how to teach fetch?
David St. Hubbins
how do you get a dog to fetch mine just looks at me funny
i tryed throing a rawhide bone and she went to get it but when i tried again
she left it ive tryed frisbees and tennis balls i think she is blind
she runs after them and kinda steps on em and keeps going
maybe i should dip the tennis ball in barbeque sauce
Marshall Dermer
>
>how do you get a dog to fetch mine just looks at me funny
Subject: Re: Teddy retrieving in water and guarding his ball
From: der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
Date: 1997/09/01
Message-Id: <5ufjg5$2...@uwm.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
[More Headers]
Dear Daisy,
We adopted a stray who would chase after balls but not return them. Here is
what I did.
I had the dog sit in front of me. I opened her mouth and put the ball
inside. Then I waited a few seconds, said "release," gently opened her mouth
to remove the ball and then gave her a treat. I repeated this many times.
Over the many trials, I made certain to provide her favorite treats when
she released the ball. Eventually, she reliably released the ball when
I said "release."
Then I would say "fetch" and open her mouth and insert the ball, followed by
her holding the ball, and then my asking her to release the ball which was
followed, as usual, with her favorite treat. I repeated this many times
until she would reliably take the ball from my hand when I said "fetch," hold
it, release it when requested, and enjoy the treat.
Then I would put the ball, on the ground, just in front of her and say
"fetch" and repeat the entire sequence (behavior analysts call this a chain)
beginning with the command "fetch." When she would reliably do this, then
I moved the ball further from her, said "fetch," etc. Eventually, I could
throw the ball a short distance and she would fetch and return it. As
always, I consequted the release of the ball into my hand with a treat.
Eventually, I threw the ball and she reliably returned it. Later, I
faded out the treat and the opportunity of fetching the ball apparently
became the reward that maintained the behavior.
I hope this helps.
--Marshall
Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@csd.uwm.edu
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"
Lee Sailer
> In article <7k78pm$ssf$1...@ultra.sonic.net> dhub...@sonic.net (David St. Hubbins) writes:
> >
> >how do you get a dog to fetch mine just looks at me funny
>
>
>
>
>
> We adopted a stray who would chase after balls but not return them. Here is
> what I did.
>
> I had the dog sit in front of me. I opened her mouth and put the ball
> inside. Then I waited a few seconds, said "release," gently opened her mouth
> to remove the ball and then gave her a treat. I repeated this many times.
>
>
Other good advice deleted.....
The general principle here is a really important one. You have to work
toward the desired behavior in really small steps.
lee
blac...@dog-play.com
Hubbins) writes: :> :>how do you get a dog to fetch mine just looks at me
funny
: Subject: Re: Teddy retrieving in water and guarding his ball
: From: der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
: I had the dog sit in front of me. I opened her mouth and put the ball
: inside. Then I waited a few seconds, said "release," gently opened her mouth
: to remove the ball and then gave her a treat. I repeated this many times.
: Over the many trials, I made certain to provide her favorite treats when
: she released the ball. Eventually, she reliably released the ball when
: I said "release."
: Then I would say "fetch" and open her mouth and insert the ball, followed by
: her holding the ball, and then my asking her to release the ball which was
: followed, as usual, with her favorite treat. I repeated this many times
: until she would reliably take the ball from my hand when I said "fetch," hold
: it, release it when requested, and enjoy the treat.
: Then I would put the ball, on the ground, just in front of her and say
: "fetch" and repeat the entire sequence (behavior analysts call this a chain)
: beginning with the command "fetch." When she would reliably do this, then
: I moved the ball further from her, said "fetch," etc. Eventually, I could
: throw the ball a short distance and she would fetch and return it. As
: always, I consequted the release of the ball into my hand with a treat.
: Eventually, I threw the ball and she reliably returned it. Later, I
: faded out the treat and the opportunity of fetching the ball apparently
: became the reward that maintained the behavior.
I used a similar but less complusive process for my dog Oso. And, no, I
didn't think it up. I watched a video tape, part of a "positive training"
series in which Patti Russo demonstrated teaching her whippet to fetch.
It was a fascinating process and it worked.
I use cat kibble for treats because they are small, tasty and quickly
eaten. The first step is just to get the dog interested in the object.
If the dog follows it with his eyes he is rewarded. Just one kibble.
The next step is to get the dog to touch the object. Don't touch the dog
with the object, get him to touch it, even accidentally. If you hold it
close and move your other had around the dog will touch it. The dog gets
just one kibble for touching the object. Now you put a cue to the touching
so you can get the dog to intentionally touch the object. Just say the
word "touch" as the dog is about to touch it, or a fraction of a second
after. The closer in time the word is to the actual touching the better.
Keep rewarding for touching. Now start holding the object in different
positions, to both sides of the head, in front, in front and a little up,
in front and a little down. When the dog is reaching out to touch no
matter where in relation to his head you hold the object the session is
over.
Next session refresh the "touch" command. Now what you want is a firmer
touch, a push. Give the command "touch" but wait until the toch is very
definite. Be patient, don't repeat the command, just say "touch", make the
object available and wait. The dog will do his normal touch and expect a
reward. Just wait. Most dogs will wonder where the heck the reward went
to and will touch more definetly - then reward. Keep this up until there
is a very definite push to the touch, and again you have this from all
positions.
Now here comes the non-intuitive
part. To get the dog to grab for the object pull it away from him. You say
"touch" and as he goes to push pull the object slightly away. You aren't
playing keep away, but you are trying to get the dog to say "hey, cut that
out -STOP!" to the object. So slowly pull it away, the moment the dog
touches it with even a slightly open mouth you reward. It may take a
couple tries. Next? You got it - raise the criteria. Make him actually
put teeth to the object. When you get to that point end the session, even
if he isn't holding it yet.
The next session start with touch, but when you get back to the point of
getting the dog's teeth on the object start a new command (that's because
"touch" is so useful in other training) Say "take it" Progress to the
point where the dog does not get treated until he has grasped the object
firmly enough that you can tug on it very lightly. Oh - you won't teach a
hold 'til much later. That he spits the object out pronto doesn't matter
you just want enough pressure that he can pick it up.
Remember, all this time the dog is taking the object by stopping it as it
is being moved away from him, gently and slowly, but still away. Now here
is where I had the most trouble. I had to transition him from me holding
the object, to him getting the object. I started by making him work a
little harder to get the object in his mouth. I stood up and made a slow
360 with him chasing after it. Then I slowly got it lower to the ground.
Then I was dragging it on the ground, then I tossed it six inches. He
stood and stared, and I waited. He touched it and got praise and I waited,
he put his teeth on it and got his reward. We progressed very quickly
then back to the full take, and then I simply offered the reward - if the
object wasn't in his mouth he got no reward. It wasn't very long at all
before he was bounding across the room picking it up and returning with
it. Getting him to hold is the same process of just waiting a bit longer
befor offering the reward. Eventually he started to like the game itself.
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
- - - - - - - - -
"The idea that we can enhance or change various aspects of our
relationships with our dogs through our awareness and use of body lanugage
and emotion makes owning a dog a tremendously intriguing experience. "
"The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.
Marshall Dermer
(Lee Sailer) writes:
>The general principle here is a really important one. You have to work
>toward the desired behavior in really small steps.
>
>lee
Very true Lee, but another important principle is involved as well.
That principle is called "backwards chaining": you teach the last
behavior first. I first taught my dog to hold /release the ball
on command. Only when he had mastered this did I teach her to stretch
her neck to reach the ball so she could hold/release it. And only
after I taught her this did she have to walk to where the ball was,
stretch her neck to reach the ball, and return so she could hold/release
it.
Best wishes,
Marshall
Marshall Dermer
>I used a similar but less complusive process for my dog Oso.
Hi Diane!
The method I presented for teaching fetch depends much on physical prompts
(or "putting through") whereas the method you presented depends much on
shaping.
The method I posted obviously worked with our German Shepherd/Yellow Lab mix
but did not work well with our Havense who is easily distracted by physical
prompts. So, I used a combination of methods with him and they worked!
Nothing succeeds like success!
Best wishes,
Marshall
der...@uwm.edu
jb
tossed the ball a few times, and he got the point almost immeditately. I
know this doesn't help you, but....well sometimes I brag about him a little!
Marshall Dermer <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:7k8qgb$oeg$1...@uwm.edu...
>
blac...@dog-play.com
Marshall Dermer <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
: In article <3767d8b2$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com> blac...@dog-play.com writes:
:>I used a similar but less complusive process for my dog Oso.
: Hi Diane!
: The method I presented for teaching fetch depends much on physical prompts
: (or "putting through") whereas the method you presented depends much on
: shaping.
: The method I posted obviously worked with our German Shepherd/Yellow Lab mix
: but did not work well with our Havense who is easily distracted by physical
: prompts. So, I used a combination of methods with him and they worked!
: Nothing succeeds like success!
Hmmm Ok let's see if I undertand the difference.
When I wanted to teach Oso to "shake hands" I st him, got him just a
little excited and when his paw came up off the ground I praised him. He
got praised when his paw went high enough to touch me, and in short order
I was requiring he touch me to get praised and very shortly after that paw
had to go in hand. That end up with a "shake" command in one session - of
course he tends to be a "pawy" dog anyway.
Tanith I gave a gentle shove so her paw came up off the ground and grabbed
her paw and told her what a wonderful dog she was. She pretty quickly
tried *two* paws - I jerked my hands away, gave a push grabbed one paw and
praised.
I tend to be much more physical with Tanith because she is more body
aware. It means something to her when I physically adjust her to what I
want. Oso, in contrast, is much easier to physically manipulate but he
never seems to learn anything from it until he can be induced to do the
act for himself. Thus shaping for him, and "physical prompts" for her.
Am I getting closer?
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
- - - - - - - - -
"Compliance with the law ought never mean circumventing common sense"
nwor...@my-deja.com
"jb" <jba...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> I have a border collie/collie mix, and i didn't have to teach him. I
just
> tossed the ball a few times, and he got the point almost immeditately.
I
> know this doesn't help you, but....well sometimes I brag about him a
little!
hmmmmm, kinda like my Pepper ( a 5 month old black lab)... I bounced a
tennis ball down the sidewalk, he ran after it, grabbed it, and brought
it back for more! shocked the **** out of me!!! FIRST time I have ever
had that happen with any of my dogs...
he doesn't do it EVERY time, but enuff to make think that with some
encouragement later on, he will be great at that game....
the other lab (cinnamon, same age) doesn't pay any attention whatsoever
to the ball <grin>... and I thought she was the smartest?
hmmmm, maybe too smart?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Marshall Dermer
>
>
>Marshall Dermer <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>: In article <3767d8b2$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com> blac...@dog-play.com writes:
>
>:>I used a similar but less complusive process for my dog Oso.
>
>: Hi Diane!
>
>: The method I presented for teaching fetch depends much on physical prompts
>: (or "putting through") whereas the method you presented depends much on
>: shaping.
>
>: The method I posted obviously worked with our German Shepherd/Yellow Lab mix
>: prompts. So, I used a combination of methods with him and they worked!
>
>: Nothing succeeds like success!
>
>Hmmm Ok let's see if I undertand the difference.
>
>When I wanted to teach Oso to "shake hands" I st him, got him just a
>little excited and when his paw came up off the ground I praised him. He
>got praised when his paw went high enough to touch me, and in short order
>I was requiring he touch me to get praised and very shortly after that paw
>had to go in hand. That end up with a "shake" command in one session - of
>course he tends to be a "pawy" dog anyway.
"Getting him excited" can be considered an "operation" that made "raising
paw" more frequent. Then you reinforced succesive approximations to
his shaking your hand. By definition, shaping refers to reinforcing
successive approximations of some final or goal behavior.
>Tanith I gave a gentle shove so her paw came up off the ground and grabbed
>her paw and told her what a wonderful dog she was. She pretty quickly
>tried *two* paws - I jerked my hands away, gave a push grabbed one paw and
>praised.
"Giving a gentle shove" can be considered a "physical prompt." By definition,
a "physical prompt" involves guiding appropriate body parts so as
to produce the appropriate movement. Then you offered reinforcement.
>I tend to be much more physical with Tanith because she is more body
>aware.
Hm? You probably use physical prompts with Tanith because it works. That
is your behavior with respect to Tanith is reinforced by Tanith learning
the behavior. Here we have a case of dog conditioning trainer's training
procedures. This, of course, is always the way it works. In our basic
research labs, we have rats and pigeons conditioning researchers's design
of research procedures. ;-)
>It means something to her when I physically adjust her to what I
>want. Oso, in contrast, is much easier to physically manipulate but he
>never seems to learn anything from it until he can be induced to do the
>act for himself. Thus shaping for him, and "physical prompts" for her.
Yep! You are doing a great job Diane which is what I would expect
from someone who has offered such excellent advice here and who
has established such a useful web site (readers see URL below).
Best wishes to Denise and all the other Blackmans!
--Marshall
>Am I getting closer?
>
>Diane Blackman
>di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
>- - - - - - - - -
>"Compliance with the law ought never mean circumventing common sense"
I have listed below, in rank order, ( 1 = "The Best") my favorite
sources.
1. Overall, K. L. (1997). _Clinical behavioral medicine for small
animals._ St.Louis: Mosby
Professor Overall has earned many degrees (MS, VMD, PhD) and is
certified by the Animal Behavior Society as an Applied Animal
Behaviorist.
2. Diane Blackman's Fun with Your Dog:
Diane has compiled "tons" of information about dogs. This work in
progress reveals Diane's tremendous love and respect for dogs.
http://www.dog-play.com/
3. Prof.Mark Plonsky's Fabulous Site:
Mark's site has won numerous awards. It is VERY complete.
http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm
4. Frequently Asked Questions
Cindy Tittle Moore has written the "classic" Usenet source for
information about pets.
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/noframe.html
5. Karen Pryor's Web Site:
Discover clicker training and training resources. Clicker training is a
positive approach!
Also check out this URL for more on clicker training:
http://www.superdog.com/clicker.htm
6. Gary Wilkes's Click & Treat Web Site:
Much excellent training information.
http://www.clickandtreat.com/petproj.htm
7. Wisconsin Public Radio's "Calling All Pets":
Find out when and where this excellent program is broadcast.
http://www.wpr.org/pets/index.html
8. Denver Dumb Friends League:
Many helpful essays about pet ownership, care, and training.
9. Dog Training Keepers
Helix Fairweather compiles an extensive collection of valuable
links that keeps on growing.
http://www.teleport.com/~helix/Keeper
10. Dog Owner's Guide
Nature's Recipe presents over 200 articles related to nearly
every aspect of dog care, training, and ownership.
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/guide.html
11. Buying and Raising a Puppy
_Good Dog Magazine_ helps you start off and, perhaps, subscribe.
http://www.prodogs.com/dmn/gooddog/page31.htm
12. Maltese Only
Jay and Bev Bianco's automated site presents loads of information
about Maltese. I like this site because my dog is long-haired
and the site offers many grooming tips.