. I enjoy my work, but don't try to make a buck at it
like some people do. Do it for the fun, for the ejoyment of doing it,
not to be a sell-out. If you don't do anything but make a profit from that
then I don't see how you can 'love' the fandom, rather then 'loving' the
all mighty dollar.
Sorry, but I just felt that I needed to get a rant off my chest as well.
I PERSONALLY am tired not of the spitefull little fringe movements for the
fandom, I am annoyed with the outright comericalism of money that seems
to be held within the fandom. It's not about money, its about artwork, its
about FURRY.
Okay.. don't hold back as I didn't either. I could care less anymore, as
words are just words, and my voice don't mean squat.
--
The Luphra'nite
We should police ourselves, as we are our own best censors.
http://come.to/another-reality (if it will work)
Al Goldman
>>S.J.Laitila wrote:
(confidential to S.J. - see the way I copied the names of the people I quoted?
please do this in your postings. Otherwise, we don't know who your replying to)
>> I was accused of being
>>a pervert, weak, and a coward only because of my request. I
>>would never have expected the BF:s being rude to their own
>>members.
>I suspected that the BF would eat their own, and sadly, I was not
>disappointed. This is not the first person to whom they have given this
>treatment.
What doomed the movement from the start was Blumrich's obsession with
fascist retoric and imagery. The picture of the man with the plush rabbit about
to be shot in the back of the head by a Nazi and all that "save the fandom or
destroy it and build on the ashes" retoric became a kind of litmus test -
Blumrich's way or the highway, No compromises and no prisoners.
As I said back then, the whole movement has become Blumrich's fascist joke.
>There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to improve the fandom, if you
>are sincere and positive in your outlook. BF always just came off to me as
>angry, intolerant and unable to cope with other lifestyles. They were far
>too negative. Learn from their mistakes, and form a group that accentuates
>the positive.
I think the fandom is too broad for a group to support everything. Just
support the things you like and ignore the rest, leaving these things to rise
or fall on there own merit.
A fandom with no single identity - full of people who can say "I'm not into
that" and quickly move there efforts back to what they enjoy, will survive and
grow due the strength of the individual elements.
Al Goldman
>Farlo
>>S.J.Laitila
P.S. What ever happened to the BF forum of Dejanews.com? I went looking for it
and could not find it.
I don't know what's weirder - That you're fighting a stuffed animial, or that
you seem to be losing. - Calvin and Hobbes
Forrest
S.J.Laitila <s...@saunalahti.fi.spamcomnot> wrote:
>a pervert, weak, and a coward only because of my request. I
>would never have expected the BF:s being rude to their own
>members.
1) whether the majority of them even saw your request is an open question
2) itemize, please, precisely who called you those things
and to satisfy my own curiosity
3) clarify, please, why you made the request as "Black#1" rather than as
S.J.Laitila
Forrest
Al Goldman <allan...@aol.comspNARFam> wrote
> all that "save the fandom or
> destroy it and build on the ashes" retoric became a kind of litmus test -
> Blumrich's way or the highway, No compromises and no prisoners.
Really?
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=510886641
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=514915061
kill
expressing my concerns over the factionalism in furry fandom and was flamed
to high heaven for simply expressing my opinion! The webmaster flamed me for
wanting to have furry fandom be respectable again and also for even deigning
to contact them at all. I mean Burned Furs can be a little extreme, but the
alternatives are downright scary!
Kill
Bahumat wrote in message <37BE8E72...@spamisevil.telusplanet.com>...
>*Bahumat applauds politely.*
>
>I almost joined the Burned Fur once. Not because I hated anyone (I am a
>proud, vocal supporter of all the furry fringe groups), but because I
>firmly believe that furriness should be about just that; furriness. The
>fringe groups can have their say, without needing to involve furriness
>in it. It's sad that the Burned Furs are so extreme in their views. I
>would have joined, but they were simply too intolerant, and would not
>make compromises.
>
>I won't say that you made 'the' right choice. You made 'a' right choice
>for yourself. For others, it would not be their choice. But I'm glad you
>made the choice you did.
>
>And before I get flamed out: Let me state again, I PROUDLY and VOCALLY
>support ALL of the so-called 'fringe elements' of furrydom. I just don't
>always agree that furriness should be involved, even if it is an element
>of said fringe elements.
>
>Bahumat
>
S.J.Laitila
>proud, vocal supporter of all the furry fringe groups), but because I
>firmly believe that furriness should be about just that; furriness. The
>fringe groups can have their say, without needing to involve furriness
>in it. It's sad that the Burned Furs are so extreme in their views. I
>would have joined, but they were simply too intolerant, and would not
>make compromises.
That's what I had to notice, but unfortunately too late... And another
thing I had to notice, was myself belonging in one of those fringe
groups. That's why I'm giving all fringe groups my full support.
And, about all those great artists leaving, because of all the "pervs".
Leaving is never a good idea, showing friendship, and thinking about
all the good things in the fandom.
>I won't say that you made 'the' right choice. You made 'a' right choice
>for yourself. For others, it would not be their choice. But I'm glad you
>made the choice you did.
I'm glad too... I somehow feel more free.
>And before I get flamed out: Let me state again, I PROUDLY and VOCALLY
>support ALL of the so-called 'fringe elements' of furrydom. I just don't
>always agree that furriness should be involved, even if it is an element
>of said fringe elements.
Agreed.
S.J.Laitila
>disappointed. This is not the first person to whom they have given >this treatment.
I was naive and hopeful, when I joined. I guess I deserved
this...
>Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
>Ditch the angst and the anger, work on making a positive difference.
I think there is hope in Furry Peace... It should just become
a little more active.
>There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to improve the fandom, >if you are sincere and
positive in your outlook. BF always just came >off to me as angry, intolerant and unable to cope
with other >lifestyles. They were far too negative. Learn from their mistakes, >and form a group
that accentuates the positive.
I know I'm in the opposition now. I'll talk more about this with
X... He's been talking about something in that direction.
>Make the best out of the people you meet, and they in turn will >usually offer you their best.
Expect the best, develop it in others.
Luckily I'm not the only one who noticed, that there was a lot
of hate in BF, and it became impossible to work with its
members when achieving their own goals. Luckily I'm not alone,
when facing this decision... Dar Thornton also had to make the
same decision.
Forrest
Farlo <spam...@pacbell.net> wrote :
>>1) whether the majority of them even saw your request is an open question
>
Because the statements read like blanket commentary on the entire membership
based on the statements of two people out of fifty-seven.
> >2) itemize, please, precisely who called you those things
Those persons were, apparently, Dan Flahive and "Snowdog". Flahive's
message contains the "perv" suggestion, specifically by implying that anyone
who thinks that the Squee Manifesto should be de-emphasised or removed must
be one of the (in Flahive's opinion appalling) people it criticises.
This suggestion is fallacious, a blatant smear, and an embarrassment to
Flahive.
Snowdog's comment is to the effect that "If you can't stand for what is
right, regardless of how unpopular it makes you, then I really pity your
lack of the courage of your convictions."
This also is fallacious by virtue of equating the Squee Manifesto with "what
is right" (even though it, for example, condemns vegans, who I consider to
be -more- moral, not less, than most people (self included)) and reflects
more on Snowdog than on S.J. Laitila.
> > and to satisfy my own curiosity
>
> Satisfy Forrests' idle curiosity? What does SJL get out of this?
The opportunity to clarify an ambiguous and problematic situation. A
controversial suggestion will get different responses depending on who it
comes from; an effectively anonymous posting to any forum will probably not
get as thoughtful a reaction as the same posting from a known source. There
are no other current posts under the name "Black#1" on the BF message board;
I did not recognize it, and yes, the thought "troll?" did cross my mind. Mea
culpa.
S.J.Laitila
Whether the majority of them even cared.
>2) itemize, please, precisely who called you those things
> and to satisfy my own curiosity
Dan Flahive, and Moondog.
>3) clarify, please, why you made the request as "Black#1" rather than >as S.J.Laitila
People on Yiffnet and FM know me as Black#1. I was hoping the BF:s
would too.
Farlo
>I was naive and hopeful, when I joined. I guess I deserved
>this...
The important part is that you (SJL) now have an experience that will help
you avoid similar individuals and organizations like that in the future.
You are now less naive - but don't lose hope.
Farlo
>S.J.Laitila <s...@saunalahti.fi.spamcomnot> wrote:
>>a pervert, weak, and a coward only because of my request. I
>>would never have expected the BF:s being rude to their own
>>members.
>
>1) whether the majority of them even saw your request is an open question
Why would this be relevant?
>2) itemize, please, precisely who called you those things
> and to satisfy my own curiosity
Satisfy Forrests' idle curiosity? What does SJL get out of this?
>3) clarify, please, why you made the request as "Black#1" rather than as
>S.J.Laitila
Allow me to state the friggin' obvious:
SJL has been using that alias for weeks.
TygerMoon Foxx
> Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
> Ditch the angst and the anger, work on making a positive difference.
>
There are already several out there. Furry Peace and its associated
organizations (one of which supports furry gays and another of which promotes
diversity and tolerance) does an excellent job of working toward improving the
fandom through communication. The Unaligned Furs also does a fair job but
loses something in that declaring themselves unaligned they have to be
_against_ something on each side of the fence. Their main declaration appears
to be "we just don't care" which I don't think is the way to go either.
Blessed Be,
TygerMoon Foxx
ICQ #8393998
Moonlight Sonata's Wicker Basket http://www.FurNation.com/MSonata
TygerMoon Foxx's Den http://www.crosswinds.net/~tygermoon
----------------------------------------------------------------
I am darkness and light, the shadow hunter and king of the sun.
My claws hold the earth, my tongue tastes the sky.
I am steadfast and strong, compassionate and caring.
I am tiger, and my words are pure.
----------------------------------------------------------------
S.J.Laitila
>last thing this fandom needs is another splinter group. :P
It's more fun to think about all the good things in the fandom.
><Smokey Bear pose> Only YOU can improve Furry Fandom's image. </Smokey Bear
>pose>
And care less about the right-wing mundanes' opinion. Most of those people,
who attack furries are homophobes too.
S.J.Laitila
>you avoid similar individuals and organizations like that in the future.
>You are now less naive - but don't lose hope.
JD said in the beginning, that we Finns are better off alone.
S.J.Laitila
>based on the statements of two people out of fifty-seven.
Have you ever thought how many of them even think of themselves as Burned
Furs anymore? If they just weren't interested enough to remove their
membership.
>Those persons were, apparently, Dan Flahive and "Snowdog". Flahive's
>message contains the "perv" suggestion, specifically by implying that anyone
>who thinks that the Squee Manifesto should be de-emphasised or removed must
>be one of the (in Flahive's opinion appalling) people it criticises.
>This suggestion is fallacious, a blatant smear, and an embarrassment to
>Flahive.
Am I wrong, but didn't he tell, how long he's been in the fandom, and
what an important person he is to it? I'm pretty fed up with people,
who are telling others, that their opinions are worthless, because
they haven't been in the fandom for 15 years. Very appealing for new
furries...
>Snowdog's comment is to the effect that "If you can't stand for what is
>right, regardless of how unpopular it makes you, then I really pity your
>lack of the courage of your convictions."
>This also is fallacious by virtue of equating the Squee Manifesto with "what
>is right" (even though it, for example, condemns vegans, who I consider to
>be -more- moral, not less, than most people (self included)) and reflects
>more on Snowdog than on S.J. Laitila.
That is true, but why did he say it in the first place, if I had said,
that I wanted the manifesto removed?
>The opportunity to clarify an ambiguous and problematic situation. A
>controversial suggestion will get different responses depending on who it
>comes from; an effectively anonymous posting to any forum will probably not
>get as thoughtful a reaction as the same posting from a known source. There
>are no other current posts under the name "Black#1" on the BF message board;
>I did not recognize it, and yes, the thought "troll?" did cross my mind. Mea
>culpa.
Would a troll ask for any opinions in his message? It was an request postedx
in a polite way. I think the troll paranoia, that many furry fans are having
is somehow irrational.
And, even if these accusations are based on slight inperception, I have to
point out the rudeness involved. And that is just the smallest of the
reasons, why I left BF. There are more, but they're not meant for the
public's ears.
Farlo
>Farlo <spam...@pacbell.net> wrote :
>>>1) whether the majority of them even saw your request is an open
>>>question
>>
>>Why would this be relevant?
>
>Because the statements read like blanket commentary on the entire
>membership based on the statements of two people out of fifty-seven.
Your own commentary is a statement of one person out of fifty-seven. I
must balance your opinion versus the opinion of SJL, Dar Thorton and two
others. Reasonably, it is hard to give your claim as much credence as
the opinion of three other BF former members.
Farlo
There are many good people in the world, just keep looking.
Farlo
>Would a troll ask for any opinions in his message? It was an request
>postedx in a polite way. I think the troll paranoia, that many furry
>fans are having is somehow irrational.
You've been using that alias (Black#1) for weeks in a forum that Forrest
reads on a regular basis. His claim of "troll" is further weakened by the
fact that you always post from the same ISP. It's how I have been
filtering your posts. Forrest acknowledged his mistake, but it seems
hollow to me for these reasons.
Ben Bruin
document that was heard 'round the world. It was loud, it was direct,
it pulled no punches, and it openly insulted the monarchy of the time..
in rather direct terms, too. It listed crimes and it named names, and
rest assured the language used caused fits of howling outrage amongst
the ruling class of that time.
Now, centuries after the revolution was declared, fought, and won, that
document sits in a place of honor in American history-- written in
every history book, openly displayed in our nation's capitol. Great
Britain and America are allies now, and on the best of terms.
Should we open up the display case, pull out the white-out, and retouch
that document, because it might offend any British citizens or British
nobility that visit our country?
Or perhaps we should hide it under a table when they come walking
through?
Comparing the Manifesto to the Declaration of Independence is, of
course, hyperbole. Compared to the struggle between tyranny and
democracy, the political wrestlings of a fandom over issues of ethics
and mores is less than a tenth of nothing. I use the simile because it
is the only one both well known and comparable to the situation with
the Burned Fur manifesto.
Of course the Manifesto is rude-- declarations of independence, whether
from a country, or from a perverse and degraded "culture of
acceptance", are by nature offensive. The Declaration of Independence,
as I stated earlier, listed sins and named names. And, in the terms of
that age, was written in incredibly inflammatory language. Its purpose
was to elicit open statements of agreement, to voice aloud what people
had heretofore only grumbled under their breaths... to give the
discontented and disaffected a unifying statement that they could point
to when their own eloquence failed-- and when other, milder "mission
statements" did not state fully enough the extent of their displeasure.
Any watering down of such a declaration-- or embarrassed shuffling of
the statement to the bottom of the pile, safely out of sight-- renders
it impotent, and justifiably calls into question the level of
commitment the would-be "re-editor" posesses for the original spirit of
the movement. You don't tell the status qou "ruling class" that you're
going to fight them, and then apologize for the language you used when
you first made your declaration.
THe Burned Fur movement is, at root, an effort to demand that a
standard of acceptable ethical and moral behavior within the fandom be
set and held. That things that are NOT a part of anthropomorphic
fandom, that are of dubious or blatant moral and legal questionability
NOT be associated with the fandom at large. That people in the fandom
act with some semblance of restraint, and that when they are out
wearing the label "furry" that they leave their sexual fetishes,
sociopolitical motivations, religious/neoreligious leanings, kinky
toys, freaky habits and bizarre personal behavior out of the equation,
and that they do not attempt to establish a conceptual link between the
fandom and their non-fandom "quirks".
Instead of addressing the issues, most of the opposition's efforts --
yes, the OPPOSITION-- have been concentrated on complaining about the
"mean words" used in the manifesto, and by some of the more flameish
posts by BF members. Yes, the phrasing of the Manifesto is hard, cruel,
and unfriendly. Unfortunately, the accusations of the manifesto are
also TRUE.... which is what we SHOULD be addressing. Instead we have
bickering over the fact that the BFs, who have already stated that they
want unacceptable things disassociated from the fandom, have used
language that isn't warm, friendly and ACCEPTING in stating that goal.
It's preposterous. Griping about harsh language on the net is like a
fish griping about water. The manifesto remains. Why? Because it
serves its intended purpose-- to spark debate over a PC silenced issue,
to serve as a reminder of the moral objections, personal embarrasments,
and yes, ANGER people feel over the issues it addresses... and to
vocalize the attitudes that were before only grumbled under our breaths.
In short, to whizz people off.
Even at this late date, people are still finding the manifesto, reading
it, and saying "H**L YES ! About time someone said this !" The
revolution is far from over... this is only the opening salvo. People
are still deciding where they fall on the issues.
The Manifesto is what has drawn all the BFs togethor, and continues to
draw new members. It IS the seed that started the movement, and around
which all of the movement has aggregated. It is not, as such, the
bedrock policy of the movement, nor the deciding "doctrine"-- any more
than the Declaration of Independence is the total embodiement of
American government. But yanking it out would undermine the spirit of
the movement it was instrumental in starting.
--
Two rules:
1)never stand behind a cow......
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Paul R. Bennett
from both (all) sides who are willing to sit down and discuss their views with each other,
privately. Keep the public egos out of it and keep it low key and non-confrontational. This place
is composed of individuals "Lifestyler", "Burned Fur", or "Non". They are all individuals and
hardly to be easily described with one label. After the last few years anything has got to work
better than this.
Paul
S.J.Laitila wrote:
> >I suspected that the BF would eat their own, and sadly, I was not
> >disappointed. This is not the first person to whom they have given >this treatment.
>
> I was naive and hopeful, when I joined. I guess I deserved
> this...
>
> >Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
> >Ditch the angst and the anger, work on making a positive difference.
>
Kai Robinson
manifesto is a good idea.
But I'm still not convinced that leaving it up isn't a bad idea.
As a fan of four years, I've seen a lot of things come and go, but there's
still a great deal I don't know. My guess is that those who have been in
the fandom for a very long time, those who have experienced first-hand the
horrors documented in the manifesto, and those whose lives have been
detrimented because of it, are but a small handful. There are many more
fans, I believe, who may have had a brush with one of these "deviants," and
then rushed out to join the movement without seeing the big picture. And
that's why you're seeing people leaving the movement now.
The internet is not a democracy. It's good to express your opinions and
stick to them, but repeating them over and over and hoping things are going
to get better rarely works. You'd have thought that the movement would have
learned that by now. I knew it was a bad sign when Blumrich kept bragging
about how many members were in the BF webring, as if that were any kind of
measure of success.
The manifesto is good for the reasons you state. But my hope is that BF
will have enough to stand on its own without the manifesto. When that
happens, I think you'll start to see a more steady increase in BF's
membership. And if that helps the fandom as a whole, then it's definitely
worth it.
-Kai Robinson
*boing*
DawnWolf
>Hey, you should try Frozen Furs. Now those Nazis are crazy! I e-mailed them,
>expressing my concerns over the factionalism in furry fandom and was flamed
>to high heaven for simply expressing my opinion! The webmaster flamed me for
>wanting to have furry fandom be respectable again and also for even deigning
>to contact them at all. I mean Burned Furs can be a little extreme, but the
>alternatives are downright scary!
There is the Furry Peace movement. All it says is "Hey, can't we get
along?". Try www.fur.com/peace/ ... sure, it's nothing grand, the
message itself is pretty standard ... well, this time, hopefully
no-one is going to be nailed to a tree for saying "Let's be nice,
furs" :o)
DawnWolf
DawnWolf
>>Why not form a new group, dedicated to positive improvements?
>>Ditch the angst and the anger, work on making a positive difference.
>
>I think there is hope in Furry Peace... It should just become
>a little more active.
That will happen when individual members become active. There's no
leader, and that is good this way :o)
What kind of activity did you have in mind, kind fur?
DawnWuff
Farlo
[ROFL hyberbole snipped]
> The Manifesto is what has drawn all the BFs togethor, and continues to
>draw new members. It IS the seed that started the movement, and around
>which all of the movement has aggregated. But yanking it out would
undermine the spirit of
>the movement it was instrumental in starting.
The spirit of the BF is hate for your fellow fans?
Laughing at others with maximum cruelty?
That's not merely rude.
TygerMoon Foxx
I was not going to get into this discussion, as I have friends on both sides
of the issue. However, since some of the the things that define the fandom
for me and that I consider an integral part of the fandom are under attack
by the Burned Furs' manifesto, I feel I must say a few things.
Some of these people are, as I mentioned, my friends. One of them was kind
enough in spite of a busy schedule to take the time both to discuss his
involvement in Burned Furs and to help me with my artistry. As he explained
it to me, the original purpose of the group was to help set themselves apart
from the deviance, not destroy it, so that those working in the arts and
other creative industries would not be blacklisted for drawing/having drawn
furry art or for writing/having written furry themed works. This to me
makes sense. I have several friends who have had to give up their
involvement in furry fandom in order to pursue their careers as artists and
in animation.
This seems to me a practical goal. I mentioned in a previous post that
there are several things that I would prefer not to see associated with
furry fandom: spooge, pedophilia, bestiality, and excessive sex bing my
biggest peeves. However...
Ben Bruin wrote:
> Of course the Manifesto is rude-- declarations of independence, whether
> from a country, or from a perverse and degraded "culture of
> acceptance", are by nature offensive. The Declaration of Independence,
> as I stated earlier, listed sins and named names.
The difference being none of the things listed in the Declaration of
Independence were matters of personal moral choice. The specific issues in
the Declaration were right to self government and elimination of taxation
without representation. If the Burned Fur Manifesto said anything at all
about what has been talked about among my moderate friends: the desire to be
able to remain involved in the fandom and still apply for jobs in graphics
design, storyboarding, and animation without the stigma of being
automatically labeled a spooge artist, bestialist, or pedophile then I
would happily support it. However, the Manifesto as it stands is nothing
more than a bunch of name calling, posturing, and slurs. As far as I can
see, it states no specific goals or proposals that are not couched in
virulent hatred. The two pieces that Blumrich wrote which someone else
posted the URLs to would have made a much more suitable Manifesto. The
Burned Furs I met at Anthrocon were very nice, helpful people in spite of
the fact that I was obviously several things that the Manifesto speaks
against, including lifestyler and homosexual. They treated me with nothing
but courtesy.
> the movement. You don't tell the status qou "ruling class" that you're
> going to fight them, and then apologize for the language you used when
> you first made your declaration.
This is one of the biggest problems I have with the more radical Burned Furs
and the Manifesto. You're calling for a war and no one wants to come. Most
of the people the Manifesto rants against are NOT as they are portrayed in
that document. I have talked to the whole spectrum of people in the fandom
ranging from those who collect the stuffies, movies and comics to those who
have made it their lifestyle to those who practice therianthropy. They ALL
agree that the fandom needs cleaned up but they are looking at a different
element. Are the ones who give furrydom a bad name REALLY what we would
consider furry fans? Are they there out of love for the things that fandom
encorporates or are they there to cover up their own activities which
society in general finds objectionable? That to me is a key difference.
My ex introduced me to furrydom but I would no more consider him a furry
than I would Bill Clinton. His sole reason for involvement in furrydom was
because he could get away with roleplaying sexplay with animals. He had no
interest in the cons, he did not collect stuffed animals, he did not collect
the art unless it catered to his bestiality. Furry was a turn-on and a
sexual playground for him. Nothing more. Other friends showed me the joy of
collecting and drawing quality fur art, of cons and all that they
emobodied. They fandom is many things to me. I am a lifestyler, I am pagan
(but hey, I was pagan BEFORE I was furry so it doesn't really count), I am
an animal lover. But these things are secondary to the reason I'm involved
in fandom: because I like the concept of anthropomorphic animals. They are
elements of me, already present, that I have made the personal choice to
incorporate into my activities in furry. The key for me is discretion.
There is a time and a place for each of or a combination of those elements
and some are more appropriate in one place than another. I might mew,
scritch, whatever in my own home but I at least have the discretion not to
behave like that in public or at my job. And I choose my words carefully.
I never tell anyone that these things ARE furry, I tell them that they are a
part of me that I have chosen to encorporate in my involvement in the
fandom. Maybe I am unique in this approach and thought pattern, I don't
know.
> THe Burned Fur movement is, at root, an effort to demand that a
> standard of acceptable ethical and moral behavior within the fandom be
> set and held.
I wish that was all it was. It reads, alas, like a radical supremist group
who wants to seriously hurt, ridicule and anihilate anyone who thinks
differently than they do. And that is a real shame because, as I have
already mentioned, most Burned Furs are really nice people trying to do
something good for something they love.
> That things that are NOT a part of anthropomorphic
> fandom, that are of dubious or blatant moral and legal questionability
> NOT be associated with the fandom at large.
In partial agreement with you here, but who gets to decide what is
anthropomorphic and what is not? Some of the things I mentioned above are
intimately intwined in my personal involvement with furrydom and I have seen
others with similar views. Where do we draw those lines? Who is NOT furry?
Things like bestiality and pedophilia need to go. But what harm are the
other things doing? Does it matter that those people choose to conduct
their lives as though they WERE the anthropomorphic animals they play? Does
the person's sexual and religious orientation really matter all that much?
I've been involved in the fandom for some time now and I have never heard
anyone make the kind of statements that the Manifesto attributes to them.
Most just seem to want to be left alone to experience the fandom in their
own unique ways.
> That people in the fandom
> act with some semblance of restraint, and that when they are out
> wearing the label "furry" that they leave their sexual fetishes,
> sociopolitical motivations, religious/neoreligious leanings, kinky
> toys, freaky habits and bizarre personal behavior out of the equation,
> and that they do not attempt to establish a conceptual link between the
> fandom and their non-fandom "quirks".
This is a loaded statement. By all means, act with discretion. I am one
who dispises going out to eat with my furry friends at conventions because
someone ALWAYS wants to play "freak the mundanes". I can understand wanting
to wear the tails and the con badges to the restraunt but I was appalled at
the animalistic behavior ---the growls, the reaching, the mews, the woofs,
the snarling---that ensued at the dinner table. The purpose, they told me,
was to see how far they could push it before they were asked to leave. Why?
As for the rest, it's no one's business. You don't have the right to demand
that someone leave most of those things out of their involvement in the
fandom. It would be nice, however, if people could learn as I have to add
"this defines furryness _for me_" rather than saying "this is furry".
> Instead of addressing the issues, most of the opposition's efforts --
> yes, the OPPOSITION-- have been concentrated on complaining about the
> "mean words" used in the manifesto, and by some of the more flameish
> posts by BF members. Yes, the phrasing of the Manifesto is hard, cruel,
> and unfriendly.
It's more than that. It encourages in its more radical members an attitude
of roughness and vigilanteism. Some of the Burned Furs don't play fair. The
ONE problem I suffered at Anthrocon was caused by one of the more radical
members of BF. The person in question knew me from online, knew what my
personal preferences were, and proceeded to make threats which, when I
ignored them, resulted in my being cornered in an empty stairwell and shoved
down two flights of stairs. I was too afraid to approach security about it
after that but I did tell the people I was with about this person and the
threats they had uttered, which included disabusing my transsexual partner
of the notion that she was female. Uncalled for; we weren't advertising or
talking about it. It is not her fault that she can't quite pass as female
yet and if the Christians can keep their crosses out I should not have to
put away my pentacle.
> Unfortunately, the accusations of the manifesto are
> also TRUE.... which is what we SHOULD be addressing.
Not in my expereience and I've been involved with furrydom for nearly ten
years now. Yes, there are SOME people hiding under the guise of furrydom
like my ex and using it to cover their perversions. The rest of us just want
left alone to explore and develop our involvement in the fandom without fear
of someone hurting us at a con or trying to get our characters deleted or
our art banned. By all means, make it clear to those who are USING the
fandom for other things that this will not be allowed or tolerated. But
don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Some of the people the Burned
Fur movement have targeted are in agreement with the spirit of the movement
if not the words.
> revolution is far from over... this is only the opening salvo. People
> are still deciding where they fall on the issues.
Well, threatening my domestic partner in a public place like a con because a
Burned Fur _assumed_ she was one of the "freaks" the Manifesto talks about
isn't going to win any support from THIS fan. Neither is pushing me down
stairs and telling me to either conform to what the Burned Furs say the
fandom is or stop attending the cons. While this MIGHT have been an
isolated incident (and probably was, since I have many friends who are
Burned Furs and would never dream of such actions) I can easily see where
the ideas came from. The fault lies in the wording of the Manifesto. If
Burned Fur wants to accomplish anything, they need to make it clear that
while the Manifesto is strongly worded, it is there to help with a goal not
to give its members carte blanche for violence against folk who don't
conform.
> The Manifesto is what has drawn all the BFs togethor, and continues to
> draw new members. It IS the seed that started the movement, and around
> which all of the movement has aggregated. It is not, as such, the
> bedrock policy of the movement, nor the deciding "doctrine"
I'm not the only one who thinks that as it stands it is incredibly close to
some of the anti-gay and white suppremicist propaganda which has led in
recent years to beatings, violence, and death. I realize that this is not
what the movement is about but it IS the impression you are giving. Take
some time to tell your new members what you are about and establish what
behavior will or will not be allowed. Otherwise, I fear that at one of the
cons someone won't survive that push down the stairs and then where will the
movement be? Or at least if they are going to assault people, they should
be less identifiable and not but the BF logo on their con badges. Next
time, I WONT hesitate to approach security and if the person doing such
things is identifiable, too bad.
DawnWolf
>Why make it a goal in life to sell prints, to make money from it? I may be
>critisized for it, but fuck. I am not a bad artist, nor am I a Nakira, Terrie
>Smitch or Karabiner. I enjoy my work, but don't try to make a buck at it
>like some people do. Do it for the fun, for the ejoyment of doing it,
>not to be a sell-out. If you don't do anything but make a profit from that
>then I don't see how you can 'love' the fandom, rather then 'loving' the
>all mighty dollar.
*nod-nods* I agree wholeheartedly, and have said so in the past. When
you treat the fandom as a market, it reacts like a market. It is OK if
you wish to make a buck from furry, but do not bitch then that "furry
fandom restricts you in what you may draw". The only restriction comes
from trying to make a living from furry ... there are other ways to
support oneself. Remain totally free and do not cater to the market,
or cater to the market and restrict your freedom somewhat .. it is
every artist's choice.
DawnWuff
DawnWolf
Oh no, Ben induced me to enter into a flame war ... must resist ...
must ... fight ... the urge to reply ... cannot ... form ... whole ...
sentences ... any more ... argh!
>Comparing the Manifesto to the Declaration of Independence is, of
>course, hyperbole. Compared to the struggle between tyranny and
More than hyperbole, it is downright silly.
>Of course the Manifesto is rude-- declarations of independence, whether
>from a country, or from a perverse and degraded "culture of
>acceptance", are by nature offensive.
Hah. Read the Manifesto again. Perverse and degraded, my sweet ass.
Plushophiles are neither, nor are life-stylers, nor, arguably, any of
the other groups the manifesto attacks. Does a plushophile harm
_anyone_? No. Does a life-styler? Course not.
The only thing that is perverse and degraded is that manifesto.
Middle-age rhetoric, really, mixed with enough holy righteousness to
make one truly ill.
If you want to fight a holy war, how about picking child abuse. There
is a worthy cause. Of course, it is so damn common you cannot go
against a fringe group ... you go against the core of society.
>the movement. You don't tell the status qou "ruling class" that you're
>going to fight them, and then apologize for the language you used when
>you first made your declaration.
Hey, I like it ... I am a member of the ruling class! Yay! Furry
lifestyle rulez! Heh-heh-heh ... yeah ... heh ... chicks (think the
Doug Winger Beavis & Butthead satire :)
>THe Burned Fur movement is, at root, an effort to demand that a
>standard of acceptable ethical and moral behavior within the fandom be
>set and held. That things that are NOT a part of anthropomorphic
Bull. The BF movement is, at root, a hate-mongering group that doesn't
even _want_ to discuss ethics. Morals, maybe, those are flexible
enough to allow even the Religious Right to have morals (and what a
horrid set of morals it is) ... but ethics, surely, would demand to
condemn only what hurts others, and to tolerate everything that is
good for the person doing it.
>act with some semblance of restraint, and that when they are out
>wearing the label "furry" that they leave their sexual fetishes,
>sociopolitical motivations, religious/neoreligious leanings, kinky
>toys, freaky habits and bizarre personal behavior out of the equation,
>and that they do not attempt to establish a conceptual link between the
>fandom and their non-fandom "quirks".
*shrugs* As you say, it is a fringe. So what? Besides, what _about_
that link, should it form in some moron's mind? If the person is
involved is intelligent, they will see that a fringe of the fandom is
into unusual sex, and the majority, as always, is usually not. If the
person is dumb and believes the whole fandom to be the way that a few
members of the fandom are ... then who gives a toss about his/her
opinion?
I guess I just don't get it. I have never been overly concerned with
going with the flow, with conforming. I am who I am, and a caring,
likable me it is, though I say it myself :o) My kinks are my kinks,
and nothing to be ashamed about. They do not make me a worse person.
You are, in essence, demanding to take much out of the fandom that
makes it interesting, especially when it comes to religion or
sociopolitical endeavours. IDIC, man, if you still remember that show
... I sure hope you do.
Besides ... "bizarre personal behaviour", for example, is far too
sweeping a statement. This kind of language invites witch hunts. I can
easily see some furs thinking a fur pile, or scritching and hugging
openly, as "bizarre". That it is a return to a more healthy way of
behaving (ask any psychologist on the issue of people being "starved
for touch" in western society) is then suddenly not visible any more,
in the drive to push out anything "bizarre" ... which could just mean
unusual. Touch, BTW, is _much_ more common in Asia and India ... we
still suffer from Victorian times, I guess.
>and unfriendly. Unfortunately, the accusations of the manifesto are
>also TRUE.... which is what we SHOULD be addressing. Instead we have
Right. Shall we go through them one by one, once more? True? I take
offense to that. I am _not_ in the seventh circle of hell just because
I feel connected to wolf, in one way or other. The accusations of the
manifesto are mere rantings, nothing more, is what I say.
>want unacceptable things disassociated from the fandom, have used
Yeah, right ... CDA all over again. "Unacceptable things" ... don't
you see? This language is WRONG. It is too sweeping. Be precise in
your statements, and you might achieve something. But using statements
that condemn about everything anyone might do, that just leads to
hate, and KKK-minded people suddenly finding BF an interesting group
to be with. Do you WANT that?
>revolution is far from over... this is only the opening salvo. People
>are still deciding where they fall on the issues.
Spare me the martial language ... opening salvo ... hah. Revolution,
kiss my plushie. The BF are vocal only on the net, and only on the net
are they even visible. RL, I see nothing at all they have done or
accomplished. In short, the BF are a laugh track. Through their own
fucking fault, my I add ... they made what _could_ have been a good
idea into a group that noone with any sense would possibly want to
associate with.
>American government. But yanking it out would undermine the spirit of
>the movement it was instrumental in starting.
In that case, the movement can continue as it does, for all I care ...
as an obscure fringe on the net part of furry fandom. If you don't
want to change, remain as you are ... good for the rest of furry
fandom, actually, as BF will then always remain as powerless as it is
now.
DawnWolf
Forrest
Ben Bruin <lonely...@hotmail.com> :
>In 1776, a group of colonists sat down and wrote-- and signed-- a
>document that was heard 'round the world. It was loud, it was direct,
>it pulled no punches, and it openly insulted the monarchy of the time..
>in rather direct terms, too. It listed crimes and it named names, and
>rest assured the language used caused fits of howling outrage amongst
>the ruling class of that time.
And for six months the names of all but two of its signatories were kept
secret to avoid British reprisals.
It has now been more than six months since the Squee Manifesto; who endorses
it categorically? who has signed it? Not I; its implication that vegans are
somehow worse than people who actually break the law grates on me.
>Should we open up the display case, pull out the white-out, and retouch
>that document, because it might offend any British citizens or British
>nobility that visit our country?
>Or perhaps we should hide it under a table when they come walking
>through?
We do publically admit its faults. There is an interesting style analysis
of the Declaration on the National Archives and Records Administration
website at
http://monitor.nara.gov/exhall/charters/declaration/decstyle.html ]
which contains such interesting notes as "John Lind, who composed the most
sustained British response to the Declaration [...] deftly exposed many of
the charges to be flimsy at best [...]". As an example, from elsewhere in
the same article: "The 'swarms of Officers' that were purportedly eating out
the substance of the colonies' three million people numbered about fifty in
the entire continent. But Congress could hardly assail George III as a
tyrant for appointing a few dozen men to enforce the laws against smuggling,
so it clothed the charge in vague, evocative imagery that gave significance
and emotional resonance to what otherwise might have seemed a rather paltry
grievance."
>I use the simile because it
>is the only one both well known and comparable to the situation with
>the Burned Fur manifesto.
In relation to Manifesto I, the oratory of Tom Paine is probably a better
choice; Jefferson ran the draft of the Declaration past Franklin and John
Adams, and later complained that Congress's revisions had ruined it.
>And, in the terms of
>that age, was written in incredibly inflammatory language. Its purpose
>was to elicit open statements of agreement, to voice aloud what people
>had heretofore only grumbled under their breaths... to give the
>discontented and disaffected a unifying statement that they could point
>to when their own eloquence failed-- and when other, milder "mission
>statements" did not state fully enough the extent of their displeasure.
"Nor have we been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have
warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an
unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We ave reminded them of the
circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to
their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties
of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably
interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the
voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the
necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the
rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends."
> THe Burned Fur movement is, at root, an effort to demand that a
> standard of acceptable ethical and moral behavior within the fandom be
> set and held.
Absolutely! Of course, ethical and moral standards have to apply to
everyone; and since I find that following the suggestion "Anyone who claims
to turn into a giant dog at the whim of a celestial body should be
mercilessly ostracized and laughed at with maximum cruelty" to be unethical,
I can't endorse Manifesto I.
> That things that are NOT a part of anthropomorphic
> fandom, that are of dubious or blatant moral and legal questionability
> NOT be associated with the fandom at large. That people in the fandom
> act with some semblance of restraint, and that when they are out
> wearing the label "furry" that they leave their sexual fetishes,
> sociopolitical motivations, religious/neoreligious leanings, kinky
> toys, freaky habits and bizarre personal behavior out of the equation,
> and that they do not attempt to establish a conceptual link between the
> fandom and their non-fandom "quirks".
No controversy there, as Xydexx can affirm; "it's about anthropomorphics".
>Yes, the phrasing of the Manifesto is hard, cruel,
>and unfriendly. Unfortunately, the accusations of the manifesto are
>also TRUE.... which is what we SHOULD be addressing.
Although I'm still waiting for documentation on them. I've asked
repeatedly, but most of the examples given -- which I did find shameful to
the perpetrators -- have been on an issue declared off-topic to Burned Fur.
Evidence of bad behavior is not required to oppose bad behavior, of course.
>Instead we have
>bickering over the fact that the BFs, who have already stated that they
>want unacceptable things disassociated from the fandom
Still no problem there -- have I mentioned that there's apparently a
contingent of zoos that consider furry fandom an embarrassment and want
nothing to do with it? I came across that curious fact while searching
Dejanews.
>have used language that isn't warm, friendly and ACCEPTING
>in stating that goal.
There is a difference between acceptance and tolerance; there is a
difference between rhetoric and stating the truth. Acceptance implies
approval, while tolerance acknowledges differences and conflicts.
Unless you're willing to break the law in your fight against bad behavior,
you're stuck with being tolerant.
>The Manifesto is what has drawn all the BFs togethor, and continues to
>draw new members.
Not true; it's not what brought Dar Thornton in (which is perhaps why he
left), it's not what brought me in.
>But yanking it out would undermine the spirit of
>the movement it was instrumental in starting.
Which is why even people who initially suggest that it be removed will
settle for moving it.
I think it should be more clearly identified as what it is: a personal
statement.
Forrest
TygerMoon Foxx <tigr...@shore.net> :
>However, the Manifesto as it stands is nothing
>more than a bunch of name calling, posturing, and slurs. As far as I can
>see, it states no specific goals or proposals that are not couched in
>virulent hatred.
It's a cry of outrage and is written pretty much as I would expect such a
cry to be; one can read it dispassionately, however:
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=471806122
>The Burned Furs I met at Anthrocon were very nice, helpful people in spite
of
>the fact that I was obviously several things that the Manifesto speaks
>against, including lifestyler and homosexual.
For the record, there is no mention of the latter in the Manifesto; the
mission statement specifically denies BF has anything to do with it.
>>THe Burned Fur movement is, at root, an effort to demand that a
>>standard of acceptable ethical and moral behavior within the fandom be
>>set and held.
>
>I wish that was all it was. It reads, alas, like a radical supremist group
>who wants to seriously hurt, ridicule and anihilate anyone who thinks
>differently than they do.
As a part-time secular humanist I can't subscribe to any ethical or moral
position I can't personally justify, which means "God said it's bad" does
not suffice for me. I do acknowledge and accept that some people in BF
differ on this, and that they are bound by their religion to condemn various
of the practices mentioned in the Manifesto -- it's not just a matter of
people thinking differently. I also acknowledge that as far as seriously
hurting, ridiculing and annihilating go, the evidence indicates that they
have not done any of those things, with one apparent exception:
>The ONE problem I suffered at Anthrocon was caused by one of the more
radical
>members of BF. The person in question knew me from online, knew what my
>personal preferences were, and proceeded to make threats which, when I
>ignored them, resulted in my being cornered in an empty stairwell and
shoved
>down two flights of stairs.
Please identify this person that we may have him arrested.
Forrest
DawnWolf <sbeh...@arrowweb.com> wrote:
>Hah. Read the Manifesto again. Perverse and degraded, my sweet ass.
>Plushophiles are neither, nor are life-stylers, nor, arguably, any of
>the other groups the manifesto attacks. Does a plushophile harm
>_anyone_? No. Does a life-styler? Course not.
Most mainstream people (Americans, at least) would consider
doing...that...with a plush toy to be somewhat perverse, although the
mainstreamers I know of who are aware of the practice apparently consider it
more silly than offensive.
>[BF] doesn't even _want_ to discuss ethics.
I do and will.
>Morals, maybe, those are flexible
>enough to allow even the Religious Right to have morals (and what a
>horrid set of morals it is) ... but ethics, surely, would demand to
>condemn only what hurts others, and to tolerate everything that is
>good for the person doing it.
However, some members -are- motivated by their religiously imposed morals.
(And although I don't believe in or follow the god they do, I can't rule him
out, either. What if all the instructions in Leviticus really are how the
creator of the universe wants things run? but this is off-topic)
>If the person is dumb and believes the whole fandom to be the way
>that a few members of the fandom are ... then who gives a toss
>about his/her opinion?
I do, because there are many dumb people in positions of power.
Forrest
S.J.Laitila <s...@saunalahti.fi.spamcomnot> :
> People on Yiffnet and FM know me as Black#1. I was hoping the BF:s
> would too.
Not really being on either (I peeked into #furry for the first time this or
last month and spend about 20 minutes per -year- on FM) I didn't. I don't
know about Snowdog's habits (or even who he is), and belatedly realize that
Flahive probably wouldn't have known you under your own name...
The Luphranite
> I do, because there are many dumb people in positions of power.
ROTLF! and gives Forrest some type of expensive and pricey alcoholic beverage
(if you drink)
Amen on that ;)
--
The Luphra'nite
We should police ourselves, as we are our own best censors.
Forrest
Farlo <spam...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> S.J.Laitila wrote:
>
> >Would a troll ask for any opinions in his message? It was an request
> >postedx in a polite way. I think the troll paranoia, that many furry
> >fans are having is somehow irrational.
<g> If it were rational it wouldn't be paranoia...
> You've been using that alias (Black#1) for weeks in a forum that Forrest
> reads on a regular basis.
Not all of it; the interface for reading messages is too much like work. I
didn't recognize the identity (never saw the names equated).
>His claim of "troll"
Not a claim, a hypothesis, subsequently disproven. I didn't even raise the
issue at the time.
>is further weakened by the fact that you always post from the same ISP.
The member forum uses only IP numbers, so again no recognition. If ".fi"
had been there I might have less egg on my face.
Forrest
S.J.Laitila <s...@saunalahti.fi.spamcomnot> wrote:
> >Because the statements read like blanket commentary on the entire
membership
> >based on the statements of two people out of fifty-seven.
>
> Have you ever thought how many of them even think of themselves as Burned
> Furs anymore? If they just weren't interested enough to remove their
> membership.
Their positions pro or con can't be assumed. I do think the membership
ought to be inspected for dead links, as it were, every once in a while.
>Am I wrong, but didn't he tell, how long he's been in the fandom, and
>what an important person he is to it?
What he said was that he was one of the Burned. That is, an at least
moderately popular artist who abandoned "the fandom" -- or what I identify
as the art-driven fandom -- because of an increase in objectionable public
behavior.
>I'm pretty fed up with people, who are telling others, that their
>opinions are worthless, because they haven't been in the fandom
>for 15 years.
That 15 years does provide for more experience; experience can lead to more
vehement opinions.
I haven't got a strong negative feeling toward any BF, for example, but if
one pushed me down the stairs I would change my mind.
> >Snowdog's comment is to the effect that "If you can't stand for what is
> >right, regardless of how unpopular it makes you, then I really pity your
> >lack of the courage of your convictions."
> >This also is fallacious by virtue of equating the Squee Manifesto with
"what
> >is right" (even though it, for example, condemns vegans, who I consider
to
> >be -more- moral, not less, than most people (self included)) and reflects
> >more on Snowdog than on S.J. Laitila.
>
>
> That is true, but why did he say it in the first place, if I had said,
> that I wanted the manifesto removed?
Because some folks get as far as seeing that Manifesto I is anti-X (where X
is something they hold to be immoral), overlook the rest, and illogically
decide that if you're against Manifesto I you must therefore be either pro-X
or at least lacking in anti-X conviction.
Forrest
Dennis Lee Bieber <wulf...@dm.net> wrote :
> Practically all I've seen/read of the BFs strikes me on the
> order of: the BFs do not want to break free, rather they declare
> themselves to BE the "group" as it may have been decades ago, and
> anything that evolved from it must be expelled.
"Contrary to what some would choose to believe, we're not looking for a holy
war, or a witch-hunt. Only secession." -- Squee Rat
"The Burned Fur movement doesn't want to "stomp out" these segments of
"furriness", only practice vocal disassociation." -- ibid
ilr
I say this because when everything is said and said and said again(because nothing's
ever "done"), the whole movement boils down to one emotion. Pent up rage.
I don't blame them for trying to get to the source of it(the "perv"erted extremeties),
but inside is the only place you'll find this rage because the biggest problem with
being a wimp, is that all that anger can ONLY build up. Wimps can't vent
their anger on the real bullies cuz they're afraid they'll just get they asses kicked.
Fuck some long-ass speech. There it is, plain and simple.
--- i l r
Bahumat
Manifesto I have ever read. Well said, TygerMoon!
I'd like to bring a few alternative viewpoints to light on the whole
arguement, because I don't think they've had light shed on them before.
I am a proud public supporter of every 'fringe' group of furriness, with
the exception of pedophilia. I have had personal contact with nearly all
of the 'alternate' groups of furriness, and I consider myself fairly
well educated about each of them.
Strange that in all the talk of of furs who attach paganism, shamanism,
zoophilia, role-play, etc. to furriness, there is no credit given to the
fact that there are many more of the above said groups, who consider
themselves furry, but do NOT intertwine the two. I have personally known
8 pagans, 3 shamans, 2 zoophiles, and gadzillions of role-players, who
consider themselves furry NOT for their 'perversions', but because of
the SAME REASONS the 'normal' furries do.
It's a sad truth that a number of people use the fandom for their own
ends. It's a happier truth that of those that could, only a very few do.
I'd like to present another old political example, to use as hyperbole.
There once was another country, that was having problems with England.
They were on fairly friendly terms, but the rule of England over this
country was beginning to irk the citizens. The politicians wasted time,
and wasted time, until finally the mutterings of their populace became
too much to bear. Under pressure from their people, they took an
extreme, and drastic, political movement.
They asked politely, and respectfully, to be recognized as something
separate from England.
At first, England was shocked, that a country their 1% ruling class had
control of, wanted out. But then they realized that not only was the
country bigger and more politically powerful, but that England relied on
them much more heavily than the country did England. England's ruling
class decided it would be in their best interests to all, to allow the
country to be recognized separately from England.
So the country was recognized worldwide as no longer being controlled by
'Those english.'
That countries name? Canada. My homeland.
Bahumat
DawnWolf
>
>DawnWolf <sbeh...@arrowweb.com> wrote:
>
>>Hah. Read the Manifesto again. Perverse and degraded, my sweet ass.
>>Plushophiles are neither, nor are life-stylers, nor, arguably, any of
>>the other groups the manifesto attacks. Does a plushophile harm
>>_anyone_? No. Does a life-styler? Course not.
>
>Most mainstream people (Americans, at least) would consider
>doing...that...with a plush toy to be somewhat perverse, although the
>mainstreamers I know of who are aware of the practice apparently consider it
>more silly than offensive.
That is the point I was trying to make. It makes me laugh, in a good
way :o). I mean, hey, the plush doesn't mind, the fur is happy, no one
got hurt ... cool. Whereas abusing ones spouse seems to be accepted,
and not perverse ... bleah.
I know I am using rhetoric here, but still ... please, for the love of
God or whatever you believe in, can't a cause be picked that is
_real_? To go against plushophiles is sad. Go against people that
cause hurt to fellow human beings (or animals, for that matter) ...
there's sooo much of that going around.
This is directed towards those BF who do seem to think a crusade
against harmless furs is in order, you seem to be one of the notable
exceptions.
>>[BF] doesn't even _want_ to discuss ethics.
>
>I do and will.
*nods* Ok, my statement was too sweeping. Apologies. :)
>>Morals, maybe, those are flexible
>>enough to allow even the Religious Right to have morals (and what a
>>horrid set of morals it is) ... but ethics, surely, would demand to
>>condemn only what hurts others, and to tolerate everything that is
>>good for the person doing it.
>
>However, some members -are- motivated by their religiously imposed morals.
Then I will still disagree strongly with them on this set of morals,
if they include condemning someone who is just trying to lead a happy,
productive life. In my mind, people are to be judged by their actions.
Specifically, how these actions influence others. And plushs just
don't count ... they are not alive. Lifestylers just have a different
mind-set; again, that is no reason to condemn them. Blame an
individual lifestyler who has done harm to someone ... because he did
the harm, not because he is a lifestyler.
My ethics are pretty simple, I guess. But they work well, and I do
believe they can be universally applied. Hey, they're even Christian,
if you so will ... "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
and all that stuff. Or, to paraphrase da man Jesus: "Be nice, folks".
>(And although I don't believe in or follow the god they do, I can't rule him
>out, either. What if all the instructions in Leviticus really are how the
>creator of the universe wants things run? but this is off-topic)
Very off-topic. However: If such a God exists, I'll show him the
finger. That is what Free Will is for, in my mind ;o). I will behave
the way that I think is ethical, and "right" ... or try to, at least,
I am human of course and fail frequently in this endeavor ... and not
according to a set of morals that violates my ethics.
*grins* I have been influenced as a kid by the "Spenser" novels ...
not a bad influence, I'd say :o).
>>If the person is dumb and believes the whole fandom to be the way
>>that a few members of the fandom are ... then who gives a toss
>>about his/her opinion?
>
>I do, because there are many dumb people in positions of power.
And people in positions of power care about the fandom? Please
explain. This is, after all, a fandom ... and as such _not_ taken
seriously by those outside it. Look at Trek fandom ... noone takes
that seriously, either. That's the way it should be, too, it gives
leeway to be silly to those inside the fandom. A bit like the
carneval, really :o)
DawnWolf
Al Goldman
writes:
>
>Al Goldman <allan...@aol.comspNARFam> wrote
>
>> all that "save the fandom or
>> destroy it and build on the ashes" retoric became a kind of litmus test -
>> Blumrich's way or the highway, No compromises and no prisoners.
>
>Really?
>
>http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=510886641
>http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=514915061
>
from the first post, Eric Blumrich writes:
=================================================
At the recent Anthrocon, BF sponsored a neat little event called
the "heifer hop." A good time was had by all, and a goodly sum of
money was raised for a good cause. As the hour drew towards midnight, the
event closed, and a general meeting of all BFs in attendance at the con was
held. This wasn't a secret, smoky-room affair- a goodly number of non BF folks
were in attendance, and everyone was given their say. In fact, there was one
guy in attendance who professed nothing but scorn for BF- and guess what,
folks? Despite his hostility, he was given his say (we ignored him, for the
most part, but he was given his turn to speak...)
=================================================
<sarcasm mode>
On behalf of everybody in furry fandom, I want to thank the BF's for not
living up to the image the BF's made for themselves.
</sarcasm mode>
If you want me to believe the BF are a bunch of misunderstood, good natured,
open minded furry fans and not fascists wantabees then get the concentration
camp photo off Blumrich’s website.
=========================================
In another posting ---
In article <7pouju$9eh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ben Bruin <lonely...@hotmail.com>
writes:
>. That people in the fandom
>act with some semblance of restraint, and that when they are out
>wearing the label "furry" that they leave their sexual fetishes,
>sociopolitical motivations, religious/neoreligious leanings, kinky
>toys, freaky habits and bizarre personal behavior out of the equation,
>and that they do not attempt to establish a conceptual link between the
>fandom and their non-fandom "quirks".
While were on the subject, could someone talk to Squee about her link page
(http://www.mindspring.com/~goneagain/links.htm). She's got a half dozen links
to things like dead children photo sites and autopsy photo sites on the same
page as her furry links.
I find it incredibly strange that someone so offended by adult material in
Furry Fandom could be into such violent garbage, but it's her mind and she can
fill it with whatever she wants. Still, this filth should be far from her furry
material.
Al Goldman (back to lurking, and off to draw something)
I don't know what's weirder - That you're fighting a stuffed animial, or that
you seem to be losing. - Calvin and Hobbes
Al Goldman
Sorry to resend this, but I got a really strange error message when AOL sent
this posting back to me :-(
fka...@my-deja.com
Just thot I'd jump in here. Anyone here ever read "A Canticle
for Leibowitz"? I'm just gonna let it all hang out and say that it's
one of my fave books of all time- right up there with Orwell's 1984,
and Mark Leyner's "Et Tu, Babe."
Anyhoo, I was always looking for an album that would be good
"listening music" for the book. Ya know- something that captures both
the ecclesiatic grace, and the forboding atmospherics that always come
to mind while reading this classic. I now believe I've found it...
Sephiroth's album "Cathedron" is quite a treat. Mixing ambient
bass lines, distant mechanical highlights, and the sounds of gothic
churches and abbeys long abandoned, it's quite an experience. I
reccomend it every bit as highly as the Miller novel. It comes from a
Swedish Label- "Cold Meat Industry." If you can't get it locally- try
their website (I can't recall the URL right now, but trust me- it's
worth the 30 seconds it'll take you to do a search...)
I might be doing a flash website centered around the idea over
the next few months, as time allows. I might be able to keep some
Furry undertones, but it ain't likely...
Hmmn- just had a thought- maybe this ain't the right forum for
this kinda discussion... My bad...
T'ieh Pi Pu Kai!
-blumrich
rans...@au-au.extern.ucsd.edu
fka...@my-deja.com writes:
|> Hmmn- just had a thought- maybe this ain't the right forum for
|> this kinda discussion... My bad...
who cares. this place has been short on content for a looong time now.
--
privacy is a delusion.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
It validates them, gives them an image of having power over the BFs, and makes
them think they've "won".
--
The greatest tragedy is that the same species that achieved space flight,
a cure for polio, and the transistor, is also featured nightly on COPS.
-- Richard Chandler
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> That's not merely rude.
Whereas you've been leading by example, eh Farlo? The absolute paragon of
sterling manners. <snort!>
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> My ex introduced me to furrydom but I would no more consider him a
> furry than I would Bill Clinton. His sole reason for involvement
> in furrydom was because he could get away with roleplaying sexplay
> with animals. He had no interest in the cons, he did not collect
> stuffed animals, he did not collect the art unless it catered to
> his bestiality. Furry was a turn-on and a sexual playground for
> him. Nothing more.
The thing that sets off most people with BF attitudes (whether or not they are
members) is that your friend would FIND Furry Fandom to be a perfect
playground for him. If Furry Fandom IS a wonderful place for people with
attitudes like his, then we are doing something wrong. Very, very wrong.
The BFs are like the neighborhood association that forms to push the drunks
and the junkies out of the playground so the kids can have fun there again
without having to run into used needles etc.
Jim Doolittle
> Kan Pei!
>
>
> Just thot I'd jump in here. Anyone here ever read "A Canticle
> for Leibowitz"? I'm just gonna let it all hang out and say that it's
> one of my fave books of all time- right up there with Orwell's 1984,
> and Mark Leyner's "Et Tu, Babe."
"Canticle" rules. There's evidently a sequel out (St. Leibowitzha and the
Wild Horse Woman, or something like that) that I haven't gotten around to
reading, yet.
> Sephiroth's album "Cathedron" is quite a treat. Mixing ambient
> bass lines, distant mechanical highlights, and the sounds of gothic
> churches and abbeys long abandoned, it's quite an experience. I
> reccomend it every bit as highly as the Miller novel. It comes from a
> Swedish Label- "Cold Meat Industry." If you can't get it locally- try
> their website (I can't recall the URL right now, but trust me- it's
> worth the 30 seconds it'll take you to do a search...)
I've heard of this band before, I think...
-Jim
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
| Jim Doolittle CornWuff Press |
| dool...@tbcnet.com http://www.cornwuff.com |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Farlo
>In article <8E2A5A9EFfar...@news.fysh.org>, spam...@pacbell.net
>(Farlo) writes:
>> That's not merely rude.
>
>Whereas you've been leading by example, eh Farlo? The absolute paragon of
>sterling manners. <snort!>
Like you'd know the difference.
Back into my killfilter you go.
Darrel L. Exline
>
> TygerMoon Foxx <tigr...@shore.net> :
> >The ONE problem I suffered at Anthrocon was caused by one of the more
> radical
> >members of BF. The person in question knew me from online, knew what my
> >personal preferences were, and proceeded to make threats which, when I
> >ignored them, resulted in my being cornered in an empty stairwell and
> shoved
> >down two flights of stairs.
>
I think Tygermoon is full of shit on his above post. I can't believe that
anyone, whether they were a BF or not, would puch another furry down two flights
of stairs at a con. This has got to be a flat-out lie.
1) Why wait over a month to mention this incident?
2) Why didn't he have the person arrested for assault?
3) I don't believe his "Too afraid to contact security" line.
4) He mentioned telling a few people about this... since when has furry fandom
been able to keep a secret?
5) When Schirm bit Karno, it was all over the con in minutes, as well as on the
art-jam board (9 pages of it... )
If there were any incidents even remotely violent at Anthrocon, we would have
heard about them sooner.
In my opinion, Tygermoon is apparently trolling for Anti-BF sympathy.
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Darrel L. Exline "Your friendly neighborhood Polar Bear" |
| Director, "The ConFurence Group" -+- Co-Chair, "ConFurence" |
| 619-223-9482 http://polarden.org dar...@home.com |
|!! ConFurence 11: April 6 to April 9, 2000, Irvine Hilton !!|
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Farlo
>I think Tygermoon is full of shit on his above post.
Gee, Darrel, don't hold back -
what do you *really* think?
>4) He mentioned telling a few people about this... since when has furry
>fandom been able to keep a secret?
Ouch. I can't argue that point, really.
>If there were any incidents even remotely violent at Anthrocon, we would
>have heard about them sooner.
>
>In my opinion, Tygermoon is apparently trolling for Anti-BF sympathy.
He may or may not be.
However, here's some items for consideration:
1- One BF was known to have threatened Xydexx with physical violence
2- Another BF was overheard in a chat group talking about "putting a
bullet in the back of the head" of the plushophiles
3- Blumreich has that web page up that BF think is so damned funny - again,
involving violence done to plushophiles
These three "rumored"[1] incidents of BF involving threatened violence
indicate (to me, at least) that some BF are antisocial and possibly
capable of violence. Burned Fur do not exactly come across as proponents
of the "Love thy neighbor" school of thought.
--
Farlo
Urban fey dragon
"Yes, my e-mail address is valid. It just doesn't look valid."
[1] Item #1-3 are, IMO, not rumors but fact. I simply lack the interest
to dredge up the Dejanews references.
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay
>I think Tygermoon is full of shit on his above post. I can't believe that
>anyone, whether they were a BF or not, would puch another furry down two
flights
>of stairs at a con. This has got to be a flat-out lie.
*HER* post, moron. Personally I think YOU are full of shit,
Darrel, for turning a blind eye on this. What will it take to
convince you that your holy, moronic mundane wannabe burned
furs are only a hate group, and are spawning the sort of voilent
behavior at Cons that Tygermoon mentioned? Someone carrying a
plushy, shot in the back of the head, at ConFurence next year?
Would it be surprising if people attending CF started carrying
some sort of personal protection because the con chairman
apparently does not give a shit?
I knew you were gullible and imbecilic already, Darrel, but
this cinches it. Now we see you for what you really are...
another burned freak. Just another fanatic, intolerant, freak
(yes, a freak, what BFs have become, worse than what they are
trying to get rid of) whom the Fandom does NOT need or want.
Get a clue you idiot. BFs have BEEN threatening to do just
this sort of thing all along. They and their web pages even
suggest hurting and murdering non-conforming people found at
Fandom functions. It is not difficlult for me to believe that
they have started doing it already.
=========+=========+=========+=========+=========+=========+=====
Victry 'absolutely appalled; Vixy' Hyzenthlay
Technofox and personal Vixen. "YIP!"
Furry Fan with a Furry Lifestyle... AND a life! Deal with it!
_____________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ |- - - - - - - - - - - -| |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen II |-/| | |\
)____|___|=============================| """|_)
`----' \|http://members.Xoom.com/Vixy |/"""""
"""|"""""""/"""""\"""""""|"""
Victry{no-spam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -@{remove}juno;com
Please post any response to this newsgroup. Thanks.
Mk9Hawk
>>
>> TygerMoon Foxx <tigr...@shore.net> :
>> >The ONE problem I suffered at Anthrocon was caused by one of the more
>> radical
>> >members of BF. The person in question knew me from online, knew what my
>> >personal preferences were, and proceeded to make threats which, when I
>> >ignored them, resulted in my being cornered in an empty stairwell and
shoved
>> >down two flights of stairs.
>>
>> Please identify this person that we may have him arrested.
>
>anyone, whether they were a BF or not, would puch another furry down two
>flights of stairs at a con. This has got to be a flat-out lie.
>
>2) Why didn't he have the person arrested for assault?
>3) I don't believe his "Too afraid to contact security" line.
>fandom
>been able to keep a secret?
>
>heard about them sooner.
>
>In my opinion, Tygermoon is apparently trolling for Anti-BF sympathy.
Hey, that's not fair. When "Tygger" Graf used an even more far-fetched story
at CF6 (7?), that she was sexually attacked in the middle of a public hallway
at the hotel, that she beat the guy up against a wall (and no one in the rooms
bothered to stick their noses out), that she didn't call security or say
anything about it for months afterwords because I don't know why - if you can
buy this without hesitation, why are you calling Tygermoon a troller? His
story is more believable.
*************************
* 9/13/99 is coming! *
*************************
Richard de Wylfin
(Richard Chandler - WA Resident) wrote:
> In article <37C020DD...@shore.net>, TygerMoon Foxx <tigr...@shore.net>
> writes:
> > My ex introduced me to furrydom but I would no more consider him a
> > furry than I would Bill Clinton. His sole reason for involvement
> > in furrydom was because he could get away with roleplaying sexplay
> > with animals. He had no interest in the cons, he did not collect
> > stuffed animals, he did not collect the art unless it catered to
> > his bestiality. Furry was a turn-on and a sexual playground for
> > him. Nothing more.
>
> The thing that sets off most people with BF attitudes (whether or not
they are
> members) is that your friend would FIND Furry Fandom to be a perfect
> playground for him. If Furry Fandom IS a wonderful place for people with
> attitudes like his, then we are doing something wrong. Very, very wrong.
So what would be the *right* thing to do here, then?
> The BFs are like the neighborhood association that forms to push the drunks
> and the junkies out of the playground so the kids can have fun there again
> without having to run into used needles etc.
They're more like the rival gang that tries to seize another gang's
turf, turning the neighborhood into a war zone so the kids become
collateral damage in drive-by shootings.
Richard de Wylfin
What do you think of someone who doesn't even attempt to answer the
criticism, but blatantly changes the subject?
[Blumrich ignores Goldman]
In article <7pqenu$8ob$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, fka...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Kan Pei!
>
>
> Just thot I'd jump in here. Anyone here ever read "A Canticle
> for Leibowitz"? I'm just gonna let it all hang out and say that it's
> one of my fave books of all time- right up there with Orwell's 1984,
> and Mark Leyner's "Et Tu, Babe."
etc., etc.
Robert Guthrie
<dar...@home.com> wrote:
>1) Why wait over a month to mention this incident?
Hmm, i saw the incident posted the week after AC on the Burned Fur
Homepage's Message board. Unlikely as here, i didn't see no replies by
anybody on it, or its contents ( There was a mini-Flame war futher up on
the message board at the time, so it may have been overlook ).
Bob
Kai Robinson
>
>What do you think of someone who doesn't even attempt to answer the
>criticism, but blatantly changes the subject?
I appreciate it, quite frankly. Classic literature is much more rewarding
than this bullshit.
Forrest
Richard Chandler - WA Resident <mau...@kendra.com> wrote:
...a message that this reply became so tangential to that I decided to omit
it.
What I'm seeing -- in this conflict between two groups, both convinced that
the other is out to destroy "furry" -- is an instance of people arguing past
each other because they're not talking about the same issue, they're just
using the same words.
In the old days, which I'm thinking of as around 1990, there was a
sorta-kinda concensus regarding the definition of "furry" -- generally
involving pointing fingers at Albedo in particular, then various other
comics, and then other examples like cartoons. The common element is that
almost all of the main influences were visual, with a few text-oriented
exceptions like _Stuart Little_.
So it's somewhere around 1990; there's a rough concensus on "furry";
Confurence Zero and 1 have just happened. A little time passes. Enter the
internet -- the old, largely graphics-free internet.
And lo! FurryMUCK happened. Here, based on what I've read, is where
"furry" didn't so much schism or diverge as get re-invented without actually
changing.
What's FurryMUCK -- or any generic furry muck, stretching the term to
include IRC -- about? It's not a comic book or a cartoon; by virtue of its
text interface it's not art-oriented at all. It's more like a 24/7/365
convention -- it's about personal interaction: talking to (well, typing at)
people, roleplaying, and, uh...tinysex. Most importantly it's open to
everyone on the net, not just that subset of plainfurfen with net access.
People came to FM (and similar places) and defined "furry" according to what
they saw happening there, and by the inhabitants thereof. A -new- social
group appeared, sharing the word "furry" but not the comics-art orientation
of the original. They interacted for hours on end. They TSed considerably.
They talked about their beliefs a lot. And in the fullness
of time they got offered free memberships to Confurence 3, at which point
Eric Blumrich walked into the lobby and said "?!"
And now people are wondering "What happened to the fandom I knew?" which is
a question based on a false premise. _Nothing_ happened to "the fandom"; a
new fandom came along that also used the word "furry", just not in
accordance with the original concept.
Thus today we've got X and Y thinking Y and X are out to damage "the
fandom", when in fact it's just a case of X and Y belonging to two different
social groups that have a name in common: two different "fandoms" (see note
at the end) with two different orientations, now with two different
newsgroups and -- I strongly suspect -- on the verge of two different sets
of conventions.
Now to drag in the furvey study I've been noodling with, based on the 16 (or
thereabouts) furveys that were current on news.fysh.org's ALF message store.
This is not a scientific study because I'm not rigorous enough, but
informally I think it backs up my beliefs as described above.
Furvey question 26: What do you like most/least about being furry now?
Out of 14 responses to the question, 12 are thematically similar; and, I
suggest, are -not- the type of responses you would get from the art-created
fans. Anonymized quotations from each of the 12 follow:
"It allows me to be who I truly feel I am and the furry community seems
to be just really friendly and accepting in most cases. Just the general
furry way of life appeals to me."
"Prolly the diversity and acceptance for whom I am"
"It isn't a matter of liking it, for me. It's just who I am and how I
live. As for what I dislike, it's hard to live, feeling that you're trapped
in the wrong body."
"I love being a furry because........(I am a furry 'inside')"
"I guess it's a chance to have the idenity you want to have, rather than
the one people expect you to"
"In the land of the humans not everyone likes the idea of being furry
for some reason or another...."
"No-one takes me seriously when I tell them I am a fur."
"The people! I've never met a more tolerant, kinder, friendlier group of
people (for the most part =) )"
"being able to be myself and still be accepted(well more or less)."
"The sense of finally belonging and the fact that despite myslef I have
made some good, close friends out of it all [....] Least: I suppose having
to still lurk around like I do with non-furry friends and family"
"I like how tollerant most folks are about everything/I dislike how
intollerant some folks are about certain folks."
"what i like most about being furry is that i am someone that has
something to talk about now, i can fit in with a group, i can show who i
really am and what i really like."
Major elements: Tolerance, acceptance, sociality.
Furvey questions 28 and 29: How, and when, did you realize your furriness?
Was it by accident, or did you strive to discover why you felt this way?
Out of 16 responses to the former, 6 (7 if you count the MUCKer) came to the
conclusion through role-playing/alternate personas. 1 came to it by
discovering ALF, the interpretation of which I will not attempt. 4 through
art-related methods (cartoons, comics, art in auction).
Of 16 responses to the latter, well, here are are 8 quotations, each from a
different respondent:
"I have always been looking for an explanation to why I feel the way I
do to some point, but for a long time I had just accepted that I was an
outsider, put into the world to observe others in it, but never to really
take part."
"I found the mucks then the newsgroups and it all kinda clicked, like
"OOooooh! Well that explains a $h!t load""
"Well, I just knew I was different, took me a while to actually look at
what made me this way, i just thought I was nutz.."
"It was something inside... maybe a memory of a life in another
place...but something inside me denied my Humanity, and grew to fill the
empty space. I could no longer exist as a Human."
"[....] my head kept bugging me and woulden't shut up until I admitted
to being furry."
"I'm always "striving to discover why" about myself without particular
success. This was a happy accident as I had no idea toonophilia or furriness
was widespread."
"Both really. I was trying to figure out why I felt that way, but I
found the reason by accident."
"It was basically an accident, but I did wonder why I felt like that."
Thematic elements: "who I am" rather than "I like Albedo".
Furvey question 23: How does furriness influence your life?
16 responses, some ambiguous (e.g. "quite a bit"), 9 to me seem related, and
again not the type of answers I would expect from an art-created fan:
"Well...It helps me to understand myself and why I feel the way I do
sometimes."
"Well, it tends to make me appreciate diversity and all the good things
that comes from it. Even parts of furry im not into, I can better respect it
by seeing the passion that many express in their aspects of furry."
"Furriness is a major part of my identity, though the precise concept of
who and what that is shifts from time to time. The exact influence is hard
to pick out, since it's so much a part of me."
"I think about becomeing 'trully' furry everyday."
"I've always been weird, and usually refer to myself by my screen name
rather than my given name I spend alot of time in charecter, even around
others [...] escaping the mundane world and being what I would like to be,
rather than what I am, gives me a sense of freedom I woulden't have
otherwise."
"I've met TONS of wonderful people and the likes and it's let me show my
kitty side :)"
"From a quick look at the FAQ, furriness seems to be anything that makes
you feel closer to your phenotype. So, I'd have to say that furriness is
having a huge effect on my life. I have to say, looking back it seems to me
that I have been making a conscious effort to act
a lot like my furry alter ego [...]"
"Right now it doesn't influence my life much, since I only recently
discovered it. But I have a feeling it will seriously start to change the
way things work for me."
"I've been furry so long, I have no idea what life would be like if I
wasn't."
Again, it's about "who I am".
Furvey question 73: How important do you think the Internet is in your furry
lifestyle?
Out of 15 responses, 11 say very important, 3 somewhat, 1 ambiguous ("its a
link to learning more about it").
Interesting quotes from individuals:
"It woulden't exsist without it."
"It would not exist without the net."
"I would have not found other furs if I did not have it, so I'd say
pretty damned important"
"It is the best way I have to act it out and be with others who share
the same interests that I do."
"It's the connection to RL people who I can be with to be furry. Before
I was on the net I went to two cons where I was "invisible" because I wasn't
online. No one would talk to me. Then I went on line and suddenly lots of
furs think I'm cool. Weird."
"I would be furry regardless, but the internet provides a support
network, and an ability to see others who share similar feelings or
beliefs."
Furvey questions 71 & 72: What furry-internet activities do you do? Do you
access FurryMuck (or similar), to live out a virtual furry life?
Out of 16 responses to 71, 13 indicate real-time social interaction: 7
specify mucking, a non-overlapping 5 use IRC at least sometimes, and one
somewhat ambiguous response is "As much as possible."
On the latter, again of 16 responses: 6 Yes, 2 yes but not for a virtual
life, 2 used to, 1 prefers IRC, 4 hope to/would, 1 no.
Relatedly -- Furvey question 98b: What are your sexual preferences and
activities?
I'm ignoring all of this except the net-related, i.e. TS: out of 13
responses regarding TS, 9 are interested to very interested, 3 not
interested, 1 "?".
Furvey question 2: how old are you?
It's interesting to look at the age distribution of responses:
16 17 18 19(2) -- 21(2) -- -- 24 25 -- -- 28 29 -- 31 -- -- -- -- 36
(1 nonspecific teen not itemized)
Net-created fandom began (in my estimation) 7-8 years ago, so consider this
section in the light of that.
Summing up my position:
# Art-created fandom is about art and "what I do". (E.G. in the case of Dan
Flahive furries are a vehicle for drawing or storytelling.)
# Net-created fandom is about social interaction, and "who I am" (which can
include things like belief in animal spiritism).
Note carried over from above: after noticing that people I believe to be
net-created fans seem to use the phrase "the furry community" far more often
than art-created fans I did a DN search on the phrase "furry community"; I
find that it turns up about four times as many hits on ALF as on AFF -- as I
type this it was 986 to 250 -- and ALF hasn't been being archived as long.
TygerMoon Foxx
> I think Tygermoon is full of shit on his above post. I can't believe that
> anyone, whether they were a BF or not, would puch another furry down two flights
> of stairs at a con. This has got to be a flat-out lie.
I'm female, you moron. And it WAS reported to con authorities, just not to
security. Since one member of my party was con staff, they didn't seem to think I
would be in any danger.
> 1) Why wait over a month to mention this incident?
I didn't...the person made their intent clear before I ever went to the con. I
reported it to those I would be staying with and to a con staff member. Was assured
it would be taken care of.
> 2) Why didn't he have the person arrested for assault?
Because all they did was push me dow a couple of flights of stairs. They didn't
beat me. As for the other reasons...suffice it to say I'm an abuse survivor. I
survived the abuse by leaving the person alone, not involving authorities, and
getting as far away from the person as possible and avoiding them in future
encounters.
> 3) I don't believe his "Too afraid to contact security" line.
Then you've never been abused. Most of the security were very big, very aggressive
males. There was no way in hell I was gonna approach one. It was enough (I
thought) that my roommates knew the situation and that a few staff members had been
told.
> 4) He mentioned telling a few people about this... since when has furry fandom
> been able to keep a secret?
Um, I don't know what kind of people YOU hang out with but most of my friends have
better things to do than blurt crap all over the interet. Maybe YOUR friends don't
know how to act with discretion but mine do. They put my comfort and well being as
priorities over gossiping about what happened at the last con. And maybe YOUR
friends are such total losers that all they have to do with their time is tell your
personal affairs to furrydom but my friends have lives outside furrydom. If it
doesn't concern a specific person involved, they have no reason to tell them. It
wasn't an incident for "the fandom"; if you'd bother reading my posts instead of
picking and choosing you would know that. It was ONE incident commited by ONE
radically acting person with a BF insignia on their badge who had a demented idea of
what BF is about and who apparently decided to take things into their own hands.
> 5) When Schirm bit Karno, it was all over the con in minutes, as well as on the
> art-jam board (9 pages of it... )
>
> If there were any incidents even remotely violent at Anthrocon, we would have
> heard about them sooner.
It occured on Sunday night after the con was officially over. There were plenty of
misbehaving people running around who apparently felt that the official end of the
con was an excuse to overindulge and to make a nuisance of themselves in general.
Again, I don't know about you but I'm not in the habit of airing to the world my
private life even at a con. I'm not exactly a visible player. Fewer than fifteen
people could probably claim that they know me by either of my furry names. It was a
small incident which my friends and I decided should be quickly dealt with and
forgotten. Sorry if that doesn't feed your appetite for knowing all the sordid
details.
> In my opinion, Tygermoon is apparently trolling for Anti-BF sympathy.
THIS is amusing. I have no anti-BF sentiment or sympathy. Many, many of my friends
either belong to the group directly or sympathize with it. I think that their
Manifesto is poorly organized and poorly worded but I agree with the heart of their
complaint ---that there are too many deviants using the furrydom as a cover for
their behavior. Where we disagree is with what is deviant and what harms the
furrydom. I already said that MOST of the BF people I met were kind and helpful and
not at all critical. I definitely wouldn't want to stir up sentiment against my
friends. And if you'd bothered looking at the message boards in the BF forum, you
would find that I occasionally discuss things there as well...politely and without
tossing around insults and accusations as you cannot seem to do.
--
The Luprha'nite
> I think Tygermoon is full of shit on his above post. I can't believe that
> anyone, whether they were a BF or not, would puch another furry down two flights
> of stairs at a con. This has got to be a flat-out lie.
Your a twit. This person posted that ALONG time ago, and no
one even gave a fuck. I think only a few people even seemed to bother
then threw it out the window as well.
I know ALOT of dirty deeds went on a the con, but don't they always?
Fuck, you got several hundred people all crammed into a small or
rather confined building, all distressed, pissed, and generally hatefull
of someone or something, don't you think something is going to happen.
*shrug*
Personally, I think its funny that because someone WAITS to report
an incident like this, the first thing that happens is someone calls ther other
a lying trolling wanna be that needs attention, and the like. Doens't any
one remember old Monica Lewinsky? How about Whitewater? I know
this is not onsuch a grandios scale, but people often wait to talk about
things, or just don't feel comfortable at all.
Cripes..
I think there is too much damned testosterone floating around.
> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Darrel L. Exline "Your friendly neighborhood Polar Bear" |
> | Director, "The ConFurence Group" -+- Co-Chair, "ConFurence" |
> | 619-223-9482 http://polarden.org dar...@home.com |
> |!! ConFurence 11: April 6 to April 9, 2000, Irvine Hilton !!|
> +-------------------------------------------------------------+
--
The Luphra'nite
We should police ourselves, as we are our own best censors.
Exeperience and talent are NO excuse for blatent and utter
stupidity.
The Luprha'nite
> *HER* post, moron. Personally I think YOU are full of shit,
> Darrel, for turning a blind eye on this. What will it take to
> convince you that your holy, moronic mundane wannabe burned
> furs are only a hate group, and are spawning the sort of voilent
> behavior at Cons that Tygermoon mentioned? Someone carrying a
> plushy, shot in the back of the head, at ConFurence next year?
> Would it be surprising if people attending CF started carrying
> some sort of personal protection because the con chairman
> apparently does not give a shit?
Hey.. I already got a nine and a sword, someone messes with me, it a couple of
haymakers, then if they don't take the hint, its a lobbed off arm, then if they
try pulling the black night out of Monty Python, its an cap in their ass. If
that don't works, then I pray for divine intervention and run off screaming like
a 10 year old school girl when freddy krueger is after her ass.
(comedy folks, if you take it serious, your fucked in the head)
> I knew you were gullible and imbecilic already, Darrel, but
> this cinches it. Now we see you for what you really are...
> another burned freak. Just another fanatic, intolerant, freak
> (yes, a freak, what BFs have become, worse than what they are
> trying to get rid of) whom the Fandom does NOT need or want.
Well.. acording to some in the Fandom, those who are kink free are the
righteous inheritors of the fandom, and non of them have a shred of
talent, or intuation. Most of are happy to belive in conformity and the
ever present comforting pat of big brother and their pastor go guide them
through life and don't seem to see that there is a bigger picture, and
can live on their own and be different.
*shrug* Humans for ya.
> Get a clue you idiot. BFs have BEEN threatening to do just
> this sort of thing all along. They and their web pages even
> suggest hurting and murdering non-conforming people found at
> Fandom functions. It is not difficlult for me to believe that
> they have started doing it already.
I still remember when someone threatened to shove a certain persons
face through a wall the first time they saw them at a con. I was kinda
waiting to see it happen, so I could rip some shit, but it didn't.
Sigh..
If this is sorta crap furry is becoming, I think to hell with the politics, and
the social gatherings, lets all get together, have it out like a good old
fashioned street gang, beat the crap out of each other, then see who
is the more numerious and call it winnders and the other hasta get the
hell out of the other's territory.
Then again, I might be a bit twisted and fucked.
> =========+=========+=========+=========+=========+=========+=====
> Victry 'absolutely appalled; Vixy' Hyzenthlay
> Technofox and personal Vixen. "YIP!"
> Furry Fan with a Furry Lifestyle... AND a life! Deal with it!
> _____________________
> / \ _
> )""""\___ |- - - - - - - - - - - -| |_\____
> )----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen II |-/| | |\
> )____|___|=============================| """|_)
> `----' \|http://members.Xoom.com/Vixy |/"""""
> """|"""""""/"""""\"""""""|"""
> Victry{no-spam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -@{remove}juno;com
> Please post any response to this newsgroup. Thanks.
--
The Luprha'nite
> Hey, that's not fair. When "Tygger" Graf used an even more far-fetched story
> at CF6 (7?), that she was sexually attacked in the middle of a public hallway
> at the hotel, that she beat the guy up against a wall (and no one in the rooms
> bothered to stick their noses out), that she didn't call security or say
> anything about it for months afterwords because I don't know why - if you can
> buy this without hesitation, why are you calling Tygermoon a troller? His
> story is more believable.
>
> *************************
> * 9/13/99 is coming! *
> *************************
Well, I have heard that before, and can only say that it happens.
BTW what is on 9/13/99? 4 days after the MTV movie awards, and 2 after
my b-day???
The Luprha'nite
TygerMoon, but those involved and the pissy ass attitudes that have been cast at her
situation.
---
TygerMoon Foxx wrote:
> Then you've never been abused.
Probably not, the person in the previous post was probably bottle fed and raised on a
silver spoon. Heh..
> Most of the security were very big, very aggressive
> males. There was no way in hell I was gonna approach one. It was enough (I
> thought) that my roommates knew the situation and that a few staff members had been
> told.
*growls* I wish you would have talked to a friend of mine that was on the security
staff. I am sure he would have thought nothing of riping this person in two and shoving
them down a laundry shute, if not me first.
Don't feel bad though, your not the first person. I have heard from several people that
mr. Nazi screamed at a fur in an elevator and the like. I can't confirm it, nor deny
it, but shit happens, its just horrid that yours had to be so severe though.
To whoever did this TygerMoon, your an AAAsssshooollleeiioooo! ;)
> > 4) He mentioned telling a few people about this... since when has furry fandom
> > been able to keep a secret?
>
> Um, I don't know what kind of people YOU hang out with but most of my friends have
> better things to do than blurt crap all over the interet. Maybe YOUR friends don't
> know how to act with discretion but mine do.
Nope, most of them wrote the manifesto, or help support it. Yah.. thats REALLY
discretion, as well as the URL i give later.
> They put my comfort and well being as
> priorities over gossiping about what happened at the last con. And maybe YOUR
> friends are such total losers that all they have to do with their time is tell your
> personal affairs to furrydom but my friends have lives outside furrydom. If it
> doesn't concern a specific person involved, they have no reason to tell them. It
> wasn't an incident for "the fandom"; if you'd bother reading my posts instead of
> picking and choosing you would know that. It was ONE incident commited by ONE
> radically acting person with a BF insignia on their badge who had a demented idea of
> what BF is about and who apparently decided to take things into their own hands.
After viewing SqueeRats page, what a crock, and some other page.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/8071/
I am SERIOUSLY begging to wonder who the demented fucks are in the furrydom. Most casual
furs with kinks or not, lifestylers an the like are not as twisted as some burned furs
are. Sorry guys.. I have looked over ALOT of your pages and think alot of you need some
valum. This is fucking stupid.
If you got so much angsty hate and milkshake full of fecal matter, why don't you got go
an arcade, play some air hockey, blow some shit up with m-80, go tear into a tree, go
4x4in in a car where it's not supposed to be, rather
then posting some banter about this and that and why we can't stand someone who is more
this or that dirting our sheets. Point to worry about, most sheets in a hotel room are
just switched from room to room, and RARELY ever really washed. ;) I have no clue what
that is supposed to fit in but I thought i would mention it.
> It occured on Sunday night after the con was officially over. There were plenty of
> misbehaving people running around who apparently felt that the official end of the
> con was an excuse to overindulge and to make a nuisance of themselves in general.
Yes.. I think I remember one of the head of security talking about that when I was out
having a smoke with one of them. Unfourtuently my friend on security had left Saturday
night after a misunderstanding between me and a my a friend of mine. Otherwise I would
have been leaving the next day any ways and would have confronted this person and asked
what their problem was, if i would have been asked to leave, no skinn of my nuts.
> Again, I don't know about you but I'm not in the habit of airing to the world my
> private life even at a con. I'm not exactly a visible player. Fewer than fifteen
> people could probably claim that they know me by either of my furry names. It was a
> small incident which my friends and I decided should be quickly dealt with and
> forgotten. Sorry if that doesn't feed your appetite for knowing all the sordid
> details.
Don't fret, most of the people who are in charge around here are just loosers with
nothing better to do it seems. *shrug* I see alot of the folks who give a damn about
such things are those who don't have much themselves, or can sympothize with you because
they been there.
Certain people in charge, like a military structure, don't have to worry
about crap falling on them because they got everyone else under them
to hold up the umbrella.
Honetsly and personally you did a godo thing, making light of such an
incident to show the TRUE nature of the twits and jerks in this fandom/hobby.
Those who laugh and mock you for supposedly being a trolling lier are the
assholes and the jersk, and probably wouldn't give you a dollar if they
had a thousand in their pockects, or help you with a flat tire.
Okay.. I am rambling, I will stop.
> > In my opinion, Tygermoon is apparently trolling for Anti-BF sympathy.
>
> THIS is amusing. I have no anti-BF sentiment or sympathy. Many, many of my friends
> either belong to the group directly or sympathize with it. I think that their
> Manifesto is poorly organized and poorly worded but I agree with the heart of their
> complaint ---that there are too many deviants using the furrydom as a cover for
> their behavior. Where we disagree is with what is deviant and what harms the
> furrydom. I already said that MOST of the BF people I met were kind and helpful and
> not at all critical.
Uhmm.. okay.. the ideals are decent, but motives and thinking are all
on crack cocaine or something. I only met 3 I think, and two I didn't
even talk two but could just feel the pissy vibe coming off them, so,
i didn't talk to them. :)
> I definitely wouldn't want to stir up sentiment against my
> friends. And if you'd bothered looking at the message boards in the BF forum, you
> would find that I occasionally discuss things there as well...politely and without
> tossing around insults and accusations as you cannot seem to do.
> --
> Blessed Be,
>
> TygerMoon Foxx
> ICQ #8393998
Well, once a flamer, always a flamer. Most of em, i myself am DEFINATLY not innocent
either, can resist a chance to jump on something
bitch rant and tear it to pieces. It was a shamefull thing to have happened
to you, but people are stupid, fucked up and warped to their own beliefs.
I just wish someone get a few tactical nukes and clean the planet off a bit
but then again, it would harm the wildlife, so, its a bad ideal. I know..
lets round them up, put a bullet in their head, and dance on their corpses
and have all squeaky clean artists, with no brains, all talent and drive around in their
pricey beamers with their spouse and 2.5 kids, their
picket fence house, and rover who they don't fuck. :)
Basically, comformity, religion, and politics have NO bearing on this
fandom.
Its about art, not about who's dick is in what, or who is getting treated
like shit. The world sucks, go on, eat meat, fuck something, then die.
Enough ranting today, I need a cigarettte.
ilr
> Because all they did was push me dow a couple of flights of stairs.
Most people break their neck and die from that particular accident.
> they didn't
> beat me. As for the other reasons...suffice it to say I'm an abuse survivor. I
> survived the abuse by leaving the person alone, not involving authorities, and
> getting as far away from the person as possible and avoiding them in future
> encounters.
>
This account may seem a little suspicious but in perspective, some of
her words make sense. This agressor for instance. He(?) made a
a threat/premeditated a violent action against this person and made
it known to this person somehow. And given America's high tolerance
of violence, even in the courts (I've had friends released from State
Prison at Canyon City in only 3 months after several charges of assault),
I'd say this person has good reason to avoid further confrontation
with this very psychologically-dangerous agressor. Although I don't
understand why she would wave it around here in one of the most public
forums in the fandom??
>
> Um, I don't know what kind of people YOU hang out with but most of my friends have
> better things to do than blurt crap all over the interet. Maybe YOUR friends don't
> know how to act with discretion but mine do. They put my comfort and well being as
> priorities over gossiping about what happened at the last con. And maybe YOUR
> friends are such total losers that all they have to do with their time is tell your
> personal affairs to furrydom but my friends have lives outside furrydom.
But I can definately see a clear motive forming ;)
The Luprha'nite
> So what would be the *right* thing to do here, then?
Probably sit around, collect human smut, whak off and just oggle
and torment artist and fans a like, and occasionly care what really comes
out of the fandom, or is produced.
Then again, I am just an asshole with a twisted look in the world.
*shrug*
> > The BFs are like the neighborhood association that forms to push the drunks
> > and the junkies out of the playground so the kids can have fun there again
> > without having to run into used needles etc.
>
> They're more like the rival gang that tries to seize another gang's
> turf, turning the neighborhood into a war zone so the kids become
> collateral damage in drive-by shootings.
*snickers*
Hey.. I posted earlier about why don't we side up the fandom, two groups,
the Whitey Righty Tightes, and the Sleazy Sexy Drippy Pervs and we
all go at it in one big as battle royal!! Losers get dropkicked and can't come
back, and the winners stay and do what they want!!
Sound good to you?
Does to me.
Brian O'connell
> the Whitey Righty Tightes, and the Sleazy Sexy Drippy Pervs and we
> all go at it in one big as battle royal!! Losers get dropkicked and can't
come
> back, and the winners stay and do what they want!!
>
> Sound good to you?
>
enter! One fur leaves!
The Luprha'nite
> Sounds like a potential spinoff for Celebrity Deathmatch... Two Furs
> enter! One fur leaves!
Woo hooss!!
Just remember to bring your whistle!!
Those thick headed combatants don't like the whistle blown on themselves!!!
--
The Luphra'nite
We should police ourselves, as we are our own best censors.
Exeperience and talent are NO excuse for blatent and utter
stupidity.
It's the 90's, god is dead, no one cares, and if there is a hell, its furry and
I
am gonna see you there!!
Richard de Wylfin
<ka...@iquest.net> wrote:
OK, you've got a point there. Z%7+")
^ ^
o-o
+
Furries: We're not really animals. We're just drawn that way.
Richard de Wylfin
<anon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mk9Hawk wrote:
> >
> > *************************
> > * 9/13/99 is coming! *
> > *************************
>
> Well, I have heard that before, and can only say that it happens.
>
> BTW what is on 9/13/99? 4 days after the MTV movie awards, and 2 after
> my b-day???
Does the title "Space:1999" mean anything to you! Z%7+")
(So now you know how old *I* am!)
The Luprha'nite
> Does the title "Space:1999" mean anything to you! Z%7+")
>
> (So now you know how old *I* am!)
>
> ^ ^
> o-o
> +
> Furries: We're not really animals. We're just drawn that way.
Erks?? I know of 2001 and 1984, but that is about it. 0_o
Jim Doolittle
<tigr...@shore.net> wrote:
> > 3) I don't believe his "Too afraid to contact security" line.
>
> Then you've never been abused. Most of the security were very big, very
aggressive
> males. There was no way in hell I was gonna approach one. It was enough (I
> thought) that my roommates knew the situation and that a few staff
members had been
> told.
Just a quick point here.
Security folk are often big and aggressive because that works real well
for intimidating morons who make trouble at cons. However, you should
/never/ be afraid about approaching one, if you any sort of problem
regarding other convention goers. This sort of thing is exactly the reason
why conventions have their own security staff.
-Jim
Midwest FurFest Art Show Director
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> Like you'd know the difference.
>
> Back into my killfilter you go.
Never thought I'd be doing this, but...
10ROHOAFF Points 2, 6a7a, 7a, and pending on 6a7c
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> 1- One BF was known to have threatened Xydexx with physical violence
Interesting you can tick off these points. How about adding on the other
column Bahamut's intention to serially murder BFs.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> "Darrel L. Exline" wrote:
> > 1) Why wait over a month to mention this incident?
>
> I didn't...the person made their intent clear before I ever went to
> the con. I reported it to those I would be staying with and to a con
> staff member. Was assured it would be taken care of.
Who was the staffer. And since you have contact with whoever it was that did
this, you must know his name. Name names and people will be more likely to
believe you. Why on earth would you want to PROTECT the identity of your
attacker?
> > 3) I don't believe his "Too afraid to contact security" line.
>
> Then you've never been abused. Most of the security were very big,
> very aggressive males. There was no way in hell I was gonna approach
> one. It was enough (I thought) that my roommates knew the situation
> and that a few staff members had been told.
Well, maybe you need a little threapy then, because not every big male is
gonna assault you, especially when they have the opportunity to justifyably
bend someone like your attacker in half.
> It occured on Sunday night after the con was officially over.
So did Shirm biting Karno.
> THIS is amusing. I have no anti-BF sentiment or sympathy.
Yet you made a point of saying that this person was a BF.
S.J.Laitila
>had been there I might have less egg on my face.
I don't want spam of any kind. That's why I post without
showing my E-mail address.
S.J.Laitila
Helping others to realize, that fighting leads to
nothing.
S.J.Laitila
>bass lines, distant mechanical highlights, and the sounds of gothic
>churches and abbeys long abandoned, it's quite an experience. I
>reccomend it every bit as highly as the Miller novel. It comes from a
>Swedish Label- "Cold Meat Industry." If you can't get it locally- try
>their website (I can't recall the URL right now, but trust me- it's
>worth the 30 seconds it'll take you to do a search...)
Sounds interesting. I've always liked gothic church music...
And especially dark, eerie synths... Like Samael has in
Passage, Exodus and Eternal.
S.J.Laitila
>last month and spend about 20 minutes per -year- on FM) I didn't. I don't
>know about Snowdog's habits (or even who he is), and belatedly realize that
>Flahive probably wouldn't have known you under your own name...
Weren't these messages still hot-headed, or am I wrong
again?
S.J.Laitila
>open minded furry fans and not fascists wantabees then get the concentration
>camp photo off Blumrich’s website.
I don't need any belief in any of the furry politics groups. I just plain and
simple ignore them, and give my contribution to the fandom instead.
S.J.Laitila
>you treat the fandom as a market, it reacts like a market.
At least I give free commissions. =)
S.J.Laitila
>and the junkies out of the playground so the kids can have fun there again
>without having to run into used needles etc.
I thought people had the power to ignore, and say no without
forming any groups.
S.J.Laitila
>from both (all) sides who are willing to sit down and discuss their views with each other,
>privately. Keep the public egos out of it and keep it low key and non-confrontational. This place
>is composed of individuals "Lifestyler", "Burned Fur", or "Non". They are all individuals and
>hardly to be easily described with one label. After the last few years anything has got to work
>better than this.
This is exactly, what I've been thinking about lately.
I'll rather consentrate in drawing, and enjoying the
positive sides of the fandom.
S.J.Laitila
>I say this because when everything is said and said and said again(because nothing's
>ever "done"), the whole movement boils down to one emotion. Pent up rage.
>I don't blame them for trying to get to the source of it(the "perv"erted extremeties),
>but inside is the only place you'll find this rage because the biggest problem with
>being a wimp, is that all that anger can ONLY build up. Wimps can't vent
>their anger on the real bullies cuz they're afraid they'll just get they asses kicked.
Yes... Anger! Fire! I don't care how good this sandwitch tastes,
but I will smash it to a small wet stain, because it needs ANGER!
FIRE! NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS! HEMORRHOID BLAST!
Glen Wooten
> In article <37C1EC0D...@hotmail.com>, The Luprha'nite
> <anon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mk9Hawk wrote:
>
>> > *************************
>> > * 9/13/99 is coming! *
>> > *************************
>>
>> Well, I have heard that before, and can only say that it happens.
>>
>> BTW what is on 9/13/99? 4 days after the MTV movie awards, and 2 after
>> my b-day???
>
Good Lord, you're right! Soon, the atomic dumps on the back side of the
moon will detonate, the moon will be hurtled out of orbit into a series of
"space warps", the Centari Space Dock in high orbit round the Earth will
be destroyed (taking with it all the Mark IX Hawks that we were going to
use to fight the aliens that had been threatening Earth - but then stopped
coming...), as well as the Meta Probe. I guess that SID bought it when
all that happened, too...
I liked all the old Gerry Anderson productions - can you tell that?
Except for Joe 90 - I wanted to stick a pencil in my eye for that one.
You could always tell who was in charge the instant you walked in the
room - their desk had a GIANT name plate saying "World President" or
"Space Appropriations Commissioner", something like that.
--
Glen Wooten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_______________________________________________________________________
| Terrie's web page: http://members.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_______________________________________________________________________
Farlo
>Summing up my position:
>
># Art-created fandom is about art and "what I do". (E.G. in the case of
>Dan Flahive furries are a vehicle for drawing or storytelling.)
>
># Net-created fandom is about social interaction, and "who I am" (which
>can include things like belief in animal spiritism).
>
That is correct, IMO - and secondly, "Who you are" can often have a big
impact on "What you do".
--
Farlo
Urban fey dragon
"Yes, my e-mail address is valid. It just doesn't look valid."
Farlo
>>Hey.. I posted earlier about why don't we side up the fandom, two
>>groups,
>> the Whitey Righty Tightes, and the Sleazy Sexy Drippy Pervs and we
>> all go at it in one big as battle royal!! Losers get dropkicked and
>> can't
>come
>> back, and the winners stay and do what they want!!
>>
>> Sound good to you?
>>
> Sounds like a potential spinoff for Celebrity Deathmatch... Two Furs
>enter! One fur leaves!
Thunderdome - saw the movie, liked the theme song.
The Luprha'nite
> Only since the sword would be rather obvious, and likely not
> permissible unless the SCA were in residence -- and then it would be
> blatantly peace-tied.
Yes.. The sword also has a very nice carrying case, and is very good for
walking with as well :)
>
> OTOH: since it is unlikely I'd ever persuade this state to issue
> a concealed carry permit, I'm down to tear-gas (I do have the old state
> license for that) or pepper-spray (I even passed the license for that
> prior to it going to open sales), and "stun-guns". The former in my
> jacket pocket, and the latter in the center console of both vehicles.
I also belive that ANYWHERE in the nation it is legal to open fire on an
intruder into your home if they are with the intent to kill or threaten your
life. It could vary but that is one reason I have a gun now, as there have been
TOO many twits and crack head wannabe's moving into my neighborhood.
:P
I got too much valuble stuff to worry about it being sold for someone ones
durg addiction.
The Luprha'nite
> A two-season series in the late 70's by Gerry Anderson (sp?).
> Between it, and UFO, I think he should have stayed with SuperMarionation
> (Supercar, Stingray [first British series done in color], Thunderbirds
> [made US network prime-time], Captain Scarlet, and others).
Is Thunderbirds that series with the ships and the marionettte things, like the
rocket and all that? I think I have seen it if it is so.
> Space: 1999 starred Martin Landau as Commander of Moonbase
> Alpha, and Barbara Bain (hard to keep them apart, isn't it) as medical
> officer.
That does sound VERY familiar, but my early childhood years are mostly fadded in
a bleak shroud of brain damage or something :P blah.. but it does sound
familiar.
> First season had some old guy as a scientist with a pacemaker...
> He was "replaced" in the second season with a shapeshifter named Maya
> (sp?), played by Catherine Schell.
> --
That REALLY does sound familiar.. blah.. oh well, I will probably remember
one of these days.
Dr. Cat
: Richard de Wylfin wrote in message ...
: >
: >What do you think of someone who doesn't even attempt to answer the
: >criticism, but blatantly changes the subject?
: I appreciate it, quite frankly. Classic literature is much more rewarding
: than this bullshit.
I can't help but nod in agreement at such a sentiment. Would you rather
he leapt in and flamed whoever it was he happened to disagree with in
that particular argument? Naaaah, it's been done, that's so cliche' by now!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: Actually I can help it but I did it anyway. So sue me.)
Cerulean
>Who was the staffer. And since you have contact with whoever it was that did
>this, you must know his name. Name names and people will be more likely to
>believe you. Why on earth would you want to PROTECT the identity of your
>attacker?
Oh, maybe because she wants to live, and she knows the Witness
Protection Program doesn't handle small potatoes like individual
assault.
Unfortunately, it's too late. I agree with ilr, it was foolish of her
to tell alt.fan.furry, because now she's in the same position as if
she had brought charges, but without even the pretense of safety.
Might as well name names now before we lose you, TygerMoon; even if
you can't prove it, others will know who to avoid, or indeed to run
from when the situation calls for it. And maybe if you name the name
he won't be stupid enough to come after you again, because then it
would be way too obvious when we find you with a broken neck.
>Well, maybe you need a little threapy then, because not every big male is
>gonna assault you, especially when they have the opportunity to justifyably
>bend someone like your attacker in half.
Maybe she does. Does that support your position at all?
--
___vvz /( Absurd Notions is on! -> http://cerulean.st/absurdnotions/
<__,` Z / ( | Cerulean= | DC.D/? f s+ h++ Gm CB^P a $ d+++ l* g- e! i
`~~~) )Z) ( | Kevin Pease | FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( h+a!)oS uo!+ewJojuI - ,,Japuom o+ j7asJnoh 77aL,,
Dr. Samuel Conway
rampaging "Burned Fur" whom she refuses to name. She also claims that
she informed Anthrocon staff members about the incident. It is this
latter statement with which I take great issue.
TygerMoon Foxx wrote:
>
> "Darrel L. Exline" wrote:
> > This has got to be a flat-out lie.
>
> I'm female, you moron. And it WAS reported to con authorities, just not to
> security. Since one member of my party was con staff, they didn't seem to think I
> would be in any danger.
I'm afraid I cannot accept this statement. No member of my staff has
any knowledge of this incident. It was never brought to my attention,
neither would anyone working for the convention consider for even a second
keeping this a secret. If anyone on Anthrocon's staff had caught even
the slightest wind of this incident, I personally would have been all
over the perpetrator like flies on shit.
> > 1) Why wait over a month to mention this incident?
>
> I didn't...the person made their intent clear before I ever went to the con. I
> reported it to those I would be staying with and to a con staff member. Was assured
> it would be taken care of.
Please tell me who you claim to have reported this to. That person is
fired.
> > 2) Why didn't he have the person arrested for assault?
>
> Because all they did was push me dow a couple of flights of stairs.
That is assault. We do not permit that sort of behavior at Anthrocon.
You are not helping the situation at all by not telling us about it when
it happens.
> > 3) I don't believe his "Too afraid to contact security" line.
>
> Then you've never been abused. Most of the security were very big, very aggressive
> males. There was no way in hell I was gonna approach one. It was enough (I
> thought) that my roommates knew the situation and that a few staff members had been
> told.
a) I myself am not a "big, aggresive male." I don't think I'm in any
danger whatsoever of falling into that category.
b) My dear friend Key was a security officer. Nuffsaid.
c) Now it is "a few staff members" that knew. I reiterate, *NO* member
of my staff, let alone "a few", would have failed to bring this incident
to my attention, and thus I cannot accept this statement.
> Um, I don't know what kind of people YOU hang out with but most of my friends have
> better things to do than blurt crap all over the interet.
Kindly follow this advice. If you wish to make an accusation, do so, and
I give you my personal guarantee that appropriate action will be taken.
Otherwise, kindly do not cast such a pall upon my convention or upon my
staff.
> It was ONE incident commited by ONE
> radically acting person with a BF insignia on their badge who had a demented idea of
> what BF is about and who apparently decided to take things into their own hands.
And if you had indeed reported it, this person would have been arrested
and jailed before you could say "Jack Robinson." I did not then, do not
now, nor shall I ever permit such behavior at Anthrocon.
> > 5) When Schirm bit Karno, it was all over the con in minutes, as well as on the
> > art-jam board (9 pages of it... )
Indeed it was. I asked Mr. Karno if he wanted to press charges, and he
indicated to me that the situation had been settled to his satisfaction.
> It was a
> small incident which my friends and I decided should be quickly dealt with and
> forgotten. Sorry if that doesn't feed your appetite for knowing all the sordid
> details.
You're the one who brought it up. Now it concerns me.
Anthrocon is designed to be a place where people feel comfortable and can
have a good time. It is not a forum for people to force their personal or
political views on one another, and I was very pleased this past year by
the behavior of both sides of this argument. We will not tolerate any
action by any party that causes any of our members to feel threatened
or fearful for safety.
In short, "don't even think it."
-- Dr. Samuel Conway ("Uncle Kage")
Chairman, Anthrocon Inc.
TygerMoon Foxx
the individual in question knows my online names (stupid of me to have put it on the
badge, I should have used my real name or an alternate) they do not know me personally.
It's unfortunate that it was rather obvious who I was with (I already said, she doesn't
pass...not enough time on hormones and I'm not the world's greatest in the fashion and
makeup department either). I thought it sufficient to tell the person I was rooming with
what was going on (and they were staff but I am definitely NOT going to give a name since
that person happens to enjoy staffing and I don't feel they should be punished for a bad
judgement call now two months gone). I also thought it suffiecient that both of my other
companions were legitimately male and one of them was quite large. I was wrong and I paid
for that. I'd spent most of my time enclosed with this circle of friends but I didn't
think there would be a threat to _me_ so I sent the boys with my parnter. Another
stupidity on my part that I thought it would be all right to go up to my room late at
night alone and get something. Another bad judgement call that the elevators were slow
that night and I wanted to catch up to my party as quickly as possible so I took the
stairs, alone. The events which caused the problem were soley my fault. If I hadn't been
stupid none of it would have happened. And it happened AFTER the con was over. We
debated informing security but they were concerned about whether or not anything could be
done since the con was officially over. In the end I thought it best to just leave it
be.
I don't see any reason to punish anyone; all the person did was scare me and push me a
bit. The events that allowed such a thing to occur were my own stupid fault. If I hadn't
done a few things it wouldn't have been an issue. The responsibility for the encounter
rests soley on my shoulders for being stupid enough to put myself in that sort of
position. Perhaps I should have reported it properly (and it wasn't for lack of urging
--- I just decided that with those friends around we'd be safe. The staff member in
question asked me several times if I wanted to talk to Uncle Kage and I shivered and told
him "no"). Therapy? You bet...but it hasn't done any good yet. I will probably always be
terrified of males I don't know. My fault again. I chose. The responsibility is mine.
I do, however, see reason to think long and hard before I commit myself to something and
weigh the repercussions of belonging to such a group ---any group. Which is why, although
I support the ideas behind it, I will never actually BE a Burned Fur. Which was my only
reason for bringing it up to begin with. The individual in question justified the things
he said/did with specific quotes from the Manifesto. That doesn't make him a BF. It makes
him an opportunist like the ones we are trying to rid the fandom of who seizes on
something legitimate with which to cover disreputable actions. However, the document is
there for these nuts to use.
I don't know if I'll ever attend another con. If I do, I will do several things
differently. My partner will either be far enough into transition that we don't have to
worry about this or she will dress male; I will not go wandering about late at night; I
will not put either of my known online names on the con badge; and I will not let any but
a few friends know that I am going. I will keep to the well lit areas (no stairwells) and
I will wait for the damned elevators. I will not assume that because I have two trusted
male friends with me that I am safe. And perhaps most importantly, next time I'll let the
staff member (friend or no) do his job and not insist on silence. Hindsight is a
wonderful thing; I realize now that something could have been arranged, that he could have
spoken to someone about it, appraised them of the situation, and they could have found
someone to talk to me who wasn't going to scare me to death. But that's why it's
hindsight. It was my first con. I didn't know. Now I do.
As for who did it...I'm not worried about him finding where I live and pursuing it beyond
a con setting for the simple matter that I don't leave my personal details accessible on
line. He has no clue what my real name is, where I am from. My ISP address covers three
states and they won't release customer information to just anyone asking.
My ONLY point for bringing this whole mess into the light was that there are some folk out
there who see the Manifesto and decide it's a license to carry out their own personal
agenda because of the strong wording, condemnation, and insults contained within. But
then, I suspect these people would do the same with a more solid document.
An end to the matter then.
--
Blessed Be,
TygerMoon Foxx
ICQ #8393998
Moonlight Sonata's Wicker Basket http://www.FurNation.com/MSonata
TygerMoon Foxx's Den http://www.crosswinds.net/~tygermoon
----------------------------------------------------------------
I am darkness and light, the shadow hunter and king of the sun.
My claws hold the earth, my tongue tastes the sky.
I am steadfast and strong, compassionate and caring.
I am tiger, and my words are pure.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Farlo
All activity leads to something, good or bad.
The fact that you have moved above and beyond the fighting says positive
things about you.
The Luprha'nite
> Does everyone on both sides of this issue need to make threatening
> innuendos and vow revenge in advance for ethical mistakes yet to happen?
>
*smirks* and grabs Delete Me and shakes him!
"Meean!! Don't you know!! The end of the millenium is upon usss!
'Wee gootttss to preeparee!!"
Then goes back to his normal hateful and dispicable mood.
Cerulean
>I don't see any reason to punish anyone; all the person did was scare me and push me a
>bit. The events that allowed such a thing to occur were my own stupid fault.
I understand that a lifetime of abuse can make you think that
everything that happens to you is your fault. But you're wrong.
Nothing justifies abuse or assault. Two flights of stairs? That was an
attempt on your life, whether you want to realize it or not.
And you know what? This isn't about your decisions anymore; I don't
care if you think being pushed down the stairs is just rough foreplay
in your book. We've got a fandom full of people who don't want a thug
like that wandering around free, and don't want anybody to think they
can get away with such things. This isn't your daddy or your husband,
this guy wants to hurt lots of people, not just you.
If somebody ELSE gets pushed down the stairs, it WILL be your fault.
Understand?
Glen Wooten
> TygerMoon claims to have been pushed down two flights of stairs by a
> rampaging "Burned Fur" whom she refuses to name. She also claims that
> she informed Anthrocon staff members about the incident. It is this
> latter statement with which I take great issue.
>
> TygerMoon Foxx wrote:
>>
>> "Darrel L. Exline" wrote:
>> > This has got to be a flat-out lie.
>>
>> I'm female, you moron. And it WAS reported to con authorities, just
>> not to security. Since one member of my party was con staff, they
>> didn't seem to think I would be in any danger.
>
> I'm afraid I cannot accept this statement. No member of my staff has
> any knowledge of this incident. It was never brought to my attention,
> neither would anyone working for the convention consider for even a second
> keeping this a secret. If anyone on Anthrocon's staff had caught even
> the slightest wind of this incident, I personally would have been all
> over the perpetrator like flies on shit.
Alright, let me wade in here for a second, bringing the experience I've
had with my local citizen's patrol & code compliance team. I'm not a cop,
but our local group ASSISTS the cops, so I've had some experience with
dealing with people AFTER an incident occurs. We do not get involved with
crimes in progress (by our charter - I sometimes have to restrain some of
our more exuberant members at times...), but we help with training &
prevention.
One thing we try to drill into a crime victim if they are hesitant about
filing a police report is that if there is nothing for the cops to go on,
you can't expect any help from the police. And that if they let the perp
get off without even an attempt to investigate, he's only going to go out
and do it again. By not making the attempt to prosecute the perp, you are
putting your neighbors in jeopardy by allowing the criminal element to run
free.
The area just to the east of me is a fine example - East San Diego was a
pretty run down part of town when I first moved in the area. It still has
problems, but due to the diligent efforts of the local citizen's patrol
(that's us...), crime is WAY down, and redevelopment money is coming into
the area. YOU make the effort, everyone benefits.
How does any of this affect a convention? It's the exact same situation.
If you have people molesting others at a convention, con security (or
hotel security, or the local police) can do nothing to help if it's not
reported. If you have something stolen, not reporting it won't help. If
you see some... inappropriate behavior in a public area, not reporting it
isn't going to make it go away. If you are a victim of a crime or a
witness to a crime, you have the obligation to report it to the necessary
authorities. If you wait till LONG after the event then start to harp
about it, then YOU are as responsible for the negative impact (that is,
the fallout or other events that might have occurred due to your lack of
reporting) of the event as the perp - because YOU could have done
something about it at the time.
So what should you do? If you know of a crime in progress, or have just
left the scene of a crime, contact the nearest con security person. If
they do not give you immediate satisfaction, go to the chief of security.
If that doesn't get you satisfaction, go to the con chair, the hotel, and
then the local police - in that order. Always try to work within the
chain - a small incident is best handled internally. If it's a felony
offense however, go straight to the top - very few con security people
have the power of arrest. And remember, satisfaction does not mean "I saw
those 2 kissing in the lobby - that offends me - call the police!" The
level of action must complement the level of the activity.
If you wait till long after the alleged incident to say anything about it,
what does that mean? Well, logically, you have to realize that the
incident will probably not be taken very seriously. There is no way to
investigate the incident, there are generally no witnesses (and "I told
someone about it right after it happened" is hearsay evidence - it doesn't
hold up in court), and if there is even a description of the suspect, he's
long gone - no way to connect him to the crime now.
I have heard many "I was robbed" or "I was attacked" stories at
conventions - I'm afraid I have to discount most of them. If they start
out "A few months ago...", there is NO way to verify what's being said.
All it will do is start flames. "I had this stuff stolen as I was
leaving..." - then why don't you make a report? You can't make an
insurance claim if you don't have a police report. If you don't make a
report at the time the alleged incident happens, don't be surprised if you
are not believed. You might be afraid to, I can understand that, but in
the eyes of the law: "No report - no witnesses - no evidence - no
description - no crime."
If you are attacked, you MUST make a report - if not for yourself, then
for everyone around you. If you are afraid to, contact someone you know
who won't be afraid to - they can be the front man. If you let the perp
go scot free, you're letting him know he won - and he can do it to you
again - you won't do anything the next time either. If anyone ever
attacked Terrie - and survived (Terrie knows judo...), he'd better hope
the police have him - 'cause I would do unspeakable things to him. Your
friends & loved ones will generally back you all the way - and a lone
perp is going to be a bit more hesitant when it's 10 people confronting
him than 1.
If you make a report to the convention security staff, and nothing
happens, then you certainly have something to complain about. If you
don't tell anyone, you've only got yourself to blame. Sorry, but if you
won't be part of the solution, you're part of the problem - and that's
what the criminal element is counting on.
Delete Me
wrote:
>Delete Me wrote:
>
>> Does everyone on both sides of this issue need to make threatening
>> innuendos and vow revenge in advance for ethical mistakes yet to happen?
>>
>
>*smirks* and grabs Delete Me and shakes him!
>
>"Meean!! Don't you know!! The end of the millenium is upon usss!
>
>'Wee gootttss to preeparee!!"
>
>Then goes back to his normal hateful and dispicable mood.
Assault! Assault! He touched me! *looks for a pi- err, policeman to
respond*
--
To the East, dwells Delete Me <dele...@deathpenguin.com>
A sorceress fair
She of glib tongue anty-spmam soldeir (bagde# 38jd764g6zz41)
And fell wit adherent of the art of sharp pointy stick jabbing